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From Here We Go Again with Kal Penn: Is the Dynasty Dead? with Alexis Coe
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- [00:01]
Kalpen (Host)
We've been hearing about the Kennedys for, well, for decades, but recently there's one guy that's been on our TVs and newspapers and all over social media a lot. Robert F. Kennedy, Jr. You know him currently as the US Secretary of Health and Human Services. He is also a former presidential candidate. And of course, he's the son of Senator and Attorney General Robert F. Kennedy. He's also, as you may have guessed from the name, if you didn't already, the nephew of President John F. Kennedy. So his lineage to the White House runs pretty deep. We're approaching In America the 250th anniversary of the American Revolution. That was the pivotal moment that we, like, openly revolted against the Brits, against the monarchy. So given that that's the case, and we're coming up on 250, why do we continue to fuel political dynasty families?
- [01:01]
Alexis Kohler (Presidential Historian)
We love to think of ourselves as people who don't like dynasties. We don't embrace dynasty. We're a meritocracy. You pull yourself up by your bootstraps. And if we could just go back to the founding era for a second, there were still portraits of King George. Those did not automatically come down because the grift had worked.
- [01:25]
Kalpen (Host)
My guest today is author and presidential historian Alexis Kohler. Alexis and I will talk about the historic, famous families that have served America and what their political lineage reveals about power, myth, and the idea of authenticity in our democracy today.
- [01:44]
Alexis Kohler (Presidential Historian)
Here we Go Again. Again, again, again.
- [01:50]
Kalpen (Host)
Hey, I'm Kalpen, and this is Here We Go Again, a show that takes today's trends and headlines and asks again, why does history keep repeating itself?
- [01:59]
Alexis Kohler (Presidential Historian)
Here we go. This is an iHeart podcast, Guaranteed Human.
- [02:20]
Kalpen (Host)
Alexis Koh is the author of youf Never Forget yout First, a Biography of George Washington, as well as the forthcoming Young Jack, a biography of Of John F. Kennedy, 1917-1957. She is a New York Times bestselling writer and an expert on American dynasties. Welcome, Alexis.
- [02:39]
Alexis Kohler (Presidential Historian)
Thank you for having me.
- [02:40]
Kalpen (Host)
Thanks for being here. And I want to start with you. You're a presidential historian. Can you just tell us a little bit about your career? What got you interested in these very specific 45 dudes?
- [02:52]
Alexis Kohler (Presidential Historian)
It's true, I always say, oh, I don't know, it just sort of evolved over time. But then when you ask what I was up to in the fourth grade, I was reading Contract With America, and also my favorite movie was the American President.
- [03:04]
Kalpen (Host)
You were reading Contract With America in fourth grade?
- [03:07]
Alexis Kohler (Presidential Historian)
Yes, it came out around that time, and I Had just read Democracy in America because my greatest rebellion as a child was sneaking into the adult section, which tells you a lot. And so I would just grab, you know, because of course, that I could be arrested for such high crimes. And so I would just grab whatever was on display. And I think it was. It must have been on display. And I grabbed it. I read it. I was very confused for a little bit, particularly because I did love the American President. And actually, I'm writing a piece. I just talked to Sorkin. I'm writing a piece for Rolling Stone about how that was my favorite movie growing up. And so in retrospect, it makes sense. I was a curator at the nypl, but I always had this love for presidential history, which is not fashionable. So you can't really say that in a department and think you're going to. When I left graduate school, I became a curator at the nypl, and I had always harbored this love of presidential history, but it's not fashionable. Can't really say, oh, I'm going to be a historian. I want to study the presidency. It's like, okay, you're over. That's like more of a Liberty University type of thing. And it's not really accepted, but I just loved it. And so I kept going and finally just, you know, the heart wants what the heart wants. And it's been really lovely to see the response to the way I tell history and to see what it inspires. I'm also a senior fellow at a think tank. And presidential histories is something that isn't really studied at think tanks, unless they're conservative, unless it's sort of a project 2025. And so that's really been fun for me is to sort of think really creatively within these institutions that focus on policy.
- [04:49]
Kalpen (Host)
Oh, cool.
- [04:50]
Alexis Kohler (Presidential Historian)
And then recently, I'm the American history columnist at the New York Times Book Review. And so to have all these jobs, none of which provide health insurance, in conversation with each other, makes for a really exciting career, and one in which I feel, particularly at times like the present, in which we do face a, I think, overarching constitutional crisis. Although I don't like to say these aren't constitutional acts or they're unconstitutional acts, because I think that suggests that. That there's, like, some room for argument that we can interpret what's going on. I think they're anti constitutional, which is a natural answer to how I got into presidential history.
- [05:37]
Kalpen (Host)
I mean, I love that. I also feel like I talk about this endlessly with various guests, but we don't have the best institutional memory when it comes to politics, really anything but especially things like the political system. So your skill set is. I think we're especially lucky to kind of be able to talk to you about it. And. Okay, before I ask you about political dynasties, Contract with America was Newt Gingrich's plan, right?
- [06:02]
Alexis Kohler (Presidential Historian)
Yes.
- [06:03]
Kalpen (Host)
For people who don't know, I'm still floored that you read this in fourth grade.
- [06:08]
Alexis Kohler (Presidential Historian)
I mean, it really messed me up for a while, to be totally honest. I was also president of the Ecology Club. Like, a lot of things didn't work, but we contained multitudes. You know, it was a real Leaves of Grass.
- [06:19]
Kalpen (Host)
That's amazing.
- [06:20]
Alexis Kohler (Presidential Historian)
Year through elementary school.
- [06:22]
Kalpen (Host)
I mean, when I think when I was in fourth grade, I wrote a letter to Bush Senior to save the Owls and was offended when I got like a form letter back with a signed photo. And I just remember being like, I don't want a fucking signed photo of George Bush. I want him to not kill the Owls. Yeah. You are obviously 10 steps ahead to you. How do. Like, is this just nepotism in our DNA? We supposedly hated monarchies, but our political dynasties, in some ways similar. We seem to love a dynasty. Why do you think that is? And why do political dynasties happen in this country specifically?
- [06:56]
Alexis Kohler (Presidential Historian)
You know, we, we love to think of ourselves as people who don't like dynasties. We don't embrace dynasty. We're a meritocracy. You pull yourself up by your bootstraps. It doesn't matter what class or, or, you know, any of these things that we know actually aren't really true. And going back to, if we could just go back to the founding era for a second, there were still portraits of King George. Throughout the very long, almost decades long American Revolution, those did not automatically come down because the grift had worked that. Now we have. We see you go into the DMV and you see Trump's chosen photo for his portrait. And that was true as far as paintings, wherever you went in early America. And also, you know, the, the colonies were isolated from each other purposefully. They even had their own currency so that they wouldn't do exactly what they ended up doing. You just keep them all isolated and uninformed. But, you know, lo and behold, people just love freedom. That was this sort of shared experience that they all had, even if they were angry at him in, in a very paternalistic way. And then I started to think about that when everyone got up so early to watch Will and Kate get married, all my friends were like, I get up really early anyway to work and they asked and I was like, no, I was far more patriotic. I think at the time I was working on my Washington book. But my point is, I don't think Americans dislike the monarchy. I don't think they can envision themselves as answering to some sort of monarchy. But I do think that they are ensorceled by a certain degree, not of opulence, which is, I think, what certain presidents might get wrong, but I think they're ensorceled by this Camelot vision and that is why it is so effective. This was not the case, however, before technology changed, like the AP wire was not a threat to Lincoln, who at the time people were like, that is the weirdest looking man I've ever seen. But I think that it is when you start to see pictures, when there were portraits in, you know, actual daguerreotypes, not just paintings, which people were not going to see in the pub, when someone held up the periodical they had purchased when they went to town and, you know, most people couldn't read, it just was not so people didn't have a visual necessarily for who was the president. And also 19th century presidents, 20th century presidents, they were weirdos who would not do well in this climate, in this media climate. So I think this has changed over time. But I think what's interesting is we have some forgotten dynasties.
- [09:54]
Kalpen (Host)
Yeah. I was about to ask you, who are the earliest political dynasties and then who are the ones we don't think about?
- [09:59]
Alexis Kohler (Presidential Historian)
Well, of course, everyone is always thinking about the Harrisons. They're thinking about William Henry Harrison and his grandson, Benjamin Harrison.
- [10:08]
Kalpen (Host)
I always think about those dudes all the time.
- [10:11]
Alexis Kohler (Presidential Historian)
William Henry Harrison, whh. He won in 1840. And then the thing with William Henry Harrison that everyone knows about, if they know anything and they've ever been to a pub night, like a trivia night, is that he died 31 days after he took office. So it was the shortest presidency. But so you have Henry Harrison, right? That's 1840. And he had become this, this quite famous person through military leadership. And that's something that a lot of these dynasties will have in common. That you will. That not all of them, but a lot of them. And then you have his grandson, Benjamin Harrison, and that's happening, I think, 48 years later. Now we have this thing, a very familiar situation to us. Benjamin Harrison, it's not like his grandfather could, you could really say, oh, well, he was just such a great present, like 31 days. He didn't even really get to pick a cabinet. But then you have Benjamin Harrison, who wins the electoral college but loses the popular vote. So that's sort of this dynastic blueprint that we will see later with the Bushes. But the Harrisons did not build a machine. So a name can be resurrected the same way. The Cheney's name is sort of. It's not really resurrected, but it's certainly transformed half a century later. And so when people ask, you know, will we have another Kennedy? Like, it is not surprising to me that rfk. I mean, it is surprise. Let me. That anyone gave him a paying job, let alone the head of any. Let alone that one is surprising to me. But that that is someone who now represents the Kennedy name is in no way a surprise.
- [11:46]
Kalpen (Host)
Oh, that's interesting. And I do want to ask you about the Kennedys, including him in a minute. I'm curious to hear a little more about. There's the Adams family dynasty, right?
- [11:55]
Alexis Kohler (Presidential Historian)
Yes.
- [11:55]
Kalpen (Host)
It was two presidents, a bunch of civil servants. Did they in any way set the tone for future dynasties? Or were they just yet another, like. Like the Harrisons, like the Bushes, like, it just sort of was what it was, I think.
- [12:07]
Alexis Kohler (Presidential Historian)
John Quincy Adams. By the way, it's Quincy. If you ever just want to a.
- [12:11]
Kalpen (Host)
Z, like a Z sound.
- [12:13]
Alexis Kohler (Presidential Historian)
The town itself is called that. I was corrected by the mayor. Oh, W. Which is a correction I will never forget.
- [12:20]
Kalpen (Host)
Yeah, Quincy.
- [12:21]
Alexis Kohler (Presidential Historian)
There are so many ways to sort of. I have to explain this through quotes and almost memes of the time. So Abigail Adams, who is often quoted alongside the founders because she spilled the tea and had a certain frankness about her. She once wrote to John Adams, you know, not all my geese are swans, which. Which was her way of talking about her children. And the rest of the Addams children were great in their own right, but Quincy was exceptional. He was also, as she then wrote to him when he was heading to Harvard College from living abroad with his father and Benjamin Franklin and serving in Russia as a secretary at like 13, he had basically the equivalent of a fanboy poster in his unique bedroom of George Washington. He was obsessed with George Washington. And Quincy got this letter from his mother saying, okay, now you're going to go to college. You've just had this incredible experience where you've basically learned a lot of languages. You've been it. You've been on the fundraising arm of the American Revolution. Now you're going to Harvard from. You know, you've been given a lot, and a lot is expected. And what emerged is basically, he is the Only male, with the exception of, I would say Beau Biden. He's the only male presidential son who was exceptional and good and like really good. And the rest are just ne' er do wells across the board.
- [13:55]
Kalpen (Host)
Can you talk a little bit about the Kennedys as a political dynasty and what made them stand out so much throughout history? Obviously the one example of just being good at TV at the right time and right place, but it was more than that. If you look at them as a family even today.
- [14:10]
Alexis Kohler (Presidential Historian)
Right, Absolutely. I think it's interesting though, because the Kennedys now would win on name. Caroline Kennedy, who we don't really talk about enough, I think is notice when I talked about the ne' er do well sons of the founders and of all presidents, with these few exceptions, she's one of the great ones of the daughters and she has carried on a lot of this. But Kennedy was not a sure thing. Kennedy's dad was the ambassador to the Court of St. James and that was a big deal. Joe Sr. Joe Kennedy, he was a very successful businessman. He's the kind of guy who for some reason knew to sell high six months before the Great Depression. He was just always there, right time, right place. But what that always suggests as well, and we see this a lot now as sort of tech leaders, is that there is a shrewdness that doesn't always go well with politics. But I think what's really interesting about the Kennedys is you have Joe Kennedy. He is appointed at the most pivotal moment. You have World War I, World War II, and Joe Sr. Had not served and was not a big fan of World War I. But when Joe Senior was at the Court of St. James, it was as World War II was very obviously going to happen. Hitler is invading this country and that country. And Kennedy actually goes, he takes a year off from college and he goes and he does research for his thesis. He goes to Israel. It's so amazing. He writes a letter, he's like, I don't know, like maybe a two state solution. He's like just throwing, you know, just spitballing here. And he is 20, 21. He's really seeing a lot of these things on the ground. And in fact there is a boat. He has to go some work for his dad as far as helping people who've been attacked by Germans. And he comes back and he writes a book which is his thesis and it's, it's pretty good. It's certainly, I think, better than the one that won him a Pulitzer later. But I'm sort of I'm, I'm going slowly because I'm showing that at this time that he is publishing his college thesis that becomes a New York Times bestseller While England slept. His father is forced to resign by FDR because he basically said it was basically like, I don't know, let's see who wins. Like, are we really going to get involved in the whole morality thing? You have to remember that at this point, Joe Sr. As the ambassador, he knows what's going on. He knows about concentration camps. He does not care. Kennedy starts to break away during this time and this is, I think, what makes the legacy, because when he starts to get into politics, this period, this name is not helping him, it's hurting him. But what Kennedy does is he sets out and he makes a name for himself as a war hero. He, over time evolved and he put in the time. So people think, oh, Kennedy, his family money bought the presidency and he became president. It wasn't that quick. He spent 11 years in Congress and we're talking about, we've already named two New York Times best selling books. He's going to win a Pulitzer in 1957. He's received a Purple Heart for a very, very impressive show of bravery. So that is what I think really built the Kennedy legacy. And then of course, I think his funeral, his procession, all of these things really worked. But it was based on the person and it was based on his own evolution over time. I don't think that, however, works for everyone because we've had some Kennedys who have not been appointed. Let's, let's make sure that we make that clear. They have not been appointed. They have won elections, they have served, but they have not been real power players. And Lincoln's son tried to run for office and that was a disaster.
- [18:11]
Kalpen (Host)
And it was a disaster because what people just didn't, they didn't think you earned it.
- [18:17]
Alexis Kohler (Presidential Historian)
That would be the normal conclusion. It turns out that if you try to have your mother committed in a very public fashion when it's obviously a kangaroo court, and then she gets out a year later because it turns out you only wanted to put her away so that you could run for office and also have control and access to her money, Americans don't like that.
- [18:36]
Kalpen (Host)
So somebody who didn't know how optics worked.
- [18:39]
Alexis Kohler (Presidential Historian)
Yes.
- [18:40]
Kalpen (Host)
I'll be back with my conversation with Alexis Koh right after this break.
- [18:48]
Ryder Strong (Podcast Host)
This is Ryder Strong and I have a new podcast called the Red Weather.
- [18:52]
Alexis Kohler (Presidential Historian)
It was many and many a year ago in a kingdom by the sea.
- [18:57]
Ryder Strong (Podcast Host)
In 1995. My neighbor Anna Trainor disappeared from a commune.
- [19:01]
Kalpen (Host)
It was hard to wrap your head around. It was nature and trees and praying and drugs. So, no, I am not your guru.
- [19:10]
Ryder Strong (Podcast Host)
And back then, I lied to my parents, I lied to police, I lied to everybody.
- [19:15]
Alexis Kohler (Presidential Historian)
There were years, Ryder, where I could not say your name.
- [19:18]
Ryder Strong (Podcast Host)
I've decided to go back to my hometown in Northern California, interview my friends, family, talk to police, journalists, whomever I can to try to find out what actually happened.
- [19:27]
Narrator/Promoter for Roald Dahl Podcast
Isn't it a little bit weird that they obsess over hippies in the woods and not the obvious boyfriend?
- [19:31]
Alexis Kohler (Presidential Historian)
They have had this case for 30 years.
- [19:34]
Kalpen (Host)
I'll teach you sons of.
- [19:36]
Narrator/Promoter for Roald Dahl Podcast
Come around here with my wife. Boom, boom.
- [19:39]
Ryder Strong (Podcast Host)
This is the red weather. Listen to the red Weather on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
- [19:48]
Narrator/Promoter for Roald Dahl Podcast
You know Roald Dahl, the writer who thought up Willy Wonka, Matilda, and the bfg. But did you know he was also a spy?
- [19:56]
Alexis Kohler (Presidential Historian)
Was this before he wrote his stories? It must have been.
- [19:59]
Narrator/Promoter for Roald Dahl Podcast
Our new podcast series, the Secret World of Roald Dahl is a wild journey through the hidden chapters of his extraordinary, controversial life. His job was literally to seduce the wives of powerful Americans. What? And he was really good at it. You probably won't believe it either.
- [20:13]
Alexis Kohler (Presidential Historian)
Okay, I don't think that's true.
- [20:15]
Narrator/Promoter for Roald Dahl Podcast
I'm telling you, the guy was a spy. Did you know Dahl got cozy with the Roosevelts, played poker with Harry Truman, and had a long affair with a congresswoman? And then he took his talents to Hollywood, where he worked alongside Walt Disney and Alfred Hitchcock before writing a hit James Bond film. How did this secret agent wind up as the most successful children's author ever? And what darkness from his covert past seeped into the stories we read as kids? The true story is stranger than anything he ever wrote. Listen to the Secret World of Roald Dahl on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
- [20:49]
Kalpen (Host)
A little closer to the present. The two big sort of dynasties, the Bushes and the Clintons, in what ways are they similar to the Kennedys, and how are they different?
- [20:58]
Alexis Kohler (Presidential Historian)
The Bushes, I think, are so interesting. One of my favorite things to do is if I'm giving a lect going to an event and it's tied to something, I like to throw people off with a primary source. It's important to remember presidents were people, too, and they're human and they have lives. And so I love to start with a couple primary sources. When it comes to the Bushes, I always start with Senator Prescott bush, who is HW's father, so W's grandfather. And I love to show the stationary, the letterhead from the first planned parenting fundraiser because Prescott Bush was the secretary. And then of course, you have W, who is an evangelical who revokes access to abortion and any sort of birth control. And they're such an interesting family in that way. And then in the middle you have H.W. bush, who was of course a CIA director, but when he was the ambassador to the un, before he was a vice president, before he was a president, he talked about family planning so much that the media nicknamed him Rubbers.
- [22:04]
Kalpen (Host)
Oh, no way.
- [22:05]
Alexis Kohler (Presidential Historian)
So now that we've reviewed the Bushes through the lens of sex and family planning, I think that they are a fascinating case study. Their authenticity, if you will, which is I think so important to any of these, particularly to a dynasty, but to any sort of successful president, which is one of my projects at New America, this think tank where I'm a senior fellow, has been about how should a president. And one of the things that I kept thinking about that I wrestled with, which you might not think, because I just sort of had a lot of fun talking about the Bushes, which is that authenticity is something that, that voters really see in Trump and they just do not see it in any Democrat right now, you know, full stop, don't need to review all of them. And so the thing that's interesting about the Bushes is they are authentic in, in the way that everyone knows they're rich, the same way with the Kennedys, but they offer this like elite continuity dressed in like Texas populism. Right. So they're like ranchers and they're. But they're buying sports teams.
- [23:15]
Kalpen (Host)
Right.
- [23:16]
Alexis Kohler (Presidential Historian)
But it's another case in which there's an expiration date. It's, there's a limited warranty kind of on the dynasty because of course, Jeb Bush got absolutely demolished right by Trump. He was humiliated. So dynasties don't always die with a loss. The Bushes could come back, but they certainly. That one left a mark. That, that defeat left a mark.
- [23:38]
Kalpen (Host)
Yeah. I mean, and that raises, you know, your, your assessment of the Bushes, the fact that they were well known to be wealthy and buying all the sports teams and everything. I mean, the, one of the sort of go to's that I keep hearing about is like, well, you know, most, most of their base would sort of view them as. That's the, that's the aspirational thing is we, we're all going to be, if we work hard, we're all going to be multimillionaires or billionaires who can buy sports teams. The reality of. Of American capitalism, of course, is that some very, very, very few will and most will not. But that, that, I don't know if you want to call it a fiction or a hope or a combination or just the aspirational storytelling of what is possible in America. And certainly it is just not for everybody. I'm wondering if that helped gain public trust at the right time and that popularity. And I'm also thinking about the Clinton, the Clinton dynasty following the Bushes. And you'd mentioned Jeb, and I'm thinking Bill Clinton. But then Hillary couldn't. Right. I mean, she very successful as a senator for New York, but then couldn't land, couldn't even get the nomination the first time at least. What do you think helped gain public trust and popularity? And were the Clintons a response to the Bushes in the popular eye? I guess.
- [25:01]
Alexis Kohler (Presidential Historian)
Well, it's interesting, we think it's so conspicuous, the friendship between Michelle Obama and W. And so it's often remarked upon. But what is less obvious, but still very much there, is the relationship between the Bushes and the Clintons. Yep, they're chummy. They really like each other. And there's a, you know, I think it's a clip. It certainly played out like one in my mind often, which is Clinton says, you know, we were friends before the election and we were friends after the election. I think he might say we were friends after I beat him. And so I think there are a couple things going on. One, you have the Bushes were authentic in their connection to the land, whether it be Connecticut or Texas, because let's not forget, you know, they're also all male. And then you have the Clintons and you have Clinton who could. And Clinton was more of a centrist. He left wildly popular, though we always forget that he left with like bonkers approval ratings. But Hillary seemed, you know, when I think about that in retrospect, and I much prefer my history dead. So this is a little challenging to me. But when I think about it in retrospect, I think a lot about initial reactions to Hillary Clinton serving a role in Clinton's government, that she was working on healthcare, she was working on things, these things that have been really important to a lot of presidents. There was resistance to her almost immediately. She's a woman, she is very smart. So I think that she gave off elite for all W's ridiculous W isms. You know, how he would just mess up a sentence or say, you know, fool me once all these things. He was himself. And Bill Clinton can't not be himself. Hillary Clinton does not strike people as authentic. And I think it's just because she's. It's. She's uncomfortable. I don't. I think when, you know, oh, but her emails, when you read those emails, it was like, can we help out this young girl? Can we do this? Can we do that? But she's not. She's so uncomfortable in front of the camera. She would have done great, aside from the whole woman part. In the 18th or 19th century, when.
- [27:26]
Kalpen (Host)
There were no emails.
- [27:27]
Alexis Kohler (Presidential Historian)
Right. When there are no emails. No, you know, very few recordings. Maybe radio. Yeah.
- [27:34]
Kalpen (Host)
And I. I wondered, you know, that wasn't necessarily a barometer on the tide turning away from dynasties. I would point more to kind of the 2007, 2008 Democratic primary season. You know, you've. You study this stuff. What turned the tide on these dynasties? And do you think that American values have changed since the peak of the fame of especially these two dynasties?
- [28:00]
Alexis Kohler (Presidential Historian)
Well, here's the funny thing. I. I'm not sure if I buy it.
- [28:05]
Kalpen (Host)
Go on. This is interesting.
- [28:07]
Alexis Kohler (Presidential Historian)
I think that, if anything, Clinton exposed the limits of dynastic inevitability, because by that point, she had proven herself in her own right. She had been a secretary of state.
- [28:18]
Kalpen (Host)
Yeah.
- [28:18]
Alexis Kohler (Presidential Historian)
One of the most difficult jobs. I would say it's in some ways more difficult than being the president. I think there's this limit that we see. So I think that a name can be a symbol of continuity, of power, of proven track record, but I think it can also tap into an establishment fatigue that has been evolving for some time. We've changed in terms of what we think of as politicians, social media. I mean, these are all. It sounds like just the Buz words everyone always says, but it's true. Right. Because now. Now we have dynasty by inheritance, not service. And I think that's what's different is everyone. We have just discussed, from the Harrisons, you know, Civil War, Mexican American War, territorial war, Benjamin Harrison was on it. And then all of a sudden, we don't have that being really important to people anymore. You know, service is not something. In fact, we have, you know, Trump regularly insult people who have served the country. And so Fred Trump built a fortune. You know, Donald Trump lost a lot of that fortune, but he built the brand and then a presidency. And so his children, I think what's interesting about them is you're seeing. They're testing whether the loyalty can outlast the chaos. And so you see some of them, and in particular, Don Jr. And I guess the other one, too, through his wife. But you have some. And then Ivanka is her own deal, but you. You have them either leaning in or out. What's different about them is not only is it inheritance, not service, but that it is so much about branding. And so if you were to ask me, just on the basis of the norms, no one has ever benefited off the presidency in this way.
- [30:23]
Kalpen (Host)
It sounds like this is the first time it's been so transparent. Not flagrant, but they seem to kind of be owning it.
- [30:31]
Alexis Kohler (Presidential Historian)
Yes, you've.
- [30:32]
Kalpen (Host)
You've articulated the ways in which the Trump family fits or doesn't fit the narrative about political dynasties in this country. But how jarring is it historically that they're so transparent? What does that mean for us? And what's the risk there of let. Let's say the kids want to run for office, or there's a whole school of thought about them wanting to run?
- [30:58]
Alexis Kohler (Presidential Historian)
You know, I think, again, it's a. Can the. Can the name outlast the chaos? If you'd asked me that question after, I don't know, he incited an insurrection, I would say no. But now it's a different ball game. And so I think, you know, unlike the Bushes or the Kennedys or the Harrisons, for sure, the Trump dynasty isn't built on public service. And so it's built specifically on spectacle, grievance. And I need a third, of course, omnipresence. Right. You can't get rid of them. You can't escape them. And so I think that is different. But, no, the presidency has never come with a merch table more egregious even than the sneakers and the Bitcoin and this. And that is the buying of citizenship, I think, has been really difficult for me personally, just the idea of it. I was talking to. This is a casual sentence. I was talking to Aaron Sorkin, and he was saying that he's sort of bored with the Trumps. Right. It's a nightmare he doesn't want to address, in part because he's so invested in this grand idea of the presidency. And all his characters are always these people who are just trying to do their best. They believe in something, and it's a real quandary all the time, but also kind of do some terrible things. And so I think that the Trump dynasty has to. Well, he has to make it the full four years or not, because, let's face it, he will be. He'll be. He'll be older than Biden when he leaves office.
- [32:30]
Kalpen (Host)
He's so energetic, though.
- [32:32]
Alexis Kohler (Presidential Historian)
Is he?
- [32:33]
Ryder Strong (Podcast Host)
Yes.
- [32:34]
Kalpen (Host)
I'm not saying he's not crazy, but he is.
- [32:36]
Alexis Kohler (Presidential Historian)
Yeah.
- [32:36]
Kalpen (Host)
He is objectively very energetic.
- [32:39]
Alexis Kohler (Presidential Historian)
He's very energetic, yes.
- [32:41]
Kalpen (Host)
But I mean, Emmy nominated entertainer, I.
- [32:44]
Alexis Kohler (Presidential Historian)
Should not be saying this out loud, but I've already, you know, I said a lot of things to Congress, so it's fine. Trump is presiding over our 250th, which I know just sounds like a lot of noise to people. Just, by the way, is something I've been looking forward to my entire career, and it's just completely ruined. But I have been really excited about and I think that we will see it more next year as it, you know, when we actually go into it. Trump has complete control over this. So I think the way that he cast this and the way that he can align the Trump name with the 250th and make it synonymous with America is what frightens me the most. So it may be the dynasty to end all dynasties, or it may be a real moment. We're not good at reckoning, we're not good at accountability. If we had with Nixon, with, I don't know, the Civil War. As a historian, I don't like to predict the future. I don't like to imagine something that, you know, I'm not really Philip K. Dicking our American history here, but I do think that had their reconstruction not been under the purview of Andrew Johnson, had Nixon not been pardoned a month into Ford's presidency, that, that we would feel differently about Trump. But we have gotten used to this. We've been conditioned over time, and that's very effective.
- [34:15]
Kalpen (Host)
I'll be back with my conversation with Alexis Koh right after this break.
- [34:22]
Ryder Strong (Podcast Host)
This is Rider Strong and I have a new podcast called the Red Weather.
- [34:26]
Alexis Kohler (Presidential Historian)
It was many and many a year ago in a kingdom by the sea.
- [34:31]
Ryder Strong (Podcast Host)
In 1995, my neighbor Anna Traynor disappeared from a commune.
- [34:35]
Kalpen (Host)
It was hard to wrap your head around. It was nature and trees and praying and drugs. So, no, I am not your guru.
- [34:44]
Ryder Strong (Podcast Host)
And back then, I lied to my parents, I lied to police, I lied to everybody.
- [34:49]
Alexis Kohler (Presidential Historian)
There were years, Ryder, where I could not say your name.
- [34:52]
Ryder Strong (Podcast Host)
I've decided to go back to my hometown in Northern California, interview my friends, family, talk to police, journalists, whomever I can to try to find out what actually happened.
- [35:01]
Narrator/Promoter for Roald Dahl Podcast
Isn't it a little bit weird that they obsess over hippies in the woods and not the obvious boyfriend?
- [35:05]
Alexis Kohler (Presidential Historian)
They have had this case for 30 years.
- [35:08]
Kalpen (Host)
I'll teach you sons of.
- [35:10]
Narrator/Promoter for Roald Dahl Podcast
Come around here with my wife. Boom, boom.
- [35:13]
Ryder Strong (Podcast Host)
This is the red weather. Listen to the red Weather on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
- [35:23]
Narrator/Promoter for Roald Dahl Podcast
You know Roald Dahl, the writer who thought up Willy Wonka, Matilda, and the bfg. But did you know he was also a spy?
- [35:30]
Alexis Kohler (Presidential Historian)
Was this before he wrote his stories? It must have been.
- [35:33]
Narrator/Promoter for Roald Dahl Podcast
Our new podcast series, The Secret World of Roald Dahl is a wild journey through the hidden chapters of his extraordinary, controversial life. His job was literally to seduce the wives of powerful Americans.
- [35:44]
Kalpen (Host)
What?
- [35:44]
Narrator/Promoter for Roald Dahl Podcast
And he was really good at it. You probably won't believe it either.
- [35:47]
Alexis Kohler (Presidential Historian)
Okay, I don't think that's true.
- [35:49]
Narrator/Promoter for Roald Dahl Podcast
I'm telling you, the guy was a spy. Did you know Dahl got cozy with the Roosevelts, played poker with Harry Truman, and had a long affair with a congresswoman? And then he took his talents to Hollywood, where he worked alongside Walt Disney and Alfred Hitchcock before writing a hit James Bond film. How did this secret agent wind up as the most successful children's author ever? And what darkness from his covert past seeped into the stories we read as kids? The true story is stranger than anything he ever wrote. Listen to the Secret World of Roald Dahl on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
- [36:24]
Kalpen (Host)
Okay, so going back to RFK Junior. What do you make of the black sheep of political dynasties, RFK Jr?
- [36:33]
Alexis Kohler (Presidential Historian)
It's just amazing. I love, you know, Legally Blonde? There's that line where she says, you know, or someone says about her. It's like she just woke up one day and decided, I think I'll go to law school today. And that's kind of how it is with someone like rfk or where they just, all of a sudden, they have no history of service. They've lived, let's say, five, six decades in this country.
- [37:02]
Kalpen (Host)
Yeah.
- [37:03]
Alexis Kohler (Presidential Historian)
On boards, you know, divorcing wives when they have cancer, that sort of thing. But they've never actually done anything. They haven't served. And then they decide, oh, I'm. I'm going to take this incredibly important position. I've never worked in a real office. I was a curator at the nypl. When I go to New America, I just steal snacks and give talks. That's it. So I would never think that I could manage people, my poor research assistants, like, God help them. But these people think, oh, yes, I should run for president. I should, you know, be in charge of incredibly influential and consequential entities within government. So I think the problem with the dynasties more than anything else is. And this, this is particular to Kennedy, though, to RFK Jr. Because the rest of them don't have this. His siblings, the whole lot of them, because they are a little army within themselves. They have all said he should not hold the position that he holds. Caroline Kennedy, who does a remarkable job of never being in the media if she doesn't have to be. She wrote a letter and that sounds like no. A letter. That's a big thing. She's come out and said he is a deeply troubled person. What I think is, if we step back. Trump loves to reward loyalty, but he also likes to demolish the competition. I've never. It's like being, you know, it's awful to be with someone and they're jealous of someone you dated in the eighth grade or something. Trump is jealous of every president ever. He's jealous of James K. Polk. He's jealous of Wilson. He's probably jealous of Hoover, who no one really thinks of as in a positive light. And so there's no one who's a greater challenge to him than the Kennedys. But to sort of degrade the Kennedy name. So you have the Rose Garden, which was a big thing. You have usaid. I would not be surprised if the Peace Corps happened soon. He wouldn't get off the plane. When Obama was awarded the Profiles and Courage Award In, I think, 2016 or 2017 by the JFK Library, Trump was so mad that his plane had landed at the same time. He didn't even want to be on the same, like, paper, the same spread. The Kennedy center used to be bipartisan. He's replaced them. Now it's just MAGA only. And people are always, you know, his sycophants, they're always sort of nominating Peace Prize and Trump Day, but now they want to change the name of the Kennedy center to the Trump Center. And I think nothing gives him greater pleasure. And so I do think, and this is me really just sort of taking a risk here, in my personal opinion, not in my professional capacity, but also a little bit in my professional capacity. I think that he is attempting to obliterate the brand because he finds it really frustrating. You know, it's a. It's, you have Camelot versus American carnage. There's no way he's going to beat them in words, in looks, in elegance. I don't know about money. I haven't done those numbers. But they certainly didn't have to work in the way that he does. They were better looking. They're in better shape. They were better, better, better. And so I think that he's, the only way he knows how to deal with them is to cannibalize them. And so that's, that's a little bit of R.F. key Jr.
- [40:47]
Kalpen (Host)
Okay, I see, I see what you're saying. The last question I wanted to add, what do you. Maybe this is what do you want personally, since you were forthcoming with personal versus professional, but also professionally, what do you want? Slash, what do you think the future of American dynasties will be? Who's the next JFK in terms of the power of the myth, in your view?
- [41:12]
Alexis Kohler (Presidential Historian)
You know, my job has gotten really spicy in the last eight to 12 years.
- [41:16]
Kalpen (Host)
Yeah, I bet. And look, now you're on a podcast. I'm asking you for clickbaity predictions. But also, I mean, genuinely, we're at a pivotal moment, like you mentioned, the anti constitutional crisis in your words. So it's relevant now more than even before about this idea of dynasty.
- [41:33]
Alexis Kohler (Presidential Historian)
I think dynasty is a certain advantage, just like anything. But as we've already talked about, you have to back it up with concerted effort and action. So as much as we think of Donald Trump being woefully, really emphasis on woefully underprepared and then willfully underprepared in a lot of ways for the presidency, he's been running for office and building this brand more or less since I was a child. I first met him in home alone. And I think that that is influential in a way that, but it has to be backed up by something. So even though Trump is not well informed, because you can't be if you don't read. And General Mattis, I think, said he's functionally illiterate, which means that, you know, if you don't read, you can have information. You can, but it's just going to be really superficial. And he just does not understand a lot of things. Has absolutely no respect or understanding for American history. And so I think the move now, unfortunately is, I think authenticity is the most. We've seen this in New York. Mamdani. Right. We have a mayoral candidate who is running on platforms that absolutely terrify, slash, almost turn people on. So there's like a group that's just like, reminds me of Obama in 2008, 2007, where like every grandparent was like, ah, then you have, and then you have them getting used to it and realizing it's fine. And actually he's really centrist and all of these things. And that's not true now with we Have a candidate who is very much like a morgue. How can I explain it more? You know, this little place called New York City. I don't know if the rest of the country is aware of it, but he is basically like, aoc. If she was what everyone wants her to be. So if she was the socialist nightmare that they claim that she is. And I think that the most important thing would be authenticity and someone who is somehow informed, hopefully more than Trump. But I was thinking about it, you know, a Matthew McConaughey, who is really actually done the work, could a hundred percent sweep primaries. And the problem, I think, with a lot of celebrities or people who come from some sort of prominent background is they just think, oh, I'm out. That didn't work. I'm gonna quit. Whereas Trump, you have to be shameless. You have to really take all the hits, which is usually why, second term, they're all bitter. Yeah, they're all bitter and sensitive. No matter. Even if it looks like they had a pretty nice ride. And that, I guess, is my takeaway, is the Trumps are not forever. Because as you said, when I say Trump is getting older, let's see if he makes it. But you were talking about his stamina and his endurance, and that is what I think is most important. Dynasty would be third on that list. First would be authenticity, then stamina, and then the last Kennedy. He had his father's name. They definitely knew he was rich, he was good looking, he was single, all of these things, Purple heart. But the reason he won was probably none of those things. That man campaigned like it was his primary job and like he loved it. And the whole family wasn't on it. People just need to own whatever. If we've learned anything from Trumpet's short, a name, some notoriety, own it. Hillary should have owned those emails. She should have been. What's the big deal? So someone who just really refuses to leave the room, well, maybe the last one standing will win in some ways.
- [45:20]
Kalpen (Host)
Endurance.
- [45:21]
Alexis Kohler (Presidential Historian)
Yeah. It's like anything. Isn't life just an endurance? In the starkest and most negative way to describe it, life is an endurance challenge. And so Jeb Bush, really, to my mind, he was not only humiliated, but he took the humiliation and he sort of retreated with it. And I don't know what would have happened if any of them not just owned their liabilities, but was like, you're the liability.
- [45:50]
Kalpen (Host)
Yeah. Alexis, thank you so much for joining us and all your insights. I'm super fascinated. And I'm gonna start by reading Contract with America for the first time.
- [46:04]
Alexis Kohler (Presidential Historian)
Okay, well, maybe, maybe also read you never forget your first. And then we'll. We could have, like a nice little book club. But I'm, I'm glad. You're welcome, Newt.
- [46:14]
Kalpen (Host)
Thank you so much.
- [46:15]
Alexis Kohler (Presidential Historian)
Thanks. I really enjoyed it.
- [46:16]
Kalpen (Host)
And I'm gonna. I'm gonna set my dvr. What time is your hand? That was Alexis Koh, an American presidential historian, author, podcaster, and media commentator. If you want to hear more from Alexis, you can read you never forget your first, which is a biography of George Washington, and her next book, young Jack, which digs into the early life of John F. Kennedy. You can also follow Alexis at alexisco. Here we go again as a production of iHeart podcasts and snafu Media in association with New Metric Media. Our executive producers are me, Cal Penn, Ed Helms, Mike Falbo, Alyssa Martino, Andy Kim, Pat Kelly, Chris Kelly, and Dylan Fagan. Caitlin Fontana is our producer and writer. Dave Shumka is our producer and editor. Additional writing from Megan Tan. Our consulting producer is Raman Borsalino. Tori Smith is our associate producer. Theme music by Chris Kelly. Logo by Matt Gossen. Legal review from Daniel Welch, Caroline Johnson, and Megan Halson. Special thanks to Glenn Basner, Isaac Dunham, Adam Horn, Lane Klein, and everyone at iHeart podcasts, but especially Will Pearson, Carrie Lieberman, and Nikki Etor. Thanks for listening. Listening. See you next week.
- [47:32]
Alexis Kohler (Presidential Historian)
This is an I heart podcast. Guaranteed human.