6. Observations

Summary

Murder on Songbird Road: Episode 6 - Observations

Introduction

In Episode 6 of Murder on Songbird Road, host Lauren Bright Pacheco teams up with criminal defense attorney Bob Mata to delve deeper into the tragic stabbing death of 11-year-old Jade Beasley in Southern Illinois. This episode, titled "Observations," explores the emotional aftermath of Jade's murder, the subsequent arrest and conviction of her father’s fiancée, Julie Beverly, and the lingering questions surrounding the case.

Family Perspectives

Interview with Jade’s Great Aunt Brenda and Father Julia Beverly

Lauren Bright Pacheco opens the episode by introducing Brenda, Jade's great aunt, and Julia Beverly, Jade's father. Both members of Jade’s extended family share their heartfelt memories of Jade and their reactions to the devastating loss.

Jade’s Character and Relationship with Julie

Brenda describes Jade as “sassy as she was sweet” and emphasizes her deep kindness and love for her family. Julia adds, “Jade was very kind. She loved all of her siblings and all of her cousins very deeply.” The family recounts Jade’s individuality and expressiveness, highlighting her unique style and affectionate nature.

Impact of the Murder

The murder left the blended family grappling with immense grief and confusion. Brenda reflects on the suddenness of the tragedy, stating, “Absolutely not. Never. Never. That happens to other families.” Julia echoes this sentiment, expressing her disbelief: “It's something you can't wrap your head around. It's just... something you can never prepare for.”

The Arrest and Trial of Julie Beverly

The episode navigates the swift nature of Julie Beverly's arrest, occurring just five days after Jade's murder. Lauren points out the lack of traditional evidence: “no confession, no murder weapon, no DNA evidence.” Instead, the case hinged on circumstantial evidence and motives.

Motive: Jealousy

A central theme of the investigation is the alleged motive of jealousy. Brenda explains, “Jade was the princess. She was her daddy's little girl. ... They divorced at quite a young age. And they were young when they had Jade, but she would not speak about things that would make other people look bad or feel bad at all. I wasn't there day to day with the family, but I do know that the night that she spent the night with Michael and Julie... she wanted to see her dad before she went to her sister's birthday party.” Julia adds, “...that’s why I wanted to ask you ... [about] jealousy... and we believe she snapped.”

Evidence and Investigation

The investigation relied heavily on cell phone data linking Julie to the crime scene. At trial, Bordeaux found evidence of a dumpster near a gas station where Julie purportedly disposed of items shortly before the murder. Julia discusses the limitations of this evidence: “...they did try to do everything that they could do throughout this case... When you get everybody together, it is loud and it is crazy...”

Family’s Stance on Julie’s Guilt

Both Brenda and Julia maintain their belief in Julie's guilt. Julia states unequivocally, “... I am confident that Julie Beverly is guilty of this crime,” while Brenda adds, “I am 200% convinced Julie is guilty. I will go to my grave thinking that.” Despite this, they exhibit a capacity for forgiveness, should new evidence emerge proving Julie's innocence.

Religious Beliefs and Solace

The family draws strength from their Christian faith. Brenda explains, “The children will be raised Christian,” finding solace in their religious beliefs amidst the turmoil.

Critique of the Legal Process

Julia critiques the prosecution for not presenting a clear motive, stating, “My personal opinion is that sometimes people snap, and that is what I believe happened in this case.” The family also questions the thoroughness of the investigation, noting discrepancies in the evidence related to the dumpsters.

Open-Mindedness and Integrity

Despite their conviction, Brenda and Julia express openness to revisiting the case if new, compelling evidence arises. Julia remarks, “If something were to change in the case and she was to be proven innocent or not guilty, we will apologize to her.”

Conclusion

Episode 6 of Murder on Songbird Road offers a poignant exploration of the emotional and psychological landscapes of Jade Beasley's family following her murder. Through intimate interviews, Lauren Bright Pacheco and Bob Mata shed light on the complexities of familial bonds, the quest for justice, and the enduring hope for truth in the face of tragedy.

Notable Quotes

• Brenda [04:58]: “Jade just absolutely loved pink. It’s Jade’s color. She just absolutely loved pink.”
• Julia Beverly [06:03]: “I will never forget when I found out and getting that phone call and how quickly it changes your life.”
• Bob Mata [09:30]: “I just can't even imagine the loss that your entire family has experienced and will always experience.”
• Brenda [16:24]: “She had to have done it because she's an evil witch.”
• Julia Beverly [27:33]: “For me personally... I took from that moment during the trial that this was thorough.”

This episode underscores the enduring impact of Jade Beasley's murder on her family and the intricate web of emotions and beliefs that continue to shape their quest for justice.

Transcript

[Holly Fry]

He was a boy scout leader, a husband, a father. But he was leading a double life. He was a monster hiding in plain sight. Journey inside the mind of one of history's most notorious killers, BTK through the voices of the people who know him best. Listen to Monster BTK on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.

[Maria Trimarchi]

Welcome to the Criminalia podcast. I'm Maria Tremarke.

[Holly Fry]

And I'm Holly Fry. Together we invite you into the dark and winding corridors of historical true crime.

[Maria Trimarchi]

Each season we explore a new theme. From poisoners to art thieves, we uncover.

[Holly Fry]

The secrets of history's most interesting figures, from legal injustices to body snatching.

[Maria Trimarchi]

And tune in at the end of each episode as we indulge in cocktails and mocktails inspired by each story.

[Holly Fry]

Listen to criminalia on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

[Lauren Bright Pacheco]

It was big news.

[Brenda]

I mean, white girl gets murdered, found in a cemetery.

[Lauren Bright Pacheco]

Big, big news.

[Bailey]

A long investigation stalls until someone changes their story.

[Kara Price]

I, like, saw something that happened.

[Bailey]

An arrest, trial and conviction soon follow.

[Jade's Great Aunt]

He did not kill her. There's no way is the real killer.

[Bailey]

Rightly behind bars or still walking free.

[Jade's Great Aunt]

Did you kill her?

[Bailey]

Listen to the real Killer, Season 3 on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

[Kyle Tequila]

My name is Kyle Tequila, host of the shocking new true crime podcast Crook County. I got recruited into the mob when I was 17 years old.

[Lauren Bright Pacheco]

People are dying.

[Bailey]

Is he doing this every night?

[Kyle Tequila]

Kenny was a Chicago firefighter who lived a secret double life as a mafia hitman. I had a wife and I had two children. Nobody knew anything. He was a fricking crazy man. He was my father, and I had no idea about any of this until now. From Tenderfoot TV and iHeart Podcasts, Crook county is available Tuesday, February 11th. Listen for free on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

[Lauren Bright Pacheco]

Murder on Songbird Road is a production of iHeart podcasts. Previously on Murder on Songbird Road.

[Brenda]

She found out she was pregnant in jail.

[Lauren Bright Pacheco]

It was rough. The best possible blessing at the worst possible time. Yes, exactly.

[Brenda]

$2 million bond. And we went in for a reduction.

[Lauren Bright Pacheco]

And Judge Green denied it. So we tried again when she was.

[Brenda]

Around eight months pregnant, and he denied it again.

[Lauren Bright Pacheco]

There were no presumptions of innocence while we were awaiting trial. There was none of that. None of it especially, it would seem, when it came to Beverly's labor and delivery.

[Kara Price]

Marilyn Reynolds tells me that the judge ordered Thomas would be taken as soon as the umbilical cord was cut. I wanted to scream at that moment. I said, no one told me this.

[Lauren Bright Pacheco]

I'm Lauren Bright Pacheco, and this is Murder on Songbird Road. Jade Beasley's murder left the blended family she was a part of splintered with grief, anger, and confusion. That ripple effect has reverberated throughout the extended family of her father, Mike Beasley. But Bob and I were very hopeful the family would eventually respond to our ongoing offers to sit down for an interview.

[Jade's Great Aunt]

I am Jade's great aunt. I am the sister of her grandmother, Sheila.

[Lauren Bright Pacheco]

That's Brenda, the sister of Sheila Beasley, who is Mike's mother and Jade's paternal grandmother.

[Julia Beverly]

My name is Bailey, and Jade's father, Michael is my first cousin.

[Lauren Bright Pacheco]

And that's Bailey, the niece of Brenda and Sheila. Bailey and Brenda worked together to craft the victim impact statement that Brenda delivered in court while addressing Julia Beverly before her sentencing. For both Bob and me, it was incredibly important to connect with them.

[Bob Mata]

I'm so grateful that y'all have allowed us to speak to you. I wanna know every side of this tragedy, and I'm half blind if I don't have these conversations with you two. So I'm sure I'm speaking for Lauren as well.

[Lauren Bright Pacheco]

I am so appreciative that you've agreed to speak with us.

[Bob Mata]

I'm very grateful that y'all are willing to do this and kind enough to do this. I can imagine how difficult it is to rehash this Stu.

[Lauren Bright Pacheco]

I notice both of you ladies are wearing pink.

[Julia Beverly]

Intentional.

[Jade's Great Aunt]

This is Jade's favorite color. It's Jade's color. She just absolutely loved pink. And it is the color we have chosen for the foundation for Jade Marie Beasley Speak Life foundation that spreads kindness in the community and helps children express themselves. She expressed herself in her own unique way, hence the Speak Life Foundation. She loved music, she loved the arts, and she didn't get an opportunity to grow and learn. So we are hoping to carry that on for Jade.

[Lauren Bright Pacheco]

Wearing pink became a symbol of solidarity with the justice for Jade movement, particularly during the lead up to and throughout Beverly's trial. We'll explore the significance of this color, especially its presence from the courtroom bench in future episodes. Beyond Wearing Pink, both women share not only a familial resemblance to Jade, but a profound grief over her tragic murder.

[Julia Beverly]

It's just. It's never something you would think to experience. I know for me, I'll never forget when I found out and getting that Phone call and how quickly it changes your life.

[Lauren Bright Pacheco]

I know that this is a difficult topic for both of you. If you could just tell me a little bit about Jade and Bailey, I'll let you go first.

[Julia Beverly]

I would say the first thing I have to say about her was that she was very eccentric and individualistic in the best way, even for a child. If you look at pictures, you know, you'll notice there may be a one pattern in a headband and a completely different pattern in a shirt. She loved to play with her own style and dress herself and be expressive in that way. Jade was very kind. She loved all of her siblings and all of her cousins very deeply. Brenda, I think I'll let you go ahead.

[Jade's Great Aunt]

From my perspective, Jade was just as sassy as she was sweet. She was very kind. She loved animals. She loved butterflies. She would come visit me either at the lake, then we would go boating, or her favorite place was to go to the beach, to Orange beach and Gulf Shores. And she would just love to get up and walk on the beach and look at the tiniest little shell or creature. She just loved life, period. She was always kind. No matter if somebody was mean to her, she was kind. That was just her nature.

[Lauren Bright Pacheco]

We are all used to reading awful stories in the headlines and hearing them on the radio and television. But could anything have prepared you guys for experiencing this within your family?

[Jade's Great Aunt]

Absolutely not. Never. Never. That happens to other families.

[Julia Beverly]

I was in shock and disbelief. It's something you can't wrap your head around. It's just. It's something you can never prepare for. And it's something you would never expect to happen to your family or to you or to your loved one. It's hard for somebody to say that Jade's dead or that this person died.

[Holly Fry]

It's.

[Julia Beverly]

They're gone and it's. What do you mean they're gone? Are they missing? Gone? You know, what. What is gone?

[Bob Mata]

I just first wanted to say I'm. I can't even imagine the loss that your entire family has experienced and will always experience. I can't even imagine what that feels like unless you're in it. You just can't. Like, I could try to contemplate what it might be like, but I could never know what you guys have experienced. This is so valuable to us to hear from you guys, to learn about who Jade was as a human being, who she was to you guys, what she meant to you, and to give us your impressions of Julie. Because we came into this not knowing anybody.

[Jade's Great Aunt]

I felt strongly that Jake needed to have representation, because I'm sure you guys could go on with or without us. And I get it. The biological mother and her father, they want, at this point, no part of a podcast because they just specifically, they can't even think about it anymore. It's just too overwhelming.

[Lauren Bright Pacheco]

A quick note. That dynamic would eventually change. We are deeply grateful for the ongoing conversations we've had with Jade's family and are continually impressed by their openness and willingness to engage. When we first spoke with Bailey and her Aunt Brenda, it was August of 2024. By then, they had spent nearly four years processing the murder and everything that had unfolded since, including Julia Beverly's arrest, trial, and ultimate conviction.

[Bob Mata]

When you first heard that it was Julie, was there part of your mind that was like, no way. Or was there part of your mind where you're like, that totally makes sense.

[Julia Beverly]

For me, I think I was somewhere in the middle. I would say it was more of shock there because it's somebody so close, somebody that had been around the family, obviously, that had children with Michael. There is a shock there in that aspect, I would say. At the same time, though, when I did hear that, it kind of makes your brain start working backwards and thinking of the times when she was so withdrawn from everybody else around her, and that makes you start thinking, did she have an issue that she didn't say? Was it suppressing these emotions? Were you enjoying being around everybody or were you not?

[Lauren Bright Pacheco]

The arrest happened pretty quickly after the murder, five days later. And at the time, they had no confession, no murder weapon, no DNA evidence. But the thing that Bob and I have spoken about multiple times is that there's always a motive. There's a motive that unless you're dealing with somebody like a serial killer, where it's just irrational or driven by things that we can't even imagine imagine. But you mentioned something in the victim impact statement that stuck with me, which is why I wanted to ask you. You'd use the word jealousy, I believe, if I'm not mistaken. And I was wondering if you could expand upon that.

[Jade's Great Aunt]

The limited times that the family came here collectively together. Jade and I had had conversations. And so my perspective of jealousy was Jade was the princess. She was her daddy's little girl. She was from a different marriage. She was loved dearly by both sides of her family. Her biological mother, her biological father. They got along very well. It was a textbook seven day on, seven day off, joint custody situation. There was love for that child since she was born. And they divorced at quite a young age. And they were young when they had Jay, but you can be nice to someone but not really care for them.

[Lauren Bright Pacheco]

That duality stuck out to both Bob and myself immediately because we'd not heard any examples of conflict or abuse between Beverly and her stepdaughter. I know that Julie did come down with Mike and the kids twice, if I'm not mistaken, to visit you in Alabama. Looking back, did you observe anything about that dynamic that sticks out?

[Jade's Great Aunt]

I didn't really talk that much to her. And then when she came with the family, in any family event, Julie never interacted with the family. She was very withdrawn and she would withdraw herself from family situations. So, yes, over seven and a half years, I guess they were together. The family came to Alabama at least four times a year, but not Michael and Julie and that family. Jade would come, but she never came. So, I mean, anything that I say is clearly from my limited perspective with her and from my conversations, like I said, with Jade. And I do know that Jade did not feel totally inclusive in the Michael Julie pod, but she would not speak about things that would make other people look bad or feel bad at all. I wasn't there day to day with the family, but I do know that the night that she spent the night there with Michael and Julie at their home on Songbird Road, the other children were with my sister. And my sister did say, why don't you stay? Why do you want to go? Why do you want to go so bad? The other kids are here, there's nobody home, you know. And she says, well, I want to see my dad because I have my sister's birthday party to. To go to this week, so I want to see my dad before I go. And that's how she. She says, not just because I'm not going to be able to be with him that week, because there was a lot going on and she wanted to see her dad that evening.

[Lauren Bright Pacheco]

It is of note that by all accounts, the evening before the murder, Jade asked to come back to Songbird Road. And Julia Beverly willingly volunteered to stay home with her that night while Mike went out back to Bailey.

[Julia Beverly]

Brenda mentioned with being withdrawn. You know, we are a big family. We are a pretty loud family on our side. There's a whole bunch of us. There's a lot of kids. When you get everybody together, it is loud and it is crazy. There was a year specifically that sticks out to me now that everything's happened. And it was around Christmas time and some of the kids were opening up gifts and Kim and Michael were there and Julie and Everybody was kind of in the living room at Sheila's house, at Michael's mother's. And some people were kind of in the kitchen. And there's this chair that sits if you're looking at the fireplace and the TV to the left of it. And Julie was sitting in that chair. And when everybody else around her is engaged in opening gifts and talking, she's very quiet and very reserved and kind of just sitting there and observing. And that is just something that stuck with me from that one interaction.

[Lauren Bright Pacheco]

What immediately struck Bob and me was the specific critique Julia's family had of Mike was his quiet and somewhat introverted demeanor at their family gatherings. Back to Brenda and Bailey.

[Julia Beverly]

I am aware, as you all are, that in court, the state did not go for a motive. Jennifer never presented a motive or at least directly stated one that she thought Jennifer is special.

[Lauren Bright Pacheco]

Prosecutor Jennifer Mudge, who tried the case against Julia Beverly.

[Julia Beverly]

My personal opinion is that sometimes people snap, and that is what I believe happened in this case. As Brenda said, you know, Jade was from a previous marriage. He she was the only child in their immediate family from a different marriage. And that is where we believe the jealousy came in and where we believe she snapped.

[Lauren Bright Pacheco]

Murder on Songbird Road will return after the break.

[Holly Fry]

He was a boy scout leader, a church deacon, a husband, a father.

[Jade's Great Aunt]

He went to a local church. He was going to the grocery store with us.

[Lauren Bright Pacheco]

He was the guy next door.

[Holly Fry]

But he was leading a double life.

[Kyle Tequila]

He was certainly a peeping tom, looking through the windows, looking at people, fantasizing about what he could do. He then began entering the houses.

[Jade's Great Aunt]

He could get into their home, take something and get out and not be caught. He felt very powerful.

[Holly Fry]

He was a monster hiding in plain sight.

[Lauren Bright Pacheco]

Someone killed four members of a family. It just didn't happen here.

[Holly Fry]

Journey inside the mind of one of history's most notorious killers, btk, through the voices of the people who know him best. Listen to Monster BTK on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.

[Kyle Tequila]

Do you want to understand an invisible force that's shaping your life? I'm Osvaloshin, one of the new hosts of the long running podcast Tech Stuff. I'm slightly skeptical but obsessively intrigued.

[Kara Price]

And I'm Kara Price, the other new.

[Lauren Bright Pacheco]

Host and I'm ready to adopt early.

[Kyle Tequila]

And often on tech stuff. We travel all the way from the mines of Congo to the surface of Mars to the dark corners of TikTok to ask and attempt to answer burning questions about technology.

[Lauren Bright Pacheco]

One of the kind of tricks for surviving Mars is to live there long enough so that people evolve into Martians. Like data is a very rough proxy.

[Jade's Great Aunt]

For a complex reality.

[Lauren Bright Pacheco]

How is it possible that the world's new energy revolution can be based in.

[Kyle Tequila]

This place where there's no electricity at night?

[Bailey]

Oz and I will cut through the.

[Kara Price]

Noise to bring you the best conversations and deep dives that will help you understand how tech is changing our world and what you need to know to survive the singularity.

[Lauren Bright Pacheco]

So join us.

[Kyle Tequila]

Listen to tech stuff on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

[Holly Fry]

It takes one guy out there to say, who's that?

[Lauren Bright Pacheco]

Kyle who thinks he can just get.

[Holly Fry]

On a microphone on a podcast and start publicizing this.

[Kyle Tequila]

From iHeart podcasts and Tenderfoot TV comes a new true crime podcast, Crook County. I got recruited into the mob when I was 17 years old. Meet Kenny, an enforcer for the legendary Chicago outfit.

[Lauren Bright Pacheco]

And that was my mission, to snuff.

[Kyle Tequila]

The life out of this guy. He lived a secret double life as a firefighter paramedic for the Chicago Fire Department. I had a wife and I had two children. Nobody knew anything.

[Lauren Bright Pacheco]

People are dying.

[Bailey]

Is he doing this every night?

[Kyle Tequila]

Torn between two worlds? I'm covering up murders that these cops are doing. He was a freaking crazy man.

[Brenda]

We don't know who he is really.

[Kyle Tequila]

He is. My father and I had no idea about any of this until now. Welcome to Crook County. Series premiere February 11th. Listen for free on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

[Maria Trimarchi]

Welcome to the Criminalia Podcast. I'm Maria Tremarke.

[Holly Fry]

And I'm Holly Fry. Together we invite you into the dark and winding corridors of historical true crime.

[Maria Trimarchi]

Each season we explore a new theme. Everything from poisoners and pirates to art thieves and snake oil products and those who made and sold them.

[Holly Fry]

We uncover the stories and secrets of some of history's most compelling criminal figures, including a man who built a submarine as a getaway vehicle. Yep, that's a fact.

[Maria Trimarchi]

We also look at what kinds of societal forces were at play at the time of the crime, from legal injustices to the ethics of body snatching, to see what, if anything, might look different through today's perspective.

[Holly Fry]

And be sure to tune in at the end of each episode as we indulge in custom made cocktails and mocktails inspired by the stories. There's one for every story we tell.

[Maria Trimarchi]

Listen to criminalia on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get Your.

[Lauren Bright Pacheco]

Podcasts here again is Murder on Songbird Road.

[Brenda]

Foreign.

[Bob Mata]

I'm always trying to go through the psychology of it, but in terms of Julie's version of what she claims happened, when did you guys hear that? Like, how soon after they say, okay, Julie's a suspect? Was that right away where you heard this story, or is it a trial, or is the prosecutor let you know?

[Jade's Great Aunt]

We had heard bits and pieces prior to the trial that she had left the house, Somebody was there, somebody ran out. We, of course, had heard bits and pieces of it, but we actually heard the full version at the trial. We followed the information of which, by the way, was Julie's statement as to where she went. And from my perspective on jumping straight to it being Julie, I had already told my sister, and everyone said, shut the. Shut the social media off. Shut the noise up. Let's find the facts first. And I said, you will hear the facts. So you follow the facts here. Julie's story and verify. So I trust, but verify. And when the evidence was presented at the trial is exactly when I made my mind up, because I followed the evidence. She told her story. She placed herself as having her own cell phone with her, and they followed the cell phone data. She told them she went to Hawks. I never knew they dug up a dump, a garbage dump, and found what they found until the trial.

[Lauren Bright Pacheco]

But in all fairness, what they found had nothing to do with the case.

[Jade's Great Aunt]

The coordinates were exactly where the dumpster had been and exactly what they had dumped in there was two dumpsters she went to. So anyway, wait, wait.

[Bob Mata]

Tell me. Tell me more about that.

[Lauren Bright Pacheco]

Explain that to us, because that's not something that we've come across.

[Bob Mata]

Yeah, we did not hear that. Like, the only thing that we've heard was that she had stopped in the Hawks. Her story was that she had made her way all the way down to Carbondale to go to Walmart. Right? So we have that lie that's in place. And now when this video from Hawk.

[Lauren Bright Pacheco]

Surfaces, a quick aside. After Julie remembered making the stop, Renee actually called in the hucks tip before the video surfaced.

[Bob Mata]

And so she says, okay, well, I'm at the light. My gas light pops on. I pull into the Hux. I'm going to get gas. I realize I don't have my cards. So then that's when we see the thing, which to me sounds like it was a rather small package. Like, and this is the stuff that I look at critically. I wasn't at the trial, you guys, especially you, Brenda, because I'm assuming Bailey.

[Holly Fry]

As You said you were trying to.

[Bob Mata]

Deal with your college life, you know, probably didn't attend anything.

[Jade's Great Aunt]

I was saying you did not miss a beat.

[Holly Fry]

Okay, so.

[Bob Mata]

So, like.

[Jade's Great Aunt]

So.

[Bob Mata]

But I have not heard anything about a second dumpster at all.

[Jade's Great Aunt]

Around the back of Hucks is a dumpster. So there was something dumped here and then pulled to the. I believe I could be mistaken, but there's a dumpster at the back that I had heard something was put in, and there was the dumpster here. And the only place I could have heard that was at the trial.

[Lauren Bright Pacheco]

I only have that video of her throwing away.

[Jade's Great Aunt]

Yeah. See where she drove, which direction she drove first, because to the backside of Hawks is another dumpster. And then she threw something in that package, and there's an additional dumpster.

[Lauren Bright Pacheco]

Anyway, remember this understanding or misunderstanding of what was discarded at Hucks and that dumpster and what was discovered at the landfill. It is crucial and will be clarified in the court transcripts, which we would soon possess. Back to Brenda.

[Jade's Great Aunt]

I could be misspeaking, but honestly, the dumpster is not even. That's. I just had never seen so much law enforcement comb through garbage like that in my whole life. I never knew they would even do that. I didn't even realize they had the coordinates of your trash, but they did.

[Julia Beverly]

I would say for me, with that. And during the trial, you know, we know it was in a landfill, so it was not tested for DNA. In my opinion, no matter what, it would have been contaminated. And clearly that's what they thought as well.

[Jade's Great Aunt]

It's all contaminated.

[Julia Beverly]

However, if you kind of go back to the mindset and kind of the talk throughout the pre trials and leading up to the jury trial, and what we knew that Julie's family and friends were saying was that the police were not making an effort or they were not doing everything that they could or this or that, and it was all negative to how there wasn't a thorough investigation or this was not done or that was not done. And for me personally, and what I took from that moment during the trial was this was thorough.

[Lauren Bright Pacheco]

Again, digging through the landfill for anything they could possibly infer could be linked to the murder could also be seen as desperation, not dedication back to Bailey.

[Julia Beverly]

And they did try to do everything that they could do throughout this case, and I think that's spoken to in other ways as well. When they're going through blood evidence and they're talking about all the different people that worked on this. This case and how many hours went into it. We've lived this for almost four years at this point, obviously, December 5th will be four years. And going throughout the past four years and attending pre trials and a week of jury trial. And I. Where I sit today, I am confident that Julie Beverly is guilty of this crime.

[Jade's Great Aunt]

So I'm 200% convinced Julie is guilty. I will go to my grave thinking that. But on the other side, I believe in right and I believe in forgiveness. And if somebody missed something and somebody can show me the proof, I will be the first one in line to say, I am so sorry. I would. I. I would. And forgive me for thinking what I've thought or. And I just took the only evidence that I have been presented with.

[Julia Beverly]

I am in the same shoes as Brenda, that if something were to change in the case and she was to be proven innocent or not guilty, we will apologize to her. I can't say we would have a relationship with her necessarily. I think everybody's a little too far gone for that, being realistic. But, you know, we would apologize if that was to be the case. I do not believe that to be so. But I don't want it to come across as blind animosity or just an ignorant will to believe whatever is put in front of you because I do not believe that that was the case for any of us.

[Lauren Bright Pacheco]

The willingness of Jade Beasley's family to extend grace and remain open minded even to the slightest possibility that the investigation might have been flawed speaks volumes about their integrity and character, which aligns deeply with the Christian principles they referenced. During our conversation, Bailey, you did mention that you're religious, and I know, Brenda, that you are as well and that you worked on that victim impact statement together. One thing that I remember was the children will be raised Christian.

[Jade's Great Aunt]

Yes.

[Lauren Bright Pacheco]

If you could just explain that to me and why that was of solace to you.

[Jade's Great Aunt]

After all of this, the family has. I know that a family member owns a pagan store in Salem or whatever, but they believe in witchery or witchcraft. I view that as an occult. There ain't no good witch. There's not a good witch in my mind. Although I did like the witch growing up.

[Bailey]

But.

[Jade's Great Aunt]

But I would just say that, you know, in the mother, Renee. I mean, we hear rumors of all this. Okay. And. But out of the mouths of babes, I will tell you that her own daughter said, I don't like witches. I don't like witches. I don't want to go back there. I don't like a witch. I don't know what they were practicing or not practicing, but Julie didn't really want them to go to church.

[Lauren Bright Pacheco]

That pagan relative of Julie's Brenda is referencing is actually her cousin Nikki. Nikki owns a metaphysical shop in Salem, Massachusetts with her mother Michelle, Renee's sister. Their shop gained attention on social media more than a full year before the trial even began. When Mike Beasley's new girlfriend Brooke shared a screenshot from the website of the Salem shop Nikki and her mother own, showing several ceremonial daggers for sale with the caption quote, I know I've got a few knife collectors on my page. I came across a website that has some interesting blades if you're looking for a new one, unquote. Here's Beverly's cousin Nikki.

[Kara Price]

She is the person who decided to go onto our store website, take the picture out and share. That picture, I think is one incredibly important. Something doesn't sit right with me on that.

[Lauren Bright Pacheco]

This was especially striking to Nikki as Brooke's post would increasingly reveal she was raising Julia Beverly's three youngest children as her own.

[Kara Price]

It just, it's just a little too, too weird that she just wants to be involved in the drama. She posted that picture from our site during this time to rehashing all these emotions and things that happened. Your primary goal should be there. You should be there for your partner rather than going online and making such a tasteless hope because of the way that she was smarter in trying to make that insinuation, just to stir the pot. It's disgusting and it's impurities to me that somebody like that is a key role in both kids lives. I don't know, it's worrisome.

[Lauren Bright Pacheco]

At the time this episode was recorded, I'd made multiple unsuccessful attempts to connect with Brooke dating back to February of 2024. She finally responded in January of 2025, declining comment. But the link to witchcraft also surfaced during the trial when Nikki testified as a character witness on Julie's behalf. Special prosecutor Jennifer Mudge made a point of bringing up the topic in her cross examination.

[Kara Price]

She started focusing on my spiritual faith in my line of employment, which I don't understand how it has anything to do with the trial. Me and my mom run a witchcraft shop in Salem, Massachusetts. We are both practicing pagans. And that was the main focus on my line of questioning from her. It was just a way to try to immediately, I guess, shed a negative light on me. Like I said, the community is very Christian, very, very religious and a little hate to use the word, but a little dumb to other religions or spiritualities that are not Christian. They have this painted picture of what they think witchcraft is. And paganism is. And it seems like they've watched a lot of Disney movies or read too many grim fairy tales. I mean, if they did any sort of research into the city where we are, they put a witch on everything. It's on the side of the police car. It's on their badges. It's everywhere. It's been turned into an entire theme of the city. So it's really kind of normal here for us. It was just kind of odd that that was what pulled focus with me.

[Lauren Bright Pacheco]

The vilification of pagans and witchcraft and the sensationalizing of Salem, Massachusetts isn't overly odd to this woman, though.

[Bailey]

My name is Tricia Pione. I'm the project director for New England's Hidden Histories at the Congregational Library and Archive in Boston. And I have a PhD in early American history, and. And I specialize in the history of witchcraft in New England.

[Lauren Bright Pacheco]

If you could just give me an idea in terms of historical, social, political, religious context, what the environment was at the onset of the Salem witch trials.

[Bailey]

Sure. So in general, Massachusetts was in a real period of turmoil in 1692. They were in the middle of a war. They had overthrown their governor. So when the crisis started, they did not have a legal system that was functioning or a political system that was functioning. And that meant that during the first few months of the crisis, accusations were spreading quickly. They were able to issue arrest warrants and put people in jail, but they could not try them, they could not establish a court until the new royal governor returned to Salem. And so that meant they couldn't hold. So they just held people in jail and started collecting evidence and witness statements, which really kind of spiraled things.

[Lauren Bright Pacheco]

Now, I know that there were witch hunts in other areas, particularly in New England, and, you know, obviously throughout Europe at the time as well. But in terms of the scope of it in Salem, how many people are we actually talking about in terms of being accused and actually being executed?

[Bailey]

So In Salem, about 200 people are accused of witchcraft. 50 people. About 50 people actually confessed and said that they had practiced witchcraft. They had signed a covenant with the devil. And then 19 people were convicted and executed. And then there were several other people who died in jail during the trials. Five people died in jail, and one man, Giles Corey, was pressed to death, not as a sentence, not as an execution, but as. But as part of a fascinating old timey legal system in which because he didn't enter a plea, they tried to force his plea of guilty or not.

[Lauren Bright Pacheco]

Guilty out of him by stacking rocks on it's so horrible. And, you know, it is interesting because you said the number of people who confessed. Is it safe to say that these were coerced confessions?

[Bailey]

Yeah, I think what we know now about false confessions, I think is really interesting to consider how that might have played out in Salem today. It would be illegal to torture someone to get a confession. It's technically illegal to do that, but there are all sorts of coercion that can happen. And actually, torture to produce a confession was also illegal under law at the time in 1692. But their idea of torture and coercion was different from ours. So we do have some evidence that some people were beaten and things that we would consider to be physical torture as well as mental torture, and then confessed.

[Lauren Bright Pacheco]

I'd track Dr. Pione down after being struck by a quote she'd given. You said the 17th century is a lot different than today, but people are essentially the same. It tells us what could happen in a community where someone is hated and seen as a target for frustration and anger.

[Bailey]

Yeah, I still think that's true. I agree with myself. But it is. It's very difficult to understand the past. I think it might actually be impossible for us to ever truly know or understand why people did the things they did. I think that's a tough question. And so because of that, people often prefer a very simple explanation for Salem. They'll often blame teenage girls. They'll often try to create these heroes or these villains in the story. But it's not that easy. I think all that we can really do is try to interpret the evidence. Those interpretations can change. But what we can also do is just consider that people are still essentially the same. People often have the same motivations. People experience grief. People still like to scapegoat each other. So we can look to the past for clues about things that are happening today. And I think we can look at Salem as an example that can tell us some things about what happens when someone becomes a target or a group of people become a target for community frustration or anger. We still have a dominant culture that values some people's lives more than others. We still live in a patriarchal society. Some people today still believe pretty similar ideas about women as they did in the 17th century, and they express it. So I think we can kind of look at some of those parallels. It's hard to draw exact parallels, actually, in some of the writing from the time people like Cotton Mather had this kind of tendency towards conspiratorial thinking, which I think we can also see Today and makes this still relevant today.

[Lauren Bright Pacheco]

For those not familiar, Cotton Mather was a somewhat controversial Puritan clergyman and author in colonial New England who wrote extensively on theological, historical, and scientific subjects.

[Bailey]

Cotton Mather talked about witchcraft as a conspiracy. And I think sometimes today still, like people, would rather believe in a conspiracy than try to actually solve issues or.

[Lauren Bright Pacheco]

Make changes in terms of Salem, Massachusetts. However, there have been profound changes in terms of the way in which witchcraft and the Salem witch trials are framed.

[Bailey]

Since the late 19th century, Salem has started to dip their toe into using this history as a way to promote tourism.

[Lauren Bright Pacheco]

When did that start? Because, you know, Salem, Massachusetts, is to witchcraft and witch hunts what Colonial Williamsburg is to colonization.

[Holly Fry]

Yep.

[Bailey]

Yeah. So I think really the efforts kicked off starting in the 1970s to make it really a big business. And that's had a little bit to do with Salem constantly being portrayed in movies. There's movies from the 1930s that talk about the Salem witch trials. But by the 1970s and the early 80s is when the first museums start to open up in Salem dedicated to the history of witchcraft and the witch trials. I think it's 1982 where the Salem Chamber of commerce starts this haunted happenings, which is tourists come to Salem for Halloween. I know that last year, Salem tourism hit a new record, and over a million people visited Salem in the month of October. So it's big business today, really. Since the 80s, maybe the late 70s, too, people who practice modern witchcraft, whether they're Wiccan or. Or pagan or some other form of modern witchcraft, have been drawn to Salem and have set up there. 1992 was probably a watershed year for Salem in terms of this, because that's the year. It was the 300th anniversary of the witch trials. A lot of historians worked on publishing books, new books, new histories of what happened. So changing our understanding of what happened. That's the year that they dedicated Witch Trials Memorial park in downtown. Some of the modern witches, modern practicing witches who had come to Salem and started living there, protested this new memorial because they felt like it was giving this idea of witchcraft as sinful and wicked and demonic, this historical idea. So they objected to some of the language, that it was unfairly stereotyping their beliefs.

[Lauren Bright Pacheco]

Murder on Songbird Road will continue after this.

[Holly Fry]

He was a boy scout leader, a church deacon, a husband, a father.

[Jade's Great Aunt]

He went to a local church. He was going to the grocery store with us.

[Lauren Bright Pacheco]

He was the guy next door, but.

[Holly Fry]

He was leading a double life.

[Kyle Tequila]

He was certainly a peeping tom looking through the windows, looking at people Fantasizing about what he could do, he then.

[Jade's Great Aunt]

Began entering the houses. He could get into their home, take something and get out and not be caught. He felt very powerful.

[Holly Fry]

He was a monster hiding in plain sight.

[Lauren Bright Pacheco]

Someone killed four members of a family. It just didn't happen here.

[Holly Fry]

Journey inside the mind of one of history's most notorious killers, btk, through the voices of the people who know him best. Listen to Monster BTK on the iHeartRadio app, Apple podcast or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.

[Kyle Tequila]

Do you want to understand an invisible force that's shaping your life? I'm Osvaloshin, one of the new hosts of the long running podcast Tech Stuff. I'm slightly skeptical but obsessively intrigued.

[Kara Price]

And I'm Cara Price, the other new.

[Lauren Bright Pacheco]

Host and I'm ready to adopt early.

[Kyle Tequila]

And often on tech Stuff. We travel all the way from the mines of Congo to the surface of Mars to the dark corners of TikTok to ask and attempt to answer burning questions about technology.

[Lauren Bright Pacheco]

One of the kind of tricks for surviving Mars is to live there long enough so that people evolve into Martians. Like data is a very rough proxy for a complex reality. How is it possible that the world's new energy revolution can be based in.

[Kyle Tequila]

This place where there's no electricity at night?

[Bailey]

Oz and I will cut through the.

[Kara Price]

Noise to bring you the best conversations and and deep dives that will help you understand how tech is changing our world and what you need to know.

[Bailey]

To survive the singularity. So join us.

[Kyle Tequila]

Listen to tech stuff on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts.

[Holly Fry]

It takes one guy out there to say, who's that?

[Lauren Bright Pacheco]

Kyle? Who thinks he can just get on.

[Holly Fry]

A microphone on a podcast and start publicizing this.

[Kyle Tequila]

From iHeart podcasts and Tenderfoot TV comes a new new true crime podcast, Crook County. I got recruited into the mob when I was 17 years old. Meet Kenny, an enforcer for the legendary Chicago outfit.

[Lauren Bright Pacheco]

And that was my mission, to snuff.

[Kyle Tequila]

The life out of this guy. He lived a secret double life as a firefighter paramedic for the Chicago Fire Department. I had a wife and I had two children. Nobody knew anything.

[Lauren Bright Pacheco]

People are dying.

[Bailey]

Is he doing this every night?

[Kyle Tequila]

Torn between two worlds. I'm covering up murders that these cops are doing. He was a freaking crazy man.

[Brenda]

We don't know who he is, really.

[Kyle Tequila]

He is my father and I had no idea about any of this until now. Welcome to Crook County. Series premiere February 11th. Listen for free on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

[Maria Trimarchi]

Welcome to the Criminalia Podcast. I'm Maria Tremarke.

[Holly Fry]

And I'm Holly Fry. Together we invite you into the dark and winding corridors of historical true crime.

[Maria Trimarchi]

Each season we explore a new theme, everything from poisoners and pirates to art thieves and snake oil products and those who made and sold them.

[Holly Fry]

We uncover the stories and secrets of some of history's most compelling criminal figures, including a man who built a submarine as a getaway vehicle. Yep, that's a fact.

[Maria Trimarchi]

We also look at what kinds of societal forces were at play at the time of the crime, from legal injustices to the ethics of body snatching, to see what, if anything, might look different through today's perspective.

[Holly Fry]

And be sure to tune in at the end of each episode as we indulge in custom made cocktails and mocktails inspired by the stories. There's one for every story we tell.

[Maria Trimarchi]

Listen to criminalia on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

[Lauren Bright Pacheco]

Now back to Murder on Songbird Road. Curious. I made the road trip to Salem to visit the Covens Cottage, the shop Nikki shares with her mother Michelle, who is Renee Hightower's younger sister. Hi, how are you? Nice to meet you. Oh my gosh, you look like your sister. Sorry for my freezing cold hand. Michelle shares a strong resemblance to her older sister Renee, though a bit more fair in terms of her coloring and clothing, but their voices and intonations are similar. This is beautiful. What a magical shop. No pun intended. In person, the family owned shop resembles the sort of English apothecary you'd imagine spotting in a scene from Bridgerton or Harry Potter. Dried flowers, organic herbs and artisanal trinkets adorn the walls and ceilings, creating an enchanting atmosphere. Oh, it smells so nice in here too.

[Brenda]

We don't smell it anymore with the research.

[Lauren Bright Pacheco]

According to the store's website, they offer a range of Norse, Germanic, Celtic and nature based traditions with items handcrafted by the owners, local artisans and practitioners. Selections include all natural teas, oils, balms, soaps and salves. In addition to themed gifts, decor and books, the shop exudes a magical vibe that's more whimsical, fairy like charm than ominous. I was going to tease you when we first met. I was going to say, so are you a good witch or a bad witch?

[Brenda]

You must get that all the time Sometimes. Yeah. I think the best way to respond to that is witches are people. So it's just like you have good People and bad people. It's not black magic, white magic, that kind of thing. It's just magic. Whatever the person decides to do with it is that person under those guidelines, I would be a good witch, I suppose.

[Lauren Bright Pacheco]

The shop is nestled on Essex Street, a historic retail stretch in downtown Salem. If you've never visited the small Massachusetts city as Nikki described, it's thoroughly steeped in witchcraft themed tourism. It's no exaggeration to say you'd be hard pressed to cast a stone without hitting a broomstick or a pointy black hat. That said, you'd also be hard pressed to find anything overly touristy or cheesy in this shop. That's a choice, according to Michelle.

[Brenda]

I've always wanted to own a shop with Nikki, my daughter. So our ideal would be to be a nice, peaceful store and help each person that comes in. But in October, it can be really chaotic.

[Lauren Bright Pacheco]

Oh, I mean, it's beautiful. There's something.

[Brenda]

This is our brand of witchcraft.

[Lauren Bright Pacheco]

Yeah. But it's very earthy, very kind of organic feeling. It has absolutely a magical feel to it, but in a very artisan way. And it has a timelessness to it. You feel like you've walked back in time when you walked in the world.

[Brenda]

That's what everybody says.

[Lauren Bright Pacheco]

Yeah.

[Brenda]

It's like walking into another world is how people describe it.

[Lauren Bright Pacheco]

And it's very, very much feels like a celebration of nature, which is what.

[Brenda]

Basically what paganism is. That's why I said if people were to read a book, they would see it has nothing to do with worshiping the devil and all that. It's very much nature based and agricultural based.

[Lauren Bright Pacheco]

As for the association of Witchcraft and Salem being used against her niece Julia Beverly, and in relation to Jade Beasley's murder, Michelle believes it comes with the territory, literally.

[Brenda]

We moved to Southern Illinois when I was 11. My husband was born and raised in Southern Illinois and then we lived there until 2009. So our kids went to school there, grew up there. So, yeah, we've known the whole area.

[Lauren Bright Pacheco]

For someone who hasn't been there or not familiar with the area, how would you categorize it in terms of just the overall mindset of the community? Is it liberal, is it conservative?

[Brenda]

Political wise tends to lean more conservative. It is very much a Bible Belt area when it comes to religion. I think they're very close minded, extremely close minded. And that is part of why we moved away. I'm a practicing witch. I have been since I was 16. And it's misunderstood by a lot of people, not just People in that area, but a lot of people in that area, I won't say all, but a lot of them are unwilling to educate themselves otherwise they are set in their ways. You know, it's satanic. Even though the whole concept of Satan is a Christian belief, it's not pagan in any way. So that guy belongs to them, not us.

[Lauren Bright Pacheco]

Religious debate aside, Michelle's emotions became authentically overwhelming for her when the topic turned to Jade. How do you describe your emotion and where does it come from? What, what is the feeling that you have about all of this?

[Brenda]

Yeah, I would say it's absolute.

[Julia Beverly]

Horror.

[Brenda]

And sympathy for Jade. I was not, I wasn't super close to Jade because of the distance we live, but she's an 11 year old.

[Julia Beverly]

Girl.

[Brenda]

And that is absolutely horrible.

[Lauren Bright Pacheco]

During the trial, Michelle stayed back in Salem to watch Nikki's three children while her daughter traveled to testify on behalf of her cousin Julia Beverly's character. They didn't realize their efforts would backfire and be used against Beverly.

[Brenda]

It all hinged on the shop that we own, where the shop is, what kind of shop it is. I don't know how a shop in Salem, Massachusetts has anything to do with the trial in southern Illinois that Nikki is not a part of, other than being a character witness. Our shop and her profession, her occupation has nothing to do with that. But they seem to harp on that. And that struck Nikki as very odd. But she knew what was going on.

[Lauren Bright Pacheco]

What do you think was going on?

[Brenda]

I think that they were trying to do another swaying of opinions. They're trying to make people believe that Julie is associated with witchcraft in some way. But their idea of what witchcraft is, the people down there associate witchcraft with something evil. So they're trying to associate evil with.

[Lauren Bright Pacheco]

Julie and negate Nikki's character reference because she's a witch. And then when you hear witchcraft murdered 11 year old.

[Brenda]

Right. Well, she had to have done it because she's an evil witch. I mean, I think that was their, their goal there. She's been raised in this, look, her cousin is a witch, they own a shop in Salem, that kind of thing. They don't realize that on a grander scale, this isn't a big thing to people. It's another religion.

[Lauren Bright Pacheco]

It's protected in the absence of actual evidence, it's innuendo and could have been used to railroad a potentially innocent woman.

[Bailey]

Right.

[Brenda]

Which a lot of people seem to be okay with.

[Lauren Bright Pacheco]

On the next murder on Songbird Road, Access to the dispatch records from the day of the murder raises new questions.

[Bob Mata]

It's important if we can find out if in fact they had sent officers out to that area based on the other call saying a dude just ran through my my backyard in all black.

[Lauren Bright Pacheco]

As does another description of an alleged intruder given to authorities. What struck me is this description of whoever called in they were looking for a person in a dark hoodie and dark pants. And Julia Beverly lands on the radar of a formidable, formidable activist. Jason Flom.

[Bob Mata]

Bob Mata Bob Jason, Nice to meet you, man.

[Lauren Bright Pacheco]

Murder on Songbird Road is a production of I Heart Podcasts. Our executive producers are Taylor Chicoin and Lauren Bright Pacheco. Research, writing and hosting by Lauren Bright Pacheco Investigative reporting by Bob Mata and Lauren Bright Pacheco Editing, sound design and original music by Evan Tyre and Taylor Chicoin Additional music by Asher Kurtz Please like subscribe and leave us a review wherever you're listening. You can follow me on all platforms at LaurenBright Pacheco and email the show with thoughts, suggestions or tips at Investigating [e-mail] for more I Heart podcasts, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your favorite shows. Thanks for listening.

[Holly Fry]

He was a Boy Scout leader, a husband, a father. But he was leading a double life. He was a monster hiding in plain sight. Journey inside the mind of one of history's most notorious killers, btk, through the voices of the people who know him best. Listen to Monster BTK on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.

[Maria Trimarchi]

Welcome to the Criminalia Podcast. I'm Maria Trimarchi.

[Holly Fry]

And I'm Holly Fry. Together we invite you into the dark and winding corridors of historical true crime.

[Maria Trimarchi]

Each season we explore a new theme. From poisoners to art thieves, we uncover.

[Holly Fry]

The secrets of history's most interesting figures, from legal injustices to body snatching.

[Maria Trimarchi]

And tune in at the end of each episode as we indulge in cocktails and mocktails inspired by each story.

[Holly Fry]

Listen to criminalia on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts.

[Lauren Bright Pacheco]

It was big news.

[Brenda]

I mean, white girl gets murdered, found in a cemetery.

[Lauren Bright Pacheco]

Big, big news.

[Bailey]

A long investigation stalls until someone changes their story.

[Kara Price]

I, like, saw something that happened.

[Bailey]

An arrest, trial and conviction soon follow.

[Jade's Great Aunt]

He did not kill her. There's no way is the real killer.

[Bailey]

Rightly behind bars or still walking free.

[Jade's Great Aunt]

Did you kill?

[Bailey]

Listen to the Real Killer Season 3 on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

[Kyle Tequila]

My name is Kyle Tequila, host of the shocking new true crime podcast Crook County. I got recruited into the mob when I was 17 years old.

[Lauren Bright Pacheco]

People are dying.

[Bailey]

Is he doing this every night?

[Kyle Tequila]

Kenny was a Chicago firefighter who lived a secret double life as a Mafia hitman. I had a wife and I had two children. Nobody knew anything. He was a freaking crazy man. He was my father, and I had no idea about any of this until now. From Tenderfoot TV and iHeart Podcasts, Crook county is available Tuesday, February 11th. Listen for free on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.