← Most Valuable Agent with Matt Hannaford
Most Valuable Agent with Matt Hannaford
The Dad Effect: How Travel Ball Parenting Limits Future Big Leaguers
01:10:51
In this episode Matt sits down with Johan Martinez-Khalilian to explore a powerful and often overlooked dynamic in youth and professional sports: the role of fathers (and parents) in shaping athletes’ journeys. Through raw stories, personal...
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- [00:13]
A
All right, so I'm joined by a guest today who I am proud to say holds the record for is, this is the official record number of appearances on the Most valuable agent podcast, Mr. Johan Martinez Gili, and we call him Joe.
- [00:28]
B
I think at this point we just need to be like co host. We interview other people.
- [00:32]
A
We talked about it.
- [00:33]
B
I'm saying at this point, we just got to make it official.
- [00:35]
A
The last time I think everybody saw you, you and I were in Boston seeing a couple of the clients. So you and I, we have a conversation. It was about a week ago.
- [00:43]
B
About a week ago. And which, by the way, this is a sign of like, how action oriented you are. You were like, we got to put that on the podcast. Here we are a week later doing it.
- [00:52]
A
Well, it just got my wheel spinning, but was so, it was so perfect. And I want to share it with everybody kind of what you said to me. So obviously, as everybody knows, I represent baseball players. You work with a bunch of different professionals, a bunch of different athletes, one of which is baseball players, and you work with a bunch of my major league clients. And so we were just kind of casually talking, catching up. And you had said something to me which I thought was profound, and it was more about the role that dads play in a player's life. And what's interesting about that is when, when the listener hears that, they're probably thinking like, well, yeah, of course, like, you know, this podcast is for youth and travel, baseball parents and players. So naturally, when the kid is 16, 17, 18, he's going to play meaningful role. We were actually talking about on the big league level, how parents still play a role and the residual effect that often times continues to impact the player long after they've, you know, dealt with some stuff at, at this young age. So why don't you, I guess, share with, share with us a little bit about what was on your heart when you shared that with me. And like, where, where did that come from for you?
- [02:02]
B
Yeah, part of it was me experiencing a pattern over the years where there's a lot of guys that talk about this disconnection that they have with their dads that you would think, hey, if there's these high performing athletes and they get to this amazing level, you know, potentially they have great relationships with their parents and it always works out right, like this storybook type of dynamic. And what I found is that's usually not the case a lot of times, especially I would say with a lot of my, my male athletes, the relationship with the father is Kind of shady at best. Yeah. You know, and I found that there's times where we have to actually talk through how this specific player wants to re establish their relationship or create a new dynamic. Because if the performance isn't there, for example, and you and I have talked through these types of scenarios, the player will get a text from the dad and the dad is blasting into him right from a distance. Instead of, okay, the performance wasn't there, the dad checks in and like just connects to their son and to me.
- [03:10]
A
Like kid first, player second.
- [03:12]
B
Yeah. And, and I think that it was, it was crazy because it wasn't just a one time thing, a two time thing, a three time thing. I was like, it happens all the time. So on one side of it, I think some of the parents or the dads think, well, this is what I need to do to get a performance out of my kid instead of, oh well, one, they're, they're adults now. How does this type of behavior actually limit my son? How is it holding him back? How is it preventing him from being his best? You know. And so like I said, that pattern started to stand out to me and I think at times I, I started realize part of my role is to be a male figure. Obviously I'm not their dad who can sit with them in a space where things aren't going the way that they thought and say, hey, I'm here with you. You're not good or bad because you didn't get that thing. I'm still with you. And not only do I not judge you, but I'm proud of you. Like, sometimes I don't have to say that directly, but I can, I can give off that energy and you can see like it's creates this trusting dynamic where the guys are like, oh, you accept me for me, even when they're not doing what they're supposed to be doing. Yeah, I'm not like blasting them for it. I'm getting curious and saying, okay, hey, how, what did you want to see happen there? How can we grow? If you were to do it differently, what would change? Right, right.
- [04:47]
A
What's interesting and what's coming up for me though is you coach these guys, for lack of a better term.
- [04:55]
B
You.
- [04:55]
A
Help them realize they have the tools to deal with, with a whole host of different things in their life.
- [05:04]
B
Right.
- [05:04]
A
Adversity, communication, whether that's communicating with the organization and the manager, but also with, you know, their friends and family and agents and all these different people. I wonder, and where I get curious is do the dads do things the way that they do. I believe they do it thinking it's what they need to do. Right. They're called to be that, you know, figure in their life that's going to get the most out of them. But they also don't have the tools to do it any other way because.
- [05:36]
B
It is, it's, it's an era, right? It's, it's a certain time in, in the world where the thought process or the consciousness was. If you want to help somebody achieve big things, you sort of like shame them into it. You know what I mean? It's like, what the, what's wrong with you? How could you do that? And I taught you better. Instead of. Actually there's, there's a lot of options there. And there's something that's actually more powerful than shame and it's acceptance, it's curiosity, you write inquiry, it's compassion. It's like holding space for people. That type of thing actually creates a safer environment so people can grow and be their best. But again, so this is where we don't like, we're not going to vilify anybody, right. I think everybody's doing the best that they can with what they have. And I think a lot of these dads, this is what they were taught. So some of it is unlearning, you know, and, and part of what I think needs to happen is they need to listen to the feedback that they're getting from their kids. There's a reason why a lot of, I think as guys get older, they start to disconnect or create distance from their parents because they don't even know how to say, hey, like that's not okay. I love you, you're my dad, I appreciate everything. But the way that you're speaking to me is no longer okay because now it actually holds me back. It makes me not want to communicate to you or share what I'm going through with you, things like that. And that's why I think we can start to say, hey, what if you took the feedback from your son and you redesigned your relationship?
- [07:14]
A
Yeah, I, I'm envisioning these conversations happening. And let's just say it's, it's with a 16 to 18 year old kid, they don't think they can have that conversation with their dad. Right. Like the, the thought of even doing that is, can't do that.
- [07:29]
B
Right.
- [07:30]
A
Like my dad's the leader, the boss, whatever term comes to mind. But as the player gets older, they, at least in my experience, it's not that they're more comfortable having the conversation. They're more comfortable ignoring the dad, right? And almost being, like, passive aggressive, Like, I'm gonna show him that that's not the way to talk to me. Because if he does talk to me that way, well, I'm gonna ignore him for a month, right? And then eventually he's gonna realize he made a mistake, and then he's gonna come and he's gonna apologize. And even that way of communicating isn't healthy either, because you're also. You're not solving any problem. Like, yeah, sure, your dad in the moment may realize, all right, I probably shouldn't have communicated that way with you. But then when the next time happens, does he really have, again, like, the awareness, the tools to do it differently or is he doing it the same?
- [08:18]
B
Right?
- [08:18]
A
And so we have this conversation, and here's where I just knew this was. We had already talked about wanting to film this, but when I realized, this was like, oh, man, this is a must for us to do this. So that same day, I go see the. You know, the area code games is, as everybody knows, like, one of the top events to go to as a. As an amateur kid. And so I go, I see one of the families that were advising, and it was amazing because, like, one of the first things this one particular father brings up, he says, look, I have, you know, my best friend growing up. You know, he's still. He's family to me to this day. And, you know, he said something to me on the phone. He said, hey, look, man, I. I know what you're trying to do to help your son, but I see this look on your face when you're trying to get him to, like, listen to you and do stuff. And it's the same look that you gave. This is what he says. It's the same look you used to give me as a kid. And trust me, like, it's. It's too much. You got to figure this out. Like, you've got to take a step back, because if you don't, the risk is you're just pushing him further away, right? And this is like your last go around with your son before he's either in college or going to be a professional. And to this dad's credit, he acknowledged it in that moment, and he's like, hey, man, you're absolutely right. So at this dinner, he said, what I'm most excited about is I am looking forward to allowing you guys to guide my son and for me just to be a dad.
- [09:44]
B
Yeah, right.
- [09:45]
A
And like, you could see this weight that was lifted off of his shoulders. And so even for the dads listening, who may get a little territorial, defensive, think, ah, you know, you guys don't get it, or whatever thought is coming to mind at the end of the day, your son, you are so important to him that I think they believe they need to show their influence by commanding certain things. I'm going to show you that I matter. I'm going to tell you that you need to do this. I'm going to, I'm going to prove to you through force that I'm strong and I'm powerful as the dad, when in reality it's actually the opposite that would do those exact things.
- [10:30]
B
Right.
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A
And I think sometimes what dads do is they say the mom is there to coddle you. I'm here to show you tough love.
- [10:38]
B
Yeah.
- [10:38]
A
And like anything other than that is a weakness. So what I want us to kind of go into and dive into is. And obviously I want to like follow your lead too because you're the one with the experience in this on a professional level. But I'd like to give these dads, number one real, you know, some things to think about and really reflect on for their own situation to figure out. Is this something that I'm doing?
- [11:02]
B
Yeah.
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A
But the second thing is I want to encourage them and maybe we can give them some, on some level, tools.
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B
Right.
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A
And even if it's just one, and that may just be awareness.
- [11:14]
B
Right? Yeah. Because that's the tool, have the conversation. Right.
- [11:16]
A
But give them some insight, you know, and help them. Because my goal, as I know, is yours. These players have such an amazing opportunity ahead of them as players. I want to make sure that every one of these guys, man, like, has a great experience. And so how do we help them at this stage now?
- [11:35]
B
Yeah, I'll start it this way. I'll share about my own story because my father was a professional soccer player in Iran. And so, you know, my parents met in Chicago. My dad was actually visiting his brother at the time, but he was playing professional soccer in Iran. So he had like a summer free. And then he met my mom, they had a romance, he had to go back to Iran to play. And my mom being so this is also a little bit about my mom because she's kind of a gangster herself.
- [12:07]
A
I love it.
- [12:08]
B
So think about this, right? A young 20 something Puerto Rican woman who's 5 foot 1 from Chicago. My dad goes back to Iran. My mom jumps on a plane to go to Iran in her early 20s. What? Yeah, in Iran. They get married over there, and then essentially a revolution takes place in Iran right at the time. So if you've seen Argo.
- [12:34]
A
Yeah.
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B
That period of time, my mom was there, and essentially one of my dad's friends comes up to him and says, hey, you guys got to get out of here, because it's going to get crazy. So my mom literally said that they left. And a week later, what they call, like, Black Friday, they shut down airports. They would.
- [12:50]
A
That. That was like that embassy and all that stuff happened.
- [12:53]
B
Wow. Like, they left kind of right in the nick of time. So one, you know, I was fortunate enough to be born in America and not in the midst of that craziness over there that was taking place, but also what my dad left was his dream, you know, so he had a career that was budding. And actually him and my uncle were playing on different teams, so they were both professional soccer players. My. My uncle was like the offensive star. My dad was a defensive star. But then obviously, when, you know, came to America, my mom got pregnant. And then my dad being, you know, the good man that he is, is like, well, I got to work, so starts to make a living doing whatever he can. Obviously, I'm born, grow up. The moment I can start to play sports, he introduces me to soccer. And I, you know, I loved as. For as long as I could remember, I'm like, I just loved everything sports oriented. So I picked up the game really fast. I was really good. Then as I started to play more and more, I could notice, like, my dad was really, like, hard on me. And he was anything. Any mistake that I would make, he would look like, you know, not treat me like a kid, but almost like a grown man who needed to, like, get it.
- [14:13]
A
And how old were you? Like, around this time?
- [14:15]
B
I was like 7 or 8 years old.
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A
Right?
- [14:17]
B
Yeah, I was a little.
- [14:18]
A
Yeah, we're not talking like.
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B
Yeah, no.
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A
18.
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B
I was a little guy. So, you know, I was playing ayso. I don't know if you're ever, you know, familiar with that, but playing ayso, and. And I just remember as a kid having this memory of like, oh, I hate playing soccer now, because it wasn't fun anymore. You know, it was this. These exchanges where it's like, I had to perform and I had to be a certain way. Y' all haven't really shared this story ever, so there's a little bit of emotion coming up for me because, you know, one side of it, there's like a sadness, you know, like, wondering, you know. Yeah. What could have been different about that? Because there is a part of me. It's like, how far would I have gone with soccer if I was just invited to play and if it was. It was just fun. Yeah. You know, if it wasn't this, like, tension about being a certain type of player or getting it all right. So, you know, at that young stage in my life, I walked away, and I was like, I don't want to play this anymore. Now, unfortunately, again, because my dad's a good man, and as I share this. Right. It's like, I don't think he did anything wrong, per se. Like, he was doing the best that.
- [15:29]
A
He could with the tools that he had.
- [15:30]
B
Right. Because he's a good man. You know, I was like, I don't want to play soccer anymore. And he was like, okay. You know, and so I. I grew up in Chicago, and all I watched was Michael Jordan. And now I'm like, okay, I'll play basketball. And again, I was always very athletic, so I picked up basketball quick, and I started to kind of skyrocket, you know, in basketball. And my dad was very supportive of that. But throughout the years, he would always be like, what could have happened with soccer? Sure, I wish he would have stayed playing soccer, you know, And. And at times I would tell him I was like, me, too. But if you would have coached me different, if you would have connected to me different, who knows what could have happened, you know, because, again, I was just a little kid without any of these tools to know even how to, like, maybe shut some of that stuff off.
- [16:19]
A
Yeah.
- [16:19]
B
Because it did affect me. So I'll say that to say, and I think this is. It's known but not practiced enough. Instead of living your unlived dreams through your kids, let them have their own dreams. Now, that's not to say that you can't invite them or introduce them to your sport, but let's see if. Let's see if they love it. Let's see if they gravitate towards it. And again, if they do like I did, okay, create a space where that kid can flourish and you're not forcing them to grow on your timeline, because that's the thing that I think creates attention, and it takes the love out of the game. And. And you and I have talked about it quite a bit where it's like, sometimes you're literally. I feel like within the last month, you probably told me three or four stories about this where you're literally talking to one of your guys and Saying, just go out there and have fun. How about this? Release the pressure. Just go have a blast. Which again, to me is a very fatherly thing to say, you know, because I think underneath it is. And I don't know if you've ever looked at it this way, but it's like, I love you for who you are. You don't have to prove anything, but go have fun, you know? And that message, I think is lost. Part of it is that thing of, like, these dads are, are. Are thinking, this kid in front of me, he's gonna do the thing that I couldn't do, and maybe that's worth it.
- [17:54]
A
What? Where I. And I've always wondered this. I do believe that the passion that your dad had and like, the joy he experienced when you played the game, I do believe, like, what a beautiful thing. I'm sure he was, like, never had more fun. Love sharing the game with you, like, it all came from this amazing place. You know what I'd be curious about is as you were going through this at, you know, eight years old, what, what part of it was it, like, this is not fun anymore because, like. And I'll share my experience after.
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B
Yeah.
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A
But I think a lot of kids and a lot of parents watching this, I'm sure this is going to resonate. They think that I've seen you be so good, but you're not right now. So it's. I don't know if you know, especially at 8, like, if it's like, you need to do this so you can live out this un unfulfilled dream that I wasn't able to. I think it's more about, like, I. I see something in you that is so special. If I don't tell you to do this, no one else in the world is going to help you do this. I'm the only one that can. And so what I'm wondering is, as you were going through this and you've kind of had this first realization what, what stands out is like, oh, man. Like, there's this moment and maybe it wasn't just one, but like, there were.
- [19:20]
B
What.
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A
What was it?
- [19:21]
B
It's funny because I feel like, like I said, I'm. I'm talking about this for the first time. You know, Even though I've had this story in my head, I'm kind of, you know, putting words and pictures and ideas next to it in a way that I never have before. But I think the first part of it no longer being fun was now it felt like. And again, I Can feel some emotion coming up. It felt like my relationship with my dad was dependent on my performance. Sure.
- [19:48]
A
That's the car ride home thing that everybody talks about. Yeah, I had a good game. Everything's fine. I have a bad game. And it's like, yeah, as a kid, you're just envisioning like, I don't want to get in the car with my dad because it's just going to be this, like, it's going to be uncomfortable, this blow up. And I've disappointed the one person in the world that I don't ever want to disappoint.
- [20:09]
B
Yeah. And. And part. And again, my dad didn't mean this. And I think every dad in the world does not mean this. But whether we know it or not, we're telling our kids, your performance is more important than your personhood.
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A
That's what they're receiving.
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B
Yeah. And it's, it's this thing because again, I think in the mind of a dad, they're saying to themselves, like, I'm, I'm, you know, I'm, I'm demanding excellence. And like, I want to pull out the best in them. But. But what? There's maybe, whether it be overtly or subtly or whatever, communicating is what matters most about you is the results instead. And, and again, you know, we've talked about this plenty of times. Like, a lot of times my work is undoing all that is helping them unlearn the results have nothing to do with your identity. Just let it be data and information. But they've had so many years of that type of interaction that now what lives in their bones is, I don't know who I am when I'm not getting results. It's like, who am I?
- [21:13]
A
Okay, so I want to pause there because for anybody who's listening, I want them to understand and, like, see the connection. I, I'm. I can totally see a dad being like, really? Guys, Come on. You guys are just being too sensitive. Like, this is ridiculous. No, that's. Yeah. Have I been hard on my son? Sure. But, like, my son is now in the big leagues, and it was being hard on him. That's what helped him get to the big leagues. You obviously deal with a lot of major league players, a lot of NBA guys, and many other sports without getting into specifics on whether it's an NBA guy, baseball guy, whomever, connect it to the effects that it has on the professional player who. And again, speaking specifically for the dad who's like, my son's in the big leagues, like, if I Didn't do this, he wouldn't have gotten there.
- [22:01]
B
Yeah.
- [22:01]
A
What are the. What are the residual effects, though, that still exist even in the best case scenario where your son is like an All Star, Right?
- [22:11]
B
Yeah. I mean, part of it, to me, what sticks out is the. The first thing is, hey, what if actually the way that you coached him or taught him, and you think you believe that's what got him there, but what if that isn't first of all? Because what if he did that in spite of you?
- [22:32]
A
That resonates with me.
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B
You know what I'm saying?
- [22:35]
A
Yeah.
- [22:35]
B
Like, what if he would actually gotten farther if you had a different approach? What if he'd be greater? So, you know what I mean? Like, this is where I don't think any parent can say factually, it's because I did this that I think we would want to.
- [22:52]
A
It's always fun.
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B
Yeah. I think we want to tell ourselves that. But also, what. What they don't see is the turmoil, the inner turmoil that I see these guys go through when it's not clicking, it's not working, and then the story that they have about themselves when it's not working right.
- [23:09]
A
Oh, like, not good enough.
- [23:10]
B
I'm not good enough. I'm bad. Oh, I'm going to lose everything. And then who am I if I don't have. And what happens if the money's gone? And what. But as a dad, if we say, hey, I'm going to speak to who you are, because none of that stuff really matters. Your identity matters most. Our relationship matters most. Your character matters most. So let's invest in that first, because if we can build that up, man, you'll go be able to. You. You can crush anything.
- [23:35]
A
Yeah.
- [23:36]
B
You know what I mean?
- [23:36]
A
So the reason I said that resonates with me is so as a kid, I played multiple sports, but this one particular experience, it had to do with one sport, and it was hockey.
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B
Right.
- [23:49]
A
So, which is funny because my dad never played hockey. Right. So I'm playing hockey. I'm playing travel hockey. Funny enough, travel hockey was actually a thing before travel baseball, which you never would have expected.
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B
I didn't know that.
- [23:59]
A
But we, you know, I was born in LA. We moved to Sacramento when I was 10. I was part of this travel program in hockey down in Southern California. When it gets to Sacramento, you know, getting ice time is next to impossible, which for anybody who has kids who play hockey, they understand. And so the organization in Sacramento wasn't very good. So my dad is taking me to San Francisco and We'd get ice time at 6 o' clock every morning on Saturday. So we're in, living in Sacramento, having to get two hours to San Francisco. My dad's working all week. So I say this because, like, I recognize this was like a heavy lift for him. And by no means was this, like, oh, yeah, it's down the street and like, no big deal. So he's making this huge concession. But I would go to these, these events and, you know, it was this known thing in our family where literally, like, my dad would be in one corner of the rink, right on the glass, and if the puck was over there and I would skate over there, he would literally bang the glass and be barking at me what to do the entire time. Mind you, I'm like one of the best kids on the ice, right? And so it got to a place where we would have these run ins after, on the way home. Again, it's not a five minute drive now. Now it's two hours. There was so much time for him to tell me what I did wrong and all that stuff. And so it got to a place where I was just like, I stopped skating over there to the ice. And I think about, yeah, what was the motivation for my dad? He, it, he, he, I believe this. Like, he actually thought, like, you're special, you can do this. But from someone who never played the sport, he wasn't giving me this, like, advice, this professional, like, you know, scouting tip of this is what you want to do in those situations. My dad wasn't Wayne Gretzky.
- [25:40]
B
Right.
- [25:42]
A
But with that being said, the. I took the approach that you referenced, which is, I'm gonna show you, I'm gonna do this in spite of you. And that created this chip on my shoulder, which I will tell you, like, if I had to define that today, I would say, yeah, on some level, my dad being who he was certainly made me a certain way. But I do get curious what would have happened had he have just paused every once in a while and said, hey, champ, listen.
- [26:12]
B
Right?
- [26:12]
A
And actually was vulnerable and, and recognized in the moments when maybe it was too far. We don't know.
- [26:21]
B
We don't know.
- [26:22]
A
Like, we don't know. And that's part of, you know, parenthood and fatherhood and all that stuff. But, you know, I, I just, I, I know even at the highest levels, right, we're talking about kids who are truly like, the best in the country at these young ages. I think all these dads need to recognize, like, I'm not in control. I'm not driving the car, right? And like where I'm steering, he's going like, your son has abilities because of you, but what he does with those, like he is his own kid and will eventually be his own man one day. And I mean, I have clients. You have clients where, you know. And it gets even worse, right? You see, like parents don't talk to the kid anymore. They don't have a relationship. And I certainly know that's not the goal for any dad doing this. So again, it's, you know, know the picture that comes into my head is you obviously saw the movie like Tommy Boy.
- [27:22]
B
Yeah, right.
- [27:23]
A
When he's like talking about making a sale and he like grabs the piece of bread and he like strangles it and goes crazy and the bread flies all over the place in this movie. And yeah, it's like they're, they're trying to just obsess over doing this thing. And every day when their kid, you know, doesn't work out when he should, whatever. Doesn't do the nutrition program doesn't do things perfectly. They remind him you're not good enough. And is whether they're saying that or not, that's, that's what's being received.
- [28:00]
B
Yeah. And to me it's like even thinking about that, right. Is like, what, what's the cost of that in your child's life long term? Because I think that's the thing too. Would it, I'm wondering, like for any parent out there, is it worth your child achieving a goal but then having this like gaping hole in their heart that says I have to do this to be good enough? To me it wouldn't be like a great exchange. I actually, as I sit with it as a parent, you know, I have a 2 year old and a 4 year old. I'm like, I would much rather my daughter Isla and my son koa to know my value and my worth has nothing to do with what I achieve. And then go and achieve whatever they want based on their own dream and vision. Because I think that if we make another practical tool, it's this. It's check in on their vision. It's, it's con constantly asking them, hey, you want this? Why do you want it? What makes this important to you? Okay. And then you connect the dots for them. Is the work that you're putting in helping you achieve what you want or is it holding you back? Because now you're actually a guide in their life. You're not forcing them. You're helping develop a skill that's Going to be helpful throughout their life. It's helping them understand your actions need to connect to what you say you want. If they don't, maybe you don't want it. And I think again, that's a, a great parenting posture to take is to help your kid understand cause and effect. You want this. This is a deposit you can make if you don't. You can't complain if you don't get it. And though now again, part of what I think is scary because you talked about the control thing, you know, it is giving up the control and having true faith and trust that your child will find their way. Now, ironically enough, what do you think a lot of my guys struggle with? If we just talk about baseball players at the plate releasing control and trusting that they have in them what it takes to go create results consistently. Where does that come from? A fear based mind, an energy of control that was passed down, well, I gotta force it out of me. I gotta preoccupy with my numbers. If I don't get it. Here's what that means about me. That was given to them by someone. You know what I'm saying? Instead of the greatest, any great hitter, any great athlete, whatever sport, the greatest asset you have is your presence. If you can just. Even when we talk right now, you and I being fully present in this conversation creates a more meaningful conversation. But if I'm in my head, if I'm trying to control what you're going to say, if I want all the questions to be perfect, if you want my responses to be perfect, this is going to be a shitty conversation. The same thing goes for the sport. Release the control, show up in the moment, fall in love with the moment. So isn't it funny how it's the same thing that the parent is imposing through control they pass on now the kid has and they're trying to control results instead of understanding, I can trust it, I can surrender. I can show up day to day because I have everything that I need inside of me.
- [31:29]
A
So what's coming up? For me, there's two things that stand out. One is there's obviously the element of the mom, right? And I think sometimes what happens is, you know, kids in the middle, Dad's being really difficult. Oftentimes the kid, the son gravitate towards the mom. Mom coddles, gives them the safe space and it really quickly you can see this like divide that is created, right? God willing, parents are still married, like they've got to work through that. But then you have these dynamics where all parents are Divorced now. And so it probably gets even greater.
- [32:02]
B
Right.
- [32:03]
A
And I can see how to a kid, again, like, the solution is, don't deal with dad. He's difficult. I'm just gonna go deal with Mom.
- [32:13]
B
Right.
- [32:14]
A
And what you said with, you know, the dad asking the kid the question, what are your goals? What are you doing this for? Etc, I actually think there's tremendous value. Granted, it can't happen when a kid is 7 or 8, because they're not going to have the tools to do this. But when a kid's 15, 16, as. As old as, well, I mean, even in the big leagues, it's like, ask your parent, especially in travel ball. Hey, Dad, I know what my goals are for this. What are your goals for this? I'd be curious to know what they would say.
- [32:45]
B
Yeah.
- [32:45]
A
Why do you care so much? And be. And be genuinely curious. Don't come into it with this preconceived notion that, well, he's doing it for this reason.
- [32:53]
B
Right.
- [32:53]
A
But actually figure out, like, does he have an answer to it? Because I would be curious how many dads are like, what are you talking? Like, what. What do you mean? Why am I doing this? I'm doing it for my son.
- [33:06]
B
Are you? For sure? Right, right. And that's the thing. There's got to be. This is where I think we got to be honest with ourselves. Right. Because, like, well, if you are doing it for. For your son or for your kid, then there would be a certain type of fruit that comes from that, and your relationship would get better through it. I think that would be the fruit. Right. Is. Are you guys getting closer? If it's for the kid, you guys are actually getting closer as a result. You know what I mean? Like, the intimacy is growing.
- [33:37]
A
Yeah. If your relationship is being further spread.
- [33:39]
B
Apart, you're not doing it for him.
- [33:41]
A
You'Re not doing it.
- [33:42]
B
And your kid can sense that energy, that, this is not for me. This is for you, and you're forcing me. And just so we know, you know, all the science backs that. Everything that we understand about human beings backs it. When you're taking away autonomy from humans. Right. Their choice. When you're forcing them, we are not at our best. So just so we're clear, the more freedom we have, right. The more choice that we have, actually, the higher we fly. So as a parent, if we can understand that, oh, I want to. And that's part of what I do in my style of coaching. One of the first things that I have to help athletes reclaim is their agency. Right. Is their ability to choose at the highest level. Because for most of these guys and gals, it has been stripped from them and they don't know it. They've been told, be here this time, do this, run this play, think this way, behave this way. Oh, you didn't do it. Okay. Why? That's, that's. You're not supposed to do this. You should do that. Right. And now they're just kind of waiting for permission all the time and waiting to know, well, okay, you tell me, where am I supposed to go? Which in your line of work ends up being kind of problematic, Right?
- [34:53]
A
Yeah.
- [34:54]
B
Instead of these autonomous, choice driven humans who own their vision, who own their principles, who are really committed because they know what they're about, they know who they are and when. That fuels everything. Now you got a really powerful person in sport or anything else.
- [35:14]
A
And what you've taught me on many occasions, and I'm reminded of this every day again in this conversation. Even reminded of it, we were on a call with a client and I think one of the, one of the roles that I've claimed, I'll say, is this role in a player's life where, especially when it's for like a younger player, it's like, I want to solve your problem in a sense, kind of like, dad, right? Let me solve this problem. I see you're struggling. Let me give you the answer. And you said something to me on one of these, on one of these calls after the fact, you're like, hey, I would encourage you. They have to lift the weight. The player, the player has to lift the weight. Because if you're lifting it for him, expecting that you're just gonna, you know, give him this Kool Aid that he's gonna drink and when it gets hard, he's going to be able to reflect back on that and be able to, like, do the thing that you want him to do. It's never going to happen. He's got to be the one to like, connect the dots and put it together. And I think for these dads, they need to realize this too. Telling him that this has to happen or do it this way. That's not him lifting the weight. That's you just hoping that he, you know, gets what you're trying to convey to him through osmosis, which is never going to happen.
- [36:22]
B
Yeah, right. And part. I want to say this too, because I know we've kind of been saying dads, moms do this too. So just so we're clear, sometimes it's the mom that's doing that. You know, sometimes it's both parents, and we're not trying to say it's only dad, only mom. It's really more of, like, as a parent, just be mindful of how you're showing up. Be mindful of the energy that you have as your kid is pursuing a sport. Because at the end of the day, parents, it's a game.
- [36:51]
A
Yeah.
- [36:53]
B
You know what I mean? Like, let's just remember that. I think we, we forget about that important fact. It is just a game. Sure. The game ends up, like, connecting to dollars down the line. Absolutely. But the best players still play that game. That makes money because it's a game. Right. And they still have fun.
- [37:17]
A
Yeah, you're, you're absolutely right. And that's an interesting way to, to frame it too, because even in travel, baseball now, it's, yeah. You could make the argument it's a business. Right. I mean, Youth Sports, it's $40 billion a year business. So obviously there are money changing hands. There are people that you meet, agents, financial advisers, scouts, college recruiting coordinators. And it's certainly a business to them. But I, I, I do think there's, and maybe this is an interesting place we could take this conversation really going into, you know, like, the residual effect down the road. Because the only way I think a parent. Here's how I'll say it. I believe that whether it's a mom or a dad who's had this experience, realized they've made mistakes, they don't realize it in the moment most of the time. They realize it down the road when something has happened with their relationship and they can't put a finger on it. Their son doesn't want to talk to them all that much. There's some resentment. They're short with them. We've all seen kids communicate with their parents in their 20s where it's like, hey, man, like, I've had buddies where I'm like, you talk to your mom and dad that way?
- [38:25]
B
Yeah.
- [38:25]
A
Like, my dad would hit me over the head, but they do. I've had kids where they call their parents by their first name, Right?
- [38:32]
B
Yeah.
- [38:32]
A
And so you're just like, oh, man, there's like, a lack of respect there.
- [38:35]
B
Like there is.
- [38:36]
A
So to the parent who's gone through that and has seen it, okay, I made mistakes. I can see why that was a bad thing that maybe I did, but I want to prevent that from happening. And so with kids that you're with, players rather that you're dealing with at the highest level I mean, we talked about one example, right? What are some other things that you're realizing? Like, oh, you don't think it affects them down the road? Like it doesn't just affect them here, it affects them all over. This.
- [39:03]
B
Yeah. I mean, because another thing is doing this for love. You know what I mean?
- [39:08]
A
Like, you mean the player?
- [39:09]
B
Yeah. Like there's a difference between I play the game because I love the game and I play the game because I'm trying to get love from people.
- [39:17]
A
Oh yeah.
- [39:18]
B
I'm trying to get attention from the outside world. You know what I mean? I'm trying to get validation. I'm trying to get someone to notice me. And again it goes back to like. So that's why if the performance isn't clicking, we got a whole nother problem at play. Uh huh. They're not just talking about stats anymore. Right. They're talking about one of the most essential parts of being human, which is, oh, people don't love me.
- [39:44]
A
Hold on. I want to tie this, I want to tie this into like the business side real fast. So everybody who's listening, if they don't have a son who's been drafted yet, I think they probably have ambitions, unless they're just a fan, but have ambitions of like, yeah, I would love my son to have an opportunity to be drafted and sign for a lot of money. Like, that'd be amazing. It's his dream, right?
- [40:04]
B
Yeah.
- [40:05]
A
Interesting thing that I've noticed and I continue to notice it year in and year out, which is as I prepare players for the draft and their families. You know, one of the questions that a lot of scouts like to ask these players is, does the round matter to you or does the money matter to you?
- [40:20]
B
Right.
- [40:21]
A
And what I mean by that is if you're a second round pick and we give you a million dollars or you're an 11th round pick and we give you $4 million, which one is more important? Now I think logically any parent is going to say, take the 4 million bucks, right? And you could change those numbers to be whatever you want them to be. What I have been surprised by is players have a hard time thinking about, well, I want my 4 million, but I got to be an 11th rounder for that. And they start to think about what is the world going to tell me? They're going to look at that, saying, you're an 11th rounder, right. Not that you're a 4 million dollar guy. Because in reality when you talk about signing for 4 million bucks, you're getting paid like a first rounder.
- [41:07]
B
Yep.
- [41:07]
A
Not an 11th rounder. So like the baseball organization that's giving you the 4 million, they look at you like a first rounder because they're giving you the 4 million bucks, not like an 11th rounder.
- [41:16]
B
Right.
- [41:17]
A
But you're more concerned about what your buddies at school, what the industry and people don't. Who don't understand are going to think about you instead of the realities of the situation. And I have been surprised that every year I'm like, there's always an example of, like, why, how are you struggling with this? And so what I'm fascinated by is I wonder how much of this ties into. Yeah. There's a lack of self worth, and where else am I supposed to get my validation?
- [41:47]
B
Right. And that's the thing, because, you know, as we put it together like this, it makes total sense. Right. Where you understand, we can go back to. Part of what I think is missing in our conversation so far is, hey, what exactly is the job of a parent? Because Is it to get a performance out of your kids? Is it to ensure certain outcomes in their life? Is that our job? Because I think if we look at the way most of us show up as parents, you would think that is the job. But as I understand it, a big part of my job is to create a healthy environment so that my son and my daughter can be all that they can be. Right. I want to create the space, the context, the world so that they know I'm loved as I am and now I'm free to go explore and create. That's very different. I would say it another way. Right. If we're talking about, you know, sometimes we like to use our, our, our fruit tree metaphors and planting and things like that. My job as their father is to take the weeds out and then allow them to bloom as they will. Right. It's like I want to till the soil. I want to take the weeds out. I want to create the space so that the sun can shine on them, the water can come down. But I want to keep taking those weeds out and then let them flourish. Yeah, right. That's not forcing them to grow. That's creating a context in which we could see, hey, what's in them? Yeah, what's really, really in them? That excites me as a parent. Now, again, it goes back to what we were talking about. What I need to do is release some of my fears that they won't get it. And I think this goes back to one of the essential skills that parents need. That you were addressing earlier. We need the skill of allowing our parent to. I mean, of allowing our kid to flounder in front of us.
- [43:44]
A
Say that again.
- [43:45]
B
Yeah. So as a parent, the skill that we need is to allow our kid to flounder right in front of us. Right. To get it wrong, to make mistakes. And we don't overreact. We don't steal their growth from them. We don't fix it. We let them learn from it. It's a valuable skill. The more you steal that from them, the more you actually hinder their growth, the more you stunt them. And that's what I'm saying is like, our kids will not be all that they can be if we keep lifting the weight for them, if we keep wanting their life or their pursuit of the game or whatever it is to be clean. It's got to be messy.
- [44:35]
A
What do you say to the parent who says, the reason I do this is because I don't think my son possesses this thing, that they need to actually work through this, so I have to force him to do it, otherwise he won't.
- [44:51]
B
Yeah. I'm like, how's that working for you? Right. Because to me, it would be as simple as that, right? Yeah.
- [44:56]
A
Well, not only that, but it's like, well, if they don't possess it now, then how are they going to learn to possess. You want them to learn that at 22?
- [45:02]
B
Yeah. And it's this thing of. It goes back to like. Well, part of what you're telling me, parent, is you don't trust your kid.
- [45:09]
A
Yeah.
- [45:10]
B
So, okay, tell me any relationships that. That works without the foundation of trust, can your kid grow faster and actually reach a higher sort of like, peak? If what they feel from you. Trust you to figure it out, Go ahead, go try again and again. I don't know many parents that, that do that. Well, even. Even for myself, there's things in my relationship, in my marriage where I'm like, I got to make sure my wife, like, gets it. Yeah. Instead of I trust my wife to figure it out. That's part of why I say, like, I understand this skill not only as a parent, but also as a spouse. You know, as a guy who has coaches who work for him. I, I feel like I've. I. I have a great grasp of it with the clients that I work with because I'm like, I always have that energy. I'm like, I know you're going to figure it out. Actually, today with one of my MLB guys, you know, we had a conversation at the End. I was like, I just want to remind you, you're going to figure this out. Like, I have complete trust in that you're going to figure this out. But I wasn't fixing it for that. For him.
- [46:18]
A
Yeah. And he probably hated it.
- [46:20]
B
Right.
- [46:20]
A
Just tell me what you want me to do.
- [46:22]
B
And, you know, so I. I'll speak a little bit about that because this goes back to, like, another job that I think we have, because I see this show up often. Our players are stunted in this realm. They don't know what they're feeling. They don't. Yeah. So. So sometimes I'm like, hey, so you didn't get the result. What are you feeling? And they can't articulate it. Oh, you know what I mean? It's like they'll go back to thoughts, thoughts, thoughts. Instead of like, what is the feeling? What's the emotion underneath it? And again, the reason why they can't articulate it, because, hey, what if that's another part of our role as parents? How does that feel? What are you experiencing? And we can help them give terms and language to what they're going through, because if you can do that, they actually have more power to move through it. Sometimes all we need is to. To. To notice what we're feeling. Right. If we could just express it, if we could just get it out of our system, and then we can kind of move on to the next thing. Because this is part of what I. Yeah, this is one of the pieces of the puzzle that I do teach. There's a difference between emotions and feelings. If I were to say that to you, what would be the difference between the two?
- [47:35]
A
Oh, man, I have no idea.
- [47:38]
B
Great. So this is a good starting point. Right. And most of us don't. Right. So. And again, there's a little bit of debate about this, but I subscribe to this. So emotions are what happens kind of physiologically. They're, you know, it's the six primary emotions everybody talks about. Anger, fear, disgust, sadness, you know, surprise and happiness. Right. So we all like, okay, those are primary emotions. Those are going to happen on their own. Now, the cool thing is those things will kind of move in and out on their own, too, because those are largely physiological. Now, feelings are usually attached to thoughts or beliefs. Right. Oh, I feel hopeless or I feel betrayed. That's connected to maybe, oh, I think I'm entitled to people treating me a certain way.
- [48:27]
A
I also think with the emotion, it almost just is like, I'm angry. You're clearly angry.
- [48:34]
B
Yeah.
- [48:35]
A
But when you're talking about feelings. Like, I'm frustrated. Yeah. Like, there is a. It feels like there's a choice in that a little bit. Like, I'm choosing to be frustrated about this thing.
- [48:45]
B
Yes.
- [48:46]
A
Yeah.
- [48:46]
B
Well, because part of it is this, right? If you just, you know, the emotion's gonna move through sometimes if you're sad, okay, what do I need? I need to cry if I'm angry, Maybe I need to, like, go for a run, you know, do something, shake it out. These emotions are actually pointing towards needs. So most of us don't understand that either. Right. Is like, what if every emotion and then we can also connect to feeling, they're all pointing towards a need that you have. The one. If we can't pinpoint the emotion or feeling, guess what we can't do? Pinpoint what need we have, which means that stuff is stored in our body, and now it metastasizes. So it shows up as hopelessness. It shows up as entitlement. It shows up as blame, which. It was a part of my conversation today. Things weren't going right, and it was blame, blame, blame. This person did this. This person did that. Well, some of that is because. Hey, what's the. That's why I was asking him that question. What's the feeling that you have? And the more we sat with it, he didn't. He didn't know it, but the more I was listening to his language, I was like, well, it sounds like you're worried. Sounds like that's what you're feeling. Or another one that popped up. It sounds like you're feeling doubt. Sounds like you're feeling insecure. And he was like, yeah. And then he said something to me that was, like, really brilliant. He's like, I'm afraid to be vulnerable and admit that, because even that. Right. Is, like, now. Oh, what if that's what you need, though? You need to be vulnerable to express it, let it out, and now you're free. But if you can't even admit, you'll never express it and it'll stay here, which is why that tightness continues.
- [50:30]
A
Well, and this is a big problem with, you know, speaking of the big leagues. The big leagues is just what the big leagues is like. There's a high expectation. I don't have the luxury of feeling anything. I need to completely mute any sort of anything that. That emotionally or physiologically is going to not put me in the most optimal position. Can't afford it. Right. The minute I, you know, recognize my conscience, I'm gonna get optioned down or released or whatever it is. So they build this facade of the only possible outcome here is perfection.
- [51:13]
B
Yeah, right. Yeah.
- [51:15]
A
And we wonder why these MLB organizations aren't getting the most out of kids.
- [51:21]
B
Yeah. Well, do you hear, I mean, you know, and again, I think you're painting a picture based on stuff that you, you have heard yourself, because I have heard those same things. And for you, I don't think you deliberately pinpointed tons of messages that are rooted in fear, but every single, almost every single message that you communicated right there is a fear based message. And that's exactly the culture that all these young guys and gals are being brought up in. So then of course, what they're living in is a survival mode, you know, and then as parents, we've subscribed to it too. Dog eat dog, yo, you gotta go kill. You got. And, and now it's life. It's life. It's life. Instead of being like, we don't have to subscribe to that. Let's chase mastery, let's chase thriving, let's chase creativity, let's chase authenticity. Because I'm, I'm telling you, I'm telling you, I'm telling you, the more we get this, if you can help your kid truly, authentically pursue something because they love it and they're deeply interested in it and they find purpose in it, they're going to be way better than that kid who's rooted in fear. It just takes a lot more skill and patience for you as a parent to relate to them that way and build a culture that way. It's, it's, it's just not going to happen as fast as you want. But I guarantee you the roots will be deeper. And again, they're gonna, you know, that that tree will be taller.
- [52:50]
A
So I want to, I guess pivot really fast for the remaining time that we have. And I want to address a certain parent on or who's listening. And let's just say that their son is one of the best kids in the country. And all signs are pointing to he's going to have an opportunity to get drafted really high.
- [53:11]
B
Right.
- [53:11]
A
Maybe he's going to these All American games. Maybe he's ranked high on all these things. And they're like, it's too late for that, right? Yeah, that I wish I would have known. I wish I would have known that at 10.
- [53:25]
B
Yeah.
- [53:25]
A
Right. When my son was 10. But they have another call it almost 12 months, a little less than 12 months until their son is drafted. And all the things that we are Talking about right now, especially as we describe the big league players that we're referring to, these are things that they're going to ultimately step into at the next level. And if they don't address them now, they're going to need to be addressed later. And by the way, I'm not trying to say, like, here's the five things that you need to do, but I would love to, like, speak to them a little bit about, you know, come 11 and a half months from now when the draft comes for next year, and all these parents are like, it's the draft. My son's got to do this. And the kids are like, I have to do this because I've seen these kids. They've built it up in their mind.
- [54:12]
B
Yeah.
- [54:12]
A
That all of my buddies know I'm one of the draft prospects. They see all these scouts at the games, they see that they're committed to the greatest programs in the country. The LSU's, the Arkansas, Texas, Georgia, you know, UCLA, all the best ones. And they have to live up to an expectation. Both the parents feel this way. Cuz like, yeah, they're, they're still like a. It's not that it's a popularity contest, but like, I'm sure on some level it feels good when you step into a stadium and everyone's like, oh, that's so and so's dad, that's so and so's mom. There comes a point in time where now the draft is here and they have built it up to be so big. What would you say to those parents who have the next 11 months, how to make that time useful, where they can, like, pause for a second, say, thank God I heard this conversation, because it made me realize that even though we only have 11 months, I want to make sure that I spend this time, like, being aware of this stuff with my kid.
- [55:20]
B
Yeah, I think the, the, the first thing would be. It's kind of the way that you framed it. Hey, too late. I think the first thing would be actually saying kind of teaching your kid this. It's never too late. You can always pivot, you can always upgrade. You can always figure out the thing that was missing and start to implement it now. And if, and if you invest in your kid that way, where you help them understand, one of the greatest things that you can do is adapt. And you gotta admit when you're wrong. And I really think that's one of the best things that we could do for our kids, is display for them. Hey, I was wrong. I made some mistakes along the way Best Intentions was doing the best that I can with what I had. I love you, and I want the best for you. And I'm realizing maybe I was forcing some stuff. The good news is we can start from scratch. And I'm glad we're catching it right now, because we're catching it right now. I have a feeling that when we start to implement it, it's going to change your future. You know what I mean? Like, where you're drafted, hey, we can't control that. What we can control is this piece of the puzzle, which is investing in your identity, investing in your character, the habits, the mindset, this. This teachability. Right. Being committed to growth. I want to show you that first as a parent is like, I'll get it wrong. I'm gonna continue to get it wrong. But what I'll never do is stick to my guns when I'm wrong.
- [56:53]
A
What a great lesson.
- [56:54]
B
You know what I mean?
- [56:54]
A
Yeah. No, seriously, what a great lesson. Because how many. How many of us, right. Had a parent? And again, they didn't. They didn't. They didn't mean any ill will by this. But, like, yeah, my parent was never wrong.
- [57:08]
B
Yeah. Well, to me, it's like, there's a reason why there's a steering wheel and a rear view on a car, because once you realize I'm kind of going in the wrong direction, you turn that bad boy around. It's the same for us as people. Turn around, go in a different direction. You know what I mean? And learn from that. Because that alone, even if it's just that one thing, just keep modeling it in front of your kids. Humility, teachability, adaptability, flexibility, whatever you want to call it, the willingness to say, ooh, I flubbed it, but I'll show up tomorrow and I'll be different. That alone will help your kid be a better everything, not just an athlete.
- [57:53]
A
That's great. That was awesome. Yeah. As I think about the time that we have from now until the draft, I mean, it is kind of funny how I. I framed it that way, because it does. It feels like, oh, it's going to be here before you know it. And if I'm feeling that way, I can't even imagine as a parent, you're like, oh, my gosh. Like, I remember when he was, yeah. 12, and now he's 17. And like, this whole thing may happen for us.
- [58:20]
B
Absolutely.
- [58:21]
A
But, you know, the parent, again, as an agent, when we have hundreds of conversations and hundreds of meetings with the players and the parents. Right. We can convey Something over and over. We can prepare them, we can tell them exactly how it's going to go. But at some point, the phone call ends, the meeting's over, and you guys get in your car, you all drive home and then you talk about all the different things that we had addressed. And there's a plenty opportunities for the parent to almost double down on like that initial thought process of like, I know that the way that they just phrase that was like, hey, anything could happen, but not for you, son, you're going to do this, right? And now the confidence is a good thing. Like, I believe in you, but that's where it's like, you can do this because I believe in you. Not it's just going to happen differently for you. And then setting this expectation where when it doesn't, it's like you're leaving him out there feeling like, oh, now what? And so that is something that I do want to make sure every parent understands is the reason why this is such an important topic is because your role is so meaningful.
- [59:41]
B
Yeah, so meaningful.
- [59:42]
A
That's where it comes from. It's all the, it's the foundation for everything, literally.
- [59:50]
B
Right. It's the most important relationship that establishes everything for our kids. And so that's why, you know, I'm hoping people sense this, right, because this was a very proud parent conversation. And in the same way that the parent would say, oh, I'm, you know, like, I got to be hard on them, I think what we're doing is like, hey, let's be direct. Because to me, this is what a part of what love is is. Love is direct. It's not hard on people. But there's a truth telling nature to love. And that's where I think you, when you can sense the energy of it is like, hey, because I love you, I'm going to tell you the truth because I love you, I'm going to be honest with you. I'm going to, I'm going to reveal something, I'm going to say something that may sting, but trust me, if you can sit with it and miss the discomfort of it all, it will teach you something and it will transform you.
- [60:42]
A
I think there's a ton of value too. And again, I'm not talking about a kid who's 12, but for the player out there who's hearing this and he's like, man, you just described like my childhood or whatever, and however old you are now, you could be 16, incapable of realizing this. Yeah, I think it's easy for a player to be Like, I knew it.
- [61:03]
B
Sure.
- [61:04]
A
Dad was so hard on me. Mom was difficult. Not my fault. I got screwed. Right, man, I got dealt a bad hand, whatever it is. But why can't you be the one that is? If maybe your parent, maybe they just. I don't know, they can't get themselves to have this conversation with you. Yeah, it doesn't have to come from them. It could actually come from. Yeah, why not the kid? And I know that that's crazy to say, again, depending on the age. But we see it obviously with. With the guys that you're describing who are big leaguers, who I'm willing to bet, yeah, they're having hard conversations now at 25, 30 years old. There could have been a conversation that happened at 2019 that could have changed everything.
- [61:56]
B
Absolutely.
- [61:57]
A
And that's where I think there is a responsibility. As much as it's. In my opinion. I almost feel like it's the responsibility of the person who's aware of it. The parent may not even be aware that they're doing it.
- [62:11]
B
I think for the most part, parents are not. And this is where. This is part of what's fascinating about all this to me. The more I've taken a deep dive here. I think in the beginning, when you realize, oh, there's a wound that I have. There's like a trauma, a wound, whatever you want to call it, and that was inflicted on me by the way that my parents related to me or all that other stuff in the beginning, I think we're offended by it. But the more I've gotten older and realized, oh, that wound is a gift because there's wisdom in it. On the surface level, it's a wound, but deep down, it's a superpower. So some of the things that I experienced with my dad, with my mom, that didn't feel good and actually, you know, created an adaptation in me were hurtful, but it also created something strong in me. And when I can dig deep and find it, I'm like, oh, this is something that nobody else has. So thank you weirdly enough for the pain and suffering, mom and dad, because I needed this. I needed this to get strong. You know what I mean? And maybe this is part two, but it's just this understanding that part of the point is, as parents, we're not going to get it. All right? Even the ways that can, I swear. Yeah. Even the ways that we fuck it up will end up blessing our child. Like, that's the crazy thing, you know, you'll do the best that you can. I will hurt my children. I will do something that messes them up. And from that place, they'll actually find a strength. They'll find wisdom, you know, they'll find power. And so this is what can release me from trying to be perfect myself, is understanding. Even at the end of the day, that stuff is going to be good.
- [63:59]
A
All right, so I have a question. This is something totally just. Well, it's related, but not, I guess, in the same way. So you're a dad.
- [64:06]
B
Yeah.
- [64:06]
A
You have conversations with these big league guys and again, professional basketball players, too. Hockey players, etc. Is it crazy? Like, you're getting this amazing education of, like, how do I want my son to describe me one day, man?
- [64:22]
B
It really is. So I'll just share something. Actually, right now, that's pretty relevant. My son is two years old. He's a G Lil Koa. And, you know, he's literally got, like, a faux hawk. He's got. Yeah, he's got exactly. He's got, like, the do, the main. And he's in his no era, right? Everything's no. Everything's no. But even if he wants it, it's no.
- [64:47]
A
Oh, interesting.
- [64:47]
B
So it's very strange. So he's saying no to things that he doesn't want.
- [64:51]
A
That, you know, you're like, yeah.
- [64:52]
B
I'm like, buddy, you want. Yeah, I'm like, you want. You want this?
- [64:55]
A
No Mild ice cream.
- [64:57]
B
And, you know, as a parent, I'm. I'm kind of understanding. Part of this is him figuring out who he is. Right. Setting boundaries. But also, it's this thing that I can sense, too. He's almost testing me. I can feel it at this weird age where he's like, are. Are you safe to be around? Oh, are you going to force me? At this young age? And the part of how it stuck.
- [65:25]
A
Out, Man's Einstein, bro. He's brilliant.
- [65:28]
B
It's wild because, again, like, our nervous system is fascinating. And again, you know, we can talk more about that stuff later. But part of the nervous system is built for, like, I gotta. I gotta keep myself safe. So what my son is doing, right, is he's testing people around him. I'm one of those people to see, like, are you safe? Can I hold boundaries with you? Are you going to push things on me? So literally sometimes I'm like, you know, for last night, I wanted to put a pajama top on him. And he's like, no, no. And in my mind, I'm like, well, you have to do it. But then I catch myself. I'm like, you kind of don't, Right. I let him be free, and then I try again. No, guy, you don't have to. And then eventually, what's wild is he does come around, and. And then I can see he lets me do it.
- [66:17]
A
Because you didn't force it on him, right? At what point, though, was that dangerous, right?
- [66:23]
B
What do you mean?
- [66:23]
A
We're like, at what age is it like, listen, man, Daddy said it. Let's go.
- [66:29]
B
So there's a fine line, right? This is why I said with the pajama top, he's not gonna die if I don't put the pajama top on him.
- [66:36]
A
But he's like, let me get your car keys down. Six years old. I'm gonna take your whip on a ride right now.
- [66:40]
B
This is one thing that he also wants to do right now is he doesn't want to get in his car seat.
- [66:45]
A
Oh, yeah.
- [66:45]
B
So that's not a no.
- [66:46]
A
It's a different story.
- [66:47]
B
That's a different no. But again, I think there's an art form to it, is, you know, the other day, same thing. He started to, like, melt down. And what I noticed this happened with my daughter, too. I had, like, a different moment with both of them. I'll actually share about my daughter because I, you know, we were running late going to school. I'm, like, putting her in her seat, and she starts to melt down. And my instinct was, well, tough. Like, put the seatbelt on and, like, we're going to school. And then I caught myself. I was like, hold on. If we're late, it's okay. I unbuckled her. I. I put it to my chest. And, you know, it's called co regulation. Right. Is like, essentially, I am a regulating force in my child's life. So in order for her to calm down, she needs to sense my calm nervous system. I put it to my chest, just took a couple beats with her, took some deep breaths. She could sense my energy, and she regulated. She stopped crying. I put her down again, buckled the seatbelt, and it was all good. But it's this tiny little thing where I could have forced it because that, you know. Oh, it's safety. Instead of saying okay in my mind, if we're late to school, that's okay. I'd rather have the message.
- [68:04]
A
Yeah.
- [68:05]
B
That I instilled in that moment. But again, it's a fine line. Right. As a parent, I am gonna. I am gonna advocate for her safety and my son's safety. I'm not gonna let them do whatever they want. But I think there's a healthy way to go about it.
- [68:18]
A
I feel like awareness, man, like, that word just keep. Keeps coming up to me. Like, I feel like that that's not everything, but it's kind of where it starts. It's. Because how many people would have just reacted and, you know, completely unaware of. I got to get to work. I just, I don't care. It doesn't matter. I'll, I'll, I'll do that stuff later. I'll do it tonight, whatever. Or, you know, I. I gave you that yesterday. No, today you have to do what I say.
- [68:46]
B
Sure.
- [68:47]
A
And yeah, it's like if you would, if you, if you could pause and if you had the ability to pause and like, put things in perspective, like, immediately. And that's what, like, awareness is for me.
- [68:58]
B
Yes.
- [68:59]
A
You're just like, oh, yeah.
- [69:01]
B
Well, I have the luxury of this being my line of work. Right. Because I think, again, this is where I don't want to, you know, there's no shame around parents for we, we all mess it up. And I do too, that I have the luxury of being in a line of work where awareness is kind of the foundation. So it's like I'm like, oh, hold on, what's happening? What else do I have access to? Great. I got my principles and values in place.
- [69:24]
A
By the way, if we were talking about marriage, we'd be like, that ain't.
- [69:28]
B
Such a good thing. Yeah, exactly.
- [69:29]
A
Everybody thinks about like, oh, what if I was married to a therapist? It's like, no, like psychoanalyzing me for sure.
- [69:34]
B
I can, I can. We have a whole nother session about, man, how that gets in my way as a, as a husband. Because, yeah, I definitely don't want to step into coach mode.
- [69:44]
A
My dog.
- [69:45]
B
Yeah.
- [69:45]
A
I mean, I don't need to tell your Yoda again.
- [69:48]
B
We're doing it. We're doing it, man. Thank you.
- [69:50]
A
I learn every single time we talk. For anybody who wants to learn more about you, what's your, what's your social. What's your website?
- [69:59]
B
Yeah, hit me up. Johan speaks Instagram. I feel like I'm not. I haven't taken the dive into the tick tock world.
- [70:04]
A
Me neither.
- [70:05]
B
Yeah. Yeah. But development studio is the website.
- [70:09]
A
Also spell it for him because isn't it.
- [70:11]
B
Oh, yeah. So it's dvlpmnt.studio if you want to look into the coaching firm and then, you know, johancalian.com for anything. Also just my own personal coaching stuff.
- [70:23]
A
I'll put it in the show notes too. So everybody has it.
- [70:25]
B
Great.
- [70:27]
A
I feel like, what are we gonna do, another one in, like, six days?
- [70:30]
B
Straight up? Let's go.
- [70:31]
A
Let's go.
- [70:32]
B
We gotta go. Different cities. That's what I'm just saying. That's what I'm saying. A tour. Yeah.
- [70:35]
A
My dog. Thank you, bro. Appreciate you.
- [70:45]
B
Sam.