Fools Duel Over DocuSign: Is It Still a Breaker?

Summary

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Motley Fool Money – Episode Summary

Title: Fools Duel Over DocuSign: Is It Still a Breaker?
Host: Tim Byers (Lead Advisor, Motley Fool Rule Breakers)
Guest: Rick Munarriz (Motley Fool Analyst, 20-year teammate)
Date: September 15, 2025

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Episode Overview

This lively episode centers on a head-to-head debate over DocuSign’s (DOCU) prospects as a long-term investment. Host Tim Byers and analyst Rick Munarriz present both the bullish and bearish investing theses for DocuSign, encouraging listeners to weigh in. The conversation then expands to macroeconomic conditions, personal investing strategy, and a special “Faker or Breaker” lightning round featuring recent hot stocks.

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Key Segments & Insights

1. The DocuSign Duel: Bull vs. Bear

[00:33–05:09]

Rick’s Bull Case for DocuSign ([01:06])

• Digital signatures as a transformative technology: "There's no denying that digital signatures are a game changer. The road to better mousetraps is paved with ideas that save time and provide convenience."
• Pandemic acceleration, but with lasting strength: DocuSign saw explosive revenue growth during COVID (up 49% then 45% year-over-year). Growth slowed but didn’t stall, recently re-accelerating (latest quarter: revenue up 9%, billings up 13%).
• “Not a fallen star”: Stock is 75% below all-time highs, but revenue and profitability are at record levels – “DocuSign was losing money when its stock peaked in 2021. It has never been as profitable on an adjusted basis as it is right now. Margins, including gross margin, have never been higher.”
• Massive adoption and sticky customers: Over 1 billion users, 1.7 million paying accounts worldwide.
• Reasonable value: Trades at 20x forward earnings, compared to pandemic bubble valuations.
• Healthy competition but strong positioning: Noted competition from Adobe Sign and Dropbox Sign, but "the platform's popularity has never been higher."
• Signature line: "With DocuSign trading at a reasonable 20 times forward earnings and business potentially picking up right now, do you really think it can fail? I ink not." – Rick ([02:40])

Tim’s Bear Case for DocuSign ([02:49])

• Single-product risk: "DocuSign may be trying to learn some new tricks, but for now it is still a one trick pony. And I think that's objectively true." ([02:52])
• Short contract cycles: 62% of customer contracts are ≤1 year, making revenue base less sticky and more exposed to churn.
• Lack of deep long-term commitment: “What’s the reason to pay up for a long-term relationship with DocuSign? I mean, we get it—DocuSign did change the world. But I don't know if this is one where we absolutely got to have it all the time…” ([03:14])
• Capital allocation worries: Almost all free cash flow is being used on buybacks, rather than reinvesting in innovation. "If the opportunity for DocuSign is so massive, then why isn't excess capital being funneled back into the business?" ([03:54])
• Implied management doubt: “Unless of course, management doesn’t believe reinvesting back into the business will produce innovations that drive growth.” ([04:10])

→ Listeners are invited to vote: Bull or Bear – is DocuSign a “rule breaker” or not?

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2. Big Macro: Navigating a Challenging Economy

[05:34–11:43]

Macro Backdrop ([05:34])

• Jobs revision: U.S. job creation over the last 12 months revised down by 911,000 jobs; echoes “not a crisis, but a concern.”
• Long-term vs. short-term moves: Rick shares his approach is to “fine-tune, not overhaul,” unless there’s a major life event.
  • Cites his own family changes (retirement, grandchild on the way, special needs son) as reasons for calibration, not market swings.
  • Notable quote: “Good investors go to where the puck is going. But great investors go to where the puck is going after that.” – Rick ([07:25])

Concerns Beyond Jobs ([08:36])

• Inflation: Core CPI up 3.1% year-over-year, but tariffs to come may make things worse.
• Consumer sentiment: Notably down; University of Michigan consumer sentiment index down 21% YoY.
  • “That concerns me especially since I know you and I like tech stocks, but I really love like consumer-facing retail stocks too.” – Rick ([09:03])

Defensive/Resilient Sectors ([10:41])

• Premium/luxury spending: Viking Cruises cited as a resilient company—retirees with discretionary income keep spending even in downturns.
• Low-cost retailers and defensive stocks: Rick mentions Five Below, Roku ("thrived during downturns," free/ad-supported model), and Costco (“Still got the hot dog deal—$1.50 for the hot dog and soda. You can’t beat that.” ([11:26]))
• Takeaway: Smart investors look for quality, resilience, and either end of the value spectrum—premium and bargain plays.

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3. Faker or Breaker: Stock Lightning Round

[12:27–21:38]

Overview

• Explains Motley Fool’s “Rule Breaker” criteria, as set out by David Gardner.
• Defines a "faker" as a high-growth stock whose pace is unsustainable and destined to fizzle.

Three Stocks Examined:

1. Astera Labs (ALAB) – Semiconductor Connectivity Co. ([13:50])

   • Rick’s verdict: Breaker
     • Rapid adoption: “Basically a five bagger over the past year…They’re the great pick-and-shovels play for AI and cloud computing infrastructure.”
     • The valuation is high—but “some of the best stocks you may ever buy start off as overvalued. So to me it is a breaker.” ([15:18])

2. Opendoor Technologies (OPEN) – Digital Real Estate/iBuying ([15:40])

   • Rick’s verdict: faker (“lowercase f”)
     • Market is tough; competitors like Zillow and Redfin already pulled out after heavy losses.
     • Opendoor’s stock is up 9x since end of 2022, but revenue today is only a third its 2022 level.
     • “The only reason I’m going with a lowercase faker…is because other big companies aren’t coming back into iBuying. But…I do think that [the stock is] a little inflated for the reality right now in what’s a very cutthroat market in the long run.” ([18:06])

3. Reddit (RDDT) – Community Platform ([19:50])

   • Rick’s verdict: Breaker
     • “It’s a community of communities…the company revenue up 62%. So basically more than tripled in its first year [as a public company].”
     • Notes initial skepticism about monetization and user revolt risk—users did push back, but revenue growth “accelerating again in 2025.”
     • “We underestimated, you know, how high the floor could actually be. So I think, yeah, I think Reddit’s a breaker.” ([21:03])

Special aside: Tim admits passing on Reddit as a Rule Breaker at a $5.5b valuation—now it’s $48b.

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• Rick (Bull case): "It may have bottomed out at an 8% top line growth rate last year and revenue is up 9% so far in its latest quarter. Billings up an even better 13%. So business is actually starting to pick up, not go the other way." ([01:32])
• Tim (Bear case): "DocuSign may be trying to learn some new tricks, but for now it is still a one trick pony." ([02:52])
• Rick (On investing style): "Good investors go to where the puck is going. But great investors go to where the puck is going after that." ([07:25])
• Tim (On Costco): "Still got the hot dog deal. Still $1.50 for the hot dog and soda. You can't beat that." ([11:26])
• Rick (On Reddit): “I keep toothpicks around to pick the crow out of my teeth. We all have to eat it as growth investors. We're not going to be right all the time.” ([20:32])

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• [00:33] – Episode kickoff; debate format for DocuSign
• [01:06] – Rick’s Bull Case for DocuSign
• [02:49] – Tim’s Bear Case for DocuSign
• [05:34] – Macro segment: Jobs data and personal investing adjustments
• [08:36] – Inflation and consumer sentiment discussion
• [10:41] – Defensive and resilient sectors identified
• [12:27] – Explanation of "Faker or Breaker"
• [13:50] – Astera Labs: Faker or Breaker?
• [15:40] – Opendoor Technologies: Faker or Breaker?
• [19:50] – Reddit: Faker or Breaker?

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Closing Reminders

• Listeners are encouraged to vote and comment: Is DocuSign a “rule breaker” or has it become a “faker”?
• Motley Fool members will have access to an upcoming interview with DocuSign’s CEO on Fool24.
• David Gardner’s new book on Rule Breaker Investing is out soon.

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Tone:
Friendly, witty, banter-filled yet grounded in long-term, fundamentals-based stock analysis.

Audience:
Investors curious about growth stocks, market resilience, and long-term equity investing.

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Transcript

[A]

Foreign, you decide. Two fools make the case for and against DocuSign. You're listening to Motley Fool Money. Hello, I'm Tim Byers, lead advisor of Motley Fool Rule breakers, and here with me is my teammate of 20 years on that service, Rick Dinarest. Rick, how are you this morning?

[B]

I'm doing great.

[A]

Excellent, excellent. We're going to talk some breakers today. Are you ready to duel over whether DocuSign stock ticker docu will be a market beater over the next five years?

[B]

I was born to fight, so I'm ready.

[A]

Tim, I know you were born to fight. I've known you for a lot of years. Rick, give us the bull case here quickly. So we'll do two minute bull, two minute bear, and then we're going to get you fools to vote in the comments to this show. But Rick, go ahead. Two minutes. What's your bull case?

[B]

All right. There's no denying that digital signatures are a game changer. The road to better mousetraps is paved with ideas that save time and provide convenience. Business was already accelerating for DocuSign heading into the pandemic. But everything changed when the COVID 19 crisis made old school ink signatures not just inconvenient, but potentially unsafe. Revenue picked it up a notch, rising 49% and then 45% in the first two fiscal years of that shelter in place era. Like many pandemic plays, business slowed for DocuSign after that. But and this matters, unlike many pandemic plays where revenue growth disappeared, that hasn't happened here. It may have bottomed out at an 8% top line growth rate last year and revenue is up 9% so far in its latest quarter. Buildings up an even better 13%. So business is actually starting to pick up, not go the other way. Maybe you thought that DocuSign was one of those companies that just fell out of the investing radar and the stock chart? Well, yeah, it makes it look that way. The Stock is trading 75% below its all time high set four summers ago. But it's not. Revenue has obviously never been higher than it is right now. DocuSign was losing money when a stock peaked in 2021. It has never been as profitable on an adjusted basis as it is right now. Margins, including gross margin have never been higher. The platform's popularity has never been higher, which with more than a billion users worldwide and a record 1.7 million paying accounts, there are competitors. Adobe Acrobat Sign and Dropbox Sign. Dropbox Sign, sorry, are smart rivals with healthy resources. It's a Sign of the time, so to speak. However, with Docusign trading at a reasonable 20 times forward earnings and business potentially picking up right now, do you really think it can fail? I ink not.

[A]

Very nice. Yes. Well, let me give you the bear argument, Rick.

[B]

Please.

[A]

I like it.

[B]

Here's growl my way. Growl my way.

[A]

Yeah. Well, here's a couple of thoughts here. Docusign may be trying to learn some new tricks, but for now it is still a one trick pony. And I, I think that's Objectively true. Roughly 62% of customer contracts are for less than or equal to one year. So a lot of this revenue is very short term and that puts this on, you know, somewhat shaky ground. Now, to be fair, it's been like this for a while. E signatures do matter though. And you know, the world has largely agreed though that Docusign is who we need to execute our agreements. What's the reason to pay up for a long term relationship with Docusign? I mean, we get it, the Docusign did change the world. But I don't know if this is one where we absolutely got to have it all the time such that we're signing a multi year agreement. But it's not just that. That troubles me a little bit here, Rick. It is true that DocuSign is back to generating cash flow from the business, but virtually all of that capital is flowing into buybacks. And I don't really get that, Rick. If the opportunity for DocuSign is so massive, then why isn't excess capital being funneled back into the business? I mean, surely that is the best use of capital. Unless of course, management doesn't believe reinvesting back into the business will produce innovations that that drive growth. So you have two points of view there and we do this all the time, fools. It's an exercise to know both the bull case and the bear case. Please vote. Tell us what you agreed with most. Did you like Rick's bull case or did you like my bear case? Let us know in the comments to this podcast. We really appreciate that. And a quick business reminder before we move on to our next segment that Andy Cross and Emily Flippen will be interviewing DocuSign CEO Alan Teigason on Fool24. And that comes with your premium membership to the Motley Fool. So if you are a member, you get to see the CEO of DocuSign interviewed by Andy and Emily. Up next, who's afraid of the big macro?

[C]

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[A]

Learn [e-mail] all right, we are back, Rick. We're going to start with the big macro here and some poor jobs data. Here's how Reuters put it. Last week, the U.S. economy likely created 911,000 fewer jobs in the 12 months through March than previously estimated. That seems not very good. The government said on Tuesday, suggesting that job growth was already stalling before President Donald Trump's aggressive tariffs on imports. So we've seen dire economic reports before, Rick, the housing crisis, the credit freeze tied to the Great Recession. This doesn't feel like much of a crisis, but it may be a worry. So here's my question for you, Rick. Are you changing anything in your stock selection process to account for fewer people with excess cash to burn?

[B]

Yeah, I don't like that, obviously, and it's a concern. But as a long term investor, I tend to fine tune my portfolio over even dramatic changes rather than make wholesale changes. Lifestyle changes is the only thing that will make me allocate my money differently. When our second son was born and he was a special needs son, I'm saying, well, hey, we're not going to have the basic empty nest trajectory. So I invested a little different. When my wife retired, was able to retire early two years ago, we said, okay, well now we're going to have to be, you know, a little more, you know, conservative, at least with some part of our portfolio. And obviously, as you now know, Tim, I'm going to be a grandfather now. So moving to the third generation of menars here in, in January, it's kind of different like, because, hey, they're up in New York, we're in Florida. I may be doing a lot of trap more traveling than I thought I would be doing, possibly even, you know, maybe considering some kind of real estate to bounce around Florida and New York rather than just stay in Florida and mid Florida like I do my whole life. So these things will make me be a little more conservative in my investing. But for the most part, I don't think that you can just say, hey, this is a trend that's happening. I'm going to just follow everyone into that trend. Especially if you had high convictions in the stock. You have to me what I've always believed is good investors they go to where the puck is going. But great investors go to where the puck is going after that. And I see a lot of like great trends. You're thinking, well, hey, interest rates are going to be moving lower potential in the few months. Uh, it's gotta be a great time for housing. Well, Wayfair has already more than doubled. So you have these easy, obvious plays. They're already moving, but I don't respond that way. Um, obviously I, I like the companies I like. I will add to them in good times and I will continue to add to them in bad times.

[A]

Yeah, I mean, get that 529 for the grandkid going, Rick. I mean, let's, let's see. You know, that's, that's the, that's, that's the thing to pay attention to. But more broadly, let's come back to the big macro here. You've been a full investor for over 30 years. I've been a full investor for as long. What about the macro stands out to you? Based on what we're seeing, the job losses are one thing, but is there anything else that stands out to you?

[B]

Yeah. So to me, I mean, obviously the consumer price index that we also got last week, it's up 2.9% over the past year. CPI is up, core CPI, sorry, is up 3.1%. This isn't great, but it's not problematic. However, the full impact of tariffs hasn't really been baked into those numbers. But again, you mentioned the employment issue and I'm telling myself, is the optimist in me seeing this that hey, it's because companies are more efficient now and all these things, or is there really just an actual economic crisis happening at this time? The consumer sentiment, that's one that I do worry about. So Friday we got the consumer sentiment out of University of Michigan and it declined again. It's now 21% lower than it was a year ago. So that concerns me especially since I know you and I like tech stocks, but I really love like consumer facing retail stocks too.

[A]

Absolutely.

[B]

And that's one industry that I'm scared about right now because if consumers are afraid, they're not going to be spending as much. And I think that's one thing. Again, I wasn't going to make a wholesale change in my portfolio, but if I see that trend continuing, then maybe I may have to pair back there and put my money in other growth markets. But yeah, I'm watching and I'm hoping for the best. I think every investor should be optimistic, but always watch Your back?

[A]

Yeah, I mean, that's good advice. Always watch your back. You mentioned other growth areas and so I want to explore that just briefly, if there are other growth areas that you think maybe have a little bit of resilience, what might those be? I'll tee you up with one that you and I have talked about a lot. And maybe this will give you some, some room to expand. Viking, the cruise line, that's one that seems to have endured through every economy. We're talking about people who are in our age cohort, Rick, you know, like 50 plus excess income. They're going out, they're spending on these luxurious river cruises. And honestly that's in every economy that has been really difficult to disrupt. Are there others like that that you think are just like high quality, really resilient?

[B]

Yeah, you have obviously the high end market, as you point out. That's why Viking has that advantage. It's mostly retirees who already have everything mapped out so they can afford to make these. You know, these aren't your cheap, you know, regular cruises you have on the mega boats. These are very, you pay a premium for that. But you also have sort of the other end of the spectrum, I think, like, you know, you know, the five belows of the world. A Roku, which is a company that thrived during the last economic downturn because people were just, hey, we're at home, we don't want to spend money. And while, yeah, that's very ad dependent, it is still a free platform to watch, a free platform to get on. They have a free ad supported channel and companies like that can get through this. And obviously companies not in the rule breakers core cup, but Costco is obviously a retail facing name that should thrive.

[A]

Well, still got the hot dog. Still got the hot dog deal.

[B]

Still $1.50 for the hot dog and soda. So you can't beat that. So yeah, they're doing a lot of things right and able to keep those costs down. But yeah, I think there's some good tech plays too that you can play in this where it'll work out. But to me, yeah, there's always an opportunity, no matter how, you know, Stormy, it may be outside.

[A]

Yeah. All right, up next, faker or breaker? We take a look at three different stocks and tell you whether or not we think they are a genuine rule breaker or whether or not they are a faker.

[D]

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[E]

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[A]

All right, Rick, we're back. And this is something that I hope our members and our listeners really like because this is a little bit of insight and into how we select rule breakers. You know this game really, really well because it's we do this every time we pick a stock for Motley Fool Rule breakers. We have to decide whether or not a business is a breaker, meaning that it checks off most or even all of the six traits of a rule breaker that David Gardner has identified and has been using to pick stocks for well over 20 years now. And by the way, quick plug on this. Please make sure you pay attention this week to the release of David's new book on rule breaker investing. You're going to want to get that if you haven't yet reserved your copy. But Rick, let's talk about this. Let's talk about breakers or fakers and the definition of a faker. For those who don't know what this is. It's a stock that is growing really fast and it looks like it may have breaker characteristics. It's just on a rocket ship and it's grown really fast and it's got a lot of interesting things about it and the market tends to like it but the growth is due to fizzle out. It's just not going to be able to keep this up. So that's when we see fakers. So Rick, let's talk about three stocks. Here's what I want to know for you from you. These have been high performers over the last 18 months. Faker or breaker? Astera Labs Ticker A L A B. And I'm going to give a quick description of this. This is a semiconductor company that designs and manufactures connectivity. These are chips for connectivity and it's been really important for like AI and machine learning. They've gotten a lot of love because of this because there's a real belief they're going to be part of the a revolution. This is founded in 2017, about 440 employees. This is according to Microsoft Copilot, about 38.3 billion in market cap Brick. So what do you think? Astera faker or breaker?

[B]

I'm gonna go with a breaker and I want to explain why. To me it's, I see a stock that Astera has is basically a five bagger over the past year and normally you're going to be hesitant. You and I know better not buying into a stock because it's a five bagger. It's a lot like selling. I'm not going to sell the stock I own that's down 80% because it can't get worse. We know things can get better for good companies, things can get worse for bad companies. Astera Labs, they're at that great pick and shovels play for connectivity, for AI and for cloud computing infrastructure. Not only that, it's in the numbers. It's not just you can just hit all the right buzzwords and still fail. But this is a company that is growing and it continues to put out, beat and raise performances quarter after quarter. Lately everything's picking up. I think the upticks are earned. Yes, it is overvalued. But you know what? Some of the best stocks you may ever buy start off as overvalued. So to me it is a breaker.

[A]

Yeah, we, we have heard the overvalued argument many times before. All right, moving on. Number two, Open Door Technologies. Ticker op E N. This is a digital real estate company. Specifically, it's one of the early pioneers in what was called iBuying. They buy up a bunch of property, then they have a digital real estate agency and they do a lot of the selling through their own digital platform here. So they carry a lot of inventory on their balance sheet here. Rick, it's an interesting company. It has been around since 2014. Headquarters in San Francisco, about 1,470 employees as of last year, again according to Copilot. And it went public as a spac. For those who don't remember this, the SPAC craze from a few years ago, which is a special purpose acquisition company had a bunch of money, it goes public and that big bucket of money acquires a private company and by default takes it public. So Rick, opendoor with its iBuying platform, Faker. Breaker.

[B]

Yeah, I'm going faker, but again I want to, I'm going with a lowercase F in this fake. Okay, because, okay, I don't want to completely dismiss it, but let's, let's talk about the whole I buying market. To me, I was never a fan when Zillow and Redfin got it followed Opendoor into This market several years ago. Thankfully, they both backed out, took their hits. It seemed like a way to grow revenue, but with negative margins, it wasn't going to help out the overall business. I'm glad they're out of it. Opendoor is still sort of struggling with the profitability of it, but they're. Now that they're in the market and now that we're. Yeah. And so the stock, let's talk about the stock. This is one of this year's hottest stocks. And normally you think, well, Ester has also been a very hot stock over the past year. But in this case, this is a business that is not where it was. It's not necessarily growing. The stock is 9x since the end of 2022, but its revenue is a third of what it was in 2022. People are obviously looking ahead, saying, hey, real estate market, all this is going to happen. The only reason I'm going with a lowercase faker instead of just saying uppercase faker is because after what Zillow and Redfin went into, they're not going to dive back into this market. So, open door, as far as the big publicly traded companies, there are a lot of people doing the ibuying thing. You may even have a cousin or an uncle or you yourself flip homes. There's going to be a lot of people in it. The big companies that sort of just stormed into this market are not going to do it because investors are going to say, oh, you burned with us. You burned us here before. So I think it has that advantage right now and has a scalability advantage that it has over individuals and smaller players in here. So I'm sort of optimistic that maybe it'll get it right this time. But I'm definitely not following it right now. You know, obviously it's a meme stock. Not every meme stock has to go south. But I do think that that may be a little inflated for the reality right now in what's very a cutthroat market in the long run. So faker, but lowercase faker.

[A]

All right, look out Chip and Joanna Gaines. You know, we'll see. All right, last one. And I'm gonna have to eat some crow on this 1. Reddit Ticker Rd DT this is a community. It's a community platform. I think it's wrong to call it a social media platform. It's driven by user generated content. I think it's closer to YouTube than it is to say, like Twitter. It's just like YouTube with text. You know, lots of Threads, subreddits. So it, I mean, Rick, this one has been Extraordinary. Founded in 2005 by Steve Huffman and Alexis Ohanian. That, that would be Mr. Serena Williams to the rest of us. Founded in San Francisco employees 2,233 March 2024 IPO. And honestly, Rick, I mean, this market cap now is 48.2 billion. Quarter revenue up 68%. Ad revenue up 56%. And here's the thing where I have to eat crow. I always ask our team to write, you know, reports like two pagers for things we want to consider for rule breakers. So this is like, I don't know, a year ago, Rick, I asked you to write a two pager on Reddit. And at the time, this is true, fools, because I went back and looked at it, Rick, it had a market cap of 5.5 billion at the time that you wrote that report. And I chose not to put it in rule breakers. So yeah, that happened. Rick. Breaker or faker?

[B]

Yeah, I'm going with Breaker, obviously. And there's no shame. I keep toothpicks around to pick the crow out of my teeth. We all have to eat it as growth investors. We're not going to be right all the time with Reddit again. Yeah, it's a community of communities and they do so many things right. And I think when they went public again, revenue was up just 21%. You were talking about that latest growth rate, 21% in 20 for all 2023, right before it went public. So it was easy to wonder and they were like, oh, we can monetize our platform. And you're thinking, well, the users revolt because this is the kind of system where it's, they are the leaders. It's not the company running it, it's the community that's really running each of these tiny tens of thousands, hundreds of thousands different individual communities would they revolt? And they sort of did, but they accepted it. And the company revenue up 62%. So basically more than tripled in its first the year went public and accelerating again in 2025. And again it's a very dynamic source. And while I know stuff like the Google algorithm has sort of like messed up a lot of companies and how it still never fails. Like if you ask any question, odds are that Reddit's going to be bubbling up near the top because it's, it's vetted by a community. It's, it's kind of perfect community situation, platform. Yeah, it's a great company. I don't know the ceiling on Reddit, but I know we underestimated, you know, how high the floor could actually be. So I think, yeah, I think Reddit's a breaker.

[A]

Yeah. A couple of quick reminders as we close out here. So again, please let us know DocuSign, do you think breaker or faker? Did you like the bull argument, Rick's bull argument, or did you like my bear argument? Let us know what you think about DocuSign. We want to hear your comments to this episode. And also, just as a reminder, if you are a Motley fool member and it's very easy to sign up for Motley Fool, Stock Advisor or any number of services that we offer, Andy Cross and Emily Flippin will this week be interviewing DocuSign CEO Alan Teigason for Fool24. That is part of your membership at any tier and you can go to the site and get access to that interview. So look for that. And please do give a quick a quick look at your local bookstore for Rule Breaker Investing from our co founder and chief rule breaker David Gardner. That's going to be an outstanding read. I've seen the book. I I can, I can vouch for it. We're going to end it there. As always, people on the program may have interest in the stocks they talk about and the mle fool may have formal recommendations for or against. So don't buy or sell stocks based solely on what you all personal finance content follows Motley fool editorial standards and is not approved by advertisers. Advertisements are sponsored content and provided for informational purposes only. To see our full advertising disclosure, please check out our show notes Rick thanks for joining me, Fools. Thanks for listening. For Rick Benarez and our engineer Dan Boyd, I'm Tim Byers. We'll see you again soon, Fools. Full on, everyone.