Two Women

Summary

Murder on the Towpath with Soledad O’Brien: Episode Summary – "Two Women"

Release Date: June 11, 2025
Host/Author: MyCultura and iHeartPodcasts
Hosted by: Soledad O'Brien

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Introduction to an Unsolved Mystery

Murder on the Towpath delves into one of America’s most enigmatic unsolved cases: the 1964 murder of Mary Pinchot Meyer. This episode, titled "Two Women," explores the intersecting lives of Mary Meyer and Dovey Johnson Roundtree, highlighting themes of race, class, and justice that echo into today’s socio-political climate.

Mary Pinchot Meyer’s Tragic End

The episode opens with the somber recounting of Mary Meyer’s death:

Soledad O’Brien [02:21]: "Two days after her death, Mary was buried in Washington D.C. it would have been her 44th birthday. A bishop led the service and remembered his friend Mary with fondness... Did the bishop believe this was the act of one man?"

Mary Meyer, a wealthy socialite and art patron, was murdered during her daily walk on the towpath in broad daylight. Her murder shocked the nation, partly due to her connections with influential figures, including President John F. Kennedy. The bishop’s prayer for Mary's killer added layers of complexity and sorrow to the event.

Dovey Johnson Roundtree: A Barrier-Breaking Defender

Enter Dovey Johnson Roundtree, a pioneering African American civil rights lawyer who took on the defense of Ray Crump, the man accused of Mary’s murder. Her involvement was not just a legal battle but a significant stand against racial prejudices of the time.

Soledad O’Brien [07:03]: "Dovey was Velma's minister."

Roundtree's character is vividly portrayed through testimonials from those who knew her:

Patricia Bradford [09:13]: "She never bragged about what she did or who she was... And she really was."

Velma Speight [11:05]: "She was very soft spoken and not one of the kind of people who is always has to be seen or always has a lot to say about something."

The Intersection of Legal and Spiritual Leadership

Dovey Roundtree was not only a formidable attorney but also a respected minister at Allen Chapel Church, part of the African Methodist Episcopal (AME) Church, the first national black church founded by former slave Richard Allen.

Soledad O’Brien [08:22]: "Look, it was classic Dovey. Just because something hadn't been done before didn't mean she wouldn't do it."

Her dual roles allowed her to influence both the legal sphere and her religious community, providing a sanctuary for those facing injustice.

Building Connections: Dovey and Charlene Stevenson

A pivotal moment in the episode is the formation of a deep familial bond between Dovey and Charlene Pritchett Stevenson, Dovey’s daughter. Their relationship highlights Roundtree’s nurturing nature and her desire for family.

Charlene Pritchett Stevenson [13:32]: "It was just something that the Lord ordained... It was a perfect match, and I thank God for that."

Their interactions underscore the personal sacrifices and emotional strength Roundtree exhibited throughout her life.

Legacy and Recognition of Dovey Roundtree

Despite her significant contributions, Dovey Roundtree remained relatively unknown compared to other historical figures like Rosa Parks or Ruth Bader Ginsburg. The episode critically examines why her legacy hasn’t received the widespread recognition it deserves.

Patricia Bradford [21:47]: "For most of history, women have been left out in that history, and especially black women."

Soledad O’Brien [22:10]: "The gatekeepers of history have traditionally been white men... It's almost as if this is the final hurdle for Dovey."

Roundtree’s obituary in The New York Times is highlighted as a posthumous acknowledgment of her impactful life:

Soledad O’Brien [20:35]: "But reading it, I also felt a bit sad. I kept asking myself, how did I not know about this woman?"

Mary Meyer’s Artistic Legacy: A Veiled Chapter

Parallel to Roundtree’s story is the quest to preserve Mary Meyer’s artistic legacy. Despite Mary’s active career as an artist, most of her works remain inaccessible, shrouded in mystery.

Helene Posner [33:03]: "There are certain artists who are anointed or a part of this canon... Mary Meyer is one of those artists."

Curators Helene Posner and Sue Scott discuss their efforts to locate and exhibit Mary’s paintings, facing challenges as many pieces reside in private collections or are unaccounted for.

Helene Posner [34:08]: "It's like, it's this sort of search for truth, like, who does have it, who doesn't have them, if they have it and they don't want to share it, why?"

The Unsolved Puzzle and Continuing Impact

The intertwining narratives of Dovey Roundtree and Mary Meyer present a compelling study of two strong, independent women whose lives and legacies continue to inspire and provoke questions.

Soledad O’Brien [42:32]: "What would you make of what you just read on the plaque?"

The episode posits that while Roundtree successfully defended Ray Crump, Mary Meyer’s murder remains unresolved, leaving a lingering cloud of doubt and conspiracy around her death.

Closing Reflections: Preserving Memories and Legacies

Soledad O’Brien emphasizes the importance of remembering both women beyond their tragic ends:

Soledad O’Brien [36:55]: "I felt a sense of urgency in telling their stories. They're too important to forget."

The episode concludes with a call to honor their memories by sharing their stories, ensuring their contributions to justice, art, and civil rights are not forgotten.

Soledad O’Brien [43:30]: "If we don't tell their stories, their deaths are final."

Conclusion

"Two Women" serves as a poignant reminder of the intertwined lives of Mary Pinchot Meyer and Dovey Johnson Roundtree. Through detailed narratives, personal testimonials, and historical context, the episode underscores the enduring significance of their stories in understanding America's complex history of race, justice, and memory.

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Notable Quotes:

• Soledad O’Brien [02:21]: "Did the bishop believe this was the act of one man?"
• Patricia Bradford [09:13]: "She never bragged about what she did or who she was... And she really was."
• Charlene Pritchett Stevenson [13:32]: "It was just something that the Lord ordained... It was a perfect match, and I thank God for that."
• Patricia Bradford [21:47]: "For most of history, women have been left out in that history, and especially black women."
• Helene Posner [34:08]: "It's like, it's this sort of search for truth, like, who does have it, who doesn't have them, if they have it and they don't want to share it, why?"

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This comprehensive summary encapsulates the core discussions, insights, and narratives presented in the "Two Women" episode of Murder on the Towpath. It provides an engaging overview for listeners and those unfamiliar with the case, highlighting the profound impact of both Mary Meyer and Dovey Johnson Roundtree.

Transcript

[Soledad O'Brien]

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[Soledad O'Brien]

See details@t mobile.com Two days after her death, Mary was buried in Washington D.C. it would have been her 44th birthday. A bishop led the service and remembered his friend Mary with fondness. He spoke of her honesty, her friendship and her rare sensitivity. That beauty which walked with her and which flowed from her into each of our lives. He then led the service in prayer. He even asked for prayers for Mary's killer. That poor demented soul who made this happen. Did the bishop believe this was the act of one man? His voice filled the cavernous arched roof of the chapel of the National Cathedral. He tried to explain the inexplicable.

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We cannot know why such a terrible, ugly, irrational thing should have happened. The answer must lie somewhere in the sin and sickness of the whole world. Somewhere, perhaps in a pattern invisible to anybody else except God himself.

[Soledad O'Brien]

It would be a stretch to say the bishop was implying Mary's death was due to her powerful connections. He might not have known about her affair. Few did back then. And yet his words a pattern invisible somehow, someway. You have to wonder if attendees were whispering or wondering. Was there something larger at play, bigger than any one man? Mary's ex husband Cord sat at the front of the church. The stoic CIA man broke his composure. He openly sobbed. But Cord wasn't alone in his sadness and and confusion. There was no rationale for Mary's death. In those early days, Dovey had only read the newspaper accounts of a murder on the towpath. But upon learning that the funeral took place at the Washington National Cathedral, Dovey knew this woman was important. A woman of privilege. At that point, Dubby still didn't know she would be the one to defend the black man accused of killing Mary. That she would soon be at the center of this death, shrouded in mystery. And that she would ultimately acquit the accused murderer. Whoever the killer was, they were never held accountable. And the hard truth is we'll probably never know for sure who killed Mary Pinchot Meyer. What we can do is remember her and her artistic legacy as she deserves. But what if that same legacy is being actively erased from luminary Film Nation Entertainment and Neon Hum Media. This is Murder on the Towpath. I'm Soledad o' Brien. Today, the National Cathedral typically holds services every Sunday. Just over 10 miles away, there's another church in the District leading its congregation in weekly prayer. Allen Chapel Church.

[Velma Speight]

Allen Chapel is a an upbeat, progressive church that believes in a variety of music. Gospel hymns, anthem and people clap their hands.

[Soledad O'Brien]

That's Velma Speight. She's been coming to Allen Chapel for more than 50 years. She's now the superintendent of the church school. When Velma joined Allen Chapel, she immediately noticed one of the ministers. In fact, you couldn't miss her.

[Velma Speight]

She was very profound. When she said something, you knew that she spoke with authority and that she knew what she was talking about. She wasn't a person who was very loud and had to holler or scream, but she was able to get a point across that made you think. And it was right on time with whatever you were experiencing or whatever was going on in the world. She gave you comfort. She gave you hope. And Dovey was here doing that when I came.

[Soledad O'Brien]

That's right. Dovey was Velma's minister.

[Patricia Bradford]

And I just think it was natural that she would go into the ministry. Just very natural.

[Soledad O'Brien]

That's Patricia Bradford. She's another member of Allen Chapel. Dovey entered the ministry at age 47. Two years later, she had worked her way up to become an elder. The church had long been an institution. You see, Allen Chapel is part of the African Methodist Episcopal Church. A former slave named Richard Allen founded it. He bought his freedom in the late 18th century and created what became the first national black church. Dovey was proud of these facts. In 1961, African Methodist Episcopal churches decided to do something unheard of, ordain female ministers. Dovey rejoiced and immediately signed up to be one. She always loved the church, but now women could be on equal footing with men in the pulpit, including herself. Here's Dovey's daughter, Charlene Pritchett Stevenson.

[Charlene Pritchett Stevenson]

Sometimes when the Lord tries to get your attention and you kind of have an idea, but you keep running and you keep doing other things, but at some point, he. He gets your ear, and you know it's him. And so she accepted the call.

[Soledad O'Brien]

Look, it was classic Dovey. Just because something hadn't been done before didn't mean she wouldn't do it.

[Patricia Bradford]

Why wouldn't she help to make the AME church become a church that welcomed women into the pulpit? That's just a natural thing for her to do, given her life. It was revolutionary.

[Soledad O'Brien]

She wore soft pastel colors to church on Sunday. Always took the time to iron her clothing.

[Patricia Bradford]

And she was a petite little lady, so she was a little shorter than the podium. I don't know how she was able to peer over the top, but she did. She had this strong, raspy voice. And she always talked with a lot of emotion, even if she were just talking to you.

[Soledad O'Brien]

And whether it was the fourth Floor of the district courthouse or Sunday services. Dovey knew how to command an audience.

[Velma Speight]

I love to preach. My father would have been a preacher had he lived.

[Soledad O'Brien]

He died in 1919.

[Velma Speight]

And my joy is that somewhere he has heard me preach.

[Patricia Bradford]

I can just see her standing there and looking at the congregation and really looking at us. Not looking over our heads, but making eye contact and encouraging us and reminding us that we were children and that we had a father who cared for us and would never forsake us.

[Soledad O'Brien]

During the trial, it was said Dovey was very maternal toward Ray, now speaking at the podium. It was like she had an entire congregation of her children and they treated her with the respect you'd give a family elder, too. In the prime of her legal career, Dovey offered parishioners counsel and gave sermons at the pulpit. I have to wonder how being a religious leader informed her legal career, how she must have spoken and looked at the jury with such veracity, such passion that verged on the spiritual. But while her legal work had an impact that was so impressive, so meaningful, her congregation barely knew about any of it. Here's Patricia again.

[Patricia Bradford]

She never bragged about what she did or who she was or the shoulders, the people she brushed up against. In a normal day, she never would have come back and said, oh, today I saw so and so. I never heard her ever make herself seem bigger than life. And she really was.

[Soledad O'Brien]

Velma seems to agree.

[Velma Speight]

She was not, what I say, a very out in your face kind of person. I mean, she was very soft spoken and not one of the kind of people who is always has to be seen or always has a lot to say about something.

[Soledad O'Brien]

Religion was part of the fabric of Dovey's childhood. Hearing hymns and praising the Lord with that all encompassing joy brought Dovey back to Charlotte. She was once again that little girl at AME Zion, watching her grandpa, Reverend Clyde Graham, lead the congregation in prayer.

[Charlene Pritchett Stevenson]

It was that bond that family had that they prayed together.

[Soledad O'Brien]

That's Charlene again.

[Charlene Pritchett Stevenson]

They believed in the scriptures and what they were taught from the Sunday school and and from church.

[Soledad O'Brien]

Religion was Dovey's sanctuary. By the time she became a minister, Dovey had been practicing law for over a decade. She was tired. She saw firsthand how hard it was to turn the tides of prejudice toward justice, how maybe there were limitations to the law, that some pain needed solace and resolution not in the courts, but in the church pews and at church. Dovey didn't have to worry about presenting herself in white spaces. She didn't have to think about people underestimating her. She could just be. Be comforted by her people, be comforted by God. In 1992, Alan Chappell changed Dovey's life in another significant way. Charlene Pritchett Stevenson walked into services one Sunday when Dovey was giving a sermon.

[Charlene Pritchett Stevenson]

I was so inspired by her message. And she talked of faith and hope, and she mentioned her grandmother, Rachel. And I, too, was raised by my grandmother. And she also mentioned that she was from Charlotte, North Carolina. Well, Charlotte, North Carolina, is 52 miles from my home.

[Soledad O'Brien]

At the end of mass, Charlene went up to Dovey.

[Charlene Pritchett Stevenson]

I whispered to her that I was from Waysboro, and she smiled.

[Soledad O'Brien]

It was a fleeting moment of connection. The two women could have stayed strangers. But as Charlene left church that day, she saw Dovey standing curbside.

[Charlene Pritchett Stevenson]

That was strange to me for an elderly person to be waiting for a taxi. I'm from the South. That was just unheard of to me. So I said, I'll take you home. And she said, no, just take me to Pennsylvania Avenue and I can get a cab. And I said, no, ma' am. I'll take you home. So I took her home. And so she invited me to dinner. Her sister had cooked. And so we sat down and we were talking a little bit about Charlotte, getting to know one another. And it was just something it was just, I can't put my hand on. I just know it was something that the lord ordained. We shared so much, and so he gave me nana. And she was looking for a daughter. She didn't have any children, so it was a perfect match. It was a perfect match, and I thank God for that.

[Soledad O'Brien]

Charlene's mother had passed away years earlier. She hadn't realized it until then, but she had been looking for a mother figure, and Dovey had always wanted a family. She never remarried. After she and William Roundtree divorced at nearly 80 years old, Dovey found a way to have children of her own. Charlene moved in, cared for Dovey, tended to her needs. In her retirement years, she encouraged Charlene to get her master's degree, which she did. And for a time, Dovey lived not only with Charlene, but with Charlene's son, James. Now that she had the time, Dovey and her grandson James would take sprawling walks together.

[Charlene Pritchett Stevenson]

Once they were out in the backyard and James was playing, he had a little basketball goal out there. Well, she was on her walker shooting basketball with my son. And that was my first thought, was, oh, my goodness. But they were having so much fun. So those memories, I am so grateful.

[Soledad O'Brien]

For Dovey and James told each other stories. Stories he'd tell her stories about summer camp. She'd tell him about Grandma Rachel, about her broken feet and her resilience, about Spelman and Ms. Neptune, about passing it on.

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[Soledad O'Brien]

As Dovey entered the final years of her life, she moved back to North Carolina to be closer to other relatives. She developed Alzheimer's, and in 2018, at 104 years old, Dovey passed away. Family and friends honored her with a homegoing ceremony in Charlotte. An attorney who went to Dovey's church attended the funeral. Her name's Laruby May you know the service.

[Laruby May]

It was small and again recognizing that when you've lived over a century, you have very few contemporaries that are still living, you know. It wasn't necessarily a large funeral, but it was a very full funeral. Meaning it was full of love and full of people who were appreciative of her greatness and her impact on their lives. And I decided to speak on how powerful her voice was, how amazing her voice was as a lawyer, as a minister, as a pioneer, as all the things she did in life.

[Soledad O'Brien]

The New York Times published Dovey's obituary. You should definitely check it out if you haven't yet. Ms. Roundtree's victory in the Crump case was not her first noteworthy accomplishment, and.

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It was by no means her last.

[Soledad O'Brien]

Born to a family of slender means in Jim Crow South, Ms. Roundtree or.

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Reverend Dovey Johnson Rountree, as she was.

[Soledad O'Brien]

Long formally known as, was instrumental in winning a spate of advances for blacks and women in mid century America, blazing trails in the military, the legal profession and the ministry. It's satisfying to see Dovey getting her due in the paper of record. But reading it, I also felt a bit sad. I kept asking myself, how did I not know about this woman? The paper says it outright. Yet for all of her perseverance and all of her prowess, Ms. Roundtree remained by temperament, choice and political circumstance comparatively unknown. We tell the story of Rosa Parks. We post the RBG memes online. Why didn't I know Dovey's name when she was alive? Here's what congregant Patricia Bradford had to.

[Patricia Bradford]

For most of history, women have been left out in that history, and especially black women. So Dovey Johnson Roundtree comes along and she decides to play a role in all parts of American history.

[Soledad O'Brien]

The gatekeepers of history have traditionally been white men. They've decided who deserves to be remembered, which is a shame. You quickly realize how many other trailblazers are out there who we don't know about. It's almost as if this is the final hurdle for Dovey. She works so hard in her life to push against prejudices of the time. Maybe that last step is to ensure that she's remembered.

[Patricia Bradford]

Our eighth grade social studies classes, especially D.C. history classes, should be talking about Dovey Rowntree. Law classes should be looking at some of her cases. She just did so much in her time here.

[Soledad O'Brien]

Even when you go closer to Dovey's community, the memory of the groundbreaking lawyer, her seminal case defending Ray Crump, they're still barely known among the Allen Chapel congregants. Part of that is because of Debbie's age. She was 104 when she passed away. There just aren't that many congregants around to remember her. But some of the reasoning is much darker.

[Patricia Bradford]

They don't talk about the case, mostly because people don't know and because so many devastating things are happening right now in Southeast D.C. frankly, so many people would kind of shrug and say, oh well, that's what happens if you're poor and you can't afford a lawyer. That's what happens.

[Soledad O'Brien]

That's what happens. Patricia speaks with the kind of resignation black folks know all too well. Why dwell on a case from 1964 when there's so much to worry about in 2020 when police brutality and white supremacy are front page news as we speak? But if you take the time to head to Washington D.C. and walk up the steps of the entrance of the church. Step inside. Dovey Johnson Roundtree is hard to miss.

[Velma Speight]

Not through yet.

[Soledad O'Brien]

One of our producers met up with Velma Speight at Allen Chapel where she attends services as often as she can. Velma wore a long sleeve beige sweater and small gold hoops. It looked like she matched the lobby. The floor is an eggshell colored marble. Gold sculptures and frames adorn the space and plants sit on risers looking like altars unto themselves. It's bright, open and modern, maybe even a little sparse, like the first floor of a doctor's office. But as soon as you walk into the space, three portraits immediately catch your attention.

[Velma Speight]

When you come in the front door of our church, Dovey Roundtree is on the left hand side with a picture. Our founder is on the right hand side next to the entrance to the church.

[Soledad O'Brien]

That founder being Richard Allen, the former slave.

[Velma Speight]

And our pastor is in the center. Is sort of set up as a trinity like the Father, Son and the Holy Spirit. And to have a woman as part of that trinity is quite an amazing feat and quite an encouragement to our young people.

[Soledad O'Brien]

The church staff even keeps a bouquet under her portrait on a gold table.

[Velma Speight]

We try to keep some flowers in front of her just to make it look beautiful and to remember her. It looks like carnations and baby breath and some other decorative greenery in the vase.

[Soledad O'Brien]

In the photo, Dovey's wearing a collared button down blouse with stripes.

[Velma Speight]

This is a younger picture of Dovey. Looks like maybe she might been late 20s, early 30s.

[Soledad O'Brien]

She looks self possessed and determined as ever. As if the camera flashed while Grandma Rachel told the story about her feet one more time. Next to Dovey's portrait, there's a plaque. So Velma, could you please read the plaque for us?

[Velma Speight]

Okay, let me get a little closer with the eyesight here. It's. It says Mrs. W. Mae Johnson Roundtree. April 17, 1914. May 21, 2018. Ordained a.m.E. reverend, Commission, Army Officer, attorney at law, champion for human rights, civil rights, justice and spiritual deliverance. Reverend W. Johnson Roundtree believed she was born for such a time as this and answered the call on her life to become a strong woman of God, a preacher woman, an instrument for change in both the military and the church, and a crusader for justice in the communities and courtrooms of this great American democracy.

[Soledad O'Brien]

The plaque is long. No surprise there, when Dovey has so many accomplishments. Spelman, Howard, World War II, a bus segregation case, Brown versus Board. And then in the seventh paragraph, as.

[Velma Speight]

A practicing attorney, Rountree handled many cases, but one that garnered major headlines was her defense of Mr. Ray Crump, a Washington D.C. day laborer who was falsely accused of the 1964 murder of a Georgetown so socialite and ex wife of a CIA officer. Through tireless efforts, a turnaround Tree was able to win his acquittal and become one of the city's most well known criminal defense attorneys.

[Soledad O'Brien]

So what do you make of what you just read on the plaque?

[Velma Speight]

It highlights the major things that she did, but we can never, ever know all the things. But if we remember the things that we have outlined here, then it encourages us and our younger generation to make the most of what they have.

[Soledad O'Brien]

When I read the plaque, in some ways it surprised me that the murder of Mary Pinchot Meyer was on it. I mean, a plaque only has so much space. And while we know the importance of this trial next to Dovey's other numerous accolades, and it could have gotten lost or overlooked, I think it shows there are so many unanswered questions still tied to this case. And once you hear it, it sticks with you. Maybe it's the glitz and intrigue of Mary Meyer's socialite life in D.C. and her connections to JFK. Or as Velma seems to think, maybe it's Dovey Rountree, her commitment to social justice and her undeniable legal smarts that helped her win Ray his freedom.

[Velma Speight]

I think it was important because it set the tone as this black woman being an astute and capable criminal defense attorney, it set the tone for her black becoming a major defense attorney in Washington D.C. and being a woman at that.

[Soledad O'Brien]

So, Velma, when people are coming through the vestibule, you know, they're seeing these.

[Velma Speight]

Other plaques, do you get questions about her? When other people come to our church, they always stop and look at who the pictures are. And some of them may not have even heard about her until now. And it makes them want to find out who she is and why, how she accomplished all the many feats that are written on this plaque. And people want to know more. And we refer them to her book.

[Soledad O'Brien]

That'S Mighty justice, the memoir Dovey wrote with author Katie McCabe.

[Velma Speight]

We tell them, I guess we'd probably need to put a copy out here, but I'm afraid if we did, it wouldn't stay.

[Soledad O'Brien]

One of the people who wanted to learn more about Dovey was Larubi May. She was the lawyer who attended Dovey's homegoing. She actually served on the D.C. city Council. When she read Dovey's memoir, it changed her life.

[Laruby May]

When you find out about Debbie Roundtree, you're like, oh, my God. Like, wow. Like, what. What a person, what a human, what a lawyer, what a thinker. And it was just like, whoa. This amazing woman, right? Like, you know, sat in this church where I'm sitting and, you know, worked in this community where I am. And it was just, you know, I just got. I got lost. Like, I got lost in this world of wanting to know more.

[Soledad O'Brien]

Larubi reveres Dovey. She named a senior center after her. She's even named her conference room after Dovey. Every person who walks in learns about her role model.

[Laruby May]

There's just so many different ways where, as a black woman, she showed that, again, our ability to lead is as significant, as great as any other gender or any other race of people to do those same things. I think no matter if you're in ministry, if you're in business, if you're in law, if you're just in service, Dovey provides a foundation that any little black girl anywhere doing anything right, if they were to learn about her or to understand her story, that she would lay a foundation for them that allows for them to grow into being who God has. Has made them to be, and as a part of that, allows them to contribute to their families, to their communities, and to the greater world.

[Soledad O'Brien]

Dovey wrote her story, but her name is still relatively unknown. More people may have heard Mary Meyer's name. Her murder made headlines after all. And yet, because her life was cut short, she and her legacy are less understood. Mary's story is still being discovered, especially when it comes to her art.

[Helene Posner]

Mary Meyer was an ambitious artist. She showed her work. She showed her work at the Washington Gallery of Modern Art. She showed her work at Jefferson Place Gallery. She was at a show that traveled to Latin America.

[Soledad O'Brien]

That's Helene Posner again. She and Sue Scott are the art curators we spoke to earlier in the season, and they think Mary's paintings deserve more recognition.

[Helene Posner]

There are certain artists who are anointed or a part of this canon or part of art history. We're trying to expand that canon and look at figures who may not have been thought of or considered before, been sidelined for any number of reasons who are really worthy of reevaluation. And we think Mary Meyer is one of those artists.

[Soledad O'Brien]

Not only do they want to evaluate Mary's work, but they believe in it enough that they want to mount an exhibit of her pieces.

[Helene Posner]

What we're doing right now is talking to colleagues and contacts we have in Washington, in New York and trying to chase down leads to see if we can find some work. We don't think we have to have an enormous number of work to do a show. It could be a very small, focused exhibition, but it would give us a chance. You know, even if there were five or six or 10 paintings, we give us a chance to look at the work, write about it, evaluate it, contextualize it.

[Soledad O'Brien]

Problem is there's no work to exhibit.

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[Soledad O'Brien]

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[Soledad O'Brien]

So now the home you worked so hard for can work hard for you in plenty of different ways.

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[Soledad O'Brien]

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[Soledad O'Brien]

Back in episode five, we talked about Mary's painting Half Light. That's the one that's currently at the Smithsonian being restored. Half Light is the sole painting of Mary Pinchot Myers available for public viewing. So what's odd is even though it's estimated Mary painted dozens of works in her lifetime, there are none to see. But even stranger, nobody knows where they are.

[Velma Speight]

Who does have it? The paintings.

[Soledad O'Brien]

In recent months, sue and Helene have been on the hunt to find her artwork.

[Helene Posner]

So I would say we've hit some dead ends. The works are not in museum collections. They're in private collections. We have to find private collectors who are willing to share that information with us. And so far we have not succeeded, but will persist.

[Soledad O'Brien]

Not everyone who has a painting is willing to admit they do.

[Velma Speight]

And in some cases we've been told by other people that they are in certain collections. And when we go to those people, they say they don't have them or they eventually don't get back to us. And then we'll go back to the original, original person. They'll say, I know, I saw it in their house. So, you know, that was years ago that they saw it in their house, but. But it's like, it's this sort of search for truth, like, who does have it, who doesn't have them, if they have it and they don't want to share it, why? So it's, you know, it's just this whole thing of shrouded in mystery.

[Soledad O'Brien]

Mary's inner circle has long been protective of her, saying very little in the press. But it's confounding that her art hasn't made its way into galleries.

[Helene Posner]

We're just puzzled that the work has not become more accessible or more visible.

[Soledad O'Brien]

The questions around Mary's art just adds to the cone of silence surrounding the rest of her life and death. So many pieces still just don't add up. It's maddening, but it's also why this story remains fascinating. How were the bullets that killed Mary so precise? What the heck did the CIA really want with Mary's diary? And why is Mary's family so reluctant to talk about the case and her art to this day? Maybe it's because Mary's living relatives and friends are still traumatized by her untimely passing or protective of how she's perceived. Her legacy is intertwined with conspiracies and an affair with one of the most beloved presidents of the United States. But even still, this feels different. This is an opportunity to secure her artistic legacy, one that seemed to be on the verge of greatness when she was murdered. A chance to celebrate her vision, her creativity, her brilliant mind, and not, as her friends and family may want to avoid, dwell on her untimely and painful death. So what's stopping her collectors from sharing this vital part of Mary's life?

[Helene Posner]

We think people are protective of her, but our feeling is she was a working artist, she was a practicing artist, and she would want her work to be shared and seen. You can't look at someone's life through their untimely death. Mary Meyer didn't know she was going to suffer an untimely death. She was an active, practicing artist. If the story takes 50 years to tell, it takes 50 years to tell.

[Soledad O'Brien]

Helene wants Mary's art to have the second chapter that Mary herself was denied. She wants to know more about Mary Meyer's work and to tell the world about it more than a half century after her death.

[Helene Posner]

Once we see the work, we will be able to look at it, critique it, exhibit it, write about it, bring her into the bigger dialogue, bring her into the artistic mainstream where she belongs.

[Soledad O'Brien]

We talk a lot about how Dovey saved Ray Crump on July 30, 1965. But I think there's another person Dovey helped that day. Mary. Here's Alexis Ko.

[Rocket Mortgage Representative]

When Roundtree won that day, she didn't just get Crump acquitted. She in theory, did a service to Mary Meyer because Crump's acquittal should have motivated police to keep looking, to show the government that they couldn't bury this. And so it's really interesting to think about their relationship as well.

[Soledad O'Brien]

As I've told the story of these two women, I've often wondered what it would have been like if Dovey and Mary had met. What would do have thought of Mary's art? Would Mary have wanted to discuss civil rights with Dovey? Being a veteran herself would do agree with Mary's pacifist views. Here are two women who could not have been more different in so many ways. Their backgrounds, their privilege, the way society viewed them. And yet they were similar too. They were both independent, opinionated, fearless. Finally, and most importantly, there's this Both women at their cores, remained true to themselves. Each one tried to become someone in a world that had no interest in women standing out. Mary Pinchot Meyer died decades ago on that fateful day in 1964. Dovey Johnson Roundtree died in 2018. That doesn't mean their stories have to perish with them. Maybe their memories can live on. And that's what's up to us. I'll never forget how the black elevator attendant helped Dovey win her case defending Ray Crump and Mary. I'll always remember how she remained a fervent pacifist willing to leave her marriage for it. And she made powerful leaders understand this passion, too. Now you know Dovey's story, and you know Mary's story. If you pass them on in a way, they live on. But if we don't tell their stories, their deaths are final. I never met Dovey or Mary, but through this podcast I've had the honor of helping keep their memories alive. I felt a a sense of urgency in telling their stories. They're too important to forget. They should be remembered for their accomplishments and failures, their complexity and their resolve. Like Ms. Neptune told Dovey, and like Dovey told Charlene, pass it on from Luminary Murder on the Towpath is a production of Film Nation Entertainment in association with Neon Hum Media. Our executive producers are me, Soledad o' Brien, Alyssa Martino, Milan Papelka, and Jonathan Hirsch. Lead producer is Shara Morris. Associate producers are Natalie Ryn and Lucy Licht Senior editor is Catherine St. Louis Music and composition by Andrew Epen Sound design and mixing by Scott Somerville Fact checking by Laura Bullard Special thanks to Allison Cohen, Sarah Vacchiano, Rose Arce, Kate Mishkin, Tanner Robbins, Adriana Gallo, Dan Raviv and Michaela Salella.

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That stays with you. The food here isn't just a meal, it's a legacy. And whether it's the kick of a chiltepin, which is a very hot pepper for those of you who don't know or enjoying a Sonoran hot dog after a night out on the town, every dish has a story to tell. And beyond the culinary journey, each neighborhood offers a glimpse into into a rich tapestry of cultures blending into the Sonoran Desert. Tucson isn't just a getaway, it's a journey into heritage and a community that feels like home. Learn [e-mail] Viva.

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Camp Shane one of.

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Nothing about that camp was right. It was really actually like a horror movie. Enter Camp Shame, an eight part series.

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Examining the rise and fall of Camp Shane and the culture that fueled its decades long success.

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[Soledad O'Brien]

This is an iHeart podcast.