Murder Sheet: A Conversation with Prosecutor Nicholas McLeland and Chief Public Defender Tim Sledd: Part Two (August 26, 2025)

Overview

In this in-depth, candid episode of Murder Sheet, hosts Anya Cain and Kevin Greenlee sit down with Nicholas McLeland, elected prosecutor of Carroll County, and Tim Sledd, chief public defender of Lawrence County, for the second part of their wide-ranging conversation about the realities of working criminal cases in rural Indiana. Drawing from their years of experience as both prosecutors and defense attorneys, McLeland and Sledd unpack the emotional and ethical toll of their work, the impact on their communities, perspectives on drug addiction and trauma, and the complexities introduced by social media and public scrutiny of high-profile cases.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

Pet Peeves and Professional Annoyances in the Courtroom

• Defense Attorney's Annoyances with Prosecutors
  • Tim Sledd laments prosecutors who rush through witness examinations, missing opportunities for the truth.
    • Quote: “Not listening to the responses that their witnesses are giving them. It annoys me when prosecutors rush...Take your time with them.” – Tim Sledd (04:50)
  • Sledd also decries “monsterizing” the defendant, turning a human with mistakes into a caricature in front of a jury.
• Prosecutor's Annoyances with Defense
  • Nicholas McLeland expresses frustration with unprofessionalism, particularly when defense attorneys violate agreed-upon motions or attack him in front of the jury.
    • Quote: “When they just act unprofessional or I make an objection and they talk over me, or they just don't respect the procedure, that really, really, really frustrates me to no end.” – Nicholas McLeland (08:19)

Ethics, Duty, and the Tension between Idealism and Pragmatism

• Balancing Duty and Morality
  • McLeland: Needs to be “convinced beyond a reasonable doubt” before charging someone, prioritizing both ethical and moral obligations (10:13).
  • Sledd: Defends those presumed guilty to uphold constitutional rights for all—"protecting those who are actually innocent from the same governmental action." (11:44)
    • Quote: “In defending a person who I know to be guilty, I'm protecting those who are actually innocent from the same governmental action.” – Tim Sledd (11:44)
  • Both stress that true justice means respecting due process, not “winning at all costs.”

Community Relations and Life in a Small Town

• Prosecutors and Defense Attorneys in the Community
  • McLeland: Receives mostly positive reactions, but is mindful about encounters with family members of defendants he's prosecuted (19:08).
  • Sledd shares poignant and sometimes tense stories—including a moment when a formerly convicted man sought him out years later, now grateful for a comforting word to his mother.
    • Quote: “He said, ‘I hated you...but she [his mother] told me the nice thing you did and how you cared for her.’” – Tim Sledd (20:13)
  • Both remark on the importance of compassion, whether sending someone to prison or supporting a defendant through a hard process.

Emotional Toll and Coping Mechanisms

• Dealing with Trauma
  • Both men describe secondary trauma: the emotional cost of repeated exposure to violence, addiction, and heartbreak in their clients and victims.
  • McLeland: Details the stress of child victim cases—“It's hard to unsee those images” (39:43).
  • Sledd: Candidly discusses his own struggles with nightmares and PTSD after repeated exposure to homicide and autopsies. He speaks openly about therapy and self-awareness as essential tools.
    • Quote: “To be blunt, messed me up big time...Trauma wasn't a word that was being talked about as much then as it is now. But there was a fracture in my character that I didn't think could exist...” – Tim Sledd (41:03)
• Advice for Prospective Lawyers
  • Both recommend experience on either side (public defense or prosecution) for developing courtroom skills, resilience, and perspective.
    • “If you want to be a litigator, then yes, criminal law needs to be where you're at. Cause that's where you're gonna get the most opportunity to be in court and to argue.” – Nicholas McLeland (49:11)
  • Emphasize the importance of support systems and maintaining healthy, pro-social activities to cope: golfing, family time, hobbies (50:29).

Drug Addiction and Criminal Justice

• Methamphetamine Pandemic
  • McLeland and Sledd stress that most probation violations are for meth and marijuana—discussing the "one-time use" nature of meth addiction, the near inevitability of relapse, and the difficulty of true rehabilitation under current systems (33:40–35:40).
    • Quote: “It amazes me too, that somebody can use meth one time and then they're addicted...and then they're full blown addiction.” – Nicholas McLeland (33:40)
  • Both express frustration with how the justice system struggles to address the root causes (addiction, mental illness, poverty), and how sentences often destabilize families and fail to achieve rehabilitation.

Social Media, Public Perception, and Courtroom Transparency

• Challenges of the Internet Age
  • McLeland voices frustration at misinformation and trial-by-social-media, particularly after high-profile cases like the Delphi murders. The rush to judgment by the public undermines due process, presumption of innocence, and fair trials (52:33).
    • Quote: “Sometimes they want to convict the person before we've even had the initial hearing...The amount of false information that's out there is really, really, really frustrating.” – Nicholas McLeland (52:33)
  • Sledd adds that echo chambers online create warped narratives, fueling division—even among legal professionals consuming different media (54:22).
• Cameras in the Courtroom
  • Both debate the merits and pitfalls of greater transparency, ultimately leaning toward supporting cameras—at least in adult criminal cases—so the public can see proceedings directly, rather than filtered through media or rumor (58:45–63:45).
    • Quote: “If cameras were in the courtroom, then they. You could have seen it for yourself...just watch the tape.” – Nicholas McLeland (63:45)

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Professionalism and Ethics
  “I don't ever intentionally violate the rules of evidence...I respect the defendant has a right to a fair trial. And again, I've said this tons of times. It cuts both ways. We do too.” – Nicholas McLeland (08:19)

• On Defense Work
  “Often as a defense lawyer, you are the only person that's going to show care, sincere care to this person in the months that you get to have their case.” – Tim Sledd (22:58)

• On Courtroom Moxie
  “If you're chicken when it comes to getting ready to go in court, you're not worth a whole lot...you're going to back out in a lot of ways that you may not need to.” – Tim Sledd (46:47)

• On Living with Trauma
  “I have a lot of emotion and a lot of care, and I grieve very badly, even for people that I don't know.” – Tim Sledd (44:50)

• On Public Judgement & Transparency
  “Remind everybody that they are presumed innocent. So don't convict them in social media, you know, at the end of the day that's somebody's son, daughter.” – Nicholas McLeland (53:45)

• On Misinformation
  “We live in a world of disinformation, misinformation. It's only going to get worse when all you have to do is provide a nugget of information into a system that then can interpret it and create a whole narrative…” – Tim Sledd (55:58)

Timestamps for Significant Topics

• Pet Peeves in Courtrooms: 04:42–09:40
• Duty vs. Morality / Ethics: 09:40–18:11
• Community Reactions: 18:38–24:24
• Secondary Trauma & Coping: 24:24–52:21
• On Drug Addiction & Recidivism: 33:40–39:29
• Impact of Trauma, Personal Stories: 39:29–46:47
• Advice for New Lawyers: 46:47–51:46
• Social Media, Misinformation, and Cameras in the Courtroom: 52:21–66:30

Final Thoughts & Takeaways

• The justice system is as emotionally demanding as it is procedurally complex—both for those accused and those tasked with prosecution or defense.
• Real justice requires professional integrity, uncompromising ethics, and deep personal resilience.
• Drug addiction and mental illness remain the great unsolved challenges of local criminal justice.
• Misinformation and online speculation threaten the fairness and privacy of all involved in high-profile cases.
• Cameras in the courtroom may help counteract misinformation, but they are not a complete solution.
• Self-care and support systems are vital for anyone considering a career in the criminal legal system.

This episode is especially recommended for listeners interested in the lived experiences of rural legal practitioners, the intersection of law and mental health, and the ripple effects of digital media on justice.