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Murder Sheet
A Conversation with Erin Moriarty on the Murders of Claudia Maupin and Oliver Northup
00:45:18
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A
Okay. I know it's kind of cliche, but I really, really love fall. I just do, partly because I get to break out my fall wardrobe. And this year I know I'm going to be leaning on my favorite clothing brand, Quince. They're going to help me refresh my wardrobe, get some new pieces and help me feel a little bit more luxurious.
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It is. It just frankly is. And I'm excited to look into getting some more Mongolian cashmere sweaters, maybe some new colors. We're going to mix it up and I'd like to add those to my Quince collection. They start at just $50 so it's a steal. All Quint's pieces are like half the cost of similar brands, so check them out Today. Quince saves you money by cutting out the middlemen.
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A
Claudia Maupin and Chip Northup had a wonderful life together. They met at church and fell in love at an age when most people are thinking of retiring. The couple married and enjoyed 17 years together. But it all came to a horrifying end when the couple was found stabbed to death inside their home in Davis, California.
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B
Police looked everywhere and the evidence they discovered eventually led them to the couple's murderer, 15 year old Daniel Marsh.
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A
How did the killings affect the victims families and what exactly made a teenager like Daniel Marsh commitment these heinous murders?
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B
Aaron Moriarty explores those questions and a lot more in the new CBS News 48 Hours podcast 15 Inside the Daniel Marsh Murders, which is out now on all podcast platforms.
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A
Of course. 48 Hours is a legendary documentary news magazine from CBS that does a lot of true crime stories. Aaron Moriarty is a correspondent for 48 hours with a focus in true crime reporting. She has worked there since 1990. You've probably seen some of her terrific work for that program. She's won nine national Emmy Awards.
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B
It was a real pleasure for us to get the chance to talk with Erin about her career and the Haunting Case of Daniel Marsh.
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A
My name is Anya Cain. I'm a journalist.
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B
And I'm Kevin Greenlee. I'm an attorney.
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A
And this is the Murder Sheet.
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We're a true crime podcast focused on original reporting, interviews, and deep dives into murder cases.
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A
We're the Murder Sheet.
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B
And this is a conversation with Aaron Moriarty on the murders of Claudia Maupin and Oliver Northup.
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C
Sam.
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A
Aaron, thank you so much for coming on the Murder Sheet. It is an absolute honor. And I'm not gonna lie, I'm a little starstruck talking to you right now.
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C
Come on, come on, come on. We're all in the same field, and we all love the same kind of stories.
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A
Absolutely. But I want to actually go back and ask you, what got you started in being interested in telling some of those stories? I guess, can you talk us through when you knew you wanted to be a journalist?
- [04:36]
C
Well, that's kind of funny. I fell into journalism. I actually went to law school. Planned to be a litigator. That's what I wanted to do. My father was a judge, and I was his only son. He had all girls, and so it really mattered to me to practice law. But as you can see, I've been around a while, and in Columbus, Ohio, the legal profession wasn't really open to the idea of female lawyers. I worked in a law firm, and I could write briefs, but the clients were a little wary of having a female attorney. So I had this harebrained idea. There was a show that was starting in Columbus, Ohio, and I thought, oh, if I get my name out, if I do stories. I didn't have a degree in journalism. I don't know why I thought I could do it. And I auditioned, and they gave me the job. And by chance, that just turned out to be what I thought I should be doing. All of a sudden, I was telling legal stories, but I could tell any story. And as the years went on, I realized also, you could make a difference in people's lives. Now you can also as a lawyer, but it's one case at a time. If you're a journalist, you might be able to make a difference in a lot of people's lives. And so. And I lucked out that in the mid-1990s, O.J. simpson was investigated, went on trial, and DNA was introduced at his trial. It was the very first high profile trial. And all of a sudden, even though it didn't help convict him, we started seeing that there was this new forensic tool that could tell you who was guilty and who was sitting in jail, who shouldn't be there. And so I think I was one of the first to really started focusing on wrongful convictions because I was lucky I had a show that would let me do it. It was perfect. Honestly, everything that I've done in my life, I've kind of fallen into. But I really did find the right career for my skills and for my passions.
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A
Did having that legal background help you when reporting out some of those stories? Because I know, I mean, I'm a journalist and then Kevin is an attorney and without him, I think it would be hard, harder for me to sort of understand some of the legalese and the legal documents. But did you feel like that gave you a leg up when you were kind of investigating some of these stories?
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C
Well, see, that makes you the perfect team because I totally agree with you. We have to read so many documents and we have to read before we do a 48 hours, we're reading all the transcripts. We're, you know, we're actually reading the entire court transcript because you have to, you have to know more than the lawyers do in the case, or at least just as much. And so. Yes, but it wasn't just that. It helped you understand. I love sparring with lawyers. It is maybe my very favorite activity in the world because I think all lawyers do. And sometimes defense attorneys really like that you're going to push them and push them and get their best stuff out. And I, I'm not afraid of it. I actually revel in it. And so it did seem to be the perfect. And then I also, you know, I do other stories like just yesterday I interviewed Justice Anthony Kennedy. And even though that seems like a real, it's for Sunday morning, a very different kind of story. It was perfect for me. And I was so interested in how he started as a private practice attorney and ended up on a court of appeals and then a Supreme Court who kind of was unpredictable. So that law degree and that legal education was really the best thing I ever did and really has, I think, kept me in the seat.
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B
I'm going to ask you a similar question to what you asked him. How did you go from Columbus, Ohio, to being a correspondent for CBS News in New York?
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C
Yeah, again, by luck, I Love telling young people this story. I got an offer to work at the NBC O and O in Chicago, and they weren't going to pay me any money. I was getting the very basic. The lowest you could get paid. So I wrote this very arrogant, stupid letter to the GM in Chicago at cbs. I was going to NBC and I wrote to the. And I said, look, I'm coming to Chicago. I think you're going to want me. You know, I think because I hadn't, like, signed the deal, but I knew what they were going to pay me. And he wrote me back and said, don't call us, we'll call you and criticize my tape, you know, three page, you know, of everything I had done wrong on my tape. Yes. So I was devastated. And I went ahead and went to Chicago. I got no money, but I also thought it was a great critique. And I took what he wrote very seriously. A year later, I got a letter. You know, one line, I made a mistake. And then by luck, you know, his name was Eric Ober. He left Chicago and became president of CBS News and took the reporter from the opposing station with. He hired me, and that's how I ended up there. And so I love telling younger journalists that what you think is a terrible mistake or a failing sometimes can turn out to be a blessing. And it really was in my case. Wow.
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A
I think probably most of our listeners are super familiar with 48 hours. It's one of the quintessential sort of true crime programs in our space. But I'm wondering, can you talk a little bit about the culture there and sort of like what goes into a 48 hour story?
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C
Oh, wow. I think our show is really focused on victims. We cover trials. And as you both know, trials are focused on the defendant. And in a case that involves a wrongfully convicted defendant, that's of course where I would go if I was doing the story. But most of these cases, you don't even hear much about the victim, and that's very difficult on the families. So 48 hours we tried to pick cases that involve important legal issues or important cultural issues and tell the victim's story from that. That, I would say is usually our priority. And what we do, of course, sometimes we have to turn them around right away. But most of the time we spend our time, as I mentioned, we read the trial transcripts, we read all the search warrants, we read transcripts with, if there are depositions, whatever we can, so that we can go in and tell both sides, and we tell both sides, defense and prosecution. We're telling both sides of this story. But the advantage that we have and you have in telling these cases is we can often tell the viewers or listeners facts that they're not going to hear at the trial, facts that they're not going to see on Court TV or anywhere else. Intimate little details that we might find from interviewing the families of prosecutors or. And where I really focus personally are on the heroes of this story, and I don't think I'm overstating that word. People who are put in extraordinary circumstances, who really step up, whether it's the investigators or the defendants who somehow get through 28 years behind bars when they shouldn't be, or a story we're doing for this fall that involves a young woman, not an unusual story, who was killed by her boyfriend. And he was convicted. So he has been convicted. So I'm actually saying he killed her. But the mother and her two sisters, how they fought for justice and wanted to make sure that his case did go to trial. And because it didn't go right away, it took a couple two and a half years. And so that's where I think 48 Hours focuses. And I never get tired of these stories. I don't know why. There's always some different interesting angle to it or different personalities. I still love telling these stories.
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A
That's amazing. I feel like I'm getting some of the elements of this, but I wanted to drill down a bit. What do you feel makes a 48 hours Aaron Moriarty story? What are the stories that really strike your fancy or light a passion in you where you're like, this is the story I'm going to cover? I mean, I guess I'm asking you to talk about your signature approach.
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C
Well, the stories. There are some stories have gone on 48 hours, wrongful convictions that I pushed for that. Really. So those are ones that are definitely have my mark on it, but also like, I'm a twin. And so our season premiere involves a twin who killed his twin sister. And I was like, how does that happen? I don't understand this. So that was. I had a real personal and I felt even a valuable insight. There's one part of this case where the prosecutors are very tough on the defendant because he called 911 instead of calling out for his parents, who were also in the house. And my insight on that is, as a twin sister, is that often twins look to their twin first before their parents. You know, you know, your twin, you shared a womb and often a room, which I did with my sister. And so. And I've seen that time and time again with twins. And so I felt that was something the prosecutors might not have realized, that not calling the parents made more sense to a twin because he says he was trying to get help for his sister. It's an intriguing story. Again, I think I need stories that fascinate me. I've been doing it so long. So that may be a signature Aaron Moriarty story that it's gotta be one that people haven't heard before. And I care very deeply about trying to arm people, both men and women, from bad relationships that can end in tragedy. I don't understand why they still keep happening with such frequency. I've done both where males are victims as well as women, although it's usually women. And I feel that I have to do these stories so that maybe a light will go over somebody's head that you, you know, because I hear over and over again from people, oh, that just happens on tv. That's not going to happen to me. Well, our stories are real, and you know that. And so those are real people, and it happened to them.
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B
When you talk about how your work may influence people in the broader world, maybe to realize they're in a dangerous relationship or things of that nature, I recall seeing you speak in another interview where you made an interesting point that you also feel that 48 hours helps make people better jurors. Can you elaborate on that?
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C
Oh, I feel that totally, Kevin. I feel that true crime shows, true crime podcasts, really do make a difference, not just even whether you're going to become a juror, but have you understand these stories, not automatically accepting what the prosecution says, be a little more skeptical. But I definitely think that jurors now, when they come to a courtroom, ask more questions, question the prosecution more, listen more for evidence. I'd like to think, I mean, I think the Karen Reid case, however you feel about it, this was a case where the prosecution was punished for having some questionable pieces of evidence and witnesses. These are jurors who have been watching these stories and know kind of what to look for, right or wrong. I'm not judging whether people, you know, because I don't know whether she committed murder or not, but I do think these were jurors who had been, who knew a lot about the criminal justice system. And I think true crime, these stories that people sometimes dismiss as entertainment, really.
- [17:13]
A
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- [17:26]
B
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B
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A
How do you build up the trust as a journalist to get some of these subjects talking about maybe something that's like the worst day of their lives or something that happened to a loved one or just a, perhaps a case that was incredibly stressful for the attorneys. How do you kind of get them in the chair and then get them to open up on camera? I imagine that's a, that's a difficult process for people who perhaps are not used to that.
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C
Oh, no question. I think it does help that I've been on air, you know, since before some of these people were born. Honestly. You know, I think there's a familiarity, I think there's a sense that 48 hours does not sensationalize stories. And I do not sensationalize stories. I never forget the fact that there are real people involved here. There are some times where I'm on a story and it feels like you're in the middle of a Coen Brothers movie because it's so outrageous, the details. And yet on the other hand, real people died or real people lost someone they loved. And so that I think I walk in with some recognition. I mean, people don't say yes to you unless they kind of Know who you are and know who 48 hours is. But I also think I put my questions aside. I spend a lot of time preparing on these interviews. I think everyone I work with would confirm what I'm saying. I spend a lot of time reading everything, going through my questions, and then I put my questions aside and I hope that they're in my head and that what somebody says will remind me of all the things I have to ask them. And I look at them during the interview because I do know it's stressful. There are a lot of lights on them, there are a lot of people in the room, and I want them only to look at me. And that, that's really important to me.
- [20:48]
A
And then I want to ask you one more question, more about journalism, and then I want to get onto this case. But I, I do want to ask you, you know, obviously it's such an interesting and perhaps difficult time for journalism. Do you have any advice for people who are looking to go into that field, who are getting started in journalism?
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C
Well, oh, it's, it is a very tough time. And I'm not going to pretend I have any wisdom. I've never run into anything like this before in my life and in my career. I think that the benefit of this is journalists should always be careful with everything they say. And today that's never been more important. But as I say that, I said you still have to say it. You know, you have to check and double check and fact check and all of that matters. And today if you don't, you could lose your job. And yet you cannot be intimidated. You have to tell your, these stories. I think we'll get better journalism out of it as long as people remind themselves, you know, you didn't become a journalist to be liked. You didn't become a journalist. You have all nice things said about you. You became a journalist to tell stories and tell them truthfully. And so that is what my mantra is going to be right now. But I'm not going to pretend that I am not unsettled by these times. I work for a network that has been sued by the President. The President has sued another network very recently. You can't ignore that. You cannot ignore that. But we, we have a job to do. And I hate to sound all high minded about this, but there's no democracy without, you know, someone who spotlights a case or who talks about difficult issues. So, you know, we're all in this. We just have to, you know, slug through it.
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A
Right? Yeah.
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B
Over and above some of those Political things you just mentioned. Is it difficult just to immerse yourself in some of these terrible stories day after day? How do you handle being with these people and having them tell you the stories of the absolute worst things in their lives?
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C
And that is really interesting, but I think it has to do with what I had mentioned is that I focus on the heroes in this story. Yes, there was a case I actually got off. I could not. Well, there's been two. There was one where a young man killed his girlfriend live and I could not look at that video. And I decided I was not the right person to do that story. And I actually got off of it. 48 hours did do it with another correspondent. I did not. I did not think that was the right story for me because I couldn't get it out of my head. And you can't operate like that. The other one was I started on Newtown and I did one day of shooting and I'm a mother like a lot of people. And I found I could not stop being emotional during the interviews. And I did tell them I was not the right person to continue on the story. So that doesn't happen to me very often. I have cried during interviews. You can't help. Used to be, oh, that's so verboten. You know, you can't cry as a journalist. You can't show emotion. We're doing long interviews with people who happen to be very well lit. So you're really seeing their face. I never take my eyes off their face. I can feel their emotion. And so I can cry with people. But I don't focus on the. The awfulness of the crime. I focus on what is being done to try to find justice. And that has always been how I've gotten through it. And I think it's. It's really important.
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A
Absolutely. So I want to go into this Daniel Marsh case, I suppose. How did the murders of Oliver Northup and Claudia Maupin sort of first cross your desk?
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C
Well, because at the time when. So we started working this story a few years later, a couple years later, but it was because here was one of the most adept, I hate to call him that, killers. And he was only 15, 15 years of age. And at the time in, In April of 2013, there was no evidence left behind. There were no fingerprints, there was no DNA. And the cops thought, oh, this is somebody within the family has to be a suspicious killing. And they really planned it because there's just no evidence at all. So they only solved the case because the killer started Bragging about it, I'm not sure. And they would have caught him. So he's convicted and you think, oh, okay, fine. This terrible young man who was, by his own words, during an interrogation, kind of a serial killer in training, was behind bars. And then when we started on it, the law had changed in California, and he was going to have two chances of getting out again. And so that raised so many interesting questions. Important, important questions. One is he was diagnosed as a psychopath. So the course it raises the questions, was he born that way? Was there something in his childhood that made him that way? So that was an important question to answer. The other is, what do you do with someone like that?
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B
Then?
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C
Do you keep him behind bars forever? And in this case, what happens if he does get out? And does this mean that all these new studies that show that most youthful offenders can be rehabilitated, are there just some exceptions to the rule? And was Daniel Marsh that exception? And that continues to be an intriguing question. And so that's why we first started on the story for 48 hours. But the issues continue. There is such a movement in this country to give second chances, a rightful movement to give second chances to. To many youthful offenders. But it seems like the Daniel Marsh case may be that outlier, and it's worth talking about and talking to the experts. When we talked about this case at CrimeCon a couple of weeks ago, and I brought to the panel a psychiatrist who had interviewed Daniel Marsh twice during the Q and A, two teachers got up and said, what do we look for? We have students that we're worried about. What do we do? And so I realized that this case, 15, that we're doing for a podcast is as relevant today as it was in 2013 and 14. Yeah, that was a long winded answer, but that's why we're doing it.
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A
I do want to ask you, as you worked on this podcast, as you worked on this story as a whole, from the time that you started covering it, what were you able to learn about these two victims from those who loved them?
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C
Well, you know, they were really special. That's. That is, you know, they were late in life. They had found each other late in life. I love this story that Claudia Maupin moved to Davis, California. She was in her 50s, determined to find love. She was going to. And her family laughed about that. And I always loved that. And she did. She went to church and found the love, really, of her late life. And they combined these two big families, and everybody seemed to get along. And so that's why it was so shocking when they couldn't find them on a Sunday morning. You know, Chip was. He sung at church. He was not gonna miss Easter Sunday, of all things. But nobody. Nobody thought that they get murdered. They didn't have any enemies. And that is, of course, then why the investigators focus on the family. And that was an important part of this story, too, you guys. You know what? When a stranger is the killer, of course investigators look at the family. They have to. But in this case, it was so painful for the family because there happened to be two grandsons. Chip had two grandsons who had some mental health issues. And so the police, you know, they wanted to resolve this. This was a horrible murder. This killer was out there. They needed to resolve it. But they really put pressure on these two young men, and years later, one of them took his life. And the family does believe that this. This played a part in it. And so that. That's an important story to tell, too. So every aspect of this case mattered to me. Again, as you could see, I'm really focusing on the victims. Sarah Rice, the granddaughter who took it upon herself to really fight his release and is still determined to do it. And I noticed at CrimeCon that people just so connected to her and kept telling her how brave she was and how great it was that she was not just protecting her family from this man, but the community. I mean, he will say that he's ready to get out, and at some point, a parole board is going to have to decide. He's going to be eligible for parole in 12 years, and so he's going to have to decide. But I think these stories will help inform whoever has to make that decision in 12 years as the years go on. Who was he back then? Who was he at the time when he asked to be released?
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A
Yeah, no, I mean, absolutely. And it is so brave that, you know, their families continue to speak out. And frankly, you know, when you look at what Daniel Marsh did, it's pretty. It's pretty. I think people have this perception that, you know, younger offenders and teenage offenders, that it's usually something like poverty or really bad home life or there's some kind of real reason. But, I mean, did this case change your view on that? Like, is. Are there sometimes people who just do these things and it's kind of inexplicable?
- [31:39]
C
Yes, it did, because I had done a story. I got a letter from a young man by the name of Bobby Bostick, who lives in Missouri, and he was serving consecutive sentencing for a robbery. He did when he was 16, his gun went off and he did wing one of his victims. He didn't kill anybody. And the judge thought he had no. No hope at all. And so she. She sentenced him to 240 years in prison. So he wrote me and said, when he was 42, and wrote me and said, look, I've changed my life. I've written books, I've taken classes. Would you do a story on me? And I wrote him back saying, no, you know, you know, you know, don't call me, I'll call you. But. But then I just. Out of curiosity, I called the judge who sentenced him, and it turned out she was aware of how much he changed his life and didn't want to die if he was still in prison. So I thought, whoa, this is an interesting story. So I did it for the morning, didn't do it for 48 hours. You know, as you asked me, what is a quintessential Erin Moriarty story, you could see it on the morning, too. I go to them and go, I think this is an interesting story. So I did. And some. You know, so the long story short, he gets parole and he gets out, and he is living an exemplary life, and I am so glad I did that. But now I look at a Daniel Marsh, and I saw the interrogation that the FBI Special Agent Chris Campion did with him, and he talked about, unlike Bobby Bostick, who said, I was horrified when the gun went off, I ran, you know, so instead, Daniel Marsh is saying, all I thought about was how I could do it again. I would wear a different mask, I would wear different clothes, but I was going to do it again. Those are two very different human beings. And even though he says that now, he wouldn't do it, he said it in a TEDx talk that he did in 2018, that he would never do it again, and that, you know, hurt people, hurt people, and that he was damaged, and that's the only reason why he lashed out. Can we. Can we trust that this was a young man who enjoyed the killing? And Chris Campion later told me that it was the scariest person he had ever interviewed. It's an FBI agent who's interviewed some pretty bad guys. So that did change my view. Bobby Bostick and Daniel Marsh. And I think that's. Again, that goes back to your question. How do you get somebody to sit down? You know, unlike every other part of television, where you really want young, beautiful people, you know, my age, my experience is. Is a boon here because I've seen it all. I think I have. And yet then each time I never saw a sleepwalking case. So I feel I bring that wisdom, that curiosity and the experience to every story I do.
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B
I'm curious. You really have covered so many cases and you have so much experience. Do you have any big picture observations about the state of criminal justice in this country?
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C
Well, I would have until recently. I feel that, that we're kind of. It's cyclical how we view crime. There's no question we'll sometimes just do a crackdown on crime and whoever gets in the way goes to prison. And that really happened in the 1990s. And a lot of the stories, the wrongful convictions I did involve young black men who had very little evidence against them and they're convicted. And it was, it felt assembly line to me when I looked at these cases. I'm more hopeful today because we have so much more technology. We have DNA, we have cameras everywhere, we have people using phones. So I feel that we still have bias, we still have racism, we still have all that still exists within the system. But I think there are more checks and balances in the system. And we have so much spotlight. We have all these spotlights. You put a spotlight on. We put a spotlight on these cases. And it's really. There are still, as you know, some very mysterious cases that we'll never know the answer to. But I'm more hopeful about the criminal justice system. I'm not hearing as many, I'm not seeing as many wrongful convictions that happened in the mid to late 2000s. You know, I'm not, you know, up to now, you don't. I'll hear some 2001, 2002, but that's when DNA started. So I'm very, very hopeful that the system will work better. What I'm negative about is, despite all that we do on these stories, all of us do people still want to kill people. So I'm shocked. Like, the question I never asked, but I want to, because when you interview someone who's been convicted, but they say, oh, I didn't do it, I want to say, what were you thinking? You threw your life away. But I don't say that because they're going to say, I didn't do it. But I want to say, you could have gotten divorced instead your kids are now without their, you know, mother, without their dad, you know, what were you thinking?
- [37:29]
A
I want to ask you, what do you think some of these people are thinking? I mean, do you have like, any, any ability to be, like, what, separate, you know, I mean, so many people get divorced and it's a negative experience. Very few end up killing the person they're divorcing. What separates the.
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C
The.
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A
I mean, the wheat from the chaff?
- [37:46]
C
I guess desperation sometimes age sometimes. You know, like, if you do notice many of the young men who kill women are young, and you just wish, oh, couldn't you have just gotten to be 35? And you'd see it through different lenses. I think parents, I'm a mother of a son. That has always been a big issue for me. You know, you treat women well, and I don't know if all parents do that. And so I think, you know, you notice it's in a. It often happens in the spur of a moment type of thing. Or we did a story last year of a guy, he just. It was building up. He knew his. His girlfriend had left him and it was building up. And he followed her one night and then he just followed her in and killed. Killed her and seriously injured the guy she was with. It seems spur the moment. And so I don't know how to totally prevent that, but I do think the more we talk about women having to protect themselves and getting out of relationships and telling people, the better it is. But I don't know what they were thinking. You know, I. Not in a million years am I ever going to kill somebody because I know I got caught and I don't want to go to prison. So, you know, I. There's no such thing as the perfect crime anymore. You know, you're going to make a mistake. Your phone is going to give away, Your car is going to give you away. You know, do people know that now, modern cars, you're driving a cell phone that can be tracked by police. I mean, I've run into people who didn't know that. It's going to give you away. Take a breath.
- [39:28]
B
I'm curious. You mentioned that you often do stories for CBS Sunday Morning. Of course you do. 48 hours. Now you're doing this podcast. What's the difference in how you cover a case for 48 hours and how you're covering it on the podcast?
- [39:44]
C
Well, I get more time on the podcast, so. And I think the podcast is a little more personal. I can talk about what we encountered when we go in the field. You know, I can't really spend the time talking about how devastating it was for the family when these two grandsons became the focus of an investigation in the Northup and Maupin case. But I could in the podcast. I can talk at greater length with the psychiatrist. And now, because the psychiatrist who initially, initially interviewed Daniel Marsh was part of his defense team for one of these later hearings, has his thinking has evolved. He did think when he first met him the second time around, when he was older, that there was a chance that he had changed. He's no longer quite as sure. And so that was the benefit of doing the podcast. I could update it. I could talk to people in greater length, and these stories change over time. So the podcast is up to date.
- [40:58]
B
Do you imagine yourself doing other podcasts or other cases that have really affected you?
- [41:03]
C
Oh, I think so. You know, I started. I have actually been doing podcasts for a long time. I, you know, have this podcast that hasn't been. I haven't been doing it so much lately. My Life of Crime, which were all the cases that I thought were worth talking about again and going back over. Also talking. I did a podcast about the impact of being a crime reporter on your children. And I brought my son in for. I interviewed him along with another one of my colleagues, Richard Schlesinger, who used to be a correspondent, 48 hours, and talked about the impact of always being surrounded by crime. As much as I tried not to bring it home, I think you can tell by the way I talk and by the number of stories I do that it's not just a job to me. It is part of my life. So I could not completely leave it in the office and not bring it home. Also, I look at it through the lens of a lawyer. So I was always talking about the legal issues and what was important. And I instructed him, as I instruct all viewers and listeners, that if the police want to talk to you, either get a lawyer or say no. Because I have seen too many cases where people have been either overcharged or wrongfully charged and convicted simply because of what they said initially to the police. And so my son is very well versed on that.
- [42:39]
A
When I look at something like the Daniel Marsh case, it's just such an incredibly disturbing crime. And, you know, seemingly just the motive is not something that most people can really understand. And these two likable, lovable victims who didn't harm anyone and were just, you know, enjoying their lives. When you. When you're looking at a case like that, how do you balance kind of like the horror of all that with trying to be also fair to someone like Daniel Marsh and kind of tell his side of it, too?
- [43:10]
C
Well, I think it's really important to tell this side of the story because I, as a reporter I want to know what did. Cause this is. His dad said it was medication, and he was on a lot of medications. We raised that issue. Is that possible? I do. And because I see the experience of a Bobby Bostick who gets out after it was 16, 17 years and is a change man. You know, maybe there is a chance for someone like Daniel Marsh. It is such an important case to focus on. But I have to say, we do not give all the details of the crime because I didn't think you needed to know them all. I didn't at CrimeCon. I didn't in the podcast, and I didn't when I originally did the story for 48 hours. There are details to this crime that are simply horrific. But I didn't feel that telling the story truthfully and fairly needed that. There's another kind of interesting aspect of the Daniel Marsh case that I think is interesting. So he was turned down, turned in by a friend of his same age. And this friend had watched all the videos with him. They were really close. And yet Daniel Marsh felt seemingly. Seemed to have no empathy for his victims. But his best friend worried and worried about, oh, my God, what if he hurt somebody else? He had feelings. So you had these two young men with very similar backgrounds and in very similar environments watching the same very, you know, violent video games and videos, but one enjoyed it and the other really worried about it. That was such an interesting part that needed to be told with this story, which made me think, oh, my God, there is a difference maybe in the makeup of these two young men. And maybe being a psychopath is something that we can't treat away. I don't know. Certainly we have his dad talk about saying, no, he was only this way because of medication. But we need to raise the question that there's a possibility that this young man is just. I won't use the word the prosecutor used. I mean, he called him evil, but just not. Not safe to return to the community.
- [45:49]
A
Absolutely. I see we have limited time left. I wanted to throw it to you to ask you, is there anything we didn't ask you about that you wanted to get into, either about your career or about the Daniel Marsh case or about anything?
- [46:01]
C
No, I'm just very grateful that you would talk about this, and I do hope that. That people will listen to the podcast and let me know how it is, because I really do care about the impact we have. As you. As you can tell, I do want to make a difference.
- [46:20]
A
Absolutely. And people can listen to 15 pretty much wherever they listen to their podcast.
- [46:24]
C
Exactly. And you can't miss it. If you look up like you could just Google it and you look up CBS News 15 or you look up Daniel Marsh, there's this artwork which is unsettling, more unsettling than anything else, where, you know, the 15 stands out. That's why we named it 15. You have to be reminded all the way through this was a 15 year old kid and that's what makes this story stand out from some others.
- [46:51]
A
Absolutely. Well, Erin, thank you so much for taking the time to talk to us. We so, so appreciate it.
- [46:56]
C
I am so grateful. Thank you.
- [46:58]
A
We want to thank Erin for taking the time to speak with us. And remember, you can check out the new podcast from CBS 48 Hours. That's 15 inside the Daniel Marsh Murders. It's out on all podcast platforms and we'll include some links to it in our show notes.
- [47:15]
B
Thanks so much for listening to the Murder Sheet. If you have a tip concerning one of the cases we cover, please email us@murdersheetmail.com if you have actionable information about an unsolved crime, please report it to the appropriate authorities.
- [47:36]
A
If you're interested in joining our Patreon, that's available at www.patreon.com murdersheet. If you want to tip us a bit of money for records requests, you can do so at www. Buymeacoffee.com murdersheet. We very much appreciate any support.
- [47:59]
B
Special thanks to Kevin Tyler Greenlee who composed the music for the Murder Sheet and who you can find on the web@kevintg.com if you're looking to talk with.
- [48:10]
A
Other listeners about a case we've covered, you can join the Murder Sheet discussion group on Facebook. We mostly focus our time on research and reporting, so we're not on social media much. We do try to check our email account, but we ask for patience as we often receive a lot of messages. Thanks again for listening.
- [48:32]
C
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- [48:45]
A
Have a good one.
- [48:45]
C
Yep, that too. Want one place to manage all your online and in person sales? That's kind of our thing wherever you sell. Businesses that grow great grow with Shopify. Sign up for your $1 a month trial at shopify. Com. Listen shopify. Com listen.