The Trade Desk Joins the S&P 500

Summary

Motley Fool Money: The Trade Desk Joins the S&P 500 – July 17, 2025

Hosted by John Quast with insights from Matt Frankel and Tom Gardner

---

1. Introduction

In the July 17, 2025 episode of Motley Fool Money, host John Quast delves into several pivotal financial topics, starting with the significant addition of The Trade Desk to the S&P 500 index. Joining him are longtime Motley Fool contributor Matt Frankel and Motley Fool co-founder Tom Gardner. The discussion spans the implications for investors, the surge in Bitcoin investments, the rising popularity of stock options trading, and highlights a few promising "hidden gem" stocks poised to outperform the market.

---

2. The Trade Desk Joins the S&P 500

Impact on Shareholders

The episode opens with John Quast addressing the recent developments surrounding The Trade Desk. Following Synopsys's $35 billion acquisition of ANSYS, an open spot in the S&P 500 is being filled by The Trade Desk, an advertising technology firm.

Matt Frankel emphasizes the immediate benefits for shareholders:

"If anything, it's time to take a victory lap. The biggest impact in the immediate sense is just that the S&P 500 index funds are all going to be required to buy shares..." (01:18)

Being part of the S&P 500 means increased visibility and demand for The Trade Desk's stock, particularly from large index funds that hold substantial portions of S&P components.

Company Performance and Future Prospects

Tom Gardner provides a historical perspective on The Trade Desk, highlighting its impressive growth since its 2016 IPO:

"Up 2,600% since going public in 2016... it's now a $40 billion market cap company." (02:24)

He notes that while the inclusion in the S&P 500 is a commendable milestone, the company's future success hinges on its continued business performance amidst rising competition. Gardner points out that The Trade Desk's focus on programmatic advertising and connected TV has positioned it well in a growing sector, although achieving the same explosive returns as in the past may be challenging.

John Quast concurs, reflecting on the company's resilience after missing guidance and its ability to maintain long-term growth despite short-term setbacks:

"It really is just an example of the hidden gems process at work." (01:50)

Tom Gardner adds:

"I would say Trade Desk is looking more fully valued now, more fully appreciated in the marketplace. I still think it can beat the market from here..." (02:24)

---

3. Bitcoin’s Rising Institutional Adoption

Current Landscape

The conversation shifts to Bitcoin, highlighting its position as the world's largest cryptocurrency nearing an all-time high. Institutional interest has surged, with companies like Semler Scientific and BlackRock making substantial Bitcoin purchases.

Tom Gardner discusses the evolution of Bitcoin investment:

"We're moving to the stage after the first 15 years where we're starting to see corporations and financial institutions buying." (06:56)

He underscores the transition from speculative individual investments to serious institutional adoption, bolstered by the introduction of Bitcoin ETFs and regulatory clarity.

Investment Considerations

Matt Frankel shares a personal anecdote and current perspectives:

"I was one of those weird guys back in 2013 with a little mining rig set up in my house... I wish I had kept the three bitcoin or so that I had mined till now." (09:22)

He highlights the growing regulatory acceptance and potential for increased trading volumes, which could drive long-term upward momentum despite Bitcoin's inherent volatility.

Tom Gardner offers a broader economic view:

"I think bitcoin is going to outperform the market substantially over the next five to 10 years, but it will be volatile." (08:31)

He draws parallels between Bitcoin and gold, suggesting that as governments grapple with fiscal responsibilities, alternative assets like Bitcoin may become more attractive as stores of value.

John Quast concludes the Bitcoin segment by emphasizing the fundamental differences between cryptocurrencies and traditional stocks, advising investors to approach Bitcoin with an understanding of its unique dynamics.

---

4. Surge in Stock Options Trading

Current Trends

The podcast highlights a notable surge in stock options trading, particularly zero-day options, which expire on the same day they are purchased. Robinhood reported a 46% increase in options trading in the first quarter of 2025 compared to the previous year.

Matt Frankel attributes this surge to renewed investor appetite for speculation, reminiscent of the 2021 era:

"Speculative options bets go correctly, which I would be willing to bet is most of what's happening on Robinhood." (11:09)

He draws parallels to the GameStop rally, emphasizing that options trading allows investors to amplify their speculative moves.

Risks of Short-Term Trading

Tom Gardner expresses caution regarding the increasing popularity of zero-day options:

"It's going to cause more volatility than normal in those types of investments." (12:29)

He warns that the current market conditions, characterized by high valuations and increased speculation, are not conducive to short-term trading strategies. Gardner advises a more cautious and moderate investment approach, suggesting that now is not the time to engage in high-risk speculative trades.

John Quast echoes this sentiment, sharing personal experiences of better investment outcomes through long-term strategies rather than short-term speculation.

---

5. Hidden Gems: Promising Stock Picks

Towards the end of the episode, the hosts spotlight several "hidden gem" stocks that they believe have the potential to outperform the market.

Rocket Companies (Ticker: RKT)

Matt Frankel praises Rocket Companies for its strategic acquisitions and growth prospects:

"Rocket Companies is the parent company of Rocket Mortgage, Quicken Loans, and a few other financial businesses... their loan volume in 2021 was about four times what it is now." (16:03)

He anticipates a refinancing boom if mortgage rates decline, positioning Rocket Companies to capitalize on increased refinancing activity.

Progressive Corporation (Ticker: PGR)

Tom Gardner highlights Progressive Corporation for its strong performance and strategic advantages:

"Progressive is expecting their combined ratio to fall close to 87%, demonstrating extreme underwriting discipline." (17:22)

He commends Progressive's commitment to telematics and technology, which has given them a competitive edge over peers like Geico. Gardner views Progressive as a stable, low-volatility investment with potential for market outperformance.

Xometry (Ticker: XMTR)

John Quast introduces Xometry as an AI-powered manufacturing marketplace poised for growth amidst the onshoring trend in US manufacturing:

"Xometry is in a really good place to be able to pick up some of that business. First quarter revenue up 23%. It just turned profitable." (19:10)

Tom Gardner adds that Xometry's advancements in AI and significant investments in technology make it a compelling investment opportunity, urging listeners to explore further within the Motley Fool’s resources.

---

6. Conclusion

John Quast wraps up the episode by reminding listeners to consider the Motley Fool's recommendations thoughtfully and to adhere to their investment strategies rather than making decisions based solely on podcast discussions.

"Don't buy or sell stocks based solely on what you hear. All personal finance content follows Motley Fool editorial standards..." (21:17)

The episode provides a comprehensive analysis of The Trade Desk's inclusion in the S&P 500, the evolving landscape of Bitcoin investments, the risks associated with the surge in options trading, and actionable insights into potential high-performing stocks. Listeners are encouraged to maintain a balanced and informed approach to their investment strategies amidst the dynamic market conditions.

---

Key Takeaways:

• The Trade Desk's addition to the S&P 500 signifies increased institutional interest and potential upward pressure on its stock price, though future growth may stabilize.
• Bitcoin is transitioning from a speculative asset to one embraced by institutions, with potential for substantial long-term growth despite volatility.
• The surge in stock options trading, particularly zero-day options, presents significant risks and underscores the importance of a long-term investment approach.
• Hidden gems like Rocket Companies, Progressive Corporation, and Xometry offer promising opportunities due to strategic positioning and market trends.

---

For more detailed analyses and investment insights, consider subscribing to Motley Fool Money and exploring their comprehensive financial resources.

Transcript

[John Quast]

Foreign what does it mean for investors now that the Trade Desk is set to be the newest member of the s and P500? This is motley Fulmin. Welcome to Motley Fool Money. I'm your host today, John Quast. And joining me today is long term Motley fool contributor Matt Frankel, as well as Motley fool co founder and Tom Gardner. Both of you guys, thank you so much for being here today. We've got a lot of things to look at today, whether it is bitcoin, investing trends, but let's start with our first story here. So semiconductor company Synopsys just received all the approvals it needs to buy out S&P 500 constituents ANSYS in a $35 billion deal. That leaves a spot open in the index and it's getting filled by advertising technology company the Trade Desk. Matt? Tom, the Trade Desk was down by 68% earlier in 2025 after the company missed its own guidance for the first time as a publicly traded company. Now, just a little while after the scare, joining the s and P500 officially tomorrow, July 18th. Matt, let's start with you. What does this mean for the Trade Desk shareholders?

[Matt Frankel]

Yeah, I mean, if anything, it's time to take a victory lap. The biggest impact in the immediate sense is just that the s and P500 index funds are all going to be required to buy shares, which is why you saw the the average S&P 500 component is something like 25 to 30% owned by just like three or four big S& P index funds. So that is a lot of upward pressure on the stock. Now, having said that, being in the S and P doesn't affect the business itself, but it is very impressive how far the Trade Desk has come. And it really is just an example of the hidden gems process at work. And it does get the stock on the radar of some institutional investors. But it's not a big victory business wise, but it kind of is, right?

[John Quast]

Yeah. When you look at what happened to the Trade Desk, really just a blow to the confidence there when it missed its own guidance, but that was just one quarter. It's not the long term trend. Speaking of the long term trend, Tom, I know this is a stock that you've followed for many years, up 2,600% since going public in 2016. What did you initially like about the Trade Desk? And do things still look bright to you for its future?

[Tom Gardner]

Well, first thing I'll say is just to affirm what Matt said, which is I think the move into The S&P 500 is exciting in the moment, but relatively short lived because it ultimately comes down to how well the businesses perform. But it does raise the profile for the Trade Desk, which is now a market cap about $40 billion. We began recommending the Trade Desk across a number of services, rule breakers, hidden gems and others. The Motley fool, you know, back in 2017 in that area, a year or so after they came public, we did an interview with Jeff Green. That's always a validating thing. I would say anyone who's investing in stocks, if you can find an interview with the CEO, YouTube, wherever you can find it. Obviously earnings call transcripts can give you some of their personality as well. But I took away from that interview in 2017 that, that we did with Jeff Green. Very, very positive things about the business and the leadership, I would say, in terms of looking at companies, what would we look for to find that pattern that we found in the Trade Desk early on? Because as you said, it's now, you know, a 25 bagger in, you know, less than a decade since coming public. So that's just an outstanding return. In the case of the trade Desk, I would say you have a company with its focus on programmatic advertising. So first in programmatic advertising, that is a higher margin portion of digital advertising. You know, historically the digital advertising was you'd call on the phone, we talked to. I remember our first deal with a discount broker that we had way back in the 1990s of the motley Fool. And you know, we actually called it the handshake. We wrote a written contract, we said, hey, we don't know what's going to happen here. Let's see. But it's become so much more sophisticated over the last couple decades. And now what you have is, you know, essentially AI powered programmatic advertising. So you put your dollar amount in and, you know, it just spreads across the Internet to find the best locations for that ad. That is so much more sophisticated than traditional media. So the money was coming from traditional media into digital, but then from digital towards programmatic and then programmatic toward connected tv. That's, that's the business pattern. But let's just talk about two or three things you see in a company's financial performance that can help you find them. Number one, they're taking market share in the higher margin developing area in a business. Their gross margins are rising. Okay. And their returns on invested capital are rising. Those were all happening with the Trade Desk. And you asked John, you know, what do we think of it now? I would say again around a $40 billion market cap. The stock's around $84 today. I would say Trade Desk is looking more fully valued now, more fully appreciated in the marketplace. I still think it can beat the market from here, but you're not going to get anything like what we've gotten over the last decade. But, but again, it's well positioned well in a growing trend. It's just that there's more competitive threats now in its marketplace than when it really emerged as the true leader in programmatic and connected TV advertising.

[John Quast]

I couldn't agree more. And going back to CEO Jeff Green, definitely not afraid of the competition that's ahead. Definitely facing those big tech giants head on. So not short of ambition. I think it definitely has opportunity to continue to grow in its market. Well, coming up next, we are talking bitcoin. This is motley fool money.

[Advertisement]

These days. Clients want it all. A slick looking site that can run their business and scale with their success. The good news? That's exactly what WIX Studio is built for. Plan out your client's whole site in seconds with AI powered site mapping and wireframing. Then when everyone's on the same page, jump into the creative starting off in Figma and exporting it in a click or or in the WIX Studio editor with precise layouting tools like Grid Stack and Flexbox. Go above and beyond the brief with no code, animations, custom CSS and built in business solutions and make your whole vision responsive in a click. And there's zero need to break a sweat when clients grow fast. A dynamic CMS with global design settings and reusable assets lets you turn one page into hundreds, design smoother and deliver Sooner. Go to wixstudio.com let's move on to.

[John Quast]

Our next topic here. As of this taping, the world's largest cryptocurrency is Bitcoin and it's sitting near an all time high price. There has just been a wave of institutional buyers this year in 2025. This is coming from companies from corporations and just this morning Semler Scientific announcing that it bought 210 more bitcoins and now owns over 4800. You know that's a lot at its current price of 118,000 per bitcoin. But you know it still pales in comparison to a company like strategy that owns more than 600,000. Even news coming out this week that BlackRock because of its Bitcoin ETFs actually holds even more than that. It's the largest holder. Tom, if all of These companies and all of these other investors are buying Bitcoin. Is this something that every investor should incorporate into their investing strategy?

[Tom Gardner]

Well, I mean, I first have to call it Semler Scientific because I find it's such a. I mean, it's such an enjoyable. I mean, I would say funny story because it's a company with a market cap below 600 million. So this is a very small company in the public markets. I mean, their core business is blood flow measurement technology. They are a healthcare technology company that has decided to just aggressively buy Bitcoin. And right now it's certainly looking like a good move. So we're moving beyond that. Let's say the first 15 years of Bitcoin were largely about early adopters, you know, techies and very technically minded people as well as individuals. That just said, I'll take a little bit of a risk on this. Now we're moving to the stage after the first 15 years where we're starting to see corporations and financial institutions buying. So the movement of this now 2.4 trillion dollar asset is largely going to depend on how much institutions back and buy and validate bitcoin. So this is no longer a speculative. Hey, a bunch of people on the Internet are playing around, you know, in their home, building their own mining systems in their basement. Like this is a very for real thing with ETFs with, you know, substantial asset basis for ETFs out of the gate, these Bitcoin ETFs. So this has been legitimized. But Bitcoin is valued at about 2.4 trillion I mentioned earlier. And gold is about 17, 17 and a half trillion. So about seven times larger allocation for gold. One quick note on this. Gold over the last 25 years has outperformed the S&P 500, which is pretty remarkable over a quarter century.

[John Quast]

What?

[Tom Gardner]

Yeah, I. It's hard to fathom, but it is actually true.

[John Quast]

That's. You just blew my mind on the podcast.

[Tom Gardner]

So. So I do think the relationship between bitcoin and gold is a good one to watch. And I think that gap will narrow for me until you start seeing governments taking more fiscal responsibility and really trying to balance budgets by getting the tax policies right, getting the spending policies right and getting them aligned, getting both sides on the same team so we're not yelling less filling, taste great at each other. Until that happens, you're going to see the debasing of currency which does fav these alternative assets like bitcoin as a store of value. So I will go on the Record saying, I think bitcoin is going to outperform the market substantially over the next five to 10 years, but it will be volatile. And if anyone's not bought any bitcoin and wonders, you know, when do I jump into the skipping rope here and what's the time to get going, you know, just wait for it to decline 20%, it's going to happen. It's happened a lot before.

[John Quast]

Matt, what about you? Do you think that there's anything here to like about bitcoin?

[Matt Frankel]

Well, I was one of those weird guys back in 2013 with a little mining rig set up in my house like Tom just mentioned. I wish I had kept the three bitcoin or so that I had mined till now. I was trading at about $300 and to me it was free money.

[Tom Gardner]

This breaks my heart.

[Matt Frankel]

I know. And I wanted to really just understand how the technology worked. That's really the only reason I did it. It wasn't anything to do with investing. But right now there is a lot to like about bitcoin, especially in the current regulatory environment. Just to name one example, Sofi is a stock that I follow very closely. And their management just announced that they are bringing back crypto trading to the platform because we finally got regulatory clarity that banks can be crypto custodians. That's why they dropped it in the first place. They could be the first of many to bring cryptocurrency trading to their platform. And imagine if some of the big banks end up doing it now that we actually have regulatory clarity. So that's just one example. I don't necessarily think everybody needs to own bitcoin, but there's a whole lot to like about it right now. And I think that the trends are going to encourage higher trading volumes which should put long term upward momentum in bitcoin.

[John Quast]

As we talk about bitcoin. And there's just fundamental differences between cryptocurrencies and stocks. I think it's really important to note that. And on a similar note here, I think it's important to distinguish between investing in stocks and trading in stock options. And you know, gentlemen, there's an undeniable surge in popularity when it comes to stock options. And just in the first quarter of 2025, the Robinhood app saw options trading at an all time high. They were up 46% from the previous year, up 84% from two years ago. Matt, why do you think that investors are so interested in trading stock options right now?

[Matt Frankel]

The short answer is that they're doing it for the wrong reasons. In a lot of cases. Options are exciting and there's lots of money to be made. Speculative options bets go correctly, which I would be willing to bet is most of what's happening on Robinhood. A longer answer is that over the past few months we've seen really this investor appetite for speculation that we haven't seen since the 2021 era really start to make an appearance again. We've seen SPACs start to make a comeback. For example, we've seen the Meme stock trade and the Wall Street Bets group. The same can be said in recent days on the iBuyers Open Door and OfferPad. Open doors tripled over the past month. So traders see options and they see this as a way to amplify moves like this even further. And I mean, if you remember the GameStop rally that was primarily options driven. So it's not a big surprise given that all of those other kinds of speculation have come back to see options volume really soar.

[John Quast]

It's worth noting too that within the options trading trend, this actually really surprised me. According to CB, 61% of option activity in May was zero day options. So these are options that you buy today and they expire today. It's essentially a short term prediction of the stock price. Tom, is thinking short term a good idea.

[Tom Gardner]

Oh, I see the largest softball coming over the plate at a Chicago softball field right now and I'm just waving my bat waiting for it. Let's remember our college days in Spring Fling. You know, Spring week, the market rolls from party to hangover to party and back again and again. So we're moving back deep into the party now. We're going to feel bad at some point because you don't stack up some of these factors together and not pay the penalty at some point. The market's trading at about 25 times earnings. We're 30 to 35% above the 200 week moving average. The S P 500. The US stock market is representing about 70% of equity value worldwide. I start hearing a song like Trouble by Ray Lamontagne when this happens. If you haven't heard that song before, play it. It sends a little bit of a message about what happens when zero day options start becoming very active. Executive insider selling is picking up. And now above average. You have above average levels of margin debt and we have the leveraged ETFs out there. I don't know why the SEC stopped at 3x leveraged ETFs. Let's make them 9x leverage ETFs let's just allow people, you know, so there's more and more speculation as people are having more and more fun. They're going back, you know, to get another drink at, at 1:00am and I'm, I'm not saying this is not a good reason to invest. I am saying that there's a very good reason to look at the type of investments you're making right now. And this would not be the time to climb out on the edge of the branch, right? This would be the time to stabilize with some more cautious and moderate classified investments. That's we classify every stock of the Motley fool as cautious, moderate, aggressive, and I'd be in the cautious or moderate zone. But let's remember we've been rewarded for staying invested. Like I love an investor like Jeremy G.R. grantham, but he still has a call out there that the S P is going to 3200. I never heard him correct that one. So it's dangerous to turn bearish and start pulling your money out of the equity markets. It's much better, I think, to gradually change the style of investments in your portfolio. So if you're very growth and tech oriented now, recognize there's so much enthusiasm and there's leverage behind it and that can end up causing more volatility than normal in those types of investments.

[John Quast]

Well, I can personally attest that all of my worst investing decisions were when I was thinking short term instead of long term. So definitely appreciate that perspective. Coming up later in the show, we're talking hidden gems that we think will beat the market from here. This is Motley fool money.

[Advertisement]

You just realized your business needed to hire someone yesterday. How can you find amazing candidates fast? Easy. Just use Indeed. Stop struggling to get your job post seen on other job sites with Indeed sponsored jobs, your post jumps to the top of the page for your relevant candidates so you can reach the people you want faster. According to Indeed data, Sponsored Jobs posted directly on indeed have 45% more applications than non sponsored jobs. Don't wait any longer. Speed up your hiring right now with Indeed and listeners of this show will get a $75 sponsored job credit. To get your jobs more visibility@ Indeed.com podkatz13 just go to Indeed.com podkatz13 right now and support our show by saying you heard about Indeed on this podcast. Terms and conditions apply. Hiring Indeed is all you need.

[John Quast]

And finally, Fools, as our earnings season here is starting to heat up a little bit, starting to kick off, we've got some hidden gems we think are hidden Gems that are on our radar. Matt, what do you have for us?

[Matt Frankel]

Yeah, I am watching Rocket Companies very closely. Ticker symbol is rkt. Not to be confused with Rocket Lab usa, which is also an excellent business. But Rocket Companies is the parent company of Rocket Mortgage, Quicken Loans, and a few other financial businesses. There are a couple reasons I like it. One, their acquisition strategy lately is really interesting. They recently closed on the acquisition of Redfin, which eliminated the two worst things about Redfin, its balance sheet and the fact that it's not profitable because it got absorbed by a profitable business. And they're acquiring Mr. Cooper, which is one of the biggest mortgage servicers in the world. And second, Rocket's bread and butter in the 2021, 2022 era was refinancing, as people were taking advantage of those low mortgage rates. Rocket's loan volume in 2021 was about four times what it is now. Right now, Americans are sitting on about $35 trillion in home equity, thanks to rising home prices and the fact that almost nobody is tapping into their equity at current interest rates. And if the Fed starts lowering rates and mortgage rates seriously start taking a turn downward, we could see a refinancing boom that would make 2020 and 2021 look small. So I think Rocket has a lot of opportunities and they are the company that's really on track to be the all in one online real estate disruptor. So I'm watching that one very, very closely.

[Tom Gardner]

I love that, Matt. I'll just throw in here to the mix. Progressive Corporation, ticker symbol pgr. We all know the company. If you watch sports, there are a lot of Progressive insurance ads. Obviously a very large insurer of automobiles, auto insurance, cars, motorcycles, boats, RVs, commercial vehicles. They do have a other lines of insurance at their business, but this is the primary category for them. Companies capitalize about 145 billion. It pays a 2% dividend. So the first reason I'm calling out Progressive today is because I do think, as we mentioned before and was mentioned on the show yesterday, that the market's becoming richly valued, particularly in certain segments. So I like to look to the other side when that happens. And there isn't a lot of buzz about Progressive insurance. But they just came out with some news this week about performance and guidance going forward, which is very pleasing. I'm just going to call out one number. They're expecting their combined ratio to fall down close to 87%. That's about 5 percentage points lower. That demonstrates extreme underwriting discipline. So they're essentially Making a nice double digit margin on all of the insurance contracts that they're writing. So Progressive gained a big advantage over Geico, its primary competitor, by committing to telematics and technology and really tracking how well drivers are doing out there on the road and aligning their, their insurance offers to how well you're driving. And Progressive, it's been a great stock over the long term. It's been relatively flat in the last year, maybe about a 10 gain. But this is a well positioned business, very stable, I think a great brand. You can easily add money to progress in my opinion and expect a below average volatility in the stock market level performance. But I think maybe market outperformance with the richly priced S and P. And you're going contra to what's happening in the marketplace today. And that's why I talk up pgr, the Progressive Corporation.

[John Quast]

Wow. Rocket Mortgage. Progressive. I'm going somewhere completely else entirely. This IS Xometry symbol XMTR. This is a very small cap company, under $2 billion. It's an AI powered manufacturing marketplace. And what I really like about this company right now, the, the use case for users is provides instant pricing, instant lead time. So this is really helpful if you need something manufactured. It provides injection molding services, CNC machining, die casting, these are all really important things. And in the current political environment that it's incentivizing this onshoring of manufacturing, I think that Xometry is in a really good place to be able to pick up some of that business. First quarter revenue up 23%. It just turned profitable. I think this is a company that not a lot of people know about but that can play a really big part in this onshoring of US manufacturing. And so it's one that I like here at only three times sales.

[Tom Gardner]

And one thing I'll say about that, John, to close is that Xometry in our AI powered Moneyball database, if you're a Motley fool member, take a look at our databases because we have a whole enterprise license driven AI powered scoring system for public companies. And Xometry is showing a lot of progress over the last couple years in their product development, in their scoring of their products and making significant investments, as you've mentioned, in technology and AI relative to its competitors. So I haven't looked at Xometry closely, but I'm going to now.

[John Quast]

Well, that's it for our show today. As always, people on the program may have interest in the stocks they talk about and the Motley fool may have formal recommendations for or against, so don't buy or sell stocks based solely on what you hear. All personal finance content follows Motley fool editorial standards and is not approved by advertisers. Advertisements are sponsored content and provided for informational purposes only. To see our full advertising disclosure, please check out our show notes for Tom Gardner, Matt Frankel and the entire Motley fool money team. I'm Jon Quast and full on.

[Tom Gardner]

It.