From Travel Ball to Pro Ball: Former All-Star on What Parents Need to Know

Summary

Podcast Summary: Most Valuable Agent with Matt Hannaford

Episode: From Travel Ball to Pro Ball: Former All-Star on What Parents Need to Know
Air Date: September 17, 2025
Host: Matt Hannaford
Guest: Derek Norris (Former MLB All-Star Catcher)

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Overview

This episode features Derek Norris, a former major league catcher and All-Star, as he and agent Matt Hannaford deliver a candid, detailed conversation about the arc from youth travel baseball to professional ball. They discuss how the game—and industry—has changed, what young players (and their parents) need to understand about the business of baseball, development philosophies, the realities of the MLB draft process, mental challenges, and the importance (and limits) of coaching. Throughout, Norris shares not only his own journey but also advice for today’s athletes and families navigating the path to college and pro ball.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The Modern Catcher and Evolution in Baseball

[00:37 - 04:35]

• Changing Mechanics in Catching:
  Norris discusses modern catching techniques, like dropping to one knee or glove movement, expressing skepticism. He finds some current techniques inefficient, particularly given today's harder pitching and trends like the electronic strike zone.

  “You can't convince me that we drop our glove all the way to the ground in a game where we're pitching at elevation more than ever.”
  – Derek Norris (B) [03:00]

• Imitation at the Youth Level:
  Youth players imitate MLB stars but lack context, leading to overemphasis on certain flashy mechanics. Norris stresses that pros’ habits cannot simply be copied by younger athletes because “you’re starting where they started at 30, you’re 12.” (B) [04:00]

• Role of Social Media and Gadgets:
  Technology and social media spread new ideas rapidly, sometimes leading to quick fixes and gadgets that lack true developmental value.

2. The MLB Draft Reality & Lessons for Families

[05:26 - 15:46]

• Draft Process Memories:
  Norris recounts being noticed by scouts after a standout game in high school. The sudden scout attention and in-home meetings showed him the pro path was real, not just a “pipe dream.”

• Negotiation Mind Games:
  Norris’s father set his signing number; teams would try to wear them down. The emotional pressure on young draftees to take less money than they planned is immense.

  “Players ultimately talk themselves into a number lower because... they can't quite rationalize on the table now that I can say yes to this.”
  – Matt Hannaford (A) [12:26]

• The Role of Agents and Advisors:
  Having a third party handle negotiations removes emotion and adds protection in a process that “isn't personal, it’s business.” This is difficult for families—particularly parents—who feel an emotional stake in decisions.

• “They’re Playing Chess, We’re Playing Checkers”:
  Norris notes teams are highly skilled at saving bonus pool money and allocating it across their draft classes, reinforcing the idea that prospects need savvy advocates.

3. College Decision-Making: Campus Life, Scholarships & Fit

[16:54 - 22:13]

• Choosing a College, Visits & ‘The Pitch’:
  Norris recounts his college recruiting journey, official visits, and how close he was to committing to Arkansas, only to have circumstances change suddenly (scholarship availability).

• Value of Fit & Relationships:
  Ultimately, Norris chose Wichita State, influenced by friendships, local ties, and a feeling of comfort. The experience highlighted the emotional rollercoaster and opportunism inherent in the recruiting landscape.

• Conference Power Shift:
  Today, the SEC dominates college baseball, affecting where top players gravitate and the competitive balance.

4. Transition to Pro Ball: Humbling Realities & Everyday Competition

[22:22 - 31:32]

• First Days in Pro Ball:
  Culture shock: sharing a hotel room with a Latin American player, language barriers, and no longer being the local star. The lesson? Everyone’s now “the best,” regardless of pedigree or bonus.

• Development Demands:
  Intensive and repetitive instructional league work toughened Norris up. He describes grinding through “13 shopping carts” worth of blocking drills daily, learning the craft through sheer repetition.

  “If it was blocked like one that kicks off is unacceptable. Drops were not acceptable.”
  – Derek Norris [29:04]

• Big Leaguers Aren’t Perfect:
  Youth see major leaguers make errors but may not understand the context—stars get more leeway for mistakes if they contribute offensively.

5. Defensive & Mental Growth: Game Calling, Relationships with Pitchers

[31:33 - 38:17]

• Game Calling Challenges:
  Learning to call a game at the highest level is an “never-ending evolution.” Norris references learning from veteran pitchers and the importance of psychological confidence.

• The ‘Caddy’ Role:
  Building relationships with pitchers and learning their tendencies takes time, especially tough in platoon systems. Everyday players develop more rapport, an advantage Norris noticed after his trade to San Diego.

6. The Business Side & The Rise of Platooning

[35:38 - 40:38]

• Platooning in Oakland:
  Norris explains the emotion and frustration of being a platooned player—playing time didn’t always match performance, and strategy sometimes trumped feel.

• Johnny Gomes’ Advice on Pinch Hitting:
  A mentorship moment: Gomes taught Norris to be aggressive as a pinch hitter—a different approach than being patient as an everyday regular.

  “If you go up there and you wait, these guys are too good. If you give them one, you’re decreasing your odds by half.”
  – Johnny Gomes via Norris [38:17]

7. Trends, Imitation, and the Lost Art of Fundamentals

[40:38 - 44:12]

• Teams Chasing Trends:
  Norris and Hannaford discuss how the industry copies whatever strategy most recently worked (e.g., using relievers as starters), sometimes to a fault.

  “This industry is so incestuous. Everybody is trying to recreate the success that this team that just won the World Series had before.”
  – Matt Hannaford [40:38]

• Devaluing Fundamentals:
  As teams heavily focus on data and new tactics, vital “game within the game” skills like bunting, moving runners, and base running have diminished.

8. The Mental Game & Identity Crisis in Player Development

[44:12 - 66:29]

• Why Talented Prospects Wash Out:
  Tools and bonuses guarantee opportunity, not results. Some organizations lack true development plans; players unused to failure can spiral if not supported.

  “It’s not the ability that separates you. It's what you do with your ability and how well you can execute it and simply stay within the confines of who you are.”
  – Derek Norris [77:51]

• ‘Being On Time’ and Hitting Mentality:
  Norris shares two controllable variables for hitters: "Start on time and swing at a good pitch." Over-focusing on mechanics can spiral into mental traps and slumps.

  “If you get started on time and you swung at a good pitch, those two things are the only two things you control.”
  – Derek Norris [47:14]

• Role of Coaches/Advisors:
  Coaches can help, but ultimate accountability and self-awareness—knowing who you are as a player—matters most. Norris cautions against searching for quick fixes, especially in-season.

  “No one reaches out when they're scorching hot… We only want to nitpick when we don't do things right.”
  – Derek Norris [50:18]

• Technology, Gadgets & Swing Changes:
  While metrics and technology have value (Norris uses tools like TrackMan), simple drills, repeatability, and gradual change are the foundation, not ‘miracle’ devices or major overhauls during a season.

• Emotional Crutches vs. Real Progress:
  Players (and parents) often chase mechanical fixes for emotional reassurance, but most performance issues are rooted in mental or timing lapses.

• Major League Mindset:
  The very best separate themselves by finding identity, adapting, and focusing on their strengths, not by imitating stars or chasing numbers.

9. What the Game Needs: Return to Attention to Detail

[70:36 - 80:11]

• Call for Fundamentals:
  Norris believes MLB needs a renewed emphasis on “attention to detail”—moving runners, situational hitting, base running, holding runners. Overemphasis on home runs and stat lines has overshadowed these essentials.

  “More guys get thrown out on bonehead mistakes than ever right now... So many things have gotten more lax.”
  – Derek Norris [71:31]

• Game Within the Game:
  Sacrifice flies, bunting, and two-strike approaches have become rare. Norris laments their disappearance—“the game within the game that made it the game I love has completely dissipated.” [75:06]

• Personal Coaching Philosophy:
  Norris aims to help players—whether in high school or AAA—find the best version of themselves, not copy others or chase trends.

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

On Catching Evolution:

“It's difficult for me to try and tell a kid, hey, this is really crappy because you're 14, they're 30. It's a stepping stone.”
— Derek Norris [03:40]

On The Draft and Negotiation:

“We're emotionally driven for the opportunity. Not to look at the value. So we're playing checkers, they're playing chess.”
— Derek Norris [12:44]

On Mental Side of Hitting:

“Timing approach—what we're looking for. Thinking the game of baseball and not guessing the game of baseball.”
— Derek Norris [47:05]

On Fundamentals in Today's MLB:

“At the end of the day, starters went back into the starting role, relievers went back in the relieving role. It's... just a kick away from having all relievers. Starters will be obsolete.”
— Derek Norris [41:29]

On Attention to Detail:

“The attention to detail in moving runners, getting guys in, going back to almost like pick off moves... has completely dissipated.”
— Derek Norris [70:52]

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Timestamps for Important Segments

• Catching evolution & technology: 00:37 – 04:35
• Norris’s Draft process & negotiation tips: 05:26 – 15:46
• College selection & recruiting realities: 16:54 – 22:13
• Shock entering pro ball & development grind: 22:22 – 31:32
• Mentality of platooning, pinch hitting tips: 35:38 – 40:38
• Why tools alone don’t get you to the bigs: 44:12 – 46:47
• Two controllable variables for hitters: 47:05 – 50:36
• In-season swing coaching philosophy: 57:34 – 59:55
• Attention to detail and MLB fundamental decline: 70:52 – 80:11

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Takeaways for Players, Parents, and Coaches

• The pro path is both business and a psychological marathon.
• Players need advocates (agents, advisors, mentors) to navigate negotiations and organizational strategies.
• Chasing mechanics or quick fixes—especially under emotional stress—often leads away from true improvement.
• Baseball success at each level requires evolving your own identity and steady attention to detail, not just imitation of MLB stars or viral trends.
• “Being on time” and swinging at good pitches remains the most actionable, reliable advice for hitters at any level.
• Teaching the game means helping athletes realize and refine who they are, not turning them into copies of others.

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For any baseball family, this episode is required listening for honest, nuanced insights into the journey from amateur ball to the professional ranks, and what it really takes to succeed—both on the field and in the mental battles beyond it.

Transcript

[A]

All right, so I have the privilege of talking to a legend in the game, a man who I was fortunate enough to represent, a man who I've gotten to know over the last. So we got you out of the Arizona Fall League when you were in double A in 2011. Exactly.

[B]

And Tony Tarrasco.

[A]

Tony Tarrasco, exactly. Tony T. Derek Norris. So Derek, you just to give everybody an idea if they don't know, obviously major league catcher, major league all star and currently you are somebody who is in what I would call kind of that youth travel baseball space as and I'm not even going to put you in a box but to give these people an idea of like your perspective, you're somebody who has taken your skill sets as a player and really tried to figure out how do I, how do I pour into kind of the next generation. And you're. You work with hitters, are you working with any catchers? Are you working on.

[B]

I do.

[A]

From a defensive standpoint, I do.

[B]

But unfortunately with a lot of the different things they do receiving wise now with the knee and the glove drop, I, I don't care for it. I don't think it's really efficient and so it's, it's tough for me to teach that but given the right circumstance of the individual, I, I, it's something that I, unfortunately I know a lot about and I will teach it, but only if approached with like them coming to me that I'm not going to seek out like catching camp or anything like that. That it's, it's so much different than when I was taught very traditional and, and efficiency was number one that with electronic strike zones and everything that we're dealing with.

[A]

Yeah. With the ABS system coming like it's, we're in a world where like the catching position, if just you look at the last 10 years, it's vastly changed.

[B]

And I don't think it's more efficient because anytime there's a ball outside of our right shoulder that we don't block anymore, it just goes to the backstop.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

That was not acceptable for me that anything past you was a pass ball, whether it was wild pitch or not.

[A]

Well, and I do think with the data that's available now, a lot of times people think the way that it's being done now is the right way. But you could make the argument that I mean even with the swing on some level, like it's an evolution we'll eventually learn at some point over a period of years if the knee drop and some of these other Things actually does get the result that they're all hoping it gets.

[B]

And I think all of us have dropped to a knee at some point for some type of rest or you know, fatigue, stamina. But overall, you can't convince me that we, we drop our glove all the way to the ground in a game where we're pitching at elevation more than ever. Yeah, that, that why are we dropping the extra foot whenever we're asking for a high fastball? That pitchers, they're throwing max effort, not efficiency. That the last time I saw a paint down and away fastball target was probably three years ago. That it's either middle high or it's a breaking ball or off speed somehow. But. And it's the evolution of where pitchers are at that we're throwing harder. We, the technology of moving the arm faster. It's, it's more than ever that they don't care if they miss their location because they believe that they can just blow it past you. Where you're starting to see the repertoire of pitchers kind of change, that they're going to more sinkers and different things. I think it's no different than any sport that it has its modern evolution, tweaks, but somehow, some way, I think everything kind of reverts back to kind of the fundamentals, traditional standards of the sport. But it's just, it's difficult for me to try and tell a kid, hey, this is really crappy because you're 14, they're 30. They have 12 more years of experience and feel and whatever you want to call that, that they can do these things that you can't get to yet. It's a stepping stone because no different than some of the teacher man stuff that's destroyed all swing path of everything to try and get the ball in the air. If we're unable to hit the ball over the fence, we're just hitting flyball, the outfield type of stuff. So it's like you see the pinnacle of people on TV do these things. We want to be them. Everyone's imitated Mark McGuire, Barry Bonds and Sammy Sosa at some point. Us growing up, they're simply just following what they see. But what they don't understand is those guys simply had to start from somewhere too. And that you're starting to where they're starting at 30, you're 12.

[A]

Yeah, it's tough when, when and it is, it's. It's cyclical. Like these aren't what you did as a kid. Looking at the guys in the big leagues.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Is no different than what they're doing now as kids. Looking at guys in the big leagues.

[B]

Simply just the addition of technology and social media that they're. They're able to get to it quicker, faster and more often. That and right now in society, people can come up with a swing thought and portray it, and all of a sudden they make a weird gadget and they make millions of dollars off of it. And it's not their fault. They're simply just trying to do what they think will help. There's no such thing as a evolutionary quick fix to all of a sudden being good at hitting and. Or catching. It's something that comes with repetition and process. Years and years of dedication of work that if there was, I would have been a lot better. And I think overall the game would be a lot more equal than it is.

[A]

So you were drafted at a high school?

[B]

Yep.

[A]

Going through, like. Take us back to when you were going through that draft process. Did you. Leading into the draft and call like a year before the summer before, you know, we're at the area code games, obviously we talked about you going to the area code games. Did you. Did you see pro ball as a realistic and viable option? Or was it like that's a pipe dream? Like, I'll believe it when I see it, but I'm really getting geared up for college.

[B]

You know, it until some 18 years ago when I was here. The exposure to showcases is. Is so much more broad now that this was truly the pinnacle of everything. Like everything anyone knew about if you can make area codes was the thing to go to up until that point. It was mainly college that I started to get some pro, you know, mail and stuff and nothing of too extreme to where there was. It was enough to get some people to come watch me play high school the next spring. And then I had one double header where I went off, and it went from three guys there to 30 the next game. It was one day, one double header. I'm like seven for seven, like three.

[A]

Was that in the summer or was that spring?

[B]

High school, My senior year.

[A]

Senior year.

[B]

Okay, so there was a couple guys that kind of came around from time to time, but one double header and all of a sudden they were there every game after that, which we only get 20, so it wasn't too many days. But after that point, it kind of started to hit me that it was a little more in reach. And then as we progressed, we got closer. The whispers of, you know, what's your slot value, whatever, and those are pretty detailed questions to ask Somebody, it's not like, hey, if we draft you, would you sign? It's no, it's, what is your number? This is where we project you at. And just to get a feel for that, at the time it was kind of like, like, damn, that's a very specific question. They must be looking at me in this type, different demographic. And for me, it was never about money value. It was more so looking at a guy in the eye and seeing his level of interest. And who is he bringing around? Is it an area scout that's from Witcha, or is he bringing in a cross checker or scouting director? Which is what led me to sign with Washington is I got Bob Boone and Dana Brown, who's now the GM for the Astros, in my basement trying to convince me to sign. Like, I don't know. As if they take those steps for everybody. And not that I was anything special, but they were that adamant trying to get me signed that they, they took the links of coming to the middle of nowhere.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

To try and sign me. So that was more so for me. What, what made me interested in the pro scene.

[A]

Well, and you got drafted obviously in mid 2000s, 2007, right? Yeah. Were you drafted having already agreed to a deal or was that something where they drafted you and then Dana and Bob came in after they took you to negotiate?

[B]

My dad was actually kind of acting as my agent, so to speak, that he came up with a number of X amount that he thought was satisfactory. After that point, teams were calling through these first couple rounds, we reached a point where that number was no longer in the slot. So I actually went outside with my buddies, like, okay, I guess we're going to Wichita State. My mom came out five minutes later and said, hey, Washington just drafted the fourth round.

[A]

Oh, so you didn't even, you didn't.

[B]

You didn't even hear get called, did nothing? Yeah, like six teams called me.

[A]

So did your dad tell them before they took you that you had signed for this number or was it.

[B]

Yeah, anybody that had spoken to my dad, they knew that this was the number.

[A]

It had to be this.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

And shout out to Russell, the muscle for. For taking care of that.

[B]

And then the scout that went to all these links actually would come throw bp and he's telling my dad, you know, can we get him at this number? And just trying to sweat it out. So he called the big dogs in. So Bob Boone and Dana flew in to convince. I guess my dad needed convincing and he said simply telling them, no, no, no, this is the number this is the number, like just no back and forth in our, my parents basement, you know, So I went into my bedroom with my mom and dad and dad's like, you're not signing? And when did this become your decision and not ours collectively? He goes, it's not enough money for you. I said again. And after that I walked back out there, signed the paper and it was done.

[A]

Wow. Yeah, I didn't know that.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Russ was just trying to protect you.

[B]

No, he was just being a dad.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

That he didn't do anything ill mannered. He was simply just looking after, trying to look after his version of my best interests. And as soon as it became a decision that he made and no longer a conversation, simply just told me that was the route I wanted to take, not out of spite, simply because I saw the interest. I got a 10 time gold glove winner in my basement telling me that they would make it worth my while. I don't think he does that a lot. Yeah, number one, it's a little beneath him that he's probably got better stuff to do than go to the middle of nowhere in farmland to convince a guy to come play.

[A]

Yeah. It's interesting. The draft process has changed so much.

[B]

It has.

[A]

I had, you know, know Mauricio Dubon, current big league Houston Astros. Yeah. So he's a client of mine and similarly, I got him in the minor leagues, I didn't have him out of the draft. And he told this story on the podcast where, you know, he told teams, I'm trying to remember, I think he said his number was like $500,000.

[B]

Right. That's exactly what my dad said.

[A]

So it's interesting. So he tells teams $500,000 and sure enough, team calls him and says, hey, we don't have 500,000, we have 300,000. And so mind you, they had asked him, what do you want to take? He says, 500. All right, I'll call you back. Calls him back, we don't have 500, we have 300. He goes, okay, I'll take 300. Hangs up, calls him back, we don't have 300. We've got 150. Like, and. And it got to a point where it was like, you got to be kidding me. And so sure enough, it keeps getting lower and lower. Guy calls him back and says, we don't have 150, we've got 50. And he goes, no shot. Like it's at least got to be 75. And he ended up sign it for $75,000. And I tell that story, because, you know, and not to say that every parent or advisor is like, going to make the biggest difference, and it. They're going to ensure that your son's going to get drafted and paid accordingly. But the layer of protection that you have when you have somebody looking out for you, it is truly helpful because as a player, what, what tends to happen is a player goes through the draft and he. It's such an emotional time, no doubt, that to think in that moment, what's the decision? I mean, it's. It's kind of like Monopoly money.

[B]

If you were to remove yourself from the situation in the moment is impossible.

[A]

Right?

[B]

Yeah, well.

[A]

And it's Monopoly money. So. And this is what I tell families leading up to the draft, we can talk about the number that you would take and the number that you wouldn't take. And let's just say for argument's sake, using 500. Okay. Your lowest number you would ever consider is 500. I go through this exercise with these families where I'm like, all right, I'm going to test you. Would you take 450 team calls, 450s on the table. You said you'd take five, right? You wouldn't take 450. Well, maybe I would take 450. Okay. Would you take 425?

[B]

Such an astronomical number. What's 50 grand? 50 grand's a lot of money.

[A]

So that's what starts to happen.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And so it's, it's going through this exercise, and what I've realized is players ultimately talk themselves into a number lower because again, they can't quite rationalize on the table now that I can say yes to this. And if I say yes, I get to sign. It's like, well, for 50 grand, I'll do it.

[B]

Because we're emotionally driven for the opportunity. That's right. Not to look at the value. So we're playing checkers, they're playing chess.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

You know, and I think that for me, an agent can't necessarily get you more money is simply them knowing how to play the game of back the back and forth. Yes, that's right. They're not. And it's not that for an officer, it's not that they're crooks. They're simply just trying to pinch money so they can maybe sign a guy over slot that they drafted in the 17th round that they can get as a steal instead of, you know, convincing him not to go to college. Whatever it is, it's a business. It's not anything personal. But again, it's like they're. They're doing their job. We need somebody on our side to simply do theirs to counter it. That you can't expect somebody that's a mechanic to all of a sudden build an airplane, you know, that's working on cars all day long. You're not going to ask him to all of a sudden do something that's outside of his means of what you. You're doing.

[A]

Yeah. You know, so, funny enough, so we're at the area code games next week. Is the Perfect Game All American. I'm actually speaking at the Perfect Game All American. And I was thinking about, you know, what is the topic that I want to talk to these families? The players aren't there. It's just the. The families. What's the topic that I want to talk to all these families about who are going to be draft eligible next year and what I landed on. And I'll tell you the first point, which I'm actually going to do a podcast on this. But the first point that I wanted to convey to these families is it's not personal to the team. It's business.

[B]

Y.

[A]

And as much as you're going to try to make it not personal, it will still be personal.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Because as a parent, this is my boy.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

How can it not be personal?

[B]

Yep.

[A]

And that dynamic, when it plays itself out, can be really, really challenging. So when you talk about a third party, an advisor, somebody who is helping you see things, it's not that this person is the Kool Aid that's gonna. You're gonna drink and everything's gonna work out.

[B]

Yep.

[A]

But it's somebody that you're entrusting your career in to where they are looking out and ensuring that, look, my job is to do what you want. And so if you're telling me you're not gonna sign for less than $500,000, then I need to help make sure that you don't, if that's what you mean. If it's lower.

[B]

499 is 2 is not enough.

[A]

That's right. Then we need to have that conversation. And so I love that you said it's not personal. You've learned that not necessarily going through the draft. You learned that because you worked your way through the minor leagues. You got to the big leagues. We went through the arbitration process.

[B]

And I'd be lying to anybody if I told you that I wasn't emotionally pissed off when all those things were transpiring. That it. It is. It is demeaning when somebody says, oh, well, we're not going to pay you that much. Like what do you mean I'm a great player? Well no, because you had six basketballs. That's got to be what, 10 grand a passport all of a sudden that because I was an all star in my non plateau year that it's not worth as much as this year just because of timing. Like I was still there. But I mean it's all simply just a back and forth game that they're looking at it more as they're not trying to talk necessarily convince somebody that you stink. They're simply just running a business on how to control millions of dollars.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And that if they can maybe save 500 here, here and here that all of a sudden now they can afford a Paul Skins that they're trying to maybe make a push for whatever the circumstances that I think overall I played for probably two of the most penny pinching organizations at the time that looked at things of value more than they did of character or a clubhouse guy. Like Oakland and Tampa don't go out and get Clubhouse guys for 10 million a year. You know, they're going out to get people that they can piece together to somehow justify not going out and getting a unrestricted free agent for 50 million. That they can piece together four guys and try and recreate them somehow.

[A]

Right.

[B]

That they've made movies and gave credit out to how they can reinvent the process of how they can recreate Jason Giambi on the field. Like.

[A]

Right.

[B]

Sooner or later. Like yeah, you can probably justify in regular season but I think as anyone knows the guys that play every day are the guys holding the trophy at the end, not the part time players that are are back and forth. Because there's one game this game's always hold sturdy on is consistency and if you're not in there consistently enough, you don't get consistent results.

[A]

That's right. So a lot of my listeners are you know, parents of like the youth, youth age kids, kids and they're really interested in obviously the college process. So talk to us a little bit about when you were making the decision on committing to Witchita State. Obviously you know you're from Godard, Kansas, right. Outside of of Witchita. What were, what were like Give me three of like the most important things for you as you were evaluating the college process. Like what other schools were interested.

[B]

How did you evaluate it at that time? We didn't quite tap into everyone having these five star facilities of indoors quite yet. That that was still fairly new. That I actually took an official visit them, I think I only took three was down to Arkansas and they had just finished the stadium. And I was, I was wooed. I loved it there. Loved everything about it was about this close from being like, yeah, I'm in. And if it wasn't for my mom and dad going with me down there, which I wasn't a huge fan of, I probably would have emotionally probably committed in the moment. And I'm glad I didn't because they end up signing a guy that they didn't think they had a shot at. In between me leaving the their campus and getting back home. Like three or four days span, they assigned this kid and went from come on in, we can't wait for you to get here to hey, we only have half a scholarship left. Like, why didn't that dude get the half scholarship? Why, like why am I getting the shaft? And that's what drove me away from that. And it wasn't that Wichita State wasn't good enough, but they were that like they wowed me that much with the. Between the restaurants we went to, we went to football game. The. Just the way they made me feel like I don't have to go to official visit to Wichita State for that. There's nothing there.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Like it's the. The big campus feeling was different for me because I only knew Wichita State. Like they don't know football. No. Nothing. Like if you go there, you're baseball or you're a bowler. Right. Like so yeah, I always dreamed of. Wichita State was always, you know, a powerhouse. Like they didn't know anything but winning for the longest time. And at the end of the day it's not that it was second place but like getting back home and understanding like, well, that everyone is just kind of out for themselves. That they didn't actually care for me that much. They give everyone that same treatment that it kind of made me feel like, well, your whole life you've wanted this. Maybe we just go with that.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And at that point I had played with three or four guys here on my area code team that were already committed there. We had like a top five recruiting class. My best friend was going there. It just kind of made sense. It felt right. Yeah.

[A]

Yeah. I think a lot of times when, when players make a decision whether it's right after the official visit or not, there is something to be said for. I can't put words around it but.

[B]

Like there's a reason why we have.

[A]

Right. Yeah.

[B]

Right. They're not bringing you in just to simply show you around, they're wanting to make you emotionally driven to make a commitment on the spot because back then it actually meant something. And now we can. No, I'm just kidding. I'm not coming there. And we can just transfer in and out. So that part's changed. But, like, I feel as though that when you committed somewhere, it was like that was. You spent time thinking about it, that it wasn't something you could do as a freshman one year and it has to wait till your junior year and then they change it two years later. Like, it was always structured as. Like this time is when you sign, you take your official visits here. And it was something that you took your time on because it meant something, you know, and. But yeah, Arkansas was very tempting. Extremely.

[A]

Was there. Was there. What with the other schools or. I guess you took three visits, so Wichita, Arkansas, and then I actually never.

[B]

Went as an official visit to Wichita. I actually took one down to Oklahoma State. Family, friends are always big fans of Oklahoma State. Frank Anderson was the head coach at that time. Great track record. They were building new facilities at that time, the new ones that they have now. And that was kind of an emotional one, too. But I wanted to go to Arizona State. My parents wouldn't let me. Rightfully so, I'm sure.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

But I didn't really take too many official visits.

[A]

I honestly, taking three visits, I feel like, is a perfect number. Sometimes kids, you know, they'll take five, they'll take eight. It's. It's like it becomes so hard at that point, I think, to really evaluate.

[B]

Where it's at now. We're so emotionally driven to go to one conference and one conference only because it's. It's head over heels above everybody else as far as the talent level, what, what they're getting money wise, conference wise, like up and down. Even in softball, basketball, football, Big Ten competes here and there. But overall, like, the SEC is the place to go. If you're looking for somewhere, that's where you go. Like, that's the pinnacle of collegiate athletics right now. And if it were me all over again, I probably would pick Arkansas simply because now Wichita State's no longer the powerhouse.

[A]

Right.

[B]

They're more Oral Roberts than they are. Yeah. Blue blood.

[A]

No, it's a good point.

[B]

And so that, that, that portion of it, if, if it were me now, I would definitely have gone with that route, but it wasn't that drastic at that time. So, I mean, it's just. It really has changed a whole lot. Nope. Not just the rules, but really just where it's segregated so bad to where it's like you sign a four billion dollar TV contract like, no, Wichita State can't compete with that. Cox Cable in Wichita.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

You know, it's just. It's unfortunate, but it is. It is what it is. Once they opened up the floodgates of that, they weren't going to be able to control it.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

I mean, so.

[A]

So when you got into pro ball, you're signing, they send you off two weeks. Did you get to a place where. When you got to pro ball, it like set in, where it's like, oh, you know, I knew it was gonna be different, but I, I just like, I now see how when I opened.

[B]

When I opened my hotel room door and it was a Latin guy in my room.

[A]

Right. And probably didn't speak much English, if.

[B]

Any, said hello, and he looked at me like I spoke hieroglyphics. Yeah.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

I didn't know how to communicate with him.

[A]

Wow. Was he a pitcher?

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Yeah. Because they're like a catcher pitcher. Let's put these two guys together.

[B]

Yep.

[A]

Yep. How was, how was the development? Was it a drastic thing to see at first? When.

[B]

When.

[A]

Because I think what happens is kids in high school, they're the best in their area.

[B]

No doubt. Yep.

[A]

You obviously get drafted and everybody tells you, hey, pro ball's a different level. Everybody's going to be good. But really, when you get to the pro level, it doesn't matter what level that is. You could be in the AZL or the gcl, the lowest level. And everybody that you're surrounded by is also the best kid in their area.

[B]

No doubt.

[A]

And everybody, on some level, you know, there's money invested in certain players. Certain players, whether you think that they have the skill set or not, certain players have more opportunity than others.

[B]

No doubt.

[A]

And so you have to figure out, okay, I have to. I have to put myself in a position where I am getting better every single day. I am, regardless of the opportunity. Like, there could be another catcher who literally is playing four days a week and you're playing two. And I gotta figure something out with this. Like, I don't have the luxury of, like, there's no excuses.

[B]

No. There's no starting job given. You simply the next guy's right behind you. And if there's not, they're gonna draft him because it's not about that. It's not about filling a roster spot in Double A.

[A]

Right.

[B]

They're developing a system because at some point you're going to hit the Skids. And they need somebody that's going to be right up you to keep you going.

[A]

So, so speak mentally. What was that like when you first got into Pro Bowl?

[B]

For me, it was. It was a little bit overwhelming. I hadn't had much experience catching that level of speed. So in Kansas high school baseball, not the fastest pitching that I'd ever seen. I'd never seen a 90 mile an hour slider. I'd seen a handful of guys throw 90 plus, just period that. I was a little exposed defensively. I didn't catch much in rookie ball and just had me DH because I was a little raw. So when I got into instructional league was where it hit me the most. And instructional league is simply spring training. And then you go play a game with no end. Everyone that's lined up to pitch pitches and you could play 9, 11, 13, 15 innings if need be. I didn't play any games. So at lunchtime I'd go back out with the catching coordinator and he'd feed balls through the machine while they were playing the entire game. About 13 shopping carts was my record for one day.

[A]

And was that just.

[B]

Just receiving, blocking, footwork, buns, wild pitches, whatever you, whatever facet of catching is. Whatever it was do.

[A]

Hold on. Do you. Because I think this could be great for them to hear. Do you remember the progression? Like we did, you know, 30, just normal receiving.

[B]

And then whenever the cart finished, we switched.

[A]

Oh, wow.

[B]

So whatever they use in the All Star game to throw Home run derby, that's a shopping cart. So whenever you get through it. And he gave me water breaks, it's not like it was.

[A]

That's like 50 balls.

[B]

No more than that.

[A]

No.

[B]

There's probably 80 to 100 in those. Yeah.

[A]

And it's just non stop, non stop every day.

[B]

And not only that, during our practice sessions in the mornings I would have early work and regular work with the other guys and then when they go play games, back up. And you know, at the time I was like, this is, this is, this is not fun at all. Like.

[A]

Yeah. And you're in Florida at the time.

[B]

Yeah. And instructs is six weeks long.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

So it's like you're not going to play any games. What? Like what. What am I doing here? Well, you're going to, you're going to get better. And I was fortunate. Our catching coordinator was. I don't know if I could have asked for not only a better human being, but somebody that took the time to guide me through the process.

[A]

Who was it?

[B]

Bob Henley.

[A]

Oh, yeah.

[B]

And. And he, he grew to be almost a, A father figure and in no favoritism way that he simply would have done it with whomever it was that needed it. Obviously I needed it, but he was my rookie ball manager. And then after that summer, he, he got the job of catching coordinator right after that. So it was. He was my manager to start. He saw where I was at, and then he had the ability to counter it with being my catching coordinator. But yeah, he was not my favorite person for those six weeks.

[A]

Never is. Right.

[B]

And then when I went home, finally, they're like, oh, well, you know, how'd you swing him? I didn't get in at that. Did you?

[A]

But you're obviously swinging in the cage.

[B]

You can do the early work and batting practice and stuff. But I mean, I was there six weeks and didn't play an inning.

[A]

Yeah, I mean, that's crazy.

[B]

Not. Not only is it miserable baseball that they're playing that I had the perspective of, I wish I could just be miserable over there with them because I was by myself. Even if you're over there playing, you're still involved in conversations with coaches. You're still playing. Like, I was literally on field nine with another dude in a machine just getting absolutely torched. And that next spring training when I came back, I was actually able to control speed, velocity, spin.

[A]

Yeah. Like in that short amount of time, you.

[B]

Yeah. I mean, it. I probably got a year and a half's worth of regular reps for your average Joe in six weeks. Because I mean, truly 10,000 plus baseballs in six weeks that I, I didn't want to even look at a mitt.

[A]

Did you do this every day?

[B]

Yeah. No. You don't have any days off in instructs? No.

[A]

I mean, but as far as the receiving work, like, it was literally, you.

[B]

Would pick a couple different, like, aspects of catching that we would focus on for that three plus hours of work. But we would have, you know, shop talk and he would give me a little breather. It wasn't like he was sending me in hell week. I mean, it was work maybe. Like he would know if I was gasp again, get some water, we'll sit down and talk. And then it wasn't necessarily anything specific. Like he truly developed me into like things that he learned. Talk about, he would talk about hitting, we talk about catching, calling a game. Like he was literally almost like he had designed a program for me before I even was in his life. It seemed like he had a great feel for where I was at his Demeanor was perfect. It wasn't all up on me. He was simply, hey, it's not good enough. No balls past you. Ball drops out of your mitt, we start over. I know the bounds now. Ball clanks out of my mitt, I know I gotta start over. Like that type of stuff, that anything that was within my palms being out like this was supposed to be dead in front of me. If it was blocked like one that kicks off is unacceptable. Drops were not acceptable. Like it took that level of commitment for me to get better because if I didn't, no one cares if you know bigly or clank them all the time with this new glove swipe. No one cares. Yeah, for him, start over. That you wouldn't be behind the plate tomorrow if you drop one.

[A]

Well, and it's interesting too, because I think, you know, some of these young players could watch a big league game and yeah, you see guys clank stuff all the time.

[B]

It's become acceptable.

[A]

There's also context that's needed to. Because it's, you know, here you are in the minor leagues, grinding through all this stuff, you know, trying to be a perfectionist on some level with, with your movement. And you see, let's just say even that same year catcher in the big leagues, like, yeah, misplays the ball, whatever. And you almost need to be reminded like, oh yeah, yeah, but go look at who that catcher is. And oh yeah, he hit 30 homers last year. So like there are things that are a little more acceptable.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

At the next level that. And that's where the business starts to come into play.

[B]

Right? No doubt, dude. And what, what he may counter with, you know, attribute wise, that he, he may clank some or he may have a wet noodle for an arm, but the dude receives well. Steals X amount of strikes and he drives in 85 to 100 a year and hits 270. Yeah, they can steal all they want because no one steals anyway. That type of stuff. Yeah, that truly, like, there's not very many guys in this game that can do both, which is being elite catcher and hit like an elite hitter and not just be like, he hits well for a catcher. You know, one of the worst compliments I ever got was, hey, you run pretty well for a catcher. It's like, is that like skinny for a fat guy? Like, what does that even mean? Like, that we're not thought of as efficient baseball players that typically we do one well and the other very unsatisfactory.

[A]

Sure.

[B]

That even some that have done it at times. There's never some that do it for five consecutive years and are truly like, even guys like Yadier, like, he got Gold Gloves because of reputation at times and not because he was just that elite, because he was for such a long time that it was just simply like, he's better than everyone else. So, yeah, give it to him, you know.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

That he. Even at times, he was very unsatisfactory offensively, but still was recognized for how great he really was.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

20 years. So you.

[A]

You mentioned game calling. How big of an adjustment was that for you?

[B]

Never ending evolution of learning that it's. There's not one way to do it. It's subject to some information on their offensive guy. You have to know. Like, for instance, Nolan Arenado in his prime in Colorado, if he's hot, it don't matter what any of that says. You can't throw him anything. Paul Goldschmidt was the same way that if he could be hitting.100 on sliders. Yeah, he's gonna park three of them that night just because he's red hot. That the guy on the mound is a combination between knowing him, what he does well, what he doesn't do well, and kind of feeling out towards looking at swings, looking at patterns, looking at things that you've pitched him in previous at bats. It's all just a. It's a. It's a shot in the dark. I mean, you could throw 27 fastballs right down the middle and throw a perfect game in theory. But it's looked at a little more intently because it's like, oh, I hung a slider. I probably should have thrown a fastball there. No, you should have just thrown the slider where it should have thrown it. And we're not even having this conversation.

[A]

Right.

[B]

But it's a lot of things that I learned about, you know, how to tunnel and X corners from like, guys like James Shields and then different guys like Ian Kennedy, who would rather throw a fastball away than his secondary pitch of being a breaking ball and hanging it. He would rather give up a homer on his best pitch. Stuff like that, where Shields would rather make up a pitch on the mound than give in. You know, like, just learning from guys like that kind of evolved into just kind of. My theory on things is that these don't really matter if he's not convinced that he wants to execute that pitch like a caddy for a golfer. They do nothing but just carry your golf bag. But they know that, hey, that's. That's the right club for you. You're automatically in a better mindset.

[A]

Sure.

[B]

That psychologically I'm a huge advocate of it. That if you're in the right mindset. Oh yeah, I got this little cut from 160 yards. I stink. But I executed. If I'm convinced that I'm gonna go do it, you're more apt to have success.

[A]

So how much did you feel like as you kind of grew as a catcher, getting into the big leagues and then being a guy who now has got some recognition, the. The role of being that, like reinforcement, I'll call it, with the pitcher, like.

[B]

Letting him know, caddy.

[A]

Right.

[B]

So for sure did.

[A]

At what point did you realize that?

[B]

So because I was in a platoon in Oakland for those few years, I was never given that opportunity to just like, go be. Go be our starting catcher. It was always an influx, always that insecurity. Like, I could go 3 for 3 with three tanks and I'm not in line and I get taken out in a sixth inning because a righty came in. Yeah, like, that part was very difficult for me. And that. Not that it put pressure on me, but I was never truly able to grasp the defensive side with this, the pitchers, because as soon as I could get somewhere with them or have it. Have a good idea where we're at, the dude's coming in and he has no idea what we talked about. So it was kind of odd. So I finally found that when I got traded San Diego, that I actually. When I showed up to spring training, we made a bevy of moves for guys.

[A]

Yeah, you got Kimbrell as the closer. Matt Kemp was there more like six.

[B]

Different hall of Famers potentially come over. And Kimbrell and the Upton brothers, Matt Kemp, James Shields, I mean, we, we brought. I mean, brother might have made as many trades that offseason, I remember.

[A]

And that was like his first year, I think, right? Or first or second.

[B]

No, it was first. He got the job and like two weeks later he did these trades. Yeah, it's crazy.

[A]

And I think Bud Black was your manager, right?

[B]

Yeah, for 60 games. We were 30 and 30. And we found out after we lost to LA in a extra inning game that he was fired the next morning.

[A]

Yeah, I remember this.

[B]

I should be quiet on that. But yeah, when I. When I finally felt as though, like, when pro traded for me, he's like, hey, I've loved you since I was in Texas. Like, I tried to get them to trade for you multiple times. Like, we, like, I really love what you bring to the table. Like, that gave me the comfortability to be like, I'm an everyday player now. Like I don't have to worry about some left handed hitter coming in the sixth inning. Like they're telling me, we want you to be our thoroughbred. We want you to lead our staff, whatever. Short lived for 60 games, but, well.

[A]

Oakland on some level too. Like coming up with Oakland, they were the, the, I guess the, the in a sense they created this whole platoon idea more than anybody.

[B]

So like, you know, it doesn't take you long to figure out like what the theory is. Right. Like we have switch hitters for a reason that. But again, I'm also a firm advocate. Like if you got a dude that's red hot, he's hitting anything from 100 all the way down to 62. It doesn't matter what the matchup is or what their green, their, their sheet that they used. It was truly just red, green and whatever shade in between pitcher here, hit her here, wherever they meet, that's what they decided one day it was white and they didn't know what to do because it was equal. It wasn't green, it wasn't red. And he was like, Chip, I don't know if I should pinch in him or not. I'm like, this is, this is my life. We're talking about two different colors on the spectrum. Yeah, that's what's deciding the fate if I get this that bad or not.

[A]

That's what makes you realize it's a business.

[B]

And again, I get it. I thrived in a platoon role, but it also took me about a year because I didn't know there was a difference in approach between pinch hit and a regular at bat. I was always very passive. If you're passive as a pinch hitter, you're done. I didn't learn that until Johnny Gomes decided to for whatever reason. Went well out of his way to.

[A]

Johnny's the best.

[B]

I don't know what made him latch on. I don't know if it's just my rugged personality that I just didn't give a. That he liked or what, but like he had and even teammates of his that I've never really seen him ever go out of his way to help a, a really young guy that normally he steers clear from him because they piss him off. But I think because he was thrown into that in a time period where he knows what that felt like and he didn't want someone to go on that same path. Similar to what I do now. Sure, I give these kids these little two cents because if I can shorten their learning curve. Whenever I was seeking for that, that's a terrible feeling to have.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Being in the middle of an eight ball season and not knowing if your swing is worth a crap or not and not someone be like, hey, dude, you're just fine. You're just a little bit late. Like, that would have gone so far for me that he, he said, what are you thinking when you go up there and pinch it? I'm like, well, I like to, you know, take a pitch typically to get my, you know, eyes adapted to the flight, how it's coming out that if I swing and I roll over one, I'm really pissed off. He goes, what's the difference between that and the seventh pitch? Well, not that it's still an out. He's like, you got to get there and be aggressive. He goes, by no means is everyone, anyone ever going to be successful pinch hitting or hitting period, that our odds of getting a hit are cut in half.

[A]

Right?

[B]

We pinch it that. He goes, if you go up there and you wait, these guys are too good. If you give them one, you're decreasing your odds by half.

[A]

Exactly.

[B]

And I'm like, it makes sense. But like, how am I ever. He goes, you're just gonna have to go up there with a completely different mindset. He goes, you ever pinch it before in the minor leagues? Well, hell no. I started every game. I played it. And he goes, that's what's, that's what's the problem with it. They expect you to come up here and do something you've never practiced to do. It's no different than you go up there left handed. I'm like, that makes a lot of sense. And then I got my first pinch hit. I was like, I don't think I've ever swung into first pitch of a game, of a first at bat like that ever before. But just little things like that that helped me along and kind of got me. I think I wasn't even hitting my weight at that time. I was on my way to AAA and I hadn't played in a week. And I finally got in that bat and then I got to start the next day. Cause I got a hit right. Like it felt like it'd been a month. But yeah, little things like that kind of went a long ways. That it's, it's not easy playing in a platoon that like, no matter what you do, you ain't playing for a week if there's no lefties. Like, what do you mean? The dude just gonna play every day because 90% of pitchers are right handed. And when you look up at the scoreboard and you see you're hitting.360 but you have 17 at bats, like, it's just, it's tough.

[A]

Better 360 than 160.

[B]

Yeah. But if you're, if you're hitting 160 and playing every day, it's a little bit easier to cope with than like, what do I have to do to get more respect, more opportunities? And they just, they don't believe in that. And that part's tough psychologically that it took someone like Johnny. If it wasn't for him, I probably would have played those couple months and washed up because it was truly that tough for me to wrap my head around is everywhere I've ever been. You bang. Yeah. You playing like. What do you mean not playing? You went three for three. Set the bench.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

What?

[A]

No, it's more common nowadays too because now everybody's followed suit and everybody, platoons.

[B]

I mean, Tigers pretty much are running out the exact same system that we did. And at that part, not that you can't succeed doing that because I think you do target a certain demographic of player while trying to do that, but you don't know they're that type of player until after you've traded or got them in their system, you know, but it, it's definitely how they pick and choose who does that. I'm not sure that I can't imagine that a made up algorithm can simply predict somebody's unpredicted future of. Never done it before.

[A]

Well, no, that's. I think one of the biggest challenges right now is. So I, I've said this a lot, but like, this industry is so incestuous. Everybody is trying to recreate the success that this team that just won the World Series had before.

[B]

And so you see it in a circle. It's like we had a reliever starting campo like for two, two times they did it. Now the next year, every single team's doing. It's like it doesn't take a genius to figure out that the first three hitters of the lineup are probably two, at least three of the top hitters in their lineup.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

It makes sense to start somebody of significance to start the inning and give them the starter the back end to get it is rhythm or whatever. Like why no one ever did it before. Tradition. Yeah, truly. I mean, it's just people try and find different ways to, to beat the curve, but at the end of the day, starters went back into the starting Role relievers went back in the relieving role. That it's for me we're only just a kick away from Julie just having all relievers that starters will be obsolete. Like three innings will be your max because we're so afraid to repeat the order. It's like hitters are hitting lower averages now than I think they ever have.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Collectively. That the elite of the elite are hitting for extremely high averages is because they don't, don't chase. And hitters are. Pitchers are not as efficient as they once were. So they make more mistakes that the elite hit. 330 Judge the Otanis that they skyrocket and everyone else is just kind of bottom dwellers. You know, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's a odd time in the major leagues that they can't make up their minds if they're going to still try and hit home runs.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Or if they're going to adapt, you know, and, and there's a reason why that the, the pinnacle of the elite continue to succeed so much higher than everyone else is because they're not only are they talented, but they don't, they don't chase outside the zone when they make mistakes. They make them pay for it. That other people, when they're trying to hit home runs, they're not making them pay for their mistakes.

[A]

I'm assuming that you saw plenty of guys in the minor leagues and even in the big leagues who, you know, maybe were bonus babies, got drafted high and didn't make it.

[B]

Oh God, yeah.

[A]

What do you think it was about those guys without naming names, but what was it about? What they lacked that in pro ball it's not going to reward. Just like here's a reality when you sign for a lot of money. What it does is it, it guarantees that you're going to get opportunity. But what it's not going to do is guarantee that the money is going to always be more important than the result.

[B]

I think to an extent, I think for the most part a first round pick that's not a complete bust is going to get a big league opportunity to justify them picking them high, especially a top 10 pick.

[A]

And so let's talk about why. So obviously general manager involved in that pick, scouting director involved in that pick, a lot of money invested. So if this guy doesn't make it, the general manager, the scouting director, that's a miss.

[B]

I think it's, it's an ego thing for sure that I don't even know.

[A]

If it's Ego as much as that's a miss. So it's not that I am going to make decisions like here's the reality. I don't think they're like we're going to ignore the result and guarantee he's going to get to the big leagues. But we gave this guy 5 million bucks. We have to do everything in our power to give him the chance to.

[B]

Collectively, they gave so much more to the rest of the draft that if they don't make it, they don't think anything of it. But simply because it's a first round pick or whatever the circumstance like yeah, there's just more five millions pennies on the dollar compared to what you're paying in your, in your.

[A]

Yeah. The rest of the bonus pool.

[B]

Yeah. And not only that, but we're paying your big league team like $5 million is a bench player.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

That comes off the bench. So it's like I, I think for me they take so much pride in their draft that I don't think they do the amount of due diligence when they rec, when they scout these guys. If you're not having the people set in stone to develop them, then you're just simply leading this kid into an abyss because he's never failed before. When he fails, there's certain teams that do it well. For instance the Dodgers, outfielders, pitchers and catchers are three things they develop in the minor leagues emphatically that they take the excess in those prospects and trade for the positions that they don't develop well. They only draft pitchers, outfielders and catchers. They don't even waste their time unless it's a bonafide can't miss like a Corey Seeger or something like that. They'll go out and trade for Trey Turner, Manny Machad auto. They, they've done it for years. That why me people don't do that. More like it's not that there's people that have a heavy impact on collectively a whole minor league system's tough to teach how to hit that some people get exposed because the jump from amateur high school baseball to professional is a massive jump that you go from 80 poo to 98 with a breaker that you've never if you've ever seen that before. If you don't have somebody to simply guide you along that process. Psychologically they're physically able to do these things. I mean it's not that a guy couldn't hit a breaking ball. He couldn't psychologically think fastball, react to the breaking ball because he Couldn't stop thinking about the breaking ball and then he let the heater go. Like now he's starting to spiral and if no one's there to catch you and develop you before too long, you don't know if you're left or right handed. And right. You see it happen with baseball more than anything because it's a mind game. One day you wake up and you feel like you're swinging a sword and you just went four for four the night before. And it just plays mind games with you that if you don't have somebody be like, hey, dude, your swing is fine. Stop hitting so much in the cage. Change your mindset that it's all about your miss. Everyone says it's 99% mental. It's true that your swing doesn't change throughout the course of the season. That we try and think, oh, I missed that pitch because my mechanics, not just timing. When he's throwing 100 miles an hour and you're trying to time them up with two round pieces, it makes sense as to why it's difficult. Like we get so carried away with our mechanics of our swing, which have.

[A]

Because it's controllable, right?

[B]

Like we have our time and place for those things, but those muscle patterns are going to be there that if you move your hands half an inch, it feels like you move them a foot.

[A]

Well, think about this. So as a hitter, I mean, look, all baseball players, you guys are competitive. So if you're a hitter and you're going up to the plate, you could take a really good swing on a pitch, strikeout, you could fly out, ground out, whatever. You could also hit a homer. But let's assume you get out. It's so easy as a competitor to be like, I failed.

[B]

Every one of us are mother effing ourselves. Every out we make full knowing 3 out of 10 times we're in the hall of Fame, right? We all know that going in, right? Simply, that's not good enough. We're chasing a ghost. And because we can't have that is why we're so emphatic on perfectionism. You know, that if, if we went 3 for 10, we're not happy. But yet we're in the hall of Fame. If we reach that in a career aspect of things that if we roll over one fastball, you can't stop thinking about it for three days. Like, we simply, like, that's what we get caught up in. That's what part of it is, is like, I learned after I was done playing that there's two controllable variables that you can control in the game of baseball. If you get started on time and you swung at a good pitch, those two things are the only two things you control. Once it touches your bat, you no longer in control of where it goes. And I wish I knew that when I played because my life would have, I would have destroyed less bat racks and things that would drove me nuts for weeks, that kept me in slumps that I simply like where did my swing go? I'm working on my swing in the cage. It feels good. Why doesn't it translate? It was here, not here. And those things I try and teach is that we calibrate our swing all winter long. You just have to go out and trust it that we focus on more narrow minded things like timing approach what we're looking for. Picking up on patterns, thinking the game of baseball and not guessing the game of baseball. Because once you start thinking where are my hands? Where the strike three is already there. And those things I try and instill on most of my guys. Sometimes we do mechanical things that are wrong and that's simply just to talk you off the ledge so you can go to sleep at night. Right.

[A]

Well, I think the thing that most players do with the bat is if something is happening negatively at the plate, meaning I get out for a repeated period of time, it has to be mechanic.

[B]

We have to blame it on something.

[A]

We need to control it.

[B]

Yep.

[A]

Right.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

There's got to be something I can do to fix this.

[B]

Saying that I just wasn't on time is acceptance. We don't want to accept failure. No matter the circumstance that we fail 7 out of 10 times we're really good. You know. And that part I think is difficult to accept. No different than golf. You can do everything right and still duck hook it into the crap. Just depending on one degree of of change. And baseball's I think because we know we can't reach it, we want it more. And trying to look at specifically on the hitting side. If we start calibrating our brains to looking at success and unsuccessful based upon two variables. We stop chasing hits. And when you chase hits, they avoid you.

[A]

Right. So instead. Okay, let's look at these two variables. Was I on time? No, I was not. Right. Okay, well if I wasn't on time, then why would I expect that I was gonna square this ball exactly that.

[B]

You when your brain recognizes that ball's getting on you, we make physical moves to try and manipulate the barrel to get to the baseball. That if we can justify it as you're one for one. If you swung at a good pitch and we were on time, we're one for one. Keep in a notebook. And at the end of the day, you're going to feel a whole lot better about your at bats. And I think in the end you're going to like where you're at statistically, too.

[A]

So do you have your hitters? Because I know you work for some pro guys. Do you have them for, like, every at bat? Answer the question. Like, yes, I was on time. Yes, I swung at a good pitch.

[B]

I would really love for them to. When we really get down to when we get into, like, little funks, because no one reaches out when they're scorching hot and they're ripping the court, you know, the core off the baseball. Because, I mean, hey, did you like that swing today? Like, yeah. What is there to say about a good swing? We only want to nitpick when we don't do things right.

[A]

But, yeah, when they feel lost, right.

[B]

And everyone's guilty of it, that if something doesn't feel right or we don't have success, we ultimately think we have to work harder towards something. When truthfully, yeah, you just swung a bad pitch, dude, or, hey, he got nasty on you. I don't know who could hit that pitch. That accepting that is just beneath you whenever you're in that competitive mode. That I was the same way that as I got older and I started, you know, thinking about the game a little bit differently and more of a bird's eye view and truly looking back on different things that truly mattered when I had success, where was my success? Well, we calibrate our swing off of a tee for a reason. We're calibrating the exact same swing to hit mistakes. We hit mistakes. Who's a bad ball hitter in the big leagues is Ohtani? Does he hit it off the ground at his face? No, he hits the stuff that's right in the middle of the plate. And the elite of the elite don't miss them. You know why they don't miss them? Because they're on time. That understanding that there are more gifted players than others with strength, leverage, size, all the above bat speed. O', Neal, Cruz and me right now are not going to have the same batting average if we went out there and we were both on time.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

That there are genetic freaks. But also to understand that no matter how genetically blessed they are, they also don't have the understanding of what we're trying to learn here because we don't have that we have to learn other things to try. And then that's the way I had to play. Cause I didn't have an absolute rocket for an arm. I couldn't hit things into a popcorn bucket in the upper deck. Like I had to find these fine tuned things to think about the game differently, study scouting reports, different things that my perspective on how the game was for me. I had to do those things to stay up there with the 6 foot 4 donkey power hitting guys. Because on my best day I hit in the fifth row right. For someone that paid high money for those seats. So I think that's part of the reason why I look at it the way I do is like you don't have to be genetically blessed to be successful at this game. That any given moment the worst player can defeat the best player. And beauty the game of baseball it is and that and it is a beautiful game. But I think we hitting's easy, getting hits is hard. And if we're making swinging a baseball bat harder than it needs to be, we're already defeating ourselves from the very beginning.

[A]

Who taught you those two? Or I guess you said you wish you would have known this when you were playing.

[B]

So nobody.

[A]

So it was just this realization you had after.

[B]

It wasn't like I woke up one day just when I so when I first got out of the game I didn't really have the best of feelings going out. I I through the whole Covid and everything being by myself at my house with nothing going on. I finally started watching baseball again after all that time. A couple years went by and I was like I don't actually want to throw something at the screen whenever I see somebody that I played with that I thought I was better than still getting opportunities that I felt like I deserved because that wore on me for a little while and I finally got over it. But then I started watching the game and I started studying it a lot more. Whether it was kinematically with the body or whether it was weight. Why are people so much more successful than others? Besides the obvious. And it wasn't always a constant that they were genetically more gifted. What do they do? Well, what is on time? What does timing mean? We know kind of a generic version of it. Like when do they do these motions they're mirroring him that we make motions towards each other in similar ways. Like when does that happen? So I just kind of started doing a little more detailed research on we have different stances hitting, but we have one pitching motion. Like why is that? Well, it's for timing that different people like different things to get in certain positions. But at the end of the day, we get into one position, and that's here. How we get there is irrelevant, but when we get there is the relevant part. So I just started researching a little bit more in that I found out the exact time when the elite of the elite get their foot down. Everyone always says, every. Every coach that you ever watch, again, get your foot down, do they ever tell you when to pick it up? Right, because we pick your foot up, it's got to go down. So then I just started looking at, like, any coach that's ever told you get your foot down, you end up getting it down later than you were before because you're focused on when it gets down, not when it picks up. So just little things like that that I started looking at. Like, when do people get on time? Like, when do they actually start? And then when you start at a certain time and you know exactly when you pick your foot up, then it's easier to be on time as opposed to not really knowing. So just really kind of breaking it down and kind of looking at it that way. Then that started to make a little bit more sense that, like, how do we know we're on time if we don't know what on time is? Because our whole life we could have thought we were on time. Until you feel what on time is, and you're like, I haven't been doing this my entire life.

[A]

Well, so what is on time? Like, what's your definition?

[B]

Depending on what type of stance, leg kick, non leg kick, whatever it is, that our. Whatever our separation and our load, we have to be in our furthest point back when we see release, that if the ball's already in flight and we're moving back and then forward, it's too much. So, like, I noticed that whenever, whatever their leg kick trout, whether it was miggy with the toe tap, that whenever their hands separated to get back, we were here. So at that point, we're simply moving towards target and not having to worry about loading back and forth with movement of the head is too much, that the game speeds up on you. That and that part made a lot of sense, that if we can pick up release point with a stable head, now we're able to make an attempt to go at the baseball and not have to worry about anything else other than just one direction.

[A]

Yeah. So do you see? I mean, look, I think there's a difference, right? We were talking about this earlier. You could talk To a kid who's, let's say 11 years old and like they're, they're not at a place with their body that they have the ability to like, manipulate certain things. But do you see kids, you know, 16, 17, 18 years old, where, like, you've actually talked to them about this concept and, and it's resonated.

[B]

Every one of them, really, Every one of my guys that I work with, I teach them the exact same, whether they're in triple A, whether they're in high school, whether in college, whomever it is, that until you show me you can't do these things, I'm going to give you what I would give a major leaguer.

[A]

So give these families because this is a great conversation. Like, what is the progression? If you were taking a kid in the cage for the first time?

[B]

What's the progression depending on the time of year? If we're in off season mode that I go about things a little different. So during season I don't do as much mechanics because I think if you're trying to calibrate your swing differently, we're going to go out and play in two days or tomorrow or maybe even tonight. I can't give you something new to work on because you're going to be me spiraling more. So when I have people come in for that, I'm just trying to free them up. Like if they're stiff and rigid or if they're just trying to get them to feel rhythmatic, that when we feel rhythm in the box and we're moving, we at least make an attempt to be a little more aggressive.

[A]

All right, so pause for a second because I think this is fantastic. So parents, if it is in the middle of the spring high school season and you think there is this massive overhaul of the swing that needs to be made, and I believe I agree with this. The one of the worst things that could happen is like, we need to like, you know, let's just say kids got a leg kick. He's been doing it for five years.

[B]

It all depends on if I've had a lesson with them prior to if it's a brand new one. 100 no go zone, right?

[A]

So I'm thinking about the parent who's like, hey, you know, you should really stop doing this and we should just go back to the basics, how you used to swing five years ago. It's like there's a time and a place for that. It's probably not the right time. And that doesn't mean the change doesn't ultimately need to happen. But if you think you're going to send your son to the game tomorrow and he's going to feel good at the plate having completely revamped his swing overnight. Yep, not going to happen.

[B]

I'm a firm advocate that if it's a non moving baseball off of a tee, dry swings, we can have focal points that are advanced as far as up here. As soon as we get a moving baseball involved, our muscle memory is no longer thinking about these things because we have to think about that thing. And as soon as we think about these, we take away from that, which is why we stink. But I think most importantly, you could have a God awful swing path a swing if we're on time, our chances go way up that we could have the most beautiful swing and still really stink because we're never on time. That understanding that a beautiful swing or a bad swing is simply just perspective that I've seen guys with the worst, ugliest swings I've ever seen that absolutely raked because they had a knack for finding a barrel. Their hand eye coordination was elite that they could be in the worst position ever and still find a barrel. And I've seen kids with the most beautiful swing that looked like they had a hole in their bat. They couldn't understand why you were never on time ever. And I think that everyone tends to think this because somebody's swing is why they fail. Well, they're thinking about their swing because they can't not get you out of their head because you're screaming at them from the aluminum bleachers.

[A]

Right.

[B]

That they need to get their foot down. So immediately what they think of is not hitting the baseball, they're thinking about their foot. So I think just understanding that when we, we do these things and we try and get this beautiful swing, doesn't matter if we don't understand the basics of it, which is to be on time.

[A]

So and I interrupted you there a little bit, but going back to you have this kid in the cage for the first time, assume it's the off season. What is that progression depending on the.

[B]

Age group of what I'm working with. I typically have my track man out and we're, we're looking at exit speed type of stuff. So where if I were to start from square one with a kid, I'm giving him some T drills that are truly like free motion stuff like slow pitch softball, leg kicks, aggressive moves towards. I want to see how fast you can move. What's your version of moving as fast as we can and getting the metrics and showing him. And not quite video yet, but showing him like, see when you did this, this was your old swing. This might feel stupid, but we got seven miles an hour of exit speed. If you don't know what that means, that's about 35ft in game time. Like this type of stuff. So using the, the modern metrics to show them. Like, you may think you look stupid with this stance, but your exit speed skyrocketed. Who doesn't like results? We learn to get over those when we see all of a sudden a number that we don't really truly understand. But it makes sense that if I were to just tell you, hey, that looks good, you wouldn't buy into it. So kind of just learning about that type of stuff that where you move best doesn't feel good ever at first.

[A]

Not at first.

[B]

We make subtle mechanical changes every now and then. Oh, that feels right. No one that ever tries these out. There's a reason why we do them is because you're stuck somewhere that lifting your leg and getting like massive stride length and flushing something is something a pitcher does. Why? Why does a pitcher leg kick and come down the mountains? Because he's producing the most kinematic force by doing that. It only makes logical sense for us to mirror that going the opposite direction. So I start there and obviously I'm not everyone doesn't have to leg kick. But truly just to free them up to the point where they're able to truly release their body fully is usually where I start. And kind of using the technology, which is kind of why I have to work with some older demographic of guys. Because if I told a five year old delay kick and let it eat, it's still going to come off like a Nerf ball. It doesn't matter. So to truly have the ability to have a step on it mode and a nice smooth mode, I've yet to learn the patience to work with the younger demographic. I could definitely help them. But verbally I have a tough time communicating with them because I haven't had much experience.

[A]

Yeah. And there's a time and a place too. I think some kids, some kids may be 11 years old and be super hungry and willing to learn and like they're more physically advanced. But for the majority of them it's. There's a time and a place. It's just. It's not there yet.

[B]

Yeah. And I don't think you need a $25,000 machine to tell them that they're just a little bit stiff. And rigid and they just need to move, you know. And, um, it all just depends. And I usually will never teach somebody anything without watching them swing 10, 15 reps to see what it. What my eye catches. You know, it could be some. The hands are just going well outta control and there's no coiled tension. They're in their midsection. There's no lower half engagement. There's no separation. There's no back coil. Like, different. A lot of kids do similar things right now in the amateur level that a lot of the drill sets that I give them at the beginning are the same. But no client I have, I ever treat or. Or go about the process the exact same. But no.

[A]

Yeah. Because it's all.

[B]

I mean, well, they suffer from the. The same issues that we. We want to try and get the ball in the air and the first thing we do is collapse and try and swing up. It's like we can't. Like, we will get so exposed. Like you may not with 70 poo throwing, but as soon as you. Where you want to get to, you will. You will simply be so exposed you want to quit. So just getting them to understand, like, swing path is equally as important as anything we do. And we do. I call them percentage swings. I'll literally have them swing a 10 swing. And they're always like 75.

[A]

Yeah. Right.

[B]

They still hit it to the back. And I'm like, no, truly, this is what I want you to swing like it's going to go two feet. But for you to truly understand what you're doing without seeing it on video, you have to slow mow it and feel every single small motion when then we work our way up. And I've yet to come across an individual that doesn't have success with that. And it's boring as hell for them because they just want to waffle it to the back cage and see how high they can get. Their exit speeds and all that stuff. It's like, dude, that's where you get this. This is what gives you. That is truly understanding how we move our body correctly.

[A]

Yeah. I was watching a video of Tiger woods and what's his name? Butch Harmon, his swing coach. This is back in the day and there's like a famous video where Tiger's a young kid at the time and he literally. But Charman would get him to stop at the top of the swing and just wait there.

[B]

Yep.

[A]

And then just swing over and over from that position.

[B]

Yep.

[A]

So of course I go to the range and I like, try it once and I Was like, I'm not doing it.

[B]

Oh, it goes terribly. Oh, I've done it. I've done it.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

I mean, he won. Was it nine tournaments in one season, and he wanted to make a swing change because he said it wasn't.

[A]

Yeah, it wasn't good enough.

[B]

Well, yeah, to the 99.9 percentile, but he wasn't one of them.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And it's not one. One trick isn't for everybody. But for the most part, that amateur level, if we're trying to manipulate things we see on tv, we're kind of digging our own grave. That I think we have to. We have to know that we have to start somewhere and build into our own. That we can't simply start with our own and expect the same on tv. It's. It's fun to emulate those swings to see if it works. But there's a reason why they got there is because they started from somewhere else. That even a guy like Judge, like, his whole life, he did not have his hands out here. Like, he had to start somewhere and learn and adapt to find out what's not you before you can find out what is you. Well.

[A]

And I'm curious if you experience this as a player too. You know, I feel like on some level, you are your best hitting coach because. And even guys that work with you who have access to you, when they go out and they're playing, you know, like you're the only one that's in your body every day going through and feeling how it feels. And so if you don't. If. I guess this is more of a reminder for people who put it in their mind that, like, so. And so is my savior. He's my Kool Aid. He's the guy. Yeah. He's my crutch. He's the guy that if he's there and he sees it, if he says it, it's like, it's the gospel.

[B]

Gotta be it.

[A]

Yeah. And it's just a dangerous thing because it is. You get to a place where it's like, well, he's not gonna be with you every single day.

[B]

Right. And we run into that issue a lot with some of my guys. Like, I'm available as a resource for them. One of my guys has a bad game. Ring, ring, ring. No more than 13 minutes after the last outs recorded on the. On the app. Like, I'm getting a buzz. I know if he goes over four with two punches, I'm getting a rip.

[A]

This is our friend that we know. Yeah.

[B]

Yeah. I mean, it's Clockwork. I can literally tell you to the exact minute because he is not eating, he's taking it to go box, he's hopping in his car, and he wants.

[A]

To talk about it.

[B]

Oh, yeah, because if not, he's going to hang himself from a shower curtain when he gets home. Like, he has to be talked off the ledge. And majority of the time, I'm not telling him anything of anything of value. I'm just telling him what I know he wants to hear. Yeah, like, oh, yeah, man, just a little bit there or whatever. But the majority of it is that we either swung at bad pitches and we chased or we were late.

[A]

Well, so how many times, like, when you're having this conversation are you reminding him of, like, where are you at with the two things?

[B]

Depends on what type of state of mind. If he's just simply blowing off steam, Me reiterating that's probably just gonna simply. Yeah, like, he don't. He don't want to hear that right now. But sometimes understanding the emotional state that he's in because everyone's hot after a bad game, sometimes instead of calling up your dad and your dad telling you those things, you want to call up somebody of neutral value, that's just gonna be like, yeah, dude, Like, I had some nasty stuff tonight. I know. Dude. Kept throwing me that freaking slider, and I kept bouncing it off my foot. Like, yeah, Truthfully, the reason why you kept doing it is because you're trying to hit it up. You're not trying to be level with it, that I could tell you were sitting, breaking ball, that you got away from your approach, what's made you successful, which is never leave the heater. Different things like that. But we've also had a relationship for three years now that I can know exactly where he's at just by hearing what he's talking about. Because everyone has triggered things that they feel as though is the issue when it comes from usually something stemming from something different that at times, you know, he likes to talk about, oh, my stride link's too long. My stride links. You know why your stride link's too long. You're not getting proper separation with your upper half is your upper half and your lower half have to match that. If at any point that this is getting too long, you know that these aren't moving properly. And he knows that, but he goes to it because it's an easy crutch to go on because it's a blame game. Never just. Yeah, I just stunk tonight. No one wants to admit that it's always got to be something. But for, for any of those guys that are going out there and any parent that wants to see, you know, I need to get him with swing coach mid season. It's not going to work. If anything, we're going to go back.

[A]

So what I think happens is just like the player who thinks I need to control this, there has to be a mechanical thing that I'm doing wrong. I think the parent oftentimes does the same thing. From the standpoint of you're working with the wrong coach, it's not working. You need to go over here and work with this guy.

[B]

And for me, a session is always beneficial. They could be doing nothing different. Yeah, dude, you feel that right there. You feel that whatever motion that we're doing, they're automatically in a positive, more positive state of mind that when they go into the game, their swing is no different than it was yesterday, but because they believe that it's better, they automatically go out there and perform.

[A]

What does that tell you about the game by the way?

[B]

Yeah, I mean like it's impossible for you to go in for anything and expect those muscle memories. If we're truly calibrated our brain to focus on one thing, it can't think about that in this, that if, if, if they are doing that, it's just simply removing their where is it? Where's my swing phase that we're actually focused on this and not this.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And a lot of it is simply that, that we can work on little things in the cage. Like oh yeah, I felt that cool tension my back hip like it feels really good immediately. When you go into the game, you're no longer thinking about your back kit because it felt better in your prep work, like immediately even no matter if it's at the, the minor league level, collegiate level, amateur level, you're automatically putting yourself psychologically in a better spot. Which when you're not and you start thinking about this, that this and that, our focus goes from not on that to all those and your brain's too smart for that. It won't let you do it. The game's too hard.

[A]

Well, I guess last question I have for you is what do you think? What do you think the game of baseball needs to change at the big league level?

[B]

Attention to detail.

[A]

In what way?

[B]

Not crapping on their simply career paths because every single one of them guys on TV is supremely talented. The attention to detail in moving runners, getting guys in like going back to almost like pick off moves, slide steps. The game within the game, the games holding a runner, learning how to run bases properly. That more guys get thrown out on bonehead mistakes than ever right now. That. That because I wasn't the fastest guy, I had to make my turns perfect. That I knew that hitting my in the base with my right foot as opposed to my left gave me a better turn to the next base. But so many things have gotten more lax. I think that with the catchers at the knee, you can only pick off twice before it's a box. The bases are size of pizza boxes and not real bases. Like so many things have changed in the game that we have pitchers have clocks now they have to pitch off of. And like all these things that we've changed have made us less polished players. That it's truly like raw ability on raw ability. Let her eat. I'm gonna let it eat here. Like there's no. This guy's throwing absolute cheese. I know that I can't turn that around and go 430pull side. I'm truly waiting for him to make a mistake. Breaking ball to make that happen. Or I'm poking it to right field guy on second base. Nobody out, games on the line. I knew I had to get him over somehow. I would sacrifice my at bat to move him so the guy on deck could drive him in. And we put guys in scoring position with nobody out in extra innings now and they don't get in more than half the time. That's unacceptable for me. Like they're giving you a free run if you simply go tink and fly ball. Yeah, but we're trying to hit a two run home run when it's tied. Like why?

[A]

Well, that's all. I also think. I mean it bleeds into the amateur level too because. And fundamentals are still being taught on some level. But again it just. It's more whether it's the rankings. There are. I mean, look, there are certainly teams.

[B]

People don't even have a punt anymore, man.

[A]

Well, so that's what's funny. There are teams that do preach this and do work on it. But I think when you're enamored by the glitz and the glam and the flash and the rankings, then it becomes really easy to say what? And this is where I do blame the big leagues. Whatever is happening at the amateur level, it's because of where has the big league level been? They're all looking pinnacle, man. That's right.

[B]

Everyone wants to be those guys. But like everything I was ever taught after I was drafted, you didn't get that guy over. Like the guy on deck was pissed. Yeah, because that was a free ribby for him. I mean, that's just the way that was the passing of the baton. That if these guys are more talented than ever, we complain about how hard they throw, how much they spin. Like they're so nasty. Why not try and do less? You're trying to do more with a guy that's better. Like it doesn't make sense to me. Like, why wouldn't you shorten up and poke a ball to right field as opposed to just swinging at that high vert heater that's at the top of the zone that you can't hit?

[A]

That's where I get. I think ego gets involved.

[B]

Yeah, well, what if I run into it? Yeah, what if you did? Well, what if you shortened up and hit your single to right all of a sudden? Now that 220 with 18 homers and 40 RBI can turn into 275 to 80 with 8 and 65 RBIs, what guy's gonna get paid more?

[A]

Yep.

[B]

Like accepting a 195 average with 20 homers. I don't want him. Like, I don't want him at all. He's never on base. Like when push comes to shove. That dude with 20 homers and 42 RBIs is not the guy I want. Because those are all solo homers and worthless at bats. Yeah, I want a guy that simply is up there. Like, I am not letting you beat me. Like, I may sacrifice my at bat, but like I am showing you that I'm adapting the at bat and I'm not letting you dictate the at bat. Like, I think we've lost that, that. Oh, well, what if I run into it? Well, solo homer is never going to hurt you. It's those pesky at bats that wear down Paul SK that he worked a 13 pitch at bat and that dude's sucking air. The next guy comes up has a two run homer or you work the inning to where you fatigue and get him out of the game. Like that isn't exist anymore. Because if A guy throws 62 pitches in five innings, twice to the order open.

[A]

Yeah, that's right.

[B]

So it's like some of the game within the game stuff that that made it the game that I love has completely dissipated. And if I felt like I was in a position where I could no longer compete with a guy on the mountain, he was just too good. And I'm stinking right now. I'm button every time you get A sack. I'm O for O. Thank you.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Like I'm taking that every day of the week. Like, why would I accept a punch out when I could simply get away with a. It's like I never had that bad.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

So it's. I don't know. I, I mean, I don't even remember last time I saw a sack fly in the big leagues.

[A]

That's good, right?

[B]

Honestly, I don't even know as if I've. The last time I saw a runner tag up at third and scoring a sac fly. Okay. Or a guy at second base get over on a sawed off ground ball that a righty broke his bat on. So it's like, I don't know. I.

[A]

There's very few players that, that still, you know, it's interesting, like as kids, it's like a two strike approach, right? What's the two strike approach now?

[B]

And it's something too is the fact you don't understand that if you don't practice that you're asking yourself to do something you're not calibrated to do. So understand, like if you're doing a two strike approach, that's just a perspective that immediately when we put our, our brain in the mindset of what is a two strike approach, we widen out, we choke up. We're automatically putting ourself in a psychological position to where we're, we're not letting him beat us, we're adapting. So we're like, we're crowding the plate, we're making adjustments to show him we're not trying to hit a home run with that. We're shortening up to do less with it because we feel slightly defeated. We go in defense mode that immediately when you choke up, crowd the plate and you get in there, you're like, I'm not letting you beat me. It's psychological. Choking up a half inch does not make you a better hitter. If that was the case, everyone would be halfway up the bat hitting.900.

[A]

Right?

[B]

So again, I, I'm. I know I sound like a weirdo talking about psychological, psychological. But again, anything, anybody that's ever played this game to any capacity of high competition, no matter if it's high level, amateur or college or pro, you dig yourself your own grave psychologically. That everyone is physically gifted. Guys in rookie ball throw 100 too. Like they're not more gifted than the big leagues. You know what they do understand where to put it when it matters and they know how to expose you with it. And it's not going to be middle. Middle. Nine times out of 10, like, everyone throws 100 right now. Guys in AAA, they're constantly 95 to 100 out of the bullpen. The reason why they're in AAA is because that slider doesn't slide more than half the time that the guys in the big leagues are executing it. That people just don't understand. It's not the. It's not the ability that separates you. It's what you do with your ability and how well you can execute it and simply stay within the confines of who you are. People don't really know their own identity. That's the problem. That if you're trying to chase something that you're not. Are you? Is that the best version of yourself? Like, yeah. 100 mile an hour high vert heater is really nice to have. But guess what? If I don't have that, I'm throwing a sinker.

[A]

Right?

[B]

Not a doo doo fastball down the middle. And I think for me, giving yourself an identity of who you are takes time, due diligence. Understanding that. But we're so hellbent on trying to be somebody else that we're not taking the time to figure out who you are as a player. You know, Altuve probably wanted it to be Mark McGuire. Unfortunately, he figured out he didn't have to be a slap hitter that hit.360 and stole bases. No, I can hit it in the cracker jack boxes and hit 32.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And he became a completely different player than when he first came up. He was just some Minor Leaguer that hit.400 every year that had. They had to give a shot because they were so bad. And he came up, and all of a sudden he's hitting 30 in the big leagues.

[A]

I'm like, it's been impressive watching him.

[B]

Yeah. When he first came up, he was a speed demon. You couldn't get him out. He just made contact everywhere, and he bunted and do all this different stuff and stole 60 bags. And then all of a sudden put on like, 15, 20 pounds and he found out that he actually has massive foil tension and he uses the ground as leverage. All of a sudden, that mini body is producing some serious speed. Like, you don't have to be big to create speed. Strength and speed don't always go together.

[A]

Right.

[B]

Like, you create speed. I mean, you wrap a rubber band around your finger and let it go. That's what you're trying to do with your swing. So. But. But at the. At the advanced amateur level, that's what I try and do most of is, is for them to have an understanding of who they are when they're at their best and tinkering around with different things to figure out if they are or aren't down that avenue. And, and it may be ideal to have that hybrid high speed heater, but some of us aren't genetically blessed with an absolute rocket or 6 foot 8, 270 pound Aaron Judge. Like yeah, we envy that. But if we're trying to swing like him, what are we really talking about at this point? Because everyone tries to be Tiger woods, but guess what? Tiger did things that no one else could do.

[A]

That's right.

[B]

And everyone has their own separate set of gifts. Taking the time to understand what those gifts are. And they not may not be as cool or as, you know, spicy, but they're you. Yeah, that, that's, that's, that's kind of how I view the game now, buddy.

[A]

I appreciate it, man. Yeah, dude, this is fun.

[B]

Yeah, I love this stuff.

[A]

I love it.

[B]

I think I might love baseball more now than I did ever before just because I actually have the ability to remove myself from a situation of suicide to really confident in every given moment of the day.

[A]

But no, it's, it's been nice seeing the evolution and the, the passion.

[B]

Yeah, I do. I, I, I don't necessarily love watching the game as much as I do love teaching it because I, I think watching it, it's robotish at times that guys are just doing the same things over and over and over again collectively and it just leaks down as we go. But if I can, I'm not teaching anybody anything different. I'm just trying to show them the best version of themselves, you know. And I think when we do that, ultimately it will get back to a better style of baseball that we can enjoy because everyone's doing the same thing.