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Murder Sheet
A Conversation with “Killer Story” Author and Former 48 Hours Producer Claire St. Amant
00:55:05
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- [00:00]
Anya Cain
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- [02:46]
Claire Sanima
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- [03:17]
Kevin Greenlee
Content Warning this episode contains discussion of murder and violence we all know and.
- [03:22]
Anya Cain
Love shows like 48 Hours. There's something about the documentary news magazine television programs that are just perfect for true crime storytelling. So many of us became interested in true crime thanks to 48 Hours and its competitors. We often tune in to eagerly listen to tales of betrayal and mayhem and murder. But what exactly goes into snagging some of those stories?
- [03:45]
Kevin Greenlee
To find out, we read the nonfiction book Killer the Truth Behind True Crime Television. It's by former 48 Hours and 60 Minutes producer Claire Sanima. She's a seasoned journalist who spent years running down murderers, detectives, defense attorneys, and more, all in the hopes of grabbing that exclusive interview.
- [04:08]
Anya Cain
In this book, she takes you inside how exactly she worked on cases like Texas, Kaufman county murders, the murder of American Sniper Chris Kyle, and the Parkland High School mass shooting in Florida. She shows you exactly how she landed some of these incredible stories.
- [04:25]
Kevin Greenlee
Claire's book is amazing. You've got to read this one if you enjoy true crime, or if you love learning about the ins and outs of journalism, or even if you just love a good story. She truly gets into so many wild situations, from staring down possible hitmen to dealing with sabotage, from her rivals to getting falsely accused of a crime herself.
- [04:46]
Anya Cain
And I think this is a great read for advocates and those with family members who are missing or murdered. If you understand how the media works and how shows like 48 Hours are made, you can better understand how to get journalists to cover a case you care about. My name is Anya Cain.
- [05:01]
Kevin Greenlee
I'm a journalist and I'm Kevin Greenlee.
- [05:04]
Anya Cain
I'm an attorney and this is the murder Sheet.
- [05:07]
Kevin Greenlee
We're a true crime podcast focused on original reporting, interviews, and deep dives into murder cases. We're the Murder Sheet.
- [05:16]
Anya Cain
And this is a conversation with Killer Story Author and former 48 Hours producer, Claire Sanima.
- [05:31]
Sam
Sam.
- [06:09]
Interviewer
So, Claire, to start off, thank you so much for coming on the show. We really appreciate it.
- [06:13]
Sam
Yeah, thanks for having me.
- [06:15]
Interviewer
Can you just tell us a little bit about yourself and your book, Killer Story?
- [06:21]
Sam
So I was a producer for 48 hours on CBS for about a decade, and I covered every major murder story that happened in America. And that was really my job was to go into, you know, these towns, these courthouses, these police departments, and talk about these cases and get people to go on television.
- [06:45]
Interviewer
Absolutely. I feel like we all watch 48 hours. We all watch these sort of crime programs, and they're like such a part of people's lives, but we don't always know how they're put together. And I'm curious, could you tell us a bit about maybe what some common misconceptions are about how these come together or about the shows themselves?
- [07:04]
Sam
Sure. So the reason I wanted to write, you know, my memoir, Killer the Truth Behind True Crime Television, was so that people would know what actually goes into an hour of true crime tv. Because it's not like we film it in an hour, right. We will talk to people for four hours sometimes. That's not uncommon. And then we have, you know, maybe five or six interviews in a story. So we have all of that, plus we'll have trial footage. And we have to go in and make all sorts of decisions about how to tell the story, how to include, you know, as many angles as we can and really try to give the best version of this really complicated true crime story. I'm always surprised whenever the final episode comes out. I'm like, we could make an entirely different episode, not using any of the same pieces that we selected, and still tell the story accurately and entertainingly. And, you know, because there's just so much more that goes on than can ever make air. We just don't have the time. Even though we have, you know, 42 minutes of television is how much you get with an hour of TV once you account for commercials. So there's really just so much more that goes on than you than you'll ever see on tv. And that's what the book is about. It's. It's the story that no audience has ever seen before. And I take you behind the scenes and I show you how we got that exclusive interview, how we got access to the evidence. How, you know, we were able to put our story on the air before any other show. Because I talk a lot about Dateline in 2020 as well, because it's really a battle royale for all the major stories where we're all covering the same cases for the most part.
- [09:02]
Interviewer
Absolutely. I feel like everyone who watches these shows should absolutely read Killer Story just because I think it makes you appreciate so much more the work that journalists and producers do in putting forward these and the amount of. Of effort, trying to really capture all sides, being fair, really showing different perspectives, but also just like, it's fascinating to see some of the kind of competitiveness and the jostling and sometimes the sabotage that goes down. I mean, I love that people should absolutely read it. One thing I wanted to ask you about was just, you know, to start off with, and the book goes into this as well, but just kind of the trajectory of your journalism career, kind of reaching that place where you got hired at CBS and sort of what that looked like.
- [09:44]
Sam
Sure. So I started out in local journalism working for a chain of suburban newspapers in Dallas that was called People Newspapers. And, you know, I was just a general assignment reporter covering everything, school board, city council, cops and courts. And, you know, that's really where I fell in love with true crime journalism. I started looking at crimes that were happening in my community. I got interested in trends. I got interested in the weird crimes, you know, the unusual, the outliers. And I found that people were also very interested in crimes that were happening, you know, around them that involved people that they knew. And so I just sort of got into that lane of journalism pretty early on. And, you know, have. Have never left.
- [10:33]
Interviewer
You talk about the getting someone in a chair, which in TV speak is getting them on camera to do an interview with 48 Hours in your case. You know, what is the art of that? How. How do you do that? Because I think that was the part. I mean, we've gotten interviews on our show.
- [10:49]
Sam
Right.
- [10:49]
Interviewer
But, like, that was the part where I was the most stressed out reading this because it's, like, so awkward.
- [10:54]
Sam
Yes. It's such a big ask. Because you're not only saying, will you talk to me about this murder case, but will you talk to me on the record and on camera? And we're going to put it on national television, and it's going to go into millions of people's homes. And then, you know, if you know anything about 48 hours or any other kind of true crime shows, it's actually going to go all over the world because we have international licensing deals. You know, it's going to live on forever. So it's. It's no small thing to get someone to agree to do this. And so I, you know, started out doing this. I didn't have any background or training in tv, actually, you know, I just had started out in print. And so one of my favorite things to do when I worked in newspapers and magazines and online, I loved the man on the street interviews. And I know a lot of journalists don't like that, but I always thought, this is a challenge, and I want to go up to someone and see if I can get them to give me a quote for my story. And so that served me well as a TV producer because I wasn't afraid to strike up a conversation with. With somebody. And, you know, I learned that it was always a lot easier to ask them for that interview if we had some type of rapport, some type of friendship, you know, going on. So I tried not to just immediately go for, will you sit down for an interview with 48 Hours on CBS News, you know, and really put a lot of padding into that conversation. And sometimes, you know, I would just look at it as well. The first thing I'm going to do is introduce myself, try to get, you know, their full name, try to get their connection to the case, try to figure out, like, how can we just slow roll this thing? And, you know, maybe I can take them out to lunch, I can take them to get coffee. And the luxury that I had in working for the national media, I didn't have daily deadlines like I'd had my whole career before. So I was able to take my time with people. And if you've always worked in TV and if you've always worked for, you know, a news magazine show where you have all this time, they feel really stressed. Like, these longtime TV producers, they're like the most stressed people I've ever met in my life. But I found it actually very, very luxurious to have that much time. Like, I wouldn't need to get this person to go on camera for, like, a month. Like, I could just work on, you know, getting to know them and finding out what they had to offer the story and finding out what might motivate them to talk before I ever have to make, like, the actual, okay, deal or no deal, you know, will you go on camera with us? If I don't have to rush into that conversation, then I just feel like I have a lot better rate of success.
- [13:48]
Interviewer
Absolutely. It seems like a Wonderful job for a people person. I think how you come across in the book, definitely. And yeah, that kind of human to human thing. And I think I really, I appreciated the segment of the book where you talked about the Kaufman county case was what came up. And there were two prosecutors and one of their wives murdered and just approaching one of their families where you're kind of in this place where you're like, I don't want to interrupt them at this sensitive moment, but I have to job. How do you balance that when it's like those, the victim's families?
- [14:20]
Sam
Those are definitely the most difficult conversations that you have as a TV producer is trying to talk to the victim's families and to be sensitive to them and to not. I always just said, I don't want to add to your pain, because I knew that they were in an immense amount of pain and there was very little I could do to alleviate any of it. But I hoped at the very least I wouldn't add to it. And so I tried to just follow the golden rule and, you know, treat them how I'd want to be treated and know that if it's not me approaching them, it's going to be another journalist, another TV producer, and, you know, just recognize that I could do it as sensitively, as kindly, as respectfully, you know, as humanly possible. And so that was always my goal, was to just approach it very thoughtfully and to just recognize how difficult this was for. For everyone involved, most of all for them. And. And that was something I really took a lot of time in thinking about. And the Kauffman county case was actually one of my very first ones that I worked for 48 hours. And so it's, it's like in my brain in a way that other ones aren't, because it was all so new and it was very emotional. And I remember that trial just really feeling, you know, for the families that they had no warning. You know, no one was expecting, you know, these, these horrific murders to happen. And they were killed in their homes. You know, the, the district attorney and his wife. And Easter weekend, you know, it's just trauma upon trauma with that one. And so I, I wanted to be very sensitive and I was so grateful when the victim's family eventually came around and, you know, decided to do an interview with me. I think looking back on it, I still can't believe it happened because I was not forceful at all. I was not pushy at all. And as I went on, you know, in my career, I learned not only to be respectful and kind and thoughtful and sensitive. But also you have to at one point seal the deal like you have to, you have to close it. And it's either going to be a yes or a no, but you have to have that conversation. And in those early days, and I think in the book, you really see me, you know, grow and mature and learn as a journalist and I can look back and recognize, you know, a lot of my rookie mistakes and just kind of shake my head. And I'm so, you know, know, glad that I was able to honor that family and get them on camera and that they were, you know, pleased with how the show turned out and they're glad they participated. But yeah, I'm still just like, I, I can't believe I actually got him to talk because I, I barely asked him, you know, I would, all I basically did was apologize all over myself and give him my cell phone number and then just kind of wait, you know.
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- [20:26]
Interviewer
Yeah, that was a part of the book where I was like, that is so me. That was like the most relatable. Just like, here's my cell phone, like, if you, if you want to talk. And I was like, yeah, that's totally what I would do. And then immediately your bosses are like, you did what? Like, like, oh, yeah, yeah. No.
- [20:40]
Sam
It was like the absolute dumbest thing in their mind that I could have done because I left the ball completely in their court. I had no leverage. I didn't even have their contact information. I'd made no specific requests, no timeline, no deadline. Yeah, it was. It was a lot, a lot that I learned in that, for sure.
- [21:01]
Interviewer
I'd like to think that they saw that you weren't pushy and that you were being a nice person and that that may have influenced them to open up as opposed to if you came in with your elbows out and were pushy, I. But I think it did.
- [21:13]
Sam
I think it did. And in that story in particular, you know, the family ended up kind of dividing and some of them peeled off and spoke to Dateline, and Dateline was a lot more Forceful and a lot more experienced at this trial. And so they came in and really got their interviews right under my nose. And I didn't know that they were booking everybody right from underneath me. I would learn later and turn around as fair play. But at that time, they really had my number. But the side of the family that decided to speak with me, you know, it was after other members had spoken with Dateline, and they were like, we want something different. We want to talk to a different show. And lo and behold, they hadn't lost my card, and, you know, they called me. So that. That one was a. That was a special one, for sure.
- [22:05]
Interviewer
Absolutely. You know, when it comes to other types of people to talk to, I mean, obviously law enforcement, prosecutors, defense attorneys, witnesses, there's all kinds. But it seems like to me, and I'm just curious about your experience, this is something we've experienced just being on the podcast. Seems like oftentimes defense attorneys are the most likely, when it comes to the lawyers, to want to talk. And prosecutors tend to be maybe skeptical of the media, if not just not willing to talk to them.
- [22:36]
Sam
Yeah, I would have that a lot. You know, as 48 hours, we were pretty pro law enforcement for the most part. And so I think that gave us something of an edge. A lot of times with the prosecutors and with the. The police departments that they saw it as well. This is a show about a murder, a trial, and a conviction. Like, 95% of the time that that is what our show's about. And so I think they felt more comfortable in that setting. Actually had, you know, a pretty good number of defense attorneys that I could never get to talk that they just didn't feel like it would bring any value to their case. A lot of times they would be like public defenders, and, you know, they would have just so much on their plate. And I think that they felt like they were thinking, worst case scenario, I'm going to say something that harms my client. You know, worst case scenario, I'm going to do something that ends up somehow jeopardizing, you know, the case. I think they were very cautious a lot of times. But I did get some, you know, pretty great defendants in the chair, the actual, you know, suspects. That was always. That's kind of the gold standard with a crime show. If. If you're talking about, you know, this murder case and there's any kind of doubt, you know, who might have committed it, if you can get the actual killer, you know, suspected killer to talk and plead their innocence, and you get to you know, have this interrogation play out on camera and have the correspondent poke holes in their story. That's. That's TV gold right there.
- [24:15]
Interviewer
I'm curious, out of those killers, who was the most memorable interview for you that just lingers with you today? You describe a couple in the book.
- [24:22]
Sam
Yeah, so I would probably go with Eric Williams, who was the Kaufman County Killer. So this interview never aired. He did not do an interview on camera, but I interviewed him at the Rockwall County Jail. That's where he was being held for his. His trial and sentencing. And it was just one of those memories that's just like, burned into my brain because I was the only person there. There were no cameras, there was no recording devices. It was a media visitor. So I was able to go in there with my notepad and my pen and that was it. And they knew I was media, but it wasn't a recorded interview. He had just agreed to meet with me. And so it was a night where no other visitors were allowed. So I go into that visiting room, and all the other visitor bays are dark, and there's just a single light on my stool that is, you know, bolted to the ground. And then I'm facing this. This Plexiglas, you know, that he's being brought into on the other side. And even though there's this. This thin separation between us, it felt way too close for comfort. And he was just staring right into my eyes, and it was just the two of us and. And I felt completely terrified to be having that conversation with him, knowing that he had killed three people in cold blood and had shown no remorse for it, you know, had in fact celebrated these murders with like a steak dinner. And, you know, was just. He had a hit list. He was trying to keep going. Like he was completely gone. You know, in terms of the psychopathic, like, serial killer, there was not any light left. And I could see that in his eyes. And you know, I've interviewed a lot of killers since then, but you never forget your first. And Eric Williams was my first. And he just had this dark, formless gaze. And whenever I looked into his eyes, I just saw nothing but blackness. And I would. I would recognize that look on other killers faces, and it always just startled me. And it was also so interesting because whenever I would look at pictures of them from before the murder, their eyes looked different. And it's. It's something that I can't explain, and I wouldn't, you know, believe it if I hadn't witnessed it myself. But I do just think that There's a darkness that takes over when you make that decision to kill people and, you know, not look back. It wasn't a heat of passion thing. This was. This was premeditated.
- [27:20]
Interviewer
Yeah, this guy was like. I mean, the grievance collectors freak me out, where it's like, you know, this kind of, you know, grievance that is a big deal in someone's life, but. But certainly, like, killing somebody, like.
- [27:31]
Sam
Oh, yeah, yeah, I'm with you.
- [27:34]
Interviewer
The.
- [27:34]
Sam
The people who have that revenge, who won't let things go, who really harbor these grudges. Yeah, those are. Those are the scary ones. And that's something that I tell people. You know, try to let the light into your life. Let things go. Don't hold on, because you're really, you know, you're holding on to these past slights, to these grievances, and it really does just weigh you down, you know, and it doesn't actually help the situation. And I've seen it go so terribly wrong that, you know, that's. That's one of my just go to pieces of advice, like, let things go. Don't. Don't hold a grudge. It never ends well.
- [28:16]
Interviewer
I want to talk more about the sort of scrum and the kind of, like, the competition that can happen when, you know, you have 48 hours at a trial, but then you have competitors like Dateline. It seemed like you had a lot of success in many of these trials, keeping them at bay and, in fact, beating them. And so what was the secret to your success with that?
- [28:37]
Sam
So I tried to use the fact that I was a native Texan and most of my stories took place in Texas. I used that to my advantage quite successfully, especially towards the end of my career, once I realized, oh, this is my strength, this is my superpower. I'm here all the time. I'm not just flying in and out. So I tried to find cases that, you know, were early, that were kind of in their infancy in the criminal justice system. And I tried to get involved with, you know, the attorneys, the police officers, let them know I'm working this story. I want to, you know, I want to be on your contact list. I want you to know that you can call me anytime and we'll talk about this case. And you're not going to hear about on the 5 o' clock news, because I'm not, you know, working on trying to turn this around fast, like I'm in for the long haul. And that ended up being something that a lot of people appreciated, you know, in the stories and knowing that I was always available if you wanted to grab coffee or lunch or just talk through something new in the case and that it was like a, you know, yes, you're talking to a member of the media, but I wasn't working on these, you know, incremental stories like a lot of other journalists are. And most of the time, you know, the stories that we cover for the national news for 48 hours, Dateline in 2020, they're kind of like once in a lifetime crime cases. For a lot of these detectives and attorneys, all their cases aren't like this. So their most common interactions with the journalist would be someone doing a very quick story. And so I realized I had to counter those perceptions and show them that even though I was a journalist, I wasn't going to turn around and, you know, spoil their case with a story that was going to come out, you know, before they, they realized it. So that was something I always tried to, you know, put front and center is, you know, we're working on this for an hour long episode that's going to come out on Saturday nights. And you know, something that was really a challenge is that dateline in 2020 come out on Friday night and we come out on Saturday so they could beat us by a day and we had to be a whole week ahead to beat them. And so that was something that was really frustrating. And it happened, you know, multiple times where they would air their episode on Friday and then ours would come out on Saturday. And it's just like people are like, why are they all covering the same story? You know, and they don't understand that we are fighting tooth and nail for access, for interviews, you know, and we both wanted to be the one to break the story. And you know, we don't know when they're airing until they run their promos. Like we, there's, there's rumors that there's like moles for the different shows, you know, that there's people giving intel. And I wouldn't doubt it, especially there's a lot of people who work at ABC 2020 now who used to work at 48 hours on CBS. So there's some interesting parallels there. And that was usually the one that was scooping us. So you have to wonder about, about all those things. But these are the war games that go on in true crime television that, you know, until my book came out, only people in the industry knew about.
- [32:06]
Interviewer
Yeah, it feels very Cold war espionage sort of stuff, which is, which makes it a very interesting read too because I don't think people realize that. I think we, as TV consumers, or at least me speaking for myself, you kind of are just like now a 48 Hours episode. I will watch this and learn about a case I'm not thinking about. Like, wow, these producers were going all out to get, you know, the family and the defendant. And so it's, it's, it's, it makes you appreciate it more, the work that goes into it, but also the battles that happen to make it happen.
- [32:39]
Sam
Well, I appreciate that. I, I tell people, I don't think you'll watch true crime television the same way again after you read this book, because it, it won't be the same experience for you.
- [32:48]
Interviewer
And I think it's good for people to educate themselves, especially, you know, people who are in law enforcement, lawyers, people like that, who, you know, if they ever find themselves in this situation, you know, figure out how to, how to best kind of, you know, like, I guess navigate the whole, the whole atmosphere. I mean, I thought it was really funny you mentioned the kind of, the kind of tactics that producers will use to manipulate people into talking to them sometimes. Like, yeah, I'll get fired if you don't talk to me. That was my favorite. Yep, everyone's talking to me but you. And just kind of these white lies to kind of guide.
- [33:22]
Sam
Oh, yeah.
- [33:23]
Interviewer
What? Like, is that, Is that pretty common?
- [33:26]
Sam
It is extremely common. And a lot of times it's the only way, you know, if things go south, if someone's not talking and you realize you're gonna lose them, then that's sort of. Whenever you pull out, you know, those kinds of lines, it's not something you lead with, at least, certainly not me, but I've used all of them, you know, in, in desperate times, desperate measures. You know, I've, I've tried everything I possibly could. Generally speaking, it's for the defendant, for the suspect, those types of manipulative efforts, because they're the ones that, you know, you want the most on your show and no one else can speak, really, to what they're going to say. And, and I feel like these are people who've done some really difficult, you know, terrible things. Right. And so the idea that I would sort of wear kick gloves with them. Why? Why? You know, these are a lot of times convicted murderers that I'm trying to get to go on tv. So all bets are off.
- [34:37]
Interviewer
Yeah. If you want to be a little more aggressive with them versus what we talked about with the victim's family, where they're.
- [34:42]
Sam
Right, right. I Certainly never told victim's family that I would get fired if they didn't talk to me. You know, that. That's not. That's not how I played it at all. But, yeah, I would. I would say that to the killer, sure. Yeah.
- [34:53]
Interviewer
Yeah. You amend your approach based on the context.
- [34:56]
Sam
Yes.
- [34:58]
Interviewer
I'm curious which case that you covered, and it could be one that you talked about in the book or a different one, was the biggest media circus when it came to, you know, being at that trial and just being that, like, center of chaos, I guess.
- [35:11]
Sam
So the biggest media circus. I was gonna say the biggest media attention was the Alec Murdaugh case in South Carolina, but I quit before it went on trial. So I was just there for the most insane summer of my life, whenever, you know, he was getting charged with the murder of his wife and child. And there was just, like, a new piece of bombshell evidence, like, every day for a week. It felt like I just remember being in that hotel in South Carolina and just seeing my phone light up and just being like, oh, gosh, what now? You know, and everybody was there. Not just all the local stations, all the national stations, but Netflix, hbo, Hulu, they were filming, and they've all, like, come out with their own Murdoch documentaries now. And so that was the first time that I had ever dealt with not just journalists, but with filmmakers jockeying for these interviews. And it was. It was wild. I mean, that was absolutely the most media attention I had ever seen on a single case. Gosh, I'm.
- [36:25]
Interviewer
I'm curious, you know, and you sort of break this down in the book, but I just, you know, for our listeners, you know, what are the types of cases that tend to be the, you know, as far as true crime television outlets, like 48 Hours, what are the ones that are the. Considered typically the best fit?
- [36:42]
Sam
Well, Anya, I bet you won't be surprised to hear that it's. It's the spousal murder. We call it, like, garden variety spousal murder. We'll just be like, it's another, you know, husband jealous, there's an affair, kills his wife for the insurance policy. Like, that's sort of the classic. And you can switch husband for wife, but usually someone's cheating, someone finds out there's a lot of money involved, and they don't want to get a divorce because they don't want to split assets 50, 50. So, you know, they'll either do the deed themselves or they'll try to hire a hitman. That's. That's always interesting. I think something that stands out from my time in true crime television is when people, regular people, think that they want to hire a hitman. They go to the least reputable person in their social circle, and they ask them, will you kill my wife? Will you kill my husband? And it's so unbelievable that they think, well, this person has a tattoo. This person works in a bar. This person. I mean, it's like the minor thing. They're like, oh, they were in the military. They'll probably be okay with murdering someone. I'm like, what? Like, just because they carried a gun at one point in time, you think that they are an assassin Now? So usually these people, you know, who've gotten a bad rap from their friends, who think that they're. They're possible, you know, hitman, they usually go to the. The police. And so that makes for a pretty good 48 Hours episode. So they'll go to the police. We'll have the video of them going into the police station. They'll be like, so I had a really disturbing conversation with my neighbor, and they asked me to kill, you know, their wife. And the police usually don't believe it. It's really interesting. And then they'll set up a wire. Sometimes they'll have them call from the police station, and they'll be, you know, recording the call and, like, be on speakerphone. And they'll get the person to be like, yeah, if you could, you know, just make it look like an accident, make it look like a car wreck, you know, whatever. And then it's like, all right, we're off to the races with this investigation. So those are pretty common. I would usually say that, yeah. There's usually a cheating spouse and a life insurance policy that comes into play at some point.
- [39:05]
Interviewer
I'm curious, why do you think those are so popular? I imagine that's stems from audience interest and not just 48 hours being like, well, this is what we're gonna do, I think. I mean, yeah, seems to be a lot of people interested in that. Why do you think we love. Or maybe love's the wrong word. Why are we intrigued by those stories?
- [39:22]
Sam
I think it's the idea that it. It doesn't look like anything's wrong in that world. They always say, like, they had the picture perfect marriage, you know, that sort of thing. Right. Please don't let anyone ever say that about me or my family, because I know what's around the corner. Right. Disaster. So usually I think we get some type of perverse satisfaction from seeing the perfect couple. You know, unmasked, to actually be just as messed up as everybody else and worse. Right. And actually they're not happy. Actually, all those Instagram posts are, you know, a total facade. And, you know, they're overcompensating for the fact that they're cheating on each other or they're deeply in debt. And, you know, all these pictures that they posted on vacation, they did that on credit cards, you know, and now suddenly the bills are due and look out, right? So I think there's a lot of that. You know, we talk about what keeps people through the commercial breaks because this is, you know, linear television. You can now stream 48 hours, but at least that I'm aware of. They don't do, like, serialized cases, so they wouldn't do three, four, five, six episodes on one case. Right. So they expect you to sit on your couch for the full hour through all the commercial breaks. And so they try to keep, you know, the element of surprise, suspense. You know, they don't want it to be, well, these are some really terrible people who have criminal records who, like, shoot and kill people every day. And so now they're taking out their gun and they're doing a drive by. You're like, yeah, I kind of expected that, you know, but instead you've got, you know, the guy who's the president of the bank, right, and his wife who's a doctor. And they, you know, live in this, like, beautiful house with a white picket fence and all that kind of stuff, and you don't expect one of them to. To be plotting murder. So that's really where you're like, huh, how's this going to turn out? I better stick around.
- [41:30]
Interviewer
Yeah, it appeals to our sense of intrigue, I think. And it's like, as you said, I mean, I have a thing I say on the show, like, if you were just watching or listening to podcasts, frankly, listening to podcasts, watching tv, you would think the most, like, at risk person in the country was like, a suburban white mom who had, oh, yeah, perfect life. And like. No, but you would think that because those are the cases. And one thing I thought was really interesting in the book, Claire, was that, you know, you talked about how there were a number of times where you were, you know, you would push 48 hours and CBS in general to go against that grain and take on a story that didn't quite fit that mold but still was worth telling. Can you tell us a little bit about those experiences?
- [42:13]
Sam
It's always challenging when you're pushing up against the status quo. And it was difficult to get them to want to do a story that would not fit in the classic formula. And so a lot of times, like, I would be really interested in these unsolved cases, in cases where, you know, justice is still pending and we don't know the outcome. We haven't had a trial. Maybe there hasn't even been an arrest, but there was definitely a murder. And that, you know, was a very difficult proposition for an hour of television for a lot of different reasons. But, you know, it's part of what led me into podcasts because I wanted to tell these longer, more complicated stories where it's not black and white, it's gray. And, you know, that's really where I found a lot of fulfillment, you know, with journalistic storytelling on Final Days on Earth, my first podcast, and now my spinoff, Justice Pending, where in both instances, you know, I talk about these unresolved deaths where people are still wondering, you know, will justice ever be served? And so those are really the ones that, you know, I'm interested in talking about now.
- [43:24]
Interviewer
Absolutely. And, yeah, you're pushed to kind of COVID the case of Samuel Little, the, I think, most prolific serial killer. His victims didn't have a picture perfect life. They were often homeless, addicted to drugs, mostly women of color, I believe. And, yes, you pushing to get that. I mean, that was an incredible piece for 60 minutes, too, but it definitely did not fit the typical mold.
- [43:46]
Sam
Oh, my gosh. Yeah, I almost got fired over that story.
- [43:49]
Interviewer
Like, they.
- [43:50]
Sam
They did not want it in a. In a bad way, Anya. They. They were like, please stop pitching this. You need to, like, go away. And I just knew that if I didn't get this story on cbs, that it was going to be on NBC or abc. And I just couldn't live with myself if I didn't try everything to get the story out there. And so, yeah, I ended up taking it to 60 Minutes, which was a show I did not work for. You know, I worked for 48 hours. And the politics at CBS, 60 Minutes is completely separate from all the other programs that they're building. They. They really believe the ethos, that they are different, they are better. And, you know, you don't belong here, even if you work at CBS. Like, we are 60, and we are completely our own animal. So it was quite a surprise to me to end up working with them for that story. And then I would go on to do, you know, a handful of other stories with them through the years. But, yeah, 60 Minutes finally, you know, was the Home for the Samuel Little story. And we got it in, kind of threw a Trojan horse by doing a profile of the Texas Ranger who got Samuel Little to confess. And so 60 Minutes profile is kind of a classic story. You know, they. They did a profile on Judge Judy before Judge Judy ever had a show. And so they, they do tons of profiles. It's like almost, you know, every time there's an episode of 60 Minutes, there's usually three pieces that are, you know, compose the hour, and one of them oftentimes is a profile. So by rearranging my pitch and making it a profile about this law enforcement individual, that was how, you know, I was finally able to get over all the obstacles in telling, yeah, the Samuel Little story because, yeah, these women were on the fringes of society. They were not, in a lot of ways relatable to the typical audience member for 60 Minutes. And so they felt like, you know, we had to tell it in a. In the 60 way to get people to. To listen and pay attention, and they really did. And it was so gratifying to be able to put out descriptions of these women who had never been identified before. We put out five different ones, and I know at least one of them was identified after the show, which was really exciting. I don't know how it's gone since then, if they've been able to identify other ones, but it's. It really made a difference, you know, in. In that case. And to be able to put a name to a Jane Doe, you know, is no small thing in law enforcement.
- [46:35]
Interviewer
Absolutely. Yeah. The impact of that was just incredible. And, you know, I'm, I'm curious. Like, we often hear about, like, missing White Woman syndrome or, you know, things that kind of pervade mainstream media as far as what cases get covered.
- [46:48]
Sam
What.
- [46:49]
Interviewer
And we talked a bit about how the classic spouse kills spouse thing tends to be the mold. And, and obviously, those can definitely have a place, I think, because they can speak to things like domestic violence or, you know, like, how pervasive that can be even in picture perfect marriages. But I guess, like, what are your thoughts on how the audience or. Or how, you know, true crime in general, whether it's something huge, like 48 hours, or, you know, something small like a podcast, can. Can work to change some of that, as you did within the system, and just kind of encourage other kinds of cases, cases involving marginalized people to be put to the forefront.
- [47:25]
Sam
I think we have a responsibility to tell all kinds of stories and to look at the types of stories that we're telling and think, are there other ways that we could be approaching this topic that is more inclusive? And I think that a lot of times, you know, we reflect the kinds of stories that we cover. And so if everyone working there is the same race and gender and socioeconomic status, then there's just sort of that natural bias where you go towards those types of stories and you're more inclined to be interested in those stories. And we have to recognize that that exists and do whatever we can to fight against that and to be aware that there are so many cases that are off the radar that are not getting the national media coverage. They're not all Gabby Petitos. Right. And they're still important, and they still deserve to have their day in court eventually. And sometimes the best we can do in the interim is the court of public opinion. The idea that media, a lot of times can lead to actual developments, you know, in the case that by bringing it under a bigger spotlight, more people will learn about this case, maybe a witness will come forward, maybe, you know, a nonprofit will provide funding for testing. I mean, there's so many different possible ways to positively impact these cold cases that a lot of times people think like, well, you're not a. You're not a detective. You're not a cop. You can't arrest anyone. You can't put anyone on trial. Like, what do you even. How are you even helping? And I really believe that, you know, sunlight is the best disinfectant. And as a journalist, you know, I have a microphone, and that's a powerful thing. And being able to tell these stories to a wider audience and following that, you know, wherever it takes me, and sometimes those connections are, you know, quite unexpected, and you can't really predict it. But I think as long as people are talking about, you know, these missing women, these, you know, murdered children, whatever it might be, then there's a chance that, you know, they'll get justice, that they. Their case will be solved, that their body will be found. You know, all of these things that. That you. You hope for in some type of resolution, you know, in. In a criminal case that many times, the starting point for all of that is media attention.
- [50:08]
Interviewer
Well, you just answered two questions in one, because I was going to ask you. Media attention actually held cases, so. Perfect.
- [50:15]
Sam
Yeah, I really believe that. I don't, you know, I don't subscribe to the sort of vulture journalism. I don't chase ambulances. You know, I'm really looking at the stories where there's some central figure saying justice has not been served and you don't know the full story. And that's where I think the media serves a great public service and that we can actually be the voice of the people and tell you something you didn't know about your community and hopefully get, you know, connect those resources that can, that can actually make a difference.
- [50:53]
Interviewer
I'm curious, you know, I feel like it's, it's definitely the case, and we've, we've seen this, that not every case is likely to receive national gavel to gavel media coverage. But, you know, sometimes you don't need that to make a difference. A local journalist can make a difference, regional whatnot. What would your advice be to family members with cases oftentimes unsolved? I would say where they're looking to get more media attention because they feel like that could help get them, like how do they go about getting that?
- [51:25]
Sam
So, I mean, the biggest piece of advice I give people is if you have the resources and you can raise the money, put out a billboard. It is the loudest megaphone. If you don't personally know a journalist, if you don't have a way to, you know, get someone invested, interested in your case, put up a billboard. Because especially in small towns, the local media, they will see that billboard and they will be in their editorial meeting trying to come up with five stories for that day. And someone will say, you know, I heard there's a new billboard about an unsolved crime and there's a photo and there's a phone number and there's a reward in, in the next two hours we could have a story about it. And for a lot of journalists, serving that up on a platter makes them much more likely to do this story versus, you know, you have the victim's family trying to send emails, they're trying to phone call, you know, people, cold call people and tell them about their case. And it's just kind of a lot to explain all at once. And a lot of times they don't have, like whenever you might catch that journalist, they might not have, you know, the bandwidth to take a pitch at that moment. It might get lost in their spam folder. There's so many things that can happen, but I've seen a lot of really good coverage that comes from billboards. If that's really what you're trying to get is media attention, I say put up a billboard.
- [52:53]
Interviewer
Absolutely. No, that, that makes sense. It's hard to ignore a big billboard in your town.
- [52:58]
Sam
Yeah. And then once you get the local news covering It. Guess who's probably going to cover it next? The newspaper. And then when the newspaper covers it, maybe. Maybe a monthly magazine will pick it up. And then, you know, you kind of have this momentum that you can use, and maybe a podcaster will hear about it, you know, and all that stuff really plays off of each other. And for the most part, media, you know, we're getting our story ideas from sources from, you know, press offices, from, you know, public meetings, and we're getting it from other media. Like, that is something that we all do. We consume so much of our own medicine. So we are out there, you know, reading newspapers, watching tv, listening to podcasts, tracking social media, and we're all trying to decide what, you know, how could we do a better version of this story? How could we add to this conversation? What could we get that nobody else could? And if you already have the story out, you know, you're. You're halfway there to. To getting your next one.
- [53:59]
Interviewer
Yeah. What you said about momentum is so true, because then I've. I've seen things happen where the story goes viral, and then everyone saying, why don't we have something on this? And then it just keeps. It keeps going.
- [54:12]
Sam
Yeah, it does.
- [54:14]
Interviewer
I'm curious, you know, in terms of. I know at one point in the book, you talk a bit about sensitive coverage of crime versus sensational coverage of crime, and, you know, for you, what's the difference? And how can people who maybe are creators themselves lean into more of the sensitive side of things and maybe a little bit away from needless sensationalism? Everyone wants their story to be interesting and even entertaining, but I take sensational to mean only caring about that at the expense of maybe the facts or any sensitivity.
- [54:48]
Sam
I would agree with that. And I think that as a journalist, you always want to be adding to the conversation, not just regurgitating what's already out there. And so that's really what I think separates, you know, that sort of sensationalism where it's like we're just going to shout from a louder megaphone everything that everyone's already saying, and we're going to act outraged or we're going to, you know, give our reaction to it. But the idea that you could say, you know, here's a piece of the puzzle I put together, that I realized that hasn't been reported before, or, here's a new voice. Here's someone else talking, you know, for the first time, and they, you know, were an eyewitness, or they, you know, knew the victim, or they knew. Knew the suspect. And they're offering this perspective that is missing from the current conversation. And I think that that really does move the story forward.
- [55:39]
Interviewer
Absolutely. So I have a question for you that's more of a career advice thing thing, because I imagine some people, maybe younger people, people in college might be listening who are like, I want Claire's career. That sounds awesome. You know, how do people do this, what you did, in this sort of weird and shifting media environment now, you.
- [55:57]
Sam
Know, you do it one story at a time. That's really the way to build a lasting career, is to chase stories and not jobs. I did not expect to work in television. I, you know, I went to the Peace Corps when I graduated from college. I didn't even own a TV in college. If you had told me that I would spend most of my career working in television, I would have just laughed you right out of the building. But I wanted to tell great stories. And, you know, I started out in newspapers and I started covering crime. And you know, that led to me covering my first trial, which led to, you know, a big story about this verdict. And then, you know, that led to a magazine piece and that led to a job offer from a startup website. And, you know, everything just kind of built on itself. And it was all based on the stories that I was covering and, you know, the angles that I had, the interviews, the exclusivity, you know, that I was cultivating with these sources who were telling me things that they'd never told anyone before and providing documentation and, you know, doing the kind of investigative legwork that really thanks for unique, impactful storytelling is what, you know, led to all these unbelievable opportunities in, in my career that I never, I never would have imagined for myself. And it's, it's very interesting because I didn't see, once I got to television, I thought, well, I'm in tv. I'm just going to work here forever. You know, this is, this is amazing. I work for the national media, but, you know, then podcasts started intriguing me. Just the idea that I could tell these longer, you know, audio only stories where it could be just about, you know, the raw storytelling and I didn't have to, you know, worry about all the, all the TV stuff. And, you know, that led to me writing a book, right? And then, you know, here I am now actually again working in television, developing a series right now on serial killers that I hope to come out at the end of 2025 or early 2026. But, you know, it's, it's always a mystery to me what's around the corner. But I know that if I'm following good stories and I'm, you know, finding ways to tell them that haven't been told before that, yeah, I'll have a very interesting career for a long time.
- [58:27]
Interviewer
Well said. Absolutely. Claire, this has been delightful. Is there anything I didn't ask you about, about Killer Story or your time at CBS or just anything else, any of these cases that you wanted to mention?
- [58:38]
Sam
I would just say that Killer Story is available at booksellers nationwide. You can get the hard copy, you can get the Kindle version, and I even read the audiobook. So I narrated that so you can, you can hear me tell my own stories in my own voice. And yeah, I'm doing a book tour now and I'm going mostly around Texas, but I, I have some events in other states, too. So, you know, I'd love to, to hear from people who are reading the book and to see them, you know, added events. And it's definitely an exciting time and I'm enjoying, you know, getting to engage with audiences about Killer Story and about their, you know, experiences with true crime television and answering their questions.
- [59:22]
Interviewer
People should absolutely read Killer Story. I really enjoyed it, just getting to see how it's all made, but there's just this, this tension and this sort of suspense when it comes to getting these stories made. And I just think people who enjoy true crime will really enjoy this. So I would strongly recommend it.
- [59:38]
Sam
Well, thank you so much, Anya, for having me on. I'm a big fan of your show and please tell Kevin I said hello. So it's, it's always great to, to talk to another podcaster and yeah, just, I, I look forward to reading your book when it comes out this summer and maybe you can come on my show and talk about it.
- [59:55]
Interviewer
We would love that. Thank you so much, Claire.
- [59:57]
Sam
Of course.
- [59:59]
Anya Cain
Thank you so much to Claire for taking the time to speak with us. Check out her book. We'll include a link in our show notes.
- [60:07]
Kevin Greenlee
Thanks so much for listening to the Murder Sheet. If you have a tip concerning one of the cases we cover, please email us@murdersheetmail.com if you have actionable information about an unsolved crime, please report it to the appropriate authorities.
- [60:27]
Anya Cain
If you're interested in joining our Patreon, that's available at www.patreon.com murdersheet. If you want to tip us a bit of money for records requests, you can do so at www. Buymeacoffee.com/murder sheet. We very much appreciate any support.
- [60:51]
Kevin Greenlee
Special thanks to Kevin Tyler Greenlee, who composed the music for the Murder Sheet and who you can find on the web@kevintg.com if you're looking to talk with.
- [61:02]
Anya Cain
Other listeners about a case we've covered, you can join the Murder Sheet discussion group on Facebook. We mostly focus our time on research and reporting, so we're not on social media much.
- [61:14]
Interviewer
We do try to check our email.
- [61:16]
Anya Cain
Account, but we ask for patience as we often receive a lot of messages. Thanks again for listening.