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- [00:00]
A
Fall's pretty much here and I for one am celebrating the cooler temperatures because this means I can finally break out my Quince Mongolian cashmere sweaters. I love sweaters in general and these are two of my all time favorites.
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B
I'm desperate to have Anya buy another hat maybe.
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A
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C
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- [02:21]
B
Audible.Com wondery content warning this episode includes discussion of the murder of children.
- [02:29]
A
So today on the Murder Sheet, we're gonna take a little moment to, I guess reflect on all the things that have happened. It's September 10th today. And there's been just a lot going on in terms of the book and Crimecon and different events.
- [02:45]
B
We're getting a lot of questions. What was your experience like at Crimecon? And so why don't we just, just tell, tell it all, lay it all on the table.
- [02:55]
A
Okay, yes, why don't you do that, Kevin?
- [02:58]
B
So that's, that's what's going to happen.
- [02:59]
A
We're not just talking about Crimecon, though. We're going to talk about like different events and what we've got coming up and just sort of different things that we want you guys to know about. So checking in? Yes, to check in. And apparently we're going to be really goofy about it already.
- [03:15]
B
All right, so we do. It's a check in on the table.
- [03:19]
A
Put your check ins on the table. All right, should we just hit the pod then? Let's go. My name is Anya Cain. I'm a journalist.
- [03:26]
B
And I'm Kevin Grainlee. I'm an attorney.
- [03:28]
A
And this is the Murder Sheet.
- [03:30]
B
We're a true crime podcast focused on original reporting, interviews and deep dives into murder cases. We're the Murder Sheet.
- [03:38]
A
And this is announcements, biscuits and CrimeCon. SAM.
- [04:29]
B
So, so obviously the announcements, Biscuits and Crime Con, we were kind of reaching a bit to come up with an A. We were going for like an ABC thing. And one thing we were talking.
- [04:39]
A
Wow, you're just like revealing all of our secrets.
- [04:41]
B
Well, these are our friends, the listeners. We have no secrets from them. But one announcement was the single most asked question we've gotten, is what's next? What's the case you're going to do next with the same intensity that you handled Delphi that you would then presumably write a book about? What is it? What is it? Should I answer that?
- [05:08]
A
Yes.
- [05:08]
B
We don't know.
- [05:09]
A
We don't know.
- [05:10]
B
There's a number of cases out there that we are very interested in. You can, you can probably guess if you're a listener to this program, what some of them might be. But we haven't made any final decisions at this time.
- [05:23]
A
Our view on covering cases is that, you know, there are certain cases we're going to come in and we're going to interview an expert and they're going to be able to tell you because they're the expert. Right? And we're going to be benefiting the case by amplifying a responsible, good expert who can tell you more about it in other cases. We're going to be the experts. We're going to be the ones diving in and doing everything. And in some cases that would result in like a Delphi level coverage and in other cases that would result in, you know, something more like Idaho, where we're sort of jumping in and providing a legal analysis and doing some interviews. So it just kind of depends. But what we like to be led by is are we adding value to a case and are we adding value to all of you in terms of what you're getting out of it? We don't want to just be like following the national news media. We don't want to just be sort of rehashing work that others have done. So it's, we have to be careful about what we pick because we have to be realistic about what we're going to be able to do. So that's, we try to be careful about such decisions and not just rush into like, this is the next case we're doing. And, you know, and that means some trial and error and that means some looking at how things are going or what information we're able to get access to. So we appreciate your patience. But, you know, and, and honestly, I think, I think we're all. I really do want to, I, I would love to be able to absolutely write another book. I. This was very, a meaningful experience for both of us. But that's a similar thing where we would want to make sure we were doing that in a way that was going to result in a high quality book and not just, you know, some kind of thing where we throw together anything.
- [07:02]
B
Another question we got is, who wrote what sections of the book? And the answer to that is, whatever part of the book that was your personal favorite that you thought was really exceptionally well done, that was written by Anya.
- [07:20]
A
You're a little sweetie. But no, that's not true, guys. Kevin's a very.
- [07:24]
B
I'm trying.
- [07:25]
A
What are you trying? You're trying to be self deprecating. He's a very good writer and I think, you know, I hope, I hope it sounds like it was written in one voice. I hope some people have told us, yeah, that's a Kevin section. That's an Anya section. So, I mean, I think some people might kind of be able to guess based on our personalities, but hopefully most of the time it's seamless because, you know, you don't want to just have it be like, oh, here's Kevin, he's coming in.
- [07:51]
B
Well, a couple of times people have said, oh, this line here, that's definitely an Anya line. And I remember writing it and I'm sure you've had similar experiences.
- [07:59]
A
That's right. That's right. Yeah, I, I, or, or they, or, you know, I, I think there was one where someone was convinced it was the section that I wrote and then you, you wrote it. So we also edited each other's stuff and we tried to make it, you know, a blend of our styles. So. But yeah, I, I definitely, we definitely want to do another book. We definitely want to continue to cover cases in depth, but I just think there's a benefit in terms of, you know, quality control, in terms of not rushing into the next thing. So hopefully you can stick it out with us. And, you know, we're still going to be covering cases in depth. It's just going to be a matter of how in depth and you know, what, what that looks like. But you guys already know, you're used to the murder sheet being somewhat of a hodgepodge anyway, so, you know, that's kind of, I think people won't be surprised.
- [08:50]
B
So I, I want, I have something to say to conclude the announcements portion of the program, but I think you have some things you wanted to say. Before I do that, I think I.
- [08:58]
A
Do want to make some announcements. So at this time, this, we're, again, we're recording on September 10th. This should be coming out on Tuesday the 16th or Monday the 15th for the Patron Patreon patrons. So there should have already been the Greenwood Library event, the Columbus event, and the next year.
- [09:18]
B
So you're telling people about things they've missed.
- [09:20]
A
Here's what you missed.
- [09:21]
B
It's too late for you. File this under missed opportunities.
- [09:24]
A
Yes. I just want to make everyone feel terrible.
- [09:27]
B
Thanks, Anya. What a great way to begin the program.
- [09:30]
A
Bringing down the mood. And it's September. So Saturday, September 20th, we are going to be going to the Noblesville, Indiana Barnes and Noble to sign books. We'll be there in the afternoon. Swing by, say hi, come get your book signed. Even if you already got your book signed, come say hi. We like to say hi to people and chat with them. So come have a chat. And then September 26th, this is a ticketed event in Kendallville, Indiana. From 6:00pm to 8:00pm, we're gonna be signing books at the Community Learning center in Kendallville, Indiana.
- [10:04]
B
And earlier that day, we will be making an unannounced stop at Grop's Fish Shack. Well, I will be getting just an enormous amount of fish.
- [10:17]
A
Kevin will be gorging himself on fish, and then we'll be going to that.
- [10:20]
B
I don't get to Grop's Fish Shack nearly as often as I like, kind of far away. So I have to seize the opportunity and just eat like a madman.
- [10:29]
A
I support you. You have your little whimsies.
- [10:32]
B
Yes.
- [10:33]
A
Friday, October 3rd, we're going to Franklin, Indiana, at the Historical Society there. And we're doing an event there. It's gonna be, I think doors open at 5pm event starts at 6pm it's a ticketed event. Get your tickets. And then Saturday, October 11th, we're going to the Louisville Book Festival in Louisville, Kentucky. So we're going outside of Indiana. And Saturday, October, going to the Bluegrass State. Right, Exactly. Um, I really like Louisville, so I'm excited. Saturday, October 18th, we're going to the Carmel, Indiana Barnes and Noble. And then the last one we have scheduled right now is Saturday, Nov. 1, 2025, in Lafayette, Indiana. We're going to the Barnes and Noble. So let me just throw something out there for everybody. People have said, oh, you know, come to. Come to this or that. If, you know a. You know, a shop owner, a library. If you're a librarian or a bookstore owner or someone who works at a bookstore or someone who works at some kind of event space where you want us to come, email us@murdersheetmail.com where we're open to traveling. I don't know if, like, what you can't. It can't hurt to ask. Okay. And we love to meet people, so I think it'd be really fun. So just feel free to get in contact with us if you have an idea or if you're like, hey, I'm in, you know, Australia, but I want you guys to come zoom for my book club. We can do zoom. We can be flexible. So if you have a book club, a bookstore, a library, a what? You know, if you have something in mind, now's a really good time. Just email us@murdersheetmail.com and we are people pleasers. We will try to make it work out as best we can. So.
- [12:11]
B
And Anya is not lying. Anya never lies. I know, but she wasn't lying when she said she loves Louisville. Because I remember after the first time we visited Louisville together, which was shortly after we moved back to Indiana, Anya, of course, being a native New Yorker, Anya said something that surprised me, and I'm curious if you still stand by it. You said, kevin, Louisville reminds me a lot of Brooklyn.
- [12:38]
A
Some aspects of it did. I think a lot is probably not the word I'd use there. But there was just certain kind of downtown vibes to it. Were we There was that when we went to see John Mulaney.
- [12:51]
B
We've been to Livell a few times.
- [12:53]
A
Yeah, I don't remember which one that was, but, no, I liked Louisville.
- [12:56]
B
I thought it was in the Bluegrass State.
- [12:57]
A
It is in the Bluegrass State, I suppose, but it was nice. And so. Yeah. So, like, I guess just like, if you have anything in mind. And I also want to throw this out. Announcing to creators, we are looking to speak to different podcasts, journalists, whatever media outlets about the book. If you have any interest in that, please email us@murdersheetmail.com we can set something up. Happy to answer questions about the Delphi case, especially, you know, as. As things move toward an appeal. And this is something for our listeners. If you have a podcaster, a YouTuber, a journalist you really like, one thing that's super helpful to us, if you could just shoot them an email with our email in it and some information about the book and just encourage them to reach out to us. That's something that helps immensely.
- [13:47]
B
So does that conclude the announcement portion of the program?
- [13:52]
A
I think it does.
- [13:53]
B
So now we can start to get to more content. Is that fair to say?
- [13:59]
A
Have you been dying for the content, Kevin?
- [14:02]
B
I'm always dying for content.
- [14:03]
A
Okay, well, yeah, let's do it.
- [14:05]
B
Well, let me conclude this section of the program by noting earlier I mentioned that the question we were asked most often was about what our next project was. The comment that I think we got most often is people would come up to us and say, well, you know, at one point or another in my life, because of my interest in the Delphi case, I visited the community of Delphi. And while I was there, I made a point to get biscuits. And my God, you were not exaggerating. They were wonderful.
- [14:40]
A
Exactly. We wouldn't lead you guys astray. You know, we're gonna keep it real on this show. And those are the best, biggest biscuits I've ever had in my life.
- [14:48]
B
Isn't that a comment we heard over and over again?
- [14:50]
A
Yeah. Or people said, I went there, but I didn't know about it then. And I'm crushed. Crestfallen.
- [14:56]
B
People say, I. I thought you were exaggerating about the biscuits. If anything, you were underselling them. They were magnificent.
- [15:04]
A
They really are. Yeah. And you're welcome, everybody. Plucked from the heavens like manna. Yeah, it's true. They're so good. I love Delphi. I'm just saying, we've spent a lot of time there. People are so nice. The biscuit place is like the jewel of the crown. But it's also. There's so many nice businesses there. The Rock shop, they're always so nice in there. We got a sign for our laundry room there that I always. When I see and I'm like that. We got that in Delphi. And there's just a lot of cool places. The flower shop, that's very nice. People that nice there.
- [15:39]
B
But wait a minute. I was bringing up the biscuits there so we could have a seamless transition.
- [15:46]
A
If you're now wrecking or in asunder. Sorry.
- [15:50]
B
So everybody just pretend that I'm still saying yes. Everybody was asking us about those biscuits and they were great. Gosh, Anya, now we're going to talk about our.
- [15:59]
A
We had a biscuit shop signing.
- [16:01]
B
Yes.
- [16:02]
A
Right. Well, it was our second signing. I do wanna say yes. First signing was in Westfield with Turn the Page books. That was amazing. Thanks to everyone who came to that. That was our sort of launch event. Yes, people were super nice. And then the second one was the biscuit shop in Delphi. Some people traveled, some people were locals who were coming to that and it was a wonderful experience.
- [16:24]
B
Is it fair to say, Ms. Kane, that we were especially nervous about this event because we knew that it was likely to be attended by people who actually appeared in the book.
- [16:35]
A
Can you imagine? They come up, what the hell is this? Throw the book at us. Yes. That was very nerve wracking because it was. You know, in some ways we've used this metaphor before in the show, but the Delphi case, we've often felt like the dog who caught the proverbial car, where it's like a dog chases a car. What's the dog gonna do? I mean, what. Like, what's the. I mean, what are they. What are they hoping to do? And we felt like that in the Delphi case because we've often been covering it and reporting on what people are doing and then you finally meet them and you're like, oh, my God. Listen, we're all trying to save money without compromising on quality these days. Frankly, Kevin and I need to ensure that Lanny gets her fancy dog food brand, which is for lap dogs, even though she's a rather formidable looking lady.
- [17:23]
B
That's why Anya and I made the switch to Mint Mobile. This is a company that offers us reliability for an extremely reasonable price. Between taking sudden calls from sources, trangling with records departments for documents, we need a mobile service that we can rely on. You never want to be on the phone with someone talking about a horrible murder and have the line go dead. It's concerning for everyone. It's like something out of a bad movie.
- [17:51]
A
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- [18:12]
B
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- [18:33]
A
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- [18:58]
B
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- [19:18]
A
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- [19:40]
B
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- [19:50]
A
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- [20:04]
B
And also imagine what it must be like to like pick up a book and it's about you and your character in the book. That must be a very bizarre experience to have.
- [20:16]
A
I concur, I concur. So it's and it then it's weird to be the author of the book and then you meet and like you see the people that you interviewed for the book and then they're in the book and you're just like oh man, wonder what they think. Wonder what's going in their minds. So, yeah, it was. It was. That was. So we were. I was nervous for Westfield because it was the first one we were doing, and I was like, we're just gonna end up rambling, which is pretty much what we did. I don't. I don't think anyone was mad about it. I think they. They listened to the show. They've come to expect a certain level of rambling, but that was, you know, so we had that one under our belts, but then that one was gonna be the one that we were even more nervous about.
- [20:52]
B
And I. I looked like the sort of person who would ramble. I looked like they were, you know, vaguely disheveled. The sort of person who wants to press his manifesto upon you. Aw.
- [21:04]
A
I'd read your manifesto. It would be something very innocuous. I like Silver Age Superman. It wouldn't be anything. It would give off threatening vibes. But then it would be something totally innocuous. That's your personality. Yeah.
- [21:17]
B
Jumping ahead a bit, somebody who met us at crimecon posted that they were shocked by the gulf between how they imagined me to look and how I actually look. Because they imagine me is like, I guess, kind of like a crew cut guy from the 1950s, kind of a preppy type, five neat guys, but instead, I'm, like, more of a disheveled hippie type, I guess.
- [21:46]
A
Yeah. I think somebody said once that you look like you're really into the Grateful Dead. I don't really know what that means, but I'm assuming it kind of means a hippie type. Yeah. You know, you. You. You had. I mean, the thing is, you. Your beard now is a lot more manageable than it once was. I. I've seen pictures. I've seen driver's licenses.
- [22:03]
B
Yes.
- [22:03]
A
You've told me stories about being stopped by, you know, border patrol customs people who had some concerns about what you were doing crossing the border. But, you know, I. I think that's. That's not really your vibe in life. It's just, you know, that's just your look. You don't really like going to the barbershop. You don't really like any of that.
- [22:25]
B
Who has the time in this workaday world?
- [22:29]
A
Well, it's funny, though, is like, you kind of have the musical taste of, like, a 1950s guy or, like a 1960s guy, maybe, because you're really into the Rat Pack and Sinatra and all that. Sammy Davis Jr. That gang. So you're a man of mysteries. You're a man of many facets.
- [22:45]
B
Yeah. Someone online Described me as an enigma.
- [22:48]
A
You are not to me, but I can understand that to other people.
- [22:52]
B
Oh, so you think you figured me out?
- [22:54]
A
I think I've cracked the code.
- [22:55]
B
Well, you can see about that. I think I still have some surprises in store for you.
- [23:00]
A
You contain multitudes. That's all. Just, you know, But I. Yeah, that's. Was that someone who saw you at crime. Com? Was that just someone who saw a picture?
- [23:08]
B
I think it was someone who saw me at Crime Con.
- [23:09]
A
Okay. They wouldn't. They glimpsed you. Yeah, Well, I think you're also. I think people also tend to be, you know, if they say you're a bit quieter than I am, I just yap at people, just yapping, blah, blah, blah. And then you're just sitting there kind of nodding yes. That's kind of the vibe. So.
- [23:26]
B
Yes, ma'. Am.
- [23:27]
A
That's not. That's not anybody's. That's just, you know, that's just what happens.
- [23:31]
B
So, yeah, who's to say how that happens?
- [23:35]
A
You're very quiet and I. I can't abide a silence. So I'm going to fill in the. In the gaps.
- [23:41]
B
But the biscuit shop, great experience. Thank you to everybody who. Who made the journey.
- [23:47]
A
Yeah, thanks to Turn the Page for Westfield. Thanks to the Delphi Biscuit Company. They're wonderful. If you go through Delphi, if you're on the way, you know, somewhere, or you are specifically stopping in Delphi, go check out their biscuits. You won't regret it. I also really like their plain Jane waffle, but the biscuits are the star of the show and, you know, they should be in the spotlight and you should try them because you're not gonna regret it. They're so good. And, yeah, that was the only downside to that. Cause we were upstairs and we were signing books and then I kept on, like, looking down, I wanna get a biscuit. But a lot of people came, so we got biscuits in the end. And that was great. It was nice. It was a good delay.
- [24:27]
B
You got your biscuits, I got my biscuits. No complaints.
- [24:30]
A
They were nice. They were super nice. And everyone there is so nice who works there. So thanks to. Thanks, everyone. And thanks to, you know, Jason and Mary and everybody. Cause it was just a. It was a great opportunity.
- [24:40]
B
We really appreciate it.
- [24:41]
A
Yeah. Yeah. And again, also, thank you to Turn the Page. Thank you to all the folks who came to our launch event in Westfield. That was awesome, too. And I'll go back to our biscuit experience. Cause it kind of turned into something a bit emotional for Me. But one thing that was really nice was getting to see some of the people, because people who were in the book did turn out and came up and said hi, and it was kind of an honor.
- [25:04]
B
So, um, yeah, it meant a lot.
- [25:07]
A
It meant a great deal. And I'll. I'll end with the sappy stuff, but we can. We can move on now. So our third event, I suppose, was Crimecon.
- [25:16]
B
Crimecon. Which we were also nervous about. I guess we're nervous about everything.
- [25:20]
A
We're just kind of anxious people, kind of a nightmare to be around and know. And yeah, as I'm sure all of you have gotten the flavor from the show.
- [25:28]
B
I remember you were anxious also about the packin. And I remember as we are driving to the airport to catch our flight, you, who you know, you're married to me, you love me, you respect me. You ask me, Kevin, did you pack enough pants? And again, you respect me, you love me. I tell you the number of pants I have packed, which I think is a more than sufficient number, and you are convinced it's not. You say, kevin, you're such a slob. You're such a sloppy man. You're going to be spilling stuff all over your pants. You need a huge supply of pants. And again, you love me and you respect me. You want to, like, turn the car around. You want to secure as many pairs of pants as possible. So I have the option, I guess, to change them hourly, which I think is what you think I do here. And I say, no, no, no, I have. We'll be okay. We'll be okay. And you were. You were concerned. But I remember thinking, well, she is this concerned about my pants situation, that one thing I don't have to worry about is obviously Anya has packed her own clothes correctly and has a ready supply of extra garments in case tragedy strikes or in case an errant piece of food strikes. So what happens Friday morning on the first day of Crimecon? Anya opens up the luggage and she doesn't have anything to wear.
- [27:21]
A
First of all, how dare you. Putting me on blast in front of all the listeners.
- [27:26]
B
I think you had a couple of blouses, but that was it. And you need.
- [27:29]
A
I forgot my. I forgot my pants or my skirts in this case.
- [27:33]
B
Yeah, you can't. You can't just walk around with just a blouse. I don't know.
- [27:37]
A
I can't. That would be.
- [27:38]
B
I would be clear. That wasn't your plan. No, that wasn't your plan.
- [27:42]
A
I would have gotten kicked out of crime con pretty quickly.
- [27:45]
B
So, yeah, I so Concerned about my supply of pants.
- [27:49]
A
I was mostly, I was very upset opening the suitcase and realizing my blunder because not only was it a big, you know, pain in the butt to deal with, but also, I knew you were gonna do this. I was like, I just gave him the punchline he was looking for.
- [28:05]
B
You know, you were, oh, people wanna know, Kevin, was the number of pants you packed in fact sufficient? Yes. Yes, it was.
- [28:14]
A
Okay, well, I'm just saying, sometimes I'll look over and you're wearing these pants and they'll be like, covered in dust somehow. I'm like, how did that happen? Were you at a construction site?
- [28:24]
B
But you know what? At least I'm wearing pants.
- [28:26]
A
Oh, my God.
- [28:27]
B
You weren't able to do say that.
- [28:28]
A
It was a disgrace. It was a calamity. I had to Uber because we didn't, you know, we didn't get a rental car because we weren't staying at the hotel. We didn't have to pay the parking fees, blah, blah, blah. Went to the, went to the Uber and I had to Uber to a Aurora, Colorado Walmart where I spent what felt like five hours running through the aisles trying to find an appropriate, you know, skirt skirts to purchase. And.
- [28:57]
B
And while you were doing that, I was enjoying a leisurely breakfast at the Moonlight Diner, having some delicious French toast, some great orange juice, a soda.
- [29:09]
A
Carefully ensconced in your fresh pants.
- [29:13]
B
I was attired appropriately to appear in public. As I had planned, all my plans had come to fruition.
- [29:23]
A
Oh, man. I was furiously stomping around that Walmart. If anyone saw me, it was because I was angry with myself for putting myself in that situation. I still don't know where those skirts went, but I must. I mean, I have, I have a tendency to pick things up and put them down somewhere and then not remember.
- [29:45]
B
Yes.
- [29:46]
A
And just get amnesia about where they are and then find them months later and be like, ah, well, that's what happened. So.
- [29:54]
B
So Crimecon began on that fraught note.
- [29:56]
A
It was actually very fraught for me because I was just like, I want to look nice for the listeners and I'm going to look terrible. But it was, you know, what else? I mean, I think that's what people have come to expect. So it was fine. People expect me to look like I've just had a breakdown in a Walmart. That's the vibe I bring to the, to bring to the program and bring to the, you know, in life, in life, in real life events. So I was able to get some skirts at the Walmart. And then we. We absconded to, you know, well, I went and met you at the. The diner. And then we went directly to CrimeCon to sign in, because it was getting close to the time where we had to sign in.
- [30:34]
B
So then I want to tell one other quick anecdote, and then I'll turn it over to you. A lot of people there who've been there before really had, like, lots of great things on their table, and we didn't really have that.
- [30:55]
A
That's really.
- [30:56]
B
I'm being honest. I mean, that's the reality.
- [30:59]
A
You're correct.
- [31:00]
B
We had us. We had one copy of the book.
- [31:03]
A
Come look at two awkward people, and.
- [31:05]
B
Then we had a roll of stickers to say, the murder sheet. And you've all seen rolls of stickers. They're on kind of waxy coated paper. And Anya was going to give stickers to people, and we had scissors with us. And then we said, well, maybe scissors aren't allowed in, because I'm sure there'd be security. And so we go in without scissors. And that means Anya is, like, tearing these stickers off individually. And so because of that, the. The tears are kind of jagged. So the paper, the sticker on it is a little bit, you know, jagged and rough, which for some reason, Anya felt very, very self conscious about. I'm not sure why, but she was. And she was apologizing to people for that. And so I was just walking up.
- [31:55]
A
To random people and apologizing to them.
- [31:58]
B
And so a very kind podcast host. I don't know if we'll identify him or not, but he's trying to make Anya feel better.
- [32:06]
A
He should identify him. Put him on blast.
- [32:09]
B
Do it, Dave from the Detective. He sees Anya's distress. He's trying to be kind, and he says, it's no big deal, because after you give them to people, they're just gonna throw them away. And what he meant. What he meant is people are going to peel the sticker off the backing, they're gonna keep the sticker, and they're gonna throw the backing that's torn roughly away. But it sounded for a second like he was saying Anja was gonna be giving people these stickers, and they were just going to immediately toss them. And so his co host, like, looked on with horror.
- [32:48]
A
Steve was like, what? And then it was the funniest thing. We were just all like, oh, my God, Dave, what? And then we're like, oh, wait, that makes sense.
- [32:56]
B
But, yeah, he's a very nice man.
- [32:58]
A
They're the best. I love Dave. And Steve, honestly, getting to hang out with them was a highlight of CrimeCon for me. They were.
- [33:04]
B
That incident also tells you something about him. He's a very perceptive man, and he can tell when people are upset. He tries to make them feel better.
- [33:13]
A
In fairness, though, I think I'm not very good at keeping my nerves, like, quiet. So I. I probably was telegraphing they're great guys.
- [33:22]
B
The podcast is the detectives.
- [33:24]
A
You have to check out the detectives. Guys is.
- [33:27]
B
You have to do it. You don't have any choice.
- [33:29]
A
I'm sorry. You don't. And I'm just going to say, like it very much. It. They're. They're wonderful people. The podcast is very good. And it's just all about this insight into what it's actually like to be in law enforcement that I think is sorely needed in true crime. Because it's one thing for all of us to sort of speculate about what that's like, and it's another thing to actually work in that field and be able to bring that to the table. And they're just so common sense and reasonable and nice and so please check them out. I just, you know, they're the detectives.
- [33:59]
B
Wonderful.
- [33:59]
A
I. I like. I don't listen to a lot of true crime podcasts anymore. All the time I listen to, you know, things, you know, I certainly have my go tos that I'm always listening to, but then I have a lot where it's like I've just kind of fallen off it, because once you work in the, in this, you're just, you know, it's bombarded constantly, so you kind of are more selective. And they're like one of the few that I can't miss at this point. So, like, that's. I mean, that's a. That's. That's notable for me.
- [34:28]
B
Yes, it's. It's a. It's a great program. Anya's giving it five bags of popcorn.
- [34:34]
A
Oh, shut up.
- [34:36]
B
That is our highest possible recommendation. In all seriousness, it's a great show. You need to be listening to it.
- [34:43]
A
Yes, yes.
- [34:44]
B
And also, they're great people.
- [34:45]
A
They're wonderful, honestly. As I said, hanging out with them was a highlight of CrimeCon for me.
- [34:49]
B
We got to spend a lot of time with them over the weekend.
- [34:51]
A
Yeah, we forced them to stand at our table, like, the whole time. No, I'm just kidding. We let them go a few times, but it was very fun.
- [34:59]
B
And I'll say one thing that brings up something. There have been times, Anya, when you and I have been out in public with someone who's connected to the Delphi case. And people will recognize us and come up and say nice things about us when we're standing right next to someone who also deserves attention. And we're not sure if they want that attention, so we don't say anything. But one of the wonderful things about CrimeCon is if a person's at CrimeCon, obviously they're open to some attention. So there was a couple of occasions when, for instance, Nick McClelland would happen to be at our booth and someone would come up and say to us, oh, I'm a lawyer. I really appreciate how Nick McClelland put this case together. And I can say, well, you know, you can tell him, look, he's right over there.
- [35:47]
A
He's right behind you. Don't look now.
- [35:51]
B
That was gratifying.
- [35:52]
A
That was fun. I know. I was like, I was so happy that people who are associated with the Delphi case got to come and basically get that sort of affirmation from the true crime community because God knows they've gotten a lot of hate from losers on the Internet. But that's a small minority.
- [36:11]
B
I mean, yeah, there's a small number of people who have been really, really.
- [36:14]
A
Critical, actually I would say abusive in some cases, like stalking and harassing. And, you know, not just critical.
- [36:22]
B
Yeah, they are loud, but they are.
- [36:24]
A
Not many, actually, believe it or not, folks. And this might surprise some of you, but most people who like true crime actually appreciate it when a child murderer is arrested and convicted. So I think most people are pretty much on that side of things. And CrimeCon very much underscores it because CrimeCon for me, and, you know, having never been there, I didn't quite know what to expect. But it's the people who definitely care a lot about true crime, but they're thoughtful about it. By and large, it seems like a very positive community. And that was what we experienced. And it's people who have common sense about true crime. I think sometimes crime con is portrayed as like, oh, everyone's obsessed with true crime. Yes. But they, like, are obsessed in a way where they actually understand it and they understand what's important. And it was very victim centric. It was very thoughtful and very compassionate. And that was the consistent vibe that I got when we were there.
- [37:15]
B
Me too. It was really a wonderful experience. We got to meet a lot of listeners. There was.
- [37:21]
A
That was such a gratifying thing for me.
- [37:22]
B
There was a steady flow of people to our threadbare table. Threadbare. Because we didn't prepare as we should.
- [37:30]
A
Who did not. Now we've learned things. And, like, there was stuff where, like, we should have figured out, like, yeah, get a tablecloth, duh. But we just. We didn't. We just, like, sometimes we have to do things, and then we understand it better. So we have some ideas. If they. If they let us back, we would. Which we would love to go again. We would like, you know, to spruce things up a bit. But it was. It was. It was so gratifying to meet so many listeners. And there was just people like, I've been listening to you since Burger Chef, and we're just like, we're sorry. You've been in it for the long haul, so apologies. And some people kind of got to know us through the Delphi case. Some people who kind of have even come on just recently. And it was so gratifying and so nice, and all these people were just so kind. And so to everyone who came up and said hi to us at CrimeCon, thank you so much. And to everyone who kind of hung out or kind of kept coming back, thank you so much. Like, it means the world to us that you listened to. And some people are like, I don't want to bother you. You're not bothering us. You're just not. So don't worry about that. Like, it was. It was. I mean, it. Even just kind of walking around at times. We'd run into people so nice. And I met so many people where I was just like, these people are awesome. And I think some people were like, oh, I'm sorry, you don't know me. But, like, I feel like I know you. And, like, that's parasocial. And I'm like, listen, half of you guys comment a lot in the Facebook group or patrons or have emailed with us and have long email correspondences. So the parasocial stuff goes both ways. Because I'm like, I feel like I know you because we've been chatting for so long, even if we haven't met in person.
- [39:00]
B
People who say that are invariably cool. And the sort of people we would be friends with.
- [39:04]
A
Yeah. Inevitably it's like, oh, and I'm like, the coolest person in the world. So I'm like, you know, like, just chatting and, like, awesome. And so we're like, yeah, we would be friends with you in real life. Absolutely. It's just, you know, so don't. Don't be shy and don't be embarrassed. It's. We. We were going to hang out with people like that to hang out with the listeners, you know, predominantly, and other creators that respect. So getting to do that was amazing.
- [39:28]
B
It was really wonderful. It was a steady flow of people. So we spent probably about 90% of our crime con at our table. We went to the Delphi panels.
- [39:37]
A
We went to both. There were two Delphi panels, one on the Friday and one on Saturday, and we went to both of those and then sort of hung around. At one point, we were kind of ambling around the food trucks, but other than that, we were pretty much at the.
- [39:50]
B
Ambling around the food trucks. We were waiting in line to get food, and then we were.
- [39:55]
A
Well, we were deciding what we wanted. It.
- [39:57]
B
You make it sound like we were doing something suspicious, weren't we?
- [40:01]
A
Yeah, we. We. We. We definitely had a really good time, and it was just grat. I mean, again, I see. Gratifying. It really was. It was just. It was. It meant a lot to me, Honestly.
- [40:11]
B
I. I loved it. People would come up sometimes. They'd make references to, like, little jokes we'd made on the show. They'd make references to funny things we said in ads. And it's. It's great people are listening because it's. It's. It sounds strange, but I saw Brett from the prosecutors write on his Facebook page that podcasting could sometimes be a little bit lonely. The fact of the matter is, however you're experiencing this, it's. Anya and I are sitting in a room with a couple of microphones just talking to each other, and that can be a little lonely. So it's nice when you get to interact with people who are out there listening to your words.
- [40:51]
A
Yes, it was. It was it. Yeah, that's exactly right. It is a bit, you know, meeting people who are enjoying it and have. And have feedback and have thoughts and have they want to discuss the cases with you. That means a lot because, yeah, we are. Brett is correct. We. We are just sort of sitting here yapping at each other, and we do that all day anyway about a variety of topics. So getting to kind of expand that and really feel more of a community is so nice. And I just. Yeah, it was just such a positive thing. I. It was great to meet. We got to actually meet Brett and Alice in real life, which is surreal because I feel like we've met them before, but we haven't because we've only ever talked on, like, zoom and, like, lives and stuff. So that was incredible. They're wonderful people. I just cannot say enough good things. We actually got Brett's book and got him to sign it so that's going on our. Our many shelves that look like they're about to collapse behind us.
- [41:45]
B
A few.
- [41:46]
A
Getting to meet Alice was amazing. I'm like, she's just the most bubbly, personable, wonderful person. Like, just like. I. I love these people.
- [41:53]
B
A few listeners even came up and said, kevin, have you gotten a good fish sandwich?
- [41:58]
A
They did.
- [41:58]
B
They were concerned, and they were concerned, and rightfully so.
- [42:01]
A
He didn't.
- [42:02]
B
I didn't.
- [42:03]
A
I liked the fish place we went to. I'm not gonna name them because you didn't really like it as much, but I thought it was good, so.
- [42:09]
B
Yeah, well. And then we know who's the connoisseur and who isn't.
- [42:12]
A
And the wait staff was so nice and wonderful. But I would say also by the Moonlight Diner. Oh, yeah, that was okay. We went to the Moonlight Diner a lot. That was awesome. It had kind of a retro feel, which is fun. Nighthawks, except it was morning.
- [42:29]
B
We went there for breakfast. Well, you went there for breakfast two days. Cause one day you were at Walmart.
- [42:33]
A
One day I was at Walmart. Very upset with myself.
- [42:37]
B
I was there all three days. Great French toast, great omelets, great ambiance, great company.
- [42:42]
A
Oh, yeah. And we also. What else did we do? We got to meet Julia from the consult. She's amazing. Love her. We were almost neighbors on Crime Con Row, but she was so nice and wonderful, and I just, you know, I think the world of her. And we got to meet Nick and the captain from True Crime Con R Row.
- [43:03]
B
We already met them.
- [43:04]
A
Oh, we did. They were, like, the only people we ever actually met, but we met them separately. So now we met them together. So that was cool. And, you know, just a lot of people that were super cool that we've admired or we've had on the show before. We've had James Renner on the show before, the author. And we got to meet him and just chat with him. So there's just people that you kind of meet. And then there was other stuff, like Christina Byington, who we've had on the show before. She sent in a bunch of bracelets that we were able to put on our table, kind of commemorating her cousin Anita, who was murdered. People took those, like, very quickly. So just made me feel like more part of the community, honestly, sometimes in True Crime, I felt like we're kind of, you know, we. We say what we think. We try to keep it a hundred, as the kids say, and. And be real and. And be opinionated and be forceful in our opinions. But that sometimes makes me feel everybody hates us. And sort of like, I've compared to, like, you know, in the movie the Warriors. The warriors is like the odd gang out and, like, all the other gangs are trying to, like, kill them and like, a less violent version of that, you know, where we're just kind of like, everyone's like, oh, these people. But, you know, kind of being able to kind of come and interact and be more part of the community meant. Meant a great deal and also meant a great deal. We talked a little bit about the Delphi panelists. Do you want to talk about that?
- [44:29]
B
Sure. I'll say. We were told that our book was it the bookstore there, and it sold out.
- [44:33]
A
It sold out. Yeah. They had a. They had a number of copies there, and then somebody, One of our kind friends, Megan, who's also been on the show, she texted us a picture of, like, it had. It was, like, last copies left, so it seemed to have sold out. We got. We signed a lot of people's books and gave book plates to others. And that was really cool to see that it sold out because it was like, whoa. Like, that's amazing. I mean, we've. We've gotten. We've, like, all that stuff is hard to drag, frankly, but we've. We've been happy with how the book's been doing. But just seeing that in real life was just like, oh, my God. Like, that's an honor.
- [45:11]
B
I said, we had a steady stream of people. We also had a steady stream of people saying they couldn't find us and missed us. And again, that was. I think that was our fault because we didn't have anything really on the table saying murder sheet.
- [45:22]
A
We just above the sign that said murder sheet.
- [45:24]
B
It was just us sitting there. So.
- [45:25]
A
So if you.
- [45:26]
B
We'll do better next time.
- [45:27]
A
If you are at CrimeCon this time and missed us, please send us an email because, you know, we'd like to, you know, chat and make it up to you. So we're sorry, but. But, yeah, like, just shoot us an email@murdersheetgmail.com. but. But to everyone we did see, thank you so much for coming. It just made us feel so welcome, and it was just a really special experience. So, you know, people were like, oh, it's an honor to meet you. It was an honor to meet all of you on our part. So. So that. That. The honor is ours.
- [45:54]
B
You said you want to talk about the deli panels?
- [45:56]
A
Yeah. First one was with Prosecutor McLeland and Lt. Jerry Holman of the Indiana State police. And Susan Hendricks was the moderator. Moderator. And I thought both panels were great. I thought, you know, they kind of discussed.
- [46:11]
B
The other one was about with families.
- [46:13]
A
The other one was with. It was with Anna, who's Abby's mom, as well as Libby's family members, including her granddad Mike, her grandmother Becky, her. Her cousin, who was really almost more like brother Josh, and her Aunt Tara. And I don't think I'm forgetting anyone.
- [46:33]
B
Tara's wife was there, but she did not go on stage. And I'll just say she's a wonderful person.
- [46:38]
A
She's amazing. I love her, but she's a gem. Yeah, she is a gem. But all of them are gems too. I mean, these are people who, like, suffered the most and have just consistently just dealt with, you know, everything with grace under fire and so much classiness and so much strength. And so I actually, I'm. I'm always crying nowadays, but getting to see the families up there, talking about their experiences and talking about what the girls meant to them and talking about what they've been through and talking about how they're trying to ensure that they have, these girls have a legacy because they didn't get to leave one themselves. They have to leave, you know, the families have to leave one for them. Made me cry. It made me tear up, and it was beautiful. They're wonderful people. They have really found a community in Crime Con. And the book actually kind of goes into that a little bit, but they've found a community just with the more positive side of true crime. And I can, having been there now, I can totally understand that very clearly because again, we all associate sometimes true crime with the negative side of like, people just saying whatever online. And that's very real and a problem, but it really isn't the majority and we shouldn't. We shouldn't see them as the majority and we shouldn't give them too much power in our minds. I think sometimes I've been guilty about that where I've kind of let it make me pessimistic about true crime. And, you know, maybe there are some things to be pessimistic about and that we have to kind of try to work on. But we shouldn't forget that there is a very strong positive side where people are actually victim centric, people are actually thoughtful and they're trying to do their best.
- [48:12]
B
Yeah. So basically we were nervous, but it was a very rewarding experience. And the reason why it was rewarding ultimately was because of all of you. I think we have a tremendous AUDIENCE and we love and appreciate you, and we would not be able to do this. We would not be able to continue to do it without all of you. And we thank you for your support along this journey.
- [48:35]
A
And congratulations to everybody. So the, the Delphi Group received the Crime Fighter of the Year award. They were awarded that by John Walsh, who, of course, is Adam Walsh's father, who founded America's Most Wanted, which has been a pretty influential true crime program, has resulted in a lot of actual arrests and cases, and he won it last year. So he presented it this year to the families of Abby and Libby, as well as prosecutor Nicholas McLeland and Lt. Jerry Holman. I mean, these people have all been through something pretty extreme. The families, the loss of these girls, and then the advocacy they've done and the. In, in terms of the investigators and in terms of the prosecutorial team, just a tremendous effort in terms of trying to secure justice for these girls.
- [49:30]
B
And, and I, I should stress also, it. It was clear that Lt. Holman and Prosecutor McLeland were there as representatives because Lt. Holman was representing, really, all the investigators who worked on this case. So not only him, there's Sheriff Tony Liggett, all sorts of other people worked on this case, Steve Mullen, some great detectives from a number of agencies. On the prosecutorial side, we talk a lot about Nicholas McLelan, but he was working with an excellent team. James Luttrell and Stacy Deener.
- [50:11]
A
Yeah. And of all their support staff and all the people who supported them and, you know, people like Kathy Shank, who'd volunteered her time and made such a huge difference in this case and really ultimately helped get the outcome. And, and I just, I think these people are so deserving, and I'm glad they got recognized, and I'm glad they got to see that, you know, people appreciate what they did because I think for a long time, everyone's been sort of basking in the. In the hate and the like, weird stalkers who have no lives, you know, doing whatever, and they don't matter. I mean, they just. The reason they're doing that is because they're powerless in their own lives and probably having a tremendous amount of personal stress and crises that they're trying to work out in a situation that doesn't involve them. So I think people like that are best sidelined, ignored, devalued, you know, and the emphasis should be on the people who are in true crime and being pro social, you know, instead of antisocial. So I was very. It was very gratifying to see them get that award.
- [51:15]
B
We couldn't sit together on the flights. No.
- [51:17]
A
I missed you. Yeah, I was looking for you. And also I was reading a book with a really disturbing title. So I was kind of concerned that everyone sitting next to me was going to think I was a freaking weirdo, which they probably did, and it's fine.
- [51:31]
B
But there was some people on both of our flights who attended crime con.
- [51:36]
A
There were. We saw them, and then we saw them on the way back, and we were like, hello, flight friends. We're not stalking you. Those people had to deal with too much murder sheet at first. They're like, hey. I'm like, oh, my God, we're following you guys. Yeah. But it was. It was great. It was a great experience. I would. I again. I would be honored to do it again. And I. I don't know if we'll be asked back, but it would be very cool and we'd love to go back.
- [52:02]
B
And so does this conclude the CrimeCon portion of the program?
- [52:07]
A
Yeah, I think so. Unless there was something else you wanted to say.
- [52:10]
B
So now are we going to move into your concluding remarks, which you've said are going to be a little bit emotional?
- [52:17]
A
Why are you setting me up like that?
- [52:19]
B
Well, I'm trying to ease it. Be more natural.
- [52:23]
A
Okay, let's see them more natural. Kevin.
- [52:27]
B
Wow, Anya, it was really special to see all those people get that award. There's really some great people connected to this case. And of course, we just seen some of them a few days earlier at the Biscuits company signing.
- [52:40]
A
Oh, you're throwing it back to Biscuit? Back. Back to Biscuits? Well, yeah. Okay, So. I don't know. This is so corny. I'm like. I was debating about whether or not to say this because it's corny. I'm sorry. The. The Delphi case obviously means a great deal to Kevin and I because we were immersed in it for so long, and Abby and Libby's stories really resonated with us. And just like so many things, and we spent years of our lives sort of, you know, going into it. Right. And so one of the things that struck me about all the appearances we've done so far and even some of the media conversations we've had, sort of then, like, talking with reporters and journalists off the record afterwards, and, like, things like just meeting people and signing books and whatnot, it struck me like we all really did kind of go through that together, you know, like, I mean, we. Kevin and I were there, but people were listening to the trial coverage and the pre trial coverage, and they were kind of experiencing along with us. So there was just something about that that made me feel, I don't know, like, on the one hand, like, sorry, sorry, because I know it was kind of horrible at times, but also like, thank you for sticking with us. And it made me feel like, I don't know, we're just part of this community and less alone and very gratifying. And it's interesting with Delphi because I'm sure anyone who's listened to the trial coverage or read the book or, you know, had any sort of, you know, you can understand that a case like that was somewhat, you know, we were choosing to be there, but seeing some of that stuff and hearing some of that stuff and experiencing some of that stuff was. Was a bit traumatic. And again, not. Not to the same extent that people who are the family members and not to the same extent the people who were like, in law enforcement or the attorneys had to go through. And again, we were choosing to be there, but it was rough at times. And then going immediately from that to writing a book and kind of resurfacing all of that, it just was. It was a lot, but it was. It was something that. Now that we're able to kind of connect with people over it, that's been very validating. I always told Kevin, you know, like, it was. I don't know, like, this is such a dumb thing to say, so pardon me, but there was this song I started listening to a lot of around, like, the Buildup for Trial. And I. I love this song. It's. I Don't Live Here Anymore by the War on Drugs. And I said to Kevin, at some point, I'm like, yeah, when trial's over, like, this song is gonna play in my head as we, like, walk down the ramp for the last time and like, leave, you know, because it's. It's a song about sort of moving on and like, you know, kind of moving past stuff. And in a way, though, like, that didn't happen. And I feel like on some level, like, emotionally we kind of. I mean, I'd be curious about your thoughts on this, but, like, we kind of stayed at the trial and we kind of stayed there forever. I mean, like, in a way, like, it kind of changed us. Is that fair to say?
- [56:05]
B
It's definitely fair to say.
- [56:07]
A
Like, there was not. There was not this easy walk away thing, but. And this is where I kind of get emotional, like meeting some of you at the biscuit shop and meeting some of the people who were in the book who came up and said, thank you for telling the truth and all of that. It was like, maybe we don't need to move on. Maybe like meeting some of those people and getting those connections between the listeners and the people who are on the show in some capacity or part of the story. Maybe that maybe I always saw it as perhaps like, oh, we'll never leave Delphi in spirit. We'll always be there. And like that maybe being kind of a bad thing because it was very difficult, but maybe it's not. Maybe it doesn't have to be a bad thing. And when, I kid you not, when we were driving away from the biscuit shop, I'm like playing around with our serious fm, which I love, and that. That song came on the radio and I, I just started crying because it was like, maybe we can. Maybe we can focus on the positive of the girls legacies and focusing. Focus on supporting their families with that going forward and focus on the, you know, just the trying to do everything we can to, to make sure that people remember Abby and Libby beyond what happened to them and. And maybe that can be the. The moving on side of things, even if we never really fully move on. So. I'm sorry to get corny. Um, I'm sorry to get corny, but just. I just, I. I just couldn't believe that song played as we were leaving. I was just like, geez, so I'm crying. And then I'm like, okay, stop crying cause I'm driving. But I think Kevin was probably like, Anya's losing her mind as usual. But, you know, I just want to also say it was. It's been an honor to work with Kevin on this because he is a prince among men and is so easy to work with, even though I'm a terrible perfectionist and just always having some kind of emotional breakdown at Walmart on the drive home from Delphi or otherwise. But he, he makes working together very easy.
- [58:29]
B
Anya is also wonderful to work with, even when she's obsessing over whether or not I have enough pairs of pants.
- [58:39]
A
Yes. But, yeah, so that's, that's how everything with the book is going. And we just appreciate all of you for sort of sticking with us and kind of going on this journey with us and appreciate everybody, you know, for doing that, because I. It's meant the world to us.
- [58:55]
B
Thank you.
- [58:56]
A
Thank you.
- [58:58]
B
Thanks so much for listening to the Murder Sheet. If you have a tip concerning one of the cases we cover, please email us@murdersheetmail.com if you have actionable information about an unsolved crime, please report it to the appropriate authorities.
- [59:18]
A
If you're interested in joining our Patreon, that's available at www.patreon.com murdersheet. If you want to tip us a bit of money for records requests, you can do so at www. Buymeacoffee.com murdersheet. We very much appreciate any support.
- [59:42]
B
Special thanks to Kevin Tyler Greenlee, who composed the music for the Murder Sheet and who you can find on the web@kevintg.com if you're looking to talk with.
- [59:53]
A
Other listeners about a case we've covered, you can join the Murder Sheet Discussion group on Facebook. We mostly focus our time on research and reporting, so we're not on social media much. We do try to check our email account, but we ask for patience as we often receive a lot of messages. Thanks again for listening.