Dark Magic Who Shall Not Be Named (HBP Chapter 23, 'Horcruxes')

Summary

MuggleCast Episode Summary

Podcast: MuggleCast: The Harry Potter Re-Read Podcast
Episode: Dark Magic Who Shall Not Be Named (HBP Chapter 23, "Horcruxes")
Date: April 29, 2026
Host Panel: Laura, Eric, Micah, with guest Rachel

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Episode Overview

This episode dives into Chapter 23 ("Horcruxes") of Harry Potter and the Half-Blood Prince, examining the pivotal moments when Dumbledore reveals the unedited Slughorn memory, giving crucial insight into Voldemort and the making of Horcruxes. The hosts dissect the motivations and actions of Slughorn, Tom Riddle, and Dumbledore, muse on the ethics of teaching dark magic at Hogwarts, and unravel how Harry’s “power of love” forms the heart of the series’ conclusion. The group is joined by guest Rachel, who brings a fresh Ravenclaw perspective to this dense and dark chapter.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Remembering the Debate: Was Harry a Horcrux?

• [06:39] Micah recalls his first realization that Harry might be a Horcrux, reflecting on how this theory sparked fierce debate in the fandom pre-Deathly Hallows:

  "This never crossed my mind that in reading this that Harry would be a Horcrux. But reading these actual lines now, it's like, how could I have not thought that?"

• [06:56] Micah: "...friendships were broken over that."

2. The Slughorn Files: What Slughorn Actually Hid

• [07:39] Laura coins the real memory as the "Slughorn Files, the unredacted version."
• Slughorn not only tried to hide his explanation of Horcruxes to Tom Riddle but also his encouragement of Riddle's ambitions.
• [08:50] Laura: "I had forgotten...Slughorn is buttering Tom up and suggesting he'll use his connections at the Ministry to get Tom the Minister's position in 15 years time."
• [09:05] Eric emphasizes Slughorn’s shame and his role as an unwitting pawn, manipulated by Riddle’s flattery.

3. Slughorn’s Pride and Shame

• [10:16] Rachel wonders if Slughorn’s behavior toward rising students changed post-Tom Riddle, or if he still promoted students, perhaps more cautiously.
• [11:17] Group discusses how Slughorn’s fondness for being the "kingmaker" made him more vulnerable.

4. Who’s Responsible—Slughorn or Riddle?

• [13:13] Eric: "Riddle already knows all about Horcruxes. He already knows what they are. What Riddle wants to know is what would happen if you made seven."
• [13:50] Micah: "The crime is…the withholding of information." Suggests Riddle would have found the info elsewhere, but Slughorn is guilty of being easily flattered and manipulated—skills Riddle refined and used on many.

5. The Slug Club, Manipulation, and Grooming?

• [17:16] Micah: "Is Slughorn the wizarding world equivalent of a groomer?"
• [18:08] Eric: Warns against over-ascribing intentions, but notes that Slughorn's self-serving networking still benefits his own reputation above all.

6. Should Hogwarts Teach about Horcruxes?

• [21:29] Laura: Raises questions on when Dumbledore’s fierce ban on Horcruxes was enacted—possibly due to his complex past with Grindelwald.
• [25:05] Micah: "I don't think it should be banned because inevitably when you ban something, we all know what happens anyway....just mentioning it as this dark artifact that can contain a person’s soul, there's nothing wrong with that."
• [26:16] Rachel: Adds that basic awareness, not the how-to, should be taught, at least so students can identify and protect against them.
• [26:39] Eric: Compares knowledge of Horcruxes to bomb-making ("you don’t have them do that as a class").

7. Horcruxes in Wizarding History: Ancient Roots

• [23:03] Rachel/ Eric: Speculates on Herpo the Foul and ancient Egyptian connections, noting Herpo being the first known Horcrux creator and drawing parallels to ancient immortality lore.

8. Dumbledore, the Hallows, and Omitted Truths

• [32:13] Micah: "Little Hallows Happy was Albus Dumbledore having two of the three Deathly Hallows in his possession?...Dumbledore fails to mention in this moment that the ring is not Just a Horcrux. He withholds that information."

• [33:42] Laura: Suggests Voldemort wouldn’t care about the Resurrection Stone aspect, as love and loss were never his motivators.

• [34:09] Classic moment (Repeated from opening): "Dumbledore could have just said to Harry, hey, can I borrow your cloak for a second? And then dipped off. And he would have lived forever." — Micah (34:09)

• [34:19] Eric: "All three Hallows are potentially in that office. In that office, right? In this chapter. That's wild, because Dumbledore has the Elder Wand. He does. He has the stone and Harry has the cloak."

9. The Nature of Harry’s "Power"

• [38:52] Laura: Shifts from the cliché of "power of love" to the more nuanced point:

  "It’s his ability to love, despite the close mind connection he shares with Voldemort …Harry still has the capacity to love. And he has these extra weapons that make it so Voldemort up until this point wasn’t able to touch him."

• [39:52] Rachel (quoting Dumbledore, 39:52):

  "Voldemort himself created his worst enemy, just as tyrants everywhere do...he not only handpicked the man most likely to finish him, he handed him uniquely deadly weapons."

• [41:54] Eric: Critiques Dumbledore's classic chess master tactics and reveals that Dumbledore gives Harry only a fraction of the truth, maintaining the appearance of choice:

  "By not telling Harry that...he's giving Harry the illusion of choice that makes Harry feel like it makes all the difference..."

10. Can Voldemort Feel When Horcruxes are Destroyed?

• [43:47] Micah: "It’s highly unlikely Voldemort feels anything when one of his Horcruxes is destroyed…I did enjoy the movie’s take on this more than the way that it’s written…"
• [44:49] Laura: Explores how splitting the soul so many times leaves the original so weakened, any connection to the other pieces may be all but lost.

11. What Ifs: Dumbledore, Kreacher, and the Locket

• [36:51] Rachel: Considers how the story would change if Dumbledore had discovered the locket’s secret through Kreacher, highlighting small decisions with big consequences.

12. Lighthearted Closer: Horcruxes as a Subscription Service!

• [46:06] Horcrux tagline challenge:

  • Eric: “Having the last laugh, guaranteed.”
  • Micah: “Death is outdated. Upgrade your experience.”
  • Laura: “Be your best self forever. Family plans start at just 12.99 a month.”
  • Rachel: “Kill once. Live forever. It’ll feel so, so good.”

  [47:41] Patrons submitted their own hilarious takes, including “Immortality now in a convenient monthly fragments. Just 666,” and “Split your soul to keep you whole.”

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• [34:09] Micah:

  “Dumbledore could have just said to Harry, hey, can I borrow your cloak for a second? And then dipped off. And he would have lived forever.”

• [39:52] Rachel (quoting Dumbledore):

  “Voldemort himself created his worst enemy, just as tyrants everywhere do...he not only handpicked the man most likely to finish him, he handed him uniquely deadly weapons.”

• [41:54] Eric:

  “By not telling Harry that...he's giving Harry the illusion of choice that makes Harry feel like it makes all the difference in the world for him to choose to go after Voldemort.”

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Important Segment Timestamps

• [06:39] — Revisiting fandom debates about Harry being a Horcrux
• [07:39] — Deep dive into original Slughorn memory
• [13:13] — Parsing exactly what Slughorn actually revealed (and Riddle’s real aim)
• [17:16] — Is Slughorn’s behavior more than just networking? ("groomer" discussion)
• [21:29] — Should Horcrux knowledge be banned at Hogwarts?
• [32:13] — All three Hallows, together in the same room!
• [36:51] — Speculation: How much did Kreacher or Sirius potentially affect the hunt for Horcruxes?
• [39:52] — Dumbledore’s critical explanation: how Voldemort “created his own demise”
• [41:54] — Dumbledore’s grand manipulation and withholding of the "true" prophecy meaning
• [46:06] — Horcruxes as a subscription service: hilarious tagline responses

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Closing Notes

• Next episode: Chapter 24, "Sectumsempra"
• Guest Rachel: Follow her on Instagram at @themenuscript and listen to themenuscript podcast for more literary discussions.
• Quizzitch & Community: Engaging trivia questions and community answers, including the Horcrux tagline contest.

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This episode is a must-listen for fans who enjoy not just recaps but in-depth ethical, literary, and “what if” discussions around one of the Harry Potter series’ darkest and most complex chapters.

Transcript

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[Laura]

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[Rachel]

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[Rachel]

Work your magic.

[Micah]

Dumbledore could have just said to Harry, hey, can I borrow your cloak for a second? And then dipped off and he would have lived forever. He wouldn't have died.

[Eric]

All three of the Hallows are potentially

[Micah]

in are in that office.

[Eric]

In that office right in this chapter.

[Laura]

Welcome to mugglecast, your weekly ride into the world of Harry Potter. I'm Laura.

[Eric]

I'm Eric.

[Micah]

And I'm Micah.

[Laura]

And we're your Harry Potter friends talking about the books, movies and upcoming TV show. Be sure to follow us in your podcast app so you never miss an episode. This week, get ready with us for the worst scavenger hunt ever because we're discussing chapter 23 of Half Blood Prince Horcruxes. But first, we have a guest on this week's show. Rachel, welcome to the pod. You're a podcaster yourself, isn't that right?

[Rachel]

Yes. Hi. So it is very exciting to be here. I do have a podcast, it is coming called the menuscript. So I do talk about any books except for horror and food, but I can't do a book podcast without featuring Harry Potter episodes. So have quite a few of those. Actually, Laura and I did one on Order of the Phoenix that by the time this episode is live, will be out and about on all of the podcast platforms.

[Laura]

Yeah, we had a really great discussion and we'll be sure to promote that on socials when it comes out. Rachel, could we also get your fandom id?

[Rachel]

Absolutely. So my favorite book is a tie between Prisoner of Azkaban and Half Blood Prince. My favorite movie is Sorcerer's Stone. My house is I am a proud Ravenclaw and my patronus is a dolphin. And I think that my favorite Horcrux, which was the only thing in this fandom ID list I had never been asked before, is the diary.

[Laura]

Rachel, we're really excited to have you today. You and I had a great discussion about Order of the Phoenix, so I know that we're going to have a really, really great discussion, and I'm glad to have you on the panel with us this week. But before we continue, if you love Mugglecast as much as Voldemort loves turning his jewelry into soul backups, we we invite you to Support [e-mail] Milecast we'll hook you up with bonus episodes of the show ad free episodes, live streams, a monthly Zoom hangout, and lots more. We can't do this without you, so thank you in advance. Thank you to our recent patrons, including Nicole, Jess, Christy, Alexis, Caitlin, Emily, Ilona, and Jack. And speaking of bonus Muggle cast, Micah, what disturbing idea did you come up with for bonus Mogulcast this week?

[Micah]

Well, I think Andrew is actually going to be disappointed in missing out on this one because we are, in a way keeping with the Horcrux theme, and we're going to talk a lot about Horcruxes in this particular chapter, but also going to tie it a little bit to the Harry Potter TV show. So we are all able to to give the Harry Potter TV show license to change one major character death. So in this scenario, you can either kill a character that doesn't die in the books and movies or give one character a reprieve, but in doing so, you have to kill another in their place. So we're gonna. We're gonna put our skills to the test, I guess.

[Laura]

Okay, very exciting. We're going to see how creative we are for changing major character deaths.

[Micah]

And it's got a little bit of a caveat to it, which is think about how this decision makes the story stronger, not necessarily happier or sadder, I guess, depending on.

[Eric]

Yeah, yeah.

[Micah]

Andrew loves to joke about making Horcruxes, so I thought that he would be disappointed to miss this week's bonus Muggle cast. But I believe he is off taking over for Tim Cook. Is that correct?

[Eric]

That's right, yeah. He finally got asked. It's a dream job.

[Laura]

I didn't know about that. Well, cool, Andrew. Thanks for ditching us to go do that. There are other great ways to support us and help run this indie pod. You can leave us a review in your favorite podcast app, you can tell a fellow Muggle about our show, and you can visit mugglecast merch.com to buy shirts, hats, glassware and more. And we're going to kick this week's discussion off as usual with our mugglecast Pensieve segment.

[Eric]

Yeah, we last talked about this chapter, Chapter 23 Horcruxes, almost exactly seven years ago, way back on episode 414 of Mugglecast, which came out April 22, 2019. I'm just blown away by we were talking about the same chapter, same seven years ago today. What you're looking at are memories. This is the most important memory I've collected. It is from mugucast episode 414.

[Micah]

This is where it just clicked for me. And I'll be honest, I don't remember from the first read through. And this never crossed my mind that in reading this that Harry would be a Horcrux. But reading these actual lines now, it's like, how could I have not thought that?

[Laura]

Yeah, right.

[Micah]

Remember, it was a huge debate leading up to book seven. Like friendships were broken over that.

[Eric]

We can name specific ones.

[Micah]

No.

[Eric]

Yeah.

[Micah]

Personally, I never cared for the debate. I was just like, look, whatever happened, books were sold on it.

[Eric]

Yeah. I mean, potentially New York Times best selling books were sold on it.

[Laura]

This memory is everything. What book were we talking about there?

[Eric]

We're talking about mogglenet.com's what will happen in Harry Potter, book seven, who lived, who Died, who Falls in Love and how the Adventure Will Finally End by Ben Shane and Emerson Sparts.

[Laura]

And nobody else.

[Eric]

And nobody else.

[Laura]

And nobody else. Anyway, well, this chapter we're actually getting the Slughorn Files. I'm calling this the Slughorn Files, the unredacted version. Because we finally get the real untampered with Slughorn memory and we get to see the contents of it. I thought something. An interesting place for us to start is with what exactly it was Slughorn was trying to cover up. We know the main focus is that he was trying to cover up telling Tom Riddle about Horcruxes and how they work. But something I had forgotten about is that in addition to that, he's also trying to cover up having Given Tom Riddle encouragement to become Minister of Magic one day. So in the tampered memory, when the scene goes foggy, Slughorn says in an unnaturally loud voice, you'll go wrong, boy. Mark my words. But in the real version, Slughorn is buttering Tom up and suggesting he'll use his connections at the Ministry to get Tom the Minister's position in 15 years time. He also says, you'll go far, Tom. I've never been wrong about a student.

[Eric]

Yet this feels wrong.

[Rachel]

Wrong?

[Eric]

Nope.

[Laura]

Right, Rachel.

[Eric]

I mean, after all, he who Must

[Laura]

Not Be Named did great things.

[Eric]

Terrible.

[Laura]

Yeah, pretty great.

[Eric]

It shows that Slughorn, who has hidden and kept and kind of hoarded the key crucial piece of knowledge that completely unravels Voldemort. All this time he's kept it to himself, but largely out of. I think what is pretty clear is shame for how much he was duped, for how fond he was of young Tom Riddle, of how young Tom Riddle was through Harry's eyes, able to lay on the flattery in such an effective way that you not only get the information from him that he's seeking, but, but also all of this praise that makes all the other boys in the room jealous and like, you know, admire Tom more. So the, the thoroughness in which Slughorn was played like a fiddle, I think is, is what largely makes Slughorn mostly the most ashamed out of all of this. And that's why he not only edited the do I tell him about Horcruxes or not, but the lead up as well, where he's being like complimentary to Tom.

[Rachel]

It makes me wonder like how much, because we know that by the time Lily was in Hogwarts, Slughorn was still. He like had his slug club and was promoting students even after being so, so wrong about someone. So I wonder if he was still offering like to connect people higher up or if he was more like keeping connections, trying to keep people close that he could then reach out to if they become successful and good.

[Eric]

Like, oh, on their own.

[Rachel]

You know what I'm.

[Eric]

I like that. I like this question as to whether the sort of rise of Voldemort was causing him to rethink like, and actually change his behavior around promoting students.

[Rachel]

Yeah, yeah, because he clearly still like was seeking people out. But like, I just wonder if he was going about it differently or you know, in a much hopefully lower key scale. Like if any of the us or listeners have ever maybe like put in a reference to someone for a job or you know, kind of stuck, not stuck your neck Out. But, like, put in a good word and then, like, you're sort of on the. The string too, if it turns out to go, like, really badly or.

[Eric]

Yeah, yeah. Well, knowing Slughorn, he probably was in quite a bit of, like, deniability and quite a bit of, like, almost like a fugue state about the whole Voldemort thing. So I. I'm guessing he probably went on business as usual trying to ignore that one time where he had one student that he wasn't particularly correct about or. Or worse.

[Micah]

But he still went on to do great things, just not in the way that Slughorn hoped.

[Eric]

Right.

[Micah]

To. To your point earlier, Eric, and it's funny, when you said shame earlier, it just caused these visions for me of Horus, Slughorn, walking through King's Landing with shame. Shame.

[Laura]

And.

[Micah]

And it's what a vision that would be.

[Eric]

It's its own punishment, kind of, you know, knowing that you are maybe the reason Lord Voldemort, the darkest wizard of all time, has been so successful.

[Rachel]

Speaking of Slughorn's flaws, we know he is very prideful. And so what you just said about, like, having this thought of, was I. The reason that Voldemort came to be, like, is he prideful enough that he really could believe that? Like, if he. If he never gave Tom that information, I have to believe Tom would have found it some other way.

[Laura]

Like, I agree.

[Rachel]

Like, I don't think Lord Voldemort rose because Slughorn gave him Horcrux information. But I could see Slughorn believing Lord Voldemort came to power because he gave him information.

[Eric]

Yeah, yeah. I mean, it's very clear from the

[Rachel]

memory, very anti Slughorn here. I'm not. I'm not trying to.

[Eric]

No, no, no. It's very clear from the. This chapter that Riddle already knows all about Horcruxes. He already knows what they are. So when he asked Slughorn what they are, Slughorn's not telling him anything he doesn't know. What Riddle wants to know is what would happen if you made seven. And so there's a lot that we can't pin on Slughorn. But Slughorn had this key piece of information, which is that as far as Dumbledore knows, if Dumbledore is to be believed, there's no wizard that's ever done it more than once. Slughorn is the key piece of. Not only was Tom Riddle looking to make a Horcrux, but he was trying to make seven of them. And that is huge.

[Micah]

To me. The crime is. Is the withholding of information. It's not that he told him about these Horcruxes, which he otherwise, I agree, would have found out about in some way, shape or form. And I do think, inasmuch as Tom can look up to somebody, part of him does look up to Slughorn. Slughorn's not only his Potions Master, he's his Head of House. And he's looking for confirmation of what a Horcrux is, how it can be made from. I don't want to say somebody that he idolizes, because I don't really think he idolized very many people. But I do believe, and I wanted to ask this question, that Tom could have possibly learned some of his less than wholesome skills from observing Slughorn in the way that he brought together the Slug Club and how he was able to be so easily subjected to flattery. We see Tom use this on other people in other memories. And I just think there's something about Slughorn that Tom likes and wants to emulate.

[Eric]

It's on a spectrum. I mean, I think Slughorn doesn't care. Care about people as much as somebody, like maybe Harry cares about his friendships. Right. Slughorn wants to collect people, which is slightly dehumanizing. But also Slughorn does care about his ability to get people ahead. So I think Slughorn has a lot more care for his pupils than Riddle has for literally any other human being. But not as much as most people would say counts as, like, friendship or care. So I think Tom relates to Slughorn's managing of people as objects or managing of people as means to an end. Even though Slughorn, again, is at the very small end of the spectrum compared to where Tom is.

[Laura]

Yeah. I think Slughorn is also just easily accessible to Tom. He's kind of like the weak link here in a way where I agree with Rachel that I. I don't think if Slughorn had withheld this information, I don't think that Tom Riddle would have been like, okay, I guess my plans for world domination are kaput. Then I think he would have still figured it out. But he definitely makes it easier for Tom to do what he wants to do. And that's because he's so susceptible to flattery. It's the same type of flattery that we see doesn't work on Dumbledore. So Tom, I think, just has a really good second sense for when he's gonna be able to manipulate somebody. Cause we see it with multiple other characters too. Right.

[Eric]

Yeah. What I really appreciate about this chapter is Harry's insight into what's going on in Tom's head. Uh, Harry obviously knows Tom Riddle pretty well. Um, and he's able to see. It's like, oh, Harry could tell that Riddle had possibly been working up to this moment for weeks. You know, and it's just like that level of insight doesn't just come off the page like Harry knows, because Harry

[Micah]

has been doing very much the same thing.

[Eric]

Right, yeah, that there's a line about that. It's like Harry's often had to weed information out of people. And he says this was definitely done. And I'm like, well, I'm trying to come up with a time when he needed information that people wouldn't give him. Usually he asks and he's Harry Potter, so people just tell him, but I'll go with it.

[Micah]

One other thing I just wanted to ask about Slughorn. His character, as was brought up, does come to the forefront very much in this chapter. And look, people can change, but it doesn't seem like he's changed all that much over the years since this memory occurred. And this conversation leading up to the Horcruxes feels very, and I thought a lot about the right word to use here and I came up with unsanitary. The other boys in the room are laughing and they're tittering. And Slughorn has this comment about Tom's careful flattery of people who matter. Not just people, but people who matter. And it made me wonder, is Slughorn the wizarding world equivalent of a groomer?

[Eric]

I think we have to be careful.

[Micah]

Humor maybe a very strong word.

[Eric]

But to what end? Yeah, like, I think we have to be very careful about, like, what Slughorn ultimately is promising these kids. You know, he's like fast tracking their careers or something. And I don't think that that counts as something on tour that you would say somebody's grooming. But Slughorn does center himself in all of his relationships, Right? So he's the guy who can get you there. And I think that element of it is self serving and is, you know, he likes to feel important and he's passed on that on to the kids. But in the previous chapters when we've talked about Slughorn, we've all kind of understood that while uncommon, what Slughorn is offering them is actually like real life networking opportunities that could have a value, positive result on their futures.

[Laura]

Sure. But he does it, I think, by recognizing the talent that he thinks is ultimately going to reflect positively on him in some way because of his connections in terms of putting that position or putting that person in the Right place at the right time to get those opportunities. It's at the end of the day, it's all. It's all a means to an end of benefiting Slughorn, I really believe. Yeah, really. He's like, just keep sending me the candied pineapple.

[Eric]

And what even is crystallized pineapple? Like, I've gotta have some now.

[Laura]

Oh, it's so good.

[Eric]

Really?

[Laura]

Candied pineapple. Yeah, it's good.

[Rachel]

Is it different? I don't know. I feel like I'm just picturing like dried pineapple with sugar.

[Laura]

That's what it is. Oh, it's just candy.

[Eric]

And it sounds amazing. I'm in.

[Laura]

Yeah.

[Eric]

Yeah.

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[Laura]

As we alluded to a little earlier. The next truth that we see unfogged is slightly giving Tom way too much information about Horcruxes, but also about creating Horcruxes. Despite the fact that this subject matter is clearly forbidden at Hogwarts. What's really interesting is Slughorn mentions at one point that Dumbledore is particularly fierce about the subject being banned. And knowing the time period that we're in right now, it's. Eric, you noted this in the doc. We're in the 1940s.

[Eric]

Yeah.

[Laura]

And Dumbledore is already being fierce about. We are not teaching about Horcruxes here.

[Eric]

Dumbledore, who is not the headmaster, by the way, can still dip it.

[Laura]

Yeah. When do we think this school policy was put in place? And was there an inciting incident that made Dumbledore feel this way?

[Rachel]

I think Harry sometimes, you know, he's very fixated on his mission and he's like, I need to do this to do this, to do this. And he. If, like, he's not always seeking out, quote unquote, extra information. Hermione absolutely would have been like, why? Was like, she's very into the why. Harry's more about the what?

[Eric]

Just tell me what is going on.

[Rachel]

Right? Like, what do I need to know? What's the deal here? He's like, okay, now I know what Horcruxes are. He's like, I don't need to know why they were banned. That's not going to help me beat Voldemort.

[Micah]

This idea that it could have something to do with Grindelwald and their past relationship. And it's certainly a topic that would surprise no one to have come up, right? We're talking about for the greater good. We're talking about the Deathly Hallows, Right? And just the things that Dumbledore and Grindelwald likely explored in the Dark Arts. Horcruxes had to be something that were. That was on the table. In a lot of ways. It's almost like the Obscurial was a precursor to the Horcrux. Even though we learned about Horcruxes before we learned about Obscurials.

[Eric]

I wonder how, like, the knowledge of Horcruxes is transmitted.

[Rachel]

And it's very interesting.

[Eric]

Slughorn knew there was a spell. He says there's a spell.

[Rachel]

It's making me wonder. Ron frequently talks about, like, Bill's work in Egypt about, like, breaking all sorts of dark curses. And, I mean, I know he's working with the bank, so probably not Horcruxes, but I wonder if, like, Horcruxes even go all the way back to, like, the ancient Egyptians.

[Eric]

Probably especially because the Egyptians in particular were so obsessed with immortality or the afterlife that you could see that easily becoming something. But, yeah, as with any, like, branch of ancient magic, it's this. The answers exist very far away, but you. You can find them still.

[Micah]

Becky in the Discord was saying that Herpo the Fowl has a chocolate frog card that I think mentions that he was the first known creator of a Horcrux.

[Eric]

I thought he created dementors.

[Rachel]

Oh, well, they could go hand in hand. Tomato, Tomato could see the person who. Maybe that's how he did it. Like, used it, like. Because if a dementor administers the kiss and sucks someone's soul out, is that then theirs? Or could another wizard, like, extract it from the dementor and put it in something else?

[Eric]

Yeah, and if the dementor succeeded in kissing Harry, would they have obtained the Horcrux that's inside of him. So I.

[Rachel]

Or would they get like a two for one deal?

[Eric]

Yeah, that would be great. Bonus and jackpot. And the pinball machine Dementors.

[Rachel]

Like, this is the best day ever.

[Eric]

Oh man, it's great. It was. Echrisdis is the name of somebody who may have created Dementors.

[Laura]

All right, so moving along from Grindelwald, I wanted to ask the question that I feel like is the next natural question to come up around this line of thinking of Horcruxes as a subject being banned at Hogwarts. Do we agree that info on these should be banned at Hogwarts at a place of education?

[Micah]

Uh, I don't think it should be banned because inevitably when you ban something, we all know what happens anyway. But I would look at. They teach you about the Unforgivable Curses, right? Or, or at least Imposter Moody did.

[Eric]

Yeah, Crazed murderer taught them about the Unforgivable. And Dumbledore that year was checked out. So I don't even know if Dumbledore knows that they all learned about.

[Micah]

Well, let's presume that knowledge of the Unforgivable Curses is imparted on students at Hogwarts at some point in their.

[Eric]

I'll agree with you on that.

[Micah]

Schooling. So if they're going to teach you about the Unforgivable Curses, and presumably you need to perform one in order to create the Horcrux, at least in part, we know there's likely more that goes into it than just Avada Kedavra. What's the issue? Like, I, I, I feel like you don't need to do a whole course on Horcruxes, but I think just mentioning it as this dark artifact that can contain a piece of a person's soul, there's nothing wrong with that.

[Rachel]

Yes, my thought on that was similar. Like you don't need to go through the process, you don't need to have a student. You certainly don't need to have a student make one. Um, but just the knowledge that these things exist I think is useful information, especially for students, like in any WT level. Like, I wouldn't introduce it to like first or second years.

[Eric]

Well, any TW level or any WT level gets to like the seventh year type thing. So it's like already you're in almost college era. So like it's not really the purview of Hogwarts to teach it, I don't think. Okay, like I again, there's not, there should be a wizard college. There's not, but there should be. Especially because there's, you know, we see there being like, healers need several years more training and auras need several years more training and all this other stuff. So there's not a satisfactory place where people would go. But I would see this being like college level knowledge. I actually compare it to building a bomb. I don't know how to build a bomb. I mixed chemicals in chemistry, but I don't know how to build a bomb. You know, you don't tell people how to build a bomb. You don't, you don't have them do that as a class. You don't, you don't tell them how bombs work. They might read about it or see it in tv, but you're not going to, you know, have a class where that is taught or even really mentioned.

[Micah]

But you know, a bomb exists.

[Eric]

I think that's something to do with fertilizer. Like the idea is like by not teaching it, by banning even the mention of it, you're ruling out that anybody's just going to like, who wouldn't ordinarily be heading that way, gets excited and is like, oh, I want to be immortal and then goes and tries it.

[Rachel]

But I liked what Micah's point of like, your comparison with like, right, they don't teach you how to, to build a bomb, but you know that it's a thing same as like you, that you wouldn't teach them how to make a Horcrux. But you know what it is. And to your point, with like extended training, like I think the ministry or any career that deals with dark magic absolutely needs to have instruction on them, especially how to recognize and destroy when you come into contact with one.

[Eric]

No, absolutely. I mean, who knows how bombs worked, people who build them, but also people have to defuse them.

[Micah]

But presumably post Deathly Hallows, Horcruxes would be widely known in terms of. This is what Voldemort utilized in order to anchor himself to this world. And the more people who know about it, presumably the more that could be prevented in the future.

[Laura]

Yeah, I will say I think the one utility behind teaching about Horcruxes somewhat at this level is to teach students how detrimental they are to your soul and your entire person. I mean, we see the physical impacts that it has on Voldemort. But you know, where, where are the cautionary tales around this is what happens if you do this horrible thing. Not only should you not do it because it is morally reprehensible, but if you do, these terrible things will happen. To your mind and body as a result. Well, we do have quite a bit more Horcrux talk ahead, but we do need to stop for just one more quick break to hear from our sponsors here. So just stay with us and we'll be right back.

[Micah]

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[Laura]

So we also get this confirmation that Dumbledore received certain proof four years previously that Voldemort had split his soul based on the behavior of Tom Riddle's memory in the diary that Harry destroys in the Chamber of Secrets, he points out. Though I figured there must be more Horcruxes because Riddle was willing to potentially risk a part of his soul to get the Chamber of Secrets reopened, which I thought was really interesting.

[Rachel]

Yeah, this, your note here about like, the willingness to risk was fascinating to me. Like, I had never thought about it from that lens of like. So why did he decide it was worth the risk? And you know, like, did. Did Lucius just go rogue and decide to pass the diary along? Was there some kind of signal Lucius was waiting for that, like Voldemort discussed with him when he gave him the diary in the first place. You know, like, I just, I'm just so curious as to, like, you know, why now when Lucius gave off the diary?

[Laura]

Well, we also get an explanation for Dumbledore's blackened hand and confirmation that the ring was also one of Voldemort's Horcruxes. Someone was a little tempted, Micah, right?

[Eric]

Yeah.

[Micah]

Little Hallows Happy was Albus Dumbledore having two of the three Deathly Hallows in his possession? You know, it is so interesting to me, though, that Dumbledore fails to mention in this moment that the ring is not Just a Horcrux.

[Rachel]

Mm.

[Micah]

He withholds that information. I mean, shocker, he withholds information, but. Well, I don't know what it would've meant to Harry in that moment, but.

[Eric]

No, but what comes to mind is Riddle's wearing the ring in the memory when he learns about Horcruxes. And so you know, we know where Riddle got the ring. He took it off a morphine. Does. Does Riddle ever find out that it's a resurrection stone? And what would Riddle have seen if he turned it thrice in his hand? Would he have conversed with Marvolo or one of his ancestors? Is that where he found out about Cruxus? Yeah. Or because the Resurrection Stone seems to work. I hate this explanation. But in the forest again, they're like, yeah, we're in your heart or whatever. So because Voldemort and Tom Riddle are heart flawed in a way, does that mean he never really turned the ring and saw anything? Or did he just not know?

[Laura]

Or maybe he didn't care. Because the whole point of the ring, as you mentioned, Eric, there has to be somebody that you loved enough that you'd want to bring him back. I don't think Voldemort has anyone like that.

[Eric]

So he never just dropped it and it spin three times. I mean, I dropped my phone all the time. He never dropped his ring. Yeah.

[Micah]

One of the things that just popped into my head too is in that particular moment, Dumbledore could have said to Harry, which I can't remember, I don't think he took his Invisibility cloak with him to go out to visit Hagrid in the first place, but.

[Eric]

Oh, he did.

[Micah]

He did.

[Eric]

He did. Because he unveiled himself to Slughorn. Yeah.

[Micah]

He's like, hey, so Dumbledore could have just said to Harry, hey, can I borrow your cloak for a second? And then dipped off. And he would have lived forever. He wouldn't have died.

[Eric]

All three of the Hallows are potentially in that office. In that office, right? In this chapter. That's wild, because Dumbledore has the Elder Wand. He does.

[Laura]

Yeah.

[Micah]

He has the stone and Harry has the cloak.

[Rachel]

Crazy. But they weren't all like by the same. They weren't all mastered by the same, right?

[Eric]

Oh yeah. Where's the allegiance right now of the wand and who does the cloak favor?

[Laura]

Yeah, well, I think it might have been information overload for Harry and for the reader to try and do Horcruxes and Hallows here.

[Eric]

It's after Bedridge, right?

[Rachel]

Because she would have had to have Introduced Hallows then way before this.

[Laura]

Sure, Exactly. But Harry also correctly guesses that Hufflepuff's cup is a Horcrux, just based on the knowledge he's earned from all these memories. And Dumbledore also throws an interesting possibility, wink, wink into the mix that Nagini, Voldemort's snake, who's always super close to him, may be a Horcrux. Which is our first indication that Horcruxes can be made out of living things. Said with shifty, sideways staring eyes. Dumbledore's not possibly talking about any other living thing, right?

[Micah]

See pensive segment from earlier in this episode.

[Laura]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Eric]

Well. And yeah, just watching and reading Dumbledore talk about living things and Horcruxes and the unique tools that Voldemort gave to Harry. It's so close to being honest.

[Micah]

It's also tough reading this now, knowing what we do about Nagini and the fact that she's a Maledictus.

[Eric]

It's pretty interesting. Dumbledore tells Harry that Voldemort is perhaps as fond of Nagini as he is of anything, but he talks about it as, like, the snake underscores his connection to Parcelmouth and Slytherin and all this other stuff. And yeah, I wonder what Dumbledore knows of the snake's own past.

[Micah]

Yeah, yeah. And we also get mention of the locket, whether directly or indirectly. Dumbledore has this quote where he says, I think perhaps I may be close to finding another one. There are hopeful signs. And thinking back on this a little bit, does it make sense that there would be signs if the locket is a fake?

[Rachel]

I took this to mean, like, signs of, like, where he may have put it and what the object would be, because the location and then even the locket itself. Dumbledore was correct with guessing that the locket would be in. In the cave. So, like, he wouldn't have. Dumbledore had no way to know that it would have been swapped out. Which then, like, got me thinking about, like, how much grief Dumbledore had given Sirius for not treating Kreacher better. But if Dumbledore himself had gotten to know Kreacher, you know, he may have learned all about Regulus and the locket swap and gotten the locket in the summer of Order of the Phoenix when they were clearing out the house and then would have. That would have changed so many things.

[Eric]

Not only that, but they could call Kreacher here this second and be like, hey, do you know about a cave?

[Rachel]

Oh, that's true. They could get him right now. He's there.

[Eric]

There's no reason they would guess that creature would know about the cave. But if Harry remembers that there was a particular locket at Grimow Place just laying around that nobody could open, then it would all unravel and they would never need to go in the cave. Which would be an interesting scenario, seeing as how Dumbledore is slated for death. And if Dumbledore doesn't die exactly the way that he's supposed to in this book, then Snape probably dies because of the Unbreakable Vow and his promise to Narcissa. So it's interesting what would have happened if. Because as sad as it is to go through these next chapters and realize, okay, so, like, the locket's a fake and we're no further along on the path to destroying the Horcruxes in Voldemort, and now Dumbledore is dead. All this other stuff, ultimately it works out how it has to because we just don't have enough of the pieces.

[Laura]

Right? Well, another major theme touched on in this chapter outside of Horcruxes is Harry's power to defeat Voldemort. And I wanted to spend some time on this because it often gets simplified down to Harry's capacity for love being his ultimate weapon against Voldemort. And even Harry calls out in the chapter like, okay, that sounds kind of lame, Albus. The power of love and friendship.

[Rachel]

Cool.

[Laura]

I'm gonna take down Voldemort with it. But Dumbledore actually gives an explanation that I think provides a little more weight behind that sentiment. And Rachel, I was wondering if you could read this quote from Dumbledore here about what he says Voldemort has ultimately done to create his own undoing.

[Rachel]

Absolutely. Now, I do not have Andrew's Dumbledore voice.

[Laura]

That's okay.

[Eric]

Who does?

[Laura]

None of us do.

[Rachel]

Not even going to try. Voldemort himself created his worst enemy, just as tyrants everywhere do. Have you any idea how much tyrants fear the people they oppress? All of them realize that one day, amongst their many victims, there is sure to be one who rises against them and strikes back. Voldemort is no different. Always he was on the lookout for the one who would challenge him. He heard the prophecy and he leapt into action. With the result that he not only handpicked the man most likely to finish him, he handed him uniquely deadly weapons. Oof. If parts of that quote don't ring really strong, they should.

[Laura]

They really should. Yeah, see? See some global elections that have happened in the last couple of weeks as evidence of this. But it's not just Harry's ability to love that Dumbledore is talking about here. It's his ability to love, despite the close mind connection he shares with Voldemort and the literal marks and transference of power that Voldemort bestowed upon him. Voldemort put a Horcrux in his head. Voldemort transferred the power of speaking Parselmouth to Harry Potter. The Sorting Hat literally thinks Harry might belong in Slytherin because of how much influence Voldemort has on him. And yet, despite all of this, and despite the horrible circumstances that Harry grew up in because of Voldemort murdering his parents, Harry still has the capacity to love. And he has these extra weapons that make it so Voldemort up until this point wasn't able to touch him. Also so that Voldemort is constantly underestimating him and ultimately so that Voldemort doesn't have as much to fight for as Harry does.

[Eric]

Yeah, I, I, I, I dislike how disingenuous it is, though, for Dumbledore because, like, Harry comes to a new understanding, right? Harry comes to this understanding. It makes all the difference in the world that I'm going into the arena with my head held high because I'm choosing this. Dumbledore tells Harry that the prophecy doesn't really mean anything. The prophecy only means something because Voldemort put it in action, right? And that Harry could walk away. He has a choice here. Harry could walk away, but because this little asterisk of Voldemort's always going to hunt him, that maybe it, it, it wouldn't work. And that's why it all matters. What he's not telling Harry is, as a matter of fact, in order for Voldemort to die, he has to murder you so that the part of his soul that's in you gets killed. And he knows this, and he knows this in this moment because he tells Snape this. We see this in one of Snape's flashbacks in the pensive, that he knows that Voldemort has to kill Harry. And so basically, by not telling Harry that in this moment, and I understand timing would probably suck, but by not telling Harry that, he's giving Harry the illusion of choice that makes Harry feel like it makes all the difference in the world for him to choose to go after Voldemort. So it's a little disingenuous on Dumbledore's part. Despite me loving the talk about love and how pure Harry is and how he's been through so much, particularly when Dumbledore mentions the Mirror of Erised. It's a very strong moment. You know, he talks about how unique Harry is at being able to see what he could see and how Harry just wanted a family way back in book one. And it shows me, you know, that this is a man who does care to some extent about Harry. But he's still not giving him all the details.

[Laura]

Well, yeah, he's the ultimate chess master. Right. Gotta give him those details of the opportune moment.

[Micah]

One of the other pieces of information that gets revealed in this chapter is that it's highly unlikely that Voldemort feels anything when one of his Horcruxes is destroyed. And, and I will say I did enjoy the movie's take on this more than the way that it's written because

[Eric]

he does feel something. Well,

[Micah]

he does that a lot, by the way.

[Laura]

Yeah, please change that for the TV show. My God, I don't need guttural Voldemort.

[Micah]

Well, if it's true to the book, then there won't be any reaction. Which then part of me started to wonder is that you know, in some way a part of this dark magic, you know, it's the consequence of you creating a Horcrux in that if one of them is destroyed or multiple in Voldemort's case, you don't know, you don't feel it. That's the price you pay for what you're doing. Or part of the price you pay.

[Laura]

We know that it weakens your soul to split it. Right? And if you split your soul seven times, the piece of soul left residing in your body, that's going to be super weak. How well connected is it going to be to the other pieces? Maybe, I don't know, maybe you could argue to the sentient pieces like Nagini and, and Harry, but certainly not the, the non sentient pieces of the soul. Right, but then again, he didn't know about the diary when it happened, right?

[Eric]

No, he was off existing as his like sub less than human self when

[Micah]

that was destroyed because presumably he would have then taken further action to ensure his other Horcruxes were much better protected.

[Laura]

Well, that wraps us up for this chapter, but not quite yet. For this episode. We still have a couple of things to get to, including our links line. Patrons [e-mail] Mugglecast answered this week's question, which is if Horcruxes were A subscription service. What would their tagline be? Uh, and of course we had to give our own answers to this that we're going to go over first before we get into Patreon Answers. Eric, what did you say?

[Eric]

What an unhinged sort of question to ask. But I had a lot of fun coming up with this. All right, I put, uh. So tagline for Horcruxes.

[Rachel]

Right?

[Eric]

To sell Horcruxes. Okay. Having the last laugh, guaranteed.

[Laura]

Love it.

[Micah]

I went with death is outdated. Upgrade your experience.

[Laura]

I went with be your best self forever. Family plans start at just 12.99amonth.

[Eric]

Amazing.

[Rachel]

And I went with kill once. Live forever. It'll feel so, so good.

[Eric]

So good. Oh, I love it.

[Laura]

Oh, and then you get em all together and it's like reunited and it feels so good. Anyway, we're gonna get into our patron responses now and we can just read these in host order, y'.

[Rachel]

All.

[Micah]

Okay.

[Eric]

Michael W. Says haters got you down. Show them by making your very own Horcrux. You can live forever and your haters can live for the exact opposite of that. Never again. Terms and conditions apply.

[Micah]

Michael. Not that one, but a different one. Says we're at the heart and soul of all your objects.

[Laura]

Matthew says, tired of that pesky empathy. Can't afford a nose job. Have too many expensive trinkets sitting around waiting to have horrors poured into them.

[Rachel]

Parth says immortality now in a convenient monthly fragments. Just 666.

[Micah]

I love that.

[Laura]

Very good.

[Eric]

Oh my God.

[Rachel]

Cancel any time. If you can't find all. If you could find all the pieces.

[Micah]

Oh my God.

[Laura]

That's an interesting caveat.

[Micah]

Yeah.

[Eric]

Neil says horcrux and chill. Nothing says commitment like mutual assured immortality.

[Micah]

Susan says split your soul to keep you whole.

[Laura]

Jess says, why fear death when you could just avoid it? The magical cure for your health anxiety is here. Try it for free for seven days.

[Rachel]

Zachary says, are you stressed about what's really in the beyond? Then you're the right candidate for our solution. For the small cost of one life and a trinket, you can eliminate that fear and live forever.

[Eric]

And Jared finally says, is work bringing you down? Do you have days where you wish your boss didn't exist? Try Horcruxes. No boss. New life, forever life. 50% off if you do the deed today.

[Laura]

Love it. Thanks so much for the unhinged responses, y'.

[Rachel]

All.

[Laura]

I love coming up with these kinds of questions. We gotta get a different interpretation going for this stuff. Bring it into 2026. Well, if you have feedback about today's discussion. You can contact us by emailing or sending a voice memo recorded on your phone to mugglecastmail.com you can also leave us a review in your podcast app of choice on Spotify as well as YouTube. And you can also reach out to us via our various social media platforms. We are Mugglecast across the board on all of those. Next week we're going to be getting into Chapter 24 of Half Blood Prince, Sectum Sempera. You can visit mugglecast.com for links to our social media Patreon transcripts, our favorite episodes, and lots more. And now, Eric, I'm going to turn it over to you for Kwizzitch.

[Eric]

And this is a double edition of Quizzic because we had two questions unanswered. This week's first question in chapter 21, Harry is searching for a phrase that'll get him into the room of requirement. Kind of like a password. Who was the host of the United States television game show called password from 1961 to 1975? The correct answer is Alan Ludden. And 33% of people with the correct answer say they did not look that up. Correct winners Correct answers were submitted by admin 1234. How do they guess our password, you guys? Ashley B. Camilla Eden, The Muggle established 2012 Gesso Patronum. I play Fluffy's Harp, Tevildo, Prince of Darkness, Tonks's Rhinoplasty and Tofu Tom. And here is the second Quizzet question.

[Laura]

Oh, do you want the music again?

[Eric]

Don't even worry about it. It's cool. On which earth continent would you find the world's biggest spider? Terraposa Blondi, AKA the Goliath Bird eater. And the correct answer to this question is South America. And one of our winners says Shocked. It's not Australian. And I agree, usually, usually it's Australia that has all the craziest stuff. But correct answers were submitted by Book Ben here to replace Tofu Tom. Don't know what that's about. Tonks is rhinoplasty. And once again, Eden the Mugga born established 2012. 50% of people who submitted said they did not look that up. And finally, here is next week's Quizzet question. Next week's question is all about the most magically powerful. Number seven. On July 7, 2007, the new Seven Wonders of the Modern World were unveiled by the new 7Wonders Committee in Switzerland with input from around the world. Of the new seven Wonders of the Modern World, which one of them is the most Modern. Submit your answer to us on the mugglecast website using the Quizzage form, which can be [e-mail] quizzage and thanks everyone for playing. It's always a lot of fun. Hopefully you learned something.

[Laura]

We definitely do. Rachel, thank you so much for joining us today. It was really fun to have you on the show. We where can our listeners find you?

[Rachel]

Thank you so much for inviting me. It was awesome to be here. You can find me on Instagram at themanuscript, which is spelled like manuscript but with an e instead of an A. And you can see all the books I'm reading and meals that I am cooking. And if you want to listen to me talk more about books, including some input from some familiar voices, you can look up the manuscript on whatever podcast platform you choose to listen to.

[Laura]

Well, that is it for this week's episode. I'm Laura.

[Eric]

I'm Eric.

[Micah]

I'm Micah.

[Rachel]

And I'm Rachel.

[Laura]

We'll see you next time, y'.

[Rachel]

All.

[Micah]

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