A City with Two Faces: A Conversation with “What Death Revealed” Author Jonathan Lash

Summary

Podcast Summary: Murder Sheet Episode: A City with Two Faces: A Conversation with “What Death Revealed” Author Jonathan Lasch
Release Date: April 24, 2025

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Introduction

In this episode of Murder Sheet, hosts Áine Cain and Kevin Greenlee engage in a compelling conversation with Jonathan Lasch, the author of the gripping true crime novel What Death Revealed. Lasch brings a wealth of experience from his diverse career, including his time as a federal prosecutor in Washington, D.C., his roles in environmental law, and his tenure as the president of Hampshire College. The discussion delves into the intricate layers of Lasch's novel, exploring themes of violence, corruption, and racial tensions in 1970s Washington, D.C.

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Guest Background

Jonathan Lasch is introduced as a multifaceted individual with a background that spans the Peace Corps, environmental law, and academic leadership. His diverse experiences have significantly shaped his perspective, culminating in his debut novel, What Death Revealed. Lasch shares insights into his transition from a legal career to writing fiction, emphasizing the profound impact his past has had on his storytelling.

Notable Quote:

"I wanted to change the world and thought law school would be the best place to get a handle. I just loved it." (06:24)

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Themes of "What Death Revealed"

Lasch's novel centers around Jimmy McFarland, an idealistic white federal prosecutor, and Larry Williams, a black police sergeant and Vietnam veteran. Their collaboration serves as a vehicle to explore deep-seated issues within Washington, D.C., during the 1970s. The book intricately weaves themes of murder, violence, racism, and systemic corruption, painting a vivid picture of a city grappling with its dual nature.

Key Points:

• Violence and Corruption: Lasch highlights the pervasive violence and institutional corruption that plagued D.C. during the era.
• Racial Divide: The novel underscores the tension between the predominantly white police force and the 70% black population of the city.
• Prosecutorial Challenges: It delves into the complexities faced by federal prosecutors operating in a politically charged and racially divided environment.

Notable Quote:

"It was this, this city with two faces. The grand capital of the free world... and one of the poorest cities in the country." (07:00)

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Insights on the Criminal Justice System

Lasch provides a candid look into his experiences as a federal prosecutor, detailing the relentless pace and high-pressure environment of handling multiple criminal cases daily. He reflects on the emotional toll of prosecuting individuals who often lacked support systems, leading to questioning the efficacy and humanity of the justice system.

Key Points:

• High Case Load: Prosecutors in D.C. were inundated with cases ranging from burglaries to murders, leaving little room for empathy.
• Juvenile Justice: Lasch recounts his disillusionment with the juvenile detention facilities, describing Oak Hill as a "concentration camp" for troubled youth.
• Systemic Flaws: The inability to address underlying social issues led to a punitive rather than rehabilitative approach to justice.

Notable Quote:

"Society has to have some means of saying, we don't accept this behavior...this is for society." (37:29)

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Writing Process and Inspirations

Transitioning from law to literature, Lasch discusses the serendipitous genesis of What Death Revealed. Participating in a writers' group, he was prompted to write a "dark scene," which organically evolved into his novel. Lasch describes the characters as having a life of their own, guiding the narrative and bringing depth to the story.

Key Points:

• Character-Driven Narrative: The characters in his novel inspired Lasch, often prompting him to write intuitively rather than following a strict plot outline.
• Real-Life Influences: While fictional, many characters are based on real individuals Lasch encountered during his career.
• Overcoming Writer’s Block: Lasch creatively engaged with his characters, even simulating interviews to navigate plot challenges.

Notable Quote:

"It was as if the characters in the book had been waiting for the opportunity to tell me how much I'd missed 45 years before." (15:33)

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Reflections on Law Enforcement and Society

Lasch offers a nuanced perspective on the relationship between law enforcement and the community during his tenure. He acknowledges the dedication of police officers while critiquing the systemic issues that fueled mistrust and racial tensions. Additionally, Lasch reflects on the evolution of the FBI and its contrast to his father's experiences.

Key Points:

• Police as Friends: Initially viewed the police as partners, gaining respect through collaborative prosecution.
• Systemic Racism: Highlighted how demographic disparities within the police force contributed to societal tensions.
• FBI Evolution: Contrasts the current FBI with its past under J. Edgar Hoover, noting significant shifts in organizational culture and public perception.

Notable Quote:

"Police departments reflect our society. The only way we're gonna change that is by changing the society and outgrowing racial tension." (30:49)

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Future Projects and Legacy

Lasch hints at a sequel to What Death Revealed, introducing new plotlines and characters that continue to explore the complexities of justice and personal vendettas within the federal legal system. He also shares his admiration for his father's literary legacy, acknowledging the influence it has had on his own writing journey.

Key Points:

• Sequel in Development: Builds upon the events of the first novel, delving into new mysteries and character arcs.
• Literary Heritage: Pays tribute to his father, Joseph Lasch, a celebrated author and historian, emphasizing the importance of legacy and storytelling.

Notable Quote:

"Write it. Just write it. See what happens. Don't try to figure out what's going to sell." (35:53)

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Conclusion

The episode concludes with Lasch expressing gratitude for the opportunity to share his experiences and insights. Hosts Áine Cain and Kevin Greenlee commend his work, encouraging listeners to delve into What Death Revealed and anticipate future publications. The conversation underscores the enduring relevance of exploring historical crimes through a nuanced and humanizing lens.

Notable Quote:

"I was gripped by it. It's one of those books that feel like you read it very quickly." (44:47)

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Key Takeaways

• Complexity of the Justice System: Lasch's experiences shed light on the multifaceted challenges within federal prosecution, especially in a racially divided city.
• Impact of Personal History: His diverse career and personal background deeply inform his storytelling, adding authenticity and depth to his narratives.
• Nuanced Portrayal of Law Enforcement: The novel balances the portrayal of individual officers' humanity with critiques of systemic issues.

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Additional Resources

• Book Mentioned: What Death Revealed by Jonathan Lasch
• Author's Website: Jonathan Lasch's Official Site (Note: Replace with actual URL if available)

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This detailed summary encapsulates the essence of the Murder Sheet episode, providing listeners and readers with a comprehensive overview of the discussions and insights shared by Jonathan Lasch concerning his novel and experiences in the federal legal system.

Transcript

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[Anya Cain]

And violence we recently had the pleasure of speaking with author Jonathan Lasch. This is a man with quite a varied career. He was a Peace Corps volunteer. He was a lawyer who took on environmental causes. He was the Vermont Secretary of Natural Resources. He also served as the sixth president of Hampshire College in Massachusetts. And of course, Mr. Lasch is also a published author and writer.

[Kevin Greenlee]

His latest book is all about one of his earliest professional experiences. You see, Lasch was a federal Prosecutor in Washington, D.C. operating out of a small office. He handled all manner of cases as a young attorney for the government.

[Anya Cain]

That experience comes to the forefront in what Death Revealed, a fictional tale centering Jimmy McFarland, an idealistic white prosecutor who teams up with Larry Williams, a black police sergeant and Vietnam veteran. Together they tackle murder, violence, racism and widespread corruption in our nation's capital.

[Kevin Greenlee]

We talked with Lash about the themes in the book, namely the violence and corruption of seventies era Washington, D.C. the divide and distrust between African American civilians and the mostly white police force, and the life of a federal prosecutor in those turbulent times in a city with two faces.

[Anya Cain]

My name is Anya Cain.

[Kevin Greenlee]

I'm a journalist and I'm Kevin Greenlee.

[Anya Cain]

I'm an attorney and this is the Murder Sheet.

[Kevin Greenlee]

We're a true crime podcast focused on original reporting, interviews and deep dives into murder cases. We're the Murder Sheet and this is.

[Anya Cain]

A city with two A conversation with what Death Revealed author Jonathan Lash. Okay, well, first of all, Jonathan, thank you so much for coming on the show. We really appreciate you joining us today.

[Jonathan Lasch]

A pleasure, I guess, to start off.

[Anya Cain]

With this is kind of a big question, but tell us a bit about your legal career.

[Jonathan Lasch]

You know, I was in the Peace Corps and I came back from the Peace Corps and I was trying to think, what can I do? I want to change the world and where's the best place to get a handle? And I thought law school would be really good, that the laws drive things. And I went off to law school and it turned out I just loved it. Some people it works, some people it doesn't. It was my style. And I clerked for a wonderful federal judge and decided that now I gotta get experience trying cases. And that since I'd grown up, you know, I died in the wool liberal, progressive, that I should do it on the government side in Washington D.C. the only city in the country where the federal prosecutors handle both federal issues and local crimes. So I thought that'd be the place. I got a job there. And they just kind of throw you off the deep end. And from the day you arrive, you know, you're absolutely snowed under with cases very, very intense. And I was having a great time, but I think that I was totally clueless about what was going on around me. I just, you know, it was this, this city with two faces. The grand capital of the free world, glittering, and all these fabulous monuments and huge federal office buildings. And then one of the poorest cities in the country with people living in unheated slums without water and without electricity. It was just, it was appalling. And the city was 70% black, the police department was 80% white. And that's kind of a natural formula for conflict. And somehow I didn't focus on any of that while I was trying cases. I was just getting the cases and preparing them and going to trial and trying to do my job.

[Anya Cain]

Can you tell us about some of the cases that you were working back then? You mentioned that kind of interesting dichotomy where you're doing kind of the local and the federal side of things and sort of how did that balance out in terms of your workload?

[Jonathan Lasch]

While I was there, I was doing almost entirely local criminal cases. Burglaries, rapes, robberies, murders. The case that sort of convinced me maybe I wasn't cut out to do this long term. I had a robbery case against this very young defendant. He had committed a series of street robberies. He was clearly Addicted. And the last had been one where he knocked his grandmother down and stole her purse. And so he was on trial for this whole series of cases. And when the case started, he was just defiant and angry and nobody was going to push him around. And he didn't care that he was being prosecuted. And so we went through putting on all these people he'd robbed and the cops and all the evidence. It was a compellingly strong case. And it went to the jury. Jury came back very quickly with a guilty verdict. And so I said to the judges, by this time late in the evening, step him back. Once he's been convicted, he no longer is entitled to be free on bail. I said, you know, this kid's a one one man crime wave. And I looked over at him and suddenly he was a little kid again. You know, he was going to go off to prison by himself with nobody to support him. He hadn't brought his toothbrush. I mean, and I just sort of thought, what's the use of this? Why am I doing this? And began looking for other jobs.

[Anya Cain]

Wow. Yeah. And we're going to talk a bit more about the kind of, some of the backdrop of the DC of that time that you mentioned. But I do want to ask you, just for our listeners, can you tell us a bit about the legal quirk that makes it so federal prosecutors are doing both kinds of cases in D.C. specifically.

[Jonathan Lasch]

Yeah, it's actually very simple. Congress didn't trust the D.C. government for a long time. D.C. was just a plantation run by the Congress, mostly by Southern congressmen who maintained it for their own convenience. I mean, and the way the roads were built, tearing through neighborhoods and the way the courts were run was all designed to keep them safe. One of the things when finally Congress gave the District home rule and people who lived there were able to vote for a mayor and a city council, eventually even for president, although they still don't have congressmen or senators. The Congress held back the courts in order to assure that from their point of view, their safety was protected.

[Anya Cain]

I don't know, it sounds like something that would happen in another country, not here, but it's. Yeah, yeah, it's scary. I'm curious, you mentioned when you were there, you didn't necessarily notice the sort of two faces of the city. What inspired you to go back, though, and then write what Death Revealed, which is this really gripping novel that looks at both of those faces from these different perspectives. We have a very liberal white prosecutor who has kind of an idealistic view of things. We have an African American police sergeant who sees things totally differently and is seeing the different sides of it. So what sort of made you go back and interrogate that?

[Jonathan Lasch]

So I retired. I'd been a longtime environmental leader and lawyer and so forth. And then I spent seven years as president of a college, which, let me tell you, is one tough job these days. And I retired. I'd been pretty sick. And it was time. And I joined a writers group thinking that I would do what I'd always done, write nonfiction. And the moderator gave us an assignment one day to write a dark scene. And it just. This scene suddenly sprang into my mind from very early when I'd been a prosecutor sitting down in a basement room with just a window high up on the wall, looking, looking out onto the sidewalk, kind of gringy, gritty room with beaten up old furniture. And the job of the prosecutor who had that assignment each day would. Was to so called paper cases, that is to have the cops bring in cases for which they'd made arrests the night before. And you would decide, are we going to prosecute this? And you'd fill out the proper forms and sign them and get the case moving on to the grand jury. And this particular morning, and this is described in the book, this particular morning, that scene came to my mind. And a picture of these three cops would come in. One was this very large black sergeant with a bushy beard and deep voice could barely fit on the chair that he was sitting on. And he was obviously in a bad mood. And then a young detective who worked with him and a white lieutenant who worked with them who seemed kind of out of it, and they brought in some drug cases. And so I wrote about this for the writers group and it was my day to read, so I read what I'd written and people, a couple of people said, wow, that sounds like the beginning of a mystery novel. And it was just like something exploded in my head and I became obsessed with this idea. I mean, that's not what I'd been thinking of, but I just had this picture. And it was as if the characters in the book had been waiting for the opportunity to tell me how much I'd missed 45 years before when I'd been a prosecutor. I am usually a pretty slow, agonizing writer. You know, not a page an hour, but a page a day kind of person. But this just began to flow. I just. I could write anytime, anywhere, and these characters were telling me where we were going. And then I got stuck about six weeks in because I had no idea where this story was going. I hadn't planned the plot and I just got completely stuck and I had them interview me. I wrote down an interview where they were asking me questions and I was trying to answer. And it turned out, as they pointed out to me, that I had developed too many subplots because I didn't know where I was trying to go. And they said, why are we doing this and why are we doing that? And. And that cleared the problem and we just went right ahead and finished the book. Now I'm trying to get them to come back because I'm working on the sequel.

[Anya Cain]

Well, I was going to ask that. So you basically got interrogated by your own characters.

[Jonathan Lasch]

Yeah.

[Anya Cain]

I love it. That's awesome.

[Kevin Greenlee]

It's such an immersive world that you captured. How did you make it seem so real?

[Jonathan Lasch]

This is going to sound a little silly, but it. I attribute that all to the characters. I mean, it's really. I know a lot of authors say this, but it really was as if they were dictating the book. They were digging up memories that I didn't know I had. Most of the main characters are based on real people I knew, but the events are completely made up. So I did know a guy like Sergeant Williams, like Sarge. I didn't know him well, but once he got started, he just started to find himself.

[Anya Cain]

Absolutely. And I was going to ask, you know, I mean, the issues that you illustrate in this novel about, you know, the D.C. police back then, was there really that level of a culture of corruption or, you know, is that. Is that something that was kind of an issue plaguing the force at that time?

[Jonathan Lasch]

Yeah, it was driven in part by the fact that they were going through this huge transition and there was a battle for control and for power. And the people who'd been in control had been pretty much unaccountable for a long time because there was no city government. People might not like the way the police department behaved, but there wasn't anything they could do about it.

[Anya Cain]

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[Jonathan Lasch]

Everyone can sleep soundly, especially you.

[Anya Cain]

ATT 5G requires a compatible plan and device coverage not available everywhere. Learn [e-mail] 5G Network that that makes a lot of sense. And as you mentioned, it's in a predominantly white police force, a predominantly black city. Seems like, you know, in that period of transition, people are beginning to see the problem with that. But some people are still clinging to power and not wanting to.

[Jonathan Lasch]

I mean, imagine this. This was that. This is set seven years after the riots following the assassination of Dr. King. And there had been tanks rolling up the streets of Washington D.C. lyndon Johnson was afraid that they were going to just completely lose control of the city and called out the National Guard and brought in tanks. It's inconceivable. In Washington D.C. they had, they had tanks rolling. I hope we don't see it again.

[Anya Cain]

Absolutely. And I'm just curious, you know, you mentioned drawing upon real life people to sort of like, you know, kind of as the inspiration for these characters and then they kind of flesh themselves out in a way. But you know, from your time as a federal prosecutor, what was it like to work with the local police versus the FBI agents?

[Jonathan Lasch]

For somebody who had grown up the child of progressives and gone to liberal schools and so forth, protested the Vietnam War, been pretty anti cop, anti government, this was a really remarkable experience because the cops were our friends. We did something they needed to have done. And if you worked hard on prosecuting their cases, they respected that. And when I went out and took some ride alongs with them and saw how hard the job they did was, I really respected them. But they were still an occupying force. I'm not sure that's true now. The city has changed a lot. It's a really wonderful, diverse city. You walk along the sidewalks and you see everyone. I don't feel the same level of tension. But they were an occupying force at that time.

[Anya Cain]

Yeah, I think the book is really nuanced and a really interesting book for this moment just because, you know, it portrays the police as certainly human beings who many of them are very well meaning and you know, even just very good people. But at the same time it doesn't really let the overall system off the hook.

[Jonathan Lasch]

I was surprised that when I began writing about a couple of FBI agents that they were such positive images. I was not a fan of the FBI, but somehow as these characters emerged, I mean, draw your own conclusions, but they seem like pretty good people.

[Kevin Greenlee]

I'm curious, you say you were not a fan of the FBI. Why was that?

[Jonathan Lasch]

Well, so during the time when I had been doing civil rights protests and war protests, that was the end of J. Edgar Hoover's reign. And it seemed like the Bureau had zero respect for individual rights and liberties. And we were always worrying that they were spying on us and collecting information. And my father had been a radical youth leader in the 30s. And after he became a very successful author, he got his FBI files. And it was just shocking what we found in there and how much information they'd gathered on him. And he was a pretty good friend of Eleanor Roosevelt. And in spying on him, they'd spied on her, too. She was First Lady. It was appalling.

[Anya Cain]

Yeah. People really don't understand. Like, I think the FBI that we think of when we think of the FBI today is very different from the Hoover years, certainly.

[Jonathan Lasch]

Right.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Let me just digress for a moment. I don't think I realized. So your father was Joseph Lasch.

[Jonathan Lasch]

That's right.

[Kevin Greenlee]

I don't wanna make this interview about your father, but I've certainly enjoyed his books. He's a great writer, great historian.

[Jonathan Lasch]

Yes. And he always thought I would be a writer. And it took me, you know, I was a late bloomer. It took me 75 years to get around to doing it.

[Anya Cain]

But he was right. You did it.

[Kevin Greenlee]

It was worth the wait.

[Anya Cain]

Yes, it was worth the wait. Yeah. What Death revealed is terrific. And so. Yeah. But I love how nuanced it is, though, about just all these different layers. Federal law enforcement, local law enforcement, federal prosecutors. And just kind of. We're kind of getting into the day to day of all these people. And I'm just curious, you know, you mentioned some of the cases you took on. But I'm curious, what was the day to day like? Typically, you mentioned kind of getting thrown in the deep end. I'm seeing this through the eyes of Jimmy McFarland, who's the prosecutor in this novel. But it really sounds like it's a lot. And I'm wondering if you could describe that.

[Jonathan Lasch]

My office was in a building called the Pension Building, which is described in the book. It was built to administer the pensions of Civil War veterans. It's this gigantic open atrium surrounded by six stories. I think of external walkways that look out into the atrium and offices. The very wide stairways going up, very worn down. Probably the myth, but the story was that they'd been worn down by soldiers taking their horses upstairs to keep them so they wouldn't be stolen. But anyway, the building was not in such great shape when we were there. And each judge who was taking criminal cases would have a team of three prosecutors assigned to him. The idea was to make sure that he Never had to waste a minute. And each prosecutor would have two or three cases scheduled for trial every day because so many of them would plead out or the defendant wouldn't show, or they'd be postponed for some reason. So you would come in and you would have three case folders ready to go to trial. You would have your witnesses waiting in the witness waiting room, and you'd know perfectly well that it was probably a waste of their time, but you had to have them there in case it did go to trial. And then the three prosecutors would come in in the morning, and if it was a well organized judge, he or she would sort of go through with the prosecutor. What's the day going to be like? Which of these going to plead out? What do you think is going to go to trial? How long is it going to take you? Do you have expert witnesses who have to come in? You know, a ballistics expert or a chemist or something like that. And you'd kind of lay out the day and then you'd have some sense. Okay, it looks like my partner's case is going to go to trial at noon and they're going to be gone for two days. So I actually have some time and I can go back up and start preparing, you know, a more difficult case. And then mixed in with that, every practice prosecutor would have spent a period handling appeals cases, writing briefs on and when they came up for argument, arguing cases either in the D.C. court of Appeals or the United States Court of Appeals. And if one of those came up, that interrupted everything else. So you'd have to go hustling out of the courtroom, go over and argue your case and then get back because the judge was impatient for you to pay attention to him or her. Very, very intense and exciting. Just the way I sort of expected it to be enormously frustrating because you never got to fully prepare. If I'd stayed, stayed longer and you got to the point where you're doing major trials that took months to prepare, maybe you'd get to do it then. But this was. You have to be good at doing it in the seat of your pants.

[Anya Cain]

Absolutely. And I'm curious, you know, like, as you were sort of sort of interviewing your characters or having them interviewing you and kind of mining some of these experiences that you had, were there any memories that resurfaced as, like something particularly wild that happened while you were working or just things that really stuck out that kind of you sort of either put into the book directly or just kind of influenced it.

[Jonathan Lasch]

You remember in the book There's a story, sort of central part of the story about this man who's murdered in his home while his wife and young son are tied up in the kitchen. That was vaguely based on something that actually happened with the family from the school where my wife's taught. And I for a while had dreams that I would figure out a way to solve this case. And it actually was never solved. Nobody was ever arrested. The family just had to move on. But it made me start to think more about the victims in these cases. We didn't have a lot of time to spend with victims. They were our witnesses. We just wanted to get the story straight, make sure they knew what they were in for and move on. And there wasn't. There wasn't time for a lot of empathy. But this made me think of them more as real people.

[Anya Cain]

Absolutely. As you said, with the volume of cases and what you're expected to do with your time, it's very different from like a small town prosecutor's office.

[Jonathan Lasch]

Yep, yep.

[Anya Cain]

You know, one thing that really comes across in the book is the camaraderie. I mean, certainly interpersonal issues and conflicts with. With coworkers, but also the camaraderie that can develop between people working a major case together. How were you able to capture that? Was that something that you experienced?

[Jonathan Lasch]

No, I think that's all out of my imagination. Not really. So the people who I worked with, the other prosecutors, most of them were good friends, and I'm still in touch with a lot of them today. But in terms of, you know, having a team from law enforcement and from the prosecutor's office, that's kind of made up.

[Kevin Greenlee]

I'm curious. You say you're still in touch with some of them today. What has their reaction been to what Death revealed?

[Jonathan Lasch]

I've only had a couple reactions, and it's been mostly making fun of me, kind of. You wish.

[Anya Cain]

Oh, man, this isn't a spoiler, but the book does concern some, you know, murder, but also some fraud and. And that kind of like how complicated those cases can be. And it. One thing that was really interesting, I think early on in the book, there's a discussion of, like, you know, there can be a kid waving around a gun who steals $10, and in some ways that gets prosecuted more. It's a more concrete case than, you know, people ripping off the government to the tune of millions of dollars. And I'm just curious, like, as someone looking back, like, I mean, what are your thoughts on that? I thought it was a really interesting point to make and just sort of like how we sometimes white collar crime can affect more people, but somehow it kind of goes under the radar more.

[Jonathan Lasch]

Yeah, I think that's still true. And the story about the payroll fraud was real. I did stumble on it just the way Jimmy McFarland did, but it never went anywhere. Supervisors just kind of said, yeah, right, that's the way that is. I mean, I think that's in the nature of Washington. I mean, am I allowed to make a political comment? I mean, of course, look, look, look at who is the one tearing apart the government, you know, who, who made his fortune with billions and billions of federal dollars and doesn't want anybody to have any capacity to review what he's done. He doesn't like it when the government says, well, wait a minute, we want to take a look at this.

[Anya Cain]

At one point, Sergeant Williams tells Jimmy McFarland, the prosecutor, you know, the courts and the cops and those are ultimately more to protect him than African American people like Sergeant Williams. And I'm just curious, you know, but at the same time, this is a book about people who are trying their best, trying to work within the system and sort of give it their all. So, you know, in your view, how can we sort of acknowledge, acknowledge those inequities and the inequality in that space while also trying to better it? Like how do we balance it? Sort of seems like sometimes it's like you hear like, either nothing's wrong or let's burn the entire system down. So I guess like, where do you fall in that and how do we fix it?

[Jonathan Lasch]

Well, I think our police departments reflect our society. And yes, of course there are police departments and members of the police who are abusive, power corrupts. But I think this kind of racial tension being reflected in the way policing works. The only way ultimately we're gonna change that is by changing the society and outgrowing racial tension. I mean, we know we're becoming a majority minority country. And I just have to believe that that is going to ultimately change this kind of situation. And I do think again, going back. So I live now in western Massachusetts. I get back to Washington from time to time. My son and his family live there. And it's just very noticeable to me how different the city is and who lives there and the way people interact. It is no longer this two faced city.

[Kevin Greenlee]

When did that change?

[Jonathan Lasch]

I don't know. I'm guessing in the last 10, 15 years.

[Anya Cain]

One thing that kind of struck me was with McFarland, the prosecutor character, you know, he really has to deal with the intense responsibility of not messing up a case for his bosses, for the victims, for law enforcement. You know, as a prosecutor, as a young prosecutor especially, how do you, how do you deal with that pressure? Especially when you're sort of in this meat grinder of a system where it's like, you know, just constant cases coming at you.

[Jonathan Lasch]

Well, so to put yourself in this position, you're just out of college, you go to law school, and all of a sudden you're a prosecutor. And you walk into a courtroom and say, your Honor, I represent the United States government or I represent the United States of America. Of course, in part, that's a huge power trip, but it's also just intimidating. I don't know, you know, I don't know how to represent the United States of America. I'm just trying to do my job here. And so, I mean, I certainly tossed and turned a lot of times kind of wondering how to carry out those responsibilities. And it is something that when we would go out and have beers together, we talked about. So you have the power to drop a case. Well, that will make a huge difference in a lot of people's lives. And you're trying to make that decision on the basis of what you know about the facts and your sense of what's right and wrong. But you don't have days and days to figure it out. Usually it comes up in a way that, where you have five minutes. And I found that very intimidating.

[Anya Cain]

I imagine that's probably good, though, to be humbled by it and not just like, oh, yes, I have the power now, you know.

[Jonathan Lasch]

Yes. I don't want to pretend that I was always humble. I sort of enjoyed feeling self important too.

[Kevin Greenlee]

I just keep thinking about the moment you said that you actually had a conversation with your characters. Is that something that happened more than once?

[Jonathan Lasch]

No. So here I am. I was writing this book and it was just appearing. I mean, I couldn't believe it. And I would sit down in the evening with a drink, and if I had 45 minutes, I could write half a chapter. I mean, it was a wonderful experience. And then all of a sudden, I just couldn't move forward. I was stuck. And I didn't know what I wanted to write. And the characters didn't seem to be helping me in the same way. And for some reason this notion appeared to me. And I started out just trying to think, okay, what would McFarlane tell me if I could talk to him? How would he explain this to me? And then I began thinking, well, all right, let's Write it down. And this interview just sort of appeared. I went back and read it recently, and it's not that profound. The characters did lead me to think about the fact that I had too damn many subplots. So there was a whole subplot about maybe this was reflective of political corruption, and another one about maybe the authority that was building Metro was behind the murders. And those went nowhere. And I kind of figured out, you know what? Forget that stuff. Keep it moving. Make everything you have there relevant to helping you and your readers get to the end of this.

[Anya Cain]

What would your advice be for lawyers who might be looking to become authors or become fiction authors? Kind of synthesize some of their experience into a compelling fictional tale? What would your number one piece of advice be?

[Jonathan Lasch]

Write it. Just write it. See what happens. Don't try to figure out what's going to sell. Don't try to figure out how it should be. Just let it flow, have fun, and then see what comes out of it. And I guess the second piece of advice is don't think. When you have finished the first draft that you finished now you get to the really nasty, exhausting part dealing with editors and advisors and publishers and. And.

[Anya Cain]

And I'm curious, you know, this is more of kind of going way back, but what would your advice be for, you know, someone who's a young person in. In law school or interested in becoming a lawyer, who might be interested in becoming a federal prosecutor?

[Jonathan Lasch]

My son is a lawyer. I actually tried to discourage him all along, and there he is, a senior lawyer for the federal government. And he's really good at it, way better than his father was. And I have a grandson now who I talk to about it a lot. It is a job you can do where you feel you are making a contribution that is intellectually challenging. And if you're good on your feet, it's something you can really have fun doing. But it ain't creative.

[Kevin Greenlee]

I think back to the story you told us where there was one point in your career where you prosecuted that young man and you thought, like, what am I doing? What's the point? What would you say to a prosecutor who might ask you that question today? What is the point of it?

[Jonathan Lasch]

Society has to have some means of saying, we don't accept this behavior, and if you behave this way, we're going to identify you and stop it, and you will be punished. But don't let yourself think that you're gonna help the person who's getting punished, that this is for society, not. And I somehow wanted to believe that some good would come out of being imprisoned. I haven't seen much evidence of that. And at that time the District of Columbia had something that was called a juvenile detention facility at a place called Oak Hill. It was a concentration camp and kids were kept in cages. It was the most awful place I've ever, ever seen. The notion of sending teenagers there was just abhorrent to me. It's been finally closed, but.

[Anya Cain]

Yeah, not a place for rehabilitation. More punishment, it sounds like.

[Jonathan Lasch]

No, it was a toughening place.

[Anya Cain]

I'm curious, you know, in terms of, you mentioned a sequel. So what can you tell us about that? Are we going to be seeing the same characters? Anything? Preview?

[Jonathan Lasch]

Yeah. So you remember the scene in what Deaths Revealed where the senior prosecutor, Vic Donatelli comes in at the end of a trial and goes and talks to the judge who has been caught out soliciting a prostitute and basically tells him, you can resign tonight or we're going to drop this case and you're going to be embarrassed all across the city. And he resigns and leaves. This is about his hunt for revenge for that which he thinks was totally unfair. And he is ultimately murdered. And the new head of the U.S. attorney's office thinks that Donatelli murdered him.

[Anya Cain]

Wow, that'll be intriguing. So we will be looking forward to that. Any idea of when we can expect that?

[Jonathan Lasch]

I think I've only just gotten the characters to agree to come back to work. I've been struggling with it, but it's beginning to flow now.

[Anya Cain]

They've been on vacation and much needed vacation. They've been through a lot, but I, I, I, I'm really excited about that and so glad you'll be doing a follow up story because this one was really a fun read and, and we both really enjoyed and so, you know, like, I guess, is there anything we didn't ask you about the process or your experience or anything that you wanted to mention?

[Jonathan Lasch]

I've had so the publisher. When my father was publishing books and number one New York Times bestsellers and winning the Pulitzer Prize, the publishers all pursued him and they did anything to try to get him to go out and do pr. And his view was I'm a scholar. This book got reviewed in the New York Times. What more do you want? And he wouldn't do any of it. I'm, I, I really would like them to do something, but they don't do it anymore. That's, you know, unless you're a prominent author, at least they certainly for brand new authors, they don't do Publicity. So I ended up hiring a PR firm because I thought, well, what the heck? I've written this thing and I'd like some people to read it. And that's been a lot of fun. I mean, I do things like this talking to you, and I really enjoy it. I like talking about what was going on in the city. People ask terrific questions. So that. That's been great.

[Anya Cain]

That's awesome. And yeah, and a good reminder, publishing has changed a lot, but I think being proactive, like you're being is. Is absolutely the way to go.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Yeah, that's great. We actually have a true crime book coming out in a few months, so.

[Anya Cain]

We may be pestering you for notes on how to. How to do it.

[Jonathan Lasch]

That's great.

[Kevin Greenlee]

And I didn't even know about your father. Correct me if I'm wrong. Weren't your parents introduced by Eleanor Roosevelt?

[Jonathan Lasch]

Yes. Now, not many people know that. Yes, that is the case. They were both married to other people, unhappily, my mother to a very, very wealthy individual. And she wanted to become more socially engaged, and Mrs. Roosevelt wanted to take advantage of that. My father had been, as I told you, a radical youth leader. And in the late 30s, there was a congressional committee that was the predecessor of the House UN American Activities Committee that was investigating the left wing youth movement and subpoenaed my father and a number of other leaders to come testify. And Mrs. Roosevelt was absolutely scandalized that the Congress was attacking these young men and women for basically trying to help people think about what they could do about the Depression and where the country was going. So she went up to New York and rode down on the train with them, helping them to prepare. My father was just totally taken with her and she really liked him. So the next time when he was called back to testify again, she invited him to stay in the White House. And they became really good friends. And she thought, you know, this. This woman who's working with me and Joe, they. They make a great couple. And she introduced them and I'm the result.

[Kevin Greenlee]

So if it wasn't for Eleanor Roosevelt, you would not be here today?

[Jonathan Lasch]

That is correct. She was my godmother. In fact, the computer is sitting on top of her desk. When she died, I got her desk, which had been made by the cooperative of women in Hyde park that she helped to organize. It's all made from local maple and it has drawers on both sides so her secretary could sit on the other side and have her own supply of stuff. When Mrs. Roosevelt was dictating her column or letters and things like that. I like to think that helps inspire me.

[Anya Cain]

That's super cool.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Well, I think after people read what Death Revealed, while they're waiting for the next novel, that you go read your dad's books. Cause they're terrific.

[Jonathan Lasch]

Yes, they really are wonderful books. I wish that I had known how much difference it would make to him for me to tell him. But the relationships between fathers and sons don't always allow room for that.

[Kevin Greenlee]

No, they don't.

[Anya Cain]

Well, this has been terrific, Jonathan. Thank you so much for taking the time. We really appreciate you coming on the show and just talking about all of this. And we just again, strongly recommend check out what Death Revealed. It's a great read and I was gripped by it. I was just like.

[Kevin Greenlee]

I was too.

[Anya Cain]

Yeah, it's one of those books feel like read very quickly.

[Jonathan Lasch]

Thank you so much. Nice to talk to you. I hope in a couple of years we're talking about O'Brien's revenge.

[Anya Cain]

I can't wait.

[Kevin Greenlee]

That would be great.

[Anya Cain]

You're absolutely coming back on to talk about that. Thanks to Jonathan Lash for taking the time to speak with us. We're including a link to his book what Death Revealed in our show notes.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Thanks so much for listening to the Murder Sheet. If you have a tip concerning one of the cases we cover, please email [e-mail] if you have actionable information about an unsolved crime, please report it to the appropriate authorities.

[Anya Cain]

If you're interested in joining our Patreon, that's available at www.patreon.com murdersheet. If you want to tip us a bit of money for records requests, you can do so at www. Buymeacoffee.com murdersheet. We very much appreciate any support.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Special thanks to Kevin Tyler Greenlee, who composed the music for the Murder Sheet and who you can find on the [e-mail] if you're looking to talk with.

[Anya Cain]

Other listeners about a case we've covered, you can join the Murder Sheet discussion group on Facebook. We mostly focus our time on research and reporting, so we're not on social media much. We do try to check our email account, but we ask for patience as we often receive a lot of messages. Thanks again for listening.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Can we talk a little bit before we go about Quints, a great new sponsor for us? I think in one of the ads that we've already done for them, we talked about the compliments I'm getting on my jacket. I know you're a very modest woman, but can we talk about the compliments you're getting on the quince products you wear.

[Anya Cain]

Yeah, I've got two of their Mongolian cashmere sweaters. They're a brand that just does this sort of luxurious products but without the crazy costs, really. Well, they are. They give you Italian leather handbags. They do like European linen sheets. You have a really cool suede jacket. And I really like the way I look in my sweaters. I like the way you look in your bomber jacket. It looks super cool.

[Kevin Greenlee]

You've gotten a lot of compliments when you go out wearing these sweaters.

[Anya Cain]

I think I have, yeah.

[Kevin Greenlee]

And deservedly so.

[Anya Cain]

Also, like, I'm one of those people. My skin is very like, you know, like I, I kind of sensitive. So when it comes to wearing sweaters, like, you know, sometimes it's something's too scratchy, like it, it really bothers me. These are so soft. They're just like very delicate and soft and make. They're wearing them is lovely because they're super comfortable. You're not, you're not. It's not one of those things where you're like, you buy it and it looks great, but it doesn't feel that great. They look great. They feel great. Yeah. I really love them. And you got, you know, your cool jacket. I mean, that's a little bit of a. You're the guy who like wears the same thing all the time. So this was a bit of a, A gamble for you, a bit of a risk. You got something a bit different.

[Kevin Greenlee]

I do wash my clothes.

[Anya Cain]

I know you wash your clothes, but I mean, you're filthy.

[Kevin Greenlee]

You made me sound awful. So. No, I wash my clothes.

[Anya Cain]

But you don't really.

[Kevin Greenlee]

I launder them.

[Anya Cain]

You don't really experiment with fashion that much is what I'm saying. So this is a little bit out of the norm for you, but I think you really like it and it looks good.

[Kevin Greenlee]

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[Anya Cain]

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