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- [00:00]
Anya Cain
If you're like me, you get a little bummed out after the holidays. But there's no reason not to treat yourself and your loved ones a little bit all year round. And the good news is that Murder Sheet listeners can embrace the finer things without breaking the bank. All thanks to our wonderful sponsor, Quince.
- [00:16]
Kevin Greenlee
Quince is a game changer when it comes to everyday luxury. Their pieces are high value and accessibly priced. Take their iconic Mongolian cashmere sweaters that start at $50. They've also got Italian leather handbags, washable silk shirts and European linen sheet sets. Those are the sorts of things that make life just a little bit more luxurious. And remember, by supporting our sponsors, you're supporting us and allowing us to do this work.
- [00:46]
Anya Cain
I love my Mongolian cashmere sweaters. I got the black V neck sweater and a dark blue turtleneck sweater. They're so soft and comfortable. I wear them all the time and I love the way I look in them. They're the perfect thing for a chilly winter's day.
- [01:00]
Kevin Greenlee
All quince items are 50 to 80% less costly than those of their competitors, so you know you're getting an amazing deal. Plus, we love Quince's commitment to ethics. They only partner with factories that use safe and responsible manufacturing practices. They maintain low cost by cutting out the middleman and passing the savings onto all of us.
- [01:23]
Anya Cain
Treat yourself this winter without the luxury price tag. Go to quince.commsheet for 365 day returns plus free shipping on your order. That's Q U I n c e.com msheet to get free shipping and 365 day returns. Quince.com msheet here at the Murder Sheet.
- [01:47]
Kevin Greenlee
We are huge fans of the author Scott Turow. His first novel, Presumed Innocent, came out back in 1987 and introduced readers to the lawyers of Kendall County. In the years since, Turrou has published many more novels, rich and gripping legal thrillers, each one well worth reading.
- [02:06]
Anya Cain
Even if you haven't read any of his books, you still may have met some of his characters. Presumed Innocent was made into a successful film starring Harrison Ford and just last year was also adapted into a television series on Apple. That story focused on Rusty Savage, a prosecutor facing a murder trial for the death of his lover.
- [02:27]
Kevin Greenlee
Turrell returns to Rusty's story in his latest novel, Presumed Guilty, and you don't need to have read any of Turrell's earlier novels in order to fully appreciate it. Now a much older Rusty has settled down in a rural part of his state. He seems to have found true love at last. But there was a pretty big complication. The African American son of Rusty's fiance is charged with murdering his girlfriend, and he wants Rusty to defend him in court.
- [02:57]
Anya Cain
Scott was kind enough to take the time to talk with us about the new novel, the stresses of trial work, and how a prosecutor knows when he's ready to move into criminal defense. My name is Anya Cain. I'm a journalist.
- [03:10]
Kevin Greenlee
And I'm Kevin Greenlee.
- [03:11]
Scott Turow
I. Hi.
- [03:12]
Kevin Greenlee
I'm an attorney.
- [03:13]
Anya Cain
And this is the Murder Sheet.
- [03:14]
Kevin Greenlee
We're a true crime podcast focused on original reporting, interviews, and deep dives into murder cases.
- [03:21]
Anya Cain
We're the Murder Sheet.
- [03:23]
Kevin Greenlee
And this is a conversation with Scott Turow, author of Presumed Guilty.
- [03:43]
Interviewee
It's.
- [04:13]
Scott Turow
Well, we're here to discuss your newest novel, which is Presumed Guilty. It's absolutely a terrific book. It continues the story that I guess, ultimately began in your very first novel, which you famously wrote on commuter trains back in Chicago. Can you tell us what inspired this particular story, the story of a person who was presumed guilty?
- [04:38]
Interviewee
I carried around with me for several years a thought which is hardly original about what happens inside a family when somebody is accused of a terrible crime. And I just. I think it. It's not. Again, it's not the first time I've written about this, but it always puts the conflict between family loyalties and the absolute declarations of the law in conflict. So the parents love the child no matter what, and, you know, the law says if the child's done wrong, the child must be punished. So, you know, that always appealed to me. And when I carry these thoughts around for long periods of time, I'm always trying to find the character who fits the situation. And, you know, the idea of going back to Rusty, the idea that I was going to go back to Rusty for a third time has, you know, I thought after Innocent, the second book in this, what is now triplet of novels about him, that I thought I would do it. And then. So I began to think, well, I guess now is the moment. And that's where the idea began to grow. And, you know, for. For many years, Adrian and I have.
- [06:15]
Scott Turow
But.
- [06:15]
Interviewee
But particularly since the pandemic, we spent most of our time back in the Middle west living in rural Wisconsin, where, you know, we've long had a family home. And the. I've had the idea again for a while that, well, I'd like to do something in this setting which is, you know, seems less familiar to me in contemporary fiction. So that's how all these things came together. And I guess that's a pretty fair explanation of what happened next.
- [06:51]
Scott Turow
The setting, which is most of your books are in Kendall county, as you say, this is a different setting. That is not what you usually see in contemporary fiction and is someone who spends some time in that sort of environment. You really did capture it well. Why do you suppose that setting is not used more by contemporary writers?
- [07:16]
Interviewee
Probably because our writers, to a large extent, end up hanging out together, and that's usually in urban settings. You know, probably, you know, some good fraction of the people in the United States who call themselves writers can be found either in New York or la. So there. There are fewer people who are living in, you know, more rural environments. And I think the simple answer to the question you asked Kevin is just they're less familiar with it. It's not where they're living. They may have started out there, but it's not where they're living now.
- [07:53]
Was it a challenge for you to break out of Kindle County?
- [07:56]
Anya Cain
I mean, that has become such a.
- [07:58]
Interviewee
Sort of a rich venue for you for this fictional county where so many of your characters are based. So was it a bit of a challenge to kind of get out of that and kind of create a whole new place?
- [08:09]
It would have been if I hadn't been, you know, I first bought this house in southeastern Wisconsin more than 30 years ago. And, you know, it's a place where my kids, you know, not not only did they grow up coming there, but they still return there now with their children, which delights me to no end. So I'd been observing that environment for at least three. Three decades. And so it wasn't all that hard. What's odd is what I hope the novel captures, which is this is an area that's neither, you know, betwixt nor between. You know, in one end of it, there's this very well to do summer enclave, which is actually Lake Geneva, Wisconsin. And then. But you don't. You don't have to go that far. And you really. And, you know, you're amid the soybean fields and the corn fields, and then on the far eastern side of the place where I actually, you know, spent part of the year, on the far eastern side, there's the city of Kenosha, which is one of those typical Midwestern former factory towns that has been hollowed out by the economic losses of the last several decades. Again, as an environment, I think it's really interesting, probably not all that commonplace to have the rich on one end and the poor on the other, but obviously, it suits a novelist well.
- [09:45]
So you're not just writing about the setting. You're actually writing about the legal culture of this kind of place.
- [09:51]
Anya Cain
And can you tell us kind of.
- [09:53]
Interviewee
What research went into that and sort of how you were able to capture that in a way that felt so real?
- [09:59]
Again, it's having been there, and it's involved in everything from having to sue a contractor, who, as contractors sometimes do end up disappointing, and being involved occasionally very low level, with some criminal cases as a lawyer and, you know, observing what went on with one of my wife's traffic tickets up there. So I had a kind of thorough, if slow, education in what goes on in the courts up there.
- [10:36]
Scott Turow
This, as you mentioned, this is the third book that focuses on Rusty. So I actually went back and I reread the first two before I read this one, and a couple of things struck me. First of all, obviously, Presumed Innocent and Innocent are great novels. I love Presumed Innocent so much. When I was published, you know, I became a fan of yours for life. But it occurs when I'm rereading these books. Each one is better and richer than the one before it. And I really feel that this book is, frankly, the best of the three. So that struck me. And the other thing that struck me is when you write about Kendall county is you're almost like Balzac because you have this huge cast of characters that drift in and out of these novels. And when I read these three books back to back, it all fits. How do you keep all of that stuff straight?
- [11:34]
Interviewee
One of the. I mean, first of all, I do the simple thing, you know, as you did, Kevin, and I reread the books, so I remind myself what I said before. And I've goofed sometimes when I've come back to books and casts of characters. I think I was writing the Last Trial, and somebody pointed out to me that Marta Stern, who's Sandy Stern's daughter, I gave her a different husband in an earlier book than I was giving her in that. So I do make mistakes. But generally speaking. And as I was about to say, one of the things that fear most about aging is that I have a terrific memory for those kinds of things. So, you know, of course, as you get older, it's not quite as fresh in your mind as it once was. But, you know, it really is sort of melded together in my head. It's a concrete place, you know, just for.
- [12:38]
For folks who might be listening. You know, Rusty goes from being a prosecutor to a judge and has a lot of traumatic happenings happen to him along the way, I guess. And you've put him through a lot over the years. But. But as we're sort of reintroduced to Rusty, you know, can you just kind of tell us about how, you know, this. This iteration of the character might be a little different? He's maybe a little older, maybe a little wiser. Can you just talk through that a little bit?
- [13:05]
Yeah. Well, I mean, you know, fair point that he's been. He's had fabulous misfortune that certainly in the first two novels and by the. By the end of Innocent, which, as Presumed Guilty reveals each of these, is meant to be a standalone. But Presumed Guilty does reveal that at the end of Innocent, he's been released after a brief stint in prison. And he comes away from that experience as a true legal burnout and a burnout on Kendall county in general. Whether it was his fault or not, he really feels that that's an environment that, for whatever reason, has led him to lead a pretty disappointing life. And he's gone into refuge in this place where a little like me there, he's always had this little family cabin. And he goes up there really feeling somewhat misanthropic and eager for the isolation and lives that way for a while. But eventually he meets a woman, good deal younger than he is, but, you know, a very solid human being, well set in her life. Something happens in their relationship that he recognizes is better. Better for him, makes him much more who he wants to be and some more fulfilling love than what he's experienced earlier in his life. And because of that, you know, he has a certain sense of achievement in the way he's living. He's. He's. He's come out of the shell that he put over himself. He's increasingly a member of this rural community. His wife to be, is a grade school principal. And it all seems to be going well for him. He really feels, you know, revivified. Not necessarily his age, although he's 77 by the time the main action of the book commences, or about to become 77 and, you know, but he's feeling younger than his years and really, if not excited, very eager to live what's left of his life in. You know, in. In this setting and with this particular person.
- [16:00]
Anya Cain
I wish I could automate all my New Year's resolutions so I wouldn't have to muster the willpower to go on a walk for exercise or if I could automatically kick myself off my phone and launch a Margaret Millar book into my hands instead. That would be awesome. Somewhat scary, but super helpful.
- [16:16]
Kevin Greenlee
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- [16:34]
Anya Cain
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- [16:59]
Kevin Greenlee
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- [17:17]
Anya Cain
At the end of the day. We run a small business, so we know firsthand how hard it can be to figure out money stuff. Plus, we're not very financially minded. I'm a history major. Kevin is an English major. We're not savvy with finances. An app like Acorns is a game changer because it allows you to automate so much of this without having to actively think about it all the time. Head to acorns.commsheet or download the Acorns app to start saving and investing for your future today. Paid non client endorsement compensation provides incentive to positively promote Acorns. Tier 1 compensation provided investing involves risk. Acorns Advisors LLC and SEC registered investment advisor. View important disclosures@acorns.commsheet yeah, it is you.
- [17:59]
Scott Turow
As you say that, it reminds me, there's a scene relatively early on in the book, so this is not giving away any spoilers, where he goes to a. I believe it's a bar to try to find someone and he is talking to someone there who has a dog that has just died and he talks about how this is a dog that was like had a terrible life, was beaten and abused, but then the dog is put into a home where the dog is shown love and the dog was just incredibly grateful for that. And in some way. Is that what happened to Rusty?
- [18:34]
Interviewee
Yeah, well, I really hadn't Thought about it that way, Kevin. But you're right, you know, you're right. And you know, thematically, you know, the book does start with the idea of redemption, that things can get better in our lives. It sort of goes against the grain of contemporary assumptions, but in, but in point of fact, you know, if you're both self revealing and self knowing, hopefully you can avoid making the same mistakes you've made before. And while the dog has far less choice about the environment in which he arrives, he's at least smart enough, as dogs always seem to be, to really appreciate, you know, the humans who are kind to him.
- [19:26]
Scott Turow
I was reading an essay you wrote for Crime Reads a while ago and you said if a novel is really going well, there's usually a character who kind of runs away with it. And curious, was there a character that ran away with this novel?
- [19:39]
Interviewee
Yeah, I think Joe B is Aaron's, Bea is Rusty's fiance, and her father is Joe, who is a sort of hard grained local who really is a misfit, but hasn't wanted to be a misfit. So his background is his father was a Mexican migrant, his mother was a member of the, what we now call the Winnebago Nation. And you know, he was raised through many of his younger years living as a child of migrant workers. But, you know, he's sort of always wanted to fit in and he has, but in a very stubborn and sometimes very angry way. And he was just one of those characters who, as I started to write, sort of came out whole, you know, and he's everything that's infuriating about him being his child, you know, he's shamelessly inconsistent in whatever he says. And he's one of these wounded people who can never stand to admit that he's wrong. So he's always right, you know, no matter what he's done and where he's been. And, you know, he's just one of those characters who was like, oh, I know this guy. Don't ask me why I know this guy, but I know this guy.
- [21:19]
I think we all know a Joe for sure. I was curious. You know, at the heart of this book is a murder trial. And one thing I found in your works, you know, we've covered actual murder trials. Oftentimes the public does not realize that a lot of elements of those are a lot more mundane than is shown on tv. But you manage this kind of alchemy where you're able to make it feel very realistic in that like nothing's happening that's A ridiculous sort of, you know, legal fiction. It's. It's all feels grounded, but it's still very compelling. And I'm just, how do you do that?
- [21:59]
Well, another long winded answer, but I've always been impressed by how similar movie making is to trying cases. And when the Apple series of Presumed Innocent was being filmed, Adrian and I went to the set, and I was shocked at how much she liked it, because most people arrive in a movie set and going, wait a minute, I just saw this scene. Now they're going to film it again. And they film it again, and then a sixth time and a seventh time, and it's like, what the hell is the difference? This is like watching paint dry. And trying cases, of course, is very much the same way. But I was convinced from the time I first started writing about trials, which was when I conceived of Presumed Innocent and began, as Kevin points out, writing on the commuter train, I believe that it was still an inherently dramatic process. And of course, you know, at the end of the day, so is movie making, and that have to avoid the repetition and the jargon and all the rest of it. But sometimes, even in what seem to be technical matters, you know, like jury instructions, there's actually a lot of stake. And if you can cut through the language and all the rituals that surround all of these things, you can begin to explain it, I think, to a popular audience. So that in Presumed Guilty, whether or not there's going to be a motion for mistrial becomes a somewhat dramatic development. And I've always been proud that people who try cases like my books, because there are, you know, there are moments for lawyers when, you know, when things happen that just, you know, would never happen in court. And, you know, my favorite example of this is I love and respect David E. Kelly and who was the, you know, leading creative spirit between behind the new version of Presumed Innocent. But years ago, I was watching one of David's shows. I think it was Boston Legal, and there was a peeping Tom who was being sentenced, and the judge had him pull his pants down in the courtroom. And when I would talk to David about it, of course he would say, that's drama. That's what the audience wants to see. And I would say, but it would never happen in court, no matter how much the audience wants to see it. You know, that dressing down has to be figurative, not literal. And so I've always tried to operate within those rules, but still try to preserve some of the drama that a great narrativist like David likes to exploit. In the stuff that he put so successfully on television.
- [25:07]
So one thing I wanted to ask you about was, you know, we see Rusty taking on a completely new role in this novel as defense attorney. He's been a prosecutor, he's been a judge. You yourself have been a assistant U.S. attorney as well as worked for the defense side. And I'm curious, you know, is it. Is it easy to cross over or do things about, like your sort of legal muscle memory have to sort of.
- [25:31]
Anya Cain
Fundamentally shift in order for you to.
- [25:33]
Interviewee
Kind of do both?
- [25:35]
Well, well, there are some prosecutors who just can't do it. They're, you know, wedded to the worldview, which is not, you know, as a whole, wrong that, you know, that. That they're doing the right thing by prosecuting bad people. Then there are people like myself and many of my friends from the U.S. attorney's office. By the time you finish as a prosecutor, by the time you're ready to go, one of the things that sends you out the door is the recognition that the government is not always right. And I remember I was about halfway through my tenure as a prosecutor, and my trial partner and I were trying to get a defendant to flip on his confederates. And we got into a heated discussion with the defense lawyer, and we said, you know, this guy's gonna end up doing time he doesn't have to do. Why won't he. Why won't he turn on his co defendants? And the defense lawyer argued. He said, because the government doesn't have it right. And my trial partner, who'd been at it four or five years longer than I had, and who remains one of my dear friends, started shouting at the defense lawyer. He says, the government never has it right. He says, we've never got all the details where they belong, and we think something is up when it was actually down. But that doesn't mean that we're wrong about the fundamentals, which is, your client is guilty, and so is the guy we want him to testify against. And I sat there in shock of hearing my trial partner say, you know, the government never has it right. But once you've crossed that Rubicon and you realize that the government never has it completely right, you're ready to become a defense lawyer. Because that's the defense lawyer's job, is to point out the ways in which the government doesn't have it right. And then the question becomes, is it wrong enough to raise a reasonable doubt? And so I was always happy to do that job. I felt like I was defending a vision of a human Being, which is to say, if you were starting a justice system just to begin with, you would ask the question, okay, how is it, at a minimum, that we think a human being deserves to be treated before she or he is locked in a cell? And that I think of as the system of rights that we have. And so what you're defending, sometimes you're defending a complete bum. Very rarely, you're defending somebody who is actually innocent or legally innocent, which is second best. But at all times, you're defending this idea of how we ought to treat a human being before they're subjected to, you know, this grave punishment that our society imposes on people who have done wrong. So for me, it wasn't especially hard. Rusty, I think, becomes a little surprised at how easy and natural it is to him, but he's thrilled throughout by the idea that, as he puts it, he's now going to have fulfilled every speaking role in the courtroom except the clerk who stands up to yell, hear ye, hear ye.
- [29:16]
Scott Turow
So, Rusty, in the novel, he feels the way you describe it. He feels, like, really alive in the courtroom, but it challenges him on every mental level. And even that anecdote you just shared, it's like you're really dealing with life and death matters are really quite vital to us all. Do you miss that kind of work?
- [29:40]
Interviewee
The short answer is no. And it's not that I didn't enjoy it. It's obvious that the experience is deeply imprinted on me in every way. But, you know, the last case I tried, I tried as a defense lawyer, and the judge threw out the state's case at the close of the prosecution case. That was exactly what he should have done. They had failed to prove their case. And there had been, you know, one very dramatic moment where I had stood up while my partner was cross examining the state's key witness. And I had said, completely out of turn, but completely right. Your Honor, the witness is looking at the case agent before she answers every question she's getting instructed on how to answer by the prosecutors. And, you know, the judge, of course, said, you know, Mr. Turo, you're out of turn. Sit down. And then turned to the witness and said, but he's right. That's exactly what you've been doing. Okay, so we've had this dramatic, right, very triumphant moment. And then the judge flushes the case. He says, you know, I can't give any credibility to this witness. It's not a jury question. No one legally could believe somebody who was clearly getting instructed in her answers by the prosecution. And ergo, I'm dismissing the case. And as I walked out of the courtroom, it's about 10 years ago now, and I. I thought to myself as I left, you know, I really don't need to do this again. And why? You know, first of all, it's rare on the defense side to win, and it's even rarer to win that completely where the judge sort of makes noises and gives the prosecutors the raspberries as he's throwing the case out. But I'd been there and I'd done it. It's a tremendous amount of work. I was the kind of person who always felt trying cases was taking a physical toll on me, just because the amount of stress. And, you know, I was happy to reach the point where I said, I don't know who I've been trying to prove something to, probably myself, but I feel like I've done it and I can let this go. And it wasn't like I was never going to try a case after that if a case to try came along, but it didn't, and I was okay with that. So by the time I finally hung it up for good in. I think it was the. Yeah, it was in 2020, in August of 2020, I was ready to let.
- [32:31]
It go throughout the novel.
- [32:33]
Anya Cain
You know, Rusty's under a tremendous amount.
- [32:35]
Interviewee
Of stress during this trial. I mean, understandably, not only is it a life or death matter for a young man, but that young man is.
- [32:42]
Anya Cain
The son of the woman he loves.
- [32:44]
Interviewee
So it's obviously complicated. And you mentioned the toll that trying cases would take on you. I mean, in your experience as both prosecutor and defense attorney, how would you.
- [32:54]
Anya Cain
Cope with the immense stress of some.
- [32:56]
Interviewee
Of these trials going through that?
- [33:00]
Not particularly well. My ex wife, with whom I'm still pretty close, and we all had Thanksgiving together this year, actually. The existence of Presumed Innocent has to do with how badly I handled the stress of being on trial. I was trying what was the premier case of my career as a prosecutor against a judge who'd been a candidate for the state supreme court was corrupt as the day was long. But it was important to win. This case was very important for my office and what I thought was right in the community and in terms of reforming the legal system there. And I had, at that point in my life, a kind of anemia in which I would become jaundiced when I was under a lot of stress and literally turn yellow. So I was very yellow. And my ex, in order to lure me out of the courtroom, said, you know, What? Why don't you take some time away from the law and finish that novel that you've been dragging around in your briefcase? And of course, that was too tempting to refuse. And thus began the end of my. My prosecutorial career. But, you know, I didn't sleep well. My tendency was to work with. Through every waking hour. You get so deeply involved in. In cases that I remember I was on trial with my beloved and now departed former partner, Dwayne Quaine, and another partner of ours who blessedly is still very much with us, Roger Heinrich. We were trying a civil case, but we weren't. It's like 2:00 in the morning. We're going through the logic of our case, and we realized not only does the other side's case make no sense, neither does ours. And you can sometimes get so deep into that case that you're like, there is no truth. What are we doing?
- [35:25]
Scott Turow
I'm going to repeat a question I think I asked you when we talked about Suspect a couple of years ago. You have so many great stories. You've shared a couple of great anecdotes with us just now. Is there any possibility of you writing a memoir at some point?
- [35:38]
Interviewee
You know, obviously, Kevin, I think about it at this stage, and I would certainly say, the answer is, you know, yes, I would like to do it. You know, a dear friend of mine, Dave Barry, wrote me yesterday and said, you know, I've written a memoir and I'd like you to read it. And I thought, God, I can't wait to read this book. I really want. He's. He's a good friend, and I, you know, I know some of what he's been through, but, you know, I'd love to see the way he presents this on the page. And, you know, I've. I've had some experiences that I think would be worth writing about. So I keep thinking I'm going to do it eventually. But right now I'm thinking about another novel. But sooner or later I'll get there and go, okay, I got to do this or I'll never have the capacity.
- [36:35]
Scott Turow
To do it as long as I'm asking questions that kind of look backward. As a fan of your work, I'm aware that you wrote some short stories in the 70s. You wrote at least one or two novels in the 70s that have never been published. One about rent control. Are those ever going to be published?
- [36:53]
Interviewee
Now, the short answer to the books that were that went unpublished is when I look back and read them to. There was a reason they Went unpublished. And it's not that the rent control book that you. The Rent Strike actually book. It's not that it couldn't have been published at the time, but I look at it now and just think, well, you know, I don't think that was as good as what I wrote subsequently. And I did lift small parts of it. Paragraph here and a paragraph there for, you know, the Laws of Our Fathers, which was the fourth novel I wrote, which was kind of look back at the 60s. But I just, you know, it hurt like hell at the time that the, you know, rent strike book wasn't published. Was, on the other hand, the thing that got me interested in the law because I had to learn about landlord tenant law at that point. And I thought, God, this is really interesting. What's wrong with me? That I would think something like the implied warranty of habitability is really interesting. But I. But I did. So, you know, I. I'm not really one of those people who believes everything happens for a reason, but there is certain cause and effect in a life. And, yeah, it burned like hell when it happened, but, you know, I'm lucky enough to be able to say it turned out. Well, that doesn't mean it would for everybody. You know, there are people who get turned away in the life of the arts who deserve to have some foundational success and just don't and never get a chance to. To write or sculpt or paint or, you know, write the plays that they should write. So I'm not saying it's all a good thing, but for me, that's a. That's a past that I feel like I surmounted.
- [38:55]
I want to turn back to presumed guilty for a second. And one thing, no spoilers, but there's a. There's a huge debate in this book.
- [39:04]
Anya Cain
About, you know, whether or not a.
- [39:05]
Interviewee
Defendant should testify and what best thing. And I'm just curious. That's something we see a lot in, you know, cases we cover. This debate. Can you talk about why that is such a big deal in criminal cases and why it's almost always a terrible idea for a defendant to testify?
- [39:26]
Well, what's difficult about it is what Rusty mentions, which is that according to the statistical studies that have been done, about 70% of acquittals take place in cases where the defendant testifies. The problem, as Rusty acknowledges, is that that doesn't track. And nobody knows how many cases in which the defendant testified where he made conviction more certainly. In other words, who knows where the case was standing before in those other 30% of cases before the defendant got on the stand. The fundamental problem that Rusty recognizes is always your job as a defense lawyer is to remind the jury of the burden of proof and say the prosecution hasn't met it. And no matter how dry and technical that sounds, that's what you're trying to hammer home. And the characters in my novels have always found a way to express that as saying, we just don't know. We just don't know what happened. And so when we don't know what happened, the defendant's entitled to walk out of here. You don't guess and say, maybe she's guilty. We're going to convict her. When a defendant testifies, even though the defense lawyer wants to argue that and say, you know, well, they still didn't prove their case, that the questions, almost inevitably in the way jurors and any other rational person would approach this, it suddenly becomes, is the defendant telling the truth? So in Presumed Guilty, Rusty views the prosecution's case as having sustained a number of mortal blows. Why would you get up there then and shift and shift the focus to, is the defendant telling the truth? And, you know, very often in criminal cases, a defendant has the problem that, you know, that Aaron, the son of B is intended. The problem Aaron has, which is a frequent one, is that he's got, you know, a criminal record and. And a felony conviction. And ordinarily, that doesn't come into evidence, but when you get up to testify in the eyes of the law, it's always relevant that somebody who's testifying has been convicted of a felony because it bears on their credibility. So that's, you know, an additional thing that you drag into the courtroom when the defendant gets on the stand. Very. So, you know, there's a lot that weighs against having a defendant testify. To top it off these days and something that I have never approved of the sentencing guidelines that are in place not only federally, but in many states now, the defendant gets up and testifies, you know, his or her sentence is going to be longer than if she or he had just sat it out, because the rationale is, well, the jury didn't believe you, that's essentially a finding of perjury. So you've committed another crime on top of the one that you've been convicted of. So we're going to enhance your sentence. I think if the Constitution gives you the right to testify, and it does, it gives you the right not to testify and to testify under the Fifth Amendment, then how in the health can you enhance a sentence for Exercising a constitutional right. So that. That. That part bothers me, but that's part of the contemporary logic. And there's another reason, Anya, that it makes it a bad idea for a defendant to get on the stand, ordinarily.
- [43:26]
Scott Turow
Another thing that jumped out of it, jumped out at me in the book, is that one time Rusty describes the trial process and legal process as a slaughterhouse and how it affects innocent people who get too close to that. Can you talk about that and how some people are affected by the legal system even if they're not directly involved in the case?
- [43:48]
Interviewee
Yeah, I mean, I don't think I'd express that in another novel. And yet it is a truth, and it's particularly a truth for the victim family that thinks that, and it's often an illusion, but they think that seeing the defendant convicted, particularly in murder cases, that that will set the world right and put their hearts at ease. When, of course, the truth is the person they mourn will still be gone at the end of the case, no matter what the verdict is. But because they come into the courtroom with such hopes, you know, for the world to be put back in its proper order, you know, they're. They're almost always going to get crushed. And very often what happens, as in this case and in many cases, is it's a tried and true technique of the defense to put the victim on trial and to say, you know, not necessarily she deserved it, but, you know, she put herself in this position. She wasn't a very nice person. And then you've got her parents sitting out there listening to their beloved child getting pilloried, and, you know, it becomes a bloodletting for the victim family, for the defendant's family, of course, that has to live day after day after day with the threat that this person they also love is going to be taken from them for good. That's symbolized and presumed guilty by Bea's. The anxiety she expresses several times, which is, I may never be able to hug my son again. Literally, I may never be able to hug him again once he's accused of this crime. So there's just a lot of damage that goes on in that courtroom. And, you know, the. I think it's my coinage that, you know, that the. The odor of the slaughterhouse emerges from every criminal courtroom because something really brutal is taking place. And that something I always felt really deeply.
- [46:08]
Do you think there's any feasible way of making it a kinder and gentler slaughterhouse, or do you think it's pretty much locked into that because that's just the nature of the system.
- [46:21]
Well, during my very long tenure in the, you know, criminal justice system, a lot has been done to act with greater sympathy toward, you know, victims and their families. So it's, it's, it's. And it's better. You know, the victims now have a right to speak at sentencing. They have rights of consultation with the prosecutors that, believe it or not, when I started out, they were just locked out of the process and had to sit there and watch from the sidelines while a lot of incomprehensible decisions were made. So it's better, but it's not good. The whole litigation process, I always tell the same story about it. I mentioned this big trial with this judge, and he for years had been taking money in fairly sophisticated forms, usually borrowing it from the other party or one of the lawyers saying, well, this is just a loan, which of course he never paid back. But because the law was so equivocal about whether a loan could be a bribe and a. Of course, by now it's well settled that it can be. I also wanted to say it was a fraud. And so I put on all of the people on the other side of these cases to say, well, would you want to know that the guy on the other side had lent the judge $10,000 as the trial was about to start. So one of these cases, the person who had paid the bribe was an art dealer. The victim was an artist who had sued his dealer. And I began to tell him before trial to see whether he'd be willing to testify. I began to tell him what had happened, and he started to shake, you know, literally shake and quake. And I put my hand on his shoulder. I said, bill, I know how horrifying it is to find out that something like that happened, but we're going to set this right. We're going to try to punish this judge. And he said to me, no, no, no, he said, that's not what I'm afraid of. I'm afraid the litigation will have to start again and that he'll have to go through that cruel, heart crushing process all over again. And that, you know, that's the whole system. And I'm.
- [48:59]
In a nutshell, you know, one issue that's also plagued the system traditionally is, you know, equity around race and sort of racism. And that's something I think you've dealt with in a lot of your work and in this book in particular. The defendant, Aaron, is black, and he's being tried in a rural, predominantly white area. And I'M curious, you know, as somebody who's, you know, tried cases and has sort of seen some of that firsthand, you know, like, I guess, what are your thoughts on that and sort of, how did that come into your thinking, your own experiences in this work?
- [49:39]
Well, bearing in mind the unpleasant realities that a disproportionate number of minority people, especially African Americans, end up in our criminal courtrooms, especially our state criminal courtrooms, you know, it's something that's always with you and you know, and, and it's, it's a reality that because a disproportionate number of the people convicted of crimes are, we'll say black because they are. It's. Jurors come into the courtroom and they, whatever inherent racism they, they've been raised with, and it's almost impossible as a white person in this society not to have been raised with some. But when you put it in the criminal context, it's like, well, he's probably guilty because, you know, most people convicted of crimes are the same color as he is. And as Aaron perceives that they are very much, and this is why the title is what it is. They are presumed. They are presumed guilty. And so what the defense lawyer, and Aaron's aware of this, Aaron being the defendant, he's aware of it from the beginning, is that that's, that's weighing against him. By the end of the case, Rusty expresses it to somebody and says, there is no evidence left against this young man except his race. And that's the only way you're going to be able to convict him is because of the color of his skin. But that is the reality. And by the way, it's not the case that it always works against the defendant. I remember trying a case, I thought it was a dead bang fraud case, but the defendant was African American, an educated business person, and not only did he make a good impression, he deserved to make a good impression. But the fraud was obvious. The jury was nonetheless out eight days. And it turned out there was one black woman who was hauled out. And when the judge finally talked to her, she said, you know, your honor, it is so hard for a black man in our society to make something substantial out of himself and his life. It's just, I can't stand to see him brought down, you know, I gotta be convinced beyond any doubt that he's guilty. So it's not, like I said in the way the courtroom works, it's not always to the defendant's disadvantage when they're a minority person, but it's clearly. And that's why the Supreme Court has said you can't try black defendants in particular, and then let the prosecutors systematically strike off every. Every African American from the jury. Because being tried by a jury of one's peers is obviously got to include people who've shared some of your social experience. And, you know, and that's, that's what Aaron is up against. He's in an area where there are very few people who have shared his social experience.
- [53:30]
Scott Turow
Talking about juries and verdicts reminds me, at one point in the book, Rusty mentions that he. I think he's seen some research or something that indicates that roughly 80% of jurors make up their minds right after opening statements. So does it boil down, in some cases, the verdict goes to whatever lawyer is the better storyteller?
- [53:51]
Interviewee
Well, being a really good storyteller helps you a lot in the courtroom. And Rusty points out how hard that fact is on the defendant who wants to say nothing but reasonable doubt, reasonable doubt, reasonable doubt. And yet I was taught by friends of mine who had left the U.S. attorney's office longer before me than I had that you're almost never going to win a case as a defense lawyer unless you've got a really solid theory of defense, which means a good story to tell about how this crime happened that doesn't involve your. Your client's guilt. So, yeah, the narrative, Kevin, really matters in the courtroom. Really matters. And, you know, those statistics, of course, they're. They're recited all the time by jury consultants. I don't know how much recent research goes to reconfirm them, but, you know, jury consultants literally offer their advice by having each side make mock opening statements, and then the jury deliberates. So that'll tell you how much of the process depends on these first impressions.
- [55:18]
Rusty, in general, seems to express some pessimism a little bit at times over, over the jury system, at least, you know, as he's going through jury selection. And I'm curious, do you share that or do you see it as a flawed but ultimately fair system?
- [55:37]
Well, you know, it, it, it can drive you crazy when you talk to a jury after a verdict and they go, oh, yeah, I knew he was guilty. I, I knew he was guilty because, you know, he came to court every day in that powder blue suit, and nobody but a guilty person would wear, you know, would. Would wear a suit like that. It was always my rule of thumb that after jury deliberations went on longer than an hour for each trial day, they would get themselves out of that room by latching on to some entirely irrational conclusion in order to come to a verdict in the case. And that I saw happen far more often than I would have liked. So, you know, the jury system, you know, partakes a lot about democracy in general, which is, you know, as Churchill said, it's really a terrible system, except for all the rest. And, you know, this came home to me when I watched one of these series of judicial corruption cases being tried in front of a judge alone, sitting alone in a bench trial, and he decided to acquit the defendant because he had a novel interpretation of the mail fraud statute that he decided he was going to make a point of by acquitting this defendant. And it was just an obnoxiously egocentric thing to do. And as I said to one of my colleagues afterwards, I said, you know, this is a really good reminder that juries are not the only people who can behave irrationally in this system. And so would you rather have 12 people off the street who come in, for the most part, utterly sincere and deeply, deeply struck by the weighty responsibility of deciding on the liberty of a fellow citizen, you know, or some judge who decides he wants to prove a point to some other judges in the worst possible way? So, you know, it's like, you know, you go back to Churchill.
- [58:05]
Scott Turow
You mentioned before Rusty, of course, his story's been told in your novels. You mentioned the Apple TV show, also the movie with Harrison Ford. Are there differences in storytelling as to what makes a good story when it's in a novel as opposed to a movie or a TV series?
- [58:22]
Interviewee
Well, I mean, Kevin, I would. You know, there are two things that I've always been interested in which the more I see of it, the more I realize I know nothing. And one is moviemaking, and the other is politics. And the truth is the people who are professionals, as opposed to me, who are interested bystanders, really understand what they're doing. And the example I gave before about David Kelly, David's a longtime follower of my novels, and I venture to say he really likes them. But when it comes time to present them for the popular audience that views them when they're on film, which is, frankly, a much broader audience than, unfortunately, the audience who reads books in this country. You have to make certain changes, and you have to broaden it and find other ways to sharpen the drama, I really don't think I am particularly good at that. When it comes to. When it comes to movies. I've written, you know, I've written some scripts over the pilot scripts over the years, but always in collaboration with somebody else because I just. I don't think I've got the. The know how to. To sharpen it in the right ways without somebody going, no, no, no, that. That's not going to work. We got to do it this way.
- [59:57]
Scott Turow
When we talk to you about Suspect, at the end of the interview, I asked any hints as to what you're working on next? And you gave us a little bit of a hint about this novel. So I'm going to try my luck again. Are there any hints about this novel you mentioned that you're thinking of?
- [60:11]
Interviewee
I'm not probably as far along with it as I was when I talked to you after Suspect, but right now I'm thinking about writing a novel that is set retrospectively in the 1950s. In other words, there are characters, contemporary characters, who are looking back and trying to determine whether there was a crime committed. And as. As I'm envisioning this today, there's an old lawyer who, as happens with the elderly, is perusing the, you know, the death notices, and he looks and calls up his. His granddaughter who's, you know, and it may be Pinky from Suspect, and it may be Stern, but he says, I. I need you to look into something for me because I just read a death notice, and I think it's this person who was murdered who I always thought was murdered 50 years ago. And, you know, maybe it's just the same name and same background, but, you know, I got to figure out why I made that mistake 50 years ago because it dramatically altered my perception of the person who'd ordered the killing.
- [61:39]
Scott Turow
That sounds amazing. Yeah, that sounds incredible.
- [61:43]
Interviewee
That's a great hook.
- [61:44]
Scott Turow
I want to read that book now.
- [61:46]
Interviewee
Yeah.
- [61:46]
Also love.
- [61:47]
But really, this is the first market testing I've done of that. That idea, so I'm glad your response is so enthusiastic.
- [61:56]
Scott Turow
That sounds amazing.
- [61:57]
Anya Cain
Yeah.
- [61:58]
Interviewee
Like pinky and stern plus cold case, 1950s.
- [62:01]
That's.
- [62:01]
Yeah, we're locked in.
- [62:04]
Scott Turow
And, of course, he did such a great job writing a novel in the 1940s when you wrote Ordinary Heroes.
- [62:09]
Kevin Greenlee
So.
- [62:09]
Interviewee
Yeah, well, I've always been. I've been. I really have been. Always been fascinated by the 1950s, which, of course, is when I was a child. And so much of what happened has happened in this country in the 70 years since was sort of preordained by the stupidity of the 1950s. And it was not a good time in America, as I look back on it, and almost all of it's been eschewed and Nobody today would look back and go, I want to go back to those times. So. And a lot of the changes that have come have come in response to how stupidly we were living. Then.
- [62:58]
I wanted to ask you.
- [63:00]
Scott Turow
Well, I said I'm really excited about it and hopefully in two or three years we can talk about it.
- [63:05]
Interviewee
Yeah, well, you, you've been the first to know, so exclusive.
- [63:12]
I wanted to just ask you, is there anything we didn't ask you about that you wanted to mention or just wanted to say?
- [63:18]
No. I think you guys, you know, not surprisingly, have done a really good job. And, you know, you've done it before and you've done it again. But, you know, it's, it's a lot more rewarding for the novelist to do this kind of interview where people have read the work and thought about it instead of saying, well, Scott, it is Scott. Right. Tell us what this book is about.
- [63:53]
We really appreciate that. That means a lot.
- [63:58]
Interviewer is a gift to the author.
- [64:01]
Scott Turow
It's an amazing book. I think it's the best of the Rusty books.
- [64:06]
Anya Cain
I love Rusty.
- [64:07]
Interviewee
And so, yeah, it was really very satisfying book to read.
- [64:11]
Absolutely. Yeah. Well, thank you both. I'm always grateful for your attention.
- [64:15]
Scott Turow
So thanks, thank you for taking the time.
- [64:18]
Interviewee
Thank you so much.
- [64:19]
Anya Cain
Thanks so much to Scott Turo for taking the time to speak with us. We strongly recommend checking out Presumed Guilty and frankly, all of his other books and we'll include links to those in our show notes.
- [64:38]
Kevin Greenlee
Thanks so much for listening to the Murder Sheet. If you have a tip concerning one of the cases we cover, please email us@murdersheetmail.com. if you have actionable information about an unsolved crime, please report it to the appropriate authorities.
- [64:59]
Anya Cain
If you're interested in joining our Patreon, that's available at www.patreon.com murdersheet if you want to tip us a bit of money for records requests, you can do so at www. Buymeacoffee.com murdersheet. We very much appreciate any support.
- [65:22]
Kevin Greenlee
Special thanks to Kevin Tyler Greenlee, who composed the music for the Murder Sheet and who you can find on the web@kevintg.com if you're looking to talk with.
- [65:34]
Anya Cain
Other listeners about a case we've covered, you can join the Murder Sheet discussion group on Facebook. We mostly focus our time on research and reporting, so we're not on social media much. We do try to check our email account, but we ask for patience as we often receive a lot of messages. Thanks again for listening.
- [66:03]
Kevin Greenlee
Can we talk A little bit before we go about quints, a great new sponsor for us. I think in one of the ads that we've already done for them, we talked about the compliments I'm getting on my jacket. I know you're a very modest woman, but can we talk about the compliments you're getting on the quint products you wear?
- [66:22]
Anya Cain
Yeah, I've got two of their Mongolian cashmere sweaters. They're a brand that just does this sort of luxurious products but without the crazy costs, really. Well, they are. They give you Italian leather handbags. They do like European linen sheets. You have a really cool suede jacket. And I really like the way I look in my sweaters. I like the way you look in your bomber jacket. It looks super cool.
- [66:47]
Kevin Greenlee
You've gotten a lot of compliments when you go out wearing these sweaters.
- [66:50]
Anya Cain
I think I have, yeah.
- [66:52]
Kevin Greenlee
And deservedly so.
- [66:53]
Anya Cain
Also, like, I'm one of those people, my skin is very like, you know, like I, I kind of sensitive. So when it comes to wearing sweaters, like, you know, sometimes it's something's too scratchy, like it, it really bothers me. These are so soft. They're just like very delicate and soft and make it. They're wearing them is lovely because they're super comfortable. You're not, you're not. It's not one of those things where you're like, you buy it and it.
- [67:14]
Interviewee
Looks great, but it doesn't feel that great.
- [67:16]
Anya Cain
They look great. They feel great. Yeah. I really love them.
- [67:19]
Interviewee
And you got, you know, your cool jacket.
- [67:21]
Anya Cain
I mean that's a little bit of a. You're the guy who like wears the same thing all the time. So this was a bit of a gamble for you, a bit of a risk. You got something a bit different.
- [67:29]
Kevin Greenlee
I do wash my clothes.
- [67:30]
Anya Cain
I know you wash your clothes, but I mean, you're filthy.
- [67:34]
Kevin Greenlee
You made me sound awful, so. No, I wash my clothes.
- [67:37]
Anya Cain
But you don't really.
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Kevin Greenlee
I launder them.
- [67:39]
Anya Cain
You don't really experiment with fashion that much is what I'm saying. So this is a little bit out of the norm for you, but I.
- [67:44]
Interviewee
Think you really like it and it looks good.
- [67:46]
Kevin Greenlee
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- [67:48]
Anya Cain
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Kevin Greenlee
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Anya Cain
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- [68:09]
Kevin Greenlee
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- [68:17]
Interviewee
Via is pretty much, I guess you'd.
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Anya Cain
Say, the only lifestyle hemp brand out there. So what does that mean? It means that they're all about crafting different products to elicit different moods. Kevin and I really like their non thc CBD products. Specifically. Zen really helps me fall asleep some. Zen can really just kind of help me get more into that state where I can relax and fall asleep pretty easily. And they're just. They've been such a wonderful support to us. They're a longtime sponsor. We really love working with them and they really make the show possible. I'm going to say this like, you may not realize this, but when you support our sponsors, you're supporting us and it kind of makes us impossible for us to do the show. So if you or one of your loved ones is interested in trying some of this stuff, you're going to get a great deal. It's very high, high quality, high value.
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Kevin Greenlee
Anya, if I wanted to get this discount you speak of, what do I do?
- [69:07]
Anya Cain
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- [69:36]
Kevin Greenlee
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- [69:43]
Anya Cain
Yeah. Thanks so much to Acorn. When you support our sponsors, you're supporting us, and our sponsors make it possible for us to do this job. So we really appreciate them.
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Kevin Greenlee
We love our sponsors.
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Anya Cain
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Kevin Greenlee
That can seem daunting.
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Interviewee
It.
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Anya Cain
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