← Most Valuable Agent with Matt Hannaford
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- [00:13]
A
All right, So I am joined today by someone who I've known for quite a long time. I'm aging myself because you. You've been in the business a little bit longer than I have, but so fat. You were the general manager, I guess, most recently the Minnesota Twins, from, I think it was 17 to 2024. Prior to that, you were an assistant GM with the Texas Rangers starting in what, like the mid-2000s, right?
- [00:34]
B
That's right, yeah. 2006.
- [00:36]
A
2006. And then before that, the. The Rockies, I think the Dodgers at one point. So you've. You've worn many hats.
- [00:45]
B
Yeah, I started with the Dodgers. It was an academic internship. Back when you were allowed to abuse students and not pay them. I got academic credit.
- [00:52]
A
I was one of those interns. I got abused. So I can empathize.
- [00:56]
B
I think that's the tie that binds all of us together is the love of baseball and the abuse being abused as an intern at some point in our careers.
- [01:03]
A
Yeah, it certainly makes you appreciate it as you work your way up. You know, you've kind of. You've cut your teeth doing a little bit of everything, so that's great.
- [01:11]
B
Well, and, you know, on. On the baseball side, there are two sides to the business. There's the business side, and then there's the baseball side. All of us aspired to work in baseball, but the reality is my internship was on the business side. I was working for the Dodgers while going to grad school at ucla, but I was working their business development side. And I was thinking at the beginning that I would just have to do that for five, six years, hopefully align myself with somebody on the baseball side who would be charitable enough to bring me over. But in practice, what happened was, once I graduated from graduate school, I applied to the Colorado Rockies for a marketing job that I was grossly overqualified for. They rejected me, and 10 days later, they hired me for a baseball job I was probably significantly under qualified for. So I jump started the career, got right into baseball kind of haphazardly.
- [01:57]
A
What was the baseball job that they hired you for?
- [01:59]
B
So at that time, you know, and this, once again, this won't be the first time I date myself in this conversation, but we. We. We literally had like 12 to 14 people who worked full time in the front office at that time. So I was hired to be an advanced scout. So there were two of us. One of us worked on the pitching side, one of us worked on the offensive side. And so you basically are either preparing for the opposition one side or the other. And so I was working with a gentleman by the name of Paul Hurford. He was responsible for scouting our team. I was responsible for scouting the opposing team. And then really, as a glorified intern, I was sitting down with the pitching coach at the time, who was Bob Apada. The hitting coach was Clint Hurdle. And we were devising strategies of how to beat the opposition. And at that time, the data didn't come formatted. We had to create it ourselves. So I was watching VHS tapes, if any of your listeners are old enough to remember what those things were. And the average game in Colorado at that time was four hours. And so would take me about six hours to clip every pitch from a game, map it to video, and then create a stat package that came out of that. And if, God forbid, anything failed along the way, I'd have to start all over. So, you know, it's taken me, on average about six hours to prepare every single game. You do four, five games at a time to prepare for the opposition. And then I was sitting down at a very, you know, inexperienced time in my career with guys who were veteran big league pitching and hitting coaches. And then we would sit down with the hitters and pitchers and try to explain to them how we could beat the opposition.
- [03:31]
A
What a great learning. Like, honestly, if I think about how to start out in a career to eventually have aspirations of being a general manager, like the fact that you got to spend time really wrestling with some of those hard decisions that you're. You're seeing the, the coaching staff need to make, I mean, that's gold.
- [03:50]
B
And Matt, I'm sure you can attest to the same early in your career, like, aligning yourself with the right mentors is just exceptional. So Dan o' Dowd was the general manager at the time, and he kind of espoused this mentality of, if you're talented enough, I'm going to throw you in the deep end and see if you can swim. It was a kind of a total immersion program. And was it then, if you could swim in the deep end, I'm going to throw a barracuda in there. And if you survive that, I'm going to plug in a toaster and throw it in there and see who's still left standing. And all of a sudden you looked up, and five years into my career, I probably had done 10 years worth of development. So the next offshoot was once I realized I had a facility with statistics, they asked me kind of if I had the same facility with finances. And so then I Found myself supporting. Dan o' Dowd was the general manager. Josh Burns was the assistant gm. And they did most of the contract negotiations and trade negotiations. And now all of a sudden, I'm supporting them because I was able to be competent enough to step up and help them and make their jobs easier. And then from there, it really took off.
- [04:49]
A
So was Gio there then?
- [04:51]
B
So, Gyvo, I. I started my career with Gio when I was an intern with the Dodgers. Bill Gad, whose nickname is Gyvo, was the assistant gm. Kevin Malone was the general manager at the time, and it was Givo who took me under his wing. So I was working the day shift in business development. And then for the games, Givo would ask me if I wanted to stick around and, you know, kind of keep my mouth shut and just listen to what he had to say during the games. And so he was my first mentor in the game in baseball and is still a dear friend to this day. So when I started in Colorado, Colorado, he was not yet with the Rockies, but he joined pretty soon thereafter.
- [05:28]
A
Yeah, so Gyvo has been on this podcast. Gyvo, who, you know, went to Sacramento City College before I did, has been someone that I've always leaned on in this business. He's clearly knows what he's talking about from the baseball standpoint. So, yeah, getting. Getting his expertise on this podcast was valuable. So hopefully some of the listeners, when I said Givo, they kind of knew who I was talking about, but that I want to talk a little bit about. So one of the things that you're doing now today is you actually have your own podcast. So let me. I want to. I want to read something. Well, the podcast, for everybody who's listening, who wants to go check it out. It's called Rosters to Rings. And you say on this. On this podcast, you say, due to competitive reasons, league rules, ownership directives, and extreme discretion, general managers share approximately 40% of what they know and experience with fans. At the Rosters to Ring podcast, we're here to share as much as the other 60% as we can. We will dive deep into not only what decisions are made, but how and why they are made, the strategic nature of negotiations, roster constructions, the characters that make up the game, and the true depth of relationships between executives, coaches, players, agents, media, and fans, which I think tees up perfectly what I want to kind of get in and talk to you about today. So I think this is a great segue, being that you're somebody who's worked in various roles in major league organizations. Again, most recently as the general manager. Talk to me a little bit about. Because my listener, you know, they're parents of players who have aspirations of being big league players. You know, their kids are probably anywhere from, let's say it's 10 to 18 years old. I want to talk a little bit about the draft. Is there an experience that you had out of the draft, whether it was as a GM or somewhere in between, that really sat with you and you kind of still. It's the first one that comes to mind, that experience that jumps out that you maybe want to talk about.
- [07:21]
B
Yeah, well, so I, I want to talk a little bit about the process for the, the families to understand what's going on the other side in terms of the scrutiny of the, the players that your sons. So, you know, I think one of the things that has really evolved in the game, Matt, for over the last 10 years is just how sophisticated we evaluate talent now. You know, it used to be very subjective, where a bunch of scouts would sit down, we literally would have a whiteboard and about 500 magnets. One of them would have your son's name on it. And we'd systematically go through all the right hand pitchers in the draft, all the left hand pitchers, then all the catchers and so on and so forth. And then we would start blending those lists together. Well, now we're using a lot of models and data driven systems to at least provide ourselves with, with the baseline of, here's how we would evaluate the top 300. But I want to like just share a few things that go into those evaluations that maybe are beyond just what you see on the field. So of course we're taking into consideration talent and how hard your son can throw or how hard he can hit a ball or how fast he can run. But I think where we've now really shifted the talent evaluation standpoint from the scouting is what, what are the other little things they're doing? You know, so I think where I have found the most success in terms of drafting players is how, what, what is your son doing when nobody's looking? You know, are they the types of people who continue to go above and beyond? Like we ascribe a lot of character values to that. And don't get me wrong, I don't think any team is saying whatever your son presents as being a 17 year old or even a 21 year old in college is what he will be in perpetuity. But there are some underlying markers. You know, it's more than just Running out, the infield popup. I think it's more of like, what are they doing when no one's looking? Is your. Is the player the type of person who would rather go oh for three and win or go two for three and lose? Are they helping their teammates around them? And you know, just one analogy that I always looked at as an executive in baseball is I always felt whether it's the trading deadline, whether it's the off season, I could always buy muscle. And muscle showed up in the form of, say it's 90 RBI or it's, it's 30 home runs, or it's 180 innings pitch for a pitcher. Like, I can get on the phone with Matt and I can negotiate a deal for one of his free agents, provided I'm willing to meet his asking price. Or I can negotiate with a general manager and I could pay the prospect price to acquire a player and trade. The players who I think were the, the separators were the guys who had, were the heart and soul players. These are the guys that, you know, no matter what, like, teams weren't giving up. At times, they were the best players on the team. But the values that they had, and this is what we hunted in the draft, is they were forced multipliers. These were guys who genuinely had the ability to elevate the level of play of the players around them, set a standard of excellence, hold people to that standard of excellence. But then they also had the genuine care to invest in doing that on a daily basis. These are the guys that always left you scratching your head a little bit, like, I wonder why this player has had a longer career than most. Like I hearken back to the Cubs finally broke their curse and won the World Series. And Chris Bryant and Javi Baez and Ben Zo. And all these guys were interviewed and Anthony Rizzo. And the name they always brought up was, was Ross. Like David Ross was the guy who they thought was a leader on that team. For a lot of us, we were scratching our head and wondering, how is David Ross even still active on this team? You know, he's kind of a little bit past his prime. But each of them said that this was the guy that was the glue that kept us all together. He was the guy who elevated the level of play of everyone in the clubhouse. So I think there's guys in there that we're hunting for in the draft. Like, talent is something we can enhance once you get into player development system. But when you walk in the door with these leadership qualities, whether they're, you know, fledgling or developed. I think these are the things that we're really hunting because these are the guys that we see over the course of their careers. And Matt, I'm guessing these are the exact types of guys you want to represent. Obviously you want to represent the most talent you can, but. But these guys are the guys who eke out an extra two to three years of their careers. These are guys are the guys that we seek in because every team is looking for those guys who, you know, whether they want to win more than everyone else or they just don't like losing more than everybody else, they're the guys that set the tone in the clubhouse and in a sport where there's a lot of individual performance, these are the guys that bring the whole teams together. So that's the one thing I would just like to share with the listeners coming out of the draft is we're watching those things. You know, we would send our scouts to watch the players play their secondary sport. So let's say they're, they're baseball players, but also they run track or they play football or they play basketball. We're watching those games too, to see maybe they're the stars in baseball, but maybe they're a secondary player in their second sport. And how do they conduct themselves when maybe they aren't the featured player? Are they able to help their players, the other players, win? And the last thing I'll say, Matt, as an extension of this, is one thing I think we did very well in Texas, we adopted in Minnesota too, is when that player is in the farm system. Clearly a great prospect, came out of high school, was, you know, either a leadoff hitter, three hole hitter, four hole hitter. He was a premium player on the team. We would tell him, hey, listen, you're not playing tonight, there's no chance you're getting in the game. But figure out a way to help us win this game and then we try to guide him through that. Is it picking up a tell from the opposing team's pitcher? Is it, is it going to the kid who is 0 for 2, who probably is going to hit again in the seventh, eighth or ninth inning and picking him up and getting them focused and back in the game. But it's those types of qualities, I think, that then extend your career, give you additional consideration. Once again, talent is awesome. If you're the most talented player on the team, you're going to get extra opportunities. But if you're not the most talented player, most aren't. When you get into Professional baseball, the next way to extend your career is being one of these force multipliers that elevates everybody around you.
- [13:14]
A
Well, yeah, and I think a lot of the parents, when they hear that, they, you know, probably think, if I had to expect having conversations with these parents, they think, okay, so we need to show that this is what we are. Like, they start with that premise. And where I would tell people to pause is like, no, no, no, we're not trying to express something that doesn't exist. We first need to address, does this exist? And if it does, then yes, make sure that this player is aware that these are important things as well. But if it doesn't exist, well, how do we build those things? How do we create a player who, let's just say, is that guy who thinks, I'd rather get the team win than go 4 for 4. Funny enough. So Zach Cole is one of my clients who was fortunate to get called up to the big leagues last year with Houston. I just saw him two days ago and we had this exact conversation and he said to me, he goes, matt, there was a point in the season last year where he went 4 for 4 and they lost and he was so bummed out. And then the next day they ended up winning and he was 0 for 4, I think with like three strikeouts. And he goes, you just get to a place in your career where you realize, all I ever want to do is I just want to win, you know? And funny enough, Kurt Suzuki, who's a client of mine as well, who's now the manager of the Angels, we just had the same conversation as well, that, like, these aren't just words that we're saying. Like, this stuff not only is valued, but. But you guys study it and do everything in your power to get to a place where you fully understand, is this an act. Like, you're, you guys as an organization, you have enough resources, you're going to figure out if what they're trying to show you is genuine or not. Like, you're not going to be able to fake that long enough.
- [14:49]
B
Right? And Matt, just to be clear, when I talk about some of these leadership qualities, like, we're not holding a kid to the standard of being the guy who can stand up in front of the room and give a rousing five minute speech before the last game of a playoff series, like, that's not what we're talking about here. Like, that's a great quality, but those are few and far between. Like, a lot of what we're talking about is guys who do things behind the scenes, guys who lead by example. So there's space for the most introverted and the most extroverted person to contribute in this space and be evaluated on this front. So I think it's, it's aligning yourself with a coach or a mentor, whether that's a parent, it could be a representative, it could be a friend who identifies what is your skill set, put you in the best position to succeed and you the resources to do it, and then, then climb the ladder together with you. I think that's what we're trying to accomplish as best we can. When we talk about developing leadership, it's not all about the guy who gives the rah rah speech. Like there's probably only one or two of those guys on your team. And I, I'll just come up with an example. And you probably know this guy very well. Joe Ma was with the Twins for, we overlapped for two years. He's an exceptional player, first ballot, hall of Famer, you know, just an absolute a human being. But he wasn't the guy who necessarily felt super comfortable giving those rousing speeches. But what he did was led by exceptional example every day. And he had a tradition that he did after every game that we won, he gave out a game ball. And what he did was he had an incredible recall for everything that happened during the game that contributed to us winning. And he would talk about it. So he would talk about the fact that Eddie Rosario hit a three run homer, you know, in, in that Jose Burrios threw six innings and that was awesome. But the game ball went to Tyler Duffy. And Tyler Duffy was the guy who threw four outs when he was pitching on three consecutive days of pitching. He was kind of on fumes. But he picked us up, he got us to the back end of the bullpen. And so what he did remarkably was he acknowledged the guys that did the, the heavy lifting. But then he made, at that time there was a 25 man roster. Now there's a 26 man roster. He made the 25th man in the room feel like the 12th most important on the team. And everyone felt like they were contributing kind of above their station, so to speak. And not surprisingly, we won more games than we probably should have that year based upon just our talent level. Because I think everyone felt like they were much more valued as a part of the whole than otherwise they would have been treated bad.
- [17:09]
A
So as you guys evaluate these kids, talk to me a little bit about high school versus college. I mean, you know, all the numbers would show you if you were to look at them? Yeah, you know, let's just say a guy who signs for a million dollars out of high school versus a guy who signs for a million dollars out of college, there's a higher likelihood that the guy who signs out of college has a better chance of getting to the big leagues. Right now that can be a little misleading. You know, the college guy's a little bit older. There's a little bit more assurance. But what do you think the value is for an organization for players out of college versus high school?
- [17:41]
B
Yeah, so, I mean, I think some of the things we, we looked at, you know, it's risk profiles. So we, we have enough data now to understand the players who are similarly talented in similar talent bands. How do they do? And you kind of break them into four groups. One is whether it's high school or college, and then two is, is it a pitcher or position player? And I think there's a risk profile associated with each of them. So if you're evaluating, let's say assuming that you have a four players, one in each of those categories, they're all considered to have the same talent level. And I'm just speaking candidly here, I wish this wasn't the case, but the high school pitcher is the most risky, the college position player is the least risky, and then the, the college pitcher and the high school position player are kind of on a similar footing. And so if all things are equal, you're probably going to take the college position player early. Because the other thing that I think we've learned through the draft is it's much easier to find pitching later in the draft than it is impact position players. I think part of that is because we all have such developed pitching programs within our organizations. We all have pitching labs. Now. There's the offseason pitching programs that are, are so good, you know, at driveline and places like that, that there's, there's a real chance for significant gains made by pitchers. You don't see quite as the same level of significant gains on the position player side. So if you want to hunt position players, usually you're getting those guys in the impact position players at the top of the draft. So you see a lot of teams that are just taking position players almost regardless in the first round. What that allows for is in the second half of the first round, there's some exceptional deals you can get on pitchers because you may be picking the second, third, fourth best pitcher on the board, whereas your other Choice is the 14th best position. Player. So I think the teams that are picking the second half of the first round are getting some exceptional pitching there. But I know in Minnesota, we made tremendous strides by pitch picking, pitching, like rounds five through 10, let's say, and we were picking guys who were throwing 86 to 88. And we had supreme confidence in our ability to be able to add velocity. We had the ability to add a pitch to the repertoire. There's just no equivalent of that on the position player side where you're adding something that can so dramatically change the value of a player. So maybe in summation, Matt, to answer your, your question, I, I think in general, we're. We're probably hunting position players earlier in the draft and pitching, we're all a little bit more cautious about the high school pitcher. And we are then, you know, recognizing that there's a finite amount of elite college pitching and there's a lot of opportunities later in the draft to take high school and college pitching and know that you're going to see a lot of gains within their talent, their talent profiles.
- [20:29]
A
Yeah. And I think from an outsider's perspective, just looking at drafts from one year to the next, I think a lot of people would get hung up on trends. Oh, well, it looks like this organization does this every single year. And I think, you know, it's something to look at, but it's, it's also extremely misleading if you're not careful, because obviously certain drafts are heavy in certain positions, you know, heavy in college versus high school, etc. But from an organization's perspective, how would you guys incorporate what you already have in your system to determine what you're going to take at the top of the draft?
- [21:04]
B
I think it's a great question, Matt, because I think it's really prevalent in the other sports. You know, you see in the NBA, the NFL, even the NHL, I'm less familiar there. But, you know, guys are coming right out of the draft and impacting those leagues. That does not happen in baseball. So I think the vast majority, if not all teams at this point are taking the best available talent when their spot comes up, because in practice, the best college players are still probably taking one to three years to get to the big leagues. The, you know, Trey O. Savage is a great example of a guy who almost came directly. Anaheim has been taking a lot of their guys from right out of the draft pool right into the big leagues. That seems to be a priority for them to get guys to the big leagues as quickly as possible. But by and large, it's a One to three year process for the best college players. It's a three to four year process for the best high school players. So for us to prognosticate what we're going to need two to four years down the road is really challenging to do. So I think most teams are taking the best player available. One other thing just to share from a philosophical standpoint on the draft is I, I think, you know, it is really difficult to make it to the big leagues. It's extremely difficult to make it as a premium position player, which is to say most of us are building up the middle of our team. So we're prioritizing catching shortstops, center fielders and starting pitching like that's where you start. And part of the reason for that is if a shortstop gets a little bit bigger, a little bit stronger, you can move them to second base or you can move them to third base. If you have a center fielder who gets a little bit slower because he gets stronger, more powerful, you can move them to left field and right field. Once you move a guy from short top to second base, the next move is to third base, the next move is to first base. So there's opportunities. If they become less versatile defensively, they still have positions to go to. Whereas if you're drafting a guy who's a first baseman and he had all, you know, kind of downgrades defensively, he's really becoming a DH at that point. Maybe he could play right field or left field, but there's not a lot of options to go from there. So you want the most athletic defender and versatile defender you can because that gives you much more of a Runway. In the event that he can't play his featured position, there's still, there's still ways he can still contribute defensively. When you start drafting, you know, third baseman, maybe they can go to first base, maybe they can go to corner outfield, but then the next move is probably dh. And so that's where I think we are prioritizing those up the middle guys as another means of separation in the draft. And that's why you see oftentimes in the first round of the draft, a lot of shortstops go pretty quickly. And then you start seeing some other positions come off the board.
- [23:42]
A
Talk a little bit. Cause you mentioned this, that high school pitching and really high school right handed pitching, I think too is a tremendous risk. Why do you think that is? Talk a little bit about that because I think that's a great point that a lot of parents who aren't familiar with the draft and its intricacies. Understand, you know, you, you, you have a perfect game ranking who ranks this high school right handed pitcher really high and they think, oh well that equates to him being a first round pick. That's just how it works. I've oftentimes told families as you go into the draft, I know there's this assumption like oh well there's, if I'm a first rounder, there's 30 teams for me to go to in the first round. It's like, well wait a second, some of those teams are going to go college if you're a high school kid. Right. So let's just say half are going to go college. All right, well that's 15 teams. Then you have. And then some of those 15 teams are going to go position player and not pitcher. So now we're talking about seven or eight teams in the first round that actually may take you. Now where do you stack up with those seven or eight teams? So I guess talk a little bit about that high school pitcher and why that is so risky.
- [24:44]
B
Yeah, and I think that's kind of a newer development, Matt. You know, 10, 10 years ago, I think you saw a lot more high school pitchers, high school righties who would go off the board early. So I guess I would just say this, like there's kind of a collision course in our sport right now where these two things are true. The harder you throw, the tougher it is to hit you as a, as a pitcher. The harder you throw, the more likely you are to get hurt. So those two things are happening simultaneously. So to be a high school pitcher who attracts first round attention, you probably have well above average velocity. So you're throwing in the mid to potentially upper 90s. And if you're doing that as a very young man, when you haven't maybe fully developed physically, I think the risk of injury is heightened and that's just unfortunately a reality. So it's not to downgrade their talent or potentially their ability to be an impact big leaguer. I think it's just an awareness that there may be more likely that that player is to get hurt than his college counterpart who's already developed a little bit more physically. We referenced earlier, we, we've had a lot of success or we had a lot of success when I was with Minnesota of drafting pitchers who were throwing in the upper 80s and then putting four to five miles an hour, sometimes six to seven on their arms and all of a sudden now they're throwing harder. The kid who's Throwing that hard, that early, I think is just a, it's unfortunately just a higher health risk. The other thing I would say is, you know, in baseball, the evaluation process, there's so many of these showcase events which are, are great. You know, I think we're, we're partners with so many of these groups. And, you know, you referenced Perfect Game as one of the, one of the best in the, in the country. But in those formats, these kids are throwing, you know, oftentimes one or two inning at a time, and they get the most attention if they light up the radar gun. So when we're, when we're evaluating those kids, we can speak very clearly to their ability to overpower hitters in short stints. But what we don't get a sense for is because they're so far ahead of the hitters in some cases, how do they go a second time through the order? How do they set guys up? How do they think through scenarios? From a pitching perspective, we gain a lot of insights into that if they go to college and they're facing players who are a little bit more at their level. And so I think that's a secondary benefit of watching kids who are pitchers go through colleges. You get a sense of how, how good of a pitcher they're going to be. I think coming out of high school, we have a better sense of how good of a thrower they are through, through the pitch, the, the college process, I think we gain insights as to how good of a pitcher they're going to be.
- [27:12]
A
Yeah. So on that note, I've grown to really respect Wes Johnson, who obviously, you know, because he was the pitching coach for the Minnesota Twins at one point. How do major league organizations view kind of the coaching staff at the college level? Have they, have they worked well with guys? And how have those guys developed? Like, how much homework are you guys either doing on that or how much, how much value do you place on a player going to an LSU or a Georgia or an Arkansas or schools like this who have a track record for doing a good job?
- [27:47]
B
You know, Matt, you brought it up earlier. I was going to mention this when you were talking about how you profile each team. And sometimes teams have tendencies. You know, I think of the Seattle Mariners have done an excellent job of drafting pitching in the first round when most of us are going position player. And they've developed those guys exceptionally well. I think the game of baseball is all about talent evaluation. You know, I think we conventionally think of it as, okay, okay, you see three shortstops Playing in a workout. How do you rank them? 1, 2, and 3. But I think in practice, like, part of my job was having a, you know, scouting report on you and all the agents, so that every conversation I had with you ideally was better than the last one, you know, and similarly, I'm. I have a scouting report on all the GMs and assistant GMs, the guys who I didn't negotiate with, so that I could facilitate, you know, a better and more efficient conversation. But I think the same thing is going on in the college game. You know, we're. We're assessing each of these schools, and I think we know that some of them are really good at developing pitching, some are really good at developing position players. Some of them are really good at developing catching, for argument's sake. And I think that's a real thing. The other thing I would say, as it pertains is I think there was a time in the college game similar. Similar to the big leagues. The big leagues, it used to be like every team had their quote, unquote way of doing things. There was the Texas Rangers way, the New York Yankees way, the Oakland Athletics way, and those were linked to the manager. And if you didn't, you know, subscribe to that, you were going to get traded. You're. You're out of that system now. In the big leagues, every team that is successful tailors to get the best out of every player. There's no singular way of doing things like we're in the business of facilitating you being the best version of yourself. I think college is a little bit behind in that regard. I think there still is kind of a sense of, when you talk about some of the guys coming out of Tennessee or Georgia, as you reference, like, maybe there's a specific way, but the most sophisticated guys, they're getting the most out of the talent because there's such, you know, a turnover in the roster year over year with the transfer portal. They've got to be able to attract every type of talent, not just the talent that they feel comfortable coaching. So I think there's more cross collaboration in the sense that each of these programs is really doing a great job of getting the most out of their players. And then the last component of this, as you know, is so many of these guys are crossing over to the big leagues now. You know, Tony Vitallo just was hired, you know, longtime, exceptionally successful coach at University of Tennessee. He's had a few stops along the way. He's now the head coach or, you know, he's now what is called the manager. We call him the manager in the big leagues of the San Francisco Giants, having no big league experience. You mentioned Wes Johnson came to the big leagues from. From college. Derek Johnson did the same thing. Pat Murphy was a longtime, you know, very successful college coach is probably going to win the manager of the year for the second time in a row in the National League. There's a lot of crossing going on right now between college coaching, professional coaching. So I think we have a heightened appreciation of what they're doing, but we're talking to these guys on a constant basis because we're getting better from having conversations with college coaching, understanding what they're doing to develop talent.
- [30:48]
A
Yeah, I think for the game of baseball as a whole to just continue to move in the right direction, we obviously need every level, whether that's the minor leagues, college, high school, to be really good at working with players. Right. In a very smart way, in a very safe way. And so the more college coaches or high school coaches or travel ball organizations that are educated, that do things the right way, I think it's ultimately better for everybody. Because if. If you see a kid, let's just say, who's getting abused in high school because he's throwing way too much, he gets in a pro ball, and then he has an arm injury, right? And then now you're stuck having to deal with, you know, this. And. And it wasn't anything that you guys necessarily did. It was really a byproduct of what he was doing from the age of 14 to 17. Right. So I think on some level there is incentive for everybody to really be aware of this and try to help out all of the different levels. So I love that you guys do communicate with. With those colleges. I also know that the colleges oftentimes can provide you guys a ton of information on the player, both on the pitching side, if it's a pitcher, on the, you know, position player side, if it's a position player, but also on the mental side, like, on some level, I have to imagine through your relationships, you're talking to these coaches saying, tell me about this kid. Right? Because the college coach is going to know, does he actually work hard? All the things that you described at the beginning of this podcast that you guys would value, right? Like the David Ross is of the world. Is he a David Ross or is he somebody else? Getting that information is extremely valuable. So if you have these relationships, naturally, I would expect that you guys kind of lean on that to, you know, help fill in the gaps, you know, of any information that's lacking.
- [32:26]
B
Yeah, I mean, Matt, I think you just, you nailed it. I think there's been an evolution in the relationship with a college coach. It used to be when we didn't have much data, it was talking to them about like, hey, can you give me a scouting report on this kid? Like, how hard does he hit it in practice? Like, what does his BP look like? And all those things. Then we all sudden got to a point where we had so much data that we didn't really rely on them for the breakdown of the talents. But we're now breaking down. What does it look like when we're not looking? Like, what is he like in your locker room? Is he adaptable? Is he somebody that you can coach up and, and he takes criticism. Is he a learner who you need to talk to or you need to, you know, show him video to, to, to be able to get him to maneuver. How long does it take him to make some of these transitions? Because the best players in the game, the game's always adjusting to them. The ones who can adjust back are the ones who have longer careers. Like, did they demonstrate an ability to do that in, in college or, or in the high school game? And like, what type of citizen is this guy? You know, like, yeah, I have often thought like the best, you know, stars do drive the game. You know, we just saw it in the World Series. The stars were shining throughout this whole playoffs, which was wonderful. But the, you know, the best players have a lot of talent for sure. They also have to be available. They have to take care of themselves so that they can play as many games and contribute as much as they possibly can. And then if you hit the trifecta, they also are great human beings, you know, and then you see the guys who maybe aren't the great human being now, it detracts from the talent they contribute. And you don't want these guys to be detracting from. And we see that across all sports where you have challenges, where players who are your star players are also your biggest problem. Like that's, that's a real negative. When they're additive to your clubhouse and they're exceptional on the, on the ball field, that's the star player that you want to pursue. Those are the guys, you know, like the Austin Riley's of the world that you're signing to, to what you hope will be deals that span their entire career because you know how positive they are both on and off the field. Most guys aren't able to go three for four every night. So are they able to contribute when they go 1 for 4 or, oh, for 4 or, you know, have an O for 18, are they still making contributions? If the answer to that is yes, those are the guys you want to lock up for their careers.
- [34:35]
A
Yeah. What's interesting, Thad, is where my mind goes with this. And I would assume you share in this ability. Now, we both got into the game. We obviously played in college. You went to Haverford, which I do need to give a shout out to, because I feel like they produce more MLB executives than maybe any other school, if I'm not mistaken. Right.
- [34:57]
B
Yeah. It's gotta be up there, considering how small the school is. It's been incredible, the pipeline, which has just been wonderful to be part of.
- [35:02]
A
But so obviously we played college baseball. We get into this game and, you know, we're watching a ton of baseball, right? And I would assume when you first got started, you're like, oh, that guy looks good. And you're seeing these things, and you may say, oh, man, I think this guy can be. You know, he's got a chance to be really good. And then over time, you see the. You know, how his. How his career pans out, and you're like, well, I never really made it. I remember there's a story. So Joey Vada, who was a client of ours, and there was another player, which I won't name, signed both of these players at the same, same time. Both were in low A with the Cincinnati Reds. And these players both, at that point were just the most physical, the most gifted players. There's no world I could know which player was going to be the better player at that point. And then you see how their careers panned out. They both got to the big leagues, but Joey Votta goes on to be, you know, the Joey Votta who signs for $225 million, who, you know, was a MVP winner. And then the other player, you know, had a cup of coffee, but, you know, kept going up and down. And now, as I reflect back on that, Joey Votto, funny enough, was the guy who, when he stepped foot in the stadium, there was like a flip that switched. And this guy was like an absolute animal. And he was just so. It reminds me a little bit about, like, a racehorse who's got blinders on. Like, he had one thing on his mind, and it was, how am I going to get better today? And so you now see that, and it's like, well, now it's no wonder that Joey Votto had that career that he had this other player didn't possess that. And so now I imagine as you watch baseball games, you're able to see so much more. Even if it was still only 15, 20 seconds of you watching a kid, you're paying attention to things that maybe come naturally to you now that you never possessed early. I share that because a lot of parents go to these travel ball events and they see these players and they're like, my son's better than that kid. Right. Why is my kid not getting the, the, the credit or getting the opportunities to do all this other stuff? And the point I'm trying to make is the people in this business who get paid to evaluate, there's like, there's a way in which they do it. There's a lot of. And I'm not saying that the draft is perfect by any means, but there's a lot that goes into it, that it's, it's more than just the, the 15 or 20 second clip that you're going to see of the kid. You're not, you're not investing millions of dollars into a kid without a really decent amount of assurance that this kid actually is going to be worth that money. Not necessarily a question there, but I would imagine as you reflect back on your evolution as just a baseball mind, I have to imagine who you are today compared to who you were in 1999 when you started, is vastly different.
- [37:41]
B
I have more gray hair, maybe a little bit taller. Yeah, is what I, I would say.
- [37:46]
A
I don't see any gray. I, I got gray.
- [37:48]
B
Yeah, right. It's distinguished. I, I want to build off some of the stuff you were talking about there, Matt. So, you know, to the listener, they may not realize this, but something MLB has implemented in the last five years is what, you know, a, a kind of a version of a MLB combine that happens before the draft. And I would tell you, the thing that we get the most out of that is not lining all the kids up at shortstop and seeing how they do taking ground balls, not, you know, clocking them running around the bases or how hard they get hit. It's the fact that we get to have an interview with the kid, and that is invaluable. And now that is factoring into all of our models. It's moving players up and down the board based upon our perception of, you know, fundamentally. Like, when you talk about a guy like Joey Votto, it's like, how, you know, this may sound naive to say this, but how much do they love the game of baseball? You know, they're they're. They're people who I've been around. I'm sure you can attest the same who are massively talented, but they're kind of bummed that they didn't get drafted to be in the NBA or they really were hockey fans growing up, and they just happened to be playing baseball. Most of those guys don't realize their potential because they don't love the game. So there has to be, like, a base level of love for the game, but the elite guys tend to really love it. There's also a sense of, like, we all want to win, but what are you prepared to do to win? And. And the answer is like, also, like, what are you prepared to do to be great? And I think at the end of the day, there's no shame in saying, I'm very content being good. But the game doesn't necessarily reward hard triers and hard hopeers. It rewards people who end up taking risks to be great. So as you sit here and you're a very good high school player, you're a very good college player, but, you know, your agent or your coach or your parents tell you, hey, there's this area of your game you need to work on. Are you prepared to do it before you have to or after the game tells you you're not good enough anymore? And the kids who are doing it, you know, kind of proactively, I think, are the ones who excel, because you have to be willing to risk goodness to get to greatness, to excel at a game that is so challenging as baseball is, especially as you start moving through the minor leagues and you have designs of getting to the big league. So my guess is, and I don't know Joey Votto like you do, my guess is he hated losing more than most, he loved the game more than most, and he was constantly willing to take risks of. However good I am today, how can I become better tomorrow? And. And not just resting on goodness and aspiring to greatness, because those are the guys who extend their careers. Those are the guys who get the most out of their talent. Because we could all cite guys who unfortunately were massively talented, didn't have the work ethic, didn't have the love of the game, didn't have that willingness to proactively try to get better today to, you know, in advance of that, that weakness getting exposed tomorrow. Once the weakness gets exposed, it's really tough to counteract that unless you're a step ahead.
- [40:36]
A
Yeah, I. I couldn't agree more. I think what's interesting About Joey is Joey treated baseball like an art form. Like he was an artist, right? He was, he was, he was treating baseball truly like, I, I need to perfect this craft. And on some level you, you could hear that and think, oh, that, that also could be a bad thing. And on some level, maybe it could be a bad thing. But he had this balance with it that he was really fascinated about how good he could possibly be. And Joey was similar to the other guy that you were talking about who really just wanted to, you know, add value to other, like Joe Maurer. I think it was Joe that you were saying, like, he's not necessarily the guy that's going to be the rah rah guy. You know, he gets called up to the big leagues and Ken Griffey Jr. Is on his team. Like, Joey's not going to be the boisterous guy in the clubhouse telling people what to do.
- [41:24]
B
That's.
- [41:24]
A
That was Kenny's job. That was, you know, Adam Dunn's job. That those guys were the ones that were responsible for that. But Joey was somebody who, he showed you how you should work, right? And he was going to be the first guy there and the last one to leave, no matter what. And that is something that I think every player and every family should take from this is there's value that I place on it. There's value you as a general manager, you guys placed on it.
- [41:49]
B
One thing, if I may throw in there, like, I think it's important to the coaches, value that. So talent is going to carry you, as you know, further than anything. But if you've got a great work ethic and you're busting your tail, the coaches want to put you in positions to succeed. Now it, it requires you to be part of that. Like, there's a player plan for every single individual player that is co authored by the players, I think in the best setting. But fundamentally, we're trying to challenge you appropriately, but give you the best resources to excel. But then ideally, the coach is getting in the boat and rowing with you to try to achieve that accomplishment. And then when you collectively achieve the accomplishment, now here's the next goal and challenge we have for you, and here's the next set of resources. So if you're working astride with the coach and putting in the effort, there's nothing they won't do to try to help you succeed.
- [42:37]
A
Yeah, and I really want parents to hear this, listening to what we're describing and what, what's valuable to organizations and what's valuable to coaches and and, and agents or GMs, there's a lot of this as they look at their son, they may look at him and say, I don't know that he possesses these things that you're describing that you guys find value in. I'm not sure that he possesses that. At the end of the day, it is teachable still. Now it doesn't mean though that you know, mom or dad telling the player is going to ultimately get them to do the thing that they want them to do. Because we've all seen players with so much God given talent. Mom and dad's been telling them this for years, agents been telling them this for years and they still don't do it. It takes them having to go through it their way, failing and then realizing, okay, wait a minute, I don't want to, I don't want to not reach my goal. Now I'm willing to do the work, right? And so to any mom and dad listening, that may happen for your son before he gets drafted. It may not though. It may be after he gets drafted. And there's on some level, and maybe this is just meant to take some pressure off the parent. It's not a matter of oh, you didn't deliver the information to the, to your son in the right way. This is life. We're all people, we're all learning, right? What is he made of? All to say as we meet these young players in the draft or in amateur baseball. This is why these in home visits matter, I imagine fab. This is why these questionnaires matter, right? This is why this information is needed from organizations. Am I right?
- [44:13]
B
100%. And I think once again, just to, just to really drive this point home, nobody is saying that a young man who's 17 years old or 20 years old is a finished product. Like they do not have to present the best self in that moment. Like we are very aware of how we can help support and develop them. So that is very true. I think the home visits, the questionnaires, the interviews at the combine, part of what that is doing for us is understanding what is the support system around this player, what motivates them, what drives them, where will they be able to tap into resources so we can supplement. The goal is to provide every one of these players with the resources to excel. But here's the relationship we're seeking. We're going to challenge you. We're going to give you every opportunity to excel based upon giving you elite resources. Your responsibility then is to do the best you can in that moment. And if you continue to do that, the flywheel will move forward. That doesn't mean succeeding necessarily, because success can be defined simply as, did they make the most of the opportunity here? It's not necessarily that he pitched an eight inning shutout or that he went three for four. It's, was he able to show progress in these moments given the challenge that was presented to them and the resources provided to them. So I, I think we are looking for every reason for the kid to succeed. But Matt, to echo your point, at some point, it's up to them. No, like we can, we can produce and create a lot of things. You know, some degree of drive has to come from within and work ethic has to come from within. We'll constantly support, we'll constantly provide resources to excel, but it's going to be up to that player ultimately at some point to say, you know, I'm going to dig my heels in today, and today's the day I get better.
- [45:54]
A
Yeah. One of the reasons why I'm such a fan of the combine and I've encouraged a lot of guys to go to the combine is I don't believe or subscribe to this belief like, oh, we need to hide ourself. You know, we need to protect this. And, well, we're, we're going so well that we don't want to do anything that ruins it. Like, I've never believed that anybody should make decisions out of fear. It should really be from a place of, I know how good I am. I'm willing to go. I want to go because I want to show everybody that I deserve to get taken actually higher, even if I'm a first round pick. Now, I recognize that doesn't mean 100% of the guys should go, but with all that being said, it is one of the reasons you mentioned the combine earlier. I did want to touch on that because it goes into that mindset of, like, you're not going to be able to hide yourself like this. This game is going to expose you at some point. And so I'd rather sharpen my sword early so that when I get the opportunity, like, I'm already, I'm already a better version of myself than I was a year ago, five years ago, whatever it is.
- [46:48]
B
Well, and Matt, I, I think when, if I were an agent and I was having a conversation with parents, you know, it's kind of the, the question is, what is our goal out of the draft? Do we view this as the biggest payday your son's ever going to have or do we think he's going to make it to the big leagues and there will be more paydays down the road. And I understand it's a tough road to get to the big leagues. It's an even tougher road to be a significant earner in the big leagues. But if your goal is to get the most money out of the draft, then we should play this to accomplish that and set. Sometimes that means show up at the combine because that will enhance my value. Sometimes it means don't show up at the combine because that could hurt my value. But I would be more inclined to say let's make sure we get your son into the place where he has the chance to be the best version of himself. Where that's going to be is where they know him the best. Right. And if there is some deficiency, like, let's make sure that's made known at the front end, and then the responsibility then falls back on your lap. Matt of like, okay, now let's map him to the places that has had the most success working with players with this profile. Because as much as we're scouting you, you're scouting us. And I'm sure you have like a list of if I have a pitcher or if I have a position player or if I have a guy with maybe a little, you know, makeup challenges or leadership challenges. These are the teams that have had the most success in my experience developing players like that. So now maybe I'm not hunting or positioning. They have to get the highest dollar, but rather I'm trying to engineer so they get to one of these four to six teams, because I just know that's going to be a better place for them to realize their earning potential, which I hope to be in the big leagues, not just on draft night. Yeah.
- [48:21]
A
So I want to go into, like, value of a player a little bit in. Out of the draft. Obviously, the money that a player signs for on some level is an investment by the organization into that player. How does that help the player as he is progressing through the minor leagues? And there's. There's a guy, and I'm not going to name him who comes to mind. A player who signed for a lot of money out of the draft. Millions and millions of dollars. And his career quickly derailed. He was a high school kid. Quickly derails. And, you know, I think this was four or five years ago. He's still with that same organization getting opportunity. And one would argue it's probably because he signed for multiple millions of dollars. If he signed for a hundred thousand dollars, he probably would have been released by now. How do you guys think about it from the front office's perspective? When you have these kids that you're investing in, what does that represent for you? That that money that you're giving them?
- [49:14]
B
So, so I, I think this was a little bit of a tough lesson to learn as an executive because I was raised by wonderful parents who really engendered in me and my sister the notion that we should treat everyone the same and we should treat everyone very fairly. And I think what you witness and what you're referencing here, Matt, is that the reality is I think in practice when you're dealing with a high end talent pool, you should treat everyone fairly for sure. But I'm not sure you should treat everyone the same. It's just not realistic. Like you are going to give people with more talent more consideration. And so let's say the signing bonus is a proxy for talent. So the kids who are signing for higher dollar amounts in some regards and some model and some scout scouting report were deemed to be the most talented players in that draft. So they are going to get a chance to fail maybe once, twice, three times more than their counterpart who was taken in the 20th round or was signed as a non drafted free agent. Just because there's a perception that if we can unlock their abilities they will have the chance to impact at the big league level well beyond their counterparts. And so I do think that's real. I'm not going to hide from that. I think think those kids are getting more consideration than others. But I've also seen it from the perspective you just shared. I've seen that where we have given them more, more opportunity, we put more pressure on a coaching staff to get something out of a player that clearly he can't deliver. And there is a sense at which like we have to own the mistakes we made, that hey, maybe we, we didn't evaluate his talent or maybe the work ethic is a little bit misaligned or maybe he's just too prone to injury and after a few injuries he's become something less than what we thought we drafted. Then compounding the problem I think is continuing to ask the player to deliver at a level which he's demonstrated he can't. Let's just allow that guy to slide into a role of being the best version of himself. And maybe we thought he was going to be a top of the rotation starter, but it's okay if he's a middle reliever when he gets the big leagues. That's still a success at some level. If we hold him to the standard of living up to his draft status, we may never allow him to be the best version of himself. So I think that's one school of thought. The other school of thought is once you draft a player and he gets into the game like he's got to hold his own, like you, at some point, it is a meritocracy. Yes, they're going to get extra consideration, but the game sorts that out very quickly. And you know, so from a, from a, in the clubhouse standpoint, like, I think the guys know who the best players are there. The coaches know who are the best players. It's the front office that sometimes holds on to this notion that this will make me look bad. I drafted this guy in the first round and two years later, maybe we're realizing either we have to put him into a much more junior role or release him. That's more on the front office than I think it is. The teammates and the coaches, they know talent when they see it.
- [52:00]
A
That. How, how does failure. I guess I'll ask it this way. I imagine as the general manager, you want to know when this guy fails, what he's made of, right? And I think about a guy who's a top prospect in the minor leagues, gets drafted, never really failed in, in amateur baseball, first round pick, works through the minor leagues, still hasn't really dealt with any failure. And there are plenty of guys in the big leagues right now, they don't get failure, they don't experience it until they get to the big leagues. As a general manager, are you almost hoping that that guy does face a level of failure in the minor leagues so that he can learn how to get out of it? Because on some level, like, you know, like the sophomore slump, we oftentimes talk about a kid who gets called up to the big leagues. Rookie year is amazing. And then sure enough, the opposing pitchers maybe get a book on the kid and now they're going to pick apart his weaknesses and now he can't make an adjustment and now he's got to deal with the mindset of like, wait a second, what, what is going on? I'm getting exposed and now I lack confidence. Is. Is it fair to say it's. It's almost better for you guys if he fails earlier than he doesn't?
- [53:05]
B
100%. I mean, we are seeking those opportunities in the minor leagues constantly because you're not judged by the adversity you face. It's how you face the adversity that you experienced. And so we want to know how you counter punch. Like everybody in the game gets knocked on their caboose at a time. So like how do you bounce up? Because with all the data right now, there's just a very short window of time that you come up to the big leagues and people don't know your, your strengths and weaknesses. They immediately adjust so that the game is constantly about adjustments. Are you able to stay one step ahead of them? Adjusting to you? The more talented you are, the more cushion you have there. But for the average major league player who's still an exceptional player, it's a constant game of, of punching and counter punching. So we want to know exactly how you handle that in the minor leagues because once you get to the big leagues and that happens and we've seen it so many times and I, I can think of a number of players too and you've been, you've been gracious enough not to name names and I'm not going to do it here. But they get to the big leagues, they kind of coasted through the minor leagues. They hit at every level. They get to the big leagues and they have a six week period where the league doesn't know them, they do very well and then all of a sudden they get knocked on their butt and sometimes takes a full season for them to recover from that. We'd rather have them have that experience in a safer environment where there's less at stake, where their margin of error is greater and we can give them a longer kind of leash to work their way through that at the big league level. When the guy gets knocked on his butt and has a tough time getting back up, there's only so long we can help them sort through that before we have to take them out of the major league environment. And now all of a sudden they're not getting the full value of learning from that experience.
- [54:41]
A
Yeah, I mean if you look at the, my belief anyways, the role of an agent, right. We wear many hats. One of them is like we, we need to like guide you through your career. Part of that is really understanding kind of what's like the next thing for you, right? What, what's, what's, what's on deck for you? When a player's in the minor leagues, one of the things that agents oftentimes are met with is let's just say a player who's in an organization and let's just say he's a catcher and the big league catcher is a guy that's on a multi year contract. And that player is just, you know, he's in Triple A, he's a top prospect now. And he's like, I'm never getting called up. This is brutal. I want to send a message to that player from you, though.
- [55:20]
B
And.
- [55:20]
A
But I, in doing that, I want to share with you something that I. One of the things that I did when I had guys go through this is I put together what I call kind of like a blocked study, right? I listed out there was like five players, and across the board everybody would say, this player, this prospect, he's blocked, right? And a guy that came to mind from this study was Gary Sanchez. When Gary Sanchez was a top prospect in the minor leagues with the Yankees, you know, he goes out there and has a pretty good year, I think, at Double A, ends up going to Triple A the next season, and the Yankees that offseason end up signing Brian McCann to, I think it was like a five year deal. He's now their catcher. And if you're Gary Sanchez, you're thinking, well, I'm getting traded. Like, there's no world in which I'm staying with the Yankees, right? And so as a player, it's very easy to throw your hands up and be like, this sucks. Like now my career is getting ruined because they did this. What does it say about me? What does it say about the organization, how they think of me, et cetera. And what ends up happening with Gary Sanchez is Gary Sanchez continues to perform, which is the most important thing, right? But then Brian McCann, at some point, I think he either got hurt, they moved him to dh. Now Gary Sanchez gets called up, he's the one that becomes the All Star, and then he stays the Yankees catcher for the rest of the time that Brian McCann was with the Yankees. So I share that because from an agent's perspective, from someone who's been in the business a long time, we know how that works, right? We know how teams think. We understand that, like, this is not the end of the story. Give it time. But the message I always share with players is the number one thing that you cannot lose sight of, it is always about your performance. You have to continue to play. Because if you don't put up numbers, then you're giving them every reason to say, well, maybe you're not ready, but if you keep playing and if you keep forcing the issue, someone's either going to come trade for you or there's going to be a need in the big leagues and you're going to be the guy that gets called up.
- [57:11]
B
I think. I think that's the perfect positioning. You know, this is the quintessential argument around control. What you can control and what you can control is showcasing the best version of yourself each night. And you ideally are doing that for your own organization and inspiring them to call you up, because they just have to. You're performing so well, they have to create a spot for you. Or as you say, maybe the spot is created by an injury or a poor performance of the big league level. But in addition to that, you're also showcasing your talent for the other 29 clubs. And there are people watching. And if you're performing at an elite level, people are going to come get you. People don't recognize major league talent in the minor leagues and turn a blind eye to that. They're really a finite number of guys who should absolutely be in the big leagues today or playing in the minor leagues. If the team that they are playing for doesn't recognize that the rest of us do, we're making calls, we're aggressively trying to acquire you. So control what you control can control. Go out there every night, showcase the best version of yourself. It's one of the toughest parts about professional sports, in my opinion, which is any given day, Gary Sanchez could get a call from Brian Cashman saying, hey, you're a Cincinnati Red tomorrow, or you're a San Diego Padre, or you know what, you're getting called up to the big leagues with the, the Yankees, and they just have to respond to that because at that stage in their career, they don't have latitude, they don't have free agent rights, or they don't have a no trade clause. There are very few professions out there where one day you could be living in one city, the next day you could be reporting to the other. But if you can keep your head straight on controlling what you can control, focus on the day at hand and being the best version of yourself. It's very rare for a guy who's unequivocally a major league talent to be waylaid in the minor leagues for too long. That will remedy itself, and it will remedy itself soon. If you continue to avail yourself as a guy who could help a major league team win a baseball game that night, that.
- [59:05]
A
So would you guys be kind of analyzing, you know, all. I mean, obviously you guys have reports and scouting reports on all these, you know, different players. But if you were to see an organization like the Yankees, in that case, who signed Brian McCann, are you like, does that tip you off at all to say, oh, I wonder if they'll move Gary Sanchez and you'll like reach out to them. Is that, is that fair to assume?
- [59:27]
B
Yeah. So I, I think two things, and maybe these aren't fair, but these are things that you assume in those cases is okay. Maybe they have some questions about Gary Sanchez's ability to, to be the full time catcher. So that's, that's One thing and two is if we don't have those concerns, we are 100% calling because he's now blocked and there's a chance that they will now trade him. There's no, there's no such thing as having too much major league capable catching. So it's not like they have to trade him in that scenario. But I, I'll share an experience where I made a mistake in this regard. One of my first years working in Texas. General manager is John Daniels. He's, you know, exceptional friend and tremendous leader.
- [60:07]
A
Yeah, J, JD's the man.
- [60:08]
B
JD is the man. And we had one of these scenarios met. So we had at the major league level, Mark Teixeira was our first baseman at aaa, we had Adrian Gonzalez, who was our first baseman. Kevin Towers, a wily veteran gm, wonderful human being, called us up and said, hey, would you consider trading Adrian Gonzales? We were short sighted enough to say, well, yeah, I mean, he's blocked like we, we're not going to. We didn't have the vision to understand that those two guys could coexist on the same major league team absent of being one of them being a dh, which we thought would devalue one of the two guys. So we end up making a trade with San Diego in which Kevin definitely swindled us. So that is a case in point where I think the team that has Gary Sanchez in that case has to be very thoughtful. We can't allow the industry to devalue a player just because he's not our first string guy. But also we have to recognize the value that that player possesses, especially at a premium position like catching. You know, Gary Sanchez in that moment in time could have been traded for a ton. You know, they decided to have him contribute and he contributed very well at the major league level for them. But don't lose sight of the fact that that player has a ton of value. Be patient in assessing it. Be open minded to trading him, but don't allow the industry to devalue him just because he's not your featured player at that position because you're so blessed in that moment in time to have a player who's equally as good, if not better at the major league level.
- [61:35]
A
Yeah. I think play players oftentimes don't see it the way that I, I think agents and people that are on the business side a little bit more see it, which is. Yeah, I mean, if, if you're getting a phone call from another gm, a player would say, oh, well, you guys are on the same side. So you guys just, you'll call up a gym and be like, hey, man, you want to take this guy off my hands? Yeah, what do you want? Here you go. And it's like, it's done. It's like, no, no, no, no, no. That's not how it goes. Right. Like, you guys are feeling each other out. You're not just trying to give away the farm. Right. For nothing. So on some level, it's a negotiation. No different than a player's negotiation.
- [62:07]
B
Yeah. I mean, fundamentally, we're all trying to buy low and sell high, but if both sides are trying to do the same thing, that makes for a very difficult negotiation. So, you know, there's very different schools of negotiation at the major league level. You know, the one I always used to employ was I always wanted to start from a place of fair. So if my first offer you accepted, you could hold your head high like, we got a fair deal done. Now, admittedly, I'm looking for the best version of fair for us, but it's also fair for you. There are other people who subscribe to the theory of, well, it didn't hurt to ask you. You know, usually those deals are deals that would be extremely one sided. And I always remind them, it does hurt to ask because your integrity is on the line. And if you become somebody I know to be offering me deals that if I accepted, quite frankly, I may lose my job. I don't appreciate that. You know, like, there's a level of like, we are all competing together, but I really shouldn't be doing deals with you that I think could contribute to you losing your job. Like, that's not the extent to which we should be going. And I've often thought like, one of the measures of a person is how do you handle leverage. So sometimes in those situations, the perception is the team that's calling on Gary Sanchez has a little bit more leverage because he's blocked. But how do you handle the leverage? When somebody's laying down on the ground, do you put your foot on their throat or do you extend the hand to lift them up? And I think that's something that, that's a look in the mirror. Moment for everybody. Sometimes we're a little bit compromised in that moment. And maybe you think you can leverage me to the hilt. Well, if that works in that one instance, that's something I'll forever remember. And it's not that I would never do business with that team in the future because we have to do business with all 29 teams. It's something we owe our owners and our fans. But I may be wary of doing business with that team. And if there's any chance to work with somebody else, I'll choose that over going back to having a conversation with somebody who kind of mishandled the situation to that extent and showed a lack of integrity by asking for a deal that would have been totally lopsided, or when I was a little bit compromised, really put their foot on my throat and really struggled to breathe rather than helping me up and getting me back in the game and understanding, okay, there's a scenario where they could win this deal, but they don't have to vanquish me in the process.
- [64:16]
A
Right? Yeah. I mean, we've all seen deals that have worked out for one side and not the other. And I think people would assume the general manager who won the deal is celebrating saying, oh, I'm so brilliant is amazing, but at the end of the day, I have to imagine Thad, you're like, no, that bums me out because that guy's going to get criticized, he's going to lose his job. And in reality, when we made the trade, I didn't know this guy was going to fall on his face. I actually thought he was going to be okay.
- [64:43]
B
Right. I mean, I think we're actually hunting win win deals, if you can believe it. Of course, I hope my my win slightly bigger than your win. But the goal of every negotiation is to facilitate the next negotiation. So I want the player that I send to you to actually do well. That's the best case scenario. Because then when you want to make the next deal, you're being client to like, try to call me because you think that that's a great place for you to get good players. The worst case scenario is when I go into my owner and say, hey, based upon how we've conducted ourselves, whether it's an integrity standpoint or whether it's, we just tried to vanquish the foe a few times. I can only really negotiate with 18 teams now. I think that's when an owner should say to you, like, hey, then we got to get somebody else in this role because I need to know that you have the full access to the talent pool in the game. And it's the same with agents. Like, I think there's a misconception based upon movies that agents in front office executives have these big, contentious, knockdown, drag out fights. And you know, we're using four letter words when we talk to each other. The reality is like, we actually are on the same end of the rope for the most part. Like, there's nothing better than me paying your player a ton of money because that means he performed extremely well for our team. Like, that's an extremely good outcome. So the, the best negotiations with agents to me are the ones where we're like, okay, this guy is really good. He's done exceptionally well. Now let's define how good it he's been. You know, you don't really want to nitpick of all the things that didn't go right because that means he wasn't really a, you know, a transcendent contributor for you. But the best agent front office relationships I've had is, okay, we get the negotiation out of the way. Now let's put our heads together. Like, how do we get the most out of the player? Like, what are you seeing? What are we seeing? Because there's offseason programming that agents are much more involved in than the front office executives are. Like, how do we holistically support this player to be the best version of himself? It's not that you guys are trying to do something and we're doing something totally different, which may at times be at odds with each other. The goal is to do something together so that when we negotiate the next time your players in a position to dominate us and make the most money possible, because that means he contributed exceptionally well to the team.
- [66:47]
A
Yeah, that. Great answer. It's funny, I was actually going to ask you about your answer to that, which was about agents. So you answered it. I got a last, last little quick rapid fire. So just give me first thing that comes to mind. Just a couple questions. Okay, so favorite player and not necessarily favorite, like, oh, he was the best, but the favorite player that you had that you really looked forward to having in your clubhouse.
- [67:18]
B
So I, the first name that comes to mind is Adrian Beltray. I mean, he's super talented, you know, first ballot hall of Famer. But in addition to that, I've never seen somebody carry himself enjoying the game of baseball more on a night in a night out basis. I, I mean, he was there to entertain fans and it was part because it came so naturally to him. He Just wore his emotions on his sleeve to marry that up with the talent and the extraordinary things he could do made him one of the most enjoyable players to watch night in and night out.
- [67:47]
A
Yeah, he was fun to watch, especially when all the guys would mess with him, like touching his touch his head.
- [67:51]
B
And he would throw his glove at Elvis Andrus all the time.
- [67:54]
A
What's one thing fans completely misunderstand about how trades actually happen?
- [67:59]
B
Well, you know, I think it's getting back to what we talked about, where it's like this kind of knockdown, contentious thing where we're all trying to win every trade. I think the best trades I've ever been involved in involve the other team being able to hold their head high, too. So I think the thing that fans may not realize is I'm actually hunting opportunities to deliver the most value to you that matters the least to me, if that makes sense. And the only way you can do that is to really listen and ask a lot of questions. Most deals that I've ever done at some point come to the point where the other side says, well, there's nothing more that we can talk about. So there's points at which you have to negotiate both sides of the deal to get them back into the conversation. And the only way you can do that is if you take their interest to heart and actually try to deliver value to them. So that's part of the negotiation that I've experienced in most significant deals I've done. It's the attention to delivering value to the other side, as well as getting the best end of the deal for your team.
- [68:54]
A
I love that. Okay, if you could sit in on any negotiation in MLB history, past or present, which one would it be?
- [69:02]
B
Well, I think the one that has drawn the most eyebrow raises in the last couple years and I would have loved to have been part of, is the Shohei Ohtani negotiation. Yeah, just What a fascinating $700 million deal. 600 million deferred. They also know how much revenue they're getting through all these sponsorship dollars. Shohei is willing to put some money off to the side, probably with the understanding that they're going to do some other aggressive things for the team. There had to have been a collaboration at a level that we just normally do not see in that type of negotiation. I assume the agent, the player, the front office, the ownership was all involved, and I would just love to have been a fly in the wall to see the back and forth in that negotiation.
- [69:42]
A
I will say this having been a part of, not that one but big negotiations in the past, when you get those deals done with the organization, there's a nice moment after where you're all celebrating and it's. It's a great feeling. It's, it's. It's truly. It's what, it's what we're all here for, right? To feel those. Those moments.
- [70:00]
B
It's the. It's the quintessential collaboration, right? Because, like, those deals don't come together by a team brow beating up an agent or an agent trying to gain the upper hand. Like, everyone has to be on the same page. There's so much creativity involved. It takes everyone putting pen to paper and sitting on the same side of the table.
- [70:17]
A
Yeah. Well, Thad, I appreciate you, brother. This has been fantastic. Again, I want to give the name of your podcast so everybody could go check it out. It's called Rosters to Rings. I'm assuming they can get it on just anywhere that that podcaster shown. Apple Spotify.
- [70:33]
B
Exactly. Apple, Spotify, Google, all the. All the good stuff. And the name. The origin of the name is we cover you from opening day rosters in every sport to championship rings one and everything in between. So, you know, definitely check it out. We'd love to get your feedback. Any questions you guys may have, we'll address on the air.
- [70:48]
A
I love it, brother. I appreciate you. I'll give you a holler.
- [70:52]
B
Thanks, man. Great spending time with you.
- [70:54]
A
Likewise. Good to see you, Dad.