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- [00:01]
A
Hello and welcome to the Mountain State Liberty cast. I am your host, Ty Ward. Today I'm joined, as always, back from the dead, Taylor Richmond. Hello, Taylor.
- [00:11]
B
Thanks, Ty. Great job with Matt.
- [00:14]
A
Did you just say great job?
- [00:16]
B
Great job.
- [00:17]
A
Great job with Matt. Thanks, man.
- [00:20]
B
I'm so proud of you.
- [00:21]
A
Yeah, no, I was, I was kind of. I missed, I missed having you muted while I had rambled. No, it was good. I think Matt was really engaging and he, he really considered a lot of his answers and I think he, he gave a lot of information that I'm, I'm taking to heart and I think anybody in the, in the party that wants to, you know, work on some strategy and stuff, I think he gave some really good insight and stuff that we've talked about before and you, you kind of lose sight of it. But the non partisan race stuff is something we always talk about but kind of goes by the wayside. So I think that's something that really could be, you know, a game changer. If it's just hard, you know, all this stuff is just, it's easy to talk about, but it can be kind of hard to actually implement. But that was a good, it was a good episode, I think.
- [01:08]
B
Yeah, that was great. Good job.
- [01:10]
A
Yeah. So today we wanted to address stuff that the legislature is doing. They're, they're pulling some sneaky, sneaky stuff and playing some games, it seems like. And it's. But unfortunately it's something that has been one of their biggest, biggest successes, but mixed with one of their biggest unkept promises. That's the hope scholarship and tax cuts.
- [01:33]
B
So.
- [01:34]
A
Yeah. So, Taylor, could you give them a rundown of what's gone on in the last, what, two weeks now?
- [01:39]
B
Yeah, thereabout. I mean, and it's happening pretty quickly and surprisingly, we're seeing budget proposals generally earlier than we usually do or we did. And again, just some inside sausage making the House and Senate alternate who submits their budget bill first. So it was the Senate side this year took the lead, but they came out in a little earlier than they normally do, which was a little bit newsworthy. But as we discussed, there's been this back and forth between the legislature and the governor's office regarding his design or desired tax cuts. He's asked, well, he's talked about a 10% cut. His budget only included 5% or outlined cut for 5%. And he, you know, allegedly or somehow, you know, put out the olive branch to say, hey, I've gone the first half. I'm happy to help with the other Half, if you can help me identify it. And the response from the Senate was quite interesting. They helped him to get there, but in doing so, they took the funding for the HOPE Scholarship, which. Pause, caveat. So everyone understands the significance of it. 2026 is the year where it is expanded to effectively a kind of open enrollment. So there is an anticipated increase in funding necessary for it based on projections of individuals signing up for it that we didn't have in the last year. So it does have a higher price tag than it did the year before. So with that caveat, the Senate took HOPE Scholarship funding for the HOPE Scholarship, which is something that is codified. They've passed it, you know, supposed to be a guarantee to families in West Virginia, and they put it on the tail end of their budget where it's covered by surplus funding. Now, surplus funding generally is what you use to pay for kind of wish list items and, oh, by the ways. And if we have some extra in the kitty, then, you know, we'll do this other little thing here and there. It shouldn't be what you utilize to fund, you know, actual codified obligations in your budget. So that was a huge smack in the face to a lot of proponents of HOPE and families who are either currently on HOPE or are looking to take advantage of the new enrollment opportunities this fall, especially a lot of individuals who are planning right now for where they're going to be going next fall. And then the House came out and submitted a budget that basically had no tax cut whatsoever. So. So basically what has happened is between the House and the governor's office, this HOPE Bill, or the HOPE Scholarship, which is really more of a voucher program than a scholarship, but has now become a chess piece in the negotiations over the governor's tax cut or desire. Tax cut.
- [04:57]
A
Yeah. Well, just to correct you a little bit, it is not a voucher. It is an esa. It is something that you have to spend funds in a certain way, and most of it is stuff that you have to get through a virtual portal they've created. You know, a voucher system is something that you basically get money and then you go spend it so that a lot of people, proponents of hope, really try to point that out, that it's not really a voucher process. And because so many people say that there is no, you know, monitoring or accountability, and that's anything but the truth. I mean, one of the reasons we don't participate in hope, and I know some other families don't as well, is because we don't want that much Control handed to the government over what curriculum and what things we spend our money on. So that, that has nothing to do with the main topic. I just wanted to correct the language there that it's not really a voucher. Some places have vouchers. But similar to the whole argument about funding of schools, we're not really public schools here aren't really a per pupil funding. There's all kinds of factors that go into it. But all everybody talks about is the, you know, the attendance being the, the funding source. So that really, you know, this is a sidebar. But yeah, so Taylor, you and I had a little, and just to tell everybody, I apologize, I'm getting over a cold. So my voice can be a little weird. You might hear some coughing, sniffling. And Taylor made sure to point out that I was sniffling in the Matt Kibbe interview. So, yeah, just, you'll just have to work around that with your ears. Speaking of which, mute button cough. So, yeah, Taylor and I had a little bit of a disagreement earlier in the week about the, the whole reasoning behind the, the budget, budget discrepancy and why it's being put in surplus and some of the other stuff that's going on. And it kind of goes to the main topic here that, you know, I was, we, we had an interview with Jamie Buckland, you know, early on in the podcast. And I encourage you to, you know, search her name, that's the title of the podcast, and listen to her speak about it. And one of the issues she had was that the, the amount of money that was going to be coming down the pike and what she was talking about is what has come now that that future was now our reality that they have gone from the original time span of only people that had been enrolled in public school qualified for the HOPE scholarship and now they've gone to everybody's qualified. So at that point, like our family wasn't qualified for HOPE because our kids had never been in public school, so we couldn't use it. Well, now we can. So that adds a whole new group of people. And like you said, Taylor, it really added a lot of, you know, a larger fiscal note to what this legislation was proposing. And she, what she said was they have no, no plan to pay for this. And in my opinion, it's both things that they really are having to scramble to try to find the funding for it because contrary to popular belief, it doesn't take much of any money from the public school system. It's all extra money that they're having to spend to fund the HOPE Scholarship, not to mention the fact that the, you know, federal money and some of the property tax money stays with the school. So they're not, they don't have a decreed funding source for this, this law that they passed and put into code. And as you said, they made it a responsibility of the government because it's passed into law. It is now in the code book of the West Virginia state government and they didn't plan on paying for it. So what I, my assertion is is that they probably maybe had a plan. And then Patrick Morrissey says, oh, I want this 10 tax cut. And so they say, well, we can't do both, so we're going to put it in surplus. And in a way, it's the same thing you're insinuating, Taylor, that they're kind of playing a game saying, well, if you want this tax cut, we can't do both. So they're out of money. And this is the game they're playing is putting it all in surplus. And that kind of, it leads to what you said about it being a codified law, that that surplus isn't going to last forever. What is it? What is $800 million or something? They've said something like that, which to,
- [09:18]
B
to your point, just highlight. I've seen the Cardinal Institute and others come out with, you know, the numbers that say it's literally somewhere between 0.6 and 1% of the state's allocated budget on education. So, you know, a lot of folks are crying that, you know, HOPE is stealing money from the public schools, which, you know, even if you want to go down that rabbit hole to say, okay, yes, that 0.6 or 1% is being taken out of the public school funding for this, you have to then take a step back and look at the, what percentage is being realized in waste. And I had to use wastewater abuse. But again, kudos to the Cardinal Institute of highlighting things like Boone County, Roane county, we talked about Hancock county, the millions of dollars that are being embezzled and spent on frivolous things. So then turn around and say, oh well, 0.6 and 1% of the state is going to these other educational opportunities for students is breaking the system is just, it's, it's a terrible line of argument and it's fear mongering more than anything else.
- [10:32]
A
And so, yeah, so the point is, is that hope is, it's quite the opposite. The problem is, is that hope isn't funded. And when you talk about a county's budget, it's not that it's using their money. It's revenue reduction. That's the only argument they have, is it's not taking from their regular budget. I mean, I guess in a way it is, but only because it's reducing the amount of dollars they get. They don't get that full student allocation. But here's the thing. They still get a part of it. They still get the federal portion of that money. And they're not having to educate that student. They're not having to actually do the education of that student. So they're getting money for a student they're not even educating. And I pulled. Speaking of the Cardinal Institute, I had this graphic pulled up because it points to exactly what you're saying. Of the four schools that are in the biggest trouble right now, Randolph county, they have a $2.8 million fiscal deficit for fiscal year 2025. Hope scholarship from last year. The revenue reduction, that's what they're titling it because that's what it is, was $193,000. That's point 40%, 40% of their budget. So they keep 99.6% of their budget. Boone County, 3.4. 3.4 million. Budget misuse. That's what they titled it. $125,000 for HOPE. That's 0.21%. Upshire County, $816,000 down, basically. Budget shortfall. They have $291,000. That's 0.5%. Hancock County, 6 million deficit. $426,000 for HOPE scholarship.9696% of their budget. So it's. It's. All of them are less than 1% of their budget loss or less than 1% of the budget shortfall they have. So you can blame a lot of things for the shortfalls in these budgets. HOPE Scholarship is not one of them. It's just not. You don't get $6 million in the red over four years, and that's how long the Hope Scholarship has existed. So. And you can see, speaking of Cardinal Institute, it's like we're. We're funded by them, but we're not. They had an interesting graph that showed the enrollment drop. And over the last 10 years, it's just been significantly dropping, slowly dropping. And then when the HOPE Scholarship drops, the. The HOPE Scholarship gets put into law, which. The first year, it wasn't even. You couldn't even get any money from it because they had a whole year to basically come up with a plan on how to allocate the Money. The. From 2022 to 2023, the enrollment took a nosedive. And that wasn't because of the HOPE Scholarship. That was because people were disaffected with the public school system. And I just want to point this out, Taylor, and I know you agree when you say the public school system, you're not even necessarily saying that you're unhappy with your teachers or you think your kid's not learning on an individual basis. Everybody can get a good education out of the public education system if they want to. I mean, you and I went to public school. I'm not saying we're geniuses, but I think we both got a decent result from public school. We have our qualms with it, but in mass, the system is not achieving what it should be for the mass majority of students. And so when you see this, this enrollment drop, it's parents taking their kids out of school for a reason. And it's not the HOPE Scholarship, it's not creating a school choice. It just so happened to be that the HOPE Scholarship dropped, dropped at the perfect time for all these parents to take advantage of it.
- [14:34]
B
Yeah. So a couple things I want to just, you know, add in there. First, to your point, again, you can, and I've mentioned in previous, you know, podcasts that this is a common attack from both the left and the right against each other and against us is that when you attack an institution that you therefore hate individuals that work instead institution. When you call for things like civil asset forfeiture repeal and qualified immunity repeal, all these things, you must hate police officers. And if you want, you know, accountability in public schools and you talk about the need for more money to go to the classroom and not to administration, you know, and you talk about that, then you hate teachers. It's like, no, no, I. We both agree that there are a high percentage of the individuals who work in the classroom. The teachers are wonderful, upstanding individuals who care deeply about the kids in their care and want the best for them. Our attack is on the system. Our attack is on the structure that has allowed some of these failures to not only happen, but happen continually. And we want to give individuals an opportunity to be able to choose alternatives and not be bankrupted in doing so. And I also had to, you know, have one of those, you know, actually moments the other day on Facebook with an individual commenting on our post who was basically giving us the libertarian litmus test on supporting HOPE because it is still taxpayer dollars know, being utilized. So to those individuals in the, on the lp, West Virginia or libertarian leaning, who are you know, holding us to that litmus test. Please note that in principle we would agree that this is not the way the education should be funded. There are better ways to do it. However, where we currently stand in West Virginia is that the education is a guarantee that via the state Constitution. The likelihood of getting that amended out of the Constitution is almost impossible. In the meantime, the pragmatic approach for libertarians and people who appreciate liberty and choice and the closest thing to a free market in this case is to allow things like the HOPE Scholarship to expand and be well funded. So yes, the Libertarian Party of West Virginia as its chair, is going to support the HOPE Scholarship because it's the best weapon we have right now against the system that otherwise pigeonholes students into public schools and only public schools. So with that, I mean, I think it's important for folks to understand and back away from this. Yeah. That. Well, if you support the HOPE Scholarship, you hate teachers. I think Libertarian Party, West Virginia Libertarians in general simply want what's best for our children, the children in our state. And that is not always found in the public schools. To your point, we got great educations. We were lucky. Again, we have our qualms. But unfortunately, one of the things with public schools provide is a very cookie cutter, one size fits all type of approach to education that doesn't work for everybody. And a lot of the complaints against HOPE is oh well, this is just a way for wealthy families to get their private school education subsidized, that's not the case. While there are some folks who have higher socioeconomic means are utilizing HOPE and sending their kids to private schools, a significant percentage are individuals who otherwise would not be able to afford either the homeschooling supplements or the private school and specialized care that the HOPE and education that the HOPE provides. So trying to whitewash the HOPE Scholarship and what it does on either of these fronts again is just fear mongering if nothing else and doesn't actually get to the root cause of what it is designed to do.
- [18:42]
A
Yeah, and, and again, one of those we, you could go over a list and we, we're going to. I, I know I've talked about it before, but we need to have Katie Switzer on to talk about some of the requirements, some of the, the myths and, and facts about HOPE scholarship and, and school choice in general. But you know, one of the things people say, there's no accountability and I don't know if people are not aware of it or what, but private schools, homeschoolers, charter schools, they all have to take standardized testing in some way and prove that their kids are meeting standards. So all these people that think that there's no accountability for the quality of education, it's just not true. But if you want to talk about quality of education and standardized testing, I mean, I don't think we have to point out that the public school system gets abysmal results. If you want to talk about results and accountability, what accountability has there been for the abysmal results with the public school system? There's none. I mean, you have a R in Roane county, our superintendent, I mean, and the truth of the matter is some of these schools are probably going to close in a couple years anyway just because of the way our funding formula is in the state and it needs to be addressed. But they moved up that timeline because they were horribly delinquent in their management of our funds. And that superintendent is now getting a job in another county as like a principal or something. He wasn't tarred and feathered and ran out of the industry. In a private school. If you ran a private school into the ground, you're not getting hired anywhere ever again doing that because it's a private business. You can't run a private school into the ground and expect to be hired again somewhere else. So where's the accountability? And everybody points to this Rand Institute study that the legislature paid for. And the thing they keep ignoring is they recommended fixing how they manage their workforce. The fact that they have so many employees that are, you know, below standard, and they have all these positions in administration that do next to nothing, or redundancy or jobs that only exist because they can't fire them because of employment policy, they ignore that part. Private schools and charter schools, they can take care of that situation on their own without having anybody to tell them to, because if they get a bad result, they find somebody else to do the job. And so you can pick apart private schools and public schools and even charter schools all you want, but the accountability of the free market far outweighs the accountability of anything public. This is the nature of anything government runs, is the bureaucracy feeds the bureaucracy. It doesn't. It doesn't ever, you know, reduce itself. Every when and when it does, everybody's astonished. In the private market and with these private schools, things change because people have the ability to do so and they want results because parents aren't going to continue sending their kids there if they aren't teaching their kids. So, I mean, it's. It's a silly argument in my opinion, but it's it's one of the ones they use. Either it's through, you know, cognitive dissonance or ignorance or playing on those that are ignorant and knowing what they're going to believe and not believe, because people already have a, you know, a preconceived notion that they've been fed about this stuff. So they just reiterate those, those objections. And, you know, Taylor, I. I don't know about you, but to me, the only, and it's ironic, the only legitimate argument is if. That you're an individual who says tax money and public, or what they call public money should only go to things run by the government. If you believe that, you have a leg to stand on, ironically, I think you're wrong. But if you believe that, sure, yeah, you're right. I mean, at least you have the valid argument. Your principle is sound because the HOPE Scholarship pays things that aren't. Aren't publicly run. Sure. But other than that, you have no leg to stand on because it's not even. That's the funny part, Taylor. The HOPE Scholarship hasn't. Hasn't even existed long enough to understand if it's going. If it's going to be a success or a failure at all. And everybody's fought it every step of the way. So it's not even been around long enough to succeed or fail.
- [23:05]
B
Yeah, well, and, and to be fair to your point, though, I would, you know, I would push back that. Because charter schools and private schools and it still have to, you know, maintain standards that the state, you know, imposes upon them to an extent, still is, while a thinner veil is still under the auspice of the state to a significant ascent. It's not like you are completely in a free market.
- [23:31]
A
Sure.
- [23:32]
B
Even homeschooling. Right. I mean, you, you have the ability to, you know, choose a wider array in terms of, you know, systems and programs that you utilize to teach your kids with, but you still have to submit assessments and all the rest set in place and maintained by the state. So you're still meeting the state's requirements in terms of education. If HOPE allowed you to go off into the ether and your kids would go off into some educational system that was outside the scope of the state of education and the state board of Education, then yeah, I would give a little bit more credence to that argument. But it's still like you still have to follow the rules set in place by the state. So while it's not a full extent of the free market, a private enterprise, it's definitely A lot better than generally what folks would say otherwise in terms
- [24:29]
A
of
- [24:32]
B
free market versus state controlled. But it's still there.
- [24:37]
A
Yeah, and, but that's the funny thing is, is the, it's ironic because they say, you know, it's, they're not getting a, the, the standard that the public school gets. And, and it isn't a free market, but they do make us homeschoolers fall, you know, make sure that we're meeting these pesky standards like reading, writing and math. Oh, it's, it's. I mean, it's. I don't understand why you have to prove that your kid is learning how to read. That's, I mean, it's bizarre. But your point is very well made. But it's just the standard. And here's the other thing, Taylor. Most counties, they're not even looking at the test results you submit. They're not, they don't care because your kid isn't bringing them any money. They don't. That's the thing is they're like, oh, these kids are going to fall through the cracks. Here's the thing. If you are truly concerned about homeschoolers being pulled out of school for, for some nefarious reason, the county board is, the county board office is the last people that you should depend on to make sure that that's happening because they do not care. And when I say don't care, it's not even emotional thing. They don't have time to care. They're worried about the bottom dollar. And your student isn't, isn't contributing that bottom dollar. So they're not doing it well.
- [25:52]
B
And Ty, you're more familiar with this than I am, but what happens if you're homeschooling and you, your child does not meet the standards that the state puts in place?
- [26:04]
A
I have no idea. Nothing. I don't. I've never even heard of it happening. I mean, there is some counties that will, you know, go after parents who don't submit it. I've heard that, and in that case recently, about that girl starving to death. That was something that she didn't submit her 11th grade or whatever, 8th grade portfolio or standardized test. The county didn't catch that. That was just a talking point. They were using that. She didn't submit it. That was. And again, as we say, okay, you put these stopgaps in place to try to catch this kind of stuff, but they didn't even catch it. They didn't even notice that she didn't turn it in. So what does, what Is the point. It doesn't make any sense. And to the actual standard being met. I've never even heard them. They've never told us. I mean, our kids have always met whatever's far beyond what they. Our county results are. So if they were in public school, they'd be above the norm. So I mean, they wouldn't tell us anything. But I've never heard of anybody being contacted by the county because their test score was too low or their portfolio didn't meet snuff. I mean, they just take it and put it in the file and that's the end of it. I mean, so to your point, I think, is it doesn't matter. I mean, what does it matter?
- [27:22]
B
So a quick AI search. If your student does not meet that requirement, then you have to submit a remedial plan. And if there's continual inability to meet the assessment standards, the state, the county superintendent may revoke the homeschooling exemption, meaning the child must return to public school unless the parent corrects the issue. It says it's rare, but. But is explicitly allowed under West Virginia law. So here's my, my counter question, or the reason I was asking that is what happens to teachers and principals when students in the public school system don't meet, you know, standards and expectations?
- [28:01]
A
Right. Yeah. Nothing. Right?
- [28:03]
B
Yeah. I mean, very similarly.
- [28:05]
A
Right.
- [28:05]
B
I mean, you'll yell about them in the news and they'll have to hear about it from the state BOE president, whatever, and the members of the house, but nothing happens. And again, for me, and I tell my wife this, my biggest. And people around me know one of my biggest pet peeves is hypocrisy. Like to your point about the stance of public taxpayer funds shouldn't do things, you know, for private. And that's your opinion. That's your opinion and you're wrong. But you know, you're stand on that because you're consistent. People aren't consistent in that. They, they'll go on and they'll, you know, post and they'll comment and whatever and say all these things about the standards of homeschooling and private schools and blah, blah, blah, and they're all up in arms that these kids aren't getting a great education less than the public schools. But where are they when these public schools continually have really bad outcomes in terms of reading and writing proficiencies, test scores and college placement and preparedness and all these other standards? And don't get me wrong, I'm not saying that all those, you know, federal and state things are always necessary and, or right. And teaching the test is not ideal. I get it. But at least be consistent. Like if you're going to harp on private schools and homeschooling for their standards or lack thereof or outcomes or lack thereof, then be equally outraged by what's happening in our public schools and the high propensity of students coming out of them to be underprepared, especially in comparison to other states. Again, you can say that teaching the test is not the ideal, but if everyone is teaching the same test and our, our students are coming in at the bottom almost every year, then we should be up in arms like their, their tortures, their torches should be lit in their pitchfork sharpened as, as heavily as they are against homeschooling and private schooling.
- [29:58]
A
Absolutely. And that's the speaking of torches lit just as high for one thing over the other. That's the problem with what are, you know, back to our main point of, with this whole fiscal issue with the West Virginia legislature is that, you know, while they're complaining about not having money for hope, a law they've already put into code, they are introducing new spending and making it easier to get other spending like grants for businesses and talking about giving $10 million to water resources in southern West Virginia. And that's not fiscally responsible. If you have a law that you already can't pay for, why are you introducing new spending? And that's something you and I talked about as well is it's very clear that school choice isn't a priority for a lot of the so called Republicans in our House and Senate in West Virginia. They, they don't seem very concerned in it. You know, like as we said many times before, they simply dust their hands and say, well, that's done. You know, we don't have to worry about that again. Well, no, you've created a monster and you're going to have to keep feeding it if you want it to live. And if it doesn't live, it's very clear that that's not a priority for you. So what do they do? I mean, and we haven't even talked about it yet, but you talked about the budget coming out of the House. There was a huge uproar because the, the House Finance Finance Committee was mulling over in their budget proposal capping Hope at $5,000 and adding all kinds of requirements, including making it so they couldn't pay for extracurricular sports activities which they have put in place. And they would cap tutoring. They wouldn't be allowed to pay for tutoring and some other things. So not only are they not planning to pay for it out of the general budget, they're trying to reduce the future of the bill or of the, of the law and cap a lot of things which we have predicted on here that they were probably going to do that. But I mean they're already doing that and it's only four years old because I don't think they gave it as much consideration as they should have in paying for it.
- [32:14]
B
Yeah, well. And I think it's just a hypocrisy. Well, and we talked about where the Republican Party is and kind of tying to other episodes that a lot of this is due to the fact that many of the quote unquote Republicans that are in the legislature are actually just pro life Democrats. They actually don't have a conservative bone in their body. They don't care about fiscally sound policy and management of state resources. They just slapped an R next to their name just so they could maintain their seat or win their next election. So it's not, it's unfortunate, it's not surprising. I, I hope that, no pun intended, that there's enough outcry or backlash from this gamesmanship, for lack of a better phrase. You know, we just put out an editorial on, on this HOPE being a chess piece between the House, Senate and the governor's office that they wisen up and realize that this is something important to a lot of families and children in the state. And while battling this, they have to put out the other fire of public education systems, poor use of funds all around the state. So I would imagine it would make the most sense to kind of allow Hope to move forward and then address the dumpster fire that is. Is in public education before they attack something like Hope. But we'll see. There's a new House committee bill, I think, or budget to be proposed tomorrow morning, which will be Monday. Talking to a few insiders, I don't expect that anything without Hope supported to move out of that committee. So my fingers are crossed. I'm not holding my breath, but my fingers are crossed that Hope will be saved this session. But I think it just proves that unfortunately we have to fight to maintain, maintain it and allow it to be available to every child in West Virginia.
- [34:20]
A
Yeah, and that's the thing is I don't. It seems like so many of them are just so ignorant to, to the, to the read the room kind of situation that in places like Roan County, I know there's so many parents that, and even teachers that Were, you know, resident. Resident. What's the word Renison? Reticent. Okay. Reticent about school choice and the HOPE scholarship. And then their schools are removed and they see the complete mismanagement of their public school system and then they see this opportunity that's been laid at their feet to be, be able to pay for anything other than nothing. Because what they have now is sticking their kid on a bus to ride for an hour both ways to school. And this would, doing what they, they were planning on doing or any cuts to HOPE is basically just pulling the rug out from under them because you know, $5,000 doesn't, I mean especially in the future, you know, with the cost of everything going up. Unlike public schools, you know, private schools, their budgets, they can't just increase their budgets. They have to increase the tuition when they do that. And so when you're capping what is already not enough for some of these private schools to get into these schools, you're again, you're reducing the amount of people that can take advantage of it. And one of the other things, Taylor, it's so funny because you know, you, you, you just said, you know, Democrats, pro life Democrats, is that there's a huge proposal and that was one of the things that RAND Institute recommended that they move the HOPE scholarship into an income based system where only, you know, a certain income threshold, basically only poor people could be able to take advantage of it. The idea being that people of means already have the ability to pay for public school. And you are a private school and you just go back to the, the how is this fair to anyone people, everyone has to pay property tax, everybody is contributing to their federal taxes, everybody is paying into this system. And again you're saying no, you don't get to participate in this. And when you look at the income threshold for any sort of poverty programs, my family, even your family, if you have a child, anybody who is doing anything and makes any kind of income, you're not going to qualify for it. So then again, we can't afford to pay $5,000 times however many kids we have. And I'm not saying I don't have know how many kids we have, I just, they're just not, they're not all in school. So if you're, now you're for my family, you're looking at $20,000 a year, Taylor, we don't have $20,000 laying around. So. Okay, cool buddy, if you're gonna do that, cut my taxes, give me my money back. If you're not gonna Let me use it. Give me my money back. Because not only would you be doing that, you have removed the schools from my area because of your asinine funding system. The most successful schools in our county, Taylor, are being shut down because consolidation is their means of fixing budget shortfalls. And it is statistically the least successful way to deal with that issue. Consolidating schools makes for worse outcomes. End of story. So that brings me to another point, Taylor. We can discuss you. You, they have to fix the public school system, even though you and I wouldn't be supportive principally of the public school system at all. We have a state constitution that lays out what has, what is required. And it's clearly intended in our state constitution that public schools are a thing, whether anybody can interpret it any way they want. If you have county school boards and a state school board, they're clearly insinuating that they expected to be a public school system. And your public school system is completely defunct. You can change how it's funded. The constitution doesn't say what the funding formula has to be. You decide that state legislature and you have been failing and they keep falling back on this thing. Oh, it didn't happen overnight. It's not going to be. It fixed overnight. You've had a decade plus and you've done nothing but give teachers raises. That's literally the only thing you've done. No, go ahead.
- [38:35]
B
And, and that's the, and that's the problem. Right. Is. And I was listening to the Tucker Carlson and Mike Huckabee interview and the whole, you know, supporting Israel, kind of like myth or, or fourth rail, you can't touch. And it's kind of like that. It's like, well, you have to bless Israel. Does that mean we have to, you know, support every terrible thing that they do? Shouldn't. I don't. That's not how I believe it should be interpreted at all as a Christian, but in a very similar, like, cognitive dissonance, everyone will refer back to, well, public education is interstate constitution. Okay, great. Does that mean we have to throw money into the dumpster fire that is public education as the only way to, you know, fix problems with it? No, I don't think it is. I think we can have serious conversations about reform and realignment and back to basics that are necessary. And again, the common refrain is, oh, well, you know, you're attacking these schools. You hate teachers. No, it's. We should be good stewards of the taxpayer money. If you're going to take money out of my paycheck, and everyone else's paycheck to fund these things. You should be the best damn stewards of it possible. And throwing millions of dollars like these Republicans in the House want to do to solve every problem that comes to like Hancock county is not being a good steward of taxpayer dollars. What's a reasonable first start, which surprisingly has been proposed by the state BOE president, Paul Hardesty. We don't need 55 BOEs. Consolidate that. But here's the sad truth is that even though Mr. Hardesty has come out as with that as a solution, where's, where's the movement by this conservative super majority, it's not. There was a bill proposed by Mallow back in the beginning of January and it's just languishing in committee. Nowhere else is that coming out as a possible solution to the problem. I don't know what the savings would be tie if you consolidated 55 counties into, let's say, 10 regions, but I imagine it's millions of dollars in terms of just salaries alone. Salaries and benefits. That's always the number one expense in any type of operation. So.
- [40:55]
A
Well, and, but here's the thing, Taylor, and, and I, I get that and I hear people say that a lot. But my thing is bureaucracy is going to. Bureaucracy. The, the amount of money saved isn't going to make Gary school where I am, have any more students than it is. And as of right now, you can consolidate three of these counties around here and that school is still not going to qualify to stay open because the funding system is what it is. And it's not, it's not necessarily a matter of how much money the county per se has in total. It's the fact that their system says the state told them that that school didn't have enough students in it. So whether another county has more students or not, it's not going to keep that school open. The problem is, and that's one thing, and I get everybody harps on that, but that, that, that's not, that's not math. That's just, that's just moving things around. Like when they, they did that to the dhhr, they added more departments, but they act like moving chess pieces around is going to switch anything. Why does that county board office have so much administrative overhead when it didn't used to. What's the problem? What's the root of the problem? Why is it that when a teacher is a history teacher and they get riffed because there's not enough students for two history teachers, they, they don't go, sorry, buddy, they move them to like a art class to get paid the same so they don't get fired, but they're teaching art even though they have no experience in art whatsoever, but they're getting paid the same. Or you have a teacher that gets riffed and they move them into teaching like an online Spanish class and they're getting paid the same salary just so they don't have to fire them. That's the kind of stuff or teachers applying for jobs they're not necessarily qualified for and getting it over a new teacher or even somebody that, you know. Now they have that program where if you don't have a teaching degree and you have an expertise in the field, if you come into a science class and say, I've been a biologist for 30 years, I want to teach, but I don't have a teaching degree, but through this program I can get it or whatever. Then taking the praxis, but then, you know, a history teacher who's got tenure or seniority within the teaching system, they, they apply for the same job and they get the job over the guy that has been a biologist for 30 years. Those kind of things. That's not necessarily money wise. But you're, you're all of these systems that keep, you know, control out of the hands of the county boards. It. My main point is I don't think the counties have even been given the opportunity to do better because they're not allowed to, because they control next to nothing other than stuff that they shouldn't have control over. Like, why are you asking a county superintendent for the, the state to give them $30 million from the SBA to build a school when they haven't done their due diligence to give them the money? Like if the count, if you want to say the counties should, should be consolidated, at least give the county the, the responsibility to sink or swim and then say no. Well, you've, you've been given every opportunity to control this system and you failed. Now we're going to consolidate you with another school. I think it's like, like a cart before the horse thing. Like, I understand the premise of it. It's just, I don't. There's, there's. It's not going to fix anything. Just consolidating the counties, in my opinion.
- [44:22]
B
No, and I'm not saying that that is the. At all a solution. I think you're 100% right. There are a lot of structural issues in public education, not just in West Virginia. A lot of it is federally mandated things which will take A lot more peeling back onions and you know, cracking some eggs to make some omelets. So I don't disagree with any of that. My point was really just in regards to your comment about what our legislatures where, where they go and what their, their solutions are.
- [44:54]
A
Do something.
- [44:55]
B
Well, yeah, and that's so, so far all we have seen them do is propose to throw millions of dollars at counties that are underwater and to the tunes of millions of dollars and possibly, you know, punt hope to the back of the funding, the state budget to the surplus funds. There's no actual like, you know, we're not going to have silver bullets, but there's no, there's nothing there that's. I gave the consolidation of the counties into, into regions as a low hanging fruit.
- [45:29]
A
Right.
- [45:29]
B
Again, it's not going to resolve all the issues that you thought and instantly make public school or public education, you know, more feasible. But it reduces what I would say is an administrative, and we talked about in other episodes administrative bloat that how much percentage or what percentage of the funds per average student or average student funds doesn't even get to the classroom because it's lost at all those desks along the way. Well, give me some of those desks. And my point was just that if you're the president of the bo, the state BOE is proposing it and you're not taking him up on that in an atmosphere where people will say you hate teachers and whatever it's like, okay, well here's the expert, here's the head of public education giving us this effectively an olive branch. Start there. This is not something you are going to solve overnight. It is definitely going to be an elephant whose foot you have to nibble on. And this is where you can start. Do something. But my point was just the irony that the conservatives in the Republican Party of West Virginia and the legislature can't even take that hand off that fumble, if you will, and run with it. They just leave it at laying on the table.
- [46:40]
A
Yeah. And I'll give them credit because there is and I don't know where it is. I think it's in the House. But there was some talk of legislation too and it might be in the Finance Committee, a part of the budget bill. I don't think it would be, but I think it would have to have something to do with an education bill. But it was talking about moving because I guess right now each kid they allocate like $650 for them and it would move it, it would bump it up to $1,000 per student for something. And, and I don't remember exactly what that was, but it had something to do with the basic funding for each student. And then the. It would help with the special education part of it or the. Whatever you call that. We talked about it on one of our previous podcasts. But they, they are addressing some small things, and I wouldn't have a problem if every year they did a few things like that, because I think that would, you know, addressing real things and getting down to the bottom of them and doing things right the first time. Because, you know, ironically, Hope is a good example of them doing big things and not thinking it through. And. But I just would like for them to do anything. They've had a decade and they've done nothing. And again, even this year, they're talking about another moving the base salary for a teacher to $50,000. And it's like, okay, I mean, you can just keep giving them money all you want, but when you don't let them teach, what does it matter how much you pay them? I mean, that's one of the number one complaints you hear from teachers. Right? It's like a stereotype. They're not even allowed to teach what they want to teach. They're given. My mom always tells a story of, I think where. Where was she? She was talking about curriculum, and there's books on shelves that hadn't been touched. And she was like, well, what are these books? She's like, well, it's part of this curriculum and they make us buy it, but we don't use it because it's not good. So they're buying these books and they're not using them because they don't like them. So I'm like, what do we. Maybe that's some of that money that we're like, where's all this money going? It's going to things they're not even using. I'm sure they did with you. Did they have smart boards when you were in school?
- [48:50]
B
Yeah.
- [48:51]
A
Did any of your teachers use them?
- [48:55]
B
Some of them did. It was a. We had a pretty young staff in my high school when they were coming online, but there was definitely some. And I think they were given some flexibility as they were phasing them in. Some folks obviously were on their way towards retirement. Give me two more years of chalk and. Or dry erase and I'll be out of your hair.
- [49:16]
A
Well, and I can't remember when they came in place because I remember them, like, from history, but I don't remember if it was when I was in school or when I was subbing. But I remember, I think it was when I was subbing, a lot of the classrooms that had smart boards, they didn't work because they couldn't figure out how to make them work. Not the teachers. Like, they just didn't work. And then the ones that did use them when I would sub, I couldn't figure out what they were supposed to be doing with it. Like, when I would try to use them. Like, why? What is the point of this? Like, it doesn't. Like, I don't. I didn't see it enhancing anything. It was just like a gimmick. And then where are they now? They're. They're not there anymore. They got rid of them. I have a friend that buys electronics from school. He's one of the contractors that would, you know, dispose of electronics. And there is like hundreds of these smart boards that they spent God knows how much money on. And, and they have these tablets. They'll buy them. Before the state had a contract with Apple, they'd buy these, you know, and I'm sure the iPads are going to be similar, but you get these Chromebooks or whatever, and then they'd be obsolete. Obsolete in 18 months. And it's like, what are we spending all this money on? Like, what is a Chromebook if it's obsolete every 18 months, how is that better than just a history book that, you know, you find you. I'm sure you were the same way, too. You open up a history book and there's somebody's name signed in it from, like, 1980 or something. None of the math changed. Like, none of the science changed. I mean, some of the stuff is
- [50:45]
B
a little outdated, but unfortunately, math has changed because we have, like, new math and all kinds of crazy ways to do wrong.
- [50:53]
A
Another problem, and another thing. Yeah. Tom Rotenoff often points out, is that they, the. The Republican legislature promised to get rid of no Child Left behind, and all they did was change the name of it. And they didn't get rid of any of this Common Core stuff. Not no Child Left Behind Common Core. They didn't. They didn't get rid of Common Core. They just changed the name of it and, and adapted it. And they didn't do anything different. It's still the same rubbish, for lack of a better word. I mean, it's still the same stuff. They just called it something else. And we've. We've kind of teased on it here before, but like Amy Grady in the Senate, and God bless her for wanting to improve Education. But they had, they passed a bill that was a literacy initiative. Literacy, like, this is something you're thinking about now. Like, you have a school system that needs to have the legislature start a literacy initiative. That's like the, the one thing you're supposed to do, literacy. And you needed somebody to tell you how to do it. Like, what are they teaching? Like, it's bizarre. And you know, they say they don't want the legislature getting involved in education, but you need the, the state senate to propose a bill to get you to teach this program. And from what I've seen, Taylor, it's been successful since they passed that. Our reading scores are going up. So why do we need the state school board? Like, what is their accomplishment? What is their participation in this system?
- [52:16]
B
Yeah, I agree.
- [52:19]
A
And to the, you know, the, what is his name? Hardecy or whatever, the bud, the board president, you know, he made this huge speech about how the code book for, you know, public schools is so much bigger. It's this huge book and then the charter schools is this little binder and then for homeschooling, it's almost nothing. And you know, the irony is, is you don't. Like, he doesn't understand the point. First of all, he helped ride write some of that code that's been added on public schools. He's been involved in writing some of that code. So he's a part of his own problem he's talking about. Second of all, yeah, buddy, that's the point of school choice is you have your public school system where you've decided that you're not going to allow, allow any innovation or change. And we're saying, hey, let's give everybody a choice what system they want to participate in. The one with all kinds of regulation from the state that you think is necessary or other systems that have less bureaucracy and less requirements. And let's let the free market decide. Again, not a free market. Let's let market principles suss out what's the most successful way to educate kids. I mean, not that, I mean private. A lot of private schools are very similar to public schools in the way they teach. They're just freer to be able to choose what curriculum and what not to use and what to use and, and that kind of thing. You have religious based private schools, but you have your homeschooling, which is a completely different idea of schooling, charter schooling. A lot of them are very specific to a certain, you know, I don't know, sector stem. All the. That's the point of charter schools. So you're basically saying, let parents choose how their kids are educated. And to our point from before, no, no, no. If they're taking state money, all the code says in that little bit of code you're saying most of that is, is telling them that they are required to meet a standard. And it's not any different from the standard from public schools.
- [54:17]
B
Right.
- [54:17]
A
And across the nation, homeschoolers. That's one of the things we first were told when we were researching homeschooling when our first two kids were very little, was that you see that when homeschool kids graduate, they have a higher rate of attending college, they have a higher rate of job placement, they have a higher rate of graduation from college and careers after college than kids that are in public school. So what's the argument? I mean, if you and I don't even address the whole abuse and neglect thing, because, Taylor, how many articles do I have to read every single week of a teacher or a janitor or an administrator or a coach sexually assaulting a child or abusing a child or any of that stuff? How many times do I have to read that for before you stop making that argument? And how many times do I have to read about a child that was in homeschooling that was abused or neglected and CPS knew about the case and did nothing? So how many times are we going to go over this? The government is not the arbitrator of morality. They're not good at it. So stop, stop with that argument. You can talk about results and how money should be spent and all this stuff, but if you're going to talk about that aspect of it, government is, is, is an abject failure when it comes to protecting children. End of story.
- [55:42]
B
Yep, I, I 100%. And let's just hope that. Again, I keep saying that it's not a pun intended.
- [55:49]
A
Hope that.
- [55:49]
B
Hope that. You know, like I said, there's enough backlash or outcry from the individuals. I have seen a number of legislators who are coming out and saying they're defenders of hope. So my hope is.
- [56:02]
A
Dang, man, my, My wish, my desire, your anticipation.
- [56:07]
B
I need a thesaurus.
- [56:09]
A
A thesaurus. I went to public school.
- [56:14]
B
Is that if, if some of these things get out of the, you know, the various respective finance committees, that they die on the floor or amended in such a way that hope is protected. So we'll see. It's going to be an interesting couple weeks. I think we should wrap it there because we have some talk about how we are going to be impacting that which is coming up this Thursday at Lobby Day, members of the LP West Virginia will be heading to Charleston to meet with some of our friends and foes down in the legislature to talk about where certain things are. As I, as we've talked about tonight, obviously hope funding is going to be a major priority for us. We were chatting briefly before we went on, on air here that there's not a whole lot of like really consequential legislation. There's, there's not as much fireworks going on outside of the budget at the moment down in, in Charleston. So there's not much for us really to weigh in on or, or have we think much direct impact on. However, we are going to speak to hope. We are going to try and help the constitutional carry for 18 year olds get over the finish line and we're obviously between now and then see if any other bills sneak in. But then we'll talk to folks about things like open fields and civil asset forfeiture that our good friend Delegate Horses has been promoting and pushing. So those are going to be our priorities. But we'll be happy to talk to all of our legislators the week, get a chance to chat with about the need to right size government and get Charleston out of our back pocket. So that is Thursday. We will be meeting in the morning. I believe we're talking about outside the treasurer's office. But if you're, if you're Interested please email infolpwv.org or message myself on Facebook. Around about 8:30 that morning we'll be meeting up and hitting the mean streets or the mean halls of, of Charleston.
- [58:30]
A
The mean halls, the East End. The East End, where the capital is is the main streets of Charleston. By the way. It used to be the west side, now it's the East End. So yeah, you're going to have to lock your cars.
- [58:41]
B
Yeah.
- [58:42]
A
Yeah. Good luck with parking.
- [58:44]
B
Yeah. And next month, well less than a month away actually March 14th is our convention again. We have the great Macbe and Scott Horton as our, our, our speakers for the event. It will, we're asking that you pay $25 to hear them to help offset the cost of them coming in. Obviously you can pay as much as you like, but that'll be the minimum. But that'll be the second half, if you will, of the time we're together from two to four at the Inn at Charlestown. Races before that we do have some business. We will be obviously entertaining individuals who are seeking nomination for candidacy for the coming election cycle. We'll be entertaining Anyone interested in the three vacant regional reps that we have in the southern part of the state, as well as anyone who's looking to help start up an affiliate in any of our non represented counties, either single county affiliates or multi county affiliates will do that as well. And then we have to select some folks to go represent us at national in May. So hopefully we'll get through that business relatively quickly and allow us more time with our guests. So. And to hear them. But we're excited for that. That is again March 14th to 2:00pm to 6:00pm at the end at Charlestown races in Charlestown, West Virginia.
- [60:12]
A
Yes. And the day before Friday we usually have a get together in the evening and we are still planning on that. So if you want to keep your Friday calendar open on that day, March 13, that'll be great too. But if you want to register for the speakers, I just want to put out there that on the website. It's not on the main page. You have to go to the events and then you'll see our convention on there. If you click on that, you can hit the register button that should probably be on our homepage but I don't have control over that. So I just wanted to let everybody know because I was looking for that the other day and it wasn't there. So yeah, the events and then click on our convention and you will see the register button and you can pay that $25 so you can hear our wonderful speakers. Yeah.
- [60:56]
B
So Friday, Friday night Tide I do want to mention because I think there's still some a few rooms left across the street at the Holiday Inn Express in Charlestown. There's a block for, I think it's $150 for the night. So please call them and reserve your room for Friday night.
- [61:14]
A
$150.
- [61:17]
B
Hey man, we're, we're in the.
- [61:21]
A
What I said what year is it?
- [61:24]
B
Is that, that not enough?
- [61:26]
A
What are you too much? Are you kidding me? $150.
- [61:29]
B
Okay, that's what I thought but again I was going to say we're in The Burrows of D.C. everything is, is more expensive in that part of the state so. But it's cheaper than the regular rate. So while they're still so many.
- [61:43]
A
Oh man.
- [61:44]
B
Hey man, thanks Trump and thanks Obama and, and Bush and all the other presidents that have led to the inflationary cost of things. That's where things lie. So yeah, 150 to for a room but you get to hear two great speakers for only 25 bucks.
- [62:00]
A
So it is true. Definitely do it he just lost all
- [62:06]
B
my support all day and Express in Charlestown.
- [62:09]
A
Yeah, so definitely do that. Yeah, we're gonna, it's gonna be a good time. Even if you just want to hang out with some fellow libertarians, we like everybody there, likes to talk politics. So if you want just want to get your fix of that, that'll be available as well. But yeah, so hit us up on Facebook, Instagram x lpwv.org info@lwv lpwv.org to communicate with Taylor Mountain Mount saylibertycastmail.com to talk about the podcast. If you have guest ideas or critiques, hit us up there. Other than that, until next time, don't hurt people and don't take their stuff.