A Talk with ISP Forensic Genealogist Bradley Marchant Part Two: The First Person That Knows

Summary

---

Murder Sheet – "A Talk with ISP Forensic Genealogist Bradley Marchant Part Two: The First Person That Knows"

Date: March 31, 2026
Guests: Áine Cain (Host), Kevin Greenlee (Host), Bradley Marchant (Indiana State Police Forensic Genealogist)
Theme: The complex and crucial role of forensic genetic genealogy (FIG) in solving cold cases, exonerating the innocent, and balancing ethics and privacy in modern investigations.

---

Episode Overview

In this in-depth conversation, journalist Áine Cain and attorney Kevin Greenlee continue their interview with Bradley Marchant, a forensic genealogist with the Indiana State Police (ISP). Marchant offers a behind-the-scenes look at how DNA and family trees are used to unearth the truth in murder cases, exonerate wrongfully convicted individuals, and restore identities to the unidentified dead. He also explores the emotional and ethical considerations involved in working with highly personal genetic data.

---

Key Discussion Points & Insights

How Cases Are Investigated with FIG

• Building Family Trees from DNA Matches

  • Marchant explains how law enforcement uses DNA matches from third or distant cousins to construct family trees that lead to potential suspects, victims, or unidentified remains (Jane/John Does).
  • “Let’s say Kevin turns out to be the brother to a serial killer...He hadn’t taken a DNA test, but let’s say his third cousins had taken it and led us to Kevin...” (04:00)
  • In most cases, close relatives are not directly contacted unless absolutely necessary to confirm a lead or obtain a DNA sample for comparison.

• Garbage Pulls & Direct DNA Collection

  • Though the media suggests police routinely retrieve DNA from discarded items (“garbage pulls”), Marchant clarifies this is not standard practice and happens only in select situations.
  • Investigation relies on a careful combination of genetic data and corroborating evidence—DNA alone is never the only reason for an arrest or indictment. (05:56)

FIG for Exonerations

• FIG is also wielded to free the wrongfully convicted: “As fig gets bigger and bigger, I think we’re going to see it be used more and more for exonerations.” (06:11)

Adoptees, Family Secrets, and Unexpected Discoveries

• Adoptees are a significant group in DNA databases, often seeking their own biological roots, which can both help and complicate casework.
• Challenges: Adoption and unknown parentage can create “brick walls” in building accurate trees, especially if individuals are unaware of their own adoption or their real parentage.
  • Memorable anecdote: Marchant describes working on a case where a maternal adoption or a “baby switched at birth” was evident, but he purposely avoided contacting the involved individual to prevent trauma. (11:10–12:27)
• Approach to Privacy: The ISP team actively chooses not to contact individuals where revealing unexpected familial truths risks disruption or harm.
  • “...decided to shelve that person. I’m not going to pursue that family tree any further because contacting her might be traumatic and disrupt her life.” (12:07)

Database Limitations, Trust, and Privacy

• The potential for solving cases is proportional to the size of the DNA database, which is smaller than major consumer sites (e.g., Ancestry or 23andMe).
• Building Trust: Marchant emphasizes ISPs commitment to privacy—case DNA profiles are deleted once solved, and strict ethical standards exceed federal requirements.
  • “Once the case is solved, we actually delete the information.” (45:52)

The Thrill and Burden of Being “The First Person Who Knows” (19:16–20:21)

• Memorable moment: Marchant shares the emotional experience of being the first to crack a major case—sometimes after hours, with no one to tell due to confidentiality.
  • “I want to tell somebody within seconds, but of course, I can’t...” (19:19)
  • He likens case announcements to sharing a child’s art project with a parent: “...that’s my kid that did that.” (20:17)
  • Genealogists rarely receive public recognition, despite being pivotal in resolving high-profile or long-neglected cases.

Assigning Cases – Difficulty, Language Skills, and “Brick Walls” (24:02–27:18)

• Marchant doesn’t choose his cases; the most difficult cases often go to him due to his extensive experience and ability to research in 7–8 languages.
• Cases are assigned by the needs of the lab and consulting with police investigators.
• Some cases linger for years due to poor-quality DNA and need multiple rounds of testing.

“Target Testing” and Minimizing Intrusion (27:18–35:56)

• “Target testing” helps pinpoint a specific lineage within a tree if the relationship isn’t clear—using voluntary DNA tests from more closely related family members.
• FIG has reduced the impact on the public compared to earlier methods, which required hundreds of unrelated people to be tested:
  • Golden State Killer case required “about 300 people” (29:50); with FIG, that number has dropped to a handful.
• Success is defined by how little disruption is caused outside the person of interest:
  • “As much as possible, we don't want to target test. We want to be least disruptive as possible.” (35:25)

Engaged Public and “Crime Scene Enthusiasts” (35:56–37:13)

• Some contacted individuals relish the chance to help, seeing themselves as part of a “CSI episode”—sometimes they directly supply crucial info.
  • “She said, ‘I want to do what you do. I want to solve these cases.’ And I said, well, actually, you are a part of that right now.” (36:20)
• Hosts emphasize: any listener's DNA could play a key role in solving a case.

Emotional Impact and Legacy (38:03–45:11)

• Marchant views genealogy as his “superpower” and has helped numerous people find relatives, leading to profound emotional reactions.
  • “One person burst into tears because I found out where her family came from in Norway...she’d been looking for 50 years.” (38:26)
• The emotional impact extends to families of the missing and murdered: offering closure and healing for those who thought they’d never get answers.
  • “Just to know that I’m able to provide, you know, some closure...I know it’s healing.” (40:05)
• The work is unique—solving crimes by day, gardening at night (“my garden during the day...at night, I’m solving crimes”). (44:43)

Strict Ethical Practices

• Privacy first: After a case is solved, all DNA and identifying information used in the investigation is deleted from law enforcement databases.
  • “Once the case is solved, we actually delete the information...” (45:52)
• Standards at Indiana State Police exceed federal guidelines. ISPs do not upload to consumer sites like MyHeritage; privacy protocols are set before cases are opened.
• The potential for legacy: DNA uploaded by deceased individuals continues to help solve cases—sometimes years after their death. (50:07–50:59)
  • “If she is somewhere that she knows what's going on, I kind of think that she'd be thrilled knowing she's solving a genealogy mystery and she's not even on this earth anymore.” (50:48)

---

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

“I get to be the first person, you know, like, I get to see it and I see, oh, the family trees are all combining and it's all looking like it's this one person. And I'm the first one.”
—Bradley Marchant, (19:16)

“Our goal is to keep it as anonymous as possible...The more that we build trust, the faster things are going to go.”
—Bradley Marchant, (17:18/49:50)

“Every case is completely different. But you know, it's exciting and I love being that kind of first person that knows.”
—Bradley Marchant, (21:40)

“...decided to shelve that person. I'm not going to pursue that family tree any further because contacting her might be traumatic and disrupt her life...”
—Bradley Marchant, (12:07)

“Sometimes I say, this is really good genealogy that I'm doing...it's like I sometimes I say, this is really good genealogy and no one's ever going to see it but me.”
—Bradley Marchant, (46:25)

“Your DNA could solve it...And maybe you'll never know that your DNA was the part that solved that crime.”
—Bradley Marchant, (37:17)

---

Timestamps for Important Segments

• [01:44] – Genealogy tree-building and case examples
• [04:00] – Pathways to identify people via distant DNA matches
• [05:56] – Use of DNA for both identification and exoneration
• [11:10] – Adoption and family secrets in investigation
• [12:07] – Team's ethical approach to privacy and minimizing trauma
• [17:18] – Scope of ISP work and privacy protections
• [19:16] – The thrill and frustration of being the “first to know”
• [23:46] – How cases are assigned, need for diverse skills
• [27:18] – Target testing and reducing public intrusion
• [35:56] – Crime enthusiasts as accidental contributors to cases
• [37:17] – Power of unknowing public involvement
• [40:05] – Closure and healing for families
• [45:52] – Deleting DNA data post-case, privacy practices
• [50:07] – Legacy & the lasting influence of DNA in solving cases

---

Summary / Takeaway

This episode underscores the profound impact of forensic genetic genealogy—both in criminal justice and reuniting families—in a manner that is deeply personal, methodical, and ethically conscious. Bradley Marchant gives listeners rare insight into the painstaking, sensitive, and sometimes lonely work of unmasking decades-old truths. Listeners are encouraged to see themselves as part of a broader movement: every DNA kit taken and uploaded might help close a cold case or clear an innocent person. Through rigorous privacy protections and an abiding respect for the living and the dead, the Indiana State Police’s genealogy team is quietly changing countless lives, one case at a time.

Transcript

[A]

The Bleacher Report app is your destination for sports right now. The NBA is heating up, March Madness is here, and MLB is almost back. Every day there's a new headline, a new highlight, a new moment you've got to see for yourself. That's why I stay locked in with the Bleacher Report app. For me, it's about staying connected to my sports. I can follow the teams I care about, get real time, scores, breaking news and highlights all in one place. Download the Bleacher Report app today so you never miss a moment.

[B]

I'm Kevin, and today we will be continuing our conversation with one of the key players on Indiana State Police's new DNA genealogy team Content warning. This episode contains discussion of murder.

[C]

In this episode, we will be concluding our talk with Bradley Marchant, who is a key member of the Indiana State Police's new Forensic Investigative Genetic Genealogy, or fig, unit. Today he will discuss more of the details of his work, including the challenges posed by dealing with cases where he uncovers family secrets. My name is Anya Cain. I'm a journalist.

[B]

And I'm Kevin Greenlee. I'm an attorney.

[C]

And this is the Murder Sheet.

[B]

We're a true crime podcast focused on original reporting, interviews, and deep dives into murder cases.

[C]

We're the Murder Sheet.

[B]

And this is a talk with ISP forensic genealogist Bradley Marchant. Part two, the first person that knows.

[D]

Sam. So. So we have this vast network of family trees that we put together. And let's say. Let's say, you know, let's say now let's change it. Let's say that Kevin turns out to be, I don't know, the brother to a serial killer.

[C]

What is with your family?

[D]

I know Kevin's just causing trouble right and left with his family tree, but let's say he's a he. He hadn't taken a DNA test, but let's say his third cousins had taken it and led us to Kevin. And we thought, okay, Kevin, someone potentially close to his family, is a serial killer or maybe is a John Doe, something like that. I guess a John Doe is maybe a nicer situation related to than a serial killer. But we might have to say, hey, we think it might be Kevin's brother who is deceased. Okay, he was in the right place at the right time, and he maybe was a troublemaker in the past or something like that. So our theory is it's Kevin's brother. Kevin might be contacted to provide DNA, which would then go back to that original CODIS test, which would then say, okay, a brother To Kevin is like a full brother. To Kevin is the person of interest, the John Doe, the serial killer, whatever we're saying. So he would be contacted by the investigator to be a part of the case. That is kind of like the only times that someone that is a close relative of the person has ever contacted closely. That's, that's they have the answers because they have the answer, you know, and there's a lot of people that think that the police just go around testing people's trash for DNA and things like that. It does happen on occasion, but it's not as often as you think it's going to be happening in a situation where maybe we did think it was, you know, a serial killer closely related to Kevin. Rather than approach Kevin directly, we might, the police might do a garbage poll where they might go and find his brother, where his brother's living, maybe tail him or something like that. Some of these cases you do hear about that it does happen. I'm not going to deny that it happens on occasion, but in general it's not, that's not the route that we take. It's usually, you know, a different route. But because some of These cases are 50 year old murder cases, a lot of times the, the suspect is not alive. And so sometimes we have to go and do some more investigating, find a closer relative. One other kind of fact that a lot of your listeners might not be aware of, DNA alone is never going to be the sole reason why somebody is investigated. Because let's say I do think it's Kevin's brother, you know, and I say, oh, it's got to be Kevin's brother, you know, he was in the right place at the right time. That would be another bit of investigation that the investigator would do and they'd say, oh, you know, he was in the right place at the right time and you know, he drove a green Volvo, you know, the same as the as had been seen in the reports. And he also, you know, had a history of other small run ins with the police. So those kinds of things that would all build that case before any trial was done. But you know, know, another thing to think about is forensic genetic genealogy is actually being used to exonerate people too.

[C]

Right?

[D]

That's true. So like there are cases of people who have been wrongly imprisoned, who have been freed. So if, if that's a motivation for people, that's a really strong motivation too because maybe one of your relatives has been falsely imprisoned. And so I think as FIG gets, we call it fig, forensic investigative Genetic genealogy, as fig gets bigger and bigger, I think we're going to see it be used more and more for exonerations. And I think, I think we're going to. I think as it keeps growing, I think we're just going to see cases solved right and left where some of our cases don't even really make the press. Yeah, and sometimes they make the press, but then they don't mention genetic genealogy was a part of it because maybe the. Maybe the person investigating didn't mention that to the reporters, or maybe the reporters didn't care. But some of our cases haven't even, you know, we don't always get the recognition of, you know, when we work on these cases.

[C]

But you should. I mean, it's so important. And all this talk of Kevin's brother, I think Kevin Tyler Greenleaf is about to get some heat on him.

[D]

Yeah, we're investigating him actively at this point.

[C]

His posters all around here.

[D]

Yeah, we just. Yeah, we just want to get that guy. You know, we just know. No, Kevin's.

[C]

Kevin's kind of a nightmare for you guys because Kevin is an adoptee, so he'd be throwing off your family tree.

[D]

Yeah. So. Well, and in that case, I mean, actually there have been situations. Just recently we had a case that did involve an adoptee who was a missing person. And so that just kind of added to the layers and it explained why that particular case took so long because it. It was much more. Much more in depth of research. Now, one thing I will say is that I talk about the adoption cases as being tricky. You know, a lot of adoptees, we end up getting. We end up finding a lot of people who are adoptees or whose recent family trees has an adoptee because one of the top groups of people taking DNA tests are actually adoptees because they want to find their biological family. Because, you know, back in the Stone Ages, when I. So to give you perspective of how long I've been doing genealogy, when I started to do genealogy, there were no real records online. So like now on Ancestry.com and FamilySearch, you can get census and birth, marriage and death records. Back when I started, none of that was online. Most of these websites were very small. They didn't have a lot of records. And so, as I said, it's basically the Stone Ages. But, you know, in the past, for an adoptee to find their biological family, it usually involved court cases. Every state has different laws. So some states, I think it's the state of New York that you cannot access your adoption records until 100 years after your birth and other states, it's pretty much closed permanently without a court order. Sometimes the court order only gets you non identifying information. But nowadays, you know, you don't have to do that. An adoptee can actually just take their, you know, take their own saliva and take a test and start building that family tree. So we do actually come across a decent amount of people who are adoptees because they are uploading to these different databases in order to find their family. So it's really not unheard of for us to, you know, be working on a case and then we come into a roadblock. So, you know, if I, if I'm researching a family and I say, okay, well, I know that they're all Italian, I'm looking for an Italian family because all the matches are Italian. And then I start working on one person's family and I see absolutely no Italians, but they are closely related to Italian cousins. Then I kind of start looking at it and I say, okay, let me figure this out. And then I might actually learn, okay, this person had to have been an adoptee, you know, where they. And maybe that person doesn't know it, you know, or maybe they do know it, but they just haven't pursued their biological family. I will say that part of our, part of our work here at the Indiana State Police, there was, there was a case. I'm not going to name names or anything, but I did work on a case where it was pretty clear when I was working on the family tree that the maternal side of the family involved some sort of something where there was an adopt adoption that maybe wasn't known or a baby switched at birth. I'm not really sure what was going on, but it was really clear that that happened. This was one of the rare cases where I was speaking to the person and luckily we had to work with the paternal side. So the paternal side is where we had to go to find the common connection. But as I was building the full family tree, I noticed that there were a lot of oddities going on. We did not discuss that with the individual because we don't know what that person knows. So as I said, we keep information as private as possible because we don't want to disrupt anybody's life, but that it does happen. So anybody that's taken an ancestry test, you might be contacted by somebody who says, like, I'm an adoptee, I'm looking for my family. Can you tell me about where your family is from? It looks like we might be second or third cousins. So it's the same process, but in general we don't contact people about it. But yeah, but yeah, some of my co workers, we will. Just this week I actually was working on one that I'm pretty positive the person's an adoptee and there's no indication in her family tree that she's aware that this is going on. And so I've decided to shelve that person. I'm not going to pursue that family tree any further because in order to get anywhere I'd have to contact her and because contacting her might traumatic and disrupt her life, I'm not going to do it. So. So in that case we are just moving on to the next DNA matches and hopefully we can solve it without, you know, reaching out to this particular person. And. But it is, it is pretty clear that something's not quite right with her family tree. But yeah, you know, and that happens and maybe she knows she's adopted and.

[C]

But you can't, you don't know either way.

[D]

We don't know either way and we're just not, we're just not going to pursue that. So that is a common struggle in any kind of family history project. But you know, it would probably be very different if we had the same amount of people in our DNA match lists as you would find on somewhere like Ancestry or 23andMe, but our list is considerably smaller because it's coming from, you know, a different database where somebody has to actively upload it in order to, to be a part of this. And so, you know, I would love if we had, I think ancestry.com is up to like 15, 18 million people that have taken a DNA test and maybe it's even more at this point. So if anybody at Ancestry is overhearing this and I got those numbers wrong, I apologize. I don't have those numbers in front of me. But you know, it's the largest DNA test in the world and it would be amazing if we had that many people accessible in our database, but we have considerably fewer. But you know, hopefully we can expand that with time and as people begin to learn about this. And we also want to build trust with people to know that we are being as responsible as we can with their DNA.

[C]

Enough with over complicating your wardrobe. Stop buying trendy cheap stuff that doesn't last. Curate your style with high quality pieces that you can mix and match. Our wonderful sponsor Quince can help you out with that.

[B]

They are all about accessible luxury. These are the premium everyday essentials that you can wear all the time, even as the seasons change.

[C]

We love their comfortable, lightweight Mongolian cashmere sweaters. They're perfect for spring. We're also excited to try out their linen bottoms and shorts and European jersey linen T shirts.

[B]

Not only will you be getting high quality clothing for less, it's also important to know that Quint's only pair with ethical factories and artisans that set rigorous standards for craftsmanship. They save you money by cutting out the middlemen.

[C]

Quince's wonderful silk pieces have been some of my go tos this year. I love their black washable silk dress and black washable silk skirt. They elevate my style while being so easy to wash and maintain and pair with other clothes.

[B]

Right now go to quince.commsheet for free shipping and 365 day returns. That is a full year to build your wardrobe and love it. And you will. It's now available in Canada too. Don't keep settling for clothes that don't last. Go to Q U I n c e.com msheet for free shipping and 365 day returns. Wince.com msheet when we started the Murder

[C]

Sheet, we didn't really know if podcasting was even going to work out for us in the long run. Like, what if no one listens to us? That would be awkward. I'm really glad we tuned out those doubts and went for it because it's been an absolute dream come true. But the kind of uncertainty we face is what stops people from betting on themselves, chasing their dreams and starting their own businesses.

[B]

For all of you out there looking to kickstart your own dreams, partnering with Shopify is one of the best decisions you can make. It gets you on the right track from day one. They take the uncertainty out of business.

[C]

Shopify is your one stop commerce platform that supports millions of businesses around the world.

[B]

Shopify makes you efficient and fast. You can upload new products, improve existing products. Shopify's AI tools can help you with product descriptions, page headlines, and better product photography.

[C]

And don't worry about nobody buying your products. They help you get the word out. Shopify puts the power of a whole marketing team behind you. You can create email and social media campaigns with just a few clicks.

[B]

Shopify supports you with inventory management, international shipping, processing returns and more. Whatever the challenge, they're there to make things quicker and more convenient. It's time to turn those what ifs into with Shopify today. Sign up for your $1 per month trial today at shopify.commsheet Go to shopify.commsheet that's shopify.commsheet

[D]

that's my cat, Lulu. She's perfectly healthy, but I'm not waiting for issues to pop up. I'm feeding her new Purino one whole body support. Proactive nutrition, supporting her five key systems. It's Purino One's most advanced formula, helping us stay ahead at mealtime so we can stay ahead for a lifetime.

[A]

Purina one a difference from day one. Try new Purina One whole body support. Just say alexa, add to cart.

[D]

Alexa, add to cart. And, you know, we don't want to disrupt your life. We want to keep, keep, keep, keep it as anonymous as possible to keep you from, you know, having your life disrupted in any way or bothered in any way. Yeah. You know, and, but the more, the more I talk to genealogists that are friends with mind, the more I find out just how many people, you know, because we're not the only state that does this, you know, and we're not the only group that does this. And I, I have heard about, you know, a handful of my distant relatives who have, have distant relatives, friends, acquaintances have said, like, oh, yeah, you know, like, I, I heard somebody messaged me and said that there's a, you know, that there's a connection to a cold case, you know, and then they thought maybe I was involved in it and I had to explain, explain, you know, I only do Indiana State Police cases. And so I'm not affiliated with, you know, if the FBI is working on something or if, you know, the police agency in California, I'm not affiliated with them, so. Right. But yeah, there are cases being solved all over the country. And, you know, it's pretty fascinating when you see how many are getting solved. And for me, I've been an enthusiast in like, Jane and John Doe cases for years. So actually seeing some of them getting solved, some of them I know about, you know, and actually some of the cases that I've been approached with here at the Indiana State Police are some that I've read about in the past, which is even cooler because as, as the, you know, if I'm the genealogist assigned to that case officially, I'm the first person that really gets to find out it out. So let's say it is a serial killer. I'm the first person, you know, like, I get to see it and I see, oh, the family trees are all combining and it's all looking like it's this one person. And I'm the first one I'm so jealous.

[C]

That is so. That must be such a cool feeling.

[D]

Yes, but what usually happens is it happens after everybody's gone home. So then I have to sit on that information either over the weekend or overnight. And then my enthusiasm has died down considerably the next day when I'm like, you know, like, I'm still excited about it, but, you know, I want to tell somebody within seconds, but of course, I can't, you know, always if somebody's not here to listen. And unlike other genealogy mysteries that I solve, where I usually call my mom and tell her about what I found, the privacy is so important that, like, my immediate family, family, they don't know about the cases that I'm doing. So I can't. I don't call my mom and tell her that I solved a case. And nobody knows which cases I'm working on. Even those that, you know, I talk to on a daily basis, they might ask me, oh, what are you working on? I say, well, there's a Jane Doe. And then that's all I can say. She was found a long time ago somewhere here in Indiana.

[C]

Gotta keep it vague.

[D]

Yeah, very vague. And so my family knows not to even bother because I'm not going to be able to tell them anything. But if there is one that is announced in the papers, then I'm really quick to let my kids know and my parents know. My mom in particular gets excited. It's kind of like her way of, like, you know, like when you're a little kid and you give your mom an art school project that you can put on the refrigerator. So I'm pretty sure that my mom's probably printed out a couple of those articles to just kind of say, like, like, oh, look, you know, it says the Indiana State Police solved this. And, like, that's my kid that did that, you know, so I love that. And so, you know, there. There's not a whole lot of, like, you know, genealogists tend to kind of be nerdy people, and I'm including myself in that, in that categorization. So for me to solve something that, you know, actually makes the press, you know, it's. It's kind of cool. And. And then I get to share and. And sometimes I give little tidbits about what it was like researching, like, oh, that one took forever. And, you know, there were three adoptees that I had to work through their family trees. And a whole lot of. We also have, in genealogy, we call them brick walls, just, like, where something's really difficult, like, you know, maybe Somebody had a name change or they came from another country, you know, and I have had to solve immigrants, you know, where, where did that immigrant ancestor come from in order to go one or two more generations back to find that common ancestor and then take all those descendants down. And so every case is, is completely different. But you know, it's, it's exciting and I, I love being that kind of first person person that knows. That's so cool, you know, like I get so excited and then, you know, it literally, the last one literally happened. I think it was five minutes after all my co workers had left for the evening because I tend to work a little later and everybody had gone and I just was, I was, ah, it's just, it just kills me because I want to just scream and say like, I did it, you know, I found this person. Like Eureka. We, we got a lead on this case. And so, and then as I mentioned, you know, they have to do a final test. So they will test either that individual or close relative. But that usually takes, you know, a couple weeks because we write a report, send it to the investigator, the investigator goes out and does what he or she has to do. But by that point, I mean, I'm pretty convinced that I've found the right person. And so far all those that I've said it is this person, I have actually been correct. In fact, we had one case once again, speaking in generalities, but we, we, I had narrowed it down to, it was two individuals and we were looking for the parents of somebody and I, I had narrowed it down. I said, well, you know, it's one of these three brothers. But I think it was this one brother, you know, and I even was right about that theory with the one brother. So, you know, so pat on the back for me, that's amazing.

[C]

I mean, but it's making such a big difference in terms of these cases getting solved and it's incredible. And I just, I do want to ask you about one aspect of these cases.

[D]

Yeah, sure.

[C]

Are you assigned them or do you get to pick? And the follow up to that is are you able to ever be like, oh, suggest on like testing for them to do the DNA? Or is that more of the realm of the forensic science?

[D]

So I wish I could get to choose, but I don't get to choose them. What? It kind of comes down to a lot of things. So the Indiana State Police FIG team, you know, my team that, that does genetic genealogy, they, they get information on cases from the entire state. So this is available for all if There are any law enforcement people listening here in Indiana, our team is available for anybody in the state, and it does not cost that individual police agency further, further money by utilizing us. So. So one of my cases right now, it's a small, small town I've never heard of, and they've had this cold case for, you know, let's say 20 years. And we're working with them, you know, but we get leads and information about different cases. We start putting it on a spreadsheet of here's possible cases for us to do. We then have to reach out to whoever is the investigator. One of our cases, I'm just going to say, was so old that it did not have an active investigator as part of the case. Because it's so old, it's like on paper, they had to investigate to even figure out who. Who had jurisdiction over it officially because it's such an old case. And this case in particular, they said, well, you know, we'll just assign it to somebody so that then you have somebody that it's that that is over it. The investigator has to sign paperwork to acknowledge that we're going to be doing this, and then it gets assigned to different people on our team. And because I have the most experience in genealogy, sometimes I'm given the most difficult cases. And that's fine by me because I actually love a really difficult case. No matter how often I complain about it. I get really. It's boring working on the straightforward, easy ones. You know, I prefer something that's a little bit more, you know, like, got some meat on their bones, and it's a little trickier. I'm also a. I also work in seven or eight different languages. I'm not saying that to, like, brag. It's just a fact. I research in a lot of different languages. So you're a polyglot? Well, I'm genealogically fluent when it comes to a lot of languages, but I don't have a lot of. I don't have official language training in a lot of them, but one of my specialties is in Nordic. Nordic countries. But so far, I haven't gotten to use any of my Nordic abilities really here in the state of Indiana. For these cases, I actually had one tree that did have Nordic in the ancestry, but I knew that that Nordic was not the ancestry of interest for it, so I had to actually ignore that part. And that kind of killed me a little bit on the inside because I do love researching Swedish and Finnish and Icelandic family trees. But, you know, but that being said, so sometimes we. Now I forget where I was going with that thought process.

[C]

I think we were talking about picking cases.

[D]

Oh, picking cases. So I tend to get some of the more difficult cases, but because I do a lot of foreign languages, if there is a case that is known to be a foreign language right off the bat. So we have, you know, as I said, we've had a few cases in Latin America and because I speak Spanish and read Spanish and I've been trained in Latin American research, I tend to get those. But if a co worker of mine was getting a case like that, then I could be used as a consultant for that, of course. But as far as getting, getting to choose cases, sometimes we're consulted about whether a case would be a good case for fig, but we don't, we're not the ones actively going around and looking for those cases. So here in the Indiana State Police crime lab we have different forensic scientists. Some of them remember cases that they worked on. We have a few co workers that bring up cases. They say, well, what about this case? You know, I worked on it a few years ago, is this a potential good fit? And so sometimes we actively. I've done some phone calls to police agencies and I've talked to the investigator and I've said, you know, hey, we're, we're kind of thinking about doing FIG for this case. What is your thought process on it? We have yet to have any investigators say no. Sometimes they say yes, but then in one case we actually had somebody say yes and then within two weeks we actually had a CODIS hit. So that didn't go to FIG because we got a CODIS hit. In other cases we've had people say yes and we have put them on our list, but we haven't gotten to their case yet. And then other cases we, you know, they say yes and we've moved on forward. And some of it also affects with the quality of the DNA, you know. So we had a recent case that has been on, it's actually been an ongoing FIG case for several years. The quality of the DNA initially was really bad. So then they had to get another sample and work it again in order to trifig for a second time. And actually on the second time we were successful. We were able to get a good enough profile that we were able to find the missing person's relatives. And then that report is actually currently with the coroner and we're waiting for the official, kind of the official stamp of approval that that person is, is the person that we have identified and so on occasion, you know, when, when we've talked about, when I was talking about the process, when we get to a point where maybe we feel like we're getting on the right track or we want to find out if we're on the right track or find out if we're on the wrong track, we do something called target testing. So on occasion, we will send an investigator out to specific individuals who are part of that family tree. And we want to say, is this a closer relative or maybe a farther relative? Usually they're going to be about a second or third cousin at the closest, and we will have an investigator go and do a target test. And that is a voluntary test here at the Indiana State Police. We actually give them their own family tree DNA kit. So it's their own, their own kit. They get to be in control of that kit. It's just a regular DNA test that they would do if they purchased it online and had it ordered for Mother's Day. You know, it's the same kit, and then they are in charge of that kit. So it's kind of like getting a free DNA test. Actually, that's not the same kit as if we believed that that person was a close, close relative. We would do a different type of test for that. But if we think it's like a second or third cousin and we're trying to narrow that family tree a little bit in, then we will do a target test. And one thing I will say is that FIG actually has fewer target tests than past cases. So the Golden State Killer, if you've probably heard of that case, it was a big case back in 2018, and the first really big publicized case that used FIG. Prior to FIG, I think it was somewhere like 300. People had to be tested with the STR test to rule them out as possible individuals. But with fig, I mean, that number goes down dramatically. You know, most, I would say, let's say I've done 10 cases so far. I think only three or four of them have had to go to target testing. And usually it's two to three individuals. So we're talking about a much smaller amount of people than in traditional investigations. So FIG is actually less intrusive into other people's lives. And in our case, if it's a FIG case here in Indiana, you know, you basically get a free DNA test. You know, so that's $300 test or $80 test. I forget what they cost now. You know, you basically get a free DNA kit, and then, you know, then we would be able to see the results, to see if that person, you know, is in fact a closer relative or a farther relative. And so I have a few cases right now that are out for target testing. So, you know, some of my cases, it's. I think it's two or three people per case. And I think I want to say right now I have two cases out for the investigators to find these individuals to. To target test to see if they're closer or farther. And that helps us narrow that focus on the family tree as far as which part of the family tree we're looking for. So sometimes we might have to do that to find out if we're looking at a maternal or paternal side of their family tree match or, you know, or if we're trying to narrow and see, like, is this the branch of that family of the descendants that we want to focus on, or is this a branch that is too, you know, farther from where we want to be? So. And it's the same for these big companies. I'm not going to name the names of. Of the companies, but these big research companies that are solving the cases where a lot of them are in the news, you know, they. They also do target testing. Sometimes they do more target testing than what we do here at the Indiana State Police, and sometimes they don't need to. And several of our cases, the joke on the team is that my. My supervisor, whose name is Joanna, she will. I've had two cases where I was writing it for target testing and a target testing report, because we have two different kinds of reports. One is for target testing, and then one is if we feel like we have identified the person, the likely candidate. Well, in two instances, I was writing the target test, and then I ultimately, while writing the target test, figured out the likely candidate. So in one case, it was the one report was all ready to go. And we do. There's kind of a checks and balances system, so people review our reports before they get sent out. And so it was all reviewed and ready to go. And then I said, oh, by the way, I think I found him. And so. And then, you know, she. So sometimes she says, like, oh, just start writing that target test report. Maybe then you'll solve it. And. And so then I had to take that report and I had to tweak it and change it so that it was inside. And the other type of report that says, now I think I know who the person is, and we don't have to target test, you know, and as much as possible, we don't want to target test. You know, we want to be least disruptive as possible. Like, I honestly love when we solve a case and we don't have to reach out to people, we don't have to bug anybody. We don't have to target test anybody. We just can look at the family tree results, figure out the lead, and then, you know, the only people that are being disrupted are potentially the person who is the person of interest, because the police might be reaching out to make an arrest or to get a sample of their DNA or something like that. We don't want it to be disruptive to anybody. And so. And so far, we've been pretty successful in not disrupting people's lives. But it's great.

[C]

It's clean, clean that way.

[D]

We do. We do get a couple enthusiasts, though. So we've had a couple cases where we reach out to people. And one of them even told me right at the beginning of the phone call, she said, I am a crime scene enthusiast. I listened. She's like, do you work for a podcast? Do you work for this? And I had to explain, I'm actually with the Indiana State Police. And she just. She said, I want to do what you do. I want to solve these cases. And I said, well, actually, you. You kind of are a part of that right now. You're part of the case. And she was very helpful. And she was actually. She was able to provide me enough information that I think it was within 24 hours we had a person of interest for a John Doe case. So that was really exciting. Like, she's messaged me since then, and she just. She said it was. It's been my dream. She watches those, you know, those, like the CSI and NYPD pd, you know, any of those kinds. Law and Order. She watches all of those shows. And she's like, for one day, I felt like I was in that show, you know, and I'm like, I was really pleased with that, you know, but it was. It was definitely a. An interesting case. And so. But she. She was pivotal to it. And so just like I said, everybody's DNA could potentially be pivotal to a case. Yeah, you never know.

[C]

Anyone listening to this could help solve a case in the same way your.

[D]

Your DNA could solve. You know, like, if you're listening to a podcast about a murder that's still unsolved, like, your DNA could solve it. You don't know until you've posted it, you know, and. And maybe you'll never know that your DNA was the part that solved that crime. But you, you still never know. I think that's kind of exciting.

[C]

Like, it's a good thing to do for society, I think, and it's a cool way to just help get answers. And as you aptly pointed out, it's not just about busting the bad guys. It's about giving people back their names if they're not identified at this point. And all of that's so important. And getting to the truth is important. You've been amazing. We could literally listen to you talk all day.

[D]

I feel like you have listened to God all day.

[C]

We've loved it. But I.

[B]

Let me ask one thing.

[C]

Oh, yeah.

[D]

Okay.

[B]

The stories you tell, it's obvious you've made a real difference in the lives of a lot of people. How does that feel?

[D]

You know, it's. I'm kind of a nerd and I've always been a nerd. But doing genealogy, it's kind of like my superpower, you know, Like, I'm so used to it that I don't even think about like sometimes, like even, even just with a regular genealogy discovery, you know, like helping somebody find their birth parents or helping somebody find, you know, what, where did my grandmother come from in Europe, you know, And I've, I've had instances in the past where I've moved people to tears. I had a case and this was a regular genealogy case, but it was a woman that was giving a present to her 90 plus year old father. So he was, I think, turning 95 or something like that. And he always said, well, I know my grandfather came from this place and nobody believes me and I just want to prove it. And we were able to prove it, you know, that his family did come from this one country. And I don't want to name too many countries involved in it, but to protect privacy. But, but this person was so thrilled to then get this. And you know, I found out he cried and she cried. I had one person who burst into tears because I found out where her family came from in Norway. And she's been looking for 50 years. Literally. She was in her 70s, she'd been looking for 50 plus years. And I was able to find where that came from. So where this person came from. And I'm so used to it because I've done, you know, I've. Oh gosh, I, I started figuring out how many immigrants I probably found in my lifetime. It's well over a thousand. You know, we're like finding the immigrant origins for a family. And so I'm so used to it. But seeing people that maybe aren't so used to it, you know, and have it mean something to them, you know, it does make me feel really good. Like, I feel like I'm making a difference to people. Like, and I'm like, oh, to me, it's just an everyday thing. But for somebody else, you know, finding where their grandmother comes from or finding, you know, like, oh, we were always told that we were. I'm trying to think. We were always told we were French, you know, and I say, oh, you're not French. You're actually from Belgium. And so in providing them a town where their family came from or providing photographs, I've done that a few times where I've been able to give photographs to people. I've done, I've done a fair share of cases for adoptees, and I'm so used to it. I don't get emotional about these things. But, like, for some people, I mean, that's completely life changing. So. So working here at the Indiana State Police, it's life changing in a different way because a lot of these, you know, I've never, I've never really gotten to meet the families of any of these, you know, the victims or I've never gotten to meet the, the family members of these John and Jane does, and I probably never will, you know, because they might not. They probably have no idea who's researching it. But just to know that I'm able to provide, you know, some closure, you know, I, I did hear, sometimes I hear messages from the investigators, and one of them just said, you know, they're so grateful they know what happened to their brother, you know, and their brother was a, you know, common thing that you might hear is their brother's been estranged from them for years and has been homeless or, you know, has been missing for all this time, and they just don't have any idea where, where he has gone. And to then provide closure to them, you know, I know it's healing and I know, I know family history can be traumatic in its own way. Like, you know, we all have those weird relatives, you know, and we can joke about them, but some people have, you know, people that are, they're closely related to that. It's. It's a very traumatic experience. And so, you know, learning about that can be traumatic. But, you know, but at the same time, I think that there's some healing that can come from, from knowing the truth. I've helped adoptees who were told one thing about their biological family, and then they find out it's Completely opposite, you know, so. So for crime, criminal cases, you know, I feel like I'm. I'm kind of like, leaving a little bit of a legacy, you know, where I, I, I say that I'm like, you know, I like to paint. You know, for example, I like to paint, and I like to decorate my house, and I'm restoring an old house that I live in. And I like to say I'm kind of okay with that stuff, but I say that I'm really good at genealogy. You know, I've been doing it a really long time, and for some of my cases, I think that the only way that they'd ever be solved is through a really good genealogist. And so I feel like if that's what I'm able to bring, bring to the table these skills that I've developed for all these years, I feel like, like that's a really good thing. And I have to thank my friend who did offer, who did tell me about this job, because I never would have heard about it otherwise, because I feel like I, I hopefully am making a big difference, you know, with my skills and, and not just in solving the cases that I'm working on, but helping my co workers who maybe get stuck because they're. They're newer to genealogy than I. Than I am. I've been doing genealogy since, you know, we all lived in caves and we had to write our pedigrees with, you know, hammers in the cave walls. But, you know, I've been doing genealogy a really, really long time, and to be able to share that knowledge with people and be able to assist them, they understand the science a lot more than I, I do. So I often bug them with, you know, with a science question, and, and then they come over to me and they, you know, have questions on how do you read this record? Or where would you go with a case like this? And, and so that's. That's really exciting. And, you know, I, I feel like it is like a little bit of my superhero power. My kids do think I'm a little. Maybe I'm gonna say a little bit cooler now that I get to say that, like, I solve crimes, you know. So what's cooler than that? Yeah, like, one of my kids makes this joke, you know, that I, you know, I, I work in the. My garden during the day, you know, planting flowers, and at night, I'm solving crimes, you know, because it sounds like a TV show or something, but, like, you know, but that is kind of my life because I'm Kind of a nerd. And I like to work in my garden. And then, you know, I'm kind of like, you know, like, I do. I do solve crimes, but I do solve my crimes during the day. I want that pointed out. It's my 9 to 5 job. I'm not just doing this weirdly at night.

[C]

Garden at night.

[D]

Yeah, it's more of the swapping. You know, I garden at night or in the evening rather than, you know, solving crimes. But. But I think he just thinks it sounds cool. And, you know, there's not many ways that you can impress a teenager. One of my children is in college now. There's not very many things you can be a cool dad about, but at least they can say, you know, my dad solves crimes, you know, and not many people get to say that.

[C]

No, I think it's pretty freaking cool. And so I just want to. We just want to thank you for the work you've been doing and the difference you've been making, and thank you for talking to us.

[D]

We really appreciate it.

[C]

Is there anything we didn't ask you about that you wanted to mention or anything?

[D]

We. I don't think so. Just. Just know that, you know, people. I just want everybody here that's. Especially those that are living in Indiana to know the Indiana State Police. We are working really hard to. To solve these cases and to do it in a very ethical and moral way. We actually have higher standards than. Than what has been set by the. By the federal government. So we actually. We have even stricter privacy rules. And one thing I forgot to mention is once the case is solved, we actually delete the information. So if you're. If you like going back to Kevin and his horrible. His horrible brother who is a serial killer, you know, if that was the case, Kevin's information would be ultimately deleted and his DNA sample would actually. The. The DNA sample was actually deleted as well. So when the. When we ultimately solve the case, we remove it from. From GEDmatch and family tree DNA and kind of almost like erase it. But we keep a copy of the report in case we ever need to look at it. And we actually do keep a. We do keep a log of the past cases, but, you know, but as far as your information being online, it'll never be seen again. And sometimes. Sometimes the annoying thing, and I want to close with this kind of annoying thing is sometimes I say, this is really good genealogy that I'm doing. Like, I'm solving a case sometimes. Let's say I was working on Kevin's family tree picking on Kevin again, and I'm able to figure out where his ancestors come from. You know, and I build this out and let's say you already had an ancestry tree and I find 10 times more than what you have. I have to keep it to myself. You know, that's the annoying thing is I, as a genealogist, I want to share that information with people. So I would want to reach out to Kevin and be like, oh, here's your family tree, you know, but, but due to the privacy, I can't do that. But, you know, it would be. That's my annoying part of it. It's like I sometimes I say, this is really good genealogy and no one's ever going to see it but me, you know, so. But in a way that's also good because, you know, there is privacy involved. And, you know, we don't want other people, people seeing that information going out there. And so, yeah, so we, we work really hard here at the Indiana State Police to, to do this in a very ethical and moral way. And I want all the listeners to know we have very high standards and we really do want to make this program work in a very ethical way. We don't, you know, we don't need. Sometimes the listeners might have heard about instances where other organizations have uploaded to things like MyHeritage. We don't do that, and we don't support doing that. And there are now laws preventing that from happening on MyHeritage. But, you know, we, we really, we set those standards before we even started working on the cases. We already knew, like, here's how we're going to do it and how are we going to protect the privacy and how are we going to. We thought about that long before, you know, none of our cases have gone to trial. We already have the procedures in place to keep the privacy and to keep that information from getting to the public. So feel confident in us here at the Indiana State Police. We have really high standards and we really want to solve these cases. So as much help as we can get from the public would be great. And your DNA, if you upload it, it's not just going to help us here at the Indiana State Police. It's any organization that is working on it. So you might even have, you know, you might have, you might be a listener here in Indiana whose DNA might help solve a case in California or Washington or Canada is actually doing this, and even some other countries are starting to look into doing this locally as well. Sweden is a country that does utilize forensic, investigative, genetic, genetic genealogy as well. And I think, I think the more and more that we build this up and the more that we build trust, I think the faster things are going to go. And as I said, it's the best way to be involved in a case without, you know, without being directly at a crime scene.

[C]

Yes.

[D]

And it's a legacy that you can leave behind because your DNA, as I said, could solve a case long after your death. Believe it or not, several people who uploaded their DNA to GEDmatch have since passed away and I've built their family trees and they have been pivotal. So, like, they've, some of them have been dead for. I think the, the one died in 2017 and it was in 2025 that her DNA was used. And I actually learned she was a big, big time genealogist. She published her family history books. She really loved DNA and genealogy. And I said, you know, I don't know what it is like in the act for the afterlife, but I said, if she is somewhere that she knows what's going on, I kind of think that she'd be thrilled knowing. Knowing she's solving a genealogy mystery and she's not even on this earth anymore. That's pretty cool.

[B]

That's pretty cool.

[D]

Yeah.

[C]

Well, thank you so much, Bradley. It's delightful to talk to you.

[D]

Thank you so much. I'm happy to be here. And if you ever want me again on the show, I'd be happy to.

[B]

We really appreciated Bradley taking the time to talk with us. We are excited about all the potential good he and the unit can do here in Indiana. Thanks so much for listening to the Murder Sheet. If you have a tip concerning one of the cases we cover, please email [e-mail] if you have actionable information about an unsolved crime, please report it to the appropriate authorities.

[C]

If you're interested in joining our Patreon, that's available at www.patreon.com murdersheet if you want to tip us a bit of money for records requests, you can do so at www. Buymeacoffee.com murdersheet. We very much appreciate any support.

[B]

Special thanks to Kevin Tyler Greenlee, who composed the music for the Murder Sheet and who you can find on the [e-mail] if you're looking to talk with

[C]

other listeners about a case we've covered, you can join the Murder Sheet discussion group on Facebook. We mostly focus our time on research and reporting, so we're not on social media. Much. We do try to check our email account, but we ask for patience as we often receive a lot of messages. Thanks again for listening.