Anatomy of an Investigation: Crime Scene Investigation with Brian Olehy

Summary

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Murder Sheet Podcast

Episode Summary: Anatomy of an Investigation – Crime Scene Investigation with Brian Olahi

Date: March 3, 2026
Featured Guest: Brian Olahi, former Indiana State Police Crime Scene Investigator

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OVERVIEW

This episode of Murder Sheet launches the "Anatomy of an Investigation" mini-series, aimed at demystifying how real criminal investigations work, particularly the realities of Crime Scene Investigation (CSI). Hosts Áine Cain and Kevin Greenlee interview Brian Olahi, who draws from years of experience as a state trooper, detective, and seasoned crime scene investigator with the Indiana State Police. The discussion explores widespread myths (especially those created by television), the practicalities and challenges of thorough scene processing, the mental toll of the work, and what the public should realistically expect from CSI.

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KEY THEMES AND INSIGHTS

1. The "CSI Effect" and Media Myths

Timestamp: 03:46–09:22

• Pop Culture Distortions: Olahi emphasizes that popular TV series grossly over-simplify and glamorize crime scene work, creating the “CSI effect”—unrealistic public expectations regarding speed, glamour, and certainty of forensic results.
• Quote: "People watch a one hour show... and think that great bits of information can be gleaned from a scene... The CSI effect, as it's often referred to, has created an expectation from people about certain things because they saw it on TV."
  — Brian Olahi [04:13]
• Commentary on Forensic Evidence: He underscores that not every case yields clear, definitive forensic evidence, and that real investigations lack "aha moments" neatly packaged within an hour.
• Memorable Analogy: “You can make a puzzle fit together when all the pieces are squares. It's really easy to put it together. But a real Thousand piece miniature puzzle...that's the reality of a crime scene."
  — Brian Olahi [08:25]

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2. The Reality of Crime Scene Work

Timestamp: 09:22–15:54

• Volume and Type of Calls: Most of Olahi’s work was for small, rural agencies lacking their own CSI staff. Large cities have their own teams, but towns and counties rely on State Police for major or complex incidents.
• Multi-Agency Collaboration: Relationship-building is vital; local authorities often call Olahi directly for urgent or challenging cases.
• Bread-and-Butter Cases: Not all calls are homicides; Olahi worked many burglaries, vehicle thefts, and suicides—each processed with rigor due to the possibility that an apparent suicide could be staged.

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3. Step-By-Step: Responding to a Scene

Timestamp: 28:34–31:00, 32:26–34:51

• Initial Steps:

  • Ensure the scene is safe.
  • Secure the area to prevent evidence contamination.
  • Define the boundaries of the crime scene as broadly as needed.
  • Address legal considerations (warrants, permissions).
  • Begin thorough documentation—photographs starting from exterior to interior.

• Quote: "There's a protocol... obviously the first thing is is the scene safe...and then the security of the scene—is there anybody coming and going from it?"
  — Brian Olahi [28:42]

• Contamination Concerns: Immediate scene preservation is critical; sometimes evidence is lost if people have been in and out before investigators arrive.

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4. Processing and Documenting Evidence

Timestamp: 32:34–43:05

• Layer-by-Layer Approach: Investigators must peel back items, photograph before moving anything, and document every stage—likened to archaeological excavation.
• Autopsy Realities: Contrary to televised portrayals, real autopsies are often messy and rapid, sometimes taking under 20 minutes, which Olahi considers inadequate except in high-profile cases (e.g., Delphi murders) where thoroughness matters.
  • Quote: "I've seen forensic autopsies take less than 20 minutes...100 percent inappropriate."
    — Brian Olahi [34:57]
• Photography: Vital for every investigator; photographs are more reliable for court than video.
  • Quote: "If they can't document the scene accurately with photography, they have no business being in crime scene investigation."
    — Brian Olahi [37:47]
• CSI Myth-Busting: DNA and fingerprint matches are never instantaneous; tools like luminol (for detecting blood) and other tech are used sparingly and are not as flashy or conclusive as in fiction.

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5. The Human Side of CSI

Timestamp: 46:25–52:50

• Desensitization and Mental Health: Exposure to gore, death, and trauma becomes a "new normal," but can take a toll—detachment is necessary but challenging.
  • Quote: "Now, I mean, none of that stuff just like, I just don't even flinch...when you go to an autopsy, they don't have to be decayed to stink. We all stink on the inside."
    — Brian Olahi [46:59]
• Personal Trauma: Olahi shares that he retained autopsy photos of a murdered friend for years, underscoring how emotionally impactful the work can be.

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6. Independence and Teamwork

Timestamp: 53:00–55:10

• Division of Labor: Unlike TV, lead CSIs are rarely bossed around by detectives; experienced investigators—especially in rural areas—often shape the direction of the scene.
• Experience Matters: Olahi discusses differences between “technicians” and true investigative CSIs, and why seasoned judgment is crucial.

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7. When is a Crime Scene "Done"?

Timestamp: 55:10–61:31

• Knowing When to Stop: Investigators collect everything of potential value but must make practical decisions—there are limits to resources and storage.
• Quote: "As long as there's evidence to be collected, keep collecting evidence, and then you collect all the evidence. But...am I going to collect sticks that aren't going to have fingerprints... No."
  — Brian Olahi [55:10]
• Confirmation Bias Warning: The importance of not shaping evidence collection around pre-conceived suspects.

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8. Common Myths and Rapid-Fire Fact Checks

Timestamp: 68:28–83:05

Quick breakdown of TV tropes Olahi debunks:

• Every scene fully worked: Not true—realistic limits exist.
• Forensic tech is instant: False; results take days or weeks.
• Scientists = cops: Lab analysts are mostly civilians, not law enforcement.
• Fingerprints are perfect and fast: Analysis is time-consuming, and partial prints can be ambiguous.
• Glamorous, dramatic, and always successful: CSI is often painstaking, messy, and sometimes yields no solid leads.
• Vomiting at scenes is common: Rare; most officers acclimate quickly.
• One piece of evidence solves it all: Real cases require many corroborating clues.
• Everyone works every job: Reality is highly specialized; field investigators rarely do lab forensics and vice versa.

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Quote: "Most crimes are solved within a one hour episode. And like we said 100 times now, it just doesn't happen that way and sometimes it never happens."
— Brian Olahi [82:54]

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9. Advice to the Public About CSI and Trust in Law Enforcement

Timestamp: 83:51–88:42

• Balancing Standards and Expectations: The public is right to want high standards in forensics but must be realistic about evidence gaps—no DNA doesn't necessarily mean incompetence or conspiracy.
  • Quote: "We can have high expectations for CSI being done properly without necessarily having high expectations about... a forensic clue that's super important in every case."
    — Anya Cain [88:42]
• Restoring Trust: Law enforcement bears responsibility for restoring the public’s trust after missteps; the public can help by being good witnesses and resisting the urge for conspiracy-thinking over evidence.

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10. Reflecting on the Profession

Timestamp: 89:31–90:57

• On the Rewards of CSI: Despite hardships, Olahi valued being “part of the answer” and contributing to justice.
• Quote: "I like being part of the answer. And I had an opportunity in that line of work, doing crime scenes, to be part of the answer. So I like that. That's fun."
  — Brian Olahi [90:27]

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MEMORABLE MOMENTS & QUOTES

• “The idea of a perfect crime is not that there's no evidence left behind, but that you get away with it.”
  — Brian Olahi [04:13]
• "Being a good witness... that's heroic. If you're not willing to be part of the solution, you're part of the problem."
  — Brian Olahi [84:25]
• “You can't put the egg back in the shell.”
  — Brian Olahi, on the issue of public trust in law enforcement [87:53]

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TIMESTAMPS FOR IMPORTANT SEGMENTS

• 03:46–09:22: TV vs. Reality—“The CSI Effect”
• 10:45–15:54: How and why Olahi was called to cases; rural needs
• 28:34–31:00: Step-by-step CSI protocol at a new scene
• 32:34–34:51: Avoiding contamination and the “archaeological approach”
• 34:51–37:28: Realities and pitfalls of autopsies
• 37:47–40:50: Why photography trumps everything in documentation
• 55:10–61:31: How investigators know when they’re “done” at a scene
• 68:28–83:05: Rapid-fire myth-busting of TV CSI tropes
• 83:51–88:42: How the public should calibrate trust and expectations

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CONCLUSION

This episode offers an unvarnished, deeply knowledgeable look into the real world of crime scene investigation, directly challenging popular misconceptions. Brian Olahi provides humor, candor, and insight into both the scientific and human facets of his work—reminding listeners that forensics is a vital, but imperfect, pursuit. It is shaped by resources, experience, teamwork, and an unwavering commitment to objectivity and community service.

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Transcript

[Progressive Insurance Announcer]

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[Attorney Host]

Potential savings will vary Content Warning this episode includes discussion of sexual assault, murder and suicide.

[Anya Cain]

We've all seen the police procedurals that deal with crime scene investigation. Glowing lights showing blood spatter, investigators prancing around in designer clothing, DNA samples that get punched into a computer and matched in a matter of seconds.

[Attorney Host]

But what is Crime Scene Investigation really like? Of course we have a mini series called Anatomy of a Trial and we've had so many of you wonderful listeners reach out to us saying that hearing from attorneys has helped you understand criminal trials better. So we decided it was time for Anatomy of an Investigation. This series would do something similar to what the Trial series does, but for criminal investigations. We'll have law enforcement experts on to break down all aspects of a criminal investigation.

[Anya Cain]

Today we're thrilled to bring back a person we previously had on the show, Ryan Olahi. He previously worked with the Indiana State Police. For years he worked on the Delphi murders investigation. He has years of experience in law enforcement, serving as a state trooper, a detective, a public information officer, and a crime scene investigator. Ryan will offer his insight on crime scene investigation, walking us through how he used to tackle processing a scene, collecting evidence and attending autopsies, along with all of the annoying myths that he's seen about CSI out there in pop culture. My name is Anya Cain. I'm a journalist and I'm Kevin Greenlee.

[Attorney Host]

I'm an attorney.

[Anya Cain]

And this is the Murder Sheet.

[Attorney Host]

We're a true crime podcast focused on original reporting, interviews and deep dives into murder cases. We're the Murder Sheet.

[Anya Cain]

And this is Anatomy of an Investigation Crime Scene Investigation with Brian Olahi, I guess. Brian, we want to say thank you so much for joining us again. We really appreciate you having you back.

[Ryan Olahi]

Thanks for having me back. I mean, I've got to say that your editing probably made me sound good enough that people seem to have liked it. Or at least the number of social media accounts I had to create to give positive comments about myself to make myself look good. That my my spam accounts that I made and burner accounts to make my the comments good about me took me a long Time, but there was a lot of good comments, so definitely worth it.

[Anya Cain]

No, I think that was all you and not just because you had the fake comments, but it was actually people really enjoyed it.

[Ryan Olahi]

We really, I mean, yeah, you were very.

[Anya Cain]

And also for the record, you were a very light edit. I remember that.

[Ryan Olahi]

So we're going to talk a little

[Attorney Host]

bit about you works at CSI and the work of CSIS in general. And it's kind of an interesting subject because a lot of people think they know more about it than they do. There are things that people believe about this work and the results you get and the people who do this work that just aren't so. And I'm wondering, before we get into what it is like, can you talk to us about some of the things that people believe about this work that aren't true?

[Ryan Olahi]

Well, I mean, the reality of it is there are more television shows with the title CSI or related to csi. You know, all the CSI shows that are literally csi, name your town or bones or just, you know, even, to some extent, even the good ones delved into it at one point in time, like Law and Order. I was always a big fan of the original Law and Order and they delved into some of the things and they, they, they. People watch a one hour show or a three part miniseries and think that great bits of information can be gleaned from a scene. An affirmative, definitive determination can be made in the scope of a one hour show that actually runs 46 minutes. That CSI effect, as it's often referred to it has created an expectation from people about certain things because they saw it on tv. I mean I, I saw Star wars and I'm, you know, and I don't, I don't see lightsabers. The, the, the same kinds of things happen. I mean, if you let yourself be fooled by the tremendous writing and direction of people making theatrical, you know, television shows that are thought provoking or pick on one peace, that is the aha moment. And you, you want the aha moment. That's what we all are accustomed to because of, you know, movies and television shows and, and, and those sort of things. And I'm, I've said it here and I've learned it. I said it the last time I was on. You know, the absence of evidence is not evidence of innocence. The idea of a perfect crime is not that there's no evidence left behind, but that you get away with it. That's the perfect crime. That you don't get caught. Like you never get caught, you know, and you know, Locard's principle and the touch principles of all of these different ideas that, you know, we always leave something behind doesn't necessarily mean that you're going to find it. You know, if there's one hair left behind and you find it, great, there's one cartridge of a firearm left behind, great. We find it. If we don't, it doesn't help. Like, then you don't find it. A true crime scene investigator and even a, you know, just a box checking crime scene technician will do all of the steps necessary to find what's there based upon a myriad of pieces of information. And there are a lot of myths and theories about things that happen or go on at crime scenes or what you see on tv. I mean, you know, when we were talking here before, they are all supermodels on tv and it's all the, and as I told you, I'm just going to dime him out. The only one, the only crime scene investigator that I know that should be on the Runway in Milan is Jason Page, without doubt. I mean, he, he, you know, his second calling should have, should be or should have been as a supermodel. I mean, he's just that amazing. I couldn't, I couldn't do it with straight face. I guess I tried. So, yeah, no, I mean, it just. And, and, and they, they often, so often they go in and they're wearing a suit, you know, into a crime scene and they're working a crime scene in, you know, high heels or Gucci loafers, you know, and those are just not reality. I mean, I, I tried to always wear bad stuff, you know, that I could be happy to throw away if it got contaminated, you know, beyond even the protective equipment that we wore, whether it was a, you know, a hazmat suit or a mask or, you know, in the gloves that we wear. I mean, you as a crime scene investigator, you go through boxes and boxes of rubber gloves just in protecting the scene and preserving the evidence. So there are just so many things that purports to TV that create a myth or an image or an idea that I saw it on tv, I know it's right, I know it's real. And yeah, I mean, you can write it in and. But the writer already knows the ending when he writes it. He knows where he's going with it and that you can make a puz puzzle. You know, you can make a puzzle fit together when all the pieces are squares. It's really easy to put it together. But when there are actual, like a real Thousand piece miniature puzzle that you're trying to put together. That's the reality of a crime scene. And crime scenes are different. They're unique. They're all separate. I mean, from the most heinous crime scenes with multiple victims of death to a simple burglary at your grandma's house where they stole her, her diam, you know, she got back in World War II from her boyfriend. So, I mean, it's the same principles, though, going in to examine it and to work the scene and the same ideas and you approach it the same way.

[Anya Cain]

So I feel like there's also an element, because you mentioned the fictional side of things. But even in the nonfiction media journalism podcast True Crime docu series, I feel like CSI has almost been a victim of its own success, where we hear about the success stories, we hear about the single hair found at the scene that broke everything open. But then the public comes to expect that in every single case at all times.

[Ryan Olahi]

I mean, I used to say that, and this was even before I was, you know, when I was a detective and when I was a patrol officer with the state police, that in order to get a conviction on a speeding ticket, you're going to need DNA to prove that that was the person actually driving the car. Like, you know, I need your driver's license and open up your mouth. I'm going to swab the inside of your cheek to compare it to, you know, the expectation is, is probably so over the top on a lot of things that we, we do. And a lot of it is it's television and, and social media and the Internet and things that we read and believe that I don't know what. Wasn't it Twain, Mark Twain, that said something about, you know, something to the effect of, you know, you know, what you know, until you don't know what you didn't know or you thought you knew or something to that effect. Like, we like finite, we like finish, and we like things wrapped up in a neat bow, and we want someone accountable for everything. There's not always that resolution in the end, unfortunately.

[Anya Cain]

Absolutely. So I want to talk through sort of the experience of a CSI and sort of maybe an approach that would be taken for most investigations, obviously with the caveat that every crime scene and every investigation is going to be somewhat different. But starting out with how would you usually get assigned to a case or how would you usually learn about a case?

[Ryan Olahi]

Well, I mean, as a refresher, I work for the Indiana State Police. I was a crime scene investigator for the state Police. And I would say no more. In a given year, no more than 15% and probably closer to 10% of the. The crime scenes and cases that I would pull or work in my role were for the state police. Most of them were for other agencies, in particular smaller, more rural agencies. Indianapolis is a larger metropolitan police department in Indiana. They have, you know, a crime scene staff within Marion county, where Indianapolis is, that covers them. So the state police doesn't work a lot of basic crime scenes in those metropolitan areas or where there is a larger presence like Fort Wayne or Evansville. I mean even Lafayette. Lafayette, Indiana has experienced officers who are trained in evidence collection and crime scene management. And only occasionally would we go into Lafayette and maybe a assist them with something very specific or very technical. Sometimes scanning with ferro scanners or just because of the size and scope of a scene, we might help them with aspects of it, but fully working them. Our bread and butter was the town marshals in Indiana, where there's a one or two or four man department or a small town that may have a 12 or 15 man department, or the rural sheriff's departments where they have 16, 18, 24, 30 officers, but they don't have a full time dedicated person, nor is it a good use of financial resources of the taxpayers of that area to have someone full time doing crime scene investigation. Managing that evidence is just, they don't have the volume of it to justify the time, the cost and the effort and the cost of training. I mean, there's an annual training and retraining that crime scene investigators go to in addition to what's required as a sworn law enforcement officer in Indiana. Agencies are now transitioning. Even the state police is transitioning since I've left to hiring civilian crime scene investigators. And they're college educated. Some of them may have more experience than others. I have my opinions about, you know, are they investigators, are they technicians? What is their role and that, what experiences do they have? I mean, you can teach somebody to be book smart, but and even somebody with common sense. There's a level of experience to work in crime scenes that comes with years like sawing the tree open and looking at the rings inside, you know, if you saw me open, you know, and look at me, there's a lot of experience and a lot of things I've been a part of and places I've worked and trainings that I've done. The same with Scott Gilbert, the same with Jason Page, definitely the same with Dean Marks. Like who is our, you know, our guru. If you look at those Things and the experience that we had, you know, just. I just told you today we were all together for lunch to celebrate one of Nikki, one of our very dedicated civilian employees that manages our evidence at the Lafayette Post. I was thinking as we were sitting there having lunch celebrating Nikki's 20 years with the state police, how much experience was sitting at that table just between Dean Marks, between Jason Page, Scott Gilbert, Dwayne Datsman and myself, Just a number of years of law enforcement experience and crime scene experience. I was blessed to work with those people. I was blessed to be trained by those people. So I feel like when I got called to a scene, you were getting not only my experience, but you were getting experience passed on from all of them. So, yeah, I guess I'm kind of dancing around a question, you know, how I would get called or how I would get notified or how I'd get involved. Is that because we're working them for other agencies? You know, a phone call would oftentimes come into the local state police post, but quite frankly, most of the calls came directly to me because I maintained a relationship with the counties that I was directly assigned and the agencies that I directly worked with. I kept an open line of communication with their investigators at the counties I worked and with the chiefs and the sheriffs in those counties so that they knew that they could call me and they didn't have to go through someone trying to find a number, get my number, call me, call me out, get a hold of me. They could just call me direct. And they knew also that I was going to pick up the phone whether 24, 7, 365. And that's the way Scott and Dean and Dwayne and Jason and I all worked. And we worked closely together, you know, and during our time together. And that's the way I want it to be now. It's just, you know, a citizen not in state police law. Well, I guess I'm still in state police law enforcement, just a different agency, but not for the state police.

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[Anya Cain]

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[Attorney Host]

I mentioned earlier that a crime scene can be anything from like a quadruple homicide to a burglary. Where most of the crime scenes you were called out to do, they involved death. Death.

[Ryan Olahi]

I mean I'd say it's a, It's a pretty 50, 50 kind of 60, 40 split. I mean I got called to a lot of burglaries because of the rural areas that we lived in and that I was assigned to. I got called to a lot of vehicle thefts and processing vehicles quite frequently. Several times I processed vehicles that would get towed into the post in Lafayette and they'd been, you know, in some sort of a altercation and there were bullet holes in the vehicle. So we also got called to a lot of death in terms of not in a nefarious way, but a lot of suicides. And you know, people might, why, you know, if it's not criminal, then why are, why is it, why are you being called to a suicide? Somebody's hanging, they obviously killed themselves. Well, did they hang themselves? Did somebody else have a hand in it? Did someone assist them? Did someone force them? Is it made to look like that? And I mean I went to a lot of suicides. One county and one sheriff in that county said, you know, we're not going to miss one. So anytime my directive to my officers is if there's a suicide, no matter how clear it looks to them, they call you. Because he just didn't want to take a chance of some day later somebody saying, you know, the real story behind that is, you know, he, you know, he didn't shoot himself, somebody else shot him. You know, somebody was messing around on somebody or somebody owed somebody money, or it was a drug deal going bad and they made it look like a suicide. Maybe they did, maybe they didn't. But, you know, if we investigate it, when we have it and have the opportunity, it's important to do it. We don't want a solved crime to become an unsolved crime after the fact. One of the things that, you know, we. You then. Then you're talking about an exhumation and trying to do things after the fact. And I went through three or four exhumations in my career, which are kind of few and far between. Like, from a television standpoint, it looks like that's a pretty frequent thing. Like, you see that a lot. Like. But that's pretty rare, actually, because there are a lot of hoops to jump through to get that done. You know, television in general, not just crime scene, but television in general, displays and portrays law enforcement very inaccurately. There are snippets of, like, accuracy and realism. And I mean, they may get officers who are SWAT officers to, like, how do you go? How do you clear a room? Okay, we can make actors look like they're real SWAT officers clearing a room, but it's not the same. I mean, you can look like it. I mean, it portrays law enforcement in a completely different way. Like, you would think that officers draw their service weapons on a routine and regular basis because of all the things that happen to this one. You know, this one detective on this one show, like, I don't know. I mean, just think of a detective show that was on TV for more than five years and how many times the lead detective pulled his gun and shot somebody or shot at somebody. Like, if that was a real world, you'd probably be in front of Internal affairs and wouldn't. Wouldn't be back out on the road because after the third or fourth time you shoot somebody, justified or not, the odds of you being involved in that many shootings, like, it's. It's kind of becomes like the. What's the common denominator in this? So where's the real problem? So. So. Yeah, that's a good point.

[Anya Cain]

It's like they're taking the most interesting things.

[Ryan Olahi]

They shove all the interesting stuff onto one person, and it creates a reality of. That's what law enforcement's like. Now, it can be, as I told you the last time, like, my. My most realistic show was Reno 911 because it's so bombastically crazy and so filled with, like, the. The things that you'd be like. That never happens. And then you walk out and like, ah, that'll never happen. And then 10 minutes later you called to it and like, it's the craziness. And there are, I mean, people are characters. People who are the police are characters. And I mean, if you go back to the foundation of modern policing, the 1829 Metropolitan Police act written by Robert Peel in London, that created what we know as modern law enforcement, one of Peel's tenants and one of the supervisors that he appointed, Rowan and Maine, one of them, wrote something that the police are the people and the people are the police. And an expectation that your police are perfect is unrealistic. An expectation that your police uphold a higher standard is completely realistic. But are you going to have officers who. Things happen and they become not the people we want them to be? Yeah, just like the citizens do. Like we all. It's not like, well, you're either the police or you're bad. It doesn't work that way. Like, we all expect everyone to be good and behave and be orderly. Getting called to scenes is. There are any number of ways you get called to a scene. You know, sometimes it's a phone call, sometimes it's a dispatch from the Post, but usually it's a phone call that, you know, XYZ or has happened and this is a number or this is where it's at. And sometimes you call. I had times when. And I don't, I'm not gonna, I'm not gonna stay anybody's name but. Or agency or anything like that, but I had times when I'd get called for, hey, we had this happen. XYZ happened and there's a gun in the front yard of the house and we need, we need you to collect it. I'm like, you need me to process a crime scene or you need me to pick up a gun and put it in a bag for you? Well, we just need to collect it. You can't do that. Well, we're not, we're not. Crime scene. Look, all you got to do, it's evidence like anything else. I mean, if an officer on patrol stops somebody and finds drugs in the car, they don't call a crime scene investigator to come and pick up the dope that they find and package it for them. It's packaging evidence. It's basic law enforcement practice. Like, you know, so picking up one piece of evidence that is at a scene that is important isn't what I get called to or shouldn't get called to, should not have been called to, nor did I go to After I told them, you can see. Package your. Yeah, yeah, we don't have a dump button here. Yeah, I mean, sometimes it would be that, like. And. But I'd also have times when I would get called from an officer or sometimes from a coroner, and they'd say, like, you know, I don't. I don't know that I need you. I just want to. I just want to pick your brain. Like, this is what I'm seeing. Like, what does this mean to you? This is this, and that's that. And, you know, are you seeing this? Yeah. I said, well, it's probably this. I mean, you know, I come if you need me. Like, no, I think I got it now. Like that. Sometimes it's just like anything. Like, if you aren't experienced in something or until you've become more comfortable with it, sometimes you just want somebody in your professional life to, like, just tell you, yeah, you're doing a good job. Keep going. And that would happen a lot of times. And I would say that, you know, I know Jason has had that happen. Jason Page has had that happen. I know other crime scene investigators have had that happen. I mean, those are all things that routinely happen. So. But sometimes you just get called and it's the middle. Middle of the night, and, like, they'll give you an address and a place, and you go and, you know, it might be a burglary at a house, and somebody came home after being out at a movie or at a high school football game, and they came home and their house has been broken into. And I was like, all right, you get there and you tell the people, it's going to be three, four, five hours. You got someplace you can stay tonight? It's. It's a. It's midnight. I'm going to be in here for probably three, four, five hours. You know, you can sit outside, but, you know, you can't come in and disturb stuff. I'm going to go through and I'm going to process the scene. I'm going to document and look for, you know, points of entry. I'm going to look for footprints. I'm going to look for fingerprints. I'm gonna look for what's been disturbed and try to find. I'm gonna try to walk in the shoes of the person that came in and did this.

[Attorney Host]

You mentioned, like, sometimes they just give you the address. Would you literally just get the address? Were they giving more information about the scene you're about to walk?

[Ryan Olahi]

I mean, I guess I would say usually it would be like, anything, everything's different. You know, it might be 3 o' clock in the morning. The phone would ring and you get a phone call and it's like, you know, Deputy. Deputy Smith with, you know, any. Any county USA is at a burglary in, you know, on. Here's the address and here's the deputy's phone number. Like, pick up the phone, hang up from, you know, the post, or hang up the phone from the first call and call the deputy. Like, what do you got? Okay. All right, I'm gonna put some clothes on. I'm gonna get in the truck. You know, I got the address, I punched it into my maps. Says it's about 45 minutes. I'll be there in 45, 50 minutes, you know, so. Okay, okay. You know, and a lot of times they'll tell you, like, family came home. I didn't, you know, I cleared the house. I just went in and made sure there wasn't anybody else still in there. The family's outside, you know, And I would tell them, I would always try to call them, like, all right, who's in the house? Who's been in the house? Is there anything that, like, do they have medication? They absolutely have to have to live. Then, you know, put some booties on, put some gloves on. You go in, get the stuff, bring it out to them. Don't disturb anything, don't touch anything, don't move anything. And I mean, I'd also always ask, like, has anybody already contaminated or destroyed the scene? Or. Or you might. I mean, there would be times you get called and like, hey, this guy called this morning at 9. It's now 9am it's now 9pm his house got broke into. He's been in the house all day, and now he thinks he wants a report. Can you come out and work the scene? Like, yeah, I'll come out and take a look. But it's most likely if he's been in the house for the last 12 hours, you know, well, there's some glass. He cleaned the glass up, you know, Then what is it? Like, I'm, you know, and I need it fresh. I mean, and the fresher the better. The sooner the better, the quicker the better, the more you can get out of it.

[Anya Cain]

Was a murder relatively rare or homicide relatively rare, or was, you know, just in the scope of the cases you

[Ryan Olahi]

were doing usually, I mean, I think. I think I would say

[Anya Cain]

it would

[Ryan Olahi]

seem to go in spurts. You might get two or three in a short period of time. Then you might go six months, nine months. I mean, some guys maybe go a year in some areas, in some parts of the state of Indiana, I mean outside of some pockets in the state of Indiana that are high crime rate, I mean, obviously the murder rate in, the murder rate in Indianapolis is something that's always on everybody's mind and on the news and has elevated. I know Chief Bailey's working to change that, that. But you know, outside of that, you know, you get into rural areas, there are counties in Indiana that might go 10 or 15 years without a murder or longer. I think if you look at the stats for Indiana, that it's a pretty safe place to live. I mean it's very, it's very Midwest, it's very open, it's very rural, it's very Americana, very, you know, almost Norman Rockwell. In some areas to this day. It is, it's very Midwest. It's very look out for your neighbor, check on your neighbor kind of thing. For the most part part in general, I mean they're, I, I don't, I don't deal with anything that is alls and everys, but so, and then, you

[Anya Cain]

know, you arrive at the scene. How does the CSI typically then approach and how do, what's the first kind of steps you take?

[Ryan Olahi]

Well, I mean there's, there's, there's a protocol, there's just basically this, that, you know, the Indiana State Police uses a seven step protocol at least during my time. And you know, I've been, I've been out of the game for, for over three years now. But there's a protocol that you, you utilize. And then, you know, obviously the first thing is is the scene safe? Like make sure that it's safe for you, safe for the people around and then the security of the scene and is the scene secure? Is there anybody coming and going from it? Has anybody else got access to it? That's the, you know, okay, I'm coming to the. Your burglary at this house, keep the family out. You know, if you'd have to go in, do this, do this and do this. Then you try to determine what is your crime scene. You know, how big is it? You know, you try not to too narrowly define it originally and you don't want to make it too broad from the start either, like, because that can just waste time. You know, if it's a house, you know, whether it's a burglary or a homicide, if it's in a house, then the whole house is a crime scene because you don't know where you're going to Find stuff. And then you also have to consider your ability as law enforcement. What is your ability to be in that space? Do whose permission do you need? Whose permission do you have? Whose permission do you need to get? Or do you need a warrant in order to affect an examination of that scene? You know, I spent a lot of time at crime scenes waiting on warrants to be written up. And, you know, there's a guy that. He's a detective in one of the rural counties now. And, you know, I used to ask him, like, you know, man, I've been here. He'd finally show up with the warrant. Be like, did you. Did you use the chisel and etch this probable. This search warrant that you took to the judge? You, you know, Fred Flintstone it on a tablet, you know, or Moses or what? Like, because, like, because I. And then I'd read it and it's like, you know, gosh, that's a novel. Like, you got three chapters to this search warrant. Like, come on. But, I mean, it's better to be thorough. But then, you know, you just. You basically need to know what your scene is, what you're looking for, what you should be seeing, what you shouldn't be seeing, what things you might find. And then, you know, begin to document the scene. Like, if it's house, you start photographing the outside first. Like, this is how it was when I got here. This is what it looked like when I was here. And this is what I can tell you. This is how I found it. These photos are a true and accurate depiction of the scene as I found it.

[Anya Cain]

Were you ever at a scene that turned out not to be safe, or was that something that never came up?

[Ryan Olahi]

I mean, I guess you had to define safe. And everybody's terms of safe are completely different. A lot of people would be a badly decayed body with a house that's not, well, kempt and maybe full of germs and disease may not be that safe, but that didn't really scare me. But I never had a scene where there was still a suspect unlocated inside a scene. But I've heard of guys having that same problem. Like, you know, hey, there was a shooting here. And there's, you know, we searched for the guy and never found him. And then, you know, three hours into process in the scene, the.

[Anya Cain]

The.

[Ryan Olahi]

The CSI heard somebody, you know, moving around upstairs in the attic. And like, hey, guys, guys, come back. I think he's up here. You know, And I mean, that's. That's. I know that's Happened. I know guys that's happened too, you know, and, and that's one. That's the nice thing for me. When I was a crime scene investigator with the state police, I was a state police officer. I mean, I had a gun on me, I had a badge on me. Like I wasn't going to be, you know, I cleared a lot of my own scenes. Like, I'd go to scene sometimes and the deputy was there. Like, I relieved the deputy was here before me. I haven'. Gone inside. I don't think he went inside, you know, so you go in, you like, clear the house, like, make sure nobody's in there. You know, somebody broke in this house. They're not still in the closet, are they? So, you know, you go through and make it safe for yourself first.

[Anya Cain]

That makes sense. And then how would you approach different aspects of the scene, avoiding, you know, possibly destroying evidence as you move?

[Ryan Olahi]

I'm definitely not dainty afoot, but. But yeah, I mean, to keep from destroying evidence. I mean, you obviously want to photograph it before you begin to touch it or mess with it or do anything with it. You know, a lot of times you'd get stuff like burglaries and scenes of theft or where somebody had to move something that. Or like stolen cars. A lot you get crap in cars, just stuff like in the back seat or whatever because somebody maybe stole it and lived in it for a couple of days and was partying in it. Then you just, you know, with it. Like it's layers. Like, you know, we, we. Life is layers. And, and you start, this is how it was. I found it. And then you take three or four items off. You maybe you photograph those three or four individual items and you go back and you take a picture of it now that you've taken them off and like, you just peel it back in layers. It's like an onion. Like, you just peel it.

[Anya Cain]

You're like an archeologist excavating.

[Ryan Olahi]

Yeah, I mean, and, and, and I've seen that. I mean, some of the exclamations I've been to were with forensic anthropologists. And they're. They're much, you know, know, more delicate than, than. Than we are when it comes to examining, seeing, particularly when they get close to where they believe, you know, the body is or maybe bones are, or something to that effect. You know, we talked last time about autopsies, like, not being. That's another thing that's portrayed on TV completely differently. Like they're in sterile environments and clean and nice and very, very dainty. With the scalpel so as not to, you know, these are not the procedures that autopsies are like. They're very. Just, it's, it's, it's not what you expect at all from what you've seen on TV or what you've seen in a movie, you know, depicting an autopsy. It's, it's a very gory, gruesome, fast examination. And I quite honestly, I mean a lot of them are claimed to be forensic autopsies in this state and they're just very, if it looks like a duck and it looks, you know, quacks like a duck, that's probably what killed them and what they died of and all right, everything else, you know, we'll check everything else, but we're gonna get to the heart of the matter first.

[Anya Cain]

Like are they just happening just more quickly or is it like just messier than people are used to or like

[Ryan Olahi]

are they happening autopsy specifically? Yeah, I've seen forensic autopsies take less than 20 minutes. Sense. Do you think that's a, that's inappropriate?

[Anya Cain]

Yeah.

[Ryan Olahi]

100 inappropriate.

[Anya Cain]

Yeah.

[Ryan Olahi]

And I would say that is closer to the norm than for example, the Delphi murders. Those autopsies each took over three hours. And that's what I would, that's closer to what I would expect. I mean, maybe even more than I would expect from a forensic autopsy. I would expect a head to toe analysis. Looking for everything, I mean and ruling everything out, you know, that I'm looking at this body. There's no needle marks, there's no, there's no western timber rattler fang marks in the body. So like I'm looking for everything. I'm combing the hair with a fine tooth comb literally straight out of spaceballs, you know, combing the desert. So like just looking everywhere for anything that might be part of the reason or manner or cause of death. I, I think I know it's just, it's, it's an unfortunate way, way of doing things. There are places that do a much better job of, of doing forensic autopsies and other states where they have procedures in place that I think are much more professional than the system in, in place. In Indiana medical examiners, you know, I, I, I champion the idea of a state medical examiner's office. It would, it would be money well spent, it would be taxpayer money well spent to know that, that a higher standard is held. I mean there are some excellent forensic pathologists in the state. I still think Doctor, Dr. Darren Wolfe is an excellent example and he, you know, he has A very strong presence on social media and, and explains things very well. And like, he just tells it like it is. And every time I went to an autopsy with Dr. Wolf, I learned something, like, I learned something new about the human anatomy or the human body or, or what the skull key is actually called. So I mean, just strange things like,

[Anya Cain]

what is it actually called? Called.

[Ryan Olahi]

Yeah, you're gonna put me on the spot now. It's a doctor's name. It's not Glockauer. Clockauer. Anyway, I'm just mentally drawing a blank. But it. And he was exceptionally proud of Dr. Wolf, was exceptionally proud of the fact that the person who invented that, he was in the lineage of his tutelage, but based on that guy invented it and was a teacher and taught people who taught Dr. Wolf.

[Anya Cain]

So it's like his ancestor, his medical ancestor.

[Ryan Olahi]

Yeah, yeah. Well, it's like a coaching tree for a football coach.

[Attorney Host]

Kind of touched on this a little bit. But pretty basic question, why is photography so important and so crucial?

[Ryan Olahi]

I mean, that's the ultimate thing that a crime scene investigator has to be good at, that they have to be able to document the scene. If they can't document the scene accurately with photography, they have no business being in crime scene investigation. That's your primary responsibility, is to document what's there. That's the first thing you have to be proficient at. So that I can say, look, investigator or detective, this is the scene. This is what I see. This is what's here. I'm not just telling you that. This is what I saw. Here's a picture of what I saw. Saw. So here's a wide picture and then here's a more narrow picture. Here's a macro up close picture of a patent fingerprint in the dirt on the, you know, the window or the dirt on the ledge of the window or whatever it is, like, or, you know, a footprint in blood. Like, these are things that I see. You know, there's, there is a distinctive and identifying mark on that footwear that says it's this brand, you know, and then we can look at the pattern and match it up. And now you have something to go look for, but I can also show that to you. And then when they're done with it, they can show it to a prosecutor. Look, this is what our investigator, crime scene investigator, found. This is what I went looking for. And then I found it on the foot of this person. And it matches, and it matches this unique mark that's also there. And it's almost like a fingerprint, like this footprint in this blood know, doesn't tell you that that person killed them, but it tells you that they were there at or near the same time that this person had a bloodletting event that led to a loss of life. So being able to document that and then showing it to a judge to get a warrant, you know, judge, this is evidence that we have. And then taking that and showing it to a jury and explaining to a jury what it is, how you got it, why you were there, what you did, how you got it, how you collected it, and why you think it matches and why it is definitively this person. You know, shoe prints.

[Anya Cain]

Sort of like preserving the scene in photographs for posterity.

[Ryan Olahi]

Absolutely. And it's, it's far better than, than video. Video can be jumpy. It's just not. I mean, everybody, like we live in a GoPro world of 363, 360 degree video and, and, and being tracked and watched by security and surveillance cameras everywhere we go. But a still photograph captures that moment and that image as a piece of time, you know, and in a timeline. It fits that scene perfectly as you found it. When you took that, when you depress to take the, you know, to move the shutter or in the digital age with a mirrorless camera to just, you know, get the image captured on the storage device, those are, it's exactly what you see. As you see it, you can show that, you can reprint it, you can show it to everybody and everybody's going to get the same image.

[Anya Cain]

Yeah, I remember it struck me and I still think about this sometimes in our previous conversation where you mentioned Jason Page, with his artistic background, being able to even just sort of tell a story a little bit with some of the images.

[Ryan Olahi]

Yeah, I did two photos, one blurry and one in focus with the Christmas card and the body in the background. And the Christmas card was from the killer like it was her. Yeah, and that one was exceptional. But Jason, we just talked about. Jason knew I was going to be on and do another episode with you and we talked about it and that people get wrapped up in the CSI effect with all the fancy tools. Like I take my phone and I, and oh, that fingerprint belongs to. It's instantaneous. Or I take a little swab and I stick it in something that's attached to the, you know, the device, you know, the end of my phone with a usb and oh, look at that. DNA. That's, that's the killer. The killer is, you know, that, that's how it works. Because DNA could potentially be A positive, a DNA match can be made in as little as 24 hours. If you take and stop everything else you're working on and work on that and that alone. And I've, I've had that happen when we had to identify someone for death. Like we don't know who this person is. They died in a fire. You know, we need to, to identify him and we can get that done. But identifying a suspect isn't necessarily going to solve the person. The victim's already dead. Capturing the person by stopping every other investigation isn't necessarily, you don't know that that's going to happen. Now tv, you build a plot so you know it's going to be that person because you're watching the show and you're like, everything points to that person. That person's going to have to get arrested. Then we're going to have an end of the show and everybody's going to be happy. You know, it wraps it up. But that's why it happens that way in tv because a, it fits the theme, it fits the plot. It was already written before, you know, you knew what the end was gonna be before you wrote how you were gonna get to the end. And it needs to be wrapped up in 46 minutes on an hour long show. And life doesn't actually work that way.

[Anya Cain]

Yeah. As you said, like, it's just no one wants to see a show that has a detective filling out paperwork while waiting for DNA to come.

[Ryan Olahi]

Just filling out the paperwork to submit it to the lab to get the lab work done would be excruciatingly boring to watch.

[Anya Cain]

Yeah. So instead everyone's shooting each other and doing interesting things and they're writing these kind of unrealistic and fictitious ways of expediting things. And I just, you know, it's one thing for it to be fantasy and whatnot, but you know, know, I think it's really important that people separate it.

[Ryan Olahi]

We have, and this is, this is a good segue. It's a Verkal key for a skull. But I got that because while we're sitting here talking, I used my phone and Google to remember what it was. And we have in the palm of our hand something that is the best tool that can tell us all kinds of information that is accurate in seconds. It's also the same device that can give us 180 degrees the other way that is 100% inaccurate at the same time. And people are going to choose to believe what they believe. They're going to choose to believe that I Don't believe that this happened this way. I think it happened this way because I read it on this bulletin board and I saw it here. And that's what I'm going to believe, and that's what I'm going to stick to, because, by golly, that's just the way I want it to be. And I saw. It looks like a TV show that I saw, and it kind of reminds me of that. And I think that's what's going on here. And that's just not, you know, reality like we were talking about. And I said it on the last episode that I was on. I don't get paid any different whether the person gets convicted or gets found innocent. I don't get paid any different if the person never gets caught. I have a job to do, and I go out and I collect it the best way I know how. I don't have a dog in the fight. I don't care who the person is or isn't that's convicted. I don't care who the victim is or isn't. I have compassion for them, but I detach myself from. I'm the finder of fact. I'm the finder of information. And whatever that information is, I don't tailor it. I don't switch it. I don't change it. It is what it is, and I can't change it.

[Anya Cain]

Yeah. Yeah. That is really well said. And also just a disturbingly accurate portrayal of how I see a lot of things in true crime. It's like this. I want it to be something different. I want it to be a conspiracy. I want it to be this guy. Not that.

[Ryan Olahi]

Wouldn't that be fun? Yeah. If they were all conspiracies.

[Anya Cain]

Choose your own adventure. Yeah, right. I'm like.

[Ryan Olahi]

Like those books you read when you're a kid. Like, you know, with the different endings. You get to pick your own ending.

[Anya Cain]

You do. You do in this reality.

[Ryan Olahi]

That's the book you need to write next. No,

[Anya Cain]

that's so awful. Like, I can't. Oh, my God. We could probably do it, because I. I remember reading those, but I just like. Yeah, but it's. It's like, you're so right.

[Ryan Olahi]

It's.

[Anya Cain]

I call it. Let me speak to the manager. True crime. You know, it's like, you know, I didn't order this. Like, this isn't what I ordered. I ordered a conspiracy. And, like, I want that to be validated. And then you're gonna seek out the. The places that validate you on that.

[Ryan Olahi]

I. I distinctly Remember in like fourth grade, my teacher reading us the Harlow Thornby book as a kid's book that had multiple endings.

[Anya Cain]

You also talked about like, you know, kind of detaching a little bit. And that does actually segue nicely into what I wanted to ask you about, you know, in terms of like dealing. And I know like this probably is some degree felt by all people who are first responders of some kind, but like having to deal with things like gore or you know, just even dead bodies, even if the scene's not particularly super gory. How do you get, how do you get used to that? I imagine you coming from the law enforcement, you know, background and then shifting into the CSI role. Like you're already kind of used to it. But like how do you, how do you deal with that and kind of not let it disturb you too much?

[Ryan Olahi]

I would, would, I would say two things. I guess it's a lot like I'm a history buff. I like, like my favorite thing to watch is, is Band of Brothers. Like I could watch that over and over. Like. But someone, I went, I went to a thing with someone once and they used clips from it and not as historical perspective but as a, a leadership training principles. Because if you watch that every kind of leadership is on display at some point and time. You know, everything from, you know, an ineptness of Sobel, but with a genius of whipping them into shape, you know, versus, you know, Sink's leadership versus the, the peaceful, pacifistic almost. I'll go first, I'll lead from the front of Dick Winters. Like that's the kind of stuff like so, but those guys had to go into war. Like I, I can't imagine what all out war is like, like what they, they witnessed, but they had to go through it and they had at some point to get used to it. So I mean you just get used to a new normal. I was thinking about this just recently. I was thinking about when I was in college and I was, I was, I was at the Illinois State Police Academy doing an internship in Springfield, Illinois. And one of the guys had been a crime, had been a crash reconstructionist in Chicago before he worked at the academy and he was one of the sergeant at the academy and he was showing me some pictures from one of the crashes that he'd worked and the, a guy had actually jumped off of an overpass in one of the, the overpasses in Chicago and then got run over and, and I remember him showing me those pictures and like it kind of turned my stomach. Like I Didn't really like to look at it, but I was, you know, I was a 21, 22 year old kid, you know. Now, I mean, none of that stuff just like, I just don't even flinch. Like, I don't, like I tell my wife, like, I just don't have that sense of smell, of disgust anymore. Like when you've been in, when you go to an autopsy, they don't have to be decayed to stink. We all stink on the inside. I mean, it just is. Like there's nobody that you cut them open, it's going to smell like roses. It just doesn't happen. Like, we all stink. But I mean, when you start getting, you know, bodies that have been in water for days and days and they begin to putrefy, like there's people like, you just say those kind of things to them and it turns their stomach and it's just. Yeah, no, like, and I know guys that are kind of crime scene investigator, crime scene technicians who don't like gore. They don't like going to autopsies. Now I, I always learned something. If there was a state medical examiner's office in Indiana and they needed an investigator to go to all the autopsies, I'd, I'd volunteer for that. Like, I, I learned something. I think the anatomy inside the body is amazing and, and the strange things that happen, like oddities like these still, I remember one time the stalactite pieces, like inside of a skull cap, like, went down into the brain. They were like, they were like st. Tights in a cave, but they were down into the brain. It's a natural, common occurrence and it's just rare, but to actually see one. I know Dwayne had the case that I helped at the autopsy of the woman who got strangled by a snake. You know, a giant, giant, you know, constricting snake. Like, that was a cool autopsy to go to. I, I know that Dr. Wolf did that autopsy. He was going to write a paper on it. I don't know that he ever did, but he was going to write a paper on it because it's an oddity and a rarity. But there was a ligature mark around her neck, just like there's a ligature mark when somebody hangs themselves or somebody chokes somebody. But that ligature mark was the size of that snake's body, just like the size of a ligature mark of a rope. You know, I mean, I don't know how you get used to it. Like, it's. Time passes and then you do Detach but you also have a job. I mean, I knew I had a job to do. Like, I didn't have time to, like, go out and get sick or be like, oh, I don't. I'm not touching that. Like, And I know there. There are crime scene investigators who'd like, all right, I took my pictures. I'm done in here. You can have the body corner. And I was always the guy like, all right, bring me the body bag. Let's get it loaded up. And I'd, you know, get dirty and nasty, and I'd usually take the cleaner of the two ends, but whichever was it is. But, you know, I was there to, you know, let's get it done. The sooner we get done, the sooner we all get to go home.

[Anya Cain]

So that snake thing sounds like out of a Sherlock Holmes short story. Like, the speckled fans.

[Ryan Olahi]

There's a whole story to that one, too. So I still don't. Still don't know how.

[Anya Cain]

Like, yeah, that's truly crazy. And so it sounds like, did it bother you in the beginning? But you just kind of got through

[Ryan Olahi]

it, I think as I became an officer, I mean, and just working over the years, by the time I got to crime scene, I'd been to several autopsies when I was, you know, an officer on the road and had some things happen that I had to go to autopsies for. And then when I was a detective going to autopsies, I was the lead detective on Trooper Scott Patrick's murder. And there was a set of. The prosecutor's office in Lake county had a set of photographs of Scott's autopsy, and I had a set. And I kept those. And I didn't. After that trial was over, I didn't put them back into evidence, and I kept them with me because I didn't want anybody to ever see them. And I kept them in my Scott box for years. And I finally, at one point in time, had gotten over it and gotten over that whole situation and the toll it took on me, and I finally was like, it's time to destroy that box. Like, I got rid of the models that I used with the witnesses, and I got rid of the documents that I'd created and all of the things, but I got rid of the autopsy photos finally and got rid of that because I just was protective of Scott's autopsy.

[Anya Cain]

Because you were his friend, right?

[Ryan Olahi]

Yeah, he was a friend of mine.

[Anya Cain]

I'm sorry.

[Ryan Olahi]

Yeah, it's. I mean, that's the. That's the responsibility that you have in law enforcement. Even if you're not willing and, and ready to sacrifice you, then you're probably in the wrong line of work.

[Anya Cain]

Right. You know, oftentimes in the shows, it's like some guy, like the lead detective is yelling at the csi, oh, do this, do that, do this. It really doesn't sound like that's really

[Ryan Olahi]

super accurate here, I would say when, when it's more, more of a, a crime scene technician or just an evidence collector. Yeah, that probably does happen to some extent. You know, maybe I've never worked a homicide in, in the heart of Manhattan in New York City. Maybe they are a little different. But a lot of times when I was going to scenes, I was going to areas if it was a bad enough scene, you know, a murder scene in a rural county who hadn't, hadn't had a murder in 15 years.

[Progressive Insurance Announcer]

Years.

[Ryan Olahi]

They probably don't have anybody who's ever been a detective that did a murder. And, you know, being a detective before I was a crime scene investigator, I had a pretty good idea of, of what needed to be collected, what was important and what was, you know, what was germane and probative to this investigation. And so a lot of times I, I mean, I was helping direct them in the right way. You know, if you're just a technician who just goes out and checks boxes and fills in boxes and just follows a manual like, well, the man says do it this way. Well, I'm telling you, you try to collect that fingerprint on that by the manual, you're not going to collect it. Well, how do you know that? Because I've done that before and I've seen that done. And it doesn't work, that it's not going to work. You're going to have to do this to it. You're going to have to do that to it. You're going to have to, you know, or you're just going to have to cut the whole, you know, wall out, you know, whatever. Like that experience, you know, we, we work and we work a lifetime and hopefully all of us is as smart as we'll ever be the day we die. And that's the most unfortunate thing because if we could reverse that and be as smart as we are when we were born, we wouldn't make nearly the issues or problems or concerns in the world.

[Anya Cain]

Baby. Csi.

[Ryan Olahi]

There's the next boss, baby.

[Anya Cain]

There you go.

[Ryan Olahi]

For Disney or Pixar, whoever does it,

[Anya Cain]

it's a more morbid take.

[Attorney Host]

Here's a basic question. A moment ago you said you offered a help Put the bodies in the bags and stuff. Because the sooner we get it done, the sooner we can get out of here. That raises the question, when you're at a crime scene, you're processing the crime scene, how do you know what you're done?

[Ryan Olahi]

It depends on the scene. I mean, it depends what's there. It's not like, okay, I've got enough to convict whoever did this. It doesn't get to that point. Like, as long as there's evidence to be collected, keep collecting evidence, and then you collect all the evidence. But there also is the idea that you, you know, are you going to collect stuff? I mean, I'll just say it like, am I going to collect sticks that aren't going to have fingerprints on them and then try to process them for fingerprints? No, like, I'm not going to get a fingerprint off of it. It's not going to happen. I'm probably not going to. There's. There's almost no way to get DNA off of it. Unless, like, there's a definite blood stain from someone. And, you know, you just. It doesn't work that way. So we are human. We are a, for the most part, a government entity and agency. We have a limited. There is a. There is a value on life. We all have a value. You know, I just watched the movie about the guy who had to process the value on life for the 911 attacks and that whole commission. I was, you know, that's kind of strange. Like, that's really what. But, you know, well, I was this. So I'm worth more than this. I don't. All life has value and. But all life has a value. You know, it has value and it has a value. And those are two very distinct and different ways of saying almost the same thing. But adding that a. Changes it. So can I collect everything in a room just in case there was something there we didn't know was there, we couldn't see, or it's unseen, or we don't have the technology today to get it, but maybe tomorrow we will. We don't have the resources to collect that. We don't have the resources to store that. You know, you try to get what you can with what you know at the time. And, you know, you work your way through the scene. Like if someone broke into a house and they broke in the back door and they kicked it in and there's a shoe print on the door. I'm going to collect that shoe print. So it looks. I mean, that's pretty obvious. I mean, pretty much Everybody's going to be like, shoe print on the door, about, you know, about waist high. Looks like somebody booted the door. Okay. Could have been that the guy put his boot up there. You know, the homeowner put his boot up there two days ago because he, you know, he just wanted to tie his shoe. But the door looks like it's been busted in, and the. There's. The frame is busted. So that's a pretty good guess. Without knowing that, you know, I'm going to collect that. They go into, you know, the first room they come to, and there's a safe, and the safe is pried open. Okay, I'm going to get the pry marks from that and see if I can find that tool. The rest of the house is perfectly clean. I'm going to photograph the rest of the house. I'm going to look through the rest of the house. Are there any footprints on any linoleum floors? Did anybody use the bathroom? Is there anything in the sink? Is there anything in the trash? Is there anything on the roof? Is there anything else in the basement or the crawl space? I'm going to look all those places. But if they went in, they booted the door, they went in the first room they came through, they got in the safe, and then they probably went back out the same way they came in. At that point, like, what else am I going to look for? Like, everything's there. Like, I don't have. There's not like an air sample I can take that says these six people were here. It's not my job to get the phone data for the area. I mean, that's somebody else that's going to do that. That's got a different technical aspect to the crime. We might do that, though. That would tell us maybe, hey, numbers were in the area. And then if somebody does that and then they go and interview a guy who was in the area, doesn't have any reason to be there, but he used to work for this guy, and he knows where his safe is because he's been in that house. And then we go and interview him. And by golly, he's got the same kind of boot print on. Now. You've got, you know, pieces of a puzzle and. And then you're probably going to get a conviction out of that or a confession or a plea. And I feel like at that point, I know I had the right of amount and I've done what I needed to do. It could be a mass murder in that house, though. And there could be six rooms where there's blood in four bodies because people moved around. That's going to take a long time, and that's going to be more than one person processing a scene like that. So, you know, but I'm still going to do the same kinds of things. I'm going to look high and low. I'm going to look left and right. I'm going to look up and down. I'm going to look at windows, I'm going to look at handles. I'm going to look at bathrooms and sinks and trash and outside and look in the area. Did somebody, you know, how did. How did they get here? How did they leave? Did they come in a vehicle? Did they come on foot? Did they ride a bike? Is there a trail from a bicycle through the grass that brought somebody here? Like, all those things, like, you just look at things holistically. You try not to narrowly focus and you try not to preconceive your notions. Somebody could say there's two dead bodies in there. And I'm sure it was the ex boyfriend, you know, because he was over here a couple days ago and was yelling at her. I bet. Was he? It's him. Well, okay, let me see if I can find his stuff here. Well, I might find his DNA in that house, but he's the ex boyfriend.

[Anya Cain]

Yeah.

[Ryan Olahi]

So what does that tell me? Okay, he's been in the house and they go and interview him. Yeah, I've been in the house. I was over there two days ago. I was mad because she came to my house and. And. And, you know, did something, you know, to my tires and she flattened my tires. I just came over and gave her a piece of my mind and I left. And I'm sure it's probably on her video camera that I came out. I never went in the house, but I haven't been in the house in three weeks. Weeks. Okay, but your DNA is in the house. Yeah, because I used to live there. I used to hang out there. I used to spend the night there. Somebody else. It doesn't mean he didn't do it, but it means he's got a reason to have his DNA there. You still got to look at things. Like, I don't go in and go, all right, let me try to put this person here. Let me try to put Richard Allen here. It's not what I do. It's not how I work. You can badmouth the law enforcement, you can badmouth me. You can say that I'm a conspirator or a co conspirator or Whatever. But I don't know Richard Allen from Boo. I don't know. I didn't know the guy that killed Scott Patrick when I investigated that murder. Things just happen and we end up being in the same place, looking at the same thing in the same time, because that's what brought us together. Not because I was looking for this person or that person. I'm an objective, partial observer. You can believe me or not.

[Anya Cain]

We believe you.

[Ryan Olahi]

That's good.

[Anya Cain]

I think most people who are sane dudes, it's those.

[Ryan Olahi]

You said that.

[Anya Cain]

Well, I've gotten a lot more blunt on this show. Yeah, but I mean, that's really well said. I like what you're talking about. You're talking about, like. I feel like there's two threads that we've kind of had in this conversation. One is commitment to thoroughness is beneficial in CSI and in investigations in general. Commitment to thoroughness and encouraging there to be really strong forensic autopsies and things like that and really going through everything. But also we need to pair that quest for thoroughness with a realism about the results that can be achieved. And perhaps that's not going to be the same in a situation where there's a rape murder, where there's semen, you know, and that can be collected and, you know, linked to the crime scene and linked to this person's death versus a situation where it may not be as forensically rich in the sense that stuff that you can collect and use

[Ryan Olahi]

and identify, and you wear, you know, a ball cap or something over your hair, you're going to probably put out less hairs. You wear long sleeves, there's probably less opportunity for someone to grab you, scratch you in an altercation. You wear gloves, you're probably not going to leave a lot of fingerprints. If your body is mostly covered, you're probably not going to leave a lot of DNA behind. Now, I'm not telling secrets to people like, oh, now I can go out and commit a crime.

[Anya Cain]

Don't do that, guys.

[Ryan Olahi]

Yeah, I. I mean, it's common sense. I mean, it's just the way things work. We're all different human beings and we're all different in who we are. I know from training that when I touch a piece of paper, I leave a lot of fingerprints behind because I'm a secretor. Like, I leave a lot of oil behind when I touch stuff. It's not like it's going to be like, it's not like I left a piece of fried chicken on here. And then you're going to be able to see through the paper. But. But from a processing standpoint, from a ninhydrin being placed on the paper or something else, or fingerprint dust, you're going to get a good fingerprint from me. When I touch paper, when I touch stuff, I leave good prints. Other people, dry hands. A lot of times people who are brick masons or work with their hands on very rough objects or people who, oddly enough enough, are like bank tellers for years, because of the roughness of money, will not have very good fingerprints. I mean, there are a lot of people who walk around, they have almost. If you go and look at a guy who's done brick masonry for 30 years and go and look at his fingerprints, and I don't mean like, he was the boss, like a guy who's been slinging bricks and mud. Go and look at his fingerprints. He's going to have a lot of them. They're going to be much smoother than the average person. Same thing. Thing. Like where I work now, we do fingerprinting on employees, and a lot of the employees deal with cash, and we'll fingerprint them for a background. And a lot of them have worked in banks, and now they're working in a cashier type realm, and they're very difficult to process because their fingerprints have worn down from. From touching money all day for 20, 30 years.

[Anya Cain]

That's wild. Hopefully that's not giving any bank tellers any ideas who are listening to this.

[Ryan Olahi]

But they may still leave DNA behind, though.

[Anya Cain]

Right? Well, there you go. Um, I did want to ask you, and then I want to move on to some myths, but what's usually the last thing you do when you're at a scene before leaving? And then are you the one to bring evidence to the lab? If that's the situation, that evidence is there to bring to the lab.

[Ryan Olahi]

I mean, the last thing is, like, making sure you picked up all your crap. Like, you don't want. My boss. Scott. Scott Gilbert would have gotten really mad if I was leaving my camera behind. It seems like, hey, Scott, I need another. I need another $3,000 camera. Pick up your stuff. I mean, really, it's. It's. It's a final walk through the scene. Like, did I miss anything? Yeah, I miss anything obvious. Like, it's like, all right, you know, it's like replaying it in your head. Like, all right, I did this, I did this, I did this. I collected this. How can I think about this differently? What can I do? What have I missed? What have I not thought of? What Else could there be, like, you try to outthink yourself, like, that's what your job is. If, If I was working a scene with someone else, a lot of times I'd ask them, like, hey, I did this, this, and this, and what about this? Now, I wouldn't do that. Okay, well, what do you think I'm. Else we could have done? Or well, did we do this? No, let's do that. Like, like you might go back out of the truck and get something else out and like, hey, let's try that. You know, and when it's a big scene like that, or, you know, a serious scene, like a homicide, you know, I said it the last time and I'll say it again. I say it all the time. None of us is smart as all of us. So when we put our collective brains together in that collective experience, we can get a completely different reality. You know, we try not to deal with a confirmation bias. Like, I think this is it. I'm going to work towards. Like, you want to keep your options open and your eyes open and your thought process open so that you don't miss something. You don't want to be you. If, if you're okay with being wrong, you're in the wrong line of work. I don't ever want to be wrong.

[Attorney Host]

Wrong.

[Ryan Olahi]

Like, I don't. Like, it's. It eats at me if I'm ever wrong about stuff, like at a scene, like if I did something wrong or, man, I should have done this or should have done that or I forgot that, like that that eats at me like, or I didn't think of that. Like I wasn't smart enough to think of that. That gets at me probably more than anything. So, yeah, the, the last things are just going back through it, going back over it, making sure you got everything, make sure you didn't miss anything, particularly the obvious stuff. The other part, what was the second part you asked?

[Anya Cain]

Do you bring the evidence to the lab at the the of end of the day?

[Ryan Olahi]

Yeah. So I mean, you generally, you'll, you know, put it in something, some sort of a container there that protects it, preserves it at the scene. And then, you know, if I'm going to do more with it, like, I want to get it back and like photograph it again, like at the scene, off of the scene at the lab. I may, may take it out of that and then repackage it. But then, you know, it goes back to the lab and it gets properly packaged and sealed so that it can be. Meet the standards to be put into the lab's care. The lab doesn't want it to come in, in like, you know, in an unkempt manner so that they can't, you know, do anything to it. They want to know that it comes in secure so that when they get it it's been, you know, it was secure when it left my hands, it's secure when it went into their hands and it's going to be secure when they put it back into evidence or take it out from analysis.

[Anya Cain]

So it's like chain of custody.

[Ryan Olahi]

Chain of custody.

[Anya Cain]

So you have to hand it over to them. So there's not like some. Yeah, that makes sense.

[Ryan Olahi]

Don't you know, I mean I don't, I cannot remember any point in time as a crime scene investigator when I went to a scene, collected evidence, there was never a time that I didn't go and turn it in at that time. Like it didn't go home with me and sit in my car for a couple of days.

[Anya Cain]

And then. Yeah, I think we wanted to talk about some of the weird myths about

[Ryan Olahi]

we can rapid fire em and let's do it. So some of the things that, and I talked with Jason and Scott about this a little bit and these were some of the things we'd come up with. And like every crime scene is fully processed for evidence. You know, in reality, not every crime scene receives a complete and thorough examination. And that's based on time, like we said, resources, logistical limitations. Maybe it's weather related, maybe, you know, the scene has been washed away before we get there or as we're getting there it is. Like I've said, there's, there's a finite amount of things that we can do and then, you know, could I spend eight hours at this burglary? Yeah. Is that a good use of my time? You know, do I think I'm going to find something else other than like the scenario I described, you know, the kicking in the back door, going in the first room and breaking in the safe. Do I need to like take DNA samples from the beds and see who had slept there? Like, does that matter? Like, you know, you can what if stuff to death and like you have to know kind of when you have it and when you don't that forensic investigations or forensic crimes get solved rather quickly and that's, that's a complete nutter fallacy. Again, like we said, the 45 minute crime drama is a 45 minute crime drama written probably backwards to forward, forwards from finish to beginning and we work the opposite. There's no technology yet that is instantaneous for things like, oh, here's so and so. That was his fingerprint, here's his full background. His third grade teacher, who his Cub Scout leader was, oh, he got kicked out of Cub Scouts. Like it just doesn't, you know, that's distinct research that has to be done, done later, that forensic scientists are always law enforcement officers. In fact, if it's a scientist in a lab, they're most likely a civilian and they have some sort of a biology degree, a chemistry degree, a forensics background in, in, you know, a science. Whereas still to this day, I'd say the majority of crime scene investigators are law enforcement officers. That's rapidly changing to civilization billion people a lot because of the television shows. I mean we talk to college students a lot of times like, yeah, I just, I don't want to be a police officer. I just want to be do csi. That looks cool. That looks fun like that. Okay, well you have to pay your dues. You're going to have to do this. And by the way, what they're probably going to pay you as a civilian is not going to be what they'll pay an officer. You're not going through that level of training for firearms and law and, and all of those things. They're probably going to pay you less. And then you're probably going to get in and find out like what your Pollyanna view of crime scene investigation from watching TV and what the reality is are two different things. And I think a lot of them find that, yeah, that's not what it was on tv. I don't want to do that. So I think a lot of them change careers rather rapidly or even change agencies chasing the dollar. This agency's, you know, I'm going to switch to this agency and be their CSI for $2 an hour more. So, so yeah, they're not always, always law enforcement. I would say most, for the most part crime scene investigators are generally still, at least in Indiana, law enforcement officers for the most part or at least have some level of legal authority as a sworn officer. Another myth that fingerprints provide immediate and perfect matches. Fingerprints generally take as long or longer maybe than DNA even sometimes like it. You know, you might have to send them in depending on what your print is. If it's a partial print, it may need a couple of days of analysis. And then again we're talking about, hey, I need this looked at right now. Then that, that fingerprint analyst is going to have to stop everything else they're working on because it's not like, they sit around and go, all right, I'm going to play Candy Crush for a couple hours today. Oh, look, there's somebody to bring me a fingerprint. Oh, I've got a fingerprint. Now I've got something to do. Like, they are racked and stacked with cases that are still waiting to be worked and maybe even old cases that are cold cases that they could go and work on.

[Anya Cain]

Can I ask you a dumb question for your routed buyer?

[Ryan Olahi]

Yeah.

[Anya Cain]

Do you guys ever have, like, in. I feel like in every CSI, like, show, there's always a lot of like, luminol and like, turning off and doing cool lights to the wall to see the blood and stuff like that. Is that common or is that something that you rarely see?

[Ryan Olahi]

I guess I don't know what common would be. To me, like, if it happens two or three times a year, that's pretty common. Yeah, I mean, I've used luminol. There are. There are a couple of things like that. Luminol. There was one called Bloodhound and then another one that doesn't glow like that. Like glucocrystal violet Phenolphthalein. It tells you whether a substance is blood or not. Like, it turns a certain color. If there's. There's hemoglobin basically in the substance, you

[Anya Cain]

are doing cool light stuff and.

[Ryan Olahi]

Yeah, but. But it doesn't work like it does. Like, you gotta be ready with your camera to capture that glowing because it doesn't like, like it, it doesn't glow. Like you have an electric bill to pay and you paid it up. Like, it, it doesn't glow for a long time. It kind of fluoresces and goes away. And the less of the, the object that you're. Like the blood or whatever it is, like you're trying to get to fluoresce. The less of that there is, the less strong that reaction is. So it doesn't like, stay for. It's not like, oh, yeah, hey, it's glowing. Somebody go get the candy camera.

[Anya Cain]

No, you gotta be.

[Ryan Olahi]

You gotta be ready. Like, it. It doesn't stick around for a long time.

[Anya Cain]

And then my other stupid question is, in all of these shows, you always see, whether it's at a crime scene or at the autopsy, someone goes off to throw up because they're so affected by it. Is that common?

[Ryan Olahi]

No. And that was one of the things with the state police, whenever we got new officers out of the academy, one of the things they had to do was, was go to an autopsy. I mean, I did it When I was a rookie, we did it with rookies. I did it several times with rookies. Some of them were like, I'm gonna stand by the door. But I never had anybody pass out. And, you know, I didn't have the Quincy MD moment from the opening credits. Like, if you're old enough. If you're old enough to know what Quincy MD is, if you don't, you know, go and Google it and find. Watch it on YouTube.

[Anya Cain]

Kevin made me watch it, and I loved it.

[Ryan Olahi]

Yeah. The opening scene, you know, welcome to the. Boom. And he throws the. Throws the. Throws the curtain, the. The sheet back on the body. And like, eight of the LAPD officers, rookies, cadets, you know, pass out. Like. Like, is that doesn't really. That rarely. I never had an officer. Some guys are like, okay, I can see it from over here. I'm fine. Versus a couple of guys are like, yeah, let me see. I would say that guys who were. Again, we're in the Midwest. Guys who were like, hunters and had been around, like, cleaning animals or farms and been farmers or grown up on farms where they'd, you know, maybe butchered or they had, you know, dressed. Field dressed a deer or something or squirrels or rabbits or pheasants or whatever they hunted. Like they were a little more like. Yeah, you know, a liver kind of looks like a liver. You know, a kidney. It's just a bigger version of a kidney on a human. You know, that was. You know, you've been around farms and farm animals, you've probably seen a lot of that stuff. Another one. I'm. A single piece of evidence is enough to solve a case. Yeah, it could be. And a lot of times I would say tv, Ah, it's the aha moment. See, there's that one piece of evidence. It's the Perry Mason, you know. Aha. See, you know, so usually a case is based upon lots of evidence, lots of pieces of evidence, or lots of things that aren't found that should have been found or should be there, things that are missing. So that crime scene investigation is glamorous and exciting. I don't have. Never had. Never could have afforded an Armani suit. Never went to a crime scene in a sports car. And like I said at the beginning, the only glamorous crime scene investigator I know is Jason Page, bar none.

[Anya Cain]

He's the one.

[Ryan Olahi]

He's the one. He is the one one. He's the chosen one.

[Anya Cain]

Yeah.

[Ryan Olahi]

I love you, Jason. That forensic science is always 100% accurate. That I can't remember.

[Attorney Host]

We.

[Ryan Olahi]

We talked about this and we talked about this in like preparing for different cases, particularly in deli. But there are levels to certainty in sciences and like mathematics, it's 100% certainty because you can prove it. Like it's one plus one is two and you can prove that. Whereas when you start to look at matches in ballistics matches and fingerprints, it's an opinion, but it's based upon fact, it's based upon training, it's based upon learning, and it's based upon saying these things are the same and here's why. Now someone else can look, look at it and say something else, but you can also be paid to look at it and say something else too, because we want you to say something else. I can do that as you move down. Like, like what I recall was like psychology was like the most inaccurate science. It's like interpretation of the human brain, like moods and emotions, like who can really, you know, tell what somebody's thinking. You know, it just doesn't, doesn't work, work that way that forensic scientists work in sterile environments. Well, the forensic scientists work in a pretty sterile environment in the lab. But crime scene investigators, as we discussed, do not work in areas that I would call sterile or clean. Quite often. Yeah, I may take evidence back to a place where I keep it very clean and pull out fresh like butcher paper type stuff to work on to keep from contaminating or spreading anything. But in the same scene, like we don't have a choice on where the scenes are. Like I, I core doesn't bother me. Bad smells don't bother me, Bad things don't bother me like that. But if you'd let me pick where I could work my crime scenes, I wouldn't pick those places. I'd rather be in, you know, a nice place and maybe a place that has a coffee bar that I can stop at, you know, in between trips to the truck to get something, you know, that'd be nice, but I don't. You don't get to pick where the, where things happen. And quite frankly, frankly, I would say that when bad stuff happens, like death, it's usually, it's literally the worst point in a person's life and they probably weren't prepared for it. They probably didn't clean up for it, they probably didn't clean up their house for it. You know, those are just, it's just, it's the finite end. Another one is that forensic scientists and crime scene investigators always solve crimes. There's a reason we have cold kid investigators. Not every crime is Solved. It just doesn't happen that way. It doesn't work that way. You can have lots of evidence and no, you know, you don't have a suspect and, or a rhyme or reason to this crime. Thirty years ago, this year, this, this last spring when Oklahoma City and the bombing happened, you know, and, and would they have solved that as quickly had it not been for the Oklahoma trooper that just happened to stop Tim McVeigh and picked him up on an unrelated charge for carrying a handgun, you know, and not having lice plates, like that was a, you know, a miracle of good police work? Like, he just did his job. So would that have been solved as quickly? Would it have ever been solved? Maybe, maybe not. Would it, you know, he have ever been brought to justice? But we lucked out. So one character often performs every role, including detective lab tech, for instance. Like, there are. There. I'm. I, I can do. Do what. I can't do what Stacy Bozanoski does for DNA. I can't do that. I can't do what Melissa Oberg did for firearms. Like, I don't have that training and skill, but I can take them something well packaged and well preserved and well collected and let them do their, their thing to it. You know, in reality, it's very highly. It's very specialized. All of those things are important. Oh, you kind of touched on the gore and the cleanliness. But in television, things are often kind of tidy and neat and latest fashions and the latest furniture. And I, I rarely, I, I don't. You know, like I said, bad things happen when you least expect it. And I went into a lot of nasty, dirty houses that, that. It's unfortunate and it's bad. I went into houses where people were less fortunate and didn't have family to take care of them sometimes. And they lived in filth and squalor, not by choice, but by happenstance and circumstance. And that's. That's sad. I mean, we as a society have to do better, to do things that are, you know, to look out for our neighbors better and take care of them. We need to do better as a society on mental health, and we need to be able and open to talk about those things in mental health. And I don't know what the answers always are or aren't, but I know that, you know, we can do better and looking out for each other, helping people. But going into scenes like, it was usually like, the nastiness, I just won't even bring up because some places are just inhumane, like filthy, like, you Wouldn't you know the old saying, like you wouldn't let a dog live in that. And people live that way sometimes and it's unfortunate and you know, hopefully somebody can help them and, or they can find help. Some of it's mental health, some of it's happenstance or circumstance. So unfortunately kind of on your line, like legal procedure. Investigators can interrogate suspects without much legal restraint. I know you see that happen a lot. Like, like I don't really think I've ever done good cop, bad cop. Like, I don't know that I've ever really seen that really work. Or you know, like, I think guys in the back room like joke about that. I mean sometimes that might actually happen. Kind of just, it comes out that way because you'll interview two guys will interview somebody and one of them just gets a rapport with them and the other guy just like, I ain't talking to you. Like you didn't play bad cop. He just doesn't like you. Like, maybe that guy just doesn't like the color of your shirt hurt and he's just not going to talk to you and he's not going to like you. But I'm going to talk to you, I'll talk to you, you know, and things like that. And like we said, the resolution, most crimes are solved within a one hour episode. And like we said 100 times now, it just doesn't happen that way and sometimes it never happens, unfortunately. And those are the ones that you worry about and consider. So yeah, yeah, those are some of the things that we talked about and kind of came up with.

[Anya Cain]

Um, do you ever watch those CSI

[Ryan Olahi]

shows or do you just can't. I don't. And it's like, like I said the first time, like my wife can't really watch medical shows because of all the, the things. And you know, she is a, as a, as a nurse practitioner and as a, a nurse educator, like just the way things happen and the way they do things. Now there are times when she's like, oh, that was really good. Like, that's pretty smart. Like, that's, that's accurate. But then, you know, 30 seconds later the person's doing something completely wrong. So.

[Anya Cain]

Gosh. So, yeah, that, I think that's helpful and I just, I would, you know, what would you say as far as members of the public who are interested in true crime about how they can think about CSI going forward? I think it's important that people do want to have high standards in CSI and high standards of evidence about, you know, Possibly convicting someone of a crime, but at the same time, you know, having expectations around, oh, there's no DNA that means someone did something wrong, or, you know, like it's a cover up, that, that's taking it too far. So how would you counsel people where to kind of come down on that?

[Ryan Olahi]

I mean, unfortunately, law enforcement in America, because of bad actors, has lost the trust of the public in a lot of ways. And that's by our own hubris. Again, I go back to what I said about the 1829 Metropolitan Police Act. The police are the people and the people are the police. If crime happens and you know what happened, I believe it's your duty as a part of a good society to say what happened. If you're worried about protecting the person from conviction because of what will happen, you're to me, as much a part of the problem as anything. Like, be a good witness. Don't be a. I'm not saying be a Karen, but be a good witness. When something bad happens or if somebody tells you something, like, if somebody comes up and confidently says, I murdered somebody, oh, okay, call the police. There's a family out there that has a loved one that may not have a resolution. I mean, that's heroic to call and be a part of the solution. If, if you're not willing to be part of the solution, then you're part of the problem. Like, do the right things. I go all the time. I mean, it's one of the things that kind of triggers my PTSD stuff is I don't like the shows where it glamorizes or mitigates or humanizes bad people. I'm still the guy that likes the white hat and the black hat. I, I like. And I know we live in a gray world, but when we start dehumanize, like, well, they just had some hard times, so they were selling drugs to get on their feet. Like, that's just like, not okay. Like, for me, it's just not. Like, I understand we all have hard times, but there's other ways out there to get help or do something. But when we start to, like, minimize or humanize, like, the badness and like, the badness is okay, we all do it. I told you earlier, like, I don't say all in every. Like, we don't. It's not everybody, not everybody does bad stuff. And I don't think it's a good. Like, I, I like, I don't like the forensic science shows, but I don't like shows like Breaking Bad. Like, it just like, eh, you know, you're making Walter White look like kind of like the anti hero. Like, and that's just not who I am. I'm. People can like that and that doesn't mean they're bad people or. I'm not saying that. I just, it just to me is not who, what I envision. Like, I want a society where the good guy wins, where people who hurt other people are brought to justice, where people who cheat other people, particularly those who are disadvantaged or less capable are, are taken advantage of. I want those people brought to justice. Because when you lie and cheat and steal, like, it's just not the society I want to be a part of. So those are, I mean those are the things that come to my mind. Mind.

[Anya Cain]

Like, but unfortunately one thing that the loss in trust in law enforcement does is. Is make it more likely for people to get away with things.

[Ryan Olahi]

Absolutely.

[Anya Cain]

You know, it's like, then it's like, well, you know, everyone's in a conspiracy or everyone's a liar. Right. So, yeah, you know, you'd have to see that trust be won back, I think.

[Ryan Olahi]

And, and I don't, I don't know what the answer is. I don't. There's no panacea, there's no magic belt. You, you, you can't put the egg back in the shell. But we got to do something to change that. And I want to see integrity brought back to it at a level that comes up to O.W. wilson's promise and his pledge for law enforcement that he wrote back in the 30s. We have a standard and law enforcement should hold themselves to a higher standard, but also at the same time, the public should hold itself to a high standard to assist and help. You know. Yeah, if, you know, somebody did something bad in your community and you don't do something about it, you have no right to gripe about how bad things are in your community.

[Anya Cain]

And this ties back to what the CSI effect. The one thing that's my pet peeve with true crime is when I see people talk about a situation and they act like it is completely novel and just totally unprecedented, and you look up and you find several different cases that maybe don't match it perfectly but are at least pretty similar. And it's like there's nothing new under the sun. So I guess being skeptical about stuff like that and being skeptical about like, oh, well, they would have found DNA. You know, usually that's not true. And we can have high expectations for CSI being done properly without necessarily having high expectations about, in every situation. There's gonna be a forensic clue that's super important that is able to be gathered and lead to a conclusion. Do you miss being in law enforcement?

[Ryan Olahi]

I mean, I'm still. I'm tech. I'm still in law enforcement. I'm still a sworn officer in my second career. I miss the people I worked with. I miss working with Jason and I miss working with Scott. I miss working around Dean. I miss. I miss being at the middle of some of the scenes and the things that go on. Like, that's fun. Like, it's exciting. Like, it's cool to be there. Like, things that I'll never be able to talk about or tell, like will go to the grave with me. Not because I, you know, I just don't air bad things about some people, like. Like burning Scott's autopsy, Scott Patrick's autopsy pictures, you know, but being in the middle of the. No and not. I don't mean that like I know something you don't know. I like. I. I like being part of the. The answer. And I had an opportunity in my. In that. That line of work, doing crime scenes to be part of the answer. So I like that. Like, that's. That's fun.

[Anya Cain]

Was there anything else? We didn't ask you about that you think it's important for people to understand?

[Ryan Olahi]

No, I just. I appreciate you having me on again. I. I hope people enjoy what, you know, what I have to say, and I hope that it's enlightening to some people. I hope it eases concerns of others. I enjoy the things that we get to do and that, you know, a career in law enforcement afforded me and it continues to afford me, and I'm blessed that to be a servant of the public.

[Attorney Host]

Thank you so much.

[Anya Cain]

Thank you so much.

[Ryan Olahi]

Thank you.

[Attorney Host]

Thanks so much to Brian for sharing his experience with us. We always really enjoy speaking with him. Thanks so much for listening to the Merchant Murder Sheet. If you have a tip concerning one of the cases we cover, please email [e-mail]. if you have actionable information about an unsolved crime, please report it to the appropriate authorities.

[Anya Cain]

If you're interested in joining our Patreon, that's available at www.patreon.com murder sheet. If you want to tip us a bit of money for records requests, you can do so at www.buymeacoffee.com murdersheet. We very much appreciate any support.

[Attorney Host]

Special thanks to Kevin Tyler Greenlee, who composed the music for the Murder Sheet and who you can find on the web. @kevintg.com if you're looking to talk with

[Anya Cain]

other listeners about a case, we are covered. You can join the Murder Sheet Discussion group on Facebook. We mostly focus our time on research and reporting, so we're not on social media much. We do try to check our email account, but we ask for patience as we often receive a lot of messages. Thanks again for listening.

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