Mary Long (5:04)

This obvious juxtaposition to be made because at least in the U.S. right, but elsewhere as well, we can venerate tech CEOs. And why, especially with that in mind, why is it that do you think that Shu chooses to keep such a low profile? To call it a low profile is also a bit of an understatement to remain so deeply anonymous.

Timothy McLaughlin (5:28)

I think part of it is the political climate in China right now. We've seen financiers, tech entrepreneurs, high flying individuals in the business world in China, been slapped down pretty hard by the government. You know, Jack Ma, I think is probably the one that most people know sort of vanished from the scene for a while during, during the crackdown on the tech sector in China a couple of years back. You know, that's not, I guess, uncommon that these people sort of kind of go off the radar for a while. Whether this, you know, what the state's involvement in that is, I think is, is difficult to know. But I think there is now a desire to stay pretty low key. I think, you know, the age of wanting to be the high flying Chinese executive, wanting to be kind of on the billionaire list or things like that. I think people would much rather avoid all of that because there are, there is a lot of attention that comes with that. We do know from other reporting on the company that the Chinese government is interested in what they're doing, that they do keep tabs, not to say keep tabs, but they're certainly kind of, you know, watching, you know, what the company does, given its size and kind of the attention that's attracted, especially again because of the geopolitical climate. So yeah, so I think that there are probably, and there is a desire to kind of stay, stay very low key. And I think that's also that kind of leads into the reason of people might ask, like, why is the company in Singapore? You know, they go to great lengths to present themselves as a Singaporean company. Even though we know most of production is in China, most of the sales are happening outside of China. You know, again, something that has become sort of a trend in the past couple years. Probably again, people mostly know ByteDance TikTok, moving their headquarters here and talking about being a Singaporean company, Singapore washing, a term that some of the more hawkish people in D.C. use for that, for that, for the practice. Now I think all of that is wanting to sort of stay off the political radar, continue business as usual without, you know, stepping on the Toes of.

Mary Long (7:24)

The state Shein is certainly sits at the intersection of lots of different geopolitical issues. And I want to touch more on those a bit down the line. But it also sits at the intersection of the conversation about fast fashion. That said, it is not the world's first fast fashion company. Before Shein came onto the scene, when did fashion first become fast?

Timothy McLaughlin (7:45)

Certainly the brands that people would be aware of that kind of get mentioned as the first generation of this would sort of be like H and M, I think would come to mind. Primark for British consumers. Zara, you know, that sort of first wave, I think that people are aware of, and I think, you know, what she did is, you know, obviously the difference or one of the major differences. They don't have brick and mortar operations. Right. It's all online, which is hugely beneficial during the pandemic. Right. They were not shuttering places, paying rent, laying off employees, because they were all online in that moment. It was very helpful to their business. So I think those are sort of the first or not first, but maybe the ones that people are familiar with. I think the argument that people will make is that Shein kind of went from fast fashion to hyper fast fashion or ultra fast fashion is something that some people use to kind of describe it. I don't think people have settled on a term just quite yet, but certainly something, I guess, new and faster. As you mentioned in the intro there, the number of products that they're producing of designs that they're putting out, hugely exceeds those kind of, you know, more traditional fast fashion brands that people might be aware of.

Mary Long (8:56)

And how exactly is she in able to take fast fashion from fast to hyper fast and beat even Zara and H and M at this fast fashion game?

Timothy McLaughlin (9:07)

Right. So I guess I touched on this a little bit of the intro. You know, a bit of it is still unknown. They talk about and they have offered or have begun to offer up their technology to other companies. They announced that a few months back. It is still, I think, a challenge to know exactly kind of what's going on. But we do know sort of the basics. And I think the basics are that they are producing much smaller batches of products than traditional fast fashion. They don't do runs of, you know, 10,000 items. They're producing a couple hundred of items spread across dozens and dozens and dozens of really small producers, primarily in Shenzhen in China. And what that does is it allows them to keep down their overhead and their warehousing fees. And I think those are two things that are very important. In the fashion industry, when you have an excess of clothes, two things happen. Not only so you make a T shirt, it's terrible. The style doesn't really catch on. You have 10,000 pieces of clothing. You have the issue of, one, you have to pay to store. It takes up space where you could be storing other stuff. Two, you might end up selling that at an end of your sale at a huge discount. So what Sheehan's argument is that they produce smaller batches and they can do this because of, again, a sort of unknown tech advances that they've made that allow them to sort of predict or guess a little bit of what people's styles or trends might be based on shopping data and things like that. And then they can make smaller runs, which saves them money, ultimately saves the consumer money, and gets the products out to the market faster. And there are certainly questions around where a lot of the artwork and designs are coming from. You know, the company is facing, I mean, I haven't checked recently, but any given time, dozens and dozens of lawsuits over copyright issues. You know, taking artists drawings or designs, slapping them on T shirts, on phone cases, on things like that. Generally what happens in those situations is that the company settles them, pays out the artists, and kind of moves along. We do know from. From reporting from Wired magazine that I cited in my piece that this cost them quite a bit of money and that they are certainly concerned from a monetary standpoint about it. There are, again, questions on how far they're going to regulate it. You know, there are, like I said, a lot of cases playing out now. And I should say these are not just like independent artists. They've been involved in lawsuits with tons of brands that people probably know. Oakley, Stussy, the list kind of. Doc Martin, you know, the list kind of goes on and on and on and on. And so that is also, I think, kind of a big issue with the company that people have been looking at.

Mary Long (11:54)

I want to focus on this technology piece because it kind of sounds like that is in some ways Shein's Secret Sauce. The Wall Street Journal reported earlier this year that Shein would start selling its supply chain technology to other brands. If that is a part of Xi and Secret Sauce, why sell it out to potential competitors or existing competitors?

Timothy McLaughlin (12:15)

A couple of things we do know. There are Chinese security companies and other companies kind of in China that have gotten like a better look. I think it kind of, you know what's going on here. And there's some interesting pieces in Chinese language media about kind of how this. This all works. We do know that they're hoovering up like a huge amount of data when you're on the website, right? What you're clicking on, how long you're hovering above items. And this goes for the app as well, right? Because the app I think is really important to mention because that's kind of like where this all started. And I think the app is, is if we're talking about the tech, not, not the production side but the consumer side. You know, I think, I do think, you know, the app is an interesting one to look at because it is really sort of gamified the shopping experience. You know, there is a lot of interactive stuff. It is kind of keeping you on the app for a while and it's like part social media, part shopping, part kind of community discussion on fashion. So it is I think a very interesting product that they have there on the phone. In terms of the production side. Yes. The technology and kind of the design center and how they go about kind of producing this stuff. They have started according to the journal report that you mentioned though we haven't seen any, I guess more news on who's taking them up on that. You know, I think there are looking for ways to diversify and they're looking for ways, new ways to kind of make money off of what they have besides just selling the clothes. And I think that offers a good opportunity to them. You know, I think that story and I ask questions about this again sort of murky on the extent of what it would be, what exactly it would look like, what companies would have access to, if any of the companies have taken them up on that. I think it's an interesting story. I'm interested to see if there's you know, follow up or further reporting on kind of like what this all means, you know, because that story was out there then we haven't seen much about it kind of since then.

Mary Long (14:04)

When we think about these hyper fast fashion retailers, Shein kind of plays in the same space as Taemoo. And now Amazon is breaking into this space as well. They recently launched Amazon Haul. All three of these sites kind of offer the same idea, anything you want for what's effectively pennies or something close to it. Right. Interestingly, like the site wide strategy also seems pretty similar. You bombard people with options, emojis, offerings like all these glittery sparkly things so they can't really process what's going on. Obviously price is something that brings a person to any of these sites. But what if all three of these are kind of Playing the same game and trying to beat each other out in a game of pennies. And there's so much stuff to choose from. Why is one consumer going to one site over another? Do any of these actually have a moat or a differentiator that distinguishes them from the others in the game?

Timothy McLaughlin (15:02)

Yeah, so I think you pointed out something good there or very interesting. With Amazon the halls when I was writing this story, there's certainly people who say, oh, I never use that website or I'm not downloading that app. I stay off it. And I think people don't realize or maybe unaware that even if you're not using Shein or Temu, they've probably changed the way that you're shopping because they are forcing competitors like Amazon to change the way that they're presenting products and bringing them to the market and selling them to consumers. So people could say, oh, I don't use that or this or, or that. It 100% is impacting the way people shop and the way websites work. E commerce, even if you're not using it. Because they have become so successful and they've done so well that they are forcing the traditional big players like Amazon to adapt and change the way that they're, that they're serving customers and also the way that they're dealing with their sellers on their, on their own platforms. So in terms of what's different, there isn't a huge amount of difference at this point. You know, I think we see for many shoppers the disappearance of brand loyalty. You know, that doesn't seem to matter that much anymore. Right. Is the cheapest price, whether it's kind of like from Amazon Basics or from kind of an unbranded Sheen or just a Sheen brand or Temu brand. It doesn't. On certain items, people simply just seem to no longer care if it's from a brand that they've heard of or, you know, a pair of like a pack of white T shirts. Whether it's just kind of the cheapest price point possible. I think that what Amazon is likely going for is familiarity. You know, people obviously in the United States, very, very familiar with it. People certainly younger generation more familiar with, you know, Sheen and Temu, that's obvious. It's growing. But, you know, I think that they are hoping, Amazon certainly hoping that people who are already on the, the website or that are using it for, you know, groceries or, you know, prime deliveries or streaming, that they can then, you know, reel those people in with the same sort of cheap options on clothing and other items. That are, that are available on the, on the other websites already. So yeah, I mean, I think it's an interesting space to watch to see kind of how the competition continues. You know, Shein obviously exploded huge, but also seems to be struggling in terms of we see its valuation that has dropped from around 100 million down to 66, down to 50. I mean billion, not million. And so there's been a, there's been a slide there, you know, there's questions over there listing, you know, when that or if that's gonna, gonna happen. So yeah, I think interesting to watch how the three of them kind of compete in the space going forward.

Mary Long (17:40)

Once upon a time, Shein was eyeing an IPO in the U.S. that idea has kind of died. What happened to that plan?

Timothy McLaughlin (17:48)

Yeah, I mean, so for the past at least I think three years, you know, there has been stories that have been leaked or floated that the IPO is coming really soon. It's right around the corner. You know, now we are definitely in the back half of 2024. We do know that the latest target would be in the UK for a London listing. Yes, the US was certainly originally the intended location. From the reporting that's out there, that didn't happen. I think for a number of reasons. There's just a huge amount of scrutiny on the company in the US and also there is scrutiny from the company in China and from authorities there because the production and their most employment continues to happen there. That gives the Chinese government a, a level of control over, over the company and where it can go. So now for the past year, ish or half year at least, the reporting and the talk has been of the listing in London. Like I said, you know, obviously we're almost into December here and that hasn't happened yet. So I think people are watching that. There has also been floated by people in the kind of financial journalism world that they could always return closer to home and head to Hong Kong. Certainly a city that is looking for big, you know, listings at the moment that's looking for some good financial, you know, economic news. You know, that would kind of be a splashy get for, for, for Hong Kong. It would certainly kind of play into Hong Kong's current plan of trying to integrate itself more with the, with the mainland and with the mainland market. That one is just sort of speculation. London seems to be the spot for now. But yeah, I think a lot of waiting and seeing if and when this thing is going to happen. You know, the company did take on a lot of funding from some big you know, big firms who one would assume at some point would like to see returns on the investment that they made. Some of them as early as almost 10 years ago now. Definitely a lot of eyes watching, kind of where they go for London. You know, some people have asked why there. I think, you know, the stock market there is in pretty bad shape. It would be a big boom for the UK to get a big listing like this. The IPO would probably be very, very large. It would also maybe help the current, the new government of the UK show that they are willing to kind of do business with China and be a little bit more accommodating on the geopolitical front there.

Mary Long (20:11)

We talked about how Shein kind of sits at the intersection of not just the fast fashion world, but also kind of right in the middle of a lot of hot geopolitical issues. One of those issues that I didn't fully realize until reading your story is about this loophole in import taxes and import duties that Shein gets to pay. So maybe you can walk us through this a bit. What is the de minimis clause and how is that relevant to the Sheen story?

Timothy McLaughlin (20:38)

Yes, I should have mentioned de minimis earlier. It is a piece of legislation or law rather in the United States that I think very few people really paid attention to except sort of trade walks and maybe some people in the freight, import, export business until very recently because of the connections to China. What it allows for is for packages, small packages to come into the United States if they're value is below $800 is the threshold right now. They are subject to very little inspection entering the United States and they are free from paying taxes and tariffs on those packages. So with a website like Shein, where many of the items, as you said earlier, cost a few cents or a couple of dollars, you can obviously order a lot of stuff and the company can ship it into the United States with very limited oversight and also avoiding paying, you know, taxes and tariffs on the, on the items that are, that are coming in. Critics call it, you know, a loophole. It was much lower until the Obama administration. It was part of a larger trade package that went through, you know, Congress was signed into law by Barack Obama. That raised the threshold. It used to be $200. It raised it up to 800. The feeling at the time was that the countries on the U.S. border, Mexico and Canada, would also do this. It would facilitate kind of easier trade and would also allow Americans to travel abroad and bring back gifts and things like that without declaring them and going through paperwork. I should also say there was a huge amount of lobbying to get the number raised to 800 and even higher in some cases by shipping companies like FedEx, who obviously benefit from the increased volume of packages that would be moving between, you know, into the United States. It sat at $800 for a long time. I don't think a lot of people really, like I said, I think, you know, I think, you know, trade wonks and some other people were kind of interested in it. It became a massive issue really, kind of during the pandemic when people were at home shopping online a lot. And we see this just huge uptick in packages that are coming into the United States using the de minimis law. And so they're coming in this year, probably over a billion packages entering the United States. And that caught the attention of a lot of lawmakers. Again, given the tensions and the situation with China, asking are these companies kind of paying their fair share? I think that bit of it has been going on for a while now. There's been a lot of legislation that's been introduced. Not a lot of it really moved for various reasons. There are big business groups, again, express shippers, who would like to see this stay. Now, I think what happened and why we're all of a sudden seeing a lot more movement on it. We saw the White House address it yesterday, the US Economic securities on China. The commission talked about it as well. I think what has happened is lawmakers and people who are critics of this have started linking it to the fentanyl trade and saying that, hey, this is how fentanyl is getting into the United States from China. You know, they're bringing in either either the product itself or the chemicals to make it is coming in through this means. When you link it to that and then you start having victims, families come and testify and talk to Congress and stuff. Now suddenly there's a huge amount of interest in kind of what is this and how can we change it. So I think for the past couple years, it's been sitting there. There's been a lot of talk about it. It's gotten a lot of attention. It hasn't really moved. Now all of a sudden, I think we're going to start seeing some changes because of, again, the geopolitical climate and linking this to something that's like, very serious. And by the way, this is by no means saying that temu xin that any one of these companies are involved in any way in the drug trade. I'm just saying that this is, I think, how lawmakers who are against this. And critics of it have found a much more sort of emotional and emotive way to lobby on changing it. And that's gotten a lot more attention. And so I think that we will see. You know, we already saw Biden announce some changes to it. You know, who knows with the Trump administration how that will go, but certainly seems to be a ton of, you know, cross party support for doing something to change this. That would be a big blow for Sheen and Temu, although they're already sort of pivoting. I would point people, if they haven't read it, to the rest of the world. Story that came out, I think this week or last week about using family warehouses, which are essentially houses of Chinese immigrants living in the United States and kind of housing the packages there before they go out to shipment. You know, the other issue here is that a lot of companies are shipping the products from China to Mexico or Canada where they break the packages up into smaller pieces, then bring them into the United States. We see again lawmakers calling for some regulation on that on other sides of the border. So certainly an issue that I don't think is going away again because it's being linked to fentanyl and the drug trade with China. I think it's going to see some changes coming up at some point.

Mary Long (25:37)

Yeah, you've got this, this newer emotional side to it being brought up. But also in June 2023, just to put some numbers behind it. And you cite these numbers in your reporting, the House Select Committee on the CCP found that in 2022, Gap paid $700 million in import duties, H&M paid $205 million, Sheehan and Tae Mu paid nothing. So we've already heard. You know, you mentioned I don't know what the Trump administration is going to do. We've heard a lot about tariffs recently. I can imagine that certainly being a sticking point moving forward. McLaughlin, thanks so much for the time. Thanks so much for your reporting on this company, though I'm sure parts of it were frustrating because it is indeed so mysterious. But thanks for coming on and spending some time with us on Motley Fool Money. Really appreciate having you here.

Timothy McLaughlin (26:21)

Yeah, thanks so much. I appreciate it.

Ricky Mulvey (26:28)

We've got a link to Tim's story in the show notes if you want to check it out. As always, people on the program may have interests in stocks they talk about, and the Motley fool may have formal recommendations for or against. So don't buy or sell stocks based solely on what you hear. All personal finance content follows Motley fool editorial standards and are not approved by advertisers. The Motley fool only picks products that I would personally recommend to friends like you. I'm Ricky Mulvey. Thanks for listening. We'll be back tomorrow.