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A
If you want to take your business to the next level, you need upwork. Their talented freelancers will have you winning the talent game and scaling up fast.
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Upwork is a one stop platform for finding, hiring and paying expert talent the people you need to do the jobs that need to get done right. Upwork boasts talent across 125 categories Marketing, Business, operations, data and analytics, software development, creative writing, and much more.
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Upwork is all about delegation because you don't have to do everything all by yourself. You can bring in trusted, capable freelancers for a single project or Again and
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B
Anya and I both wear glasses. We would have a really hard time without them, but here's the thing. They're expensive and an inconvenience to replace, so both of us tend to hang onto them for years and years, even after they get scratched or loosened or we're not loving the way they look anymore.
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A
But we're giving our old way of doing things the side eye. Thanks to Zenni Optical. They're an online eyewear shop with lots of stylish prescription glasses, sunglasses and customizable lens options, all starting at under 30 doll.
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I picked the unisex full rim black stainless steel square eyeglass frame. I love the way they look, understated but stylish. I'm going to use them to read mostly. As our listeners know, we enjoy reading a lot of crime, nonfiction and fiction. So my Zenni glasses are going to be put to good use this summer as I seek to drive up the number of books I read. With Zenni, you can buy that special pair of glasses for a particular activity or outfit or without driving up your bill. These glasses were only $68 and in most places I've shopped for glasses, I'd expect to pay many times that that scratched up pair has done its job Upgrade today with Zenny. Go to Zenni.com podcast and use code PODCAST15 for 15% off your first order, plus free shipping on all US orders over $65. These styles sell out, so don't sit on it. That's Z e n n I.com podcast promo code podcast15. Hi, Ryan Reynolds here for Mint Mobile. Are you looking for a beach read this summer? May I suggest your big wireless bill? It's got suspense, mystery, a slightly flat emotional arc, and a shocking twist where you realize you've been overpaying the entire time. Fortunately, though, Mint Story is better. Every plan $15 a month, even unlimited. That's it. Happy ending, zero tears. Give it a try@mintmobile.com Switch upfront payment
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A
of 45 for 3 months, $90 for 6 months or $180 for 12 month plan required. $15 per month equivalent taxes and fees. Extra initial plan term only greater than 50 gigabytes. Me slow when network is busy.
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B
See terms.
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A
Hi, I'm Anya. In today's Cheat Sheet, we're going to be sticking around Indiana for two cases, then heading over east to Ohio and finally going to Georgia. Content warning. This episode contains discussion of murder and violence, including the murder of children. All right, Kevin, so we've recorded three cheat sheets today. This is our third. What are you thinking of? How's it going?
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B
Well, I think it's disastrous. It's an awful mistake, and the quality level has suffered dramatically.
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A
Right.
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B
And I also wanted to mention it's kind of embarrassing. We're like one of those couples where, like, sometimes I'll go and I'll get dressed, and then you go and get dressed and, like, you'll be wearing, like, the same color.
- [04:16]
A
Yeah, that happens a lot to us, actually.
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B
And we just had the cheat sheet equivalent because you said, oh, Kevin, I picked this case, and it was a case I'd already picked.
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A
That is true.
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B
So you went back to the cheat sheet data mines and had your cheat sheet laborers reach into the cheat sheet shaft and pull out a different case for you.
- [04:41]
A
That all sounded very odd. Not gonna lie.
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B
Well, how would you describe it?
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A
I just found another case that interested me by having. There's no laborers. You're making it sound like I'm some kind of, like, evil West Virginia coal kingpin. You know, where I'm sending the Pinkertons out to, like, abuse my workers. And that's not what's going on here. I'm just a person doing my job.
- [05:06]
B
Yeah, that's what's happening. There was nothing untoward here, here. Ms. Kane,
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A
you're a silly man. Are you ready to move on, or do you have any other nonsense dispute with these good people?
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B
Let's just. Let's just make it happen.
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A
Let's do it. My name is Anya Kane. I'm a journalist.
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B
And I'm Kevin Greenley. I'm an attorney.
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A
And this is the Murder Sheet.
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B
We're a true crime podcast focused on original reporting, interviews, and. And deep dives into murder cases. We're the Murder Sheet.
- [05:39]
A
And this is the cheat sheet. Marshals and mass shootings.
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B
It. One thing I'll say before we move on is that on these three cheat sheets that we've recorded today and that you've hopefully have listened to over the last few weeks, for some reason, the button for our music cues, I think we must have put that in, like, another floor of the house, because it feels like, okay, we're ready to start the show, and then one of us has to get up and run across the house to start the music.
- [06:52]
A
What do you mean, one of us? I'm the one who has to do this. And it's because our desk is so disorganized that I basically have to prop up my computer so I can film without looking like I have 10,000 double chins, and, you know, it's on a stack of books, and then that has to go in front of that. So if you want to do something, be the change you want to see and help me organize this desk more properly, because this. I mean, I. You said you. You woke the bear here. This desk is a mess. Okay. And this desk is causing us problems in our work life.
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B
So I. I woke the bear and I poked a sleeping giant.
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A
And you. Yeah, you woke up bear and poked a sleeping giant. Oh, my God. Oh, man. Yeah, that. Your. Your. Your. Your Admiral Yamamoto of our household. All right, but let's go to. I guess we're doing my cases first, right? Yeah, I'm taking charge. So my first case is a horrible situation out of Indiana that has. Has just happened. Very sad. So in Indiana, for those of you. I mean, I think this is a thing in other states, too, but in Indiana, like, the town marshal, My understanding is when you have an incorporated town, town marshal is basically someone who's basically the police chief. Like, they're, like, the one in charge of policing. And I think they're usually appointed by, like, the town council, so it's an important role. I remember we did an episode when we were talking about the Laurel Jean Mitchell case where we interviewed the family members of the town marshal that had actually investigated that case for many years. And we talked about, like, how he was really a part of the community and was like. Seemed like a really nice guy. So. So this is. This is another town marshal in a different town, but it's the town of Lynn, Indiana. And the town marshal there was a man named Brad Fisher who'd served with their police department for many years. And what happened was a Randolph county sheriff's deputy noticed a stolen van. And this was Wednesday morning. This was the morning of June, July 29th. And it's about 8:30am so the deputy figures out that the person driving this, a woman, has an active felony warrant for unlawful possession of syringes, drug charges, in other words. And the warrant belonged to a woman named Macy Atkinson. She's from Winchester, Indiana. She's 34. And she. She flees and the deputy pursues. And there's a kind of, you know, there's a police pursuit as a result of this. So town marshal Brad Fisher was trying to. He was ahead on United States 36. And he was basically. He had been radioed that this was going on. He was trying to set up a tire inflation device, entire deflation device to stop the chase. But instead Atkinson struck him with the van and then subsequently crashed into a dump truck. And town Marshall Fisher was killed as a result of this. This is obviously extremely tragic. He was, I believe, had 25 years experience in law enforcement, and he also had a wife and children. He was very dedicated to his faith. He was a Christian. And. And now he's dead because of, like. Because someone just couldn't, like, pull over and, I don't know, deal with whatever issues she had with drugs. It just. It's really horrible. And it's the kind of. It's very heartbreaking. I don't know, my heart goes out to this guy's family. This shouldn't have happened. And I. I imagine that at this point, when I looked at my case, there's no charges that she's facing around his death. I imagine that will very much change soon. You know, this is.
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B
I expect that to change.
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A
And, like, I just wanted, like. Like, my heart goes out to Lynn, too. That's a very small town. And I think a lot of people knew the town marshal. So, like, he was very much part of the community. And I mean, I think he was like. I think he was like an umpire for baseball games there too. Like, he was doing a lot and helping a lot of people. I said 25. He was actually there 27 years Geez, yeah. I imagine further charges will come out of the Randall Randolph County Prosecutor's Office over this, as they should, because this is unacceptable. So that is a sad case. And the next case is also sad. The next case is a case involving a mass shooting. Kevin, when we're talking about mass shootings and like the prosecutions, who are we usually thinking about who's getting prosecuted?
- [12:12]
B
Well, typically in these situations, we are thinking about the, the person who actually did the shooting. But as we are all well aware, you can be guilty of murder and have legal immoral responsibility for a crime, even if the act of actually taking the life was done by someone else.
- [12:39]
A
Right. And I think we're, you know, traditionally in the United States, whoever perpetrates a mass shooting is the one that we focus on. But increasingly, as children are carrying out some of these really heinous attacks, we're seeing the, what I think are the beginnings of a movement to charge parents and, you know, and by doing so cause greater accountability and also send a message to other negligent parents that, you know, you could go to prison with your, with your actions. And what do I mean by that? Well, there was the case of Ethan Crumbley out of Michigan. His parents both were convicted of charges related to essentially permitting him to carry out this mass shooting, you know, providing a very troubled boy with a gun that then he uses to kill people at his school, despite knowing the extent of his issues. And a similar case, I think this is maybe the second of its kind has happened recently in Georgia. Let's revisit the mass shooting that we actually saw like happen. You know, that happened. And then that kind of, I think has kind of fostered the current situation.
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B
So yeah, let's do that.
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A
I remember when this happened. I remember like seeing the, the live social media Updates was horrible. September 4, 2024. Appalachian High School. This is in Georgia and it's, it's Barrow County, Georgia. And the shooter was for you know what, I'm actually not going to say the shooter's name. I think these people don't deserve to be remembered. I will say the father's name, but not the shooter. It was a 14 year old boy and he ended up shooting and killing four people. The victims were two students, 14 year old Mason Schermer Horn, Christian Angulo, and then two teachers, Christina Erimy and Richard Aspinwall. And an additional nine people, one teacher and eight students were injured and wounded and presumably very much traumatized. So, you know, he shows up to school with this gun. Now what came out was that the shooter's father, a man named Colin Gray, had bought his disturbed son a rifle despite knowing the following information that his son had been the subject of a police investigation regarding possible school shooting threats made by him. What do you think of that?
- [15:27]
B
That sounds incredibly irresponsible if you know that your loved one is under investigation for potentially committing violent acts and then you still supply that person with a weapon. Yeah, that's tough to reconcile. And certainly I understand and support the argument that when you act that recklessly, you do bear responsibility to some extent for what happens next.
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A
So he's giving him access to his guns. He's buying him a rifle. Despite this, he is also aware of his son's, you know, history of mental, you know, mental health struggles, whatever you want to call it. You know, as for why the. You know, why didn't the investigation go further? Well, he was 13 then. They were able to trace messages around a discord about maybe someone wanting to commit a school shooting with a rifle and a shotgun. Pictures. And they traced it to this kid. But I guess they. They didn't feel like they had enough evidence.
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B
Right.
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A
You know, there wasn't probable cause for an arrest. And I mean, I kind of. I wonder at that decision. You know, if someone's posting stuff like that. I don't know, maybe there should be. Maybe that should be enough. Like, I'm not. I don't know. I think, like, given what happened, especially this, this. This child shooter was obsessed with other shooters of other notable school shootings. This is something we've increasingly seen. There's almost a subc amongst people who are aspiring school shooters who admire and want to pay tribute, pay homage to past school shooters because it's like a mark of honor and they want to emulate their heroes. And this child had a shrine in his room with some of those school shooters displayed prominently. Again, where were the parents? You know? Yeah, why have a child if you're gonna, like, do nothing?
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B
And if you see your child idolizing school shooters to that extent, why in God's name do you allow that child to have unfettered access to a firearm?
- [17:57]
A
And by the way, this. This kid's mom is also a creep. Like, I've heard, like, jail call videos with her. And so, you know, and it's. It just. These people disgust me. People like this should not breed, you know, if you're gonna, like, have a kid and, you know, put it through a lot of nonsense. I mean, like, in fairness, like, this shooter had a bad childhood. I mean, that is really not up for debate. Now. I believe that 14 years old is very much old enough to know better that you shouldn't do a school shooting. But when you look at this kid's parents, he was, he was, he was not, he was not set up for success here, to say the least.
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B
It's August, which means summer is cooling off and we are heading for fall. August is pretty much the Sunday of summer, right? As the seasons change, we'll be relying on our our wonderful sponsor Quince to keep us feeling stylish and comfortable.
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A
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B
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- [21:49]
A
is brought to you by SoFi, the All in one finance app where you can bank, borrow and invest all in one place. Let's talk bank accounts for a second. The average bank Savings rate is 0.39% in interest. You're earning pennies on your savings. But it doesn't have to be that way with SoFi's high yield checking and savings. The money barely making moves sitting in your savings account can earn over eight times the national average savings rate. With eligible direct deposit, no account or overdraft fees, you can get your paycheck up to two days early. Plus you get an epic welcome bonus when you sign up with eligible direct deposit. Sign up for SOFI checking and savings@sofi.com ama today sofi checking and savings is offered through SOFI Bank. NA member, FDIC terms apply. Anyways, so this, this father's doing all this and ultimately the father has been, was, was arrested for his role in this, charged with felony murder and, or rather sorry, no, he, he was arrested and convicted on second degree murder and involuntary manslaughter for his role. And what he, what just happened recently in July was that he was sentenced to 15 years in prison for that he was facing I think quite a lot, you know, a longer sentence than that that they were, they were looking at. I think the prosecution wanted him to be sentenced to 80 years in prison, you know, because it's again, he gave this, he gave his child a gun. Months after being told by law enforcement you need to restrict your son's access to guns and that this is all going on while he has a friggin shrine to high school massacres in his room that this guy had to have seen. It's his house. Yeah, I mean he was warned. The, the jury was like, yeah, they convicted him. But I guess, I guess the judge felt that 15 years was punishment enough. I, I don't know if I agree with that, but I, I have no problem. I mean, listen, I don't like the idea of like people being held responsible for things that are not their fault. And there are certain mass shootings or certain instances of some kid turning out real bad that I don't think are the parents faults. I really think some people are born messed up and maybe the parents don't do everything perfectly. But like you can't say like this is your fault, you know. And also at a certain point some people just like make bad decisions. Right? This was a choice. These were all choices. But I feel like for the choices this particular father made, he does deserve prison time because he made this happen. You know, Colin Gray has blood on his hands. And I hope this is again a, a shot over the bow, so to speak of for like crummy parents everywhere. Like if your little angel messes up this badly and you're giving them firearms, you're gonna go down. Yeah, I really, I mean, I feel like, you know, if we're not gonna do anything about gun control, if we're not gonna do anything about this, then some people need to start losing their livelihoods and their freedoms and, or you know, maybe some people would then be incentivized to actually step up as parents. What do you think?
- [25:30]
B
I, I, I think that it would be wonderful if cases like this inspired parents to be more thoughtful when they are allowing children to have access to guns. Or alternatively might make some people say, well, maybe Junior isn't quite ready for a gun at this time or maybe
- [25:51]
A
I should get Junior like significant mental health help if he has a friggin shrine to school shooters in his room. Like just a hint, if you know, like if you know anyone with that, like that's a really bad sign.
- [26:03]
B
It's a red flag.
- [26:05]
A
It's a huge red flag. You're glorifying killers. That's a really bad red flag. You know, you're raising your kids wrong. If they're doing that, something's going very wrong. And let me just say this, like all that would have taken in this case for Colin Gray to be doing like his job as a parent, like you Know, because people like, well, guns are my culture, whatever, I don't care, that's fine, Take your kid hunting, do whatever, like raise your kids around firearms. I, I mean, that wouldn't be me. But if people want to do that, that's fine, as long as you're doing it responsibly. Responsible gun owners who want to introduce their kids to guns, do it safely. They don't give unfettered access to all firearms and they have gun locks and they have methods of like, okay, let's use the gun together there. It's, it's, it's teaching your kid responsibility. It's teaching your kid how to handle a gun safely. It's not just like, here's a gun, go nuts. You know, I think any responsible gun owner would be looking at this and being like, I would not do that. And I think that's the important thing. They're not going after this guy because he introduced his son to guns. They were going after this guy because, you know, the totality of the circumstances indicate that what he did was total irresponsible lunacy and he bears some responsibility for what happened to those four people in that school.
- [27:23]
B
I agree. Should we move on to our neighbor to the east?
- [27:30]
A
Yes.
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B
This is a case that touches upon something we talked about a couple of weeks ago on the program. My source for this is wkyc.com this is a case involving the murder of a 67 year old man named Robert Lewis, which happened very recently. Police respond to a call at 8am after a family member found Mr. Lewis dead in his bed of a gunshot wound. They quickly learned that a 16 year old relative had been staying there and had just left. So obviously had reason to suspect he was the perpetrator. And thanks to the use of Flock cameras, they are able to locate him and arrest him within 24 minutes. And when this young man is arrested, he indicates that he did expect to be caught, but did not expect to be caught so quickly. Police say, oh, don't worry, Flock cameras are only used for official investigation. There's all sorts of security measures and safeguards in place. So this raises to me a lot of very interesting questions because obviously in the Delphi case, if an arrest had been made within 20 minutes there, that sounds pretty good.
- [28:58]
A
Yeah, I like that.
- [29:00]
B
But to me, this does start veering towards a surveillance state. I want to know what exactly the security measures and safeguards that they say are in place. What are the safeguards? It seems like there is a real potential here for this technology to be misused in a way that violates all of our privacy. I'm not necessarily saying that happened here. I'm just saying that potential exists. And I would like to have a thoughtful conversation about what these safeguards are, what these security measures are before the technology gets misused and someone rights are violated and cases start getting thrown out. Life is a balancing act where we try to give due deference to a variety of interests. All of us want murderers to be caught. We also have privacy rights and other civil rights. It would be very easy to reduce crime if we said, well, you don't have to prove beyond a reasonable doubt someone is guilty. Just, you know, maybe it was him. So we can't just say, as long as something reduces crime or makes things easier for law enforcement, it's good. We have to understand there is a trade off. And we have to have a conversation about are we okay with this kind of a trade off. Are we okay with police and the government being able to know where we are at anytime? What do you think?
- [30:47]
A
Yeah, I mean, it's really complicated, right? Because I know people say, well, I mean, if you have a cell phone, you're being tracked, right?
- [30:53]
B
Yeah.
- [30:54]
A
But the thing is, there is some, it seems like to me, and I could be wrong and I would be, I would defer to someone with law enforcement experience with this, but it seems to me like there's more friction at getting a warrant for somebody's cell phone data proving they are in a certain place than there is for necessarily some of these license plate readers. You know, you have to go, to get, you have to go to a judge and say, here's why we think this. I really, on some level, on some emotional level, I don't have a problem with them busting murderers using this. But that doesn't mean that I'm, I feel like this is so powerful that there almost has to be some kind of limitation put on it or we are very much at risk of, of a surveillance state becoming like, so all powerful. And, and what I mean by that is like, could there be instances where it's like, okay, you can use it to look at who is driving away from this murder site or a violent, the site of a violent crime, but maybe it's not used for other things that are less serious? I mean, I don't know where the line is. I mean, I think that should be legislated.
- [32:03]
B
I don't know where the line is either. But it feels to me that a conversation needs to be had. Under what circumstances can this sort of technology Be used. One thing you mentioned cell phones. If I decide that I don't like Google tracking me, maybe I can get a different cell phone. Maybe I want to go center privately and not have big brother watching me. I can leave my phone at home. But if just by going out into the world and stepping into a car, I am being tracked and there's nothing I can do about it, that seems more troubling to me.
- [32:42]
A
I mean, and God help the family of Mr. Robert Lewis. I'm sure they're thrilled that this guy was busted quickly. And I think, you know, I mean, it must be very painful because it's another family member. But at the same time I would want, if someone murdered someone I loved, I would want them to be caught swiftly. I would. And I wouldn't care if it was a license plate reader. I guess my issue is really not with someone getting caught in this manner. It's more of like, because it is so powerful, what kind of conversations we can, can we have to protect our rights. Again, people might be like, well, do people really have a right to get away with murder? You know, I mean, like what do you, what could you see this being used for? That's scary. Like, that's like not like we like the idea of someone getting busted for murder. We like the idea of the kidnapper went this way, let's track him. We don't. Like, what would be something where you're like, oh no, that's too like, we don't want that.
- [33:38]
B
Were you talking about them being used in an investigation related to an abortion a couple of weeks ago?
- [33:43]
A
Yes, self self medicated abortion of a non viable fetus in Texas. We just did that on the cheat sheet. That was a case where people find that controversial. Some people do not believe abortion's okay, others do. People feel divided about this. But I think people feel very uncomfortable with the idea. And in that case, you know, discussions with the prosecutor reveal that the woman did not, they were not going to go forward with prosecution. And so that's a case where it's like, I think people feel very uncomfortable about a woman being tracked and being tracked at the behest of a partner who's now commit charged with committing domestic violence against her. So yeah, you have situations like that where people are like, you know, let me ask you this, that some people feel like that shouldn't even be a crime, but someone's like being tracked potentially across state lines.
- [34:36]
B
What if you, what if you live in a state where marijuana use is illegal and the police have a Good idea of who a potential dealer is. Would you feel comfortable with the police using this technology to track the vehicles of everybody who parks their car within two blocks of that residence?
- [34:57]
A
No, no.
- [34:59]
B
I mean, drugs are a crime too.
- [35:00]
A
Drugs are a crime and drugs can be very serious.
- [35:03]
B
Yeah.
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A
And people get killed in the drug trade. But that would feel like targeting people who just happen to be in the wrong place at the wrong time feels like a violation.
- [35:15]
B
So it's, it's not difficult to conceive of situations where this would be inappropriate and it's also not difficult to imagine situations where it could be misused. If it is so easy for law enforcement agencies in the government to track us, it's probably that could be done to ill use at some point. It just makes me uncomfortable and I feel that technology is advancing faster than our ability to think about it and intelligently use it.
- [35:49]
A
Oh, that's very much the case. And again, as I said, like these companies and these corporations and these billionaires are basically like forcing it all down our throats. We don't really seem to have much of a say in it. But if it comes up to the point where it's potentially as the potential to violate our constitutional rights, you know, in a functioning republic and a functioning democracy, we should be able to kind of say this needs to be scaled back or this can be used for that and not this. I don't like the idea of, of making an all powerful surveillance state any more than we frankly already have. I mean we're already there folks. I mean some people might say that's a good thing because it can reduce crime. But it's getting to the point where some of this I think could be used for ill and I don't want to see that happen.
- [36:37]
B
Yeah, I'm sure 30, 40, 50 years ago people would be astonished if they knew most of us were willingly carrying with us devices that allowed others to track our every movement.
- [36:50]
A
It's kind of freaky when you think about it. But as you said, I do think there is a distinction to be made between that, which again might sound very dystopian but like you can get a dumb phone, you can get a flip phone, you can leave your phone at home. You know, like there are different things you can do. You can't avoid driving. Passive flock safety. License plate reader.
- [37:15]
B
No, you can't do it.
- [37:16]
A
No.
- [37:17]
B
And by carrying this, this phone in my pocket, I'm also getting some services. So the argument could be made I'm making an intelligent decision that I'm willing to give up some of my privacy rights in exchange for these services I am receiving. But just by, you know, driving down a street where the government has put up a camera, I'm not involved in that decision at all.
- [37:40]
A
I'll give a, I'll give a kind of a dystopian example because again, like we all, I mean, listen, we're true crime podcast listeners. I hope we all want to catch criminals. Right? I hope we all want to catch violent, bad criminals who hurt people, who kill people. I think that's something, that's an admirable impulse that I certainly share. And I don't want to necessarily see helpful technology go away in that respect. But there has to be a line. Let me give you. Let's say that government decides that whatever your beliefs are, are connected to some kind of radical terrorist gang that they determine are terrorists. But, you know, but you, you may share some ideological beliefs, whatever your ideology is, whatever your political beliefs are. And then York, your car is seen going to your brother in law's house and he also feels the same way. And maybe he's part of some organization that they suddenly then deem a threat, you know, maybe it's not. But at that point, wouldn't it be very easy to be like, well, this car was seen going back and forth to this known terrorist hub. Like, things can get pretty bad pretty quickly. Especially if, like, if things start to slide in the United States, you know, if we start to, you know, if we go full authoritarian, I think this kind of stuff will be used to hunt and kill political dissidents. I guess, like, that sounds really dramatic. I hope that never comes to like that point. But one can see how that would happen.
- [39:09]
B
In, in fairness, it's a, it's a long tradition in our country of trying to imagine worst case scenarios and using them dramatically because yeah, I'm not saying
- [39:19]
A
it's going to happen. I don't think it will.
- [39:21]
B
Gun rights people will say, oh, if there's licenses to own guns, then the government's going to come and track us all down.
- [39:27]
A
Yeah, I don't, again, I don't think this is going to happen. I'm just saying, like, it makes me very uncomfortable and it would make me less uncomfortable if it was reined in and there were certain parameters for its use in order to kind of ensure that we're using it for the most serious cases, we're using it for public safety and we're not just spying on Americans. Like, like for what end? And again, like I've said, like There's a lot of infrastructure around some of this stuff that is kind of getting built up and forced down people's throats and different things about AI and about this and about surveillance that are being kind of just put out there seemingly without a lot of seemingly public interest or input and without a lot of public buy in. And I just like, again, I'm not saying this is related, but like you see like these, like, you know, these AI billionaires running around being like, well, you know, it's going to kill you and take your jobs and probably end the world. But like the value for shareholders will be so great. And then they're confused by why people don't want a data center in their town. Like, I feel like there's a real disconnect going on right now. And I think people on, frankly, I've seen people on both sides of the aisle in America at least get really pissed about this. Like it's. I think people are sick of having this shoved down their throats without any input. And again, I'm, I'm all for a tool that can, you know, I love DNA, right? This could be really helpful for solving murders. And I don't want that to necessarily go away, but I don't want to see something like this just become like we, we have the power to kind of, I don't know, it, it's a, it's a powerful technology, therefore it needs powerful guardrails to ensure that everything is on the up and up, I think.
- [41:20]
B
So let us go pretty close to home before we wrap up for the weekend to the town of Anderson, Indiana. My source for this is fox59.com people think of Anderson, Indiana, of course, there used to be a religious organization there that Mr. Charles Schultz was a fish affiliated with and he did some cartoons for them. That's the creator of Peanuts. And also Anderson, other than that is perhaps best known for having a captain Ds, which is a wonderful restaurant. Anya has often said, why don't we have a murder sheet meetup at this Captain D's and everybody could just be gathered around eating fresh hot fish, clams, hush puppies. Oh, you're thirsty. Don't worry, there's a self serve fountain. Go help yourself. You said that. You make it sound like a dream, don't you, Anya?
- [42:13]
A
If now people want that, then that's going to be on your head. So you don't get to complain.
- [42:17]
B
Okay, why would I complain if people wanted to hang out at a Captain?
- [42:22]
A
Because you're antisocial. Okay, but maybe Maybe. Yeah. You might like it at Captain D's. I'm not going to lie. I was not expecting to like Captain D's. But their clam dinner is pretty awesome. So. I mean, shout out to the Anderson Captain D's.
- [42:39]
B
You once said to me that if you were asked to define heaven and what you think heaven is like, you'd say, kevin, the Anderson Captain D's.
- [42:52]
A
I never said that. I said this fast food restaurant is better than I thought it was going to be. Yes, that's what I said.
- [42:59]
B
You've also raved Anderson. Speaking of restaurants that we don't have as many of them as we'd like. They also have a Big Boy there.
- [43:07]
A
Yeah.
- [43:09]
B
And you've told me that.
- [43:10]
A
Not the best Big Boy I've been to.
- [43:12]
B
But you like the Big Boy chain as a whole.
- [43:14]
A
I like the Big Boy chain and as a whole, I just. That Big Boy was not. Not the best. I'm not trying to shade anyone. I'm sorry if anyone works there. But I. That, you know, maybe I just. Maybe we were there on an off day. I don't know.
- [43:28]
B
You love the Big Boy. The super.
- [43:30]
A
I love the Big Boy. I love the Big Boy. We go to the Big Boy when we go to Ohio, you know, I mean, that's kind of what we do. And I think there's one in like eastern Indiana that we go to like, because we're like, that's where we're crossing.
- [43:43]
B
I. I treat my wife right. Here's a special treat for you, honey. Let's go to Big Boy.
- [43:50]
A
That is so freaking sad.
- [43:52]
B
You're very, very lucky woman. In many.
- [43:54]
A
You're lucky I'm a cheap.
- [44:00]
B
That's right. Because both Captain D's and Big Boy are also very economical. Maybe we should have another murder sheet meetup at a Big Boy.
- [44:07]
A
Thanks to our sponsors. Big no, we did. They didn't give us any money for this. This is happening.
- [44:14]
B
Love the Big Boy. So also, sometimes things happen in Henderson that aren't quite so fun that don't involve. That's my transition.
- [44:23]
A
Skillful transition. Was this a restaurant murder? Actually, I think the initial thing might have been, but go ahead.
- [44:32]
B
Yeah, it happened near Sunny Ray's Cafe.
- [44:36]
A
So we're going back to our roots of restaurant homicides.
- [44:39]
B
Yeah. This involves a 15 year old boy. I'm sure I'm going to mispronounce this name. Joe Mays. Larry. He has been sentenced to 100 years in prison. Whoa. For his role in the death of a woman last year. It was part of a botched hit. It happened because Mr. Larry is. He was one of eight members of Mickey Cobra Nation, and they came to town to get rid of a witness in another case. And as you might imagine, with so many members of Mickey Cobra nation there and tension so high, it's kind of like a big crossfire type of situation. And this woman ended up getting struck and killed. And police were able to track down Mr. Larry despite the fact that he. He fled. He left the state. He went to Wisconsin. His parents filed a missing persons report on him because he was only 14 years old at the time. Can you imagine making a choice at 14 years of age that basically robs you of your freedom for the rest of your life? Mr. Larry, as they were looking for him, they found that he posted on social media, quote, I'm not coming back till this moment. Murder case over. But he did indeed come back, and now he is facing 100 years in prison. I also think it's interesting, some of the people who were mixed up in this whole sad, sorry incident were discussing plans for it via messages on Instagram. And I'm sure prosecutors always appreciate it when people hatch their criminal plots in writing.
- [46:44]
A
And so social media, I mean, there's so much to unpack here. My understanding was that he was going to be able to have some kind of appeal after so many years.
- [46:58]
B
Yeah. Under Indiana law, if you're a minor when you're sentenced for murder, you can ask for a lesser sentence after 20 years, and then the court can evaluate it at that time. So this is not written in.
- [47:16]
A
So when he's 30, 35, he could potentially get out with good behavior.
- [47:22]
B
I don't know if the proper term is good behavior, but if he's established a really good record and shows remorse and the. Yeah.
- [47:34]
A
So there is a path out for him.
- [47:36]
B
There is. In other words, there is a path out. It's not guaranteed, but.
- [47:40]
A
But 100 years is also not guaranteed.
- [47:42]
B
Yes.
- [47:44]
A
Why do all gangs these days? Mickey Cobra nation is just like the corniest thing I've ever heard. Like, what are we doing? And then second of all, like, like, I don't know. The whole thing is just so stupid. But that's what you. That's what you expect with gangs. To me, like any gang crime is just like the stupidest thing I've ever seen. And, you know, people just shooting it out for no reason.
- [48:06]
B
Now, now, frankly, you've raised a concern that now we have to worry about Mickey Cobra nation coming after us because you're mocking their name.
- [48:14]
A
Well, I Think it's a pretty stupid name. But I also think it's just stupid to be involved in a gang. And I, I don't know, but I guess like, you know, that's why they go for like 15 year olds to recruit. It's really sad that this woman was killed so senselessly in this, in this stupid shootout. This stuff terrifies me because, like, you know, if you're just happening. I don't know if she was involved in any of it or if she was just truly like a innocent bystander. Either way, she did not deserve to die. But it scares me that there's people who are like, so stupid that they're like, yeah, let's just start shooting, you know, like, that could kill anybody. You know, like that's like, you don't have to make a bad choice to get killed by people who are that dumb.
- [48:57]
B
Right.
- [48:59]
A
And then like acting like, I mean, again, I know he's 15, so I mean, you know, young people are irrational and don't have the life experience, but idea of like, oh, I'll just like leave the state until it blows over. It's a murder case. Like, you know what I mean? Like, they're not gonna let it go.
- [49:16]
B
It's not gonna blow over.
- [49:17]
A
No, it's never gonna.
- [49:18]
B
This is it. This is your life.
- [49:19]
A
Yeah. The best thing you could do at that point is come forward and throw yourself on the mercy of the state and snitch on your Mickey Cobra buddies. But, you know, I don't know, it's a shame. It's a shame when you see young people just kind of throwing their lives away for what, a gang affiliation?
- [49:37]
B
Yeah.
- [49:38]
A
Like go to school and leave all that. You know, one can only hope that people like this may mature and become better people in prison while considering the harm they've done. But I mean, that really depends on if they actually do that. I think prison honestly is so gang infiltrated and so gang based where, like, everyone's in a gang for protection that, you know, it doesn't really always lend itself to reflection and improvement, which, which is, I don't think, a good thing. I think that we, we should be, we should be making it more rehabilitative when possible, especially for one so young. You know, he made a really bad decision. He made a lot of really bad decisions, Evil, selfless decisions. But maybe someone who's 15 when they do that can grow into a better man. And I just, you know, but I really don't feel like things are set up in the prison system to help People take responsibility and then take accountability and then grow from it.
- [50:45]
B
Yeah, I think that about wraps it up. We do. We're beefing up our premium content both on Patreon and Apple. I think the content is the same either play. So it's like if you like Patreon, go there. If it's easy for you to do Apple, go there. Early episodes, extra episodes, ad free episodes. And if we end up having a meetup at a fish place, I'm sure the first word of it will be given on our premium content. Right. Eventually we'll tell everybody, but Captain D's does not have infinite seating. Right. So the first option would be for the premium people. Right?
- [51:22]
A
Yeah, absolutely.
- [51:24]
B
What are you doing?
- [51:26]
A
I'm shaking my head ruefully at you.
- [51:29]
B
There's other fish places. Kaplan's here in Indianapolis is good. Grops up by Fort Wayne. What's your favorite fish place that we've been to together?
- [51:40]
A
I don't.
- [51:41]
B
I don't know.
- [51:41]
A
I mean, I'm not a huge fish person.
- [51:44]
B
You loved Graps?
- [51:46]
A
Yeah, I mean, I thought they were great. I mean, all these places are good.
- [51:50]
B
What about Ye Olde Fish House?
- [51:52]
A
All of these places. All these places are very good. Fish is not my favorite thing in the world, but I like them.
- [51:59]
B
I remember being told by my mother as a young man, long John Silver's isn't good. So I've never really given Long John Silver's affairs.
- [52:07]
A
Dang. Shots fired.
- [52:10]
B
That was just how I was raised. Long John Silver's is a no go.
- [52:12]
A
Your mother told you that Long John Silvers is the enemy and she made you swear eternal enmity to them, like Hannibal's father did with Rome.
- [52:21]
B
Maybe she's in like pirates.
- [52:24]
A
They're all criminals. I mean, yeah, literally they are. She likes law and order on the seas.
- [52:31]
B
You, on the other hand, you have no problem with pirates in their restaurants?
- [52:34]
A
I don't. I think pirates are kind of fun, you know, like, I think they're fun, but I wouldn't want to actually run into real pirates.
- [52:42]
B
There's a pirate themed barbecue in Indianapolis that you enjoy.
- [52:47]
A
I think you enjoy it too. And its name is Big Hoffa's.
- [52:50]
B
Yes.
- [52:51]
A
I think we had quite a time. Quite a couple times there.
- [52:54]
B
Yeah.
- [52:55]
A
We may have fell in love at Big Hoffas.
- [53:00]
B
Well, I don't know.
- [53:01]
A
I think we kind of fell in love over time, but. Yeah, but Big Hoffa's, definitely Big Hoffa's. It's very romantic pirate themed barbecue joint.
- [53:12]
B
So we could like have a meetup At a variety of restaurants in town.
- [53:17]
A
You're really pushing for a meetup. I'm. I'm impressed.
- [53:20]
B
I love our dear friends, the listeners.
- [53:22]
A
There you go.
- [53:24]
B
And I love fish.
- [53:26]
A
Love fish. Well, that's a great combination then.
- [53:30]
B
Listeners and fish.
- [53:32]
A
Are you. Are you all done with them or let them get to their weekend?
- [53:35]
B
Yeah. And again, if you think it would be better for us to send you off on your way with a happy story, like a nice little pat on the back.
- [53:47]
A
I don't. I don't think they want to be condescended to. Oh, these sad things happen. But don't worry. This happy thing happened. Like, I don't. I don't think that Maybe I'm not. Maybe you guys want that. I don't know. I don't see.
- [53:59]
B
You're framing it in such a way that if people say, yeah, I want
- [54:02]
A
to be condescended to, I mean, you
- [54:04]
B
can want a happy story. That's not being condescended.
- [54:07]
A
I just feel like that's how it'll come across.
- [54:09]
B
No, I think we could sell it.
- [54:11]
A
Oh, you think we could sell it? You think we got it?
- [54:13]
B
Yeah.
- [54:14]
A
Okay. Well, if you think we can execute it. Well. And other people only.
- [54:17]
B
Only if people want it.
- [54:18]
A
Only if you want it. It's all up to you.
- [54:22]
B
I gave me called like the happy sheet.
- [54:23]
A
Oh, I don't like that at all.
- [54:25]
B
The joy sheet.
- [54:26]
A
I. I don't care for that.
- [54:28]
B
The uplifting sheet.
- [54:31]
A
All those sound vaguely ominous.
- [54:34]
B
Well, we could workshop it. I don't even know if people want it. If people want it, don't want it, never mention.
- [54:39]
A
It'd be really funny if just no one emailed us.
- [54:43]
B
If that's the case, I won't mention it again. Yeah, I won't mention it again unless someone says, do it. Mention it again.
- [54:50]
A
All right, well, listen well, you guys.
- [54:52]
B
That's my promise to you, the listener.
- [54:54]
A
Oh, my gosh. Okay, well, thank you. Thank you, Kevin, for your research, and thank you, the listeners, for listening. Are we quite done? You look. What are you doing?
- [55:05]
B
I'm just. I'm just looking at you looking at me. I don't know.
- [55:10]
A
What are you doing?
- [55:11]
B
I'm just over here living my life.
- [55:15]
A
Are you done?
- [55:16]
B
Yeah.
- [55:16]
A
Okay. So I can hit the button?
- [55:18]
B
Yes.
- [55:18]
A
Okay.
- [55:19]
B
Going into the next room. Thanks so much for listening to the murder Sheet. If you have a tip concerning one of the cases we cover, please email us@murdersheetmail.com. if you have actionable information about an unsolved crime, please report it to the appropriate authorities.
- [55:41]
A
If you're interested in joining our Patreon, that's available at www.patreon.com murdersheet. If you want to tip us a bit of money for records requests, you can do so at www. Buymeacoffee.com murdersheet. We very much appreciate any support.
- [56:05]
B
Special thanks to Kevin Tyler Greenlee, who composed the music for the Murder Sheet and who you can find on the web@Kevin TG.com if you're looking to talk
- [56:16]
A
with other listeners about a case we've covered, you can join the Murder Sheet Discussion Group on Facebook. We mostly focus our time on research and reporting, so we're not on social media much. We do try to check our email account, but we ask for patience as we often receive a lot of messages. Thanks again for listening. When you're a maintenance engineer in a beverage manufacturing plant, you keep production lines moving and quality on track because there is no room for slowdowns. With Grainger's vast selection of high quality motors, sensors, belts and hard to find parts, you can get what you need for fast and all in one place so nothing gets in the way of getting the job done. Call 1-800-GRAINGER Click grainger.com or just stop by Grainger for the ones who get it done. Grainger knows when you're a procurement manager for an office park, you're not managing one building, you're managing all of them. And to stay ahead, you need to see through walls and around corners. Lights about to fail, filters ready to clog hvac on its last leg. If you wait until something breaks, you're already behind. Count on Granger for quality products, easy reordering and 24.
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B
7 support.
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A
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