← Most Valuable Agent with Matt Hannaford
Most Valuable Agent with Matt Hannaford
How Setbacks Shape Champions: The Untold Side of Making It to the Big Leagues
01:20:50
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- [00:13]
A
Johan Martinez, Kalilian, you've been here. This is episode five.
- [00:17]
B
I think we've done 35th episode.
- [00:19]
A
Yeah. Yes, I think we've done five. It's a different flavor of it, though. And we were joined today by a client, a friend, Zach Cole of the Houston Astros.
- [00:28]
C
Thank you guys for having me.
- [00:29]
B
What's going on?
- [00:30]
A
Hold the applause. Hold the applause. Where should we start? You know, let's. Why don't we start here? So you, you made your major league debut this September. And what's so wild about that experience is so. I was blessed to be there. Joe. You tried, you tried could make it, but you arguably had the best debut of anybody that I can remember. I mean, I know that you hit a home run in your very first pitch, I guess, first pitch you saw, hit a homer, but also you robbed a home run in the very first inning, which I feel like that kind of like set the tone for the debut. But so I want to set that. I want to like, just let everybody know that that experience happened. But what's interesting is, as I think about what was going on for you the year before in September, I remember specifically, obviously, you know, you, you had some ups and downs, right? You ended up getting injured a little bit. You end up getting AA. And in September, I think in the last 50 some odd played appearances at bats, you struck out a pretty decent amount of times, right? I think your last two games were for four with four punch outs, right?
- [01:40]
C
I definitely. I specifically remember getting the gold sombreros two games in a row to end the season. And it might have been, I don't know. I remember that the week before as well.
- [01:51]
A
So, so I, I, the reason why I bring that up is because in one, in one year, you went from not the lowest lows, but like a pretty, a pretty rough way to end the season to arguably the highest of highs, making your debut, finishing obviously with the Houston Astros in the big leagues, being a meaningful part of that team in September. I want to go back because we're going to, we're going to come back to this, but I want to go back to when you first started playing baseball. At what age were you when you felt like, you know, I'm pretty good at this? Like, this is, this is something that I'm not sure that I know that I'm going to be a major league baseball player, but I'm good enough to where I think maybe I can get a chance at doing that.
- [02:29]
C
That's actually, that's actually a great question, because I like to talk about this a lot because I'm kind of an unusual guy in terms of, you know, guys in my position. So when you think about guys in the big leagues, right, you know, you know, the best of the best, you know, the best 750 players in the world, you know, you would assume that a lot of them were pretty dominating growing up as kids, but for me, that, that wasn't really the case. From a young age, I struggled for a long time. And I remember a specific instance, particularly when I was 10 years old with my dad. You know, I was playing with a lot of kids who were better than me. And I remember specifically a whole tournament where I never touched the field one time for an entire weekend or an entire tournament that we played. And it was, it was a wake up call for me especially. I was, I was. I remember crying and I remember my dad asking me if I wanted to quit. And I didn't want to quit, I just wanted to play, but I just didn't have what it took. So at that point, that was a real turning point for me in my, in my career in terms of a player, because it taught me that, like, hey, like, you know, it's not just going to be handed to you. You're going to have to go out there and you're going to have to get it and you're going to have to take it and you're going to have to take that step. And it's not just going to, you know, I wasn't. And I was blessed with that, the athleticism, obviously, but I never really could put it together skill wise on the field. I was very raw and untrained and, you know, we went out and bought a bonet, set it up in the garage and we hit every night when dad would get home from work, we'd eat dinner and, and I'd go outside and I'd hit off the tee in the garage and dad would load for me. And the next year I came back to the same team and I eventually played myself into a starting position on that team. And that was the first time in my life when I was like, okay, I can do this, but it's not going to be easy. And I'm going to have to do this, you know, over and over and over again because I'm going to continue to run into challenges and be told that I'm not good enough and I'm going to have to work through it. But I would say the one age where I finally realized, like, I have a chance at this was probably 14 or 15. So kind of later in my career, I always wanted to play pro ball, but I never really thought I had a serious chance until I got to. Until I was a freshman in high school. And I eventually started on varsity as a freshman after a couple of weeks into the season and for the rest of the season. And at that point I was like, okay, you know, I have some talent. I'm playing against guys who are two or three years older than me right now, and I'm competing. So I know that I have the God given ability, but I just got to put myself into a position to progress from here. And that's when it really started to take off for me as a baseball player is when I got to high school and I kind of stopped playing, you know, the other sports. You know, they always talk about, you know, guys being, you know, versatile playing multiple sports in high school, but that wasn't really the case for me. I always knew what I wanted to be. I always knew what I loved. And I never had a question or a doubt in my mind that I wanted to be a big, big league baseball player. So from that point on, I put all my eggs into that basket and I just pursued it from there. And it's been a long journey. But yeah, I'm definitely a late bloomer in terms of know, I would say my progression or like my realization to where I was like, okay, I can actually do this. It's not just a dream. Like, I got a shot at making this a reality.
- [06:07]
B
And yeah, when. So when your dad asked you that because you were held again, when he asked you that, 10, 10, was there a part of you that was like, maybe, or was it just kind of instinctual that you're like, no, I don't want to quit.
- [06:19]
C
It was, it was tough. And obviously, you know, that's like 15 years ago now. So I don't really remember exactly what I was thinking. I do remember him coming over to me and talking to me through the fence. And initially I was upset, you know, and I wanted to. I wanted to be mad at the coaches. I wanted to be mad at the other guys for being better than me. But at the end of the day, you know, I looked at myself in the mirror and I was like, I want to play, right? I want to be out there with those guys. I want to be competing. Then I'm going to have to get better. There's no other way around it. And I feel like when you're faced with that adversity at the young age, the majority of people run from that. And I feel like from a young age, I just wanted to prove to myself that, you know, growing up as a kid, you hear about how unrealistic it is to be an athlete. You have to have a backup plan. You have to have this and that, because what if you get hurt and stuff? And I always remember a Bryce Harper quote from when he first got into the league when he was younger, you know, back in, like, 13, 14, I think. And he always said, you know, your. Your dreams should scare other people, and plan B distracts you from plan A. And for me, I wanted to prove to everyone else, but also to myself that I could do it, that a kid from a small town could make a decision at a young age and go out and do it. And it doesn't in is as unrealistic as it sounds like I can do it. And. And from that point on, it was always like a personal challenge to me, regardless of what other people said that, you know, I can. I can put all my eggs into this basket, as unrealistic or as difficult as it may seem, and I can succeed. And I feel like that was kind of my driving factor when it feels.
- [08:10]
B
Like, because your dad didn't, you know, approach you, like, do you want to quit? Like, almost like a pressure, but it was. He was actually asking you, yeah, hey, is this something that you want to do or not?
- [08:20]
C
Yeah. And. And. And my parents are a different discussion. You know, they're amazing. And I have the greatest parents ever, in my opinion. They've been just so good in facilitating and supporting my career. But my dad always, always gave me the choice. He never. He never pushed me onto the field. He never, you know, he put the bat in my hand. But after that first time, it was always me who went to go get it after that. And for me, he always gave me the opportunity. And I feel like there's a lot of parents who burn their kids out, you know, who want to live vicariously through their kids, you know, the careers. And my dad was never like that. He grew up in a really small town. He moved around a lot because our. My grandfather was in the Air Force. He never could really sit down and, you know, play a whole season anywhere. And honestly never really played at a school big enough where they had a baseball team. Well, he played a lot of softball growing up after he. When he was an adult around my age or in his 30s, just for fun, just because he wanted to. And he always loved the game. And he put that love of baseball on me and My biggest dream was just to be one of those guys that my dad talked about. Because if the coolest guy in the world looked up to these guys, then why would I not want to be one of those guys, you know? Because. Because that's. That's because I looked up to my dad. He was the coolest guy in the world to me. And. And if he thought these guys were the coolest guys in the world, then, shoot, why not, right? I mean, like. And I want to be those types of guys. And I grew up hearing about all the guys he watched growing up.
- [09:51]
B
Yeah.
- [09:51]
C
And just wanted to be like those guys. And it was cool, man.
- [09:55]
B
It's fascinating because our last episode, we were talking about the father's impact. That's part of what kind of stuck out for me there. And, you know, we talked about how important it is for dad and son to have a great relationship. And I've seen a pattern of a lot of guys that really struggle once they get to the big leagues with their relationship with their dad. And there's a lot of toxicity that I've seen. And one of the, I guess, like, pushbacks from our episode was like, well, what if that's what it takes to get your son to go, like, play at this highest level is like, you gotta push him, you gotta force him. You gotta be hard on them. And so it stood out when you were like, no, he. He asked me, he gave me a choice. He invited me, right. He, like, he believed in me. He supported me. And then even the way that you talk about him, right. Is like, I love him and I'm grateful for him because he didn't push it on me.
- [10:51]
C
Absolutely. No. I don't think you can force a baseball career. I don't think you can force almost anything in life. I feel like God, the Father decides what your purpose is for your life, and. And you can run from it and you can go with it, but it's going to happen either way. And I feel like, you know, I could have had, you know, if God said, zach, you're going to be a big leaguer, then there's nothing that could get in the way of that. And I feel like, you know, he instilled that drive into me so that no one else would have to push me, no one else would have to force me. I never had that parent story where, you know, my parent freaked out on the coach because I was playing the wrong position, or, you know, buying 30 different bats for your son because you want him just hit better. I mean, that's that's not going to do it, man. Like, at the end of the day, the separator between, you know, the kids who are good at sports in high school or in college and the guys who figure it out and make it to pro sports and it's mentality 100%, it's the sixth tool that you can't teach. And I mean, not necessarily we can't teach it.
- [11:59]
A
We're working on it.
- [12:00]
C
Yeah. But I'm saying in terms of having the drive to want to improve because we learn. You see it so much today, it's just, you know, skills and skills and physical tools and all these attributes that, you know, can qualify you to be a pro athlete. But at the end of the day, the guys who really separate from. Are the guys who really want to be out there and who can also handle the game.
- [12:24]
B
Yeah.
- [12:24]
C
And I feel like at a young age, a lot of kids get burned out with sports because they don't really want to be out there. They're out there because they think their parents want them to be out there or, you know, it's an avenue for them to, you know, be popular or fit in or to make friends. And it's not about the game. But for me, it was always about the game. You know, like, I was. I didn't really fit in in high school that much. I was kind of an oddball. I mean, I still am. I feel like you gotta. You gotta be weird.
- [12:51]
A
Those glasses on again?
- [12:54]
B
Should we tell them about Nacho Libre? A little bit later?
- [12:57]
C
But we. You gotta. I never. I never tried to be anything different than myself. And, you know, a lot of my friends were all guys on my baseball team because they understood it. And, you know, that was weird. I always remember. I. I don't. I've talked about this a couple times. I always remember my sophomore year of high school. One thing specifically. There was a guy who came in who was talking about career day, and he was talking about all the jobs, you know, in college, after high school, the real world stuff. And he was going through all this stuff, yada, yada, yada, lawyer, doctor, teacher, whatever, whatever. And then he. And we were in an auditorium with my entire graduating class. And he sat there and he said, where are all my professional athletes? And I was the only guy that raised my hand in the whole auditorium. And people laughed at me. Like, I could hear them. And I was like, you know what? Screw it.
- [13:49]
A
Yeah.
- [13:49]
C
And I raised my hand and I was like. Because that's actually what I want to do. And if that's outrageous.
- [13:55]
A
Then.
- [13:55]
C
It's outrageous. But that doesn't mean. I. That doesn't mean just because it's weird or it doesn't make sense to you guys doesn't mean that it's going to deter me from. From being honest with myself. Like, I would have lied to myself if I didn't raise my hand. Right. And I know for a fact that there were other guys in that room who wanted to be professional athletes, and they didn't raise their hand. And I was sitting there going, what are you doing? Like. And they say, like, your. Your dreams and your aspirations should scare other people and make them uncomfortable because that's. That's what. And I don't want to say. But you think of, like. You think of, like, genius. You think of Mozart, you think of Beethoven, you know, misunderstood guys, you know, and. But they didn't change a note.
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B
Yeah.
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C
You know what I mean? They. They didn't. Just because it was unorthodox at the time or it was unheard of at the time doesn't mean that they switched up on who they were. You got to be original, and you got to take a look at yourself in the mirror and say, what do I really want to do? And if that's what you really want to do, then go for it. And I feel like there's so many kids that are scared to go for it because all they hear is, it's impossible. You know, 5% of high schoolers go to college, and 2% of college kids go to pro ball. And a certain amount of. A smaller fraction of pro guys only debut in the big leagues. Like, it's so difficult to get there. And they just see the numbers and they. They look at the mountain like this instead of looking at the step right in front of them. And I feel like if they would just take a look, not at what everyone else was saying, what the world was telling them. We got to take our agency back. Right, Joe?
- [15:31]
B
You can talk about that.
- [15:32]
C
Yeah, we can. We can. We get to decide what is truth for us. We get to decide what is success and failure for us. And if. And if you let other people tell you what you can and can't do, then.
- [15:45]
B
You live a small life.
- [15:46]
A
Yeah.
- [15:47]
C
Yeah. You're just. You're just gonna conform and try to fit in, and you're going to shoot yourself short, you know? And the world deserves the original you, the you that you want to be. You know, when you were a kid, whatever you wanted to be, they deserve that version of you. That's why God made you that way.
- [16:03]
A
Yeah.
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B
Yeah.
- [16:04]
C
He wouldn't put the desire in your heart if he didn't want you to. If it. If for nothing, you know what I mean? Like when I. I had the desire to be a big leaguer for a reason, did it. Did it go the exact way I wanted to? No, it did not. I wanted to be in the league when I was 20, and I wanted to be a perennial all Star by the time I was 25. It didn't work out that way, but that doesn't mean that it wasn't going to work out. It just works out in a different way.
- [16:26]
A
And so let's talk about this a little bit, because one of the things that I want to cover is really identity. Now, Joe and I both know what your identity is rooted in now, but I want to, for the listener, shed some light on this, because I think they could hear what you're saying, and they are looking at someone who is extremely confident. You, as I described earlier, you have reached the mountaintop, so to speak.
- [16:50]
B
A mountaintop.
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A
A mountaintop we still climb.
- [16:52]
B
More to climb.
- [16:53]
A
Yeah, but you were somebody who, you know, you didn't go to lsu, right? You didn't go to Tennessee. You were somebody who went to Ball State. You were drafted in the 10th round. Right. You signed for less than you wanted. So the reason why I wanted to bring that up, though, is because if people heard that and actually knew some of the challenges that you went through, some of what you're describing now, it's even more impressive that. Because that wasn't that long ago. Right? Take us back, though, to. You go to Ball State, you get drafted, you're now in the minor leagues, you have these ambitions of getting to the big leagues. Share a little bit about what was going on in your mind. Did at any point you get to a place where you thought, am I going to do it? Is this going to happen for me?
- [17:39]
C
Absolutely. I mean, not many people know if we're talking about college and kind of the origin that many people know that, you know, before my junior year, when I had a great year, I had about 50 at bats in two years at Ball State, and I was hitting probably 160, 170, injuries, struggle, mentally, physically, everything. And I was on the brink of actually hitting the portal and leaving after my sophomore year at a time I remember being in a meeting room like this with my coach, and they actually let me talk first. And I told him, I said, I know I can help this team win. I just have to figure out how I can do it. And they said, that's not. We. That's not what we thought you were going to say at all. We thought you were going to come in here and say you wanted to go. And I was like, well, that's the easy way out. I mean, yeah, I mean, it would be easier for me to just, you know, turn tail, run, run away from the adversity and say I can go play for an easier team somewhere else, play my last two years, enjoy my baseball career and call it a day. But at the end of the day, I wanted to play pro ball. I wanted to be a big leaguer. And if I couldn't make it here, I definitely couldn't make it in pro ball. And going somewhere else is not going to make that better for me. And also, I also said, what does that say about me if the first thing I do, if. When I hit that wall or hit that adversity is I turn around and I walk away? You know, I mean, that's not who I want to be as a person. At the end of the day, you know, baseball aside, you know, regret is something that no one wants to deal with.
- [19:14]
B
Yeah.
- [19:14]
C
But in terms of, you know, like, words and stuff, was, am I ever going to make it? All the time, dude. I remember. I mean, you were with me in 24. I mean, man, that was a. That was a tough year. I had, like two hamstring injuries in spring training. Like, I showed up ready to go. Like I had just become a prospect in the organization, and I just played my way into it, met you guys, got signed up, and I showed up and boom. Hamstring injury on day three. Rehab, rehab, rehab, mid March, come back, play for a week and a half. Boom. Popped it again. Dang, that was bad. I was low at that point, and I was like, okay, start over, time to go. I missed the spring breakout game. It was the next day, I remember, and my parents were there, and it was a heartbreaker, dude. And so don't. Don't get to Corpus until about mid May. Show up to Corpus. You know, it's not great. It's up and down, up and down. Good week, bad week, and then, you know, I'm battling, battling and then end up having a. Having a really good month in July and. And no avail, you know, no. No call up, no promotion. I had a good four weeks and I was like, man, dude. And then arm injury. I got a DH for the last six weeks of the season, and that was tough for me mentally. And then, like you said, we had a lot of struggles, you know, at the plate, mentally, especially in those last couple of weeks, and definitely did not end the season in 24 the way we wanted to. It was tough.
- [20:52]
A
Yeah. So I guess at some point, as I think back about 20, on 2024, you. I mean, you pretty much articulated the roller coaster of a season. It wasn't that it was all bad. Right. You certainly went through stretches where you caught fire. And there's another player that I will say that you compare it to in regards to, like, his ability to catch fire, and that's Austin Riley, because, like, when you guys get hot, it's. I mean, there could be 15 homers hitting a month. Like, it's that crazy. But just as. As quick as you heated up. Yeah. Then you dealt with these injuries. Then it was like, yeah, we ended the season healthy, not. Not throwing, but healthy with the bat and just didn't get the. The outcomes that we wanted. So we then go into the off season. And what's interesting is I remember there was never this sense of panic, though, on you. There was no. And that's why I want to get into, like, what was going on internally, because from an outsider's perspective, from someone who's just watching you, I remember calling you after those golden sombreros, like, how we doing, man? And you're like, we're good, man. We're good. Everything's positive. Now, I'm smart enough to know that that's not 100% how you felt. Yeah, right. But I was more impressed because there's a lot of guys who would go through that and just be like, I have no idea what I'm doing. I, like, I can't even see the ball. It's the worst of the worst. I never, like, felt this panic with you that ultimately equates to positive things down the road, but. So then we go through the off season. Right. We then go into camp, and what happens. Tell everybody what happens. At the start of 2025, on one.
- [22:25]
C
Of the, like, the last couple of days before spring training started, I pulled my hamstring again. Right.
- [22:31]
A
So we start out in the IL again.
- [22:33]
C
Exactly.
- [22:33]
A
We then are back in Florida again.
- [22:35]
C
And I miss the entirety of spring training. It takes me. I think I showed back up to Corpus two weeks into April, so I missed the first 10 games, I think, this year. And just to reiterate, you were going back. That sense of panic, there was definitely a sense of. I have no idea what's going on right now. It's just the fact that as I've matured into the game, you have to understand that you're. You got to. At one point, you got to decide who you are as a person. You know, am I somebody who plays baseball or am I a baseball player? And we've talked about this before. Baseball does not make a good God. It is a terrible God. It's an amazing game, but it's not a good God. And if you worship the game, it will turn its back on you. And then all of a sudden you got something you're worshiping that is not a forgiving God like the one we serve. Absolutely. And that's why. And every athlete, I feel like regardless of what sports you play, you have to understand that and you have to overcome that. And if you don't, I feel like that's what drives a lot of people away from the games. And it's not just baseball, it's all sports. I mean, failure is a part of every sport, especially in baseball with how difficult it is. And if you can't handle that failure, if you identify yourself with the player that you are, you're always going to be disappointed. You know, I mean, like, if you, If I look at my, if I go, if I'm in high school and I get a 30% on a test, I'm pretty disappointed in myself. But 30% in baseball is amazing. So there's a lot of failure in the game. And if you can't handle that failure, it, it's, it takes a toll on you. Mentally, Mentally bad. And then all of a sudden you're freezing in your paralysis by analysis, which is a big thing for me as well. And one thing I will say is it's. I thought I knew how to handle failure when I got into pro ball, and I actually had no idea.
- [24:27]
A
So what did it look like going into pro ball? What, like, explain that a little bit.
- [24:32]
C
So obviously I had some adversity that I dealt with in college and I overcame it. I ended up having a successful junior year campaign at Ball State. You know, I, I was fortunate enough. I had a great year. I hit like 360 or something. I led the nation in triples and I'll do one. It was a great year. One year, all I needed, and I got drafted and I was like, you know what if I can survive that? Like, I can survive whatever pro ball has for me. But the hard thing about pro ball that was difficult for me was that I started second guessing myself and questioning myself was when you have those good stretches and you don't have Anything to show for it. When you go, when you play really well and nothing comes of it, you. You lose that peace within yourself. And like I said, you start to identify. You know, you're like, if I, if I worship the game and I'm playing good, then good things should be happening, right? So if I'm playing good right now and nothing good is coming from it, or whatever your good is, what the world is telling you is good, then why should I be happy? And then now I'm in a. Now I'm trapped in that cycle of it doesn't matter what I do, it's not going to work out. Because when I play bad, obviously nothing's going to happen. When I play good, I'm not getting the recognition or the notoriety that I think I deserve. And now I start to second guess myself, not only as a player, but as a person. Because if you worship the game and your self esteem is tied up in how well you're hitting right now, most nights you go home, you're probably going to be pretty upset with yourself. And that's tough. And that was. And there's a lot of tears, a lot of car rides home, especially in AA for those two seasons that I was there. It was tough, man. There was a lot of lonely car rides. When mom and dad called me on the way home and I just, I just couldn't talk to him. Yeah, I didn't want to talk to anybody. I wanted to go home and I wanted to just sit by myself and just wallow in it and just be upset. And I realized at one point in, in this year, when I hit Amarillo in August, that was that good. I hit over 506 games in Amarillo and it was a great week. It was a great week for me. No promotion. And at that point I was having, I was doing the best I had ever done in AA up to that point in my career. I was, I feel like I was the. At that point in my career, I was the best I've ever been hitting wise, you know, as a baseball player and no promotion, no nothing. And then I was like, man, but the difference this year between this year and last year was I really, really dove in and I really, really focused on being somebody who plays baseball and not being a baseball player, you know, because when you identify yourself with the game, like you said, it's up and down always and it'll turn its back on you quick. But if you're a Christian and you're a man or you're a husband or husband And a father, then the stuff you do seems to have less, you know, all encompassing, you know, validity in your life. You know, you. You have a bad day at work, you have a loving family waiting for you at home, or, oh, you, you know, I don't have a great day at the plate. Well, I have a God who still loves me and all these wonderful things that are still going right in my life. And at that point after that week in Amarillo, I was like, you know what, God? If it's not meant to be, you know, I could be sitting behind the desk right now. Not that there's anything wrong with that, but for me, it's not what I wanted to do. But I'm still getting to play the game. I'm still healthy. I still got my right mind. I got a family who loves me, a guy who cares about me. I'm okay. If I finished the year in double A this year, it was a good year no matter what. And I remember telling my parents all the time because they were always asking me, like, how are you feeling? How are you doing? They're always worried about me. You know, they're good parents. They're always going to do that. And I was like, you know what? It's okay. And it was really hard for my parents to hear me say, you know, if I don't make it to the big leagues, I'm going to be okay. Because I was never like that growing up.
- [28:28]
A
Right.
- [28:28]
C
All the time growing up, it was big leagues or bust. It was big leagues or I'm going to be depressed for the rest of my life and regret it. But for the first time in my life, I started to look at it as just something that I did. And it was an avenue to do the Lord's work. And if it was in double A, then it was in double A. And if it was in AAA or the big leagues or not in baseball, then that's what it was. That would be. And I know if you have faith, you trust that the plans are good. Yeah, God has good plans for you. And if that's not in baseball, then that's not in baseball. Or if that is, then it is. And that's what faith is. It's trust in that you're where you're supposed to be.
- [29:09]
B
It's interesting because I think part of what I've learned is you can't really get the thing that you want until you're willing to truly give it up. And it's such a paradoxical idea, but it's like you'll never get to that place unless you're really surrendering. It sounds like you got to that spot. And it's interesting to hear you tell some of this story, because as we were all men of faith, and the way that you and I started doing a deep dive was I was actually praying, hey, there's somebody I'm supposed to work with, I don't know who, that I'm just going to gift the work to. And you were put on my mind and heart. And I hit up Matt about it where I was like, I really feel like God's leading me to do this thing of, like, just gifting Zach a year of the work that I do. And you were like, go for it.
- [30:00]
A
Yeah, absolutely.
- [30:02]
B
Because you and I had met before, like, in the beginning of your journey, and, you know, I served you with a couple of sessions, and you were like, okay, cool. And we just stayed in touch, you know, back and forth. Um, but it was. To me, it was just so fascinating over time, right? To be like something. There was something there because we always got along. And then finally to be like, no, I think there's something bigger here. And it seemed like it came, like, right when you needed it. So it was just cool to hear the other side of the story, you know?
- [30:32]
C
Absolutely. And the thing is, for me, that was always so interesting was I had no idea how to do any of the stuff that Joe wanted me to do. I had never worked on my mindset, you know, my self esteem, the way I thought about myself, you know, actually, like, writing stuff down that I had that I wanted to work towards, but not only baseball goals, but just like, goals for myself. And that was very difficult for me to kind of work my way into, but it was great to be able to focus on something finally that wasn't on the field. And I feel like it was really good work for me that took my mind off of, you know, the, you know, the inaccuracies of the game, because sometimes, you know, the game will tell you that you're not playing well and you actually are, and sometimes vice versa. And for me to be able to work on stuff and pursue, you know, trying to make myself, you know, a more complete person mentally, not just physically, really kind of alleviated some stress off the field, and it allowed. This year, we actually implemented a lot of stuff. You know, we got to. I started trying to decide what kind of person I was going to be every day on the field. And I feel like that that helped me handle the failure so much because we took the stress off of me. And we just changed the narrative. So instead of, you know, not trying to strike out so much, we were just trying to be the best, the most competitive out that I could be. And we. We shifted the focus off of the negative onto the positive, and we changed the ups and downs of the game into just information and just data and just, you know, okay, I'm going to try this. And this is what happened. Okay, so now I'm going to go from here. But I could stay the same person the whole time. And it shifted my perspective on how I looked at my game and how I played. And so when I had that good week in Amarillo, it wasn't like, oh, I didn't get promoted, so I failed. It was like, okay, like, it's not my time. I did everything I could. I'm being the person that I want to be. Things are good. And then the next week, I was like, if it's. I was like, lord, if it's not meant to be, then it's not meant to be.
- [32:43]
B
Yeah.
- [32:44]
C
And then I had an average week the next week, and then I got called up out of nowhere. It was a complete shock to me. And was it. It really was. No, it really was.
- [32:54]
A
I'm only saying that because we were in aaa and I remember. You're like, hey, bro, you never know.
- [32:59]
C
Next time I see you, it's in.
- [33:00]
A
Houston, like, an hour later.
- [33:01]
C
I'm talking about when I got promoted from AA to aaa.
- [33:04]
A
Oh, got it.
- [33:04]
C
That. I didn. I think that was going to happen because he said, like, I. The week before I got promoted was an amazing week, and I didn't get promoted. And I was like, you know what? Maybe it's not in the cards, but I'm not going to switch up the way I feel. I'm going to keep going. I'm going to do the best I can and be the best. Zach, where I'm at right now.
- [33:20]
B
Yeah.
- [33:20]
C
And then out of nowhere, I get promoted to aaa, right? And I was like, wow, Lord, you're crazy. Like, you really had me there. I was like. I was thinking, like, you know, I didn't. And I feel like. And obviously, I don't know, but I feel like he was waiting for me to just give it up. He was waiting for me to just hold out the baseball career and say, do with it what you want, because before I level you up, you got to be ready to handle what I'm about to give you, because you can't run away with this. Because I feel like if I would have made it in 24 or earlier than what I did in 25. I don't think I would have been able to handle it until I got to that point where I literally was just like, God, you got it. I trust you. I'm doing everything I can on this end. And I know that you got everything else under control. I'm gonna keep doing my thing, and if it's supposed to happen, it'll happen. If it's not, it won't.
- [34:14]
A
So I have questions for both of you guys, but on. On your point and yours about letting go. So I was at church two Sundays ago, and the pastor tells his story. He says, before I got married, I had this mentor, and the mentor pulled me aside, and he said, you're never gonna know if you're ready to be married until you're ready to be alone for the rest of your life. And in a sense, it's kind of like the same thing, right? Like, you have to release this grip on. I have to control this whole thing. And I think so many of the parents can certainly understand this. A lot of the kids today, as they're coming up, they're so afraid to not make it that they think that they can control their whole career. Because up until the point. Right up until the point you're 15, 16, maybe you've been able to, right? Oh, just work out harder, hit more, and it's giving you the result you expected. And then you get to a level where it's like, oh, that same level of work no longer is providing me the growth that I once got. So now what? And most people unfortunately think, Joe, we've talked about this is like, oh, I need to hire a different coach. I need a new hitting coach.
- [35:17]
C
Right?
- [35:17]
A
I need to work out more. I need a new trainer. I need to eat better. And the reality is, like, yeah, maybe that some of that stuff would help as well, but, like, that's not ultimately the biggest problem with that. But my question for both of you guys is. So, Joe, I've heard you talk about this a lot, which is like, you have to get clear. Let's get clear. You say that a lot, right? So when you were working with Zach, where was that point where you're like, oh, we need to get clear on that thing. I have something in my mind that I want to say, but I don't want to give it away. So, like, what was it with you guys working where you thought, um, we need to have him get clear on this stuff?
- [35:49]
B
Well, there's a. I think there Was a lot of. So it's a. There's never a singular moment of clarity. It's a constant unfolding. I'll start by saying that. Right. So I would say the first piece of clarity is literally, hey, what do you want to accomplish while we start working together? Now, he and I started working together this season at the midway point, we'll say, right?
- [36:09]
C
Yep.
- [36:10]
B
And it's funny to hear you talk earlier because you already had the belief that you can't accomplish great things without kind of thinking in a crazy way or believing that the impossible is possible. Yet when we first started working together, I was like, what do you want? And you're like, well, I've always wanted to get to the big leagues, but this year it's not possible.
- [36:28]
C
Yeah.
- [36:29]
B
You're like, it's not going to happen. I was like, well, that's part of what we want to touch on first. Do you want to put that on the board? As crazy as it seems?
- [36:36]
C
Yeah. I think I remember. Is this ridiculous to put on the board?
- [36:39]
A
Yeah.
- [36:39]
B
Yeah.
- [36:40]
C
And you were like. And you were like, nah, man. You work towards it. And then I was like, all right. And it was kind of just.
- [36:45]
A
It was the first.
- [36:46]
C
It was the first thing at the top of the board, and I was just like, never really looking at that one. I was like, you know, I'm just worried about the ones underneath. But I put that one up there because I want to stay true to myself. But there was a lot of the times when I didn't. Didn't believe that it was possible. Oh, dude. All the time, man.
- [37:02]
B
Well, that's part of why I believe. I mean, I think we believe if you're going to accomplish great things, you. You really can't do it alone. Because we forget, even if we're connected to a powerful truth at some point in our life, which you had. You were saying when you were younger, you're like, yeah, I'm the only kid raising my hand. As you go through adversity and as you go through struggles and as you go through defeats, a story can pop up. Maybe that's not possible. Well, definitely not this year. And I think that was the first invitation to clarity is like, let's get clear with what you really want and when you have the courage to say it, right, yeah, I want this thing. And you're smiling even, you know, as we talk about it. Right. Because you could see the moment I invited him into that, he's like, yeah, I really, really want that. And then that's part of the Work we do. Is that okay? Let's get clear with the standards and the practices and the mindsets that's going to take you to go accomplish that thing this year. And that's part of what I love about your story, right? Is like, most people would say, well, you. You've been in AA too long, so maybe that's a sign of who you are and what you're capable of. But we were like, no, let's go build something brand new. New habits, new mindset, new approaches. And before you know it, to me, it's like, okay, you got promoted for the first time in your career and then went from the promotion to the thing that you didn't think was gonna happen. Cause I remember, you know, he FaceTimed me that day. He's like, we did it. We did it. You know, and then to have the story of, like, not only did you get there, you didn't know if you were going to start.
- [38:35]
A
Yeah.
- [38:36]
B
And then you started. And then to have your first at bat, your first pitch to hit a home run, that is story.
- [38:44]
A
Hardest ball he's ever hit.
- [38:46]
B
Yeah, the hardest ball.
- [38:46]
C
Fire me up, guys.
- [38:47]
B
Yeah, but that's, like, storybook. You know what I mean? It's like.
- [38:50]
A
It was definitely that to me, though.
- [38:52]
B
It starts with that little moment of clarity. I. Yeah, I want this, and I'm gonna show up for it this year in a new way, in a way that I've never shown up for it before. And watch me make history, because the day that you debuted, you broke a record, right? Like, it's like, it wasn't just average. It wasn't just normal. It was the kid raising his hand saying, I know who I am, and I'm gonna contend for something.
- [39:19]
C
For those of you who don't know, Joe is the man. I want to put that on record. We talk about that all the time. And that story is great. But it all comes down to every time I tell Joe this all the time, every time I talk to Joe, every time I open my mouth, I feel stupid because I always say. I always say something. And then Joe is always like. He always picks it apart. He's like, well, King of Russia. Yeah, he is the King of Prussia, by the way. But he always talks about. He's always like, well, you're labeling yourself or you're. You're create. Like you're creating your own barriers. He's like, you're the way. Look at the language that you're using. And you don't ever think of it because you're so ingrained in your brain to think the way that the world wants you to think about yourself or these people want you to think about yourself. And you don't realize that you're even creating these barriers and these labels and these trials for yourself until you really dive into, you know, you're wise and the reason you do certain things and the reason you're going through certain, you know, certain adversity and stuff, because a lot of it, a lot of the times was like, self imposed on myself. You know, we talk about, you know, we talked about strikeouts a lot because the org wanted me to cut back on them. And it was all I could think about, bro. I was up there, like, trying not to strike out. And we had to. We had to flip the script and we had to go up there and try to be the most competitive guy possible. And I was going to strike out less because of that. And so for me, you know, putting that thing, putting. I want to debut this year in 25, you know, it seemed outrageous, it seemed unlikely, not, not possible, not plausible. And we just, we just. I just stayed true to myself. And every day I showed up like a big leaguer and I just tried to treat myself like one. And I gave myself grace through the failures and learning how to control. Like, it's not, I don't want to say control your own destiny, but in terms, like you really can, in terms of. In terms of what you believe in. Now, obviously, like certain things or the Lord has planned for you are certain things. Like, there's no way around those. But I feel like, you know, if he gives you a desire in your heart, I mean, it's for a reason. And you gotta. You gotta believe in yourself the way that these people do. And Joe. Joe could see that in me even when I couldn't see it in myself. And he kind of unlocked that ability for me to where every day I could show up and be the person that I wanted to be and be the. Instead of, you know, trying to put on a mask every day and not actually, you know, identify or just pretend, you know, I. For the first time in my. In like, my career, I could show up and be the person I wanted to be, you know, and it didn't matter what happened, because I was this person today and I'm going to do this and that's all it's going to be. And it's nothing more than that. It's nothing less. And that gave me peace in my situation. And it also gives you that confidence that, like, this is Possible. He said, watch me. Go watch me, you know, and that's the thing is, like so many guys, you. You tell yourself that you believe in yourself, but do you really, like, do you really believe in yourself? And for me, I thought I did, you know, but at the end of the day, we took a look at the words I was using and what I was saying about myself and the barriers I was creating for myself, and I was getting in myself, getting in the way of myself a lot of the times, and it's. It's so tough. He told me when we first started. A lot of the first year is going to be unlearning things, and that is difficult because you don't realize how ingrained that stuff is in your brain.
- [43:02]
B
Yeah.
- [43:02]
C
Like the talk where you. Where you close yourself in because, you know, what's that one saying? Your greatest fear is that you are inadequate, but your bit. Your biggest fear is like actually that.
- [43:16]
B
Word Coach Carter quote.
- [43:18]
C
Yeah. It's like, actually, that's your powerful or whatever. Yeah, like, that's actually. That's actually similar to my situation. It's like I thought that. I thought that it was, you know, I was labeling myself and I thought that I wasn't able to do any of these things, but, like, I didn't realize that if I just went for it and just told myself that that was already going to happen, that I could go out there and achieve it, even when the world was telling me that it was unlikely and all this stuff. And the thing is, like, I told you, I thought I understood how to deal with failure at that point, but it was a different level. It was on a mental level, but it was also like, with myself. I didn't realize I had to become a certain person before I could become a certain baseball player. And the only way I could do that was to work with somebody who knew how to unlock that with me, increase my relationship with my savior, and also detach myself from the game. It's not life or death. I could never play another game for the rest of my life. And I'm still going to wake up tomorrow, you know, Lord willing, and. And go. And go do whatever I'm supposed to do.
- [44:28]
B
Yeah.
- [44:28]
C
And that's the thing is so many for me for so long, I just felt like if I didn't do it, I was just never going to forgive myself. I never gave myself any grace. And that amount of pressure just created just a spiral in my brain, one that made it almost impossible to play because you saw it. All the guys say the Same thing about me all the time. All the tools are there. Is he ever gonna. Is he gonna put it together?
- [44:53]
A
Yeah.
- [44:53]
B
Well, this is because one of the things that will pop up. So when I start working with folks I'm looking for. One of the things I'm looking for is patterns. And so one of the patterns that emerged that essentially was the thing, like the thing that would consistently come up for him that created the hot and cold. And you know, you had told me about the story with Jeff Bagwell, right? Where you know, he comes at you and he tells you this thing and it inspired you, right? And then he had a hot season or a hot little window of time.
- [45:23]
C
Yeah.
- [45:23]
B
Hot streak. Yeah.
- [45:24]
A
It's like you're inspired.
- [45:24]
B
He's inspired. But then the mindset that would create the dip came back, which is the thing that we talked on.
- [45:30]
C
Pressure.
- [45:31]
B
Well, the pressure of it. Yeah, I gotta, I gotta. Well, this per. They need this thing from me. So what kicks in was I can't strike out. Why? Because they keep telling me, you gotta stop striking out. So the focal point of the brain becomes, oh, no, stop striking out. Stop striking out. Stop striking out. Now that's not great direction for the brain because what you're giving the brain is something to avoid, something to prevent. And what that's going to do is it's going to tighten the human being up. So that's some of the work that we did is I first noticed that, oh, this mindset's emerging for you. And you go from like knowing who you are essentially to now trying to protect something. Right. It's like, I gotta make sure I don't do this. And that's, that's, that's not where you're in your power. So that was the first invitation. Hey, that's an anti vision. That's not a commitment to create anything. So I know what you don't want, which is you don't wanna strike out. What do you want? And you were like, oh, yeah, what? So what do I want in my at bats? Instead of focusing on the negative, we'll say, right? And then that's when you came up with like, I want to be the hardest out in baseball.
- [46:41]
C
Yeah.
- [46:42]
B
And I could see that fired me.
- [46:43]
A
Up when I heard that, by the way.
- [46:44]
B
And I could see like one, you're like, your whole face changed, your posture changed in that moment because you had something to be about in that moment now.
- [46:54]
C
Exactly.
- [46:55]
B
Right. It wasn't something to avoid and prevent that was causing you to be small, proactive, not reactive. That's right.
- [47:01]
C
That's what. And we talked about that, too, is like you were taking our agency back. We get to the side. A lot of the times I would use the words good and bad to describe, and he was like, you're using. He's like, you're. He's like, you're labeling again. He's like. He's like, what is good and what is bad? He's like, are you deciding what that is? He's like, it's just data. It's just information. It's just feedback. You don't have to put emotions on it. We don't have to put a connotation on what's happening, because then we start to ride that roller coaster. And if we can just look at it as what's happening around us and just taking a look at our surroundings, we can make an adjustment without falling apart or lo. Or, like I said, not being who you are, because I wasn't who I was, right? I was just somebody who was defensive, you know, I was just up there, you know, not really myself, just, you know, just trying to be reactive instead of going out there and just being like, you know what? Like, I can do this. Like, I'm a good player, you know, and I deserve to be out here. I'm gonna go out here and do my best. And if it happens the way this way, it happens. If it doesn't, I'm still a winner because I get to decide what success is for me. And if success is, I go out here and I glorify the Lord, and I. And I play as hard as I can, I win. There's no. I can't. And the one thing I will say. I remember they were asking me when I got. Right before my first game in the big leagues, that one. There was some lady who gave me my interview. I think her name was Lauren. But she does some of the interviews for the Things. And I'm sorry if she's watching this. It was a busy day, but I follow her on Instagram. She's a great lady, and she was. She talked to me about my faith before the game. She was a sigh of relief for me and a stressful, nervous day. But she's. She's like, how are you feeling? And. And the words that came to my. I can't mess it up. Yeah, I can't mess it up. There's no way I can mess this up, because this is such a win for me today. It does not matter what happens on the field, because I did it. I. I set My mind to this, and I believed in myself, and here I am. And I said, I'm just gonna go do it. I'm just gonna go do. And that's. And it freed me up so much. And. And she. She even mentioned. I remember listening to her talk during the game. She's like, you should have heard what he had. The way he talked about himself and just being around him, like, his confidence and stuff. The way he was talking, like. And the thing is, too, is it was like, I remember what Joe was talking to me about, because at that point, I felt like I was in a great spot mentally, and I really couldn't mess it up because I was out there doing my thing, and I was a winner before I even got on the field. And that just. I mean, talk about taking the weight off your shoulders to go out there and to just play.
- [49:52]
A
Yeah.
- [49:52]
C
Just to go out there.
- [49:53]
B
Just be.
- [49:54]
C
Yeah, just go out there and have your mindset and turn your brain off and go out there. And he said, just be.
- [50:00]
B
Who do we.
- [50:01]
C
Who do we be? Do. Have. Right.
- [50:03]
A
That's right. I love it.
- [50:04]
B
Who are we committed to being for?
- [50:05]
C
Exactly.
- [50:06]
A
You got them now.
- [50:08]
B
You got it.
- [50:09]
C
Yeah. It's like, I pay attention.
- [50:10]
B
That's right.
- [50:11]
C
I got these things.
- [50:12]
A
Well, one of the biggest things I feel like is the degree to which. And I don't want to say, like, the degree to which the work works, because on some level, it's a lot of stuff. But the thing that's coming to mind is, like, you have self awareness. You have this awareness about, like, oh, I did it again. Yeah, right.
- [50:29]
C
Of course.
- [50:29]
A
Because so many guys, I feel like maybe would approach this and say, all right, Joe, give me the goods. Yeah, do. Do your thing. Like, pump me up. Give me all the good words, the motivation. All right. Let me, like, lock it into my mind. All right, I got it. Okay.
- [50:44]
B
Yeah.
- [50:44]
A
And they're, like, hoping that they're holding this belief system long enough to get to the game and, like, apply it where for you, it, like, you can't lose it. Right. Like, it's.
- [50:55]
C
It's not about. It's not about a belief, not about being motivated. I have all the motivation in the entire world right here. No one needs to motivate me to go out there and do what I. What I want to do because I want to do it. I. No one has to. There's no. Nothing fake about any of this. Like, I want to be out there.
- [51:16]
A
Everybody who works with these mental skills guy. And I don't want to say Mental skills. But, like, anybody who puts the work that Joe does, like, in this box over here needs to hear what you just said. Because I would say a large chunk of guys, when they wrestle with the work, it comes from a place and. Tell me your thoughts.
- [51:35]
B
Yeah.
- [51:36]
A
It comes from a place of thinking that, no, I do need to do that. And what. You're like, you're wearing it, like, clothes, like it's your skin. Like, you can't lose it, because it's not anything that I'm like, I'm not drinking a potion. I don't have magic. Right. It's like. It's literally this way of being.
- [51:51]
B
Yeah.
- [51:51]
A
Where I think a lot of times guys don't draw that distinction and instead are like, oh, no. It's like, I'm reading a book.
- [51:58]
B
Well, because.
- [51:59]
A
Right.
- [52:00]
B
Because this is part of the primary lie that we believe. We all believe this at some point. It's. My identity comes from the external world. So I think that's what we all struggle with at times. I think when we're most clear and secure and strong, we're like, my identity comes from right here. And I don't. I don't need that to be who I am. Right. I. That can happen, and I can learn from it, but I don't need that to be who I am. So I think that's where most of us struggle is we're constantly giving away our identity. We're constantly giving away our power. So one of the first things that I love to do when I do the work with folks is helping them understand the distinction between empowered and disempowered. Because I think it's a. These are words that we throw around all the time, but we really don't know. Well, what does it mean to be disempowered? And essentially what it means is the resources that I need to accomplish what I want are out there. Right. The power that I need to accomplish what I want her out there, which is, I'm gonna wait for you to motivate me. So it could even be looking like yourself. The Jeff Bagwell story. Oh, he motivated me, and then I went on a hot streak. But then again, you're left to your own devices. So it's such a. Like, a quick hit.
- [53:12]
A
Well, yeah. And I feel like subconsciously, too, like, if that were to happen and you, like, heard somebody say something to you and it made you feel good.
- [53:17]
B
Yes.
- [53:18]
A
It's almost happening unconsciously. Like, oh, man, that felt good that he paid me a compliment. And so you're like, Reinforcing this thing. And before you know it, you're like, oh, man, I need this guy's approval.
- [53:27]
B
And the lie there is it was them and not in me. And really, what's fascinating is when that moment of inspiration comes, what you're experiencing is you. You're inspired, right? Not because of them, but you're tapping into being an inspired person. And so then you can create from that place. So then I invite folks into. What does it mean to be empowered? Oh, the resources that I need to accomplish what I want are all inside of me now. Part of what's problematic as humans is we forget that and we miss things and we have blind spots. So that's why the team of it all is so necessary. Because, yeah, we can't. Even though it's all here, we miss things, we forget. We have ups and downs, we have bad days. So that's why you need a community. I think that's why, you know, success is built that way, that everybody who succeeds has great people around them, you know, And. And I should say this. Success plus longevity. You need to have a great team. Otherwise you may succeed, but then it'll go away really, really quick. What do you got?
- [54:34]
A
I just. Laughing. He said longevity.
- [54:36]
C
Yeah. Braun James.
- [54:38]
B
Oh, no. He said the longevity.
- [54:40]
C
Go.
- [54:41]
B
So I want to.
- [54:42]
A
I want to. Yeah, I want to read something because.
- [54:46]
C
I totally agree with what everything he said.
- [54:48]
A
I remember you telling me, and I can't remember exactly when this was. This was during one of the dips. And so I'm going to read Genesis 50:20.
- [54:58]
B
Okay.
- [54:59]
A
Do you remember telling me this?
- [55:00]
C
I think so, but go ahead.
- [55:02]
A
You meant evil against me, but God meant it for good. And I remember you reading that to me, and as I'm thinking about your story, like, if I could try to describe or embody, like, a verse that just, like, encapsulates who you've been. I remember, dude seeing you in Atlanta and, like, you being on one of the mountaintops, right? The first of many mountaintops, and you had this piece about you, like I said. And now after hearing you describe, like, I can't mess this up. It all makes so much sense now. But it was like that I feel like, does such a good job. It's like there was this belief at one point that, like, why isn't this happening for me? And now it's like, oh, you actually meant it for good. And I feel like you've received that now. And so now going forward, like, walking in that. Right? Walking in that truth. Yeah, yeah.
- [56:04]
B
That powerful truth.
- [56:05]
C
It's.
- [56:05]
A
I mean, talk about empowering.
- [56:07]
B
Yeah.
- [56:08]
C
We're always in season. So one thing I heard from one of my. One of some. I think I was watching like a pastor, I think. But he was talking about how there's only two outcomes. It's either you get it gets better or you die. And either way, it's a win because we. Oh, yeah, we either go to the father or we receive the reward for our perseverance and our endurance. So when it gets better, it. There's no bad outcome when you're. When you're a believer. And for me, obviously, that's at the core of my everything and my why. But you have to. Like I said, we talk about, you know, like, I had to get prepared before I could get handed this thing, you know, and we talk about, you know, the realization maybe it wasn't on the field where I needed to improve. I had everything. You know, we always. They always wrote about me, and they always say, he's got all the tools, but when is he going to put it together? Well, why is he not putting it together? No one ever looked at who I was in here and in here until I started working with Joe and really diving into, you know, why these things might be happening. And then once I realized, you know, I had. Because, like, the hot streaks were there and then they were gone, and then it was there. So they always knew that if I could just figure out that missing piece and I could get some form of consistency, that I was going to take off, but I just couldn't figure it out. And the thing is, I never gave myself the opportunity because I kept myself in this box all the time. And Joe, when I first started talking to him, I was comfy in the box. And you don't even realize it. It's like a jail cell, but it feels comfy in there. And there's nice seats in a comfy bed. And you're like, this ain't so bad, even though it's a jail cell. And then Joe's like, hey, dude, you actually don't have to be in there.
- [57:58]
A
Yeah.
- [57:58]
C
And I was like, what? He goes, yeah, there's actually like a whole world, like, outside of the jail cell. And I was like, no, you're crazy. And he was like, no, do come take a look. And I remember, I was like, yeah. I was, like, peeking. And I was like, I don't know, it's kind of scary out there. And that's. I know this is a joke and everything, but, like, no, it's a good Analogy. It's really what it is. And it's tough to. You don't realize that you're trapping yourself in these thoughts. And you talk about, like, how you can need motivation from other people. And I talk about how I am always motivated, no matter what. I was working so hard. Baseball. All the time. All the time. All the time. And I just needed to shift my focus. I had the drive. I just needed to be pointed in the right direction. And everyone just thought about just working on baseball more and working on baseball more. But I feel like I had everything I needed to be successful at the highest level. I just didn't know how to unlock it. Yeah.
- [58:58]
B
Yeah.
- [58:58]
C
And for me, what was holding. The only person holding me back was me. And until I started working with Joe, and. Which he's the man, by the way. But until I started working with him, I realized that I had the power to do it. And I just had to change my perspective. I had to change what success meant to me. I had to change, you know, my definition of good and bad and the way I talk to myself and the person that I wanted to be. Because you will. You will get labeled in this world if you allow yourself to be.
- [59:35]
B
Yeah.
- [59:35]
C
And you. And if you sit there long enough underneath that labeling, you'll start to believe that that's who you are and it doesn't have to be.
- [59:42]
B
And this is the thing. I mean, no, because, you know, you. That was a beautiful analogy in terms of jail cell, because I think what I realized when you said that is it's almost like life has so many different jail cells, but it always has an open door. And we walk ourselves in, and then we stay too long, we forget. And we forget that the door is open, that there's no door there. You can walk yourself out. And I think that's what's fascinating about these moments that we all fall into, where now we think it's over. Like, I can't get out of this. And it's like the whole time, the door is wide open. So we do need each other. Yeah.
- [60:18]
C
Sometimes it is literally that easy.
- [60:20]
B
It's that easy.
- [60:21]
C
And it seems impossible because all the time I would sit there and I'd be like, yeah, I got it. And then he would be like, well, you don't got it because you're using.
- [60:28]
B
These words, which I wouldn't say it.
- [60:29]
C
That way, but that's what it felt like.
- [60:31]
A
I literally invite you to doubt.
- [60:33]
C
I always say in conversation, say, dude, I remember. I remember talking to. Talking to Joe about, you know, and, and it goes so much deeper than just, you know, like, whatever worried about. Because obviously baseball has always been, you know, a priority for me. But we just looking into, like, how I was as a person, how I interacted with myself on a daily basis, how I interacted in non competitive, you know, everyday situations, talking about, you know, like, I was late to a meeting and he was starting to break down, like, how I felt about being late for meeting. I was like, well, I feel guilty. And he was like, he's like, there it is. He's like, he's like. And that's the response that your brain, that you've gotten comfortable feeling in the situation. But what if I told you that you could look at this, this instance and look at it as in a way of growth instead of. As a way of beating yourself up or feeling ashamed or guilty. What if you could look at this and say, yeah, I messed up. I made a mistake and I made it. And I made. I broke one of my promises or my agreements that I. That I wanted to do, but now it's an opportunity for me to get better. Not all to punish myself.
- [61:41]
A
Right?
- [61:42]
C
And that, and that's the thing is too, is like when you start to change perspectives like that, it leaks over into other areas of your life and then you start to pick up on habits you don't even realize anymore. And like, for me, like, like this, when we were creating our. Our goals for this year, for our off season, you know, this year, we were like, now that. Now that we had gone through that instance during the season, it was like, all right, like, let's make some goals. And I did so much better. And I wasn't afraid to, like, put something that sounded crazy on my goal list. And even though it was, it was crazy, I was like, you know what I mean? Like, who am I to tell myself that I can't go out and do this when I literally didn't believe in myself and then I went out and did this.
- [62:23]
B
Yeah.
- [62:24]
C
You know what I mean? And that's the jail cell in your mind, you know, and we talk about, you know, like, having a community of people around you. It's so easy to want to go back, you know, like, you're like, oh, it's nice out here. And then something bad happens, and then you start to look over your shoulder and you're like, you know, like, I got a. At least I got a roof over my head, you know, but the thing is, like, that's why I feel like having you guys around and having a Good family and obviously my. My savior. And it's.
- [62:50]
B
It.
- [62:50]
C
It lets me know that, like, you know, like, there's no promise that the bad things aren't going to happen. We just. We just have that comfort of the people around us and our saviors, so we know that we're not alone in the fire.
- [63:02]
B
And, and, you know, part of what I think, we take things like this for granted, right? Because, you know, I like to think about alternate universes because I do like comic book movies. And I think we underestimate. I think we underestimate the power of the choices that we make, because there is an alternate universe where I approach you and I say, hey, you want to do this work? And you say no, right? Because you have asked other players, hey, you want to do this work? And they say no. And so that's.
- [63:32]
C
That was me at the beginning. You offered it to me, and I didn't take it.
- [63:35]
A
Well, it's because you don't realize.
- [63:37]
B
Right.
- [63:37]
A
See, here's what's interesting. I love that you brought that up, because someone who's now known Joan Joe for a period of time where it's like, I know the impact of the work that he does. How, like, what it makes on you. Trying to describe that to a player. It's like, okay, do you want. What you want to happen? Yes. Okay, talk to my man here.
- [63:58]
B
Yeah.
- [63:59]
A
And even that doesn't do it justice because I think some of the people. And what's so inspiring to hear you talk about, like, you brought up commitments, right? Your commitment to be on time, and you were late and you felt bad. Do you know how many people actually would be like, bro, I was just late one time.
- [64:13]
B
Yeah, that's dumb.
- [64:14]
A
Like, what do you mean? Like, it's. It's not good or bad. It's an excuse. Like, it's. It's. It's a big nothing. So credit goes to you for jumping in, Right. Credit also goes to you for being open to this idea of wanting to do it.
- [64:30]
C
Credit goes for bringing two brothers together.
- [64:32]
B
Yeah. Well, that's part. Because that's part of what I want to highlight is it's how, like, I think we underestimate the power of humbly saying yes to support. And I think you needed some of the difficulties to go from, like, eh. Because you said it at one point in the beginning, you're like, how much of a difference is this going to make?
- [64:49]
C
Oh, then in the beginning, I. I was like, this is pointless.
- [64:52]
A
It was probably an interesting.
- [64:53]
C
I was like, who is this?
- [64:54]
A
That Guy from California.
- [64:56]
C
It was probably changed by the words I using. I was like, how's changing the words I'm going to use help me to strike out less? This guy's crazy. Hold on. True or false the first time?
- [65:04]
A
Because I think the first time you were late, right. Wasn't that.
- [65:07]
C
I don't know.
- [65:08]
B
Yeah, it was like maybe third or third time.
- [65:10]
A
Yeah, but true or false, the first time you had to like jump on this. Was there a part of you like, oh man, do I like, I really gotta do this. Come on. You're like, I got an. I got an hour for like, okay, I guess I'll do it. But like, you're not excited. You don't see the value yet. Right. So how many players are in the were in the same place that you were who don't ever do it?
- [65:32]
C
More. More than the majority. Yeah, absolutely right. I feel like. And also I heard about mental skills training. You hear about it all the time because you hear about, you know, like the highest of high guys, you know, at the highest of levels, you know, using that stuff, those resources. And you're always like, oh, those guys are weird. Like you don't you. I always relied on myself to just go out there and just out athlete people and just get away with it because I. And then I got to a point where. And this is a thing from God as well, we're so resourceful, we're so smart. He makes us this way on purpose. But eventually you're going to be put into something in your life where you can't overcome it by yourself. You cannot keep doing the same thing. And you got to turn to him and you have to say, lord, I need help. And for me it was injuries, it was, you know, up and down performance and it was all that stuff. And I was like, okay, I can't do it. I was like, I've tried everything. I know how to do everything and it won't work. It's not working. I need help.
- [66:34]
B
Well, this is part of why I say the power of choice is so important. And we had a whole session where we're talking about agency, the power of choice and our ability to choose how so many folks in the sports world are just giving away their choices and they're not making the most powerful choices. And this is part of what I think, you know, happens, right, is we make the choice of rely on yourself, rely on yourself, rely on yourself. So that becomes the most comfortable choice. And we never stop to consider, well, when is that choice getting in my way? Because now maybe I'm not hitting the next level because all I do is rely on myself. So now it's time for me to collaborate, partner, say, yes, it's me and you. And we can do both of those things because I think this is part of what happens. Every level that we get to requires a different component from us. Right. So you were talking about it earlier. You can get to the place where you succeed, and then let's say you make it to aaa all because you've done it one way. Now, are you willing to consider that way is what stops you from getting here. Right. If you could see, oh, there's a new choice to make, whatever that choice is, and I can access that choice. Now you tap into that level, which sometimes is. I can't do it on my own.
- [67:52]
C
Oh, man. Exactly. I think of a rocket ship when it's going into space. Certain parts have to fall off so it can keep going up. But those certain parts also are what got you off the ground. But you can't keep going up if it's weighing you down, because the only way you keep going up is when those parts fall off. And so it can keep going up. Yes. This was definitely crucial for you when you were on the ground. But we're not on the ground anymore. I wasn't in the ground when I was in double A and I was striking out 40, 50% of the time, and I was trying everything in the world and nothing was working. I wasn't in the ground. I was in midair, and I was starting to fall, and my engines are failing, and I'm like, okay, I can't fix this. I need help. And I ran to God. And then you introduced me to Joe, and my perspective started to change. And it wasn't about do or die baseball. It was, you know, how can I be happy with where I'm at and continue to push myself to be a better person, to be more complete person to where I'm at? And when I finally got that weight off my shoulders and I had that peace where I could be like, you know what? I am a winner regardless of whether I do this or not. It wasn't so do or die. I leveled up.
- [69:04]
A
Yeah.
- [69:04]
C
And. And it was like, boom. Two weeks in aaa, and guess what, dude, you're going to the big leagues. And I was like, what? I remember when I called you, you were like, dude, I'm in the shower. And I was like, call, call, call.
- [69:15]
A
So good.
- [69:16]
C
It was awesome. But it was. You had to, like I said, God will put Something in your path that you cannot do by yourself on purpose. Because our human. Our human tendency is to try to solve problems on our own. Yeah, we always look to ourselves. And for me, I was always just looking in the wrong places. I was looking out there and out there and out there. And like Joe said, I had everything I needed right in here. I needed. I needed my savior, and I needed a good community of people who were pointing me in the right direction and not just putting pressure on me to go out and succeed in a sport. Because I had done everything I could. I had everything I needed physically to be a successful baseball player. I just couldn't. I just couldn't get out of my own way, and I had to have people help me. First of all, I didn't even know I was in my own way. I'm sitting here looking around going, I need to get better at this, I need to get better at that. And I didn't. I needed to work on myself. I needed to get out of that jail cell, and I didn't even know I was in it. I was looking through the bars the whole time. Yeah, it was crazy.
- [70:18]
B
Well, the.
- [70:19]
C
The.
- [70:19]
B
The sad thing is there are a lot of people who stay there and who. They don't experience what you experience because they never consider something different. They stay in their own ways. There's people that. We die in our own ways. Instead of saying, I gotta be missing something, what is it? Let me go search for it and find it. And I think that's part of what makes you special, is this is why I think your parents did a great job of giving you the scaffolding that you needed to go actually accomplish this. I think it's what makes my work a lot easier, is when who you are, at least when we started working together, was a person who understood the power of choice, because that's why that stood out to me. In your story, your dad said, what do you want to choose? He didn't force it on you. And I think that was part of the unlock for you is like, okay, maybe there's this other choice I can make, and in that new choice, I can have a different future.
- [71:16]
C
Because you find liberty in that choice.
- [71:18]
B
Yes. Yes. But that's the invitation for all of us to start to consider new choices, because every choice has an outcome. And I think that's what we get blind to, is some of the people in your shoes in pro sports world are making the same choices, getting the same outcomes, and they're not considering, maybe I need to make a Different choice. I wonder what that is, because maybe then I'll get a different result, you know, and that's. That's a jail cell. That's that trap.
- [71:45]
C
Absolutely. And I feel like a lot of the times, like I said, when I started working with Joe, I thought it was a joke, to be honest. I. I didn't understand it. I didn't see the validity in it. I didn't know how it was going to help me, because all I could think about was, how can I increase my play on the field.
- [72:00]
A
Well, because that's what they preached.
- [72:02]
C
Exactly. I mean. I mean, and that's the thing is, like, when you. When you go out there and you try everything, and I'm sitting here listening to Joe talk about, you know, the gap. I'm talking about, like, where I am my reality and where I want to be in the space in between. And, like, how I'm, you know, I can choose to live in fear and doubt myself and be critical, or I can choose to have peace. I can choose to love where I'm at in my situation and make the most of it. And I'm sitting here going, how. How the. How the heck am I supposed to love what I'm doing right now? I was like, I'm thinking about it way too literally. And it wasn't like, I'm supposed to love what I'm doing right now. I'm supposed to love myself.
- [72:42]
A
Yeah.
- [72:43]
C
Regardless of what's happening. And the thing is, I just wasn't pleased with myself because I was. I was identifying myself and things that weren't important, and I had to really reel myself back in and just say, I'm going to be okay. Either way, it's going to be okay. And I remember you talking to me about this a lot, too, is like, guys put so much pressure on themselves, and you see them drive themselves out of the game, and not everyone can handle that. And the thing is, like you said, you almost have to lose yourself and lose the goal and the dream so that you can actually obtain it and it'll free you up to play. And that's such a hard concept to grasp, because as young athletes, we're always taught if you work hard, you put in the work that it's going to work out. You can hard work yourself through everything. And that is true to a certain extent. But once you reach a certain point, you have to be able to evolve. Like we said, you have to be able to. Those choices that you make that get you to a certain point might be the ones that are now holding you back. And I had to change. I had to realize that I had everything I needed to be physically successful in the game. But I wasn't putting myself in a position to use those tools because I was crippling myself mentally because I couldn't change my thought process. I was. I was disabling myself. I was paralyzing myself. I would go into the box with this plan of exactly what I wanted to do, and thinking about this move and being on time, and I got to put four balls in play today, and it's the pitch I'm looking for, and I don't even move. I paralyzed myself. And for the life of me, I couldn't understand why that would happen. That didn't make sense to me. And. And now I realize it was a sign. I was like, you're not focusing on the right things. You've got to put yourself into a situation where you can thrive. You got to put your. You got to get out of that jail cell. You got to put yourself into an area surrounded by people who push you to be better in the right ways so you can go out and thrive and be you. And it's so difficult to do that. It seems so scary because, like you said, why would I stop thinking this way? It got me here, didn't it? It's supposed to keep working. It's worked so far. And then you start. You said you start to become real reactive instead of proactive, and you're looking around and you're defensive and you're not yourself anymore. You don't even realize it. 1.
- [75:11]
A
It's, it's. It's funny because I feel like so many people, even though they're not enjoying where they're at, struggling, are like, well, but it's still better than if I was in high A, right? I mean, double A. Not really loving this, but it's better than high. So, like, I'm afraid that I'm going to try something, it's not going to work, and I'm going to fall on my face. Yeah, I'm realizing what time it is. Last question. Because a lot of parents listen to this podcast. What's something that you would tell a parent who's. Who's currently their kid is, you know, 15, 16 years old, who absolutely loved this episode. What's something that you would tell them? Whatever you want.
- [75:50]
C
I would. I would tell them that maybe there's. What were you talking about earlier? Alternate worlds.
- [75:55]
A
Not him.
- [75:57]
C
Alternate universe. I would say maybe there's an alternate universe where Jordan is The goat. I've been sitting on the 20 minutes waiting for it.
- [76:06]
A
I love it.
- [76:06]
C
I'm sitting over here just smiling, going.
- [76:08]
A
When am I going to use this? Yeah, when am I going to use this?
- [76:10]
B
I had to sit out some jokes too.
- [76:12]
C
So no, what I would tell them is, I would say, so obviously this is different. If you're not a believer in Christ, a lot of the things we say might not make a lot of sense to you because we talk about this Christ guy a lot and how he's the reason for a lot of things. And if you don't have a relationship with him, that would be what I would tell you to do. Because it doesn't matter what you do in your life, if you don't have a relationship with Christ, everything's going to be confusing. But if you do and you have this relationship and if your kid was. Is pursuing baseball or any other sport, I would tell them to. I would tell them to pray about it. And I would say, look at yourself in the mirror and look at the things that you're telling yourself. And if you really, really love this game, to just. To just like in. In. Joe can help me with this one. But you can really just walk out of that jail cell and just know that no matter what, whether you succeed or fail, the success does not lie in reaching the end goal. It lies in the journey. And I know that's easy for me to say for a guy who just made it to a mountaintop or one of the. Hopefully just one of them, but it truly is because I remember the person that I was in high school and the person that I was in college and then the person that I was on September 12th, and they're not the same person. And I feel like if you go through your playing career and you don't evolve as a person as well as a player, then you. Then you're not doing it right. And for me, I evolved as a player, but I wasn't evolving as a person and I needed to step up again. We talk about, I wanted to be a consistent hitter. I wanted to be a competitive hitter. Well, Joe looked at me in the mirror and he said, how can he. How can you be a consistent baseball player if you can't be a consistent person? And I said, that's crazy. That is crazy to think about how showing up to a meeting on time or going to bed on time or stuff like that and just showing up for yourself can lead to consistency on the field. But I would say look at. If you're not Seeing the results that you want, look at yourself in the mirror and it's maybe not necessarily a game adjustment. Maybe you're, maybe you're not telling yourself the right things. And I would say you can be whatever person you want to be. You can elect to be that person every single day, whether you're actually there or not. I chose, I chose to love myself, give myself grace, and act like a big leaguer every day, even though I wasn't one. Until one day I woke up and I was. And at that point I had evolved so much as a person to where I was able to go out, I was able to play and be free. And it's a liberating feeling. And you don't. And the thing, the crazy thing is I've been a guy who laughed at mental skills training before and all those types of things. I've been on both sides. And until you actually start to dive in and unlock those things that you may not even realize exist, it does seem far fetched. It does seem a little crazy, a little weird. But then you start to realize, like, man, maybe there's some validity to this. And once you really dive in and take a look at yourself, you realize a lot of the stuff you do might be the thing that's holding you back. Maybe it's not the fact that you don't throw 90 or that you don't run a certain. A certain 60. Maybe, maybe you're just not allowing yourself to do those things and it's, it's all perspective. That's what I would say. And if you really love the game, then go for it. Yeah, that's what I would say. If you really love what? If you really love the game and that's what you want to do, talk to God about it and go for it. Don't be intimidated by anybody and don't let anyone tell you what it is or is impossible. Because I had a lot of people tell me that it was unlikely and it was impossible. But I mean, we're powerful people, guys, and, and we, and the sky's the limit for us if we can surround ourselves with good people and, you know, put our faith in a savior who actually is in control of everything. So I think that's what I would say.
- [80:28]
B
Come on.
- [80:28]
A
Amen. Shout out to Bob and Cassandra, the Legends. They raised a good one.
- [80:34]
B
Raise a real one.
- [80:35]
C
Love you guys. All right, guys, that was awesome.
- [80:41]
B
Sa.