Susan Jaffe

Summary

Podcast Summary: Moving Moments – Episode Featuring Susan Jaffe

Podcast Information:

• Title: Moving Moments
• Host/Author: Artful Narratives Media
• Description: Your ticket to candid conversations featuring the dance world's most accomplished and groundbreaking artists. Join Dean and Director of Dance at The Juilliard School, Alicia Graf Mack, as she sits down with her closest colleagues and friends to discuss the creative process and living a purposeful life in dance.
• Episode: Susan Jaffe
• Release Date: March 5, 2025

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1. Introduction

In the season finale of Moving Moments, host Alicia Graf Mack welcomes Susan Jaffe, an illustrious principal dancer with American Ballet Theatre (ABT) for 22 years and its current Artistic Director. The conversation delves into Susan’s multifaceted career, her resilience, creative philosophies, and her impactful return to ABT during a pivotal time for the company.

2. Susan Jaffe’s Background and Career Highlights

Susan Jaffe shares her extensive journey in dance, highlighting her tenure with ABT and her transition into various roles such as choreographer, teacher, director, and author. Her persistence and tenacity are identified as her greatest assets both on and off the stage.

“My biggest talent was perseverance. We have to figure out so many things on a day to day, minute to minute basis about our technique, interpretation, musicality, spatial awareness, et cetera, et cetera. And so that gives us all dancers perseverance.”
—Susan Jaffe [01:18]

3. The Importance of Perseverance in Dance

Alicia and Susan emphasize the critical role of perseverance in a dancer's life. Susan elaborates on how the daily demands of dance training foster resilience and grit, characteristics essential for success in the highly competitive dance world.

“I don't think it's any particular thing that I do, but I think that's very much a dancer thing that we have to figure out so many things on a day to day, minute to minute basis.”
—Susan Jaffe [02:35]

4. Early Life and Path to Dance

Susan recounts her upbringing in Bethesda, Maryland, where her parents encouraged all their children to learn musical instruments. However, her restless nature led her to dance as an outlet. Inspired by story ballets and classic tales like "Swan Lake" and "Cinderella," Susan pursued ballet, eventually attending a renowned ballet school that produced several principal dancers, including Julie Kent.

“I started dancing at the local YMCA... I wanted to do that because I was reading books like Swan Lake and Cinderella and things like that when I was a child.”
—Susan Jaffe [04:25]

5. Career Milestones and Influence of Mikhail Baryshnikov

At 16, Susan joined ABT’s Studio Company, moving to New York City to train under the guidance of Mikhail Baryshnikov. She shares her transformative experience auditioning for ABT, including the challenging requirement to lose weight and the emotional turmoil of losing her mother shortly before joining the company.

“I went to the audition, and at the end of that audition, this very large man, his name is Charles France... said, Mikhail Baryshnikov thinks you're very talented.”
—Susan Jaffe [08:09]

Susan discusses how Baryshnikov's mentorship shaped her career, grooming her and her peers to become the next generation of principals at ABT.

“He groomed a group of us to really sort of be the next generation of principal. And I was lucky enough to be one of them.”
—Susan Jaffe [12:01]

6. Transitioning from Performance to Teaching and Administration

Upon retiring from full-time dancing at ABT at age 40, Susan faced uncertainty about her next steps. She recounts a serendipitous meeting with ABT’s chairman, leading her to an advisory role. Initially hesitant, Susan discovered her passion for teaching, eventually becoming the Dean at the University of North Carolina School of the Arts and opening a dance school in Princeton, New Jersey.

“I just fell in love with teaching. I fell madly and deeply in love with teaching.”
—Susan Jaffe [19:07]

Susan reflects on the importance of saying "yes" to opportunities, even when the path isn’t clear, which led her to unexpected and fulfilling roles beyond performing.

7. Return to ABT as Artistic Director: Vision and Innovations

Susan’s return to ABT as Artistic Director coincided with the company’s efforts to recover post-pandemic. She emphasizes creating an inclusive environment where dancers feel supported and empowered to voice concerns without fear of retaliation. Susan aims to balance maintaining ABT’s classical and dramatic ballet excellence while fostering innovation and embracing contemporary choreographic talents.

“My job really is to serve the art form and to serve you... We're much more conscious. We're much more awake.”
—Susan Jaffe [28:36]

She highlights her commitment to ensuring ABT remains a place of innovation, reminiscent of its early days under Lucia Chase, while continuing to uphold high standards in classical ballet.

“ABT has always been a place of innovation... I want to expand us while still remaining ABT.”
—Susan Jaffe [31:21]

8. Personal Insights and Lessons

Throughout the conversation, Susan imparts valuable insights for aspiring dancers and artists. She underscores the significance of deep character research, emotional connection, and the transformative nature of performance—describing it as “riding the wave” where dancers become conduits for the story and music.

“The most important thing is to do as much of the research as possible... you become a vessel, you become a conduit for whatever that story is.”
—Susan Jaffe [15:57]

Susan also shares her philosophy on leadership and power dynamics, striving to foster a collaborative and supportive environment at ABT.

“Power means nothing if it's not in service. Otherwise, it's just ego.”
—Susan Jaffe [28:36]

9. Conclusion

The episode concludes with Alicia expressing admiration for Susan’s journey and her ongoing positive impact on the dance world. Susan reiterates the importance of perseverance, openness to new opportunities, and the value of saying "yes" to life's unpredictable paths.

“Sometimes you do something and you think, I have no idea why I'm doing this... but if you just continue doing it, it will lead to the next thing and the next thing.”
—Susan Jaffe [20:07]

Listeners are encouraged to follow Moving Moments on Instagram and the Artful Narratives Media website for future episodes and updates.

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Notable Quotes:

1. Susan Jaffe [01:18]: “My biggest talent was perseverance. We have to figure out so many things on a day to day, minute to minute basis about our technique, interpretation, musicality, spatial awareness, et cetera, et cetera. And so that gives us all dancers perseverance.”

2. Susan Jaffe [02:35]: “I don't think it's any particular thing that I do, but I think that's very much a dancer thing that we have to figure out so many things on a day to day, minute to minute basis.”

3. Susan Jaffe [08:09]: “I went to the audition, and at the end of that audition, this very large man, his name is Charles France... said, Mikhail Baryshnikov thinks you're very talented.”

4. Susan Jaffe [15:57]: “The most important thing is to do as much of the research as possible... you become a vessel, you become a conduit for whatever that story is.”

5. Susan Jaffe [28:36]: “Power means nothing if it's not in service. Otherwise, it's just ego.”

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Susan Jaffe’s episode on Moving Moments offers an inspiring look into the life of a dedicated artist who has navigated the challenges of the dance world with resilience and grace. Her insights provide valuable lessons for both seasoned dancers and those aspiring to enter the field.

Transcript

[Alicia Graf Mack]

Hey listeners, I hope you've been enjoying this third season of Moving Moments. Before we begin our final episode of the season, I want to thank you for your continued support and enthusiasm. We're busy cooking up more great ideas and interviews, so be sure you're following the podcast in the app you're listening to right now so you can get an alert when the next season drops. In the meantime, if you're new to the show, go back and check out some of our earlier episodes featuring Sarah Mearns, Misty Copeland, Kyle Abraham, Wendy Whelan, Bobbi Jean Smith, Oha Naharin, Judith Jamison, Michaela Mabenti Duprince, James Whiteside, Justin Peck, and so many more. And lastly, be sure to check us out on instagram @moving momentspodcast [e-mail] thanks again for listening and I hope you enjoy the season finale with Susan Jaffe.

[Susan Jaffe]

An illustrious principal dancer with American ballet theatre for 22 years, Susan Jaffe is now the Artistic Director of the internationally celebrated company. Susan credits her biggest talent on and off the stage to her persistence and tenacity.

My biggest talent was perseverance. We have to figure out so many things on a day to day, minute to minute basis about our technique, interpretation, musicality, spatial awareness, et cetera, et cetera. And so that gives us all dancers perseverance.

You're listening to Moving Moments, the podcast that explores the dance world's most accomplished and groundbreaking artists. I'm your host, Alicia Graf Mack Dean and Director of Dance at the Juilliard School. During each episode, you'll hear me talk with some of my closest friends and most trusted colleagues as we sit down.

[Alicia Graf Mack]

To hear about their creative process and.

[Susan Jaffe]

How they are changing the dance world on and off the stage.

[Alicia Graf Mack]

Susan, in your career you've had the opportunity to not only perform at the highest level, but you have been a choreographer, a teacher, a director, a children's book writer. You are goals to me, all that you have achieved and accomplished. If you could kind of look back and just give two or three sentences on how did you do it? How do you do it every day?

[Susan Jaffe]

I think for me, I always told my students when I was the Dean at the University of North Carolina School of the Arts that my biggest talent was perseverance. That was just the biggest thing that I noticed because I never stop. So I just figure it out and I think dancers are like that. I don't think it's any particular thing that I do, but I think that's very much a dancer thing that we have to figure out so many things on a day to day, minute to minute basis about our technique, interpretation, musicality, spatial awareness, et cetera, et cetera. And so. So that gives us all dancers perseverance. And the other thing that I have always done is I've never said no. I always say, yes, you want to try that? Yes. You know, it's always, yes, I want to try that. Why not? You know, we're living one life, and why not just try it? So oftentimes, I think that also has a little bit of magic in it.

[Alicia Graf Mack]

Which is just say yes, absolutely, and you see where the journey takes you. I so agree with that sentiment about dancers. I always say dancers do it better because inherent in our training is this grit. I love that word. Resilience. And perseverance. Because to do what we do on a daily basis, even from when you're little, just learning how to perfect a demi plie requires so much perseverance.

[Susan Jaffe]

Absolutely.

[Alicia Graf Mack]

So if you could tell us about your upbringing. I know you're from Maryland. I'm actually from Maryland as well. Oh, wonderful. I grew up in Columbia, Maryland. Yeah. If you could just give us a little idea about how you found yourself in motion.

[Susan Jaffe]

Mm. I grew up in Bethesda, Maryland, and my parents were not musical or were not in the theater, but they had all of the children learn a musical instrument. So I had two brothers. One was learning a violin, the other cello. I was learning piano. And I was very hyperactive, and I was very musical, but I couldn't sit at the piano. And I really was sort of bored with reading music. I liked to memorize it and then just play it so that reading didn't encumber me from just feeling the music. But it was very hard for me to sit still. And my. My mother was taking exercise classes across the street, and she said, would you like to take a dance class? And so I started dancing at the local ymca. The first year I was in a modern class, and then I saw the ballet, and I wanted to do that because I was reading books like Swan Lake and Cinderella and things like that when I was a child.

[Alicia Graf Mack]

You wanted to be the. The princess.

[Susan Jaffe]

Exactly. And so I went to the ballet class at the Y. And after the end of that year, that lady said, you know, you really should go to a real ballet school. So that's when I went two miles down the road and found a real ballet school. And that teacher was excellent. I mean, she created so many dancers around the country, principal dancers. Another one of the students who Was there was Julie Kent, for example, Cheryl Yeager. So there was. There was just this outpouring of principal dancers from that school. So we were very lucky because that teacher did a lot of performances for us. She created a lot of performances and story ballets for us. So that's why I was very attracted to the story ballet. When I came to New York, I wanted to go to American Ballet Theater because they had stories.

[Alicia Graf Mack]

And how did you find yourself in New York City? How did you make that leap from studying in Maryland to then coming in doing even more of the pre professional training?

[Susan Jaffe]

My teacher sat me down. She said, you know, I am excellent at teaching young ones. She actually hired a wonderful teacher for the older dancers. But my teacher also felt that I needed to be in a more competitive environment. And I was accepted into the studio company of American Ballet Theatre at the age of 16. And at that time, it was called Ballet Repertory Company. And so I moved up here. I lived on 66th Street, 67th street, with two other girls. One was a pianist at Juilliard. Yes. And one was a ballet dancer who was going to the Joffrey. And so the three of us lived in this little one bedroom. And at that time, ABT was on 61st and Broadway. So we just walked down. It was just super safe and easy. And then I did correspondence by mail, you know.

[Alicia Graf Mack]

So was it through professional children's school or a school in Maryland? How you feel?

[Susan Jaffe]

It was a school in Maryland. Yeah.

[Alicia Graf Mack]

Amazing.

[Susan Jaffe]

Yeah.

[Alicia Graf Mack]

Wow. And so I've learned that really it was Mikhail Baryshnikov that had such a transformative influence on your career and your journey. Can you talk about meeting him for the first time and how your relationship developed?

[Susan Jaffe]

Yeah, it was very interesting because I went to a big audition, actually. Misha had come to a A company class for the Studio Company ballet rep. And the rehearsal director came up to me and she said, misha thinks you're very talented. And I remember thinking, how is that possible? Because I felt sort of overlooked for those two years. And she wants you to go to the audition. So I went to the audition, and at the end of that audition, this very large man, his name is Charles France, he's passed now. He was Misha's assistant, and he came up to me and he said, mikhail Baryshnikov thinks you're very talented. However, you're going to have to lose 10 pounds. Over the summer, it was a very different world, a very different world than it is now. I mean, now, you know, we recognize the danger of that in speaking to young people who are going through hormonal changes, et cetera, et cetera. But at that time, nobody really understood that. So they sent me to a diet doctor and I had to come in on a weekly basis. They didn't weigh me, but, you know, Charles had to eyeball me to see if I was getting smaller. It was a very.

[Alicia Graf Mack]

What was your diet? What did your diet consist of?

[Susan Jaffe]

Oh, they put me on things like liver and onions and it was really just disgusting. Jello for dessert. It was really, you know, for a 16 year old, that was. That was a lot.

[Alicia Graf Mack]

I can imagine.

[Susan Jaffe]

But this wasn't really, you know, Misha wasn't involved at all. This was Charles. And Charles really acted more on his own accord. I don't even know if Misha even knew what was going on, to be honest. So I did lose enough. Not the whole 10, but I lost enough to get into the company. There was a very sad thing that happened just before I joined. My mother passed away in July, and I joined in August. August. So it was a very tough time. And we were 890 Broadway, 19th street, where we are now in the Michael Bennett building, was still being built. APT had bought three floors or two floors, two or three floors. And we're still renovating and building them. And so we were in City center for a while and I was getting a lot of really good parts and I was even dancing with Misha. And I just didn't say anything. I just went in the studio and did whatever I had to do. And so it was a very, very tough time because I think a lot of people think, oh, I've been here for a long time, I deserve the role. And then who is this young whippersnapper coming in and taking soloist roles, principal roles? And that was the way Misha wanted to bring people up. He wanted, you know, where he grew up in Russia. He or he grew up in Latvia, but he went to ballet school in Russia. That's what they did. They groomed the principals from when they were very young. And so it really. So he groomed a group of us to really sort of be the next generation of principal. And I was lucky enough to be one of them. And not all of us survived, but I did. And, yeah, the rest, you know, is history again. It's the perseverance. It's the, you know, I'm going to fall down 10 times and get up 11 times, and that's, that's the way I function.

[Alicia Graf Mack]

Yeah, I enjoyed following you and watching you and seeing where your star was rising. There were ballerinas that we all looked up to, and you were definitely one of those people. And it's really amazing to continue to look up to you now as you're moving through your life and having such a positive impact on so many people. I always ask the guests on this show if you can tell us one of your moving moments on stage, one of those memories of being on stage and performing that you will never forget.

[Susan Jaffe]

Actually, extreme athletes or daredevils have this experience. I think there's a book called the Rise of Superman, I believe. And it's about people sort of addicted to doing things like jumping off a cliff on a motorcycle that just daredevil things. And they talk about when they get to those moments of extreme, they get extremely connected to a much deeper part of them, a much more, in some ways, spiritual. And when I was on stage, I call it riding the wave. You know, when you're on a boogie board or whatever and you're on top of the wave, and the wave just takes you, and you're just having so much fun, and it takes no energy, but you are just experiencing this power behind you and thrusting you forward. And I had that one time in a Swan Lake performance, I remember before I went out there, I was walking through the principal hallway at the Met, and Martine Van Hamel said to me, have fun. And I said, thank you, I will. And she stopped and she turned around, she said, you're really gonna have fun? And I said, yeah, I actually feel like I'm gonna have fun. It's just. It's just because it's such a hard role, it's really nail biting. So I went out there and I felt like I was being danced like I was a conduit for this character, this universal story, these steps, the music. It was one of the most amazing experiences of my life. Not to say that I didn't have other moments like that also in other ballets, but that's the one that sticks out the most for me.

[Alicia Graf Mack]

Amazing. I think as performers, we all understand what that high is, and I think that is also why we are so persistent, is because it doesn't happen all the time. And you don't know when it's going to happen.

[Susan Jaffe]

You don't.

[Alicia Graf Mack]

So you seek that, you know, you keep going out there again and again, trying to seek that moment where you completely lose yourself.

[Susan Jaffe]

Yes.

[Alicia Graf Mack]

I love that.

[Susan Jaffe]

And when I talk to dancers, when I'm coaching them, I really emphasize, like, for example, in a character in a ballet where you are a character, you're a human or whatever, a swan, whatever it is you are, that the most important thing is to do as much of the research as possible so that when you go out on stage, you become a vessel, you become a conduit for whatever that story is, whoever that character is. And that if you actually get to that point where you've done the character a few times, if you've done your work, the character actually starts to inform you on a deeper level who she or they are. And that is, as you know, as an artist, that's the most satisfying thing is when you're in such deep listening, you've done all the work, you let it go, and you're in such a deep listening state that you learn so much more about the character or the ballet or whatever it is.

[Alicia Graf Mack]

When I listen to you, it sounds like you're such a natural teacher giver, for sure. I wonder, when you were preparing to transition from full time dancing, retiring from abt, did you have clarity about what you were going to do next?

[Susan Jaffe]

No.

[Alicia Graf Mack]

So what happened and how did you figure out what your next step would be?

[Susan Jaffe]

I'm going to talk about this story, but I don't recommend it. What I knew was it was time to leave, and so I just followed that. I honored that. That's how I felt on the inside and that it was time to leave, but I had no idea. But all I knew was that I had to leave and so I had to get off the stage. I had to. I had to transition. And I was thinking, you know, I'm smart. You know, I'm. At the time, I was 40 years old. I'm young, I'm smart, I can have a whole other life and I'll figure it out. And so two weeks after I retired, I was asked to go to a party for ABT in California. And the new chairman of the board was wealthy and he had a private jet. And he asked me and several other board members if we wanted to take a ride out there with him. So I met the chairman and we just really connected on so many levels. We both love the Mayan culture. And we were just going back and forth about. I just. And by the end of that trip, he said, you know, I'm brand new in this job as chairman. I know very little about dance. Would you like to come on and be my advisor?

[Alicia Graf Mack]

Wow.

[Susan Jaffe]

And I said, let me think about that. Okay, Right. I just said yes. And I had no, but I just said yes. And there I was learning. I was in meetings I was in board meetings. I was the point person of things. I had no idea, but I was learning. Email. It was just such a strange and new world. And I did that for a few years. But also I didn't want to teach at the time. So this was actually something that I do believe. I'm a gifted teacher, gifted coach, but, but I didn't at the time think that I had the right feeling for it. So I said, no, no, no. I'm actually quite self centered. Everything is really about me. It's my massage, my physical therapy, I need to read. I, I, I, I, I. When I had left dancing for about six months, I started to realize, wait a minute, it's not all about me. I had to do that to get on stage. But now I don't have the stage. And suddenly it became so satisfying to help other people. And so I was asked to teach at the JKO at that time School of abt and I found like, wow, you know, I was so analytical as a dancer. I really liked to be very. They used to joke I was sort of crunchy granola. I didn't like to be misplaced. Everything had to be bone on top of bone. And I really analyzed it and luckily I had a really long career without any major injuries. So because I had done all that analyzing on my own body, it was very easy for me to see what was happening to a young person. So I just fell in love with teaching. I fell madly and deeply in love with teaching. And so six months later opened a dance school in Princeton, New Jersey. I just say yes, you know, so that's why I say I don't recommend. I can't decide whether I'm super courageous. I am. Or I'm just a little bit stupid. No.

[Alicia Graf Mack]

Can I say this? I think people who have great energy, who put in the work, who do their homework, who, who really love the things that they're doing, attract those opportunities. So even though you landed in those places, I feel like you have this magnetism that the opportunities came to you and the right ones, you know, to keep you going.

[Susan Jaffe]

They were, I feel very grateful for all of that. But all of that led me to coaching and to going to the university to be the dean there and teaching and staging. And I want to say this to all young people. Sometimes you do something and you think, I have no idea why I'm doing this. Right. This is so random. And then if you just continue doing it, it will lead to the next thing and the next thing and the next thing and then I look back and I think I had to do all of those things in order to be where I am today. And so that's why. Yeah. The word yes is. Is very important.

[Alicia Graf Mack]

And you went on then to be the dean at North Carolina School for the Arts as well.

[Susan Jaffe]

Yeah.

[Alicia Graf Mack]

What did you learn there? What did you learn about the students, how they learned, this generation of artists?

[Susan Jaffe]

Yeah. Well, you know, I think with me, with young people, it's impossible to assume that they can learn the way you want to teach them. Right. I wanted to understand the best way to teach them. And I learned that some are auditory, some are kinesthetic, some are visual. You know, I feel very wistful when I think about my time at the University of North Carolina School of the Arts. I had such a wonderful time with them and with my faculty and the other deans, and it's just. It was a wonderful environment to be in.

[Alicia Graf Mack]

And then you transitioned then back into the professional world with Pittsburgh Ballet Theater for some time and then. Wow, AVT moving back to your home.

[Susan Jaffe]

Yes.

[Alicia Graf Mack]

Can you talk about the process of even thinking about coming back? I'm sure there was some sort of vetting, interview process. What was going through your mind about returning to ABT and when you learned you would be the next artistic Director following Kevin McKenzie?

[Susan Jaffe]

Yeah, well, I was pretty settled in Pittsburgh. You know, I. I was really enjoying. It was a 30 dancer company, so I was really enjoying that. But I really went further out into the contemporary world, too, in our programming. And I also had, for example, one whole season with just women choreographers. So that was really fun. And we had five seasons, so it was just easy to program. And I had heard that the directorship of ABT was up. And at that time I was looking for a house or I was looking at a house. And it was a beautiful house. It was a house right on the Allegheny River. I had a big deck overseeing the river and grass and trees. I had a fireplace. I had three floors. I had so much storage, and I was literally a bridge across from pbt. And I was just living my best life. And so it came time for me to purchase this house and the job had come up. The search firm called me and said, you know, would you like to interview? And here's one of my things that I always say to myself. I never want my gravestone to say. I wonder what would have happened if I had only. I thought, you know what? I'm just going to purchase this house because I have no idea what's going to happen in the Future, and I'm not banking on it. So I'm just going to live my life. So I did, and I loved that house. And the search firm called me October, and then they didn't call me again until January. Whoa. So I thought, well, I guess they moved on, you know, here I am in my house, my fireplace, and they called me in January. So it was a little bit shocking. And I had decided, because I didn't have all stakes in the game, like, I was fine with whatever was going to be the outcome, that I was just going to be as truthful as possible, that I was just going to share my thoughts about what needed improvement, what's really great, you know, what I think should happen going forward. And sometimes I would get off an interview and I would think, oh, boy, well, I lost the job right there because I was just way too honest, you know, not mean, but just honest. I guess that worked. And so it had been a month and a half since my last interview. No more. Yeah, I think it was February when I went to come here in person to speak to them, and it was middle to end of April when they reached back out to me. And so I had no attachment. I wasn't biting my nails, waiting for an answer. I was perfectly content where I was. There was this one morning where a friend of mine forwarded me an article by Sarah Kaufman from the Washington Post where the writer was saying, no, it should be Misty Copeland. It should be Stella Abrera.

[Alicia Graf Mack]

I remember this article.

[Susan Jaffe]

Yeah. And I wrote back to my friend and I said, you know what abt needs to do what they need to do, you know what's best for ABT. That's what I want. And at 9:04 in the morning, I got in the car. The phone rings inside the car. I answer the phone and the person says, hi, this is Michael from the search firm. And I'm thinking he's just going to say, you know, ABT has decided to go in another direction. And he said, and I just want you to know that you're the one. And I just. I just. Yeah, that's exactly how I responded. I just started, you know, screaming, and there were a few tears, and I thought, oh, my gosh. Yeah, it's time to go home. I know ABT so well. I know our history, I know our standards. I know the way we work. I know how stressful it can be getting ready to do 15 ballets in two weeks. I mean, I just knew it all. And I just felt like, wow, I really am equipped. I had so Much experience behind me. And being a dean, too, I did a lot of administration. I learned how to work with people. I learned how to lead. I had learned how to negotiate. There's so much as you know that you learn as a dean.

[Alicia Graf Mack]

This reminds me of the saying that we always said at Ailey, nothing to prove, only to share.

[Susan Jaffe]

Yes.

[Alicia Graf Mack]

And it sounds like you were in that nothing to prove moment. And I know you assumed the company really coming out of the pandemic and trying to bring a resurgence to the company in so many ways. I think about the. The health and mental health of the dancers and then just financial health of the organization and all the things. And you stepped in at this watershed moment. I read a quote in the Times that talked about how you wanted to think creatively kind of outside of the box. This was a new moment so we could approach it in a new way. And what were your ideas and what are your ideas about how you'd like to move the company forward in a new way?

[Susan Jaffe]

That's a great question. I mean, one of the things. I grew up under a very different power dynamic. You know, where it was, the artistic director is the power, and you can't question, and you can't. And I was having this conversation with our dancers advisory committee, and I said, look, I said, I can't be helpful if I don't know if there's a problem. And if there's a problem, somebody, one of you needs to come and speak up. And you cannot be afraid of retaliation, because I am not here for power. I don't need it. In the only way that I have, quote, unquote, power is to make the final decision and we move forward. Right. And that's not always easy. It's not like it's all fun and games. It's not. Sometimes you have to make very difficult decisions, but you have to feel like what's the best for the organization. Right. So I said, you know, my job really is to serve the art form and to serve you, because if you're good, everything else is good. You know, if you're feeling good about what you're doing, and we're here to give that to you, but we're here in service and not here for power. Power means nothing if it's not in service. Right. Otherwise, it's just ego. So I'm really trying to make sure that that power dynamic from the past isn't there. So that's one. It's a very different world now. We're much more conscious. We're much more awake. So I want to make sure that everybody feels included, that every everybody feels loved and supported and moving forward so that we all have a hand healthy environment. And then the other thing, I want to make sure that we are doing classical ballet and dramatic ballet at the highest level and we will always do that. That's who we are. But ABT has always been a place of innovation. Back when Lucia Chase started that company, There was Agnes DeMille, there was Anthony Tudor. There were so many choreographers doing new work. Right. Innovation. And I remember I was reading something that when example Jerry Robbins choreographed Fancy Free on ABT and there was something like a 20 minute curtain call. Yeah. And when Anthony Tudor came, it changed the way people saw dance. I want to expand us while still remaining abt. Yeah.

[Alicia Graf Mack]

Amazing. There's just some super people in the world and you are definitely one of them. Thank you. You wear the cape beautifully with the tiara and all. Thank you. Thank you so much for sitting with me today. I know our listeners are really going to enjoy this conversation.

[Susan Jaffe]

Thank you so much and thank you for all your beautiful questions.

I hope you enjoyed this episode of Moving Moments.

[Alicia Graf Mack]

If you like what you heard, please.

[Susan Jaffe]

Tell your friends about it.

[Alicia Graf Mack]

Spread the word.

[Susan Jaffe]

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