Asit Sharma (2:38)

My second grade teacher told me that and it was so inspiring. I really appreciate you reminding me of that. That's so great. So I'll take another quick shot at this answer. So it's an easy way for some investors to buy into Bitcoin. There is the possibility that the yield that the company talks about, its bitcoin yield, could be a thing in the future. So as it builds this huge base of bitcoin on its balance sheet and Bitcoin rises in value, that future yield of its, you know, lending out its bitcoin for a return is going to be worth something big. And I think the ability of Microstrategy in the future, perhaps to sell some of its bitcoin and invest in other things that might be crypto related is enticing to some people. But all in all, it's just a bet on the future value of bitcoin. I'd be careful.

Ricky Mulvey (3:30)

Oh, I don't think Michael Saylor has any intention of ever selling bitcoin. If you listen to him in any conversation, interview or communication, Mr. Assit, he's.

Asit Sharma (3:40)

A great salesperson, among other things.

Ricky Mulvey (3:43)

Maybe he's a great. That's a, that is a, that is a really good qualifier. All right.

Asit Sharma (3:48)

You have to be as a CEO in this day and age. So that again, sounds a little sarcastic, but it's not. Let's, you know, play the logic out. If you're running a company that's in the NASDAQ 100 index, you should be a good salesperson for your products and, or services.

Ricky Mulvey (4:03)

Maybe not to the extent of MicroStrategy, which has really gone all in on Bitcoin. Do you expect to see more companies as we see this sort of mainstream invest acceptance among investors, among regulators, even among politicians? The incoming administration likes its Bitcoin. Do you expect to see more companies putting more Bitcoin onto their balance sheet in the years ahead?

Asit Sharma (4:24)

I do. MicroStrategy wants to be the company known as a complete treasury company. For Bitcoin, that means its reserves, its balance sheet, its liquid assets as a function of its treasury. How it manages its stuff is all in bitcoin. But other companies are going to want to hedge the financial assets on their balance sheets. So it's one way to look at participating in both new technology and an instrument that could store some value. So we'll see more of this, not in huge measures by sensible companies that have very diversified business models, but we'll see a small trend in this direction.

Ricky Mulvey (5:04)

Let's go to this Apple story, the Wall Street Journal reporting that Apple is rethinking the iPhone and getting some details into how they're doing. So step one, Apple is planning to introduce a thinner, cheaper phone with a simplified camera system, hoping that a cheaper price is going to draw more people to buy a new iPhone. And then step two, which is that Apple is planning two foldable devices. From the Wall Street Journal, quote, a larger device intended to serve as a laptop would have a screen that unfolds to be nearly the size of some desktop monitors at 19 inches. And a smaller model would unfold to a display size that would be larger than an iPhone, 16 Pro Max. But this would be intended to serve as a foldable iPhone. I know you're going back. You want phones to be less distracting, but are either of these interesting to you as a buyer? Do you want a foldable smartphone?

Asit Sharma (5:57)

I think you have to compete, if you're Apple as an innovator to keep that mantle of being the Ford device companies. So there's one argument that even if Apple doesn't think that a foldable phone is the best business proposition now, they almost have to come to the market with some. I like thinner myself in form factors, and I do like cheaper. So what Apple is doing here is really expanding on its ability to entice customers to have to trade up. And trading up in the future might mean just trading into something that you're more comfortable with. Now that we've seemingly exhausted all that innovation excitement, we've seen this petering out with every iPhone release. I like this strategy, and I think Apple should be doing this. I think they should be serving up a choice of form factors and settle on the one that the mass of consumers who are going to upgrade start to really adopt and enjoy.

Ricky Mulvey (6:55)

Well, there's some significant engineering challenges here, and I wouldn't want to bet against the engineers over at Apple. But there is an issue with a lot of the foldable phones, which is that the more that you use them, the more that you have sort of like a creased screen in the middle at the folding point. And for. For a company like Samsung, it's seen its folding phones decline in sales as it's tried to introduce them. But when you're looking at this concept, what do you think Apple needs to figure out before presenting it to a mass market?

Asit Sharma (7:26)

It might be working on that line. Apple is known for the clarity of its output. They've always been a leader in that. The spectacular colors that we seem to get with subsequent generations of their devices. So I think for them this is a supply chain problem, Ricky, and it's one that we used to think Apple could solve overnight back in the day. And I do think that the company has still so much it can bring to consumers in terms of innovation. So I'd be working on this problem and that would be fantastic. If they could solve that, they'd immediately have an advantage over Samsung and rekindle the interest in this form factor.

Ricky Mulvey (8:05)

The other way that it's trying to rekindle growth is with that Vision Pro, but it's still trying to figure out an exact path forward. The Wall Street Journal reporting that it's undecided on figuring out that exact path forward. And I think it's an interesting question because there are some, I would say bears on the Apple Vision Pro saying that this will be remembered in the hall of failures. This will be a big mistake, but maybe it can work. I think there are some interesting use cases. I got to try one on myself. If you go to an Apple Store, you can sign up for a demo and they give you a little fireworks show. It's pretty cool. But let's say Tim Cook, CEO has hired you, asit is a consultant to figure out this path forward. We need to find some growth and your department is the Apple Vision Pro. Asit, what is going in your consultant's PowerPoint for what they can do with the Apple Vision Pro?

Asit Sharma (8:56)

So, Tim, you have two big problems with the Vision Pro. Hello? Oh, sorry. Yes, Mr. Cook, sir. We have two big opportunities with the Vision Pro. The first is we have a wait opportunity. The technology is dazzling, but I got tired after a very short trial. And so I think to bring this to a mass market for consumers, we need to work on the weight factor. The second opportunity is we have a compute opportunity here. I don't think we have really kept up with bringing AI to devices. This is an opportunity for us to leverage the AI expertise the world has yet to see, to be competitive with some models that will probably be introduced by Meta, even by Alphabet, in the near future. So I think these two opportunities are ones we can capitalize on. Thirdly, I would say we need to focus a little bit more on the business market. We should bring down the price point just a hair as we improve the technological quotient of the Vision Pro and start using it for business collaboration. That's been Meta's plan all along and I think they will be soon pushing the gas on this idea within the next two years.

Ricky Mulvey (10:14)

I'll give you a free one, which is that you set up some Apple kiosks at different airports and then you let people rent the Vision Pro for different airplane flights so they can watch a movie, play around with it while they're on a flight. That one's free. The next one's not. Asad Sharma. This comes from Breakfast News, which is our free email that you can sign up for. We'll include a link in the description. And each day there's a. There's a question to get the people talking in. Today's question is about this story asking what will be Apple's next big revenue generator and why Vision Pro smart glasses, which we haven't gotten to yet. The foldable iPhone. Something else. Or maybe it doesn't have one. This is a mature business.

Asit Sharma (10:55)

In a research meeting, in a smaller team research meeting at the Motley Fool, I brought up the idea of Apple losing yet a little bit more of its competitiveness when Jony Ives left the business. And I was fiercely challenged by many of my fellow analysts saying that Apple still has a lot of design power and a lot of innovation power the market has yet to see. So I'm going to go with something else because obviously my friends know something that I don't about the company.

Ricky Mulvey (11:22)

Let's go on to this future story in the New York Times. I think this is interesting because it encouraged you hopefully as an investor to think about how could the companies you own get disrupted. There's a new ride hailing service that's rolling out in Washington D.C. that is really trying to basically out Uber. Uber. The New York Times reporting that Empower, yes, the company is called empower now, does 100,000 rides per week in Washington and that is now more than the city's taxis. Here's the premise. Drivers pay a flat subscription fee to the company each month, which is around 350 bucks. Then they can set their own rates for rides and take home 100% of the fair. This is a very different model then Uber and Lyft, which likes to take a chunk of each fare you pay them. I think for me, at least as a customer, ride hailing and driving is kind of a commodity game. If I'm a rider, I want the best price and if you're a driver, you want to make the most money. But there's a lot of regulatory challenges here. Asit, when you were parsing through this story, are you seeing a real disruptor to Uber and Lyft?

Asit Sharma (12:29)

I'm not sure if it's real. It is a disruptor, it is a challenger. And this is the fate of all things which aren't unique. So you may be onto something, Ricky. If this is a commodity, here's the business model challenge to say, prove to me this isn't a commodity. Now, you'd mentioned to me that they've racked up $100 million in unpaid fines, I think just within Washington D.C. where they began, because they're pulling an Uber and a Lyft. That is to go into a market, not worry about the regulations and build out the model. But whether this is real. To answer your question, that depends on when they grow up, if they can make enough money at 350 odd bucks per driver to cover all the costs that are associated with a business like this. They haven't had to grow up yet and worry about someone who had a bad experience in an Empower drive and having to enforce different types of behaviors with their drivers. The regulatory piece is a big one, so we'll see. I didn't note that they've raised a bunch of money yet. A bunch of capital, the capital they would need to truly compete. But boy, it's interesting to see how fast they've been able to grow in just one metropolitan area. And I understand that some of our colleagues have started using this as well.

Ricky Mulvey (13:46)

Yeah. So Dylan's out in D.C. and he basically looked at what a ride from his house to our headquarters in Alexandria was. Lyft 47 bucks, Uber 26 bucks, and Empower 23 bucks. So the average that's mentioned on in the New York Times story was like a 20 to 30% discount to use Empower rather than the big two here. But I'm telling you, if I need to get to the airport, I'm looking for price pretty immediately. And I think that if Empower comes to Denver, I would be a pretty happy customer of it. You mentioned the regulatory frameworks assit, and yes, the startup has racked up $100 million in fines. It is trying a legal defense, which is essentially that we are not a ride hailing company. We are a. We are like a reservation app system because the drivers are the ones doing that. And basically that framing is trying to absolve it from the registration requirements that basically like guarantee that the drivers have commercial insurance. In, in D.C. there's like a, like a taxi ride hailing agency that I think gets 6% of the money that goes through. And Empower would rather not pay that. And that's why you're seeing the rack up in fines. Also, a judge ordering the company to cease operations, the company continuing on anyway now ait sometimes the end of that story is a company like Uber and Lift, which did a similar playbook, we're rolling in and we're going to kind of disregard these taxi regulations. Sometimes the company ends up being like a bird scooter where you see them everywhere and then now you don't see them so much anymore. Is this the best way to do a disruptive startup? Do you think it's better to just sort of, you know, thumb your nose at the regulatory frameworks and whatever happens happens?

Asit Sharma (15:33)

I mean I think if you have a direct line to Masayoshi san in Japan who loves just a crazy nutty idea, you know, a punch you in the face crazy idea. Yeah, this is not a bad way if you don't have that though. The problem is getting other investors to come in after that first wave of capital. If I'm a venture capitalist and you're pitching me this idea and you've got a contingent liability on your books for $100 million and there's a total of 19 or 20 million dollars invested in the business so far with an uncertain outcome. If I try to help you grow, I'm not that interested. So I don't think it's the best way for most people. But you know, if you got friends with deep pockets, who will ride with you there, why not?

Ricky Mulvey (16:18)

Awesome. Who doesn't have baggage? Everyone's got some problems and you just got to work through it. I think that's a good place to end it. Appreciate you being here. Thank you for your time and your insight.

Asit Sharma (16:28)

Thanks so much. This was great fun, Ricky.

Ricky Mulvey (16:37)

Up next, my colleague Mary Long continues her conversation series about shipping companies, this time catching up with Motley fool senior analyst Anthony Chavon about ups, which has a major competitor in its biggest customer.

Mary Long (16:56)

And the holidays have gotten me thinking a lot more about shipping and how gifts that I might order online get from point A to point B. I talked to Lou Whiteman about FedEx a couple of days ago and now you're here to shine a light on a competitor of FedEx, UPS, United Parcel Service. So maybe let's start there on this competition piece. It's tempting, especially from like a consumer side to lump all of these logistics companies into a single bucket and say, eh, they kind of all do the same thing. Are there differentiators here? But does ups, we'll, we'll focus on them first. Do they have a moat? And if so, what is it?

Anthony Chabon (17:29)

Yeah, so I think UPS definitely has a moat around its business. We can argue about whether that moat is growing or shrinking, but this business definitely has some competitive advantages. So I think the big one is barriers to entry in this business, right? I mean, they think about how many billions of dollars would need to be spent just to replicate their network of trucks, planes, warehouses, even their labor force. So we're talking like hundreds of billions of dollars. And that doesn't even include the brand equity that UPS has really built throughout its 100 plus year history. And I know we'll talk about Amazon in a bit, but Amazon spent more than $100 billion building out their delivery network over the last, call it 15 plus years and they're still one of UPS's largest customers. So I don't think there's many companies with $100 billion just, just waiting around, waiting to be invested. So that barrier to entry is very real. And then if you look at the competitive landscape Today, it's essentially UPS, FedEx and Amazon, the U.S. and then you have DHL in Europe. So these are all really strong competitors. They're all kind of in the same business. I kind of like UPS though, because they have their integrated ground and express network. So you have the same driver delivering both express and ground deliveries, whereas FedEx is still a little bit. Their networks don't necessarily talk to each other as much anymore. I know, I think I listened to your podcast with Lou and he talked about how they're kind of combining that over the past year. So that's potentially, you know, a competitive threat to watch moving forward. But yeah, I think this market is huge and I think all these companies kind of have some form of moat.

Mary Long (19:18)

And for those who maybe have heard these words but don't fully know what they mean in practice, what is the difference between express and ground?

Anthony Chabon (19:25)

Ground is essentially like your standard shipping. It'll arrive in three to five business days, that sort of thing. It's being delivered on a, on a truck, from warehouse to a truck. Express is more like, I kind of need that package the next day, so it's flying on a plane, an end to your house. So it's expressed kind of how that sounds is just a quicker form of that delivery.

Mary Long (19:49)

If you're a business that's looking to strike a deal with any of these logistics companies, are there any factors that you're looking at apart from speed and price, or is it really that simple?

Anthony Chabon (20:01)

Yeah, I think those are two big ones. I also think that, you know, one thing a business looks at is the reliability of the service provider. And so I was at Costco last week and I Promise. I'll tie this in and answer your question. But there was an employee holding up a sign advertising gold bars. And so I did a little bit of research and it turns out that you could buy these gold bars in store or you can buy them online. And if you buy them online, guess who's shipping the gold bars? It's ups. So they are the trusted logistics partner to move high value goods like gold bars. And the fact that Costco, which is, you know, a company that always puts its members first, chooses UPS to deliver that product, I think that's a pretty good sign that they're the trusted partner in this space. And you know, that's a reputation, a brand equity that again has been built for, you know, 100 plus years. So I would say reliability along with, you know, price and speed is definitely what businesses are looking for.

Mary Long (21:03)

Amazon is obviously a big player in this logistics game over. And it has and has built that, carved that space out for themselves over the past several years. Amazon is UPS largest customer. They're responsible for about 12% of UPS's revenue. Is that a positive, is that a strength for ups or does that kind of present a potential existential risk for the company?

Anthony Chabon (21:23)

Is it a risk? Yes, it's definitely a risk. Is it existential? I don't believe so. Like we talked about earlier, Amazon's been out more than $100 billion to build their delivery network, yet they're still UPS largest customer. So while they're definitely competitors, they're still partners. You know, one good example of that is Amazon's fulfillment centers. They're not really designed to process returns, so they rely on UPS. And I think FedEx is getting involved with this as well, but they rely on those companies for returns. So I think that's one example. And then like Lou said in the podcast, this market is so big for all of these competitors, I think that's spot on. Amazon is best in class for last mile delivery, but there's other forms of delivery like cold change logistics, returns like we just mentioned, high value goods like the gold bars from Costco. And so I think Amazon has maybe less expertise in those areas and its supply chain isn't necessarily equipped to handle things like that. So yeah, Amazon's definitely a risk, but, but I don't think it's necessarily existential, at least at this point.

Mary Long (22:34)

UPS got a new CEO in 2020, Carol Tomei, and she's got quite an impressive track record in the business community. She labeled her strategy upon arrival at UPS better, not bigger. What does better not Bigger look like in practice.

Anthony Chabon (22:49)

One thing she talked a lot about is that not all packages are created equal. So you think about UPS over the past, right? Success was always predicated on increasing package volumes because if you generate more sales and you have the same fixed cost structure, you generate more cash. So you would think like the rapid growth in E commerce over the last 15 years would be a huge tailwind for this business, but that hasn't necessarily been the case because a lot of that E commerce growth has been package volume growth from last mile delivery, small package delivery. So think of like your typical Amazon purchase, right? That's a very low margin delivery for UPS because the driver needs to drive down each driveway, they need to walk to each doorstep, deliver each package, and then on top of that you need to build more warehouses and hire more employees to handle the higher package volumes. So over that time, UPS got bigger, but their profitability didn't necessarily increase, it actually declined. So when Carol Tomey took over, she kind of refocused the company on higher quality revenue or higher margin package volumes. That's things like growing healthcare delivery volumes, growing package volumes to small and medium sized businesses, consolidating warehouses, divesting, underperforming businesses, all that kind of stuff aimed at increasing profitability, not necessarily increasing revenue or volume growth. So kind of the big idea was, you know, get more efficient and generate more cash flow.

Mary Long (24:22)

Tomi's called the UPS dividend a hallmark of the company's financial strength. What is her approach to capital allocation and returning value to shareholders? And does that represent a, a change in direction from previous leadership?

Anthony Chabon (24:36)

Yeah, so I think kind of building off the better, not bigger idea. I think Tome thinks about capital allocation sort of the same way. Before she became CEO of UPS, she was the CFO at Home Depot for about 20 years. And if you look at Home Depot's history, In the early 2000s, they were a company that was mainly focused on store growth. But around that time she and the team there, they pretty much stopped new store openings and they really started cranking up the cash generation machine that we know in Home Depot today. And they started returning a lot of capital shareholders through dividends and buybacks. And so I think she's kind of following the same playbook here at ups. They're not looking to grow package volumes at any cost. They pay out a huge dividend now, which Tome and the board increased pretty substantially right after she took over. I think they increased it by 50% within the first year after she took over. And they were repurchasing some shares here and there. So I'm not sure that the capital allocation approach has changed too much from her predecessors. But really the big change is the focus on quality growth, quality revenue growth, quality volume growth. I think that's really the big change here.

Mary Long (25:46)

If you look at a stock chart of UPS and compare it to the returns of the S P500, the two kind of track each other over the long term until you get to 2023 last year and they sharply diverge. In the past 10 years the S P 500 has returned over 250%, UPS returned 62%. And again a lot of that divergence kind of happened within the past year. What's the reasoning behind that gap?

Anthony Chabon (26:10)

Yeah, I think, I think it's kind of been a perfect storm for UPS's business and stock over the last two to three years. Call it, you've had the pandemic era. You had a package surge, volume surge during the pandemic when everybody was home buying packages. And now that's kind of flipped and UPS is now delivering fewer packages per day than they did a few years ago. You've also had the new labor agreement that UPS signed the Teamsters last fall. So that's increased their costs pretty substantially. You've had higher interest rates, which you know, impacts a capital intensive business like UPS. Plus the 5% dividend yield doesn't look, you know, as attractive to income investors as it did when, when interest rates were, you know, closer to zero. So I think that's played in effect, but I think really like over the last year, year and a half, two years, I think the big thing from a stock performance perspective, and you mentioned 2023, that's when I came onto the scene and a lot of investors capital left, mature dividend paying companies and you know, found a home in big tech AI stocks. I think that you know, might be part of the divergence there. Not sure if it's the driving force but, but it's, you know, it's definitely been a challenging period for UPS's business, but I think there's, there's a lot of negativity, you know, already baked into the stock price right now.

Mary Long (27:33)

Earlier this year, UPS sold Coyote Logistics, a third party logistics provider. They sold it to rxo. What exactly is third party logistics and why did UPS want to get out of that business?

Anthony Chabon (27:44)

Yeah, so third party logistics, it's essentially like refers to a business that, that outsources logistics services to another company. So that was Coyote Logistics. It's a, it's a cyclical capital intensive, lower margin business. And that's ultimately why UPS decided to to get out of that business. It's part of their larger, better, not bigger strategy. So that was a part of that. And I got to say, as far as capital allocation goes, like, if there's one thing I would look at, I love dividends as a dividend investor. But there's one thing I really want to look at, it's companies that divest underperforming businesses. I think that is something that creates a lot of value that really doesn't get a lot of attention but is very important to long term value creation.

Mary Long (28:31)

Anthony Chabon, thanks as always for joining us on Motley Fool Money. Really appreciate the time and the look at ups.

Anthony Chabon (28:38)

Thanks for having me.

Ricky Mulvey (28:45)

As always. People on the program may have interests in the stocks they talk about and the Motley fool may have formal recommendations for or against. So don't buy or sell anything based solely on what you hear. All personal finance content follows Motley fool editorial standards and are not approved by advertisers. The Motley fool only picks products that I would personally recommend to friends like you. I'm Ricky Mulvey. Thanks for listening. We'll be back tomorrow.