B (2:28)

Greg talked with us about what it is like to make that career switch and what it is like to practice criminal law in a middle sized town in Indiana.

A (2:37)

And I also got Greg to tell us a couple of embarrassing stories about Kevin. My name is Anya Cain. I'm a journalist.

B (2:44)

And I'm Kevin Greenlee. I'm an attorney.

A (2:47)

And this is the Murder Sheet.

B (2:48)

We're a true crime podcast focused on original reporting, interviews, and deep dives into murder cases.

A (2:55)

We're the Murder Sheet.

B (2:57)

And this is a conversation with Greg Long on drugs, tradition, and a career in law.

D (3:12)

Sam.

C (3:49)

So, Greg, thank you so much for joining us.

D (3:51)

You're welcome.

C (3:52)

I guess to start off with, can you just tell us a little bit about yourself?

D (3:56)

Sure. My name is Greg Long. I am an attorney in Columbus, Indiana. I have been an attorney now for 28 years. As of June 6, I believe I have mainly practiced in criminal law, but I have done some other things. But I spent 22 years as a deputy prosecutor here in town, and then I left in 2022 and opened up my own private practice and been doing that for the last three years.

C (4:25)

Absolutely. We're going to get into all of that very soon. But I also want to note, you were childhood friends with Kevin here.

D (4:31)

That is correct. That is correct. And correct me if I'm wrong. Did we go to preschool together too?

E (4:38)

I believe we did.

D (4:39)

I think we did too, because I have this vague memory of a preschool graduation. Why? I don't know.

E (4:44)

I actually remember that preschool graduation very well.

D (4:47)

Yes. And so I know we knew each other from there and also from church. And so we were actually pretty good friends back then. And we would hang out at each other's houses and hang out, and then we kind of lost touch, honestly, for a long time.

E (5:03)

25, 26 years.

D (5:04)

Yeah. Yeah.

E (5:05)

Not longer.

D (5:06)

Yeah, because. Yeah. And then I think I ran into you once in court when you were interning for a judge down here. And then it's been since then, which has probably been 25 plus years. And I read an article and saw that you were doing a podcast and I reached out to you on Facebook and here we are.

E (5:25)

And Anya wants to take this opportunity to get some embarrassing dirt on me.

C (5:29)

It's called investigative journalism.

D (5:31)

Kevin, what would you like to know?

C (5:33)

What's the weirdest stuff he was doing?

D (5:36)

Oh, weirdest stuff. Boy, that's. That's a long list. But I will. I will try to narrow it down. No, I I think one of the things I remember we used to. We used to play at each other's houses and Kevin was very particular about the bread he liked. And I remember my. My mom, who was very frugal and would buy the cheapest loaf of bread she could find. And. And she was making us probably peanut butter and jelly or something. And. And I rec. Asking, is this going to be on Wonder Bread? And my mom lied and said, yes, yes it is. And made the sandwich and gave it to Kevin. And I don't think he knew the difference or if he did, he didn't say anything. I was completely.

A (6:19)

Yes, yes, your mom is an inspiration to me now.

D (6:24)

Perfect. Yeah. But no, yeah, we. We were really good friends back then. And then. Yeah, we went to different schools. So, you know, as people do, we kind of went our separate ways for a while. But yeah, no, I had a lot of great memories growing up and hanging out with Kevin's house. And one of the weird things is I got married to my wife. We've been married since 2002 and I've been living in the house that she had since we got married in 2002. And always in the back of my mind I thought, Kevin, I know he lived close to here. And I just couldn't remember the address. I kind of thought I remembered the street. And then when we reconnected recently, I was asking him about where that house was and turns out it's like three doors down from where I live now. So. Very strange. Yeah. Yeah.

A (7:10)

Thank you for the dirty.

D (7:12)

And there's others, but I won't do that on a podcast.

A (7:16)

That's for the after show.

C (7:17)

Yes, that's for the secret bonus episodes.

D (7:20)

There you go.

E (7:22)

That's what. You're almost kind of destined to become a lawyer because you have a long family history here. And can you tell us about that?

D (7:28)

Yeah, absolutely. So my. I'm actually the fourth generation attorney here in Columbus from my. My family. My dad was an attorney. He was also a judge for 12 years. His dad, my grandfather, was an attorney and I knew him growing up. I think he passed away when I was about 12 years old, so I have memories of him. And then two of my great grandfathers were also attorneys here. One was a. At the time was the longest serving judge in Bartholomew County. He was a judge for 23 and a half years. And then the other great grandfather was an attorney. And I actually remember him because he lived to be 97. And so when I was a child, those are some of my first memories were going to see him in the retirement home and hanging out with him. So that was kind of neat. But he was. Like I said, the two great grandfathers were the first generation. And then now my daughter is now practicing in town, and she's the fifth generation. So I describe it as a bad disease that will not leave the family. But, yeah, no, it's good. I'm really proud of my daughter and proud to carry on the history. I mean, I think it was early 1900s when they first started practicing here in town. So we've got a long history here.

E (8:45)

I remember your father quite well. He was a teacher at the community college, in addition to his legal career. And he was really one of the people that really got me interested in law. You could just see his passion for it, and that was really inspirational. That's right. And I think my grandmother actually worked for your grandfather. It's not like she was a court reporter.

D (9:06)

Yeah, that's probably true.

E (9:08)

You mentioned that there was a theater in town called the Crump, an old movie theater, and one of your relatives was involved in a case concerning that.

D (9:17)

Yes, yes. And I just reread that to make sure I'm going to get this right. But, yeah, so my great grandfather that I actually have memory of seeing when I was a young child in the 1920s, he was the elected prosecutor here in Bartholomew County. And back then, they had a blue law where you were not allowed to show movies. Well, you could show movies, but you couldn't charge admission, couldn't make a profit. And the owner of the Crump theater, which still exists, although it's been through a lot of renovations, but it's still here. And they're trying to figure out what to do with it, but it was showing movies, and he decided to open up on Sunday and show a movie in violation of the law. Well, the police heard about that, and they went and went to the theater and they shut it down. And I actually was reading about this last night, and I'd forgotten that the police, when they went in there, the theater owners knew that they were probably going to be coming in there. And they locked the door to the projector room, and they would not let the police in there until they threatened to bust the door down. So they eventually let them in. And then this, of course, was on a Sunday. They got arrested. They had to post a $200 bond. I think they arrested five or six people. And this is what blows my mind, just knowing the way the law works now and courts work now. But. But when they got arrested, their Trial was that Thursday, a jury trial. And so they had the jury trial on that Thursday following their arrest, and it was a hung jury, three to three. So they. They did not convict them. Eventually it went on for a couple more months, and then they charged them again. And at that point they went to trial and they were all acquitted. And then they kind of came to an agreement. Okay, we're going to show movies on Sunday. And a lot of the church leaders were objecting to it, but they said, as long as you don't show movies when our services are going on, we won't complain. And now we have Sunday movies. But I didn't know that my great grandfather was prosecuting people for showing movies. It must have been really slow back then.

E (11:26)

What was it that got you interested in the law of just seeing your family?

D (11:31)

Yeah, it really was. I never really thought going to college that I wanted to be a lawyer, you know, it never really crossed my mind. And in college, they have a. The college I went to had a winter term in January where you could do internships. And so one January, I decided to do an internship with my dad. And so I was with him the whole month, followed him around work, went to court and did all that. And that's really when I kind of became interested in going to law school. And then I did and came back to Columbus and been here ever since.

C (12:02)

What about that experience inspired you?

D (12:07)

It wasn't boring, put it that way. In college, I had some summer jobs in factories and stuff. And I remember I never wanted to go back to school so bad as when I was in a hot factory for eight, ten hours a day. And it was just interesting and being able to help people and help people navigate through the legal system. And it just became something I wanted to do and became interested in.

C (12:34)

I guess you can talk to us a little bit about the broad outlines of your career, but I guess can you tell us a little bit about some of the more memorable cases or anecdotes that you sort of were working on, either as a deputy prosecutor or later as a defense attorney?

D (12:47)

When I first came back to practice, I basically took over my dad's practice, and he decided to retire and move to Florida. So I took over his practice. I was doing criminal defense, family law, a little bit of everything. And then I got offered a job at the prosecutor's office. And it sounded interesting and. And I wanted to do it. And I felt like I could learn more there about how to practice law. And so I started working in the Prosecutor's office. In 1999, and I actually had the opportunity to sit second chair in a, in a murder trial here in the county. Now, when I say I sat second chair, that basically means I was a glorified note taker for the, the chief deputy prosecutor who was actually handling the case. But, but I learned just in that experience on how to try a case and what the things you needed to do in a high profile and complicated case. It was almost entirely circumstantial case. So that, that taught me a lot about doing that I did recently on the defense side. I represented a client in a, in a murder case. He was found guilty and sentenced to life in prison. But it was an interesting case in that he shot his girlfriend in the head. There was no dispute there. The dispute was whether it was accidental or not. He says that the gun accidentally went off. Obviously that was in dispute. But then the bad part was after he shot her, she didn't die immediately. And everything I'm telling you was in the trial. So I don't want you to think I'm violating attorney client privilege by saying any of this. But basically, after he shot her and she was still alive, he decided to end her misery and by duct taping a bag around her head and died. So it was an interesting murder in that I had never seen one where there were multiple causes of death. The pathologist found a cause of death for the gunshot wound and then also for the asphyxiation with the bag. So that was interesting. I've had some other situations, one that comes to mind now that I'm speaking into a microphone. I was in a misdemeanor court one one day as prosecutor. And at that time we were all up in front of the bench and talking, and there was a gentleman who was in jail. And at that time, the microphones amplified everything in the courtroom. If you were close to a microphone, and all of a sudden he starts to step back from the bench, and he said these words, excuse me, your honor, I have gas. And. And then he backed up to the microphone, not knowing that the microphone was there, and just let a big one rip for the entire courtroom to hear. It was really difficult trying to keep a straight face. And I did a good job until I looked over at the corrections officer who brought him over from the jail, and he is just over there just busting out laughing. And that just kind of took everything away. So there are funny things that happen in court other than just, you know, serious things. But yeah, that was, that was one of the more memorable, memorable days Shining.

A (15:53)

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C (17:02)

That's amazing.

D (17:03)

Yeah.

C (17:04)

What is it like being a prosecutor for so many years and like, how is it different than what we sort of see on TV a lot?

D (17:10)

It's definitely not as exciting as what you see on tv to be honest with you. It's a lot of pressure because prosecutors are always expected to win. You are the one that files the case, which really is one of the most powerful tools a prosecutor has is deciding whether to file or not file a case. But you're deciding what cases to file and you have to review that and see if you're going to be able to meet the, meet the burden of proof. And there's a lot of pressure because you don't want to lose. And of course I've lost cases. Every prosecutor's practice for any number of years will lose cases. And you don't, you don't like that, you don't like losing. So there is a lot of pressure. But you have the burden of proof. I mean defense attorney, they could literally sit there and take a nap and do nothing. Most don't and I don't recommend they do. But it's the entire burdens on the prosecutor. So you have to present the case, you have to prove it to the jury and you got to convince six or 12 people, you know, that this person is guilty beyond a reasonable doubt and that's a high burden. So it's, it's, it was a lot of pressure, I would say what's it like?

E (18:15)

Dealing with the families of the victims.

D (18:20)

Can be very rewarding. It can also be very frustrating sometimes. You know, understandably, you have loved ones who have lost somebody and they can get frustrated with, with the legal system. And I get that. At the same time, it can be very rewarding when you, when you've sought justice for them and for their loved one and you're able to at least provide them some closure. I mean, obviously nothing is ever going to bring, bring the people back, but it is nice and rewarding to, to be able to. To talk to them and, and afterwards and, and often most of the time they're very thankful. But that you certainly have some victims, families who, again, I understand they're frustrated with the system. It's not a perfect system. And a lot of people see it as the defendants have all the rights and the victims don't have any rights. And to some extent there is some truth to that because of the Constitution. And so I understand how frustrating that can get. But again, it's also very rewarding when you're able to help somebody.

E (19:21)

I can imagine sometimes when you're making those decisions about whether or not to file, victims or families may not understand why you may choose not to file.

D (19:31)

Sure. Yeah. Or agree. We would certainly try to explain to them, you know, why we cannot file this, why we cannot prove a case. And they will get frustrated. And I will say police officers get frustrated too. There's always this tension between prosecutors and police officers because police in general, anytime they make an arrest and send a case over, they think it's a good case. I did it. Don't tell me it's a bad case and they want it filed. And, and so having discussions with victims or police officers as to the reasons you're not filing that is, yeah, definitely one of the toughest things to, to do. But at the same time, you can also file something that you believe in and you can put, especially when you're talking about child victims or child molesting cases, you can put a child on the stand and. And then you lose. Is the kid better off now that you tried, or would it have been better off if you hadn't filed it? If you didn't think you could prove the case because that's traumatic for the child to have to get up there and testify and, and then, and then to have a jury find that person not guilty, that, that, you know, what they did to you, and that makes it feel like, you know, people don't believe me. So, you know, we Take that into consideration, too. You don't want to put somebody through that unless absolutely necessary or you've got a strong case.

E (20:51)

That does sound like an enormous amount of pressure. How did you deal with that for 20 some years?

D (20:56)

Probably not well, but my wife is a now retired attorney, and so that was really helpful because she knows what I'm going through and I know what she was going through. And so that's helpful to be able to talk it out with her. That's probably one of the best ways we dealt with stress was to just talk to each other and understand. And you really have to develop a thick skin and a dark sense of humor. That's probably the, the best way to, to deal with it.

C (21:25)

How do you maintain a positive or a productive relationship with local law enforcement when you're doing all this without, you know, being somebody who's just going to get rolled whenever they have a weak case?

D (21:35)

Yeah, that, that can be tough. It really can, especially in a small town to, to have a good relationship. I'd like to think I had a good relationship with most of the officers I deal with, but I, I know, you know, there are some that would be frustrated with me. I always kind of took the view that I never wanted to prosecute someone that I did not. Was not, you know, positive. That I felt was guilty is. That's like my worst nightmare is to prosecute somebody that, that actually didn't do a crime. I think that's horrible, you know, when that happens. And so I would always kind of lean on the side of if, if it looks like I'm not going to be able to prove it or maybe they really didn't do it. I'm not going to file that case because to me, that's, you know, that's, that's part of our system. You know, Gu. People do go free, but you do not want innocent people being prosecuted for something they didn't do. And I took that very seriously. And so that was. That could be difficult with police because again, and I, and I understand, I mean, they've made this arrest, they've done all this work and done this investigation, and then to turn it over to somebody sitting in an office who's Monday morning quarterbacking and just deciding, no, I'm not going to file this. I understand the frustration they have, but, but I think that's, that's a good part of the system. You don't want police officers making the decision on which cases people are going to get charged. They make the initial decision. They make the initial Decision whether to arrest them and to send the report over. But then somebody else should look at it with a new set of eyes and make sure that it's a good case.

C (23:09)

And then in terms of defense attorneys, obviously it's an adversarial system. Everyone's strenuously arguing on both sides. But is that something where often on TV it's very heated and people are yelling at each other? Is that the reality or is it a little bit more nuanced?

D (23:24)

Sometimes it is the reality. Reality. Not very often. There are some attorneys, I am generally pretty calm, but there are some attorneys that are not and will yell. So that. That does happen. But it, that is so rare. It, it's for the most part, very respectful. Between prosecutors and defense attorneys. We. We get along well. And honestly, sometimes that can cause issues with clients because they think, oh, you're friends with the prosecutors just because we're talking to them. Friend in being friendly. So. And I've run into that in my own. I have been accused on multiple occasions by some of my clients of, well, you're probably still working for the prosecutor's office because you used to do that. They don't send me any money, so I am not working for them. But no, for the most part, prosecutors and defense attorneys get along, but there are certainly times where I've been frustrated and other people have been frustrated, and you can definitely see that in court. But for the most part, it's not nearly as exciting as movies or TV make it out to be.

C (24:26)

It really does seem, though, that a lot of people, yourself included, do kind of have experience on both sides, so you can kind of perhaps empathize a bit.

D (24:33)

Yeah, and that's, that's actually very common. I think probably the most common thing that people do. A lot of people will start out in a prosecutor's office to get experience, because it is great experience. You're in court all the time. You're dealing with so many different attorneys, so many different personalities, so you learn how to, to deal with all that. And so there are a lot of people that will start out as prosecutors, do that for a few years, and, and then go to the other side and open up a practice or join a law firm. So it's. It's actually very common. You know, a lot of people ask, how can you do that? But it's, it's. I don't find it that difficult. I mean, it's. The cases are the cases. You're just on a different side, arguing a different point of view. But, but it's the same analysis you're looking at. And. And oftentimes a lot of the same people I represented, a lot of people that I've actually prosecuted. And I think maybe when we met before, I think I maybe mentioned this, and this is still pending, so I won't mention names, but I. I had a client or have a client now who I prosecuted. He was the second trial ever prosecuted in. In. In court it or a jury trial. And he got a very lengthy sentence and is still in prison. And he actually contacted me to file for a modification of his sentence, which obviously it's a conflict because I prosecuted him, but it is a conflict that can be waived. And he, of course, agreed to waive it because he wanted me to represent him because he felt like I could. I knew the case, I knew what was happening, and so he wanted me to represent him. And then the prosecutor also has to agree to waive that conflict. And I talked to the prosecutor and she agreed. Agreed to waive it. So. So that's kind of interesting that it's come from full circle from, you know, like I said, early trial there. He's still in prison. And now I've been hired to represent them on a modification.

E (26:27)

One part of the process people have questions about is plea bargains. How would you determine when to offer a deal, what sort of deal, things of that nature.

D (26:36)

Yeah, plea bargains have a, you know, a bad reputation. Nobody likes to think. Plea bargain, plea bargain. Without plea bargains, our system would fall apart because you would need so many courts, so many judges, so many prosecutors, so many attorneys, way more than we have now. So as a prosecutor, when I'm sending an offer, I'm looking at a number of different things. Probably the most important thing is which count can I prove beyond a reasonable doubt. And there may be multiple counts, and some counts are weaker than others. So that's first thing I'm looking at. Then I'm looking at their criminal history. How many times has this person been charged, convicted with crimes? I'm looking at probation. Have they been on probation before? Have they violated probation before? So all of that kind of goes into it when you're looking at plea bargain. And I would say different prosecutor's offices have different styles of philosophies. And so, you know, I. It honestly, it's different from county to county when you go in terms of plea bargains and courts. I mean, it's not necessarily a standardized, Standardized thing or even within the county with. We have, you know, multiple courts here in the. In the county. And in different courts, do a different way. And you got to realize who you're in front of and the prosecutor you're dealing with. Some prosecutors give better offers than others, and you just kind of have to look, learn that and, and know who you're dealing with and how to deal with it.

C (28:01)

What is it like practicing in Columbus.

D (28:03)

And Bartholomew county in terms of just.

C (28:07)

What kind of crime like landscape are we looking at?

D (28:10)

It's generally a pretty safe community. We don't have a lot of murders. It's not uncommon to have years with no murders. We do have a lot of property crime, and a lot of that is related to drug addiction. Drug addiction by far is the biggest issue that I and every other defense attorney and prosecutor deal with. If it's not a drug case, most of the time it's drug related. You know, if you have somebody who's shoplifting from Walmart, a lot of times it's so they can sell that stuff and buy drugs because they don't have a job and they want drugs. So I would venture to guess 95%, maybe even more of my cases involve some sort of substance abuse issues. And so that's a big thing. And our county and other counties around the state have been doing a better job with treatment and treatment courts. I was part of the first treatment court we had here in Bartholomew county, which was Veterans treatment Court. In fact, I just came back from the out of graduation today that I attended, but I was part of helping to form that court, and I was the prosecutor assigned to that court when it was formed back in 2015. And those courts are so different because they're not adversarial. The prosecutor and defense attorney, judge and probation, everybody works together to try to get the best outcome for this person. It's more focused on the person than just the crime. And if they get accepted into the court, they successfully complete the court and graduate, then most of the time they'll have their case dismissed, which is a big deal to a lot of them. So I think we're doing a better job in terms of treatment and doing that. There's always room for improvement. But I think the days of just locking up drug addicts is slowing down, as it should, in my opinion. Even when I was a prosecutor, I thought that too. Just because it's. It's clear that most of these people have drug issues and they, they need to deal with that. I did think of one other. It's kind of going back, but yeah, I did think it was my very first trial as a Prosecutor I. I kind of had one of those moments when I got the defendant who was testifying to confess to the crime on the stand. But there's a caveat. The problem is the jury did not realize he confessed to the crime on the stand. So he was charged. He had a fairly significant amount of methamphetamine when he was arrested on his person. And so he was charged with possessing methamphetamine with the intent to deliver, the intent to deal. And so when you're charged with that, you have to show not only did they possess the drugs, but they intended to deliver that to other people. He was on the stand, and during my cross examination, I was going through a number of questions and asked him, you know, well, how much meth do you normally use when you use? And he told me the amount, which was way less than what he had. And I said, well, you had so much more. What were you planning on doing with the rest of it? He said, I was going to give it to my friends. Boom, right there. Confession. The problem is, the jury went back and they sent back a question to the judge and asked, to be guilty of delivering, do you have to get money for it, which you do not in Indiana. It's not in the statute. It's nothing in there. They eventually came back and convicted him, but. But that. I was like, wow, this is great. My first jury trial, and I got the defendant to confess on the stand in front of the jury, but they didn't recognize that.

A (31:49)

So you had a Perry Mason moment, and they missed it.

D (31:53)

They missed it, they missed it, but they eventually came back with the right decision.

E (31:58)

That sort of raises something else. Some of these cases and the charges are complicated. How do you get a jury to understand the evidence?

D (32:09)

That can be very difficult, especially when you're dealing with scientific evidence. You. You really have to. I don't want to. I hesitate to say dumb it down, but you really kind of do have to dumb it down. Like, you're. Like you're, you know, presenting it to a sixth grader to try to make it more understandable. So I'm very, you know, I'd always try to recognize that and recognize, you know, you're looking at the jury to see if you have some confused looks on their face, and you try to get the witnesses to explain it in layman's terms. And some witnesses are better than others. You know, I had some witnesses that were just fantastic witnesses and. And juries loved them. And then sometimes you have scientific witnesses who are obviously very intelligent, know what they're doing and. But they're using words that nobody knows what you're talking about. And so you kind of have to slow them down and explain it. So you really have to be careful, especially when you're talking about complicated issues and scientific evidence, to make it easier to understand for a layperson. So that can definitely be a challenge.

C (33:12)

I'm curious, when you're kind of watching media on different crimes or court proceedings, do you ever say, like, oh, this thing never happens, or like, something that's really unrealistic about it?

D (33:25)

All the time. Especially not so much, obviously, with core tv, because they're usually showing real trials. But, yeah, I think the best example I can think of, and it drives my wife and I nuts, is when we watch A Few Good Men with Tom Cruise and Jack Nicholson. I mean, my gosh, it's great. Love the movie. But when Tom Cruise is just sitting there talking to the jury for like 10 minutes and then turns to Jack Nicholson and asks a question, it's like, that does not happen. You need to ask a question. You don't just talk to the jury and give your version, you know, during direct exam. So that. That always drives us nuts when we see stuff like that. Yeah.

C (34:03)

A lawyer should not be testifying.

D (34:05)

No, no, absolutely not. So. But again, very entertaining. Love the movie. But. But, yeah, not. Not realistic. And I would say most movies are. Are that way. Not very realistic.

C (34:16)

I always love it when someone brings out surprise evidence that no one's looked at before and it's like, like, wait, what?

D (34:22)

Yeah, that. That should never happen. I mean, ideally, if you have a prepared prosecutor and a prepared defense attorney, they should both know that case inside and out. They will know what evidence is. It is either coming in or going to be attempted to be brought in. And there should not be any surprises if as long as both sides are prepared as they should be, there should not be a surprise.

C (34:45)

What was your. I mean, what is your favorite part of trial and perhaps the most stressful part of trial for you?

D (34:50)

I'll be honest with you, I get really stress with jury trials. To me, the hardest part, I think, is picking a jury. I don't enjoy standing up with 12 or more strangers sitting there and having to ask them personal questions about their life, trying to figure out, are you going to be more on my side or the other side. I just do not enjoy that part of trial at all. When you're preparing for a trial, when I was preparing for my murder trial, that's all you're focusing on on is that trial. In fact, I was in the middle of that trial, and I was in here in my office working on a weekend, and my daughter texted me and asked if she could stop by with. With her boyfriend for a minute. And I thought, well, that's strange, because she knows I'm in the middle of a trial. So they came to tell me they got engaged, and I'm like, oh, congratulations. All right, I'm going back to work. So. So, no, it's. It's a lot of work. Even if it's just a fairly routine case, anytime you have a jury trial, it's a lot of work. You don't want to look stupid in front of just one of 12 people who are sitting there judging you, and they're sitting there watching you and. And everything you do. So you really have to be, you know, aware of everything that's going on and how you present yourself and. And it. You know, even though you know the case, I mean, it's. You're still having to think on your feet and think on your toes. I would say some. One of the most fun trials I had was when I was a prosecutor and the person was charged with. And I didn't even know this crime existed until I prosecuted it. He was charged with inmate fraud. So he. This is back when, you know, our local paper was still printing papers seven days a week, and he was sitting in jail on another charge, had nothing to do, and he saw a couple of gentlemen who had passed away, and it showed the funeral was going to be at this particular church, and it listed their widow's name, of course. And so he sent letters to the church to these widows and asking for money and trying to claim that your husband owed me money for X, Y, and Z. And of course, he never knew these people, and these were both elderly ladies. And fortunately, there was a gentleman at the church who intercepted the letters because he saw they came from jail and he recognized this might be something off. And so he contacted the. The police, and then the investigation began. But. So he was charged with inmate fraud. And this is kind of leading to another Perry Mason moment, although it's not quite as good as the other one he testified. And. And that was probably the most fun I ever had cross examining somebody, because I almost entirely didn't use notes. It was just. He would go somewhere and I'd be like. Like, you know, well, what about this? And I would get him so caught up in. In everything and in lies and. And that was really fun. And he eventually got found guilty, and the. The Perry Mason moment happened at the, the sentencing hearing. He was testifying on his own behalf at, at sentencing. And I finally just asked him, was like, are you still saying that you knew these people and, and they owed you money? And he kind of sat there for a second and looked down, and then all of a sudden he jumped up on the witness stand, stood up, put his right hand up and said, I did it. I did it. I didn't know those people. I did it. Still went to prison, but, yeah, he admitted he did it.

E (38:26)

That's amazing.

D (38:27)

Yeah. Yeah. That was an enjoyable case.

C (38:30)

It's making your job easy for you.

D (38:32)

Yeah, yeah.

E (38:33)

Talking about preparing for cases, I imagine sometimes, no specifics, but I imagine sometimes when you're a defense attorney preparing for a jury trial, you probably know you're not going to win 100%.

D (38:46)

Yeah.

E (38:47)

So how do you deal with that emotionally as you're going through this enormous amount of time to prepare?

D (38:54)

Well, as. As much pressure as I would feel as a prosecutor, like I said earlier, feeling like you should always win because you're expected to win, I think it's in some ways the opposite with a defense attorney, especially on a case where you, you, you pretty much know you're going to lose, there's not a whole lot of pressure. And you can almost be freer and asking questions and just trying different things. Doesn't work. But, but it is good practice to, to, to point out deficiencies in the case. It doesn't matter how perfect an investigation is, you will always find something that they, they could have done that they didn't do. I, I had a really bad case that I, I knew I was going to lose, and I had an unreasonable client and, and who just would not plead guilty. He was charged with dealing cocaine, and, and I, the. These facts just kind of blow me away about how good a case they had. This was actually in Marion County. The undercover narcotics officers went in and bought some narcotics from him, bought some cocaine from him, and they knew they were going to do that, so they had an anticipatory search warrant that, you know, if we go in there and we buy these drugs, we know he has drugs in there. So then we're to bust down the door and go in there and, and find some more evidence. So they went in there, they bought the drugs, they came out, and then almost immediately, as soon as they come out, SWAT team goes in. And this is another strange one, but I swear they go in. In one hand he has a bag of cocaine. In the other hand he has the Undercover buy money that he just got from the officers that, that just were in there. But he wanted a jury trial and he got a jury trial while. And I really had almost nothing to go on. And this was probably over 20 years ago and undercover video wasn't necessarily being used a lot in drug buys at that time. So that was kind of my only thing I had. I was cross examining him on, well, you know, we have video cameras, you know, you could have recorded this, we could have seen him actually doing this. But didn't work. They came back guilty as a. They, you know, probably should have. So in some ways there's less pressure because you, you don't think you're going to win. Now. I have had clients too early on in my career. Had a client, I remember who I was convinced, and I still am to this day, that, that he was basically framed by a police officer who had a grudge against him because the police officer was dating this guy's ex girlfriend. And he got arrested for illegal consumption and escape. And this guy walked, he did escape because he told me he was afraid of what this officer was going to do to him. He walked from a, it was a small town in our county and walked, I forget, maybe an hour or two to the closest other police station he could find. Went in there, first thing he did, said, give me a breath test. And they did. And it was zeros. And so that case. And again, that was early on in my career and I was, I was that, that was stressful because I really felt like this guy was innocent and I didn't want to screw that up. And ended up talked to the prosecutor, gave them kind of all the details and they dismissed the case. So it worked out in the end. But that can be stressful when you feel like you've got either an innocent client or somebody that could be innocent. That can be stressful for sure.

C (42:19)

And that's great to hear that the prosecutor dismissed that because that's how it should have. I mean, if it's tainted by something like that.

D (42:25)

Absolutely, absolutely. And there are some, some prosecutors that would not. But yeah, the good ones would. And she did the right thing. She was a prosecutor. I ended up working with when I went to the prosecutor's office and learned a lot from her. And that was one of the things, I mean, you, you gotta look at each case and do the right thing. I mean, nobody wants to convict an innocent person or they shouldn't want to convict an innocent person. I should say. I didn't want to.

E (42:48)

I mean, we Talk about cases where you expect to lose and lose. Have there been cases where you expect lose and you won?

D (42:55)

Yeah, in fact, I just had one about a month ago. I had a client who was, was charged and it was just a misdemeanor possession of paraphernalia case. And, and I had met with her several times and I was like, we can go to trial, but I'm, you know, there's real good chance you're gonna be found guilty. We went to the trial and, you know, again, it was a misdemeanor. It was a short, short bench trial. But then after the, you know, evidence was presented, the judge found her not guilty. And I was honestly shocked because I basically told her, I think you're going to be found guilty. You might want to consider this, this plea offer you've been given. So, yeah, that, that does happen occasionally.

C (43:33)

How do you manage, and this is perhaps more of a question for you as a, as a defense attorney, how do you manage client expectations and that relationship? Because you mentioned a couple situations where maybe people aren't being super reasonable. I'm sure that's not everybody, but.

D (43:47)

Yeah, yeah, I mean, there, yeah, there are definitely a lot of people that can be unreasonable. I always try to manage expectations. I don't. Now there are some attorneys that will try to get their hopes up and tell them, oh, yeah, we're going to beat this and do this and do this, and then they don't. I try to manage expectations. I don't want surprises. And I'm not going to promise somebody anything that I can't guarantee. And obviously I cannot guarantee whether you're going to be found guilty or not guilty. And I tell them that, and I'll tell them the strengths and weaknesses of the case and how I see the case. And if I think, yeah, I think you got a pretty good chance of winning doing this, I will tell them that. But at the same time, if I think they're most likely going to lose, I'm going to tell them that too. I don't want to sugarcoat anything with, with them because, you know, obviously it's their freedom on the line and I feel like they need to know what they're facing and what their chances are.

E (44:44)

I'm curious. You know, going to law school and stuff, they always say, doesn't really prepare you for what the actual work is. Like. What would you say to people in law school to tell them what the actual work is like?

D (44:55)

I would tell people in law school now that. And I think they're doing, doing A little bit better job in law school with clinics and stuff. I would say if you really want to practice law, sign up for every clinic you can, whether it's, you know, criminal defense clinic or something like that. Because I didn't do that when I was in law school. Now, granted, I kind of had an idea from following my dad around and stuff, but, but yeah, law school is more of an intellectual exercise and you do not get a lot of practical experience just from those classes. So I think it's important. And again, I think from what I've seen, I think law schools do do a little bit better job now of, give some of that practical experience. But, but I think you need to either get involved in those clinics or do an internship at a law firm or prosecutor's office or somewhere and, and, and get practical experience. Because you literally could go to law school and do nothing but go to the classes, read the cases and pass a bar and hang a shingle out, but you're not going to know what you're doing, and it's, you're going to be doing a disservice to yourself and to your clients.

C (45:54)

One question I wanted to ask you about was, you know, you kind of went from different defense prosecution back to defense.

D (45:59)

Correct.

C (45:59)

So I guess did that switch help you as a defense attorney where you can understand where the prosecution's coming from and are able to anticipate some of that?

D (46:09)

100%. I would say the best experience I got for being a defense attorney was being a prosecutor because it's so much easier to recognize the weaknesses in the case when you're preparing for a case and thinking, how am I going to present this? How am I going to prove this? And then when you become a defense attorney after that, you recognize those weaknesses just like you did when you were a prosecutor and you can, you know, confront those weaknesses. So, yeah, 100%, I think. And again, a lot of people do that. They start out in prosecutor's offices and go to defense work. But yeah, being a prosecutor, having that burden of proof and having to think about, you know, what evidence you need to prove, what you need to prove, yeah, that helps immensely as a defense attorney.

C (46:53)

And then I'm curious, you know, what advice would you give to lawyers who are making that sort of switch?

D (46:58)

Well, you know, you just, you just got to realize you're, you're looking at the same types of things, but you're, you're coming at it from a, from a different side. That has been the, I would say, the biggest change when I was a prosecutor. Most of my cases, like I said, were usually drug related. And when you're dealing with drug cases, you're dealing with police. You don't have victims, so to speak. My case is now. Now I have a client every single case, and I'm dealing with people in every single case. As a prosecutor, I mean, sometimes, I mean, obviously you have cases where you have civilian victims, but a lot of times it's just you and sometimes the police and you're not having to deal with them or think about them. And so I think the biggest thing, and sometimes as a prosecutor, and I would fall victim to this too, you may not see the defendants as much as people as, as defendants. And I think I have learned a lot by coming back to the side to realize these are people, 99% of them are just people who, like us, who are dealing with issues, dealing with problems, and have found themselves in a situation that they've got to deal with. Now, of course, there are psychopaths and sociopaths out there, but 99% of the people that I deal with, I don't have of. It's not like I have any fear of being around them. They're just, they're just people trying to do better for themselves and, and trying to do better and, and trying to stay out of jail and, and stay on the right path. So that can be very rewarding. I actually ran into a guy I prosecuted pretty hard and he went to prison for, I think, eight years. And, and I've run into him a couple times since I left the prosecutor's office. And he's made it a point to come up to me and we talk and he's telling me how great he is. I saw him, he had a baby time I saw him, and I just ran into him a couple weeks ago and I, and I, to me, that's great. You know, this was a person who, you know, I was going after and, and trying to prosecute to the fullest extent of the law, but he seems to be doing good now and that a lot of people might find that hard to believe. A lot of the people I prosecuted might find that hard to believe. But I truly do want what's best for them and for everybody. And, and I think it's great that he's, he's doing good now.

C (49:14)

Yeah, that's a, that's a great outcome if someone can kind of, of be rehabilitated.

D (49:18)

Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. I think most, you know, people can be rehabilitated sometimes it just takes longer time with some than others. But. But yeah, I think that's the biggest thing is just recognizing we're all people, we're all human and we all make mistakes. Some people, you know, just pay more for those mistakes and, you know, and it's rewarding to be able to help them move through that.

A (49:42)

We want to thank Greg for coming on the show.

B (49:44)

We really appreciate it. Thanks so much for listening to the Murder Sheet. If you have a tip concerning one of the cases we cover, please email us@murdersheetmail.com if you have actionable information about an unsolved crime, please report it to the appropriate authorities.

A (50:07)

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B (50:31)

Special thanks to Kevin Tyler Greenlee, who composed the music for the Murder she sheet and who you can find on the web@kevintg.com if you're looking to talk.

A (50:42)

With other listeners about a case we've covered, you can join the Murder Sheet discussion group on Facebook. We mostly focus our time on research and reporting, so we're not on social media much. We do try to check our email account, but we ask for patience as we often receive a lot of messages. Thanks again for listening.

D (51:09)

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A (51:24)

Is that guy with the binoculars watching you?

D (51:26)

Us? Cut the camera. They see us. Only pay for what you need at libertymutual. Com Savings Very unwritten by Liberty Mutual Insurance Company affiliates. Excludes Massachusetts.