Cheat Sheet: Presumptions and Professors

Summary

Murder Sheet Podcast Episode Summary
Title: Cheat Sheet: Presumptions and Professors
Hosts: Áine Cain (Journalist) and Kevin Greenlee (Attorney)
Release Date: February 7, 2025

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1. Introduction to the Episode

In this episode of Murder Sheet, hosts Áine Cain and Kevin Greenlee delve into three compelling true crime cases, exploring themes of legal presumption and the complexities within the criminal justice system. The episode, titled "Cheat Sheet: Presumptions and Professors," examines cases from Indiana, Colorado, and New York, highlighting issues ranging from child disappearance to judicial misconduct.

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2. Case Study 1: The Mysterious Disappearance of Hayden Manus (Indiana)

Overview:
The episode opens with the harrowing case of nine-year-old Hayden Manus from Indiana. Hayden was under the custody of his grandparent after his father, Dustin Manus, struggled with drug addiction. In 2019, despite the grandparent's objections, custody was returned to Dustin, after which the family lost all contact with Dustin and Hayden.

Key Developments:

• False Claims by Dustin Manus: Dustin falsely reported that Child Protective Services (CPS) had taken Hayden away, a claim quickly debunked through accessible government records.

• Dustin's Death: In December 2024, Dustin was arrested on drug charges, later released on bail, and subsequently died from an overdose, complicating the investigation into Hayden's whereabouts.

• Ongoing Investigation: Authorities remain determined to uncover Hayden's fate, urging anyone with information to contact the Delaware County Sheriff's Investigations Division.

Notable Quotes:

• Kevin Greenlee ([12:00]):
  "I personally don't believe that Hayden is still alive. He's nine. He can't just go... He's a child, you know, if he's not with the people he's supposed to be with, that's a really ominous bad sign."

• Áine Cain ([11:12]):
  "We want answers and figure out what happened. And so their investigation is proceeding and they're actively interested in more information from anyone who might have such information."

Insights and Discussions:

The hosts highlight the systemic failures that may have contributed to Hayden’s disappearance, questioning the lack of follow-up from CPS after returning custody to Dustin. They express deep concern over the potential abuse Hayden may have suffered and the broader implications for child welfare systems.

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3. Case Study 2: The Colorado Murder of Seorin Kim and the Death of Their Child

Overview:
Shifting focus to Colorado, the hosts explore the tragic case of Nicholas Micklebust, a 44-year-old professor at Regis College, who was arrested for the murder of his wife, Seorin Kim, and the tampering of evidence. This case is further complicated by the earlier death of their nine-day-old child, Bear Micklebust, in 2021 from skull fractures.

Key Developments:

• Evidence Against Nicholas Micklebust:

  • Micklebust's hands were found bloody, bruised, and swollen, suggesting physical altercations.
  • Seorin Kim’s death was ruled a homicide by blunt force trauma, with defensive scratches observed on Micklebust.
  • Bloody gloves were discovered in the dryer, indicating possible evidence tampering.

• Civil Complaint by the Victim’s Parents:
  Seorin Kim’s parents filed a civil lawsuit aiming to prevent Micklebust from profiting from her death, seeking justice outside the criminal proceedings.

• Comparison to O.J. Simpson Case:
  The hosts discuss the distinction between criminal and civil cases, referencing how Micklebust could face different outcomes in each, similar to the infamous O.J. Simpson trials.

Notable Quotes:

• Áine Cain ([05:27]):
  "This is a terrible story. It's awful."

• Kevin Greenlee ([29:19]):
  "True crime podcasts are a bit like investments when it comes to your time. You're taking a few spare minutes here and there, tuning in and building up a knowledge base to set yourself up in the future."

Insights and Discussions:

Cain and Greenlee analyze the complexities of prosecuting such cases, especially when the defendant is deceased, limiting the pursuit of truth and justice. They underscore the importance of civil actions in holding perpetrators accountable, even when criminal convictions are unattainable.

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4. Case Study 3: Judicial Misconduct in New York – Judge Richard T. Snyder

Overview:
The third case examines judicial misconduct involving Richard T. Snyder, a judge from Petersburg, New York. Snyder attempted to avoid jury duty, citing a personal bias that presumed all defendants are guilty, thereby questioning the foundational principle of "presumption of innocence."

Key Developments:

• Snyder’s Bias:
  Judge Snyder openly declared that he believes in the guilt of anyone accused of a crime, undermining the impartiality required for jury service.

• Public and Legal Response:
  The New York State Commission on Judicial Conduct condemned Snyder’s stance, stating, "There is no place on the bench for someone who so deeply misunderstands the role of a judge in the administration of justice."

• Impact on Judicial Integrity:
  The episode discusses the potential repercussions of such biases on past and future cases overseen by Snyder, raising concerns about the integrity of judicial proceedings in his purview.

Notable Quotes:

• Kevin Greenlee ([46:17]):
  "The presumption of innocence is very important. We don't just assume that someone is arrested and therefore they're guilty."

• Áine Cain ([48:17]):
  "He's not going to be a judge anymore."

Insights and Discussions:

The hosts delve into the essential role of the presumption of innocence in the justice system, critiquing Snyder’s blatant disregard for this principle. They emphasize how such attitudes can erode public trust in the legal system and potentially lead to miscarriages of justice.

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5. Apology and Episode Wrap-Up

Towards the end of the episode, Áine and Kevin address an earlier episode's mistake involving misinformation about Taylor Swift's favorite candy. Áine apologizes for the error, and the hosts engage in lighthearted banter about correcting their mistake and promoting their merchandise.

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Conclusion

In "Cheat Sheet: Presumptions and Professors," Murder Sheet offers a deep dive into significant true crime cases, illuminating systemic issues within child welfare, criminal investigations, and the judiciary. Through meticulous analysis and poignant discussions, Áine Cain and Kevin Greenlee provide listeners with a comprehensive understanding of each case's complexities and broader societal implications.

For more detailed insights and updates on these cases, listeners are encouraged to visit the Murder Sheet website and follow their ongoing investigations and reporting.

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Notable Timestamped Quotes:

• [12:00] Kevin Greenlee:
  "I personally don't believe that Hayden is still alive. He's nine. He can't just go..."

• [05:27] Áine Cain:
  "This is a terrible story. It's awful."

• [29:19] Kevin Greenlee:
  "True crime podcasts are a bit like investments when it comes to your time."

• [46:17] Kevin Greenlee:
  "The presumption of innocence is very important."

• [48:17] Áine Cain:
  "He's not going to be a judge anymore."

---

Further Engagement:

Listeners seeking to support the podcast or contribute information on the discussed cases can reach out via the provided contact channels. Additionally, Áine and Kevin mention their upcoming book, "Shadow of the Bridge," which promises an in-depth exploration of the Delphi murders and related investigations.

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Note: This summary excludes promotional segments and focuses solely on the substantive content discussed in the episode.

Transcript

[Anya Cain]

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[Kevin Greenlee]

Get started risk [e-mail] Wondry Content warning this episode contains discussion of murder as well as violence, including the murder of children and infants. So today on the Murder sheet, we have one case out of our current state of Indiana.

[Anya Cain]

This is for the Cheat sheet.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Yeah, and this is for the Cheat Sheet. And then we have two cases out of New York state, my home state, and then an additional one out of Colorado, which is a state I don't think I've ever been to before. So let's get into it.

[Anya Cain]

You were at Colorado? Briefly.

[Kevin Greenlee]

I've had, I don't think like a stopover layover on a flight counts, but I'd love to go back. All right, let's get to it. My name is Anya Cain. I'm a journalist.

[Anya Cain]

And I'm Kevin Greenlee. I'm an attorney.

[Kevin Greenlee]

And this is the Murder Sheet.

[Anya Cain]

We're a true crime podcast focused on original reporting, interviews, and deep dives into murder cases.

[Kevin Greenlee]

We're the Murder Sheet and this is the cheat Sheet. Presumptions and professors it.

[Anya Cain]

Well, we're going to start with a case out of Indiana that was recently featured on WTHR.com and the story was done by Bob Siegel, who, some of you may recall, he did a lot of work on the Delphi case. I think we saw him in the courthouse pretty regularly.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Very, very nice man.

[Anya Cain]

Very nice man. And I should say this is a terrible story.

[Kevin Greenlee]

He did an excellent job digging into this, too. It's, it's, it's, it's awful. It's awful.

[Anya Cain]

It's an awful story. There's a number of details that are not verified at this time. So we're not going to get into all of that. And those details also did not appear in Mr. Siegel's story. But I just want to say before we begin again that this is an awful story. And if you do watch the video version of it, that the video version of the story is Mr. Siegel presented it, you see footage of some prosecutors and other people discussing it. And you can just see in their eyes how haunted they are by some of these details which are not verified. But we can tell you the details that are verified. And I think there's certainly a lot here that prompts topics worth discussing.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Yeah, I'll just say, I mean, I mean this is not, this is not derogatorily meant, but prosecutors in law enforcement, that's a, that's work that can, you know, you've seen a lot of stuff potentially that's really bad. So I think when a case stands out as disturbing for people in that field, that says something.

[Anya Cain]

Yes. So this in case involves a child, a nine year old boy named Dustin man. Pardon me, Hayden Manus. Nine year old boy named Hayden. Manuscript. His father's name is Dustin. Dustin Manus had some drug problems. So his child, his son was taken away from him and the child was in the custody of a grandparent. And at some point he seems to be off the drugs. And so over the objection of the grandparent, the child Hayden is returned to the father, Dustin. And so this happens, I believe in 2019. The family then does not see Hayden or Dustin for years. And that is not their fault. They try to reach out to Dustin and say, we'd love to have you over for dinner. You and Hayden over for dinner. Love to see Hayden. And Dustin evades these texts and evades these invitations. He says, oh, we're busy now, but we're doing great, don't worry about us. And this goes on literally for years. And so at some point there's a situation where the family realizes, you know, by God, we haven't seen Hayden since 2019. And apparently back in I believe September, a couple of either grandmothers or great grandmothers of the child running into each other at a grocery store and they compare notes and they decide to contact authorities. So the father is then contacted and he offers up a story where he says, well, here's what happened back In I believe 2021, CPS, the Child Protective Services came and they took my son Hayden away from me. And so that's why Hayden's no longer around. And of course, whenever a governmental agency does something like that, there are records caps that are pretty easy to check. And so it is very easy to determine that his story of CPS taking his child is a complete lie. And so then the obvious question is, where is Hayden Manus? And police start really investigating this. And the next big development is in December of 2024 last year, just a couple of months ago, Dustin is arrested on drug charges. He is bailed out after being in custody, and then he overdoses and he dies. So now the man at the center of the mystery of what happened to Hayden is deceased. And that makes it harder than ever to try to get answers. There are stories going around that Hayden may have been subjected to some pretty extreme treatment in a house that.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Child abuse.

[Anya Cain]

Yeah, in a house that he lived in. A house that was shared with Dustin and his then girlfriend. The then girlfriend has moved out of state, saying it's just a coincidence I'm moving out of state. I was always planning to do this. So that's the situation the law enforcement, the prosecutors are saying. Obviously the fact that Dustin Manus is now deceased makes it harder to get answers, but we still want to get answers and figure out what happened. And so their investigation is proceeding and they're actively interested in more information from anyone who might have such information.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Yeah, I mean, this is horrifying. Obviously, the fact that authorities are only hearing about this disappearance years after the fact means that that is a. Going to be a difficult situation to overcome. I guess. I. It's horrifying. I don't understand. I mean, I'll just. I mean, I'll just be. I'll just be perfectly blunt here. Obviously, something very, very bad happened to this child. I personally don't believe that Hayden is still alive. He's nine. He can't just go. He's not like, you know, he's not a teenager where you can, you know, run away to a city somewhere and start over. I mean, they're. He's a child, you know, if he's not with the people he's supposed to be with, that's a really ominous bad sign.

[Anya Cain]

Yeah, that's a great point. Oftentimes, like, adults can go missing and there'd be no crimes committed. But for a child to vanish, there's very few legitimate reasons for that that don't involve crime.

[Kevin Greenlee]

A child is helpless in this world. You know, this is not the era of, like, child runaways or, you know, like, this is. This is really really bad. The fact that so many years have passed is really, really bad. The fact that, I mean, what, what blows my mind.

[Anya Cain]

There's a lot that blows my mind.

[Kevin Greenlee]

It makes me so angry. What blows my mind is that you always see this. You always, you see a child and the parents are oftentimes drug addicts and there is a loving relative who is happy and willing to take care of the child's needs them, you know, and God bless those relatives who step up in those situations. And then you see one or both of the parents fight to get the child back into their custody so that they can then abuse, torture and sometimes kill said child. And it's like, you know what if you want to wreck your lives with your bad decisions and drug addictions, fine. You know, I mean, again, I'm a recovering alcoholic. I get, I get what addiction can do to you. But why do you want to bring a child into that? Why are you fighting to bring your child into that instead of just letting them go, which in that case is the loving thing to do for your kid because then at least their needs are getting taken care of. Is it a possession thing? Is it like a pride thing of no one's going to raise my kid except me, even though I can't even friggin take care of my own life. I don't even under. What is the psychology behind that? I just don't understand. It seems like Hayden was being well cared for by his grandparent things, things worked out in that sense and he was ripped from that safe and loving environment and put back into a situation where God knows what happens. But like he's missing now and it's bad. I get so angry thinking I'm curious.

[Anya Cain]

As to why there were no subsequent visits to the home to make sure that he, that Hayden was safe, you know, subsequent visits by cps, they put him in the home. I'm not sure why they didn't follow up. I don't know what kind of resources CPS has available to them here in Indiana, but I would have hoped that after putting a child into a home that was previously found to have been unsafe, I would have hoped that they would have checked in on the child.

[Kevin Greenlee]

I don't understand. I know that in Indiana, like there's been a lot of controversy around DCS Department of Child Services, there's been, you know, different situations where there's been lawsuits and oftentimes I, I mean I, I tend to kind of view some of this as like, I, I think people who work in, in child protection have a very difficult job. And you always hear about the outcomes where things didn't work out. You hear about children being placed back into really dangerous environments where something horrible happens. You also hear about parents who actually may be really trying to get their lives back in order and maybe succeeding where they lose their kids and they can't get them back. And maybe that's not fair. That's kind of the opposite side of it. So I, I get that there's kind of, there's an impossibility here, but I agree. Where was the follow up? It sounds like Dustin completed some sort of court ordered drug program, which is great. And if that's a condition for him getting his son back, okay, fine, you know, I think, but like you would think that there would be mandates around. Okay, well, we're just gonna make sure everything's proceeding as, as, as it's supposed to. And I don't know whether this fell through the cracks or what happened, but it's, it's pretty, it's pretty baffling because, you know, a visit in person, visits with a child would have at least prevented it. Like, if the kid isn't there, then, you know, that's a. Earlier warning that something's very wrong. I don't understand. And hearing, yeah, hearing some of the, you know, it's horrible. I mean, this poor little boy deserved so much better. And I feel terrible for his family that wanted him and was looking for him. And you know, I don't, I don't know what they're supposed to do. I mean, they tried to get him out of this situation. It didn't work. They don't have a right to him. They don't have the custody. It's just, it's awful. It's just awful.

[Anya Cain]

So if you have information about this case, about Hayden, you are been asked to reach out to the Delaware County Sheriff's Investigations Division. The Number there is 765-747-7881. And again, that's the Delaware County Sheriff's Investigations Division.

[Kevin Greenlee]

And just please check out Bob Siegel's original report on this. It's got a lot more detail than we went into. It's got the interviews with the families. It's very comprehensive. So that's a really great start. You know, obviously you're listening to this episode, but go check that out, get even more details and, you know, just support a good local journalist. True crime podcasts are a bit like investments when it comes to your time. You're taking a few spare minutes here and there, tuning in and building up a knowledge base to set yourself up in the future. That way you can cash in and wow everyone with your insights about motions and lemonade when you watch the next big True Crime docuseries.

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[Anya Cain]

What case is this?

[Kevin Greenlee]

This is the case of Nicholas Micklebust Michael Bust. I'm sorry if I'm saying it wrong. I'm just going to say Micklebust and hope that's right. As a 44 year old man, a professor at at Regis in Colorado. This is in Denver and he was arrested for murdering his wife Seorin Kim and tampering with evidence. What happened was on I believe it was July 29th he called of 2024. So July 29th of 2024 early in the morning he calls 911- says he's found his wife. Blood is coming from her head. The baby is on the ground next to her not breathing. Paramedics and police show up. Wife is fatally injured and the baby daughter is dead and police immediately noticed some things that were wrong with his story, and we'll get into some of that evidence that came up recently. But the story has another disturbing wrinkle. On October 4, 2021, the couple's first child, Bear Micklebust, who was only nine days old at the time, died of skull fractures. There's no, there were no charges leveled at the time. So this is, this is where I've gotten some new details. This was on December 4, 2024. I'm saying, I'm sorry if I'm saying these names wrong, but Young He Kim and Awon Kim, who are Seorin's parents, they filed a civil complaint and jury demand in the district court, city and county of Denver, and it goes into not only who their daughter was, but also elements of the crime that's being alleged to have committed been committed here. So I thought this had a really poignant opening where it kind of describes who Seor and Kim was. And so I'm going to read that quickly. Quote, sjoran Kim was a dreamer. She loved Disney musicals and would every time laugh and cry with their triumphs and setbacks as she ate Red Apple jelly bellies for dinner with her sister, Soorin, loved her pet bunnies and composed the perfect trills on her piano and keyboard to capture their movements in a way that words and even videos alone truly could not. Music was her escape, but there was structure and discipline to her artistic expression, and even her hobbies were studied out and executed with diligence and deliberation. End quote. So we're getting a bit about her personality. This woman who was, who was killed, it turns out that she had quite an interesting job, actually. She was a forensic accountant for none other than the Federal Bureau of Investigation. So she worked for the FBI in that sense. And actually, on August 28, 2024, Director of the FBI Christopher Wray wrote a letter to her parents. This is what he wrote. Quote, for eight years, Ciaran was a valuable and highly regarded forensic accountant in our Denver division, receiving numerous awards for outstanding work. She demonstrated the fidelity, bravery, and integrity that everyone at the bureau hopes to achieve. I'm grateful for her dedicated service, and her legacy will be cherished by all those who knew and worked with her. So it turns out that Kim was the first child of Korean immigrant parents. So she was first generation American. And they described her as very driven to succeed, but she had this kind of almost magical artistic side to her personality. And they're saying now, of course, her husband hasn't been convicted yet, but they're saying she was murdered on July 29, 2024. And so it's important to note that. So the baby, Leslie, their daughter, her death has not been. She's not breathing at the scene. She died as well. Her death has not been charged at this point. So police have only charged Micklebust with his wife's murder, nothing regarding the child at this point.

[Anya Cain]

And.

[Kevin Greenlee]

And it sounds like they have not even sort of classified that as a homicide. So. But obviously, given the fact that what happened to Bear years earlier, it really does raise some concerns. The lawsuit goes on to list general allegations, and what they're saying is they're trying to sue Micklebus to prevent him from profiting from her murder. So the general allegations include that when police arrived at the home on Syracuse street in Denver, the defendant's hands were both bloody, bruised, swollen, as if they'd been used to strike something. They said that police photographed his hands, wrapped them up for testing, bagged them, and they even show a picture of him being taken, kind of held onto by police. He's all disheveled. His hands are all wrapped up, and you can actually see on his shirt, blood, and you can see on his neck and chest, bloody scratches. So it's faint, but you can see it in the image. The lawsuit goes on to say that Seon's body was found near a baby bassinet along a wall in the bedroom. She suffered multiple blunt injuries to her head and face. Now, her husband claims, well, she must have fallen from a step stool. They note that in this bedroom, there's no step stool, there's no ladder, there's no objects where it shows that she hit her head on that and that's what caused it. They said that police and paramedics felt that the injuries were not consistent with a fall. They were, in fact, consistent with someone hitting her. Again, this man's hands are swollen, bloody, bruised. They also note that the baby, Leslie, was unresponsive on a bed. She was not breathing. And this is again their second child to die under unusual circumstances. Paramedics and police also noted the defensive scratch marks on Micklebus neck, chest. They're seeing that, too. The Denver office of the Medical examiner ruled that Sjoran died of homicide by blunt force injuries to the head. And in addition to that, police also found bloody gloves in the dryer and on top of the dryer. And that's why he was charged with destroying or altering evidence, it sounds like. So the lawyers for the plaintiffs in this for the wrongful death case are Gregory Bentley, Shawn Dormer, Casey Harpering of Dormer harboring and that is what's happening with that. And in addition to that, just as another thing that kind of happened over the summer, the defense in this case has asked the judge to try to limit media coverage when possible, maybe not go for the live stream, things like that. So that's what's going on here. Obviously some very disturbing allegations and evidence against Micklebus. He'll have his day in court where he can try to explain some of that what, what happened there. But you know, certainly her parents are coming in and, and saying that, you know, he's the one who killed her. There can be these situations where I think there's a criminal case but then there's also a civil case. The famous one being of course O.J. simpson. He is acquitted of criminal charges but then he loses the civil suit.

[Anya Cain]

And there are different standards of proof required for a verdict in a criminal case as opposed to a civil case.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Yes. Although I would say in this case it sounds like there's some pretty bad evidence, some bad facts for Micklebust.

[Anya Cain]

It seems like you may not know this, but if you don't, maybe you can speculate. I'm curious, why do you suppose the defense doesn't want there to be media coverage or the media coverage to be limited?

[Kevin Greenlee]

You know, I really don't know and I, I, I was kind of fascinated by that because we've seen so many instances where you have defense attorneys who I might say are hungry for media attention because it be can be good for their practice on a sort of purely pragmatic, self centered approach or they feel like they can whip up the public to be, you know, in favor of their client and maybe that can help, you know, just kind of influence public opinion. Maybe it sways a jury pool in this case. I think, I mean what they basically said was it's going to take away from the solemnity of the proceedings. So they're saying we don't want a media circus. We want this to be a serious, thoughtful. I mean what they're basically saying is it almost was like, yeah, I don't.

[Anya Cain]

Know.

[Kevin Greenlee]

It'S, it's interesting.

[Anya Cain]

Why don't we move on to the first of two cases in New York, one of which is a lot more fun than the other.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Yours is more fun and that's one we're going to end on. Mine's not fun at all. It's awful. So this is again another listener recommendation. Thank you so much. To the person who recommended that we look into this. This is the, the death of 43 year old Robert Brooks at the Marcy Correctional Facility in the town of Marcy, New York. Marcy Correctional Facility is a men's medium security state prison in New York. And it's part of the very long title. This is in Indiana we have the Indiana Department of Correction or idoc. In New York, it's the New York State Department of Corrections and Community Service or N Y S, D O C C s. So that's, that's the system there. Brooks again was 43 and he was there because he was serving a 12 year sentence for a 2017 attack in which he stabbed his ex girlfriend. And for that he got first degree assault. So he's, that's why he was incarcerated at the time. So a lot of what I'm going to talk about revolves around body cam footage. About 15 minute span was released. It comes from the body cameras of several different correctional officers. And I watched all of it again, about 15 minutes. It was very disturbing. And we're going to talk about what, what I saw because on December 9, 2024, an incident happens involving Brooks and multiple correctional officers at Marcy. And the next day, December 10, he dies in Utica at Wynn Hospital. And a preliminary report found him to have died of asphyxia due to compression of the neck. Since then, this, this month in February, his death was ruled a homicide. So in the meantime there's been a lot of media coverage of this and what's been uncovered is that Marcy, Marcy Correctional Facility had a, A, a history of reports of prisoner abuse, including some of the same correctional officers involved in this incident. And it's a large group of people. It's, it's like 13 correctional officers. And that's one thing that struck me about the body cam footage. It's not a situation where you see a small group of people or like one or two people doing something. There are so many people in and out of this room when this is going on. And that's, there's something a bit chilling about that because you want to think that in a bad situation someone might step in and say, okay, let's, let's stop this, let's do something differently. But you have people smiling. No one seems to be really intervening. Another note about the body cam footage which was released on December 27, 2024. These were on standby mode, so they were not properly turned on. They were powered on, but they were not fully activated. What that means is that we can see what's happening visually, but there's no Sound. We cannot hear what's going on here, we cannot hear what's said, we cannot hear anything. So it's all muted. So what when I saw, when I watched this was. It seems to be some sort of medical office. Initially there's, you know, body cam footage of someone walking outside. You see grass in the night sky going inside. There's a man, Mr. Brooks, an African American man, he's in a green sort of prison looking jumpsuit. His hands are handcuffed behind his back and he is sitting on some sort of like medical table in this office. You can see a number of correctional officers around him. One of them is kind of has his hand on the back of Brooks's neck. And Brooks at this point seems to have a somewhat injured face from what I could see. Now when I'm looking at Brooks, I'm not seeing anything that indicates a lack of compliance. We can't hear what he's saying, but in terms of his actions, he's not fighting, he's not struggling, he's not really doing anything. And then one of the cos starts punching him. We don't know why that happened, but again, there's nothing I'm seeing visually that's like, oh, he's striking back because he's struggling, he's just, he's sitting there. So throughout this video, he becomes increasingly bloodied, bruised and limp. They hold him down, at times they pin his legs. When they're pinning down his legs, he does kind of kick back a bit, but it's like he's being pushed down at that time. Um, they pull his shirt up, they're holding him down. Um, and, and at times different cos just kind of start hitting him. It's like, it's not clear why. They'll just start, you know, they'll punch him, punch him in his rear end, punch him in the face. It's, it's awful. Um, and he's getting increasingly limp. They yank him up, he's got a bloodied nose, um, they're hauling him around very violently. They're kind of jerking him around. You can see that his lips are moving, he's talking. And then a guy just punches him in the face out of nowhere. So let's talk about that. You know, if he's, if he's being verbally abusive or saying something wrong, that's not a reason to punch a man who's handcuffed and is like, you know what I mean? Like, whatever provocations that are being made verbally don't matter in this Situation. I mean, like, like, I, I. I feel like I shouldn't even have to say that, but, like, like, it's like I don't. Like, in a certain point, like, it doesn't matter what the audio is or what he's saying. He could be saying, I'm gonna kill you. That, that does not mean a professional correctional officer should have the right to punch you for, for mouthing off or whatever the heck you're saying. That's just, you know, that. I don't know. It's probably just such a stupid, banal point. I just. I don't know. It's just like people are talking about, like, well, you know, what was said or what, you know, what, what this or that. It's like it almost. I mean, is it crazy to say it doesn't matter?

[Anya Cain]

No.

[Kevin Greenlee]

There'S. There's a. Kind of a couple different angles, and I'll go over some of the, the details you have. You know, see one of them putting on gloves. He's talking. His head is kind of lolling around. He's being held upright. At one point, this is very disturbing. One of the COs grabs him by the collar, like, hauls him up off of this table. They drag him over to a corner. He's sagging against what looks like a wall, and they're kind of holding him up against there. And then the next cut, he's stripped down to his underwear on the table again, you have another, you have another video, another, I think another correctional officer. He, you know, you see him again, there's a huge crowd. So some of the shots are like. Some of the, like, moments are almost blocked because there's people around him, around Brooks. You see him slide in the chair, in the kind of table, chair in the center, maybe a little deliberately, but, like, it's like, it's like, okay, but like, instead of just putting him back on, one of them hits him. They seem to be hitting him with a shoe, maybe his shoe that came off. That's my interpretation. Um, one at one point starts, like, kind of pushes. One of the COs pushes his foot into Brooks's stomach to kind of like, push him back up on the bed. They hold him down again. Um, and again. Some of these are the same incident. Incident, just from different angles. Uh, and, you know, one of them, at one point, you see they're holding his neck and head and wiping his mouth, which is bleeding, with either a cloth or a paper towel. And then they punch him in the face. And one grabs him by the neck and moves him around. Like, I mean, I don't know, like that's, that's something like, I feel like every kid is told like, don't grab people by the neck. That's dangerous. Right, right. So to see people who are presumably have some training in how to handle people who may not be compliant, grabbing someone by the neck that much and just kind of holding them, you know, hauling them around. Brooks is kind of a very thin man, so it's like they're just kind of like, he's like very limp, almost like a rag doll. It's like, it's awful. It's, it's just. Be warned, if you watch this video, it's incredibly disturbing because you're watching a man be. I mean, you're watching a beating, you're watching a man who's about to die. And yeah, that's kind of, you know, and, and, you know, caveat here. Obviously we, we don't know what kind of incident preceded this, but I would argue that it doesn't matter. By the time we see this, Brooks is handcuffed. He's really not offering much, if any, physical resistance. And whatever happened beforehand, that doesn't give anyone a right to asphyxiate him to death or beat him. You know, there's, there's a way of dealing with people who are non compliant in prison, if that's even what happened. So even though I do want to note, we don't know everything that happened and I'm certainly, you know, I'm, I'm knowledge, I acknowledge that. I just, I feel like it's hard to believe that the training that would go into being a correctional officer would be indicating that a lot of this stuff would be okay or safe to use on an inmate who is handcuffed, unarmed, and really not physically resisting. So what's happened is that New York Governor Kathy Hochul fired 13 officers and one nurse involved in this incident. Again, it's a big group of people that makes it more disturbing. And even this, this surprised me. So the New York State Correctional Officers and Police Benevolent association came out and said that the video was, quote, a disgrace to their profession. So you have the union and they noted that they are legally obligated to defend members of their union, but they are distancing themselves from the action shown in the video. It kind of indicated that it was very callous and did not show much regard for suffering. So the fact that the unions kind of.

[Anya Cain]

Yeah, that's telling.

[Kevin Greenlee]

That is very telling. Attorney General in New York, Letitia James. She has recused herself. But her office must represent state employees in this legal action. And Onondaga County District Attorney William J. Fitzpatrick has stepped in as sort of the special counsel. There's been calls for criminal charges against all or some of them of these, of these officers and, and the nurse. I, I don't know what's going to happen, but I just wanted to share what I saw in this video and just, you know, it's, it's certainly disturbing and it raises some questions because obviously, you know, people who are incarcerated are not sent there to be beaten to death. They're sent there to serve their terms. It's, you know, it, it shouldn't, this shouldn't have happened, you know, to Mr. Brooks. And it's, it's horrible. This is a mini meditation guided by Bombus. Repeat after me. I'm comfy. I'm cozy. Cozy. I have zero blisters on my toes. Blisters. And that's because I wear Bombus the softest socks, underwear and T shirts that give back. One purchased equals one donated. Now go to bombus.com wondery and use code wondery for 20% off your first purchase. That's B O-M-B-S.com wondery and use code wondery at checkout.

[Anya Cain]

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[Kevin Greenlee]

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[Anya Cain]

I completely agree. Should we move on to One more case out of New York.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Yeah. Two upstate New York cases today.

[Anya Cain]

Yes. This is a case. The one I'm doing is from KSL.com and this is a case that I think should make everybody feel better about themselves, because you're about to find out that you are smarter than and know more about the law than a judge.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Whoa. Salty.

[Anya Cain]

So this judge in upstate New York, he's actually, I guess, a justice in the town of Petersburg, which, My understanding, is a small town not far from Albany. You ever been there?

[Kevin Greenlee]

Have I ever been to Albany or Petersburg? Not to Petersburg. I've been to Albany because I grew up in New York, and we had to go to Albany on a field trip, and, you know. Yeah, that's, I guess, less said about that the better.

[Anya Cain]

So this judge, his name is Richard T. Snyder, and what happens is he gets called to jury duty, and that's when his problems begin, because he decides, well, I want to get out of jury duty. And maybe a lot of people have that impulse. Maybe sometimes you have good reasons to get out of jury duty. Maybe sometimes you don't. But it's very. It's a very important thing to serve on a jury. It's what makes our justice system run.

[Kevin Greenlee]

You would think a justice would know that.

[Anya Cain]

Yes. You would think a member of the legal profession, a judge, would realize, you know, by golly, juries are important. They help me run my court. Maybe I should be on a jury unless I have a really good reason. Well, as it turns out, he thought he did have a good reason, and his reason was that he would be biased against anybody who's brought in as a defendant. Because he says, quote, I know that everybody that comes in front of me, I know they are guilty, or they would not be in front of me.

[Kevin Greenlee]

No, no.

[Anya Cain]

So he is saying there, if you are charged with a crime, you're obviously guilty. And do you want to talk about the presumption of innocence, Anya, and why that's important?

[Kevin Greenlee]

Well, in our legal system, the presumption of innocence is very important. We don't. We don't just assume. We're not supposed to just assume that someone is arrested and therefore they're guilty. We're supposed to assume that the burden lies upon the state to prove that they're guilty. So you come in innocent. When you're sitting there and you've not been convicted, you're constitutionally innocent. You. You get the benefit of the doubt when the jury is deliberating. If there's two different explanations for something that are both Reasonable. And one makes you guilty and one makes you innocent. You're supposed to opt for the innocent one because of that burden. The burden lies on the state. So it's, it's a good system because it means that you're not just going to be like, you don't, I don't even know. Like, it, it makes it less totalitarian and horrible.

[Anya Cain]

It's a great system because if you are found guilty, then the government has the right to take away your liberty and in some cases, your life. That shouldn't be an easy thing to have happen.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Yeah. You shouldn't have to go in and be like, no, no, no, guys, please don't. Like, you know, like, like it should be on the state to say, here is our case against you. Like, we've reached that point where we can all be firmly convinced that you are guilty beyond a reasonable doubt.

[Anya Cain]

And this also makes it so this, this system, this presumption of innocent makes it so the prosecutors are not going to file charges against someone unless they have enough evidence in their mind to really prove the charge against that high standard.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Which is good.

[Anya Cain]

I know, because, yeah, if it's easy to conv. Convict people, then you could just haul in anybody and convict them. So it's very good to have a high standard of proof before someone is found guilty. And it's also very important for a judge to recognize this. And I also found it odd he thinks, well, no, I'm too biased to serve as a juror, but I can be a judge.

[Kevin Greenlee]

No, no, no, you can't.

[Anya Cain]

So, yes. So he's not going to be a judge anymore.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Yay. Good. That's not the right calling for him. You know, I, I also, it makes me a little concerned about the cases he oversaw, frankly. You know, that's, that's really a bad attitude. And I'm sure there's a lot of defense attorneys who are sitting here listening to this that are like, no, I definitely have seen judges like that, but they're just more low key about it, which I don't know every judge. No, judges, like, you can have really good judges who. Great. Are great and take it really seriously. You can have terrible judges. You should never have been on the bench. Um, I think more judges are probably on, on the decent side. I, I would, I would imagine. But here, here's the thing. One thing that kind of weirds me out is this guy wasn't even a lawyer.

[Anya Cain]

Not a lawyer. He was elected as a judge or elected as a justice, and he's agreed to never Serve as a judge.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Again, I have a question. What's with the non lawyer judge? Like people might be like, wait, what? You can do that? You can just be a judge, justice or judge or whatever.

[Anya Cain]

I, I guess in New York there is that option.

[Kevin Greenlee]

We do just go, just wing it.

[Anya Cain]

I, I know, for instance, it's, it's not comparable, but I know in Indiana anybody can be a coroner.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Yeah.

[Anya Cain]

If you run for coroner and you get enough votes, you're a coroner even if you have no medical experience. Maybe it's something similar for like a justice of the peace or what have you in upstate New York.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Yeah, it's, you know, I get, I mean it's, it's, there's less of a population up there, it's less population density. So there may be kind of an element of like, we don't have a lot of lawyers, what are we going to do? But at the same time, you would hope that someone, even if that's the system, like, let's not even comment on whether that's a good idea or not. You want someone to be open minded and to understand and respect how the legal system is supposed to work and not just come into it being like, well, you're in here. So.

[Anya Cain]

The administrator of the New York State Commission on Judicial Conduct, whose name I'm not going to try to say, he said, there is no place on the bench for someone who so deeply misunderstands the role of a judge in the administration of justice. It is bad enough that a judge would seek to avoid such a fundamental civic responsibility as jury service. It is astounding that the judge would claim an inability to be impartial and to declare under oath the accused must be guilty or they would not be in court. Do you want to try, say that gentleman's name for me.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Robert H. Timbeckjian.

[Anya Cain]

Thank you.

[Kevin Greenlee]

You're welcome. I think you should at least try.

[Anya Cain]

You know, Robert H. Timbechian. She had.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Yeah, but I mean, he's right and it's, it's concerning and I kind of would be again, a little bit curious about what else went down in this guy's court. You know, if there, I mean, I feel like stuff like that could almost open it up where, like if he saw, you know, oversaw some cases, then people might be like, well, why don't.

[Anya Cain]

We give a quick update on the book and then I apparently owe everybody a heartfelt apology and then we can talk about shirts.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Hang your head in shame. So we are writing a book called the Shadow of the Bridge.

[Anya Cain]

The Rough draft. We finished.

[Kevin Greenlee]

We finished a rough draft, and it's pretty rough. No, but it'll be better. We'll make it better, I promise. It's been wild writing that, and you.

[Anya Cain]

Can expect such articulate insights as that in the book. It's been wild.

[Kevin Greenlee]

It's all over that. It's about the Delphi case. It's about the investigation into the Delphi murders.

[Anya Cain]

We have editors, so thank God.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Yeah, don't worry. Don't worry, guys. We, unlike this show where we're the editors, we actually have professional editors in this. In this capacity. And we're really. We are, you know, we're honored to tell this story. I think it's a really important story. I think it's a story that people need to hear. And I think a book is a great way to get into a true crime case because it really lets you comprehensively discuss everything at a level of depth and detail that's not always in every medium. Like, you know, I feel like you can get a lot of richness out of a book that you don't with, like a documentary. I mean, you certainly get a lot of richness out of this podcast. I'm not going to knock us, but it's just in a different format, and I think it'll be. I think it'll have some things that maybe people are like, whoa, I didn't know that before. So I think it's going to be really good. So I'm excited for it. I'm.

[Anya Cain]

Well, I know it's going to be.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Good and we'd love for you to read it and if you'd like, it would really help us out if you did pre order it and tell your friends to pre order it. And we've got links in our show notes to help you pre order it from a couple of different places, depending on which one you prefer. And if you could just spread the word, like, if you have friends who are into true crime and they like to read books or anything like that, just tell them, hey, get this book. And then hopefully they do.

[Anya Cain]

You've had, like, a year of practice with the T shirt ads, so you're going to be able to do ads for the book flawlessly.

[Kevin Greenlee]

See, I always do the book ads, so you should do the next one. But no, but I can't let you do it because it'll just make it goofy.

[Anya Cain]

I'm very serious, and I can deal with things with the proper level of seriousness and with the gravity they deserve.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Everyone's listening is shaking their heads.

[Anya Cain]

Well, no, no. I'm going to deal now with a very grave topic, because I owe an apology. So we did an episode on the prosecution's response to the defense's motion to correct errors in the Delphi case. And so, for some reason not clear to me now, in the middle of that episode, there were a couple of points where I decided it would be appropriate to talk about Taylor Swift's favorite candy. Do you remember this?

[Kevin Greenlee]

Yeah, here's what I remember. I remember it was an episode where you were yelling. You swore at one point, and you were talking about Taylor Allison Swift instead of me. And I was like, did we just like Freaky Friday? Our podcast rolls. Like, I feel like that was my job. But anyways, go ahead.

[Anya Cain]

So her favorite candy is called Squashies, and there was a description of it that I read. It's, like, very sugary, very sweet, has texture like circus peanuts. I thought, oh, by God, this is for me. This is what I've been waiting for my entire life. I gotta get some of these squashies that taste sweet and have this texture. And I go online and I see squashies flavored like rhubarb and custard. I go, ah. And I throw my phone across the room, and then I go and I record the episode. And so, on our Facebook group, one of our valued members, Lydia, said, Kevin Greenlee, Taylor Alison Swift does not like the rhubarb flavor. She likes the raspberry vanilla. You must issue a correction. Also, you need to eat the real flavor live on Patreon. So I apologize. Just seeing the word rhubarb terrified me. It gave me a bad vibe, and so I didn't read further.

[Kevin Greenlee]

He, like, blacked out after seeing the word rhubarb, which is. I know you're thinking, what? But, like, that's something he does about vegetables or. Or anything. Like, any food that you deem as not what you want, you just throw out the whole dish. And now you've alienated Swift Nation as a result of that by lying about Taylor Swift's favorite candy.

[Anya Cain]

I wasn't lying. I think it's understandable if I see the word rhubarb and custard and candy in the same sentence to think, no, I'm done reading this. Like, I don't need this in my life. I think that that's a reasonable reaction. But Lydia asked for a clarification. And when Lydia says, jump, I say, how high?

[Kevin Greenlee]

Yeah, we got it. We can't have that on the record of this rhubarb. That's rhubarb route.

[Anya Cain]

So now Anya is going to talk about the shirts. But I'll say this. If, should I say if we sell 20 shirts this week, I'll eat the rhubarb candy on Patreon.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Wow. Doing little stunts now.

[Anya Cain]

Yeah. So now it's up to you because you have to do a spellbinding ad to sell 20 shirts in a week.

[Kevin Greenlee]

So I can torture you with this rhubarb that you don't like.

[Anya Cain]

So some people who have had to say, does even taste like rhubarb. So maybe it's fine.

[Kevin Greenlee]

I feel like I've had a rhubarb pie before that I liked. But I know you're very particular. Yes, I know I'm not going to make you. Well, I mean, now you've agreed to it. So I'll make you eat rhubarb if.

[Anya Cain]

If we sell 50 shirts, at least 20.

[Kevin Greenlee]

The goal posts are already moving swiftly. No pun intended.

[Anya Cain]

So do the ad. And if we sell 75 shirts, I'll do this live on Patreon.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Guys, don't you want to see Kevin freak out and eat some rhubarb stuff? I mean, isn't that an advertisement enough? Do I even have, do I have to guild this lily for you? Or can we all agree that that would be extremely funny and it would give a lot of enjoyment to a lot of people, maybe make some people's day. And Kevin would be very unhappy, but you know, he'll get over it. And probably one time I gave him a cannoli and he acted like I tried to kill him because he didn't like it. So I mean, he's a very, he's, he's got his strong opinions about food and you know, it can be fun to have some fun with that. And frankly, I need a laugh right now because it's been rough recently.

[Anya Cain]

It would make me feel good that a hundred more people are walking around wearing this beautiful garment and getting all the positive attention that comes with it. And so just thinking of that would be gratifying enough.

[Kevin Greenlee]

That's a way that. Yeah, so it's a way to get positive attention to wear the murder sheet T shirt. People say, what's that? And you can have a really life changing conversation with them about our show and that, that benefits everyone. Nice icebreaker. Beautiful colors. They might admire just the design and it's very sturdy shirt. It's a very functional shirt. It's a shirt that I love and it's, it's just fun and it makes you part of the murder sheet people.

[Anya Cain]

Do you think Abraham Lincoln would wear one of these shirts if he was alive today?

[Kevin Greenlee]

You know, he'd be listening. He was a lawyer. He was crazy. He was doing stuff. He was. He was, like, just making stuff up about an almanac and a murder trial. Remember that one? Like, oh, guys, hey. The almanac said that the moon wasn't out, and everyone was like, okay, and what? Didn't that turn out not to be true?

[Anya Cain]

So you're now in the midst. In the midst of your ad for the T shirts. You're calling Abraham Lincoln shady.

[Kevin Greenlee]

I love him. I. He's. He's the best. Wasn't there one where he was like, he had a murder trial and then, like, he won because he's like, guys, the guy just moved out of town. Like, he wasn't dead. There was no murder. Like, he was. He was. He was awesome. He was like. Like, I love. Back then, Circuit court meant you'd literally, like, ride around from place to place, going, going and doing these trials. And I think he. He's my favorite president for sure. So I think he would totally, totally be a murder sheet person if I had to guess. I wonder what presents wouldn't be. Probably all the bad ones. But anyways, let's go to you. And you can say something else now. You look like you want to say something.

[Anya Cain]

Do you think, like, Millard Fillmore?

[Kevin Greenlee]

I don't know much. I don't know much about Millard Fillmore. All the. All the. Here's what I can say to listeners. All the presidents that you don't like would not be murder sheep people, but all the presidents you do like totally would. That's how I'm being apolitical and kind of down the middle right now. Leave it up to their imagination.

[Anya Cain]

Well, I wonder now, everybody's always interested in speculative histories and what ifs. No, what if.

[Kevin Greenlee]

No, no, I don't. What is. What is. I'm so nervous.

[Anya Cain]

What if when William Henry Harrison was giving his inaugular dress, he had been wearing, like, a murder Sheep people T shirt under his garments?

[Kevin Greenlee]

Okay.

[Anya Cain]

Maybe he wouldn't have gotten sick. Maybe he would have lived.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Okay.

[Anya Cain]

And he died, like, 31 days into his administration.

[Kevin Greenlee]

That's actually really. Apartment thank you.

[Anya Cain]

And you were like, I didn't know.

[Kevin Greenlee]

What you were going to do. I was. I thought things were gonna get controversial. William, Harriet, Henry Harris. He was of course, old Tippecanoe. Right? Used Tippecanoe, which, of course is in Indiana. So he actually would have been. He might Have. You know, a lot of our listeners are in Indiana, so he might have been in the mix there. So I guess we're old timey people in that situation, but somehow podcasts exist.

[Anya Cain]

And then I should also mention that we're talking about, you know, some of the celebrated men of the past who could have worn these T shirts. What about the stylish Dolly Madison? I could see her walking around in a Murder sheet T shirt.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Do you think she would have ditched the portrait of George Washington when the British were burning the White House and just grabbed her murder sheet merch instead? And then a lot of history would have been lost as a result of our actions.

[Anya Cain]

What if, hear me out, she's in the White House, the British are coming. What if she had like one of those T shirt guns and just fired out murder sheet T shirts at the British soldiers? They'd say, wait a minute, what are we doing?

[Kevin Greenlee]

What are we doing?

[Anya Cain]

We could be listening to a podcast.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Yeah, let's hop in our ships, head back. We don't even have to hit New Orleans. We can just get out of here. Tune into some podcasts on the way back. It's a great thing for your commute. I love that. World peace.

[Anya Cain]

Good.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Everyone's happy. What an insane. What an insane non sequitur. We did.

[Anya Cain]

Well, remember, I don't want people to buy shirts this week, so that's why I've taken it down this road. I haven't even told people where they can get them. And I don't think we're going to sell 500 shirts this week, so I have nothing to worry about.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Murdersheetshop.com get on it, people.

[Anya Cain]

Here's the button.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Let's make this happen.

[Anya Cain]

Thanks so much for listening to the Murder Sheet. If you have a tip concerning one of the cases we cover, please email [e-mail] if you have actionable information about an unsolved crime, please report it to the appropriate authorities.

[Kevin Greenlee]

If you're interested in joining our Patreon, that's available at www.patreon.com/murder sheet. If you want to tip us a bit of money for records requests, you can do so at www.buymeacoffee.com murdersheet. We very much appreciate any support.

[Anya Cain]

Special thanks to Kevin Tyler Greenlee, who composed the music for the Murder sheet and who you can find on the [e-mail] if you're looking to talk with.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Other listeners about a case we've covered, you can join the Murder Sheet discussion Group on Facebook. We mostly focus our time on research and reporting, so we're not on social media much. We do try to check our email account, but we ask for patience as we often receive a lot of messages. Thanks again for listening.

[Anya Cain]

Can we talk a little bit before we go about quints, a great new sponsor for us, I think in one of the ads that we've already done for them, we talked about the compliments I'm getting on my jacket. I know you're a very modest woman, but can we talk about the compliments you're getting on the quince products you wear?

[Kevin Greenlee]

Yeah, I've got two of their Mongolian cashmere sweaters. They're a brand that just does this sort of luxurious products, but without the crazy costs, really. Well, they are. They give you Italian leather handbags. They do, like European linen sheets. You have a really cool suede jacket. And I really like the way I look in my sweaters. I like the way you look in your bomber jacket. It looks super cool.

[Anya Cain]

You've gotten a lot of compliments when you go out wearing these sweaters.

[Kevin Greenlee]

I think I have, yeah.

[Anya Cain]

And deservedly so.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Also, like, I'm one of those people. My skin is very, like, you know, like, I kind of sensitive. So when it comes to wearing sweaters, like, you know, sometimes it's something too scratchy. Like, it really bothers me. These are so soft. They're just like very delicate and soft. And make. They're wearing them is lovely because they're super comfortable. You're not. You're not. It's not one of those things where you're like, you buy it and it looks great, but it doesn't feel that great. They look great. They feel great. Yeah. I really love them. And you got, you know, your cool jacket. I mean, that's a little bit of a. You're the guy who, like, wears the same thing all the time. So this was a bit of a. A gamble for you, a bit of a risk. You got something a bit different.

[Anya Cain]

I do wash my clothes.

[Kevin Greenlee]

I know you wash your clothes, but I mean, you're filthy.

[Anya Cain]

You made me sound awful, so. No, I wash my clothes.

[Kevin Greenlee]

But you don't really.

[Anya Cain]

I launder them.

[Kevin Greenlee]

You don't really experiment with fashion that much is what I'm saying. So this is a little bit out of the norm for you, but I think you really like it and it looks good.

[Anya Cain]

Thank you. Great products, incredible prices.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Quincy.

[Anya Cain]

Com.

[Kevin Greenlee]

There you go. So you can go to Quince.com/m sheet and right now they're offering 365 day returns plus free shipping on your order. So it's Quince.com msheet that's Q U I N C E.com M S H.

[Anya Cain]

E-E-T before we wrap up this episode, can we take just a moment to say a few more words about our great new sponsor, Acorns?

[Kevin Greenlee]

Yeah. Thanks so much to Acorns. Remember, when you support our sponsors, you're supporting us and our sponsors make it possible for us to do this job. So we really appreciate them.

[Anya Cain]

We love our sponsors.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Absolutely. Acorns is a terrific investing app. It's the perfect thing for somebody who wants to get started with their personal finance journey.

[Anya Cain]

That can seem daunting.

[Kevin Greenlee]

It. It is daunting. I. I'm so not financially minded. For me, it's always really hard to get started with something like this where you're like, what am I doing? But Acorns sort of takes the guesswork out of that. It gets you started and it will essentially help you take control of your financial future. You can get set up pretty quickly and it allows you to start automatically. Saving and investing that money can help you, your kids, if you have a family, your retirement. And you don't need to be rich, you don't need to be an expert to do this. It's very simple. And you can start with only $5 or whatever change you have. It's not like you need to put in some massive payment. So it is a, it's, it's a great fit for people who are starting out, but they want to take the next step and improve themselves financially and make their money work for them more. So if you're Interested, head to acorns.commsheet or download the Acorns app to start saving and investing for your future today. Paid non client endorsement compensation provides incentive to positively promote Acorns Tier 1 compensation provided investing involves risk. Acorns Advisors LLC and SEC registered investment advisor. View important [e-mail] before we go, we.

[Anya Cain]

Just wanted to say another few words about Viya. This is really a wonderful product. I think it's really helped both of us get a lot better rest.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Via is pretty much, I guess you'd say, the only lifestyle hemp brand out there. So what does that mean? It means that they're all about crafting different products to elicit different moods. Kevin and I really like their non THC CBD products. Specifically Zen really helps me fall asleep some. Zen can really just kind of help me get more into that state where I can relax and fall asleep pretty easily. And they're just, they've been such a wonderful support to us. They're a longtime sponsor. We really love working with them and they really make the show possible. I'm going to say this like, you may not realize this, but when you support our sponsors, you're supporting us, and it kind of makes us impossible for us to do the show. So if you or one of your loved ones is interested in trying some of this stuff, you're going to get a great deal. It's very high, high quality, high value.

[Anya Cain]

Anya, if I wanted to get this discount you speak of, what do I do?

[Kevin Greenlee]

Okay, if you're 21 and older, head to viahemp.com and use the code msheet to receive 15% off. And if you're new to via, get a free gift of your choice. That's v I I a hemp.com and use code m sheet at checkout, spell the code M S H E E T. And after you purchase, they're going to ask you, hey, where did you hear about us? Say the murder sheet. Because then it lets them know that our ads are effective and it really helps us out.