Motley Fool Money — “Irresistible Change: How to Spot Real Growth”
Date: March 22, 2026
Host: Rich Lamello (Motley Fool)
Guest: Phil Gilbert (Former IBM GM of Design, author of Irresistible Change)
Episode Overview
This episode features an in-depth conversation with Phil Gilbert, renowned for leading culture transformation at IBM and author of Irresistible Change: A Blueprint for Earning Buy-in and Breakout Success. The discussion centers on how investors can spot authentic organizational transformation, differentiate between substantive change and CEO “bluster,” and focus on the culture, metrics, and incentives that actually drive shareholder value. Insights are especially relevant in today’s landscape of AI adoption and rapid business evolution.
Key Discussion Points & Insights
Why Most Change Initiatives Struggle
- CEO Bluster vs. Real Change
- Phil Gilbert explains that visible CEO mandates and bluster often signal doomed change efforts because employees aren’t given agency or real buy-in.
- “When you hear a lot of bluster from the CEO and there's mandates involved, those are two leading indicators that the rank and file probably are not going to be given a chance to become bought in.” — Phil Gilbert (00:04)
- Phil Gilbert explains that visible CEO mandates and bluster often signal doomed change efforts because employees aren’t given agency or real buy-in.
- Investor Perspective:
- Look for companies quietly making changes rather than making grand statements on earnings calls.
- “I tend to look for organizations that are quietly changing and where the CEO is not out over his or her skis in building it up…” — Phil Gilbert (02:54)
- Look for companies quietly making changes rather than making grand statements on earnings calls.
Cultural Signals: Compliance vs. Engagement
- Mandates as Red Flags
- Discusses “return to office” mandates post-pandemic as classic examples of compliance theater versus true cultural change.
- “If you've got to mandate somebody to be back in your office, you're probably doing something wrong…. In those early days of return to office... you saw and you felt all of the resistance from the employees against the way it was being done.” — Phil Gilbert (03:47)
- Discusses “return to office” mandates post-pandemic as classic examples of compliance theater versus true cultural change.
- Compliance Theater Consequences
- Examples of employees gaming badge systems; resistance and superficial compliance rather than genuine cultural alignment.
Metrics That Matter: Measuring Real Adoption
- Which KPIs Signal Real Change?
- Employee engagement scores and customer feedback like NPS (Net Promoter Score) are useful leading indicators, though not always disclosed publicly.
- “Most organizations... have employee engagement scores. Most of them are keeping track of... net promoter score. These are the kinds of metrics that are kind of leading indicators to where the culture truly is.” — Phil Gilbert (05:10)
- Employee engagement scores and customer feedback like NPS (Net Promoter Score) are useful leading indicators, though not always disclosed publicly.
- The 25% “Tipping Point” Rule
- Drawing from organizational theory and his IBM experience, Phil describes that when 25% of a division adopts a change, it reaches a tipping point and accelerates adoption across the rest.
- “He said at one point, he said, ‘Phil, you know, the good news is in order for any culture to adopt something, you only need to get 25% of the people. That's the tipping point.’ …we actually adopted a tactic where... we intentionally targeted, in a sense, the easiest 25% to get. And that became a very useful tactic for us to help us scale out the change.” — Phil Gilbert (06:01-08:47)
- Drawing from organizational theory and his IBM experience, Phil describes that when 25% of a division adopts a change, it reaches a tipping point and accelerates adoption across the rest.
Entrepreneurial Versus Corporate Mindset
- Value Creation Over Cost Cutting
- Contrasts entrepreneurial and big-company attitudes: entrepreneurs look to create value, while big firms often focus on cost reductions.
- “The main thing is this notion of never being settled with the status quo and the possibilities of value creation are so much more interesting than the possibilities of cost reduction.” — Phil Gilbert (09:49)
- “…laying people off because of AI... what you're essentially saying is, ‘I'm perfectly happy with today's outcomes, I can now get them cheaper.’ That is not an entrepreneurial mindset.” — Phil Gilbert (10:36)
- Contrasts entrepreneurial and big-company attitudes: entrepreneurs look to create value, while big firms often focus on cost reductions.
When Transformation Goes Wrong
- Destructive Change?
- Real transformation, when done right, should not destroy value. “Creative destruction” is only worthwhile if it leads to demonstrably better outcomes—greater differentiation, higher margins, more customer share.
- “…if you don't come out with something demonstrably better at the end... that's just business as usual.” — Phil Gilbert (11:39-12:20)
- Real transformation, when done right, should not destroy value. “Creative destruction” is only worthwhile if it leads to demonstrably better outcomes—greater differentiation, higher margins, more customer share.
AI Adoption: Metrics to Watch
- Vanity Metrics vs. Real Outcomes
- Warns against companies touting “vanity metrics” like percentage of code written by AI; urges investors to focus on meaningful metrics tied to business outcomes.
- “If they're talking about individual productivity metrics, they're probably not measuring the right thing… The question is, are your products any better?” — Phil Gilbert (12:43)
- “If people are still touting vanity metrics... I can guarantee you those are not companies that get it right.” — Phil Gilbert (13:55)
- Warns against companies touting “vanity metrics” like percentage of code written by AI; urges investors to focus on meaningful metrics tied to business outcomes.
- Innovative Approaches: Revenue per Token
- Suggests investors watch for companies tracking “revenue per token” (cost–benefit analysis of AI tools) as a sign of thoughtful, sustainable AI integration.
- “It seems to me... we ought to be looking at revenue per token numbers in the same way that we look at revenue per headcount.” — Phil Gilbert (14:15)
- Suggests investors watch for companies tracking “revenue per token” (cost–benefit analysis of AI tools) as a sign of thoughtful, sustainable AI integration.
Long-Term Value Creation: Investor Takeaways
- Traits of Companies Driving True Change
- Seek out those with rising employee engagement, real commitment from leadership, and improving retention—these are often the hallmarks of durable transformation.
- “…finding companies that are approaching transformation in a way that is real and not just theater is key.” — Phil Gilbert (16:45)
- “Where employee engagement is rising, where people are excited to go to work and stay at work... that's a pretty good indicator.” — Phil Gilbert (17:31)
- Seek out those with rising employee engagement, real commitment from leadership, and improving retention—these are often the hallmarks of durable transformation.
- Patience Pays
- Investors often have time (several quarters or years) to observe whether transformation is taking hold, since Wall Street is highly reactive.
- “This is one area where you have a few quarters, if not a few years, to take a look and see how it's taking hold.” — Phil Gilbert (17:45)
- Investors often have time (several quarters or years) to observe whether transformation is taking hold, since Wall Street is highly reactive.
Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments
- On CEO Bluster:
“I tend to look for organizations that are quietly changing and where the CEO is not out over his or her skis in building it up...” — Phil Gilbert (02:54) - On Agency & Engagement:
“If you've got to mandate somebody to be back in your office, you're probably doing something wrong.” — Phil Gilbert (03:47) - On Entrepreneurial Mindset:
“The possibilities of value creation are so much more interesting than the possibilities of cost reduction.” — Phil Gilbert (09:49) - On AI Metrics:
“If they're talking about individual productivity metrics, they're probably not measuring the right thing... The companies that are really seriously thinking about how they're evaluating the value of AI in the context of their business outcomes are the companies who are at least trying to really get it right.” — Phil Gilbert (12:43) - On Lasting Change:
“…if you find a company that is truly undergoing a transformation… you will see a benefit.” — Phil Gilbert (17:57)
Timestamps for Important Segments
- 00:04 — The danger signs of CEO mandates and lack of employee agency
- 01:44 — Phil Gilbert’s career and background at IBM
- 02:54 — How to spot failed/phony change initiatives as an investor
- 03:47 — Return-to-office mandates and compliance theater
- 05:10 — Metrics: Employee engagement and NPS as leading indicators
- 06:01 — The 25% tipping point in organizational adoption
- 09:49 — What big-company CEOs can learn from entrepreneurs
- 10:36 — Why laying people off for AI isn’t true transformation
- 11:39 — Can transformation destroy value?
- 12:43 — AI adoption: beware of vanity metrics, focus on outcomes
- 14:15 — The idea of “revenue per token” and AI core metrics
- 16:45 — How investors should spot real long-term change
Summary: What Investors Should Look For
- Watch for companies making authentic, culture-driven changes rather than grand CEO pronouncements.
- Focus on leading indicator metrics: rising employee engagement, customer satisfaction, and personnel retention.
- Be skeptical of transformation stories built around superficial or “vanity” measures—especially with AI.
- The real edge comes from patience and willingness to “read between the lines” as transformation takes hold over quarters or years.
Recommended Reading:
Phil Gilbert, Irresistible Change: A Blueprint for Earning Buy-in and Breakout Success