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Murder Sheet
A Conversation with Peter Van Sant on "Trained to Kill," 48 Hours, and a Career Covering Murder
00:42:21
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- [00:00]
Anya Cain
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Kevin Greenlee
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- [00:24]
Anya Cain
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- [00:35]
Kevin Greenlee
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- [00:55]
Anya Cain
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- [01:02]
Kevin Greenlee
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- [01:24]
Anya Cain
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- [01:40]
Kevin Greenlee
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- [02:30]
Anya Cain
This episode contains discussion of violence and murder.
- [02:34]
Kevin Greenlee
A dog trainer to the stars, an Heiress, ex wife, a bodyguard boyfriend, Howling canines, mysterious bloodstains, stalking threats, frame ups, murder. The story of the disappearance of Mark Stover is filled with twists and turns. Stover was known as the Dog Whisperer of the Pacific Northwest and boasted clients like famous rockers and Hollywood stars. Then, in 2009, he vanished.
- [03:06]
Anya Cain
We were recently fortunate enough to speak with 48 Hours correspondent Peter Van Zant about this case, which he covers on his new podcast, Train to Kill. The first episodes of that program are out now on all podcast platforms, and it is dropping new episodes until May 9th.
- [03:24]
Kevin Greenlee
Of course. 48 Hours is a legendary documentary news magazine from CBS that does a lot of true crime stories, and Peter Van Sant has covered so many of those. He's worked there since 1998 and has won many awards in broadcast journalism. His previous podcast with 48 hours blood is thicker than water, hit number one on the Apple podcast charts.
- [03:45]
Anya Cain
For Peter Van Zant, the story of Stilver's disappearance is quite personal, as it occurred in the bucolic corner of the Pacific Northwest where he spent so much time. Over the years, he has reported on this case, getting so many exclusive interviews, and sometimes he even found himself ahead of police investigators.
- [04:04]
Kevin Greenlee
Listen as we talk to Peter Van Sant about this fascinating story and his new podcast, as well as Murder, Mayhem and the Murder. Hello, boys. My name is Anya Cain. I'm a journalist.
- [04:15]
Anya Cain
And I'm Kevin Greenlee. I'm an attorney.
- [04:17]
Kevin Greenlee
And this is the Murder Sheet.
- [04:19]
Anya Cain
We're a true crime podcast focused on original reporting, interviews, and deep dives into murder cases. We're the Murder Sheet.
- [04:27]
Kevin Greenlee
And this is a conversation with Peter Van Sant on train to kill, 48 hours and a career covering Murder It. All right, so I guess to get started, Peter, can you just tell the listeners a bit about your career, your trajectory, how you came to work at 48 hours?
- [05:31]
Peter Van Sant
Well, my career with CBS News really begins when I was about 6 years old growing up in Seattle. We watched Walter Cronkite every night. And that's the way it is. CBS News. I used to imitate him as a kid. I, I dreamed of working at CBS News when I was in school. I was always fascinated in writing and journalism. I went to Washington State University, where Edward R. Murrow attended, who was a CBS News legend. So I always wanted to work there. I started my first job after university. I worked in radio and I did an internship at a radio station in Washington state. But my first job out of Washington State University was in mighty Twin falls, Idaho, the 1 168th size market in the country. That was a station that was affiliated with all three networks. I worked there for four months. Ran away screaming. But I learned so much because I had to shoot and anchor and write and all of that. I then worked as a tour boat skipper at Seattle Harbor Tours. And that was a job that took me through university and I loved that. So I went back and worked as my tour guide skipper. I did a lot of broadcasting, but it was about what was in Elliot Bay there. And we took out tours and charters. I took out the Governor's Conference one time. It was fantastic. It was the greatest job ever. And then someone I'd worked with in Idaho got a job in Cedar Rapids, Iowa and she told them about me. I got hired there. I worked in Cedar Rapids and Dubuque, Iowa for about nine months. Then I went to Omaha, Nebraska, KETV and worked there for about 13 months. And then a news director in Phoenix called our competition in Omaha and said, who do you want out of the market? And lucky for me, they said Peter Van Sant. And I end up working at Cool TV in Phoenix for four years where I anchored and reported my weekend news show. My best book was a 42 share, which I still love to tell people. It's hard to believe, but it was great. And then from there I got a job at WFAA in Dallas. At that time, I believe the finest local news operation in America. Scott Pelley from CBS News was a colleague there. We and and others who went on to. To other networks. I was there only for about 16 months and was recruited by CBS News. And I got my dream job and I've been here now for 41 years. Based in Atlanta for six years, in London for three covered stories all over the world. The first Gulf War, the collapse of the Soviet Union, famine in North Korea. I've been to 40 some odd countries working for CBS News. Came back and worked for the evening news and then some news shows that lived and died and then eventually got on to 48 hours. And I've been here for several decades and I love what I do.
- [08:22]
Anya Cain
I'm curious, I don't know if there is an average day at 48 hours, but what would an average or a typical day be like as you work on that program?
- [08:31]
Peter Van Sant
Well, I go back to the beginning of 48 Hours. They did a show called 48 Hours on Crack street, which was a sensation at the time where they shot the story in 48 hours. And so when they decided to do the series, I was a correspondent based in Atlanta and I Think it was the third show I got to work on that when we literally shot for 48 hours, you didn't sleep at all. And you would. You'd plunge into. Into a story and live that story, and. And there was a group of reporters who would do it. And I've always loved that energy, and I try to bring that energy to the stories I work on today. I love being at the crime scene. I love working with investigators, colleagues, going pouring over evidence, crime scenes, having them take me through step by step things, being shot off the shoulder, learning new facts, details about a story with the audience on my shoulder, watching me do it. And it's one of the. One of my specialties that I bring to the show. And I'm given a lot of leeway that if I want to jump into a circumstance, they let us do it. Because within that context, you learn so many new things. Once you get these relationships going, not only with investigators, but with families, characters, as we like to call them, that once you've established that trust, doors open and information flows. So a typical day when I'm out there is high energy, trying to do as much as I can in the field, chasing down the facts of a story.
- [10:09]
Kevin Greenlee
What are the kind of crime stories that you especially like to cover? Like what, what's the. What are the elements of, like, a classic Peter Van sant story for 48 hours?
- [10:19]
Peter Van Sant
You know, it's a lot like your show. You know, we. We. We all long for the story that has some mystery to it, that has twists and turns that we can probe and create relationships with people, gain their trust, they open up to us. I like a story. The Train to Kill podcast story we have. It's just unbelievable because it's in my backyard where I grew up, but I've never been on another story that had more twists and turns, fascinating characters. And to get in on the story early, where you're learning new information with every interview you do and every shoot you do. The kinds of stories I don't particularly like are when the story's over and we just go back and we do, like, the History Channel version of it. I call that, you know, we interview people and we're sitting in a nice, you know, lit thing. I like to be out moving about. And in this case, I was in Anacortes, Washington, the place I've been since I was a boy. I was in Eastern Washington, where my mother grew up. This story was deeply personal. So I like the twists and turns, fascinating characters, learning stuff along the way, creating relationships where we get Access to things that our competition can't. And every day is a little bit more fascinating than the previous one. And on this story, it was one of those. I was very lucky.
- [11:40]
Kevin Greenlee
So this is one of those stories where you guys got such good access, you were actually accessing people before the police even talked to them. Can you just tell me how you came to work on this particular one and how you made that happen? I mean, that's incredible.
- [11:55]
Peter Van Sant
Well, I have a buddy in Mount Vernon, Washington, one of my best friends. Mount Vernon is about, you know, 10 miles from Anacortes. And he calls me one day. This friend of mine has given me like four stories over the years. And he goes, you're not going to believe this, but the. This dog trainer, the celebrity dog trainer, and he's the dog whisperer of the Pacific Northwest, he's disappeared. There's blood all over his house, you know, because he knew people in the Skagit County Sheriff's Department. So I alerted the show, they greenlighted this very quickly, and out I came. This is an area I know, Anacortes, right? Since I was a boy going back to the 1950s. You know, we go to Anacortes to catch a ferry boat, to go to my paradise on earth. And if you guys haven't, my listeners haven't been there. The San Juan Islands in Washington state is unique in the world. It is one of the most beautiful places. Over 160 islands in northern Puget Sound, old growth forests in summertime, endless days, doesn't get dark till about 11 o'clock. Hiking, fishing, swimming, pristine lakes on Orcas island where we go. And it is a magical, magical place. And so jumping into all of that, I brought my heart and soul and all my experience to bear on this story. And once we were able to meet some of these people and the fact that I had that Washington State connection for Linda Updike, the heiress at the heart of this case, we met, we connected right away. Turns out a buddy of mine, his wife grew up just a few blocks from Linda Updike. And so it was, we had this connection. And once they reached realize I find, and you guys probably too, in your interviewing. Once people trust you and understand that you're trying to get the whole story, you're not just there to use them briefly and disappear. You honestly want to hear everything they have to say. And I always tell them, you know, I'll be asking you some questions during the course of this investigation that you may be uncomfortable with, but our viewers are going to want to know your opinion and when you answer those questions, you have to understand that increases your credibility, whether you're talking to a jury, law enforcement, or me. And it's in your best interest to deal with those. And once you establish that trust and they understand the spirit of your interviews is to get to the bottom of the case, things open up. And then once we got Linda, we got Michael Oakes because she trusted us. We met Michael Oakes, kids. We met Michael. I came off of a vacation on Orcas island in the San Juans to meet with John Henry Brown, the defense attorney, and Michael Oaks in an office in downtown Seattle in a T shirt and cutoffs because I wasn't planning on doing any work on my vacation. But I met him up there and it was one thing led to another. And we actually had interviews with Michael Ochs and with Linda Updike before they ever answered any questions from investigators.
- [15:02]
Anya Cain
So obviously, we're here talking about the Train to Kill podcast for those unfortunate people who've not yet listened to it. Can you give us, like, a very brief thumbnail of what this case is about?
- [15:15]
Peter Van Sant
Yes, it's. This is a case that during the course of the trial, I think the trial was more than six weeks. And we worked on this case off and on for a year. We produced three different hours about this case. It's really extensive, but the sort of. The thumbnail. It's the early morning hours of October 28, 2009, in Anacortes, Washington. This is a time where it's still dark in these hours. And an employee arrives at Mark Stover's house. He is known as the dog whisperer of the Pacific Northwest and the dog trainer to the stars. He had his business there on a multi acre parcel of land. So all his dog kennels are there. And an employee pulls up in her car, gets out and hears unbelievable barking and howling from dogs in their cages. She just told me it was uncontrollable. It almost sounded like werewolves. It was the most frightening thing she'd ever heard. And she, you know, she was an employee there. Dogs had never reacted like that before. She had a flashlight. She starts making her way up the long driveway toward the house, and she sees some blood in the driveway. She goes up to the carport and there's a door there that, that leads into the house. She said she reached for the doorknob and she had this overpowering voice inside her say, don't, don't do this. Don't open this door. She was, she was frightened. She backed away and she left and she decided, well, gee, I'm going to try to call Mark. Cause she didn't see any lights on in the house and things. She tried to call him but couldn't reach him. Then some minutes later, a second employee arrives at the house. This may be 15 minutes, 20 minutes later, the sun's just starting to come up and she has to use the restroom. The dogs are howling for her as well. And she heads up to the house, to the car part. She opens the door and looks and sees 2, 3 splotches of blood on the ground. And there's an overwhelming smell of bleach. Now remember all of us and family members I've talked to on so many cases, you'll walk into a scene like that and you don't think murder. So she was thinking, oh, one of the dogs must have gotten in a fight with an animal. And Mark must have taken that animal somewhere else. Later, she's down at the base of this driveway and she looks up and she sees Mark's white station wagon at the top of the driveway and a man that she believes is Mark. He's wearing his, his signature broad brimmed hat and this dark overcoat. And he seems to be putting something in the back of the station wagon. He gets in, in the vehicle and he flashes past this woman at a high rate of speed. She goes, that's weird. And she's thinking, well, gosh, maybe he has an appointment in Seattle and he's late for it. That is, though, when she went back to the house, she smells all this stuff. She goes, this is just weird. She freaks out, decides to leave, calls Mark over and over again. He's not answering. And instead of calling police at that point, because she still thinks that was Mark in the car, she waits till the next day when she returns and goes inside and examines what's in there. And she sees blood on the floor, blood on the walls. She leaves immediately, calls the Skagit County Sheriff's Department. Detective Dan Luvera arrives. He said the blood spatter that he saw told him a story. And that story was murder. And so you have Mark Stover, the dog trainer to the stars, is missing. He's not answering his phone. There's blood in the house. It's determined very quickly that this is human blood. And they believe a murder has occurred. And that's where the investigation is launched that will eventually involve an ex wife who is an heiress to one of the most wealthy families in the state of Washington, to an unusual boyfriend who was a self described bodyguard and an ex Wife described him as a self made action hero and an investigator who's trying to get to the bottom of this. A sheriff's department in eastern Washington who had, they learned, had been involved with Linda Updike, this heiress, because she had expressed fear that she was being stalked and her life was being threatened by Mark Stover because they had split up. And it turns into an investigation that is actually solved fairly quickly. And so you have a circumstance where there's blood on the floor, blood on the walls, A detective believing a murder has occurred, a celebrity dog trainer is missing, he's not answering his phone, and that's where this investigation starts. Who would possibly have a motive to kill Mark Stover?
- [20:24]
Kevin Greenlee
Absolutely. And you talked about the characters and getting to know characters through the reporting, but one really important character in this case that you could never interview or talk to was Mark Stover himself, the missing man. And I'm just wondering, as you piece together, you know, there are two portraits of Mark Stover that kind of come up in this story. Can you just tell us a little bit about that, about how what his character was like as far as people who knew him talking to you? And when you're hearing kind of these two sides to something, how do you sort of balance that as a journalist?
- [20:59]
Peter Van Sant
Mark Stover is an intriguing character. And whereas, of course, he was gone, we had no ability to interview him. We did get to hear him. He was on videotapes. We saw some video of him working with dogs. We spoke with his sister, who described him as a man who had had an incredibly difficult childhood. When Mark stover was just 18 months old, his father died. Not long after that. A month or two after that, a sister died and the family ended up in poverty. And Mark Stover was a troubled young man. He seemed to have no purpose. I was told by his sister he got kicked out of high school for smoking dope. He was expelled. He was on a road to nowhere. When he was at a funeral, it was awake. And someone approached him and gave him a German shepherd puppy named Gunter. And they said that he immediately connected with this animal and loved it. And over the course of some months, he trained this German shepherd to be a rescue dog. And his sister said that his life was transformed. And he studied dog training, and soon he was training friends of the family's animals and things. And it turns out that Mark Stover found his calling to be a dog trainer. And as he moved into his 30s, he started a business. And around that time, a woman by the name of Linda Updike who had a dog that she wanted to train, looked in the yellow pages and those listening Google Yellow Pages if you're not old like me, they used to dump these things at your doorstep once a year that, that you could look up dog trainer. And that's how she found Mark Stover was through the yellow pages of this book. And if he hadn't been given that dog, Gunter, those the paths the paws of those two people, as I like to say, would never have crossed. So Linda Updike, the polar opposite of Mark Stover. She was a woman from a life of privilege. Her father, Wally Updike, was one of the wealthiest people in the state of Washington. He was co owner of the largest winery in the state of Washington, one of the largest in the United States, Chateau St. Michel. And he also created, was the founder of K2. This is a snow skiing and snowboarding company. It sells all over the world. So she grew up in abundance, an opulent lifestyle, never had any wants or anything else. Highly educated, Linda Updike, sophisticated, 6ft tall, she was about 4 inches taller than, than Mark Stover, but bright, charismatic. These two polar opposites meet. It takes some time in their relationship before they become romantic. They're working together with her dog, and she was one of many clients he had. It was about eight, nine months into that relationship where they felt an attraction to each other because both liked to fly fish, both liked to hunt, and Linda was a real outdoors person and that was a big attraction for Mark and a romance began.
- [24:18]
Anya Cain
As you mentioned, you've spent a lot of time on this case, not just for the Train to Kill podcast, but also for 48 hours. I'm just curious, in all of that time reporting on this case and talking to all these people involved in this case, are there any standout moments for you?
- [24:35]
Peter Van Sant
A number of standout moments. When I went with Linda Updike to her home in Winthrop, Washington, after she divorced Mark Stover, she says she was stalked by him, harassed with harassing phone calls. There are voicemails you'll hear in the course of the podcast that he left her that were extremely disturbing voicemails about this is war, you know, threatening to hurt her. And I know how to do that. So she had moved to Winthrop, Washington, about 160 miles away. Winthrop. I, I'd been there a couple of times. It's a tourist place in the state of Washington. It is. It is built like a cowboy town. So downtown Winthrop has a saloon, the whole thing. It's like you're in a western movie Right. And during the summer, they have gunfights and everything else. Well, she lived outside of Winthrop in a very large house there. She. We wanted to shoot with her there. This moment was magical because, you know, once you get access, once you get trust, you just go with it and you see if you might learn something. We go into her house, and we didn't know going in that she had more than 20 firearms in that house that were hidden in various places. She kept a gun in a drawer next to her bed. Four feet away was a mural. There was a gun on a magnet. Behind that, there was other art where she had pistols on magnets. There were cabinets where she had guns. She had rifle ammunition for that. She wouldn't have to travel more than six feet inside this house to come upon another firearm. And why did she have all those weapons there? Because she had a security camera system. And while we were there, she showed us. We didn't know, again, we were going to see this until it happened before our eyes. She said, I want you to see because it has night vision. I have night vision cameras included in my security camera. And she. She does some searching. She finds this one night around two in the morning, here is this ghostly image of Mark Stover in black and white, moving about her property, walking up, testing doorknobs and things. It's just such a frightening piece of video to see. Very disturbing. So those were two moments that we were able to capture because we had this trust in this relationship. But it really blew me away. And it was such a metaphor for the fear that this woman was living under, that there were weapons everywhere. There was this security camera system. And despite all of that, she also told me that there was a night in which she was in bed. She's awakened, and Stover is at the foot of her bed. He comes up, puts a gun to the side of her head. He gets on his knees and starts to weep next to her in his bed and says, please take me back. I beg you to take me back. She managed to talk her way out of that, but it's that, Linda Updike, for me, is the recurring fascination in this story. She's a person that. And she answered every tough question I could come up with about her relationship with Michael Ochs, her boyfriend, the bodyguard, the suspected killer in this case. But it seemed like every time we got together with her, we learned something new, something dramatic about this case.
- [28:05]
Kevin Greenlee
Absolutely. I'm curious. You know, you talked about building up the trust with some of the characters in this. And one key thing Is just getting these interviews where you're getting these people to really open up about something terrible that's happened. What's the prep that goes into that for you as you're sort of like preparing to interview Linda or Michael or something like that?
- [28:26]
Peter Van Sant
Homework, exhaustive homework. I see behind you guys, you also are into homework. You do as much preparation as you can. My relationship, being a Washington state boy, my buddy who knew everybody in Skagit County, I had access to briefings from law enforcement, paperwork. People shared things with me, and anything that had been filed in relation to this case. I go over that so that. So that you can come in and have a sense of what the evidence is, what the history of harassment has been. And this is a unique case in that it's very circular in that Linda Updike says that she was threatened by Mark Stover after she told him, I want to get a divorce. And that is documented. Michael Oakes says that once he was hired by Linda to consult with her on personal security, that Stover started to harass him. That is not documented. That's. That's his story. And then Stover himself said that he was being harassed by Michael Ochs because a phone call was placed to law enforcement. A person who wouldn't identify himself to say, there's a crime that's going to occur in our community today. It's a man named Mark Stover. This is his vehicle. This is his license plate. You need to stop him when you hear the voice. And after I interviewed Oaks, so clearly that it's Michael Ochs, but so he was being harassed. So all three of them had fear levels toward Mark Stover. Mark Stover had fear levels toward not only Michael Ochs, but he once told this new woman in his life that he thought that Linda Updike wouldn't leave him alone until he was dead. That Stover believed that the harassment he was getting from Michael Oakes was. Was something that must have flowed somehow from Linda because they had a professional relationship as well as a personal relationship. But Oakes was being paid to provide her security. So it's a long winded way. And I'm known for being long winded of saying that my preparation is key for everything, and then watching these things unfold once we meet up with these folks.
- [30:48]
Kevin Greenlee
No, I mean, it's really well said. And just having. Having listened to this show and just looking into the story, it really. And I'm curious about your take on this. It really seems like, you know, the. The path, the road to hell is paved with paranoia, in this case, just sort of mutual paranoia. Distrust. And people instead of moving on with their new lives and partners, just kind of continuing to go back and spiral.
- [31:12]
Peter Van Sant
Yeah, it's like they couldn't let go. This has so much jealousy and anger and envy, conniving manipulation, this possessiveness that Mark Stover had, which is documented. He just couldn't let go of Linda Updike. And it's amazing to me how these intelligent, high achieving people can be so destroyed by something as simple as anger and rage and jealousy and all of that. No matter what you have in life, those basic evils that we all deal with from time to time can consume people. And it did. In this case, it consumed three. Three people.
- [31:54]
Kevin Greenlee
In a, In a story like this, where there really are two delineated camps and kind of one side and one, two sides kind of at war, it seems like, even to this day, how do you, how do you get both sides, how do you sort of court both sides without incurring the wrath of the other side? We're like, no, no, no, don't say anything bad about the victim or, you know, no, we're the, we're the innocent people here. Like, how do you, how do you balance that as you're kind of putting together one of these stories?
- [32:20]
Peter Van Sant
What's always important for any young journalist when you're, when you're getting a story like this, if you get access to a person like this, is to convince them. And it's, it's not, it's not an act. I mean, this is the way I work, this is the way 48 hours works, is that I honestly want to hear your story from your perspective. And I'm very open with him. We are talking to everyone we can in this story. This is your opportunity now. I come in this without bias. People are presumed innocent until found guilty. I believe in that. I think if I wasn't doing this, I'd be a defense attorney in life. And so I want to hear what you have to say. And you understand that I will ask you some questions, direct questions about some facts, and I look forward to hearing what you have to say. But I'm not coming in with, with a preconceived script or outline. I'm here to hear what you have to tell me. And that is what opens the doors. And so you work your way. It's a chronology. You work your way from the time they first met, what they thought of each other. We have a story to tell. You guys go through this in your podcast all the time you have a story to you, don't begin the interview with, look, I know you did this. I know you're behind this. I know you must have plotted this killing. Get out of here, Van Sant. You know, you let them tell their story and then you challenge them at the end of the interview with them, understanding you're going to challenge all sides, including investigators.
- [33:51]
Anya Cain
What's it like getting sourced up with investigators?
- [33:55]
Peter Van Sant
I have a really good relationship with law enforcement, but. And I've spoken at homicide conventions, you know, homicide investigator conventions and things in California and Las Vegas and things. They get it. The smaller town people are generally the more difficult to be direct with because they may have local media, local newspaper. They know the people personally, and they don't tend to get challenged. And so that can always be more difficult. Is when you deal with small town. One of the advantages now with 48 having been on the show, many of those law enforcement people have seen me on tv and they have a sense of how I ask things, and they can tell that we do a fair job on this, but it's always challenging. And there are people that, you know, won't talk to you, of course. They just don't trust the media at all. And we just have to work around that. But it's trying to get that trust again and go from there. And I also like to. One of the things I like to say to them, it's one of my little secrets I'm sharing with you right now is the hour that we are putting together will be an historic document for you and your family. When you have grandkids, you're gonna be able to show them this show and what they did. And this will be seen all over the world. I'm not. I missed it. News, you know, I'm not live at 4. I'm not here. I am here to tell as extensively and completely as I can this story. And you're a crucial part of that. Don't let someone else tell me what you were doing. You tell me what you were doing. And at the end of the day, we will create a show that I think you will be proud of and you will not regret participating in. You will regret not participating in. And for family members and law enforcement and things. They. At the end of the day, if they've done their jobs properly and things, they love these shows because it is a piece of their family history. So that's kind of how I approach it with them.
- [36:05]
Kevin Greenlee
That's an incredible pitch.
- [36:06]
Anya Cain
Yeah. And when you talk about creating something that has a legacy like that. It makes me think CBS News as a whole has kind of a unique space because so many storied names in news have worked there. Edward R. Murrow, Walter Cronkite, Fred Friendly. As we speak, there's actually a play on Broadway about CBS News. What's it like working for a place that, for lack of a better word, is so special and so unique and valued?
- [36:38]
Peter Van Sant
CBS News, I believe, is still the only news division in the United States of America that has a new standards booklet that when you first are hired, they give you this booklet, fairly thick, describing how professionally CBS News approaches stories, what's required, the sourcing, and it's something that we are extremely proud of. I made my name early on at CBS News doing investigative reporting. I was based in Atlanta, and I tried to follow in the tradition of those who I had idolized when I was a student at Washington State University, the Edward R. Murrow Communications center there, which is one of the great learning centers for broadcast journalism in the United States. Eric Severide came. He was a one of the Murrow boys back after World War II when. When CBS News was in its infancy. These brilliant writers and print journalists and things that moved into broadcast. Severide, I just. It was like. For me, it was like seeing the Beatles, right? And I'm such a dork. But at Washington State University, Eric Severide comes in. If you Google his name and you'll see his picture and stuff, the whole room was, oh, God, you just heard this buzz, and this is all these students. It's pretty funny because I love to tell the story. I went back to Washington State University to get an award. I'd been at CBS News at that time for about 20 years and won, you know, multiple Emmys and stuff. And I go into the auditorium and they posted all this stuff that Peter Van Sat and another correspondent named Barry Seraphin of ABC News, who years ago was. Was just a terrific talent also from Washington State. We walked into this room and there's six people there, and it's like. It's like, what, you know, and. And, you know, five of them were professors. I mean, it was. It was how the world has changed. And then. So they take us into these classrooms and it was, you know, back then, when we would. Had a chance to talk to journalists, it would be, how do you question this? The kind of questions you're asking me? But all the kids, how much do you make? I want to be an anchor, and I don't really like to travel much. I mean, it was, it's just kind of, it's very different. But so, so carrying the legacy of CBS News is really important for us. Old timers and younger reporters who come in are marinated in that same tradition. And we always hope that it survives. It's a tough world out there, the economics in our business now. But here you still have a show. You know, 48 hours, 60 minutes is fantastic. The evening news is still cooking along. Sunday morning really. And CBS Mornings, there's some real good journalism still being done.
- [39:25]
Kevin Greenlee
Absolutely. And Trained to Kill is definitely excellent piece of journalism. We really strongly recommend this podcast. I do have one question for you before you go. Just you've been doing these stories for so long with 48, and you've kind of delved into some of the like recesses of kind of awful situations and kind of humanity at its worst. Why do you think we as the audience really love these stories and want to know about true crime, even though it is on some level just horrible, depressing stuff? What, what about it intrigues us, in your view?
- [39:58]
Peter Van Sant
I find that what we're all intrigued with is the mystery of the human soul and conscience and where this comes from, where this evil, what engenders this. Do I have it inside me? Do you have it inside you? These stories are so intriguing and I find that crime is the canary in the mineshaft of our culture, of our civilization, of who we are, how we treat each other. And within that, I find it fascinating to sit across from people accused of these crimes. Some people who were completely normal in life had never done, done anything wrong. Story I just recently did in Montana. A guy with Fish and Game Wildlife. He was on TV shows. He was a beloved figure in Montana. And back in 1996, he was on a lonely path near a fishing access area outside of Bozeman, Montana, and he comes upon a young woman, rapes, murders her, suffocates her by sticking her face in mud and things. Finally they caught up with him. And it was a great story that this aired this past season. They finally caught up with him. He committed suicide. Family never was able to get answers as to why he did what he did. But where did that come from? Where did that evil come from? And we're all so fascinated with that side of human nature. And you know, our shows do well in places like in Canada. You know, they don't allow pre trial publicity. They have the English model where most of this stuff is kept very quiet. There are no cameras in the courtroom ever. And people, I was in Australia One time on a story and this couple comes up. Oh, Petra Van Santa, is that you? Learn from Ireland. I love your show. Can't believe the camera's in there, you know, and they're. They just couldn't. They love. They. They love this access and this fascination with Americans and what happens in our country. But anyway, I just think crime is such an indicator of who we are and where we are as a people and a culture, and it is vitally important to all of us, and so many of us, including my family, we've been touched with crime before. It just adds to that fascination to get to the bottom of all of this and try to sort it out.
- [42:30]
Kevin Greenlee
I know we have one minute left, but is there anything we didn't ask you about that you wanted to mention?
- [42:36]
Peter Van Sant
Just this murder occurred in Anacortes, Washington. I'd been in that community since I was a little boy, many times over. It was an affront to me, an affront to my gateway to paradise, to where I still go every summer, to these islands. And so I had a real stake in this story. These were my people. This is my state. And I so was driven to get to the bottom of this and to see justice done in this case. And I believe it was.
- [43:10]
Anya Cain
Thank you so much. This is incredible.
- [43:12]
Kevin Greenlee
Yeah, we really appreciate you taking the time.
- [43:14]
Peter Van Sant
Thank you, guys. Great job. Great job. Keep up the good work. Thank you so much.
- [43:18]
Kevin Greenlee
Thank you so much. Thank you so much to Peter Van Sant. We really enjoyed talking with him again. You can listen to Train to Kill, which we'd recommend highly. Wherever you listen to podcasts, we're talking Apple Wondry, iHeartRadio, Spotify, anywhere. Check it out.
- [43:33]
Anya Cain
Thanks so much for listening to the Murder Sheet. If you have a tip concerning one of the cases we cover, please email us@murdersheetmail.com if you have actionable information about an unsolved crime, please report it to the appropriate authorities.
- [43:53]
Kevin Greenlee
If you're interested in joining our Patreon, that's available at www.patreon.com murdersheet. If you want to tip us a bit of money for records requests, you can do so at www. Buymeacoffee.com murdersheet. We very much appreciate any support.
- [44:17]
Anya Cain
Special thanks to Kevin Tyler Greenlee, who composed the music for the Murder Sheet and who you can find on the web@kevintg.com if you're looking to talk with.
- [44:28]
Kevin Greenlee
Other listeners about a case we've covered, you can join the Murder Sheet discussion group on Facebook. We mostly focus our time on research and reporting. So we're not on social media much. We do try to check our email account, but we ask for patience as we often receive a lot of messages. Thanks again for listening.
- [44:50]
Anya Cain
Can we talk a little bit before we go about quints, a great new sponsor for us, I think in one of the ads that we've already done for them, we talked about the compliments I'm getting on my jacket. I know you're a very modest woman, but can we talk about the compliments you're getting on the Quint's products you wear?
- [45:09]
Kevin Greenlee
Yeah, I've got two of their Mongolian cashmere sweaters. They're a brand that just does this sort of luxurious products, but without the crazy costs. Really. Well, they are. They give you Italian leather handbags. They do like, European linen sheets. You have a really cool suede jacket. And I really like the way I look in my sweaters. I like the way you look in your bomber jacket. It looks super cool.
- [45:34]
Anya Cain
You've gotten a lot of compliments when you go out wearing these sweaters.
- [45:37]
Kevin Greenlee
I think I have, yeah.
- [45:38]
Anya Cain
And deservedly so.
- [45:40]
Kevin Greenlee
Also, like, I'm one of those people. My skin is very, like, you know, like, I. I kind of sensitive. So when it comes to wearing sweaters, like, you know, sometimes something's too scratchy, like, it really bothers me. These are so soft. They're just like, very delicate and soft and make it. They're wearing them is lovely because they're super comfortable. You're not. You're not. It's not one of those things where you're like, you buy it and it looks great, but it doesn't feel that great. They look great. They feel great. But, yeah, I really love them. And you got, you know, your cool jacket. I mean, that's a little bit of a. You're. You're the guy who, like, wears the same thing all the time. So this is a bit of a. A gamble for you, a bit of a risk. You got something a bit different.
- [46:15]
Anya Cain
I do wash my clothes.
- [46:17]
Kevin Greenlee
I know you wash your clothes, but I mean, you're filthy.
- [46:21]
Anya Cain
You just made me sound awful, so. No, I wash my clothes.
- [46:24]
Kevin Greenlee
But you don't really.
- [46:25]
Anya Cain
I launder them.
- [46:26]
Kevin Greenlee
You don't really experiment with fashion that much is what I'm saying. So this is a little bit out of the norm for you, but I think you really like it and it looks good.
- [46:32]
Anya Cain
Thank you. Great products, incredible prices. Calm.
- [46:37]
Kevin Greenlee
There you go. So you can go to quince. Com msheet, and right now they're offering 365 day returns plus free shipping on your order. So it's quince.commsheet that's q u I n c e com msh e e t.