Dapper Rogues and Jazz Age Romps: A Conversation with Author Dean Jobb on Jewel Thief Arthur Barry

Summary

Murder Sheet Podcast Summary

Episode Title: Dapper Rogues and Jazz Age Romps: A Conversation with Author Dean Jobe on Jewel Thief Arthur Barry
Release Date: January 1, 2025
Hosts: Áine Cain (Journalist) and Kevin Greenlee (Attorney)
Guest: Dean Jobe (Author)

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Introduction to Dean Jobe and His Work

In this episode of Murder Sheet, hosts Áine Cain and Kevin Greenlee engage in a comprehensive conversation with Dean Jobe, a seasoned journalist and author renowned for his in-depth true crime books. The focus of their discussion centers on Jobe's latest work, A Gentleman and a Thief: The Daring Jewel Heists of a Jazz Age Rogue, which delves into the life and crimes of Arthur Barry, a charismatic jewel thief from the 1920s.

Notable Quote:

"True crime has always been an interest, but with my research into old cases, it has ballooned over the years."
— Dean Jobe [05:28]

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Dean Jobe’s Journey into True Crime Writing

Dean Jobe shares his transition from a court reporter in Halifax, Nova Scotia, to an author specializing in historical true crime. His background in history and his journalistic experience covering contemporary trials laid the foundation for his exploration of older, less-known cases.

Key Points:

• Early Career: Worked as a journalist covering court cases, sparking his interest in historical crimes.
• Research Focus: Investigates crimes from 100 to 150 years ago, blending history with true crime storytelling.
• Storytelling Approach: Emphasizes accurate historical context without overshadowing the crime's drama.

Notable Quote:

"Crime stories dominated the media long before the current true crime wave, but now it's reaching new heights."
— Dean Jobe [06:31]

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Arthur Barry: The Jazz Age Jewel Thief

The conversation delves into Arthur Barry’s life, painting him as the epitome of a "dapper rogue" during the Jazz Age. Barry's methodical approach to heists, his charm, and his ability to blend into the elite society of New York made him a fascinating subject for Jobe's book.

Key Points:

• Modus Operandi: Scoped wealthy estates in Westchester County and Nassau County, infiltrating homes during lavish parties to steal jewelry.
• Charismatic Persona: Adopted the guise of a posh socialite, memorizing the social register to identify targets and blend seamlessly into high society.
• Impact of the Great Gatsby Era: Barry's lifestyle mirrored the opulent and reckless spirit of the 1920s, culminating in his downfall coinciding with the 1929 stock market crash.

Notable Quotes:

"Barry’s rise and fall perfectly mirrors the Jazz Age, a time of glitter and easy money leading to ultimate reckoning."
— Dean Jobe [15:05]

"He was a working-class Irish kid who could mimic a Harvard accent and was always impeccably dressed."
— Dean Jobe [20:31]

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The Allure of the Gentleman Thief

Hosts and Jobe explore why society remains fascinated with non-violent, charming criminals like Barry. The romanticized image of the suave jewel thief who targets the wealthy without causing physical harm strikes a chord, making such figures almost anti-heroes in popular culture.

Key Points:

• Cultural Fascination: Similar to characters like Cary Grant’s in To Catch a Thief, Barry embodies the glamorous rogue archetype.
• Moral Ambiguity: While Barry's crimes are unethical, his non-violent methods and personal charm evoke a begrudging respect.
• Public Perception: Victims often praise his gentlemanly approach, complicating the moral landscape surrounding his actions.

Notable Quotes:

"There’s something very glamorous about the sort of jewel thieves and art thieves that captivates the public imagination."
— Dean Jobe [24:46]

"Barry never fired a gun at anyone he robbed. His MO was non-violent, making him comparable to earlier non-violent criminals like Butch Cassidy."
— Dean Jobe [28:41]

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The Pursuit and Downfall of Arthur Barry

The discussion highlights the relentless hunt by detectives, particularly Harold King, leading to Barry's eventual capture. Jobe details the cat-and-mouse game between Barry and law enforcement, underscoring the intricate methods used to track him down.

Key Points:

• Detective Harold King: Chief of detectives in Nassau County, determined to capture Barry, organizing armed patrols to apprehend him.
• Private Detectives: Wealthy victims hired private eyes like Noel Scaffold (“the Great Retriever”) to recover stolen jewels, adding layers to the investigation.
• Capture and Escapes: Barry's arrest in 1927, subsequent prison breakout in 1929, and final capture after a three-year fugitive period.

Notable Quotes:

"Barry is the embodiment of Cary Grant’s character in To Catch a Thief, blending charm with criminal intent."
— Dean Jobe [19:49]

"Private detectives like Noel Scaffold became instrumental in unmasking Barry, demonstrating the intersection of private and public efforts in criminal investigations."
— Dean Jobe [34:30]

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Murder Accusations and Legal Maneuvers

While primarily a jewel thief, Arthur Barry faced accusations of murder early in his career. Jobe clarifies the circumstances, emphasizing Barry’s non-violent nature despite being involved in a deadly altercation.

Key Points:

• 1922 Dance Hall Incident: Barry and a friend James Monahan were involved in a scuffle where Monahan shot a man. Barry was charged but ultimately convicted of assault, not murder, reflecting the tenuous evidence against him.
• Legal Strategy: Barry chose to protect his accomplice by not betraying Monahan, resulting in lenient sentencing and complicating further partnerships.

Notable Quotes:

"There was no evidence Barry physically abused anyone during his heists, and he never fired his gun at a victim."
— Dean Jobe [28:41]

"Barry was charged with murder but only served five months after pleading guilty to assault, highlighting the weak case against him."
— Dean Jobe [44:02]

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Connection to the Lindbergh Kidnapping

An intriguing segment reveals how Arthur Barry was erroneously linked to the infamous Lindbergh kidnapping, showcasing media sensationalism and investigative lapses of the time.

Key Points:

• Media Influence: Tabloid press drew tenuous parallels between Barry’s methods and the Lindbergh case, leading to unfounded suspicions.
• Exoneration: Despite media claims, evidence cleared Barry of involvement in the kidnapping, underscoring the challenges of accurate reporting in high-profile cases.

Notable Quote:

"Barry was ultimately exonerated from the Lindbergh case, but the media's premature connections tarnished his reputation."
— Dean Jobe [38:14]

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Discussion on Dr. Thomas Neill Cream

Expanding beyond Arthur Barry, Dean Jobe touches upon his other work, Empire of Deception, which profiles Dr. Thomas Neill Cream, a Victorian-era serial killer. He explains his motivations to explore how societal and forensic limitations allowed Cream to evade justice.

Key Points:

• Victorian Society: Cream exploited the era's socioeconomic and medical dynamics to commit murders undetected.
• Forensic Limitations: Rudimentary detection methods and societal prejudices enabled Cream’s spree across multiple countries.
• Manhunt Narrative: Similar to Barry, Cream's story emphasizes the evolution of criminal investigations and the impact of societal context.

Notable Quote:

"I wanted to understand how Cream could get away with his murders for so long, exploring the state of detection and societal factors of Victorian times."
— Dean Jobe [50:23]

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Author’s Perspective and Conclusion

Dean Jobe reflects on Arthur Barry’s complex character, questioning whether he possessed a “heart of gold” or if such notions were mere facades masking his criminality. Jobe underscores the importance of historical context in understanding criminal behavior and societal impacts.

Key Points:

• Anti-Hero Analysis: Barry is portrayed as an anti-hero, eliciting both condemnation for his crimes and empathy for his personal struggles.
• Redemption and Legacy: Post-incarceration, Barry reintegrated into society, regaining respect and distancing himself from his past, illustrating themes of redemption.
• Historical Impact: Barry’s story offers insights into the Jazz Age's cultural and economic dynamics, reflecting broader societal issues of the time.

Notable Quotes:

"Barry commits his crimes for personal gain, yet his gentlemanly demeanor allows society to view him with a mix of admiration and disdain."
— Dean Jobe [45:46]

"Understanding Barry requires looking beyond his crimes to the societal and historical forces that shaped his actions."
— Dean Jobe [48:56]

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Final Thoughts

The episode closes with Dean Jobe emphasizing the importance of meticulous research and accurate storytelling in true crime writing. He highlights his commitment to honoring victims and providing a nuanced view of historical crimes.

Notable Quote:

"The creative part of non-fiction is not adding anything but transporting the reader to the moment using truthful, detailed accounts."
— Dean Jobe [56:55]

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Conclusion

This episode of Murder Sheet offers a riveting exploration of Arthur Barry’s life as a gentleman thief in the Jazz Age, enriched by Dean Jobe’s meticulous research and engaging storytelling. Listeners gain not only insight into Barry’s criminal exploits but also an understanding of the societal backdrop that enabled his actions. Additionally, the discussion on Dr. Thomas Neill Cream broadens the scope, illustrating Jobe’s expertise in unraveling complex historical crimes. For enthusiasts of true crime and historical mysteries, this episode provides both depth and engaging narratives that illuminate the darker corners of the past.

Transcript

[Anya Cain]

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[Kevin Greenlee]

Quince.com/msheet content warning this episode contains discussion of murder, including the murder of a child.

[Anya Cain]

Jewel thieves have shockingly great public relations. There's something our culture just loves about the idea of a dashing miscreant using his or her wits to abscond into the night with a millionaire's glittering trinkets. Perhaps that's not too surprising. The hypothetical scenario I just described is nonviolent. After all, no one gets killed. No one gets hurt. Somebody might get traumatized in the process. But then again, if the purloiner is a charming enough conversationalist, maybe not. Stealing a wealthy person's jewelry doesn't deprive the public of access to culturally important works like art heists often do. It's certainly not a victimless crime, but the victims are losing out on insured gems that they don't require to survive or thrive. As far as non Fiction and fictional crime stories go, that's perhaps the closest thing we have to good clean fun. I'm certainly not condoning thievery. Of course, I'm not proposing we should all fit ourselves in tuxedos and gowns that have safe breaking tools sewn into the seams. What I am saying is that it makes sense why we have collectively sort of decided that this kind of crime we can shrug at, especially in times of vast wealth disparity. But if you remove any of the prerequisites, make the victims everyday people, make the theft physically violent, then you have a different story.

[Kevin Greenlee]

In the Jazz Age, Arthur Barry was the living embodiment of of the dapper jewel thief. He attended fancy parties and made off with all kinds of expensive jewelry. He charmed his victims and the press he confounded and frustrated detectives and insurance investigators. Author Dean Jobe spent quite a lot of time researching Barry's rise and fall. He recently came out with the book A Gentleman and a the Daring Jewel Heists of a Jazz Age Rogue. It's a really good book about a fascinating figure out of a bygone era.

[Anya Cain]

In this episode, we'll interview Dean about Barry and his exploits. We'll also talk about one murder that Barry was accused of early on in his career and whether or not that was actually borne out by the evidence, as well as his connection to the infamous abduction and murder of 20 month old Charles Augustus Lindbergh Jr. Which largely stemmed out of the speculation of the tabloid press. Lastly, we talked to Dean about another one of his books about a chilling serial killer, Dr. Thomas Neill Cream. My name is Anya Cain. I'm a journalist.

[Kevin Greenlee]

And I'm Kevin Greenlee. I'm an attorney.

[Anya Cain]

And this is the Murder Sheet.

[Kevin Greenlee]

We're a true crime podcast focused on original reporting, interviews, and deep dives into murder cases. We're the Murder Sheet.

[Anya Cain]

And this is Dapper Rogues and Jazz Age Romps, A conversation with author Dean Jobe on jewel thief Arthur Barry.

[Dean Jobe]

All right, so tell us a little bit about your professional background, Dean. How did you get started writing nonfiction?

Well, I was a journalist for a long time on a daily newspaper in Halifax, Nova Scotia, the province in Canada where I live. Early on, I was sent to cover the courts, so I didn't have a background in law. My background was history. And all of my academic studies in university had been revolved around history. So the two kind of came together. I was covering and learning about contemporary trials, but that led to an interest in older cases. So I started rooting around in old Cases within my province of Nova Scotia and it ballooned from there.

So this is 35 plus years ago.

So I'd like to say that if true crime is a thing now, I at least got in on things early. But true crime, of course has always been interest as I, as I research old cases 100 years, 100, 150 years ago, I mean, crime stories dominated the media. So uh, it's, it's a wave that seems higher now, but it's always been with us.

Absolutely.

[Anya Cain]

And from, from what the book we're.

[Dean Jobe]

Going to talk about today, A Gentleman and a Thief, as well as the case of the murderous Dr. Cream and Empire of Deception, it seems like you've, as you said, you've had this interest in history and older crimes. And I'm just curious, when did that start? Have you always had that sort of interest in crime dating back to childhood or, or is that, is that something that you sort of got through your studies in history and.

No, it was really from, from working.

Covering the courts, covering trials, major cases as a journalist. But yes, academically it was my, my background in history.

So the two kind of came together and I, I sometimes, a lot of.

Times my books are, are shelved as biography or history.

And I, and I think rightly, as well as true crimes, I find true crime such a, a wonderful vehicle for.

Storytelling because the drama is baked in. You know, there's, there's crimes to be solved, mysteries often there's manhunts, there's the drama of, of a trial eventually and what will the, and the cliffhangers of what will the outcome be.

So it's, it's a good way to, to open a window on history. And I, and that's a window I.

Like to, to take a deep look through. I, I don't want the historical context to drown out the, the drama or the story or the crime.

But I think it's important to root.

A crime in its time and place. So I do a lot of what an historian does. I do find I'm drawn to crime and policing, detection, forensics and, and the law at other periods, which itself can be instructive. How was crime and punishment dealt with in the past? What's that tell us about today? How did people live in the past? There's no better way to understand what life was really like, I think, than a court case or a major crime.

Because everyone's sort of caught in a photo flash. They're caught doing whatever they're doing, good or bad. People have to talk about events they.

Have to confront things for the sake of justice being done that they wouldn't normally do.

So it can be very, very instructive.

Look at history.

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[Dean Jobe]

And a Thief the daring jewel heists of a Jazz Age rogue. How how did you decide to write this book, to cover this case, to sort of delve into this period?

Well, I, I love the Jazz Age in the twenties. And again I, I, I'm looking for stories. I'm looking for the context, the historical context, the time and place that inform and create the structure of the story.

But I'm also looking for stories that.

Are products of that time and place.

And the story of this jewel thief.

Arthur Barry, who I'd never heard of. I just stumbled across a reference to him doing a Google search and I thought what a great story.

But for a really good book, I think it needs to be more than a good story. It has to have legs, it has to have sort of multiple entry points. And in this case his story so.

Perfectly reflected the times.

So he's a high flying jewel thief.

He's hobnobbing with the elite of New York, going Crashing parties in a tux, passing himself off as some wealthy invited guest, when all he's really trying to do is sneak upstairs, case the upstairs, figure out where the jewels will be when he comes back later through. Through an open window and. And steals what he can. He's doing all this thievery, and he steals something. On the order of today, in today's terms, $60 million worth of jewelry over seven years in the 1920s, he's doing this. He's only getting about 10% from fences, so he's not getting all of that fabulous wealth. But what he gets, he tends to be blowing on, living a good life and mostly gambling.

And this was the times.

That's how he explained it later, when.

When he was asked about did he.

Have regrets and did he wish he'd saved some of that money he'd. He'd earned?

And he.

Because he always insisted he had none left. And I. And I think the book shows that's true.

But he. He just simply explained, look, those were.

The times, you know, why not live? Well, it was lived for today. The. The generation, that lost generation coming out of the Great war that had endured so much and. And Barry had served overseas and been wounded. That really drew me to his story.

The fact that his story would be.

Such a perfect vehicle for giving people a sense of what the Jazz Age was like, that time of glitter and easy money and. And, of course, the world's headed for an ultimate reckoning in 1929, when the stock market crashes and the good times end. And Barry's life as well crashes and burns about that time. So his rise and fall perfectly mirrors the times that really drew me to this.

Yeah. The book is imbued with this kind of great dramatic irony, because we all know the party's not gonna keep going, but certainly the people at the time did not think that. Before we get more into Barry, I'm curious, just for the listeners, can you describe more of the time and place of sort of Jazz Age New York?

[Anya Cain]

Loved.

[Dean Jobe]

I'm from Westchester county, so I love that that was one of his sort of hunting grounds. But he would hit Long Island. It sounds like Manhattan. Westchester, in his sort of hunt for these different jewels. And, you know, if you could tell us a little bit more in scene set, that would be great, because that kind of feels like it's one of the characters in the book is this time and place.

Well, Barry ends up in New York after the war. He returned in a late wave of veterans to find there were no jobs he'd Had a, a bit of a checkered pass as a juvenile delinquent. Had served some time in reformatory for, for a break in and decided that this, this would be how he'd make his living. He started as a sneak thief. He would time his forays into houses when people were either out or entertaining downstairs. And the upstairs would be sort of. He could quietly sneak in and grab whatever jewels he could. His preferred hunting grounds were Westchester county north of Manhattan, and also Nassau county on Long Island. And what drew him to these places was the fabulous wealth of some of the residents. There were fine estates, one of the. And also Greenwich, Connecticut, going across the Connecticut border. These were enclaves of fabulous wealth. And you only have to read the Great Gatsby, which I referenced numerous times because he's robbing at the time. Fitzgerald is conceiving and writing the Great Gatsby. And the Great Gatsby is set in the middle of what is actually Nassau county, which was, as you say, one of Barry's hunting grounds.

So in the course of seven years.

He systematically planned and executed robberies in Westchester county and Nassau. And what I found in going back and reconstructing the crimes he was accused of and suspected of and had confessed.

To, you could see a pattern. The authorities in Westchester county knew there.

Was this burglar sneaking into houses and.

There were vigilante groups set up. And when the heat was on, suddenly the robbery stopped.

And then they might come back a year later. What they didn't realize is it was Barry, when the heat was on, would go over to Nassau county and start there.

And then when the heat got, when it got too hot in Nassau County.

And at one point the police were so frustrated with the break ins to the estates of the wealthy on Long island that they actually were sending patrols of detectives and police officers armed with machine guns on the back roads of Nassau county looking for him. So when the heat was on there, he would go back.

And it was only in 1927, when.

He'S ultimately caught, that the police in these jurisdictions realized that all the while they'd been hunting the same person. And there was no evidence in any of the coverage, I say, any of the news coverage or any of the memoirs anything had been written about this. No sense that, that until that moment the light bulb had gone off and they'd realized, well, this is why there were similar burglaries at different times.

One thing that's really fascinating about Barry is that he was not just this prowler in the night coming in and sneaking around like he was getting to know the rich and famous of the New York set at the time. I mean some huge names, literally. The Prince of England, Edward is in the opening, but plenty of different kind of powerful people and hobnobbing with them. I mean it's really. We'll talk about this later. But it's truly something out of a movie. And I was wondering if you could, could speak about that, how he sort of would charm people and you know, often kind of insert himself into that scene.

Well, this is where Barry really is an earlier version of the character Cary Grant plays in To Catch a Thief. This suave, debonair. Not all his robberies involved party crashing. You know, he. Well let's, let's start there though.

One of his MOs was that he.

Would drive to an estate, park his car in an out of the way place, jump the fence in a tux, approach in the shrubbery until he could sort of join a group that was on a terrace or find his way into the house and then pass himself off.

But to do this, I mean he.

He was a, a workingclass Irish kid from Worcester, Massachusetts.

But he could put on the accent.

He said he, he could mimic a Harvard type accent so he would sound posh.

He would always be imp dressed. And he studied the rich and famous, as you said. He studied something called the social register, which was this, hundreds of pages, it was like a thick phone directory of.

The social climbers, the, the old money moneyed families in nouveau riche of New York and every city had one. And he claimed he'd memorized it, which is an incredible feat because it was so, I mean went from A to Z.

But he also read the social pages of the society pages of the New York papers and he called them his unwitting accomplices because that's where he learned.

Who was at their, their estate on Long island, who was in Palm beach for the winter. Now that was really valuable information for.

Barry because if people had gone to Palm beach, they'd taken their jewels with them.

He wanted to know when people were in their estates. And as well the society pages would often have pictures of, of socialites resplendent in their jewels and pearls, helping him identify targets.

He at various times used this ruse.

Of sneaking into parodies. And as you say in 1924, Edward the Prince of Wales, the future King Edward VIII, is on Long island for a, a holiday. Not really an official royal visit, but the great and good of Long island are competing to have parties and, and polo matches and fox hu and yachting excursions with the Prince, the biggest celebrity in the planet at the time. And Barry meets him at one of these parties where Barry is actually has been caught out. He was upstairs. He'd snuck upstairs, thought he'd go back out through a window, and instead had to descend to the party and suggests the.

To the Prince, who's itching to see Manhattan incognito, that he can be his tour guide.

And he was.

He took him to some speakeasies and nightclubs. And I'm reading this and it's in.

A memoir, and it's been.

It was covered at the time, but there's no doubt it happened. You could even see the break in the press coverage. There was a night the Prince disappeared. And later on, when he was being.

Interviewed about it, a Cracker Jack crime.

Reporter who'd actually covered the Prince's visit.

Actually checked her sources. And Barry didn't want to talk about it, but she made him talk about it because she basically had confirmed the story.

So it was a real testament to how good he was that he wasn't.

Just this skilled burglar.

He was a con man as well, who could. Who could make people think he was someone else.

In this case, some young rich man and good enough to fool the future King of England.

I love that part so much, where he tells the reporter essentially, like, I don't want to brag, like, I don't.

[Anya Cain]

Want to talk about it.

[Dean Jobe]

Right.

Oh, man, it's. It's really. I mean, I really hope your book gets adapted by somebody, because I feel like this would be such a good movie. There's just so many of these. It really feels. You mentioned Cary Grant. I. We watched kind of randomly a while back, Jewel Robbery with William Powell.

Right. Yeah.

There really is this. This trope of this kind of roguish jewel seat. There's something very glamorous about the sort of jewel thieves and art thieves. And I'm just curious, like, why do you think that is? Why. Why do we kind of have this. Why are we so charmed by people pulling off these. These types of heists against the wealthy?

Well, to pick up on what you said, I mean, I think a lot.

Of listeners will have seen or heard of Lupin, the Netflix series, a huge hit about contemporary French jewel thief, but based on the. The turn of the 19th century stories by Maurice LeBlanc, who wrote about this sort of devilish jewel thief, but with.

A heart of gold, you know, ultimately trying to do the right thing. And he was a contemporary of a.

Writer Named Horning, who was the brother in law of Arthur Conan Doyle, who created a, a character called AJ Raffles.

And Raffles at the time.

So this is in the early 1900s, before Barry, just before Barry comes along.

Raffles was synonymous with a sort of.

Upscale, sophisticated, debonair jewel thief. And in fact, before Barry was identified, a lot of his crimes were, you know, Raffles strikes again. I mean, newspaper readers of the twenties knew exactly who they were referring to. Then, of course, after he was caught, he, he was known as an American Raffles.

So there'd been this long sort of fascination, I think, but I think it grows out of another sort of guilty.

Pleasure that some of us could maybe.

Take is to seeing the great and good, the wealthy, cut down to size a little bit. I mean, Barry's not.

These aren't victimless crimes Barry's committing.

I mean, he's breaking into people's houses.

He goes from sneak thief to actually confronting people in their bedrooms.

Because he's found, after his crimes, he.

Sees in the newspapers all the jewelry.

He didn't get because it's all itemized.

It was in a safe or hidden somewhere that he realizes if he can get people to cooperate.

But he, he puts on this gentlemanly Persona. You know, he says, calm down, I'm.

Just here for the jewels.

Even if he had a gun in his hand and, you know, and he would do small talk, small talk, chit.

Chat, and became known as the gentlemanly or polite burglar.

He's putting on this Persona that, that I said, you know, as I said, really does fit into this trope that.

This character that's in the, the news.

And I think that can enable us. I think that lack of violence and just the sheer audacity and politeness, for want of a better word, can maybe.

Readers can root for him a little bit.

So, you know, maybe he can be our proxy when we want to see.

The wealthy sort of cut down to size a little bit.

And the way he did it, one of his victims, a woman who'd actually been confronted with her husband in her bedroom for a long time while burying.

An accomplice, rooted around for jewels.

She told the press later, I know he's terrible, but isn't he charming? So it's kind of a. It's like a Robin Hood who doesn't.

Give to the poor, right? Gives to himself.

There is that kind of character that, that, that the average person can sort of, if not support because they don't want to support a criminal. They can say, well, good on you.

Know, you want up somebody.

Absolutely. Yeah. There seems to be that impulse in at least American culture where, you know, I mean, I, I also think of the bank robbers of the 1930s where they, there was a bit of a cultural following. People like John Dillinger, where it's like, oh man, they're kind of, they're, you know, getting one over on the banks. And, and many of those people were actually very violent. Thinking of like Bonnie and Clyde, like that's often been romanticized where. No, they would actually kill people. But for something like this, where there really isn't violence, aside from holding a gun on someone, which, you know, of course is. It can be very traumatic. I don't want to downplay that, but. But definitely it seems like there was a. He was going out of his way to not hurt people. Is, Is that fair to say? These were, these were just for. And since we are the murder sheet, is it fair to say that in the commission of these robberies he didn't kill anyone and, and did not physically harm anybody?

No.

And other than.

And he said he carried the gun more for. He said many times that he would rather use a gun on himself than be captured. That ultimately didn't happen. But he never, he never fired a gun at a, at anyone he robbed. There's no evidence he never physically abused anyone. And as I said, I mean, there was another victim who actually met him after his arrest and thanked him for the gentlemanly way he'd robbed him, which.

Is how we put it, how this victim put it. So there was, that there was, that was definitely.

His MO Was non violence. And where I'd compare him to is slightly earlier than say, the, the public enemies in terms of public support for what they're doing to, to illegally reduce the income gap between rich and poor.

Let'S put it that way, would be Butch Cassidy.

And I think listeners will know the scene where, where the gang gets onto a passenger car and they're headed for the express car that is full of money. And as soon as people see them, they start reaching for their watches and wallets.

And Butch Cassidy, played by Paul Newman.

Says, no, no, we don't want yours, we want theirs.

Right. And, and immediately setting up the fact.

That it's us and them.

You know, I said there's nothing noble about Barry. He was feeding a gambling habit and a lifestyle habit that he very much.

Enjoyed, which is exactly.

I mean, he talks exactly like Cary.

Grant's character in To Catch a Thief. You know, I don't want to give up this Lifestyle. Any, you know, any woman who can run around with $750,000 worth of jewels knows where her next meal is coming from. This is his way of rationalizing it.

But that's true.

You know, he's.

And he's. And I think even we can even.

Root for him in the sense that what he's stealing is the ultimate status symbol for someone who's wealthy to flaunt. And I like to say that, you know, you can drive a Porsche or a Lamborghini, but you can still drive it. You can live in a huge estate, a huge mansion. You still live in it. Jewelry.

There's nothing you can do with jewelry.

Other than wear it and flaunt it.

To show how rich you are.

And it might have. Some of it might have sentimental value.

But he's targeting sort of the ultimate.

Status symbol of the super rich. And he could rationalize it further by saying, and inevitably they had insurance, so.

The real victim is perhaps an insurance company.

You know, what.

What could be easier to get behind.

Than that rationale, I guess.

Absolutely. Especially in a time with such, you know, wealth disparity as the 1920s, you know, which I think, you know, we probably feel today to a certain extent with like a sort of stratified society, the have nots and the have, you know, getting further and further apart. So it definitely feels very.

If, if, if people, celebrities or rich people show off their bling today. I mean, that the. They were showing off their bling 100 years ago, and Barry was very grateful for that.

I'm curious, you know, flip side, can you talk about some of Barry's pursuers? You mentioned that at first, police throughout these jurisdictions didn't even know what they were dealing with. They didn't know that these were connected. But, you know, I guess some of his foes, some of the people, the detectives trying to hunt down this jewel thief. And if you could maybe take us to 1927 when. When kind of he had a bit of a downfall. What happened there?

Well, I, I've compared or one of the. The ways I've described this is. Is the Great Gatsby meets to catch me if you can. So we got the Great Gatsby, the. The ultra glittery lifestyle of the rich and famous on Long Island.

But he needs a detective or he needs a pursuer. And I found one in Harold King.

The chief of detectives in Nassau county and Nassau County. Lots of wealthy people to protect in the early 20s. Finally gets its own police force. Harold King, spark guy gets, gets made chief of detectives he cracks some big.

Cases, but he's got this nemesis. There's this jewel thief he can't catch who's brazen. He keeps getting called out to the.

Homes of these wealthy people who are not happy for the intrusion and a lot of it. They're not happy for the notoriety because the press is having a field day with every one of these crimes. So, you know, if. If Barry's cutting them down to size by stealing the jewelry or the press is finishing the job by embarrassing him about it.

So he's got Harold King on his trail.

And Harold King actually at one point advises homeowners in Long island to get a gun and if you see someone on your property, use it. Which is pretty extreme because it may not have been Barry, but this is what he said. And he organized the nighttime patrols with the tommy guns looking for Barry.

But as well as I'd alluded to, a lot of these wealthy people would prefer to keep things hush hush.

And sometimes they were able to keep crimes out of the paper for days. They wouldn't report them to the police.

They'd hire private detectives.

And Barry's story shows that there was.

Sort of an underground way of sorting out these crimes.

A rich person would hire certain detectives who were known to use their contacts to find out who stole the jewels or who was fronting for this person.

And get them back at a fraction of the cost.

So one was Noel Scaffold. And he becomes a nemesis of berries.

He was so good at this, he became Nick. He was nicknamed the Great Retriever because if you could get the jewels back.

They had sentimental value. The the owner is happy if they can get them back for 10% of their value, the insurance companies happy.

The only people that aren't happy are the authorities, because it's an offense in New York called compounding a felony to essentially make money off a crime. So one of one of Barry's major.

Heists, when he stole millions of dollars worth of pearls from the heiress Jesse Donahue, heiress to the Woolworth five and dime store fortune, he slipped in and out of her Plaza Hotel suite and got away. And he actually sold these back to SCAFA and the insurance company and created a huge scandal again. The only thing nobody knew was Barry at that time. That only came out later. But Barry had another private detective named Val O'Farrell, who was a bit of a shady, just sort of a perfect noir on the wild side kind of private eye who was ethically fluid in his methods, let's put it that way. And he became instrumental in finally in using his contacts to finally unmask Barry and claim that it was his information. And, and the, the record seems to support this, that he got a tip that he passed on to the police and Harold King and Long island finally was able to arrest Barry.

Absolutely. So, you know, one thing that's interesting about Barry is I think with a lot of criminals, that would perhaps be the end of the story. But for us, it's not.

One thing I, I was, I think, will surprise readers is that this goes from a heist story to a love story, because in 1925, Barry meets a recently widowed woman named Anna Blake. They obviously fall for each other. They marry in 1925.

She thinks he's a pretty successful salesman.

And he's always flush with cash or seems to be. And he tells her he's a gambler, which is true, except that's how he's losing his money, not how he's gaining his money.

And she, she swore, and there's no evidence to say this is a lie on her part, but she swore she didn't know what he did, and she said she didn't care what he did anyway, not that she thought he was a jewel thief. But what happens in 1927 is Barry's.

Arrested, Anna's with him, and they have a few odds and ends of jewelry from heists on them. And to save her from being charged as an accessory and going to prison, Barry work cuts a deal, says he'll confess, and they throw him in prison for 25 years. So, as you said, 1927, you'd think would be the end of the story. But some hijinks ensue, and let's suffice.

It to say that, well, in 20. In 1929, he breaks out of Auburn.

Prison at the start of what becomes one of the worst riots in New York prison history, and is on the lam for three years and actually hides out as a fugitive with Anna for manages for three years before he's ultimately caught again.

Absolutely. I don't want to do too many spoilers, but I do want to single out one portion of the book that I found fascinating was Barry's link to the kidnapping of Charles Lindbergh Jr. Or at least perceived link, I should say. You know, this is one of the most infamous crimes of that time. And can you just speak a little bit about how Barry got kind of roped into that whole story?

Barry's a fugitive.

Still of interest to the press. Every time there's a major robbery, the headlines say, is Barry Back at it again. Now it's, it's pretty clear that, that Barry had learned his lesson and knew how lucky he was to have some more time with his wife. And he moved around quite a bit.

He ended up, as luck would have it, in New Jersey and the Lindbergh kidnapping happens in New Jersey, but that fact isn't known.

In the wake of the kidnapping, the New York Daily News, a crime obsessed tabloid newspaper that was only about 10 years old and had, had covered Barry's exploits In the 20s, they hired Val O'Farrell, the private eye who'd put Barry away or claimed he put Barry away. And he was doing a armchair second guessing of the New Jersey authorities. Most of it quite critical, most of it making Val O'Farrell sound like the smartest detective ever, which he wasn't.

But one of the things he floated out of the blue is, well, wait a minute now.

The Lindbergh kidnapper used the ladder. Arthur Barry used a ladder. He went in the second story window and no one heard him. That was how Arthur Barry did his things. Well, Arthur Barry stole jewels. The Lindbergh kidnapper stole a kid. That didn't matter.

So out of the blue he says, Barry's a fugitive, police should be looking for Barry. So that planted the idea. Ultimately when Barry is caught, since he's.

In New Jersey, the authorities who are under such pressure to solve what by this time is now a murder case because the Lindberg baby's body had been found. Yeah, seriously investigated.

And I wasn't sure how much detail.

There'D be on this case or on.

His part in the case because he was ultimate.

Barry was ultimately exonerated. But the New Jersey State Police has a huge archive of material from the investigation. And I was able to access that from the archivist there. And yeah, found blow by blow, police reports as they, you know, took Barry to lineups as they consulted witnesses, as they, they even checked his shoes against footprints, casts of footprints found at the scene. And it was fascinating to see as you said, that you know, he was, he was linked to the, to this by this tenuous, really this, this tenuous out of the blue allegation that perhaps he, he was one of the, you know, it fit his, his methods.

But Barry actually fought back and said, and basically said well no, he said.

Whoever did that was an amateur. I wouldn't have done it like that.

So, so it even, it not only.

Offended him because he was outraged to be, to be blackened, his reputation blackened with this idea that he could have been the murderer. He was Just as outraged that his professionalism and skill had somehow been denigrated by being compared to this, what he considered a botched break in.

There you go. He was a professional to the end. You know, one, one thing I wanted to ask you, just kind of going back a little bit earlier, just speak, you know, to cover the murder angle a little bit, is this, this case of Peter Wagner that Barry was, was linked to this kind of shooting in, in a scuffle and, and sort of. Can you speak to, to that? And does that shade our view or wrinkle anything around, you know, if we see Barry as violent or non violent or do you feel like he was maybe cleared in that situation?

Well, this came, this was quite this.

In 1922, Barry had started his, his, his robbery and he was with a childhood friend from Worcester named James Monahan.

And they went to a par.

They went to a dance hall in Bridgeport, Connecticut. And Barry knew Bridgeport because he'd worked in a munitions factory during the war. Before he went overseas, joined the army and went overseas. There was some words his, his friend Monahan mouthed off, insulted a woman. It was pretty obvious that two guys from out of town shouldn't do this. They tried to leave, were confronted, and there's no evidence that Barry knew what was coming next, which was Monahan pulled a gun and shot one of them. They got out of there. Barry was ultimately caught, Monahan wasn't. And Barry would not turn Monahan in. I mean, he, I don't know whether this was part of more twisted version of his gentleman code, but he wouldn't. So Barry was charged with murder. The case was eventually, I mean, it was so tenuous, the evidence against Barry was so tenuous that ultimately Barry pled guilty to assault and was given five months in jail. So it was a, it reflected it. But he never gave up Monahan as the actual shooter. And ultimately that cemented them as accomplices. When Barry needed someone to help him with some of his major heists, he.

Came to regret the decision.

But he chose Monahan, who was thuggish, quick tempered, everything Barry wasn't. And as I said, he came to regret that decision as, as readers will see in the book.

But yeah, there was that, that episode. And perhaps not surprisingly, Barry did collaborate.

With a biography that was done in the early 60s by a new York journalist named Neil Hickey. And he was pretty candid about a lot of things. There's not a mention of this dance hall shooting, but it was all over the papers. I mean, it's so much easier now, for me to find all of the coverage of these things on newspaper databases. I'm not faulting the authority, but it's pretty clear Barry didn't want to relive that aspect of his life.

And it was a pretty close call.

But as I said, the fact. I mean, the evidence was pretty clear. I was able to dig out not even the coroner's report evidence at the coroner's inquest. No one as much as the victim's friends were outraged and looking for justice. None of them ever thought Barry was the shooter. They recognized that he just was with the wrong guy at the wrong time.

That makes sense. And then sort of to conclude our discussion about Barry, I'm curious. You mentioned sort of the rogue with the heart of gold, the jewel thief with a heart of gold, earlier. You know, you've done such extensive research and work on Barry for this book. I mean, where do you come down on him? Do you think he had a heart of gold? Do you think that was sort of just part of the gentlemanly act? And how do you assess him at the end of the day?

Well, if there was something, you know, if there was an inconsistency, I mean.

It was a pretty violent breakout from prison. But there's no evidence that Barry shot anyone, even though he was armed. In fact, Barry got shot twice as he was escaping.

I mean, a former journalist was trained to be skeptical.

So I don't want to just buy into everything he says. And as a writer, as a researcher.

You have to interrogate what you're being told. But there is this thread of maybe.

Heart of gold for a jewel thief isn't the best way to put it.

Maybe just a good heart. But you do see. I mean, he does the gentlemanly thing.

To protect his wife.

He gets good reviews from his victims, you know, five star reviews. Isn't he charming? And ultimately, in his own words, he's very Frank. By the 1950s, he becomes kind of this curiosity.

He.

A number of features done on him. You know, it's been the World War.

Or into the Cold War.

People are kind of interested in the glittering twenties.

And there's a real Great Gatsby revival after the war.

So for whatever reason, Barry became interesting.

In Life magazine did a major profile of him in 1956 and described him as the greatest jewel thief who ever lived. It was one of the first things I found about Barry and I. I thought, okay, that's. That's intriguing. I gotta find out who this is.

But in, in those interviews, Barry made.

It very clear that he recognized, you know, what it had cost him, the high living, the crime. And it cost him a big chunk of his life so spent in prison. It cost him the woman he loved. It cost him any chance at a normal life.

And ultimately, when he was paroled and.

Released from prison, he earned back the.

Respect of family and friends in Worcester, went back to his hometown where he was notorious, and ultimately got a job.

Where he was entrusted with money, which seems odd, but he was. He did the bank deposit for a group of restaurants, was never a concern.

Again to anyone, and actually had stayed active in veteran circles and was Worcester's.

Veteran of the year in the 1970s.

So all of this speaks, I think, of. Of a good man who found a.

Very illegal way of making his way.

And he even said. He even said, look, you know, I was a smart guy when I was young because that he came to regret his choices. He said, I could have done anything. I could have. I could have made a killing on Wall Street.

Well, you know, he was a gambler.

He probably could have.

Could have done well.

And he even said to an interviewer, you know, when you write down all of these things, all of these big.

People I robbed, make sure you don't forget that Arthur Berry robbed Arthur Barry. And I thought, well, what a, you know, what a heartfelt way of putting it. In other words, who'd been robbed of the most had been Barry, because he'd been robbed of so much he could have been in his life.

So all of that told how he committed his crimes, how he repented. Yeah, I think, as I said, I think this is kind of an anti hero that we can have some respect.

For and some understanding of where he was coming from.

Absolutely. So I want to jump into talking about an abject villain next. Not so much in the antihero fold, much more in the yikes fold. I guess one of your other books that Kevin and I have read is the murderous Dr. Cream, which is also a fascinating read about an old crime that many people may. May have forgotten. And this is, of course about Dr. Thomas Neill Cream, aka the Lambeth Poisoner. I'm curious, can you tell us what inspired you to write that book?

Cream is a Canadian and I'm in Canada, so. Not that Canada wants to claim him. I knew of him. He bizarrely shows up on short lists of potential Jack the Ripper suspects for no other reason than three years after the Whitechapel murders. Cream is poisoning women in another drown trodden area of London, Lambeth. There's no other connection And Cream was in prison in Illinois at the time, which kind of is a complicating factor.

But not to the conspiracy theorists who.

Come up with bizarre ways to teleport him there.

So I knew of him, and I thought there had been one, a really.

Good academic study, but actually a good general read as well done in the 90s called prescription for Murder. And I thought, okay, could I update this story?

And I read that book, and I saw a lot of potential missed sources.

Court files, court coverage, newspaper accounts.

And I thought, I think there's enough here. But I. I didn't want to just.

Tell the story of.

Of murders, because the story here is.

That Cream commits at least 10 murders in three countries between 1877 and 1892, including.

But that includes a stretch of 10.

Years where he served life, part of a life sentence for one of his murders. So he was active for a very few years.

And my question became, how did he.

Get away with that?

And instead of this just being murder.

After murder after murder, which it is. I'm not. I wasn't downplaying the grotesque things he did to people, the suffering, because he.

His weapon of choice was strychnine.

So he qualified as a doctor, McGill University in Montreal. He knew how strychnine worked, and he worked out an MO where he would taint pills or concoct pills or tablets with strychnine, a deadly dose of strychnine, and killing mostly patients or women who came to him. He made it known he'd do abortions, so desperate women would come to him. He would say, this medicine will do it. Kill him. And then ultimately he seems to have just done it for fun.

So I wanted to understand how he could get away with it for so.

Long in so many places. And that led to other interesting paths of. Of inquiry. What was the state of detection in Canada, in Chicago, where Cream kills four of his victims, and then ultimately London on England, where he's going toe to toe with Scotland Yard, the most formidable policing agency on the planet at the time, which is having difficulty realizing they're dealing with serial killers. And forensics were rudimentary. The tests for the presence of strychnine, one of the foremost authorities in England tested for strychnine by putting a distillation of fluid from a corpse on his.

Tongue to decide whether the burning sensation which of various. He apparently his parlor trick was that.

He could identify up to 50 poisons by this method.

So, I mean, we're talking about a grim, almost a pre. Scientific or early scientific Time. So I wanted to know about that. But also the milieu that Cream was.

Moving in, how his privilege as a doctor with sterling credentials meant that he wasn't a suspect even when one of his patients died or not seen as suspect, serious suspect, and as well the position of women in Victorian society. This idea that a woman who was pregnant or gave birth out of, out of wedlock was living a living, it was called a living death.

So I really explored this because this became Cream's accomplice. Accomplice that women, his victims were driven to him. I mean compared to Jack the Ripper who stalked his victims dream, just had.

To wait for them to come to him. And he cruelly betrayed their trust, he cruelly abused his position and privilege.

So all of this gave such a.

Grim but also real, real look at the inequity and the prejudice and the misogyny of Victorian Victorian times. And again explained how Cream had gotten away with it for so long. So the subtitle of the book, it's, it's the Case of the murders Dr. Cream. But the subtitle is the Hunt for a Victorian Era Serial Killer. So the focus is the Manhunt. For me, that was the way to look into it. I, I don't soft pedal any of the, the crimes because I wanted to, to honor the victims who in earlier accounts, here and there, their names were misspelled, the number of victims was unknown.

I said, no, no, I'm going to make, I'm going to make you understand.

These were real people who encountered this vicious monster who was bent on, on ensuring they died cruel deaths. So I wanted all that, but I also wanted you to understand how the time and place again created, helped this monster, created this monster. And one of the devices I was able to use was when Cream's ultimately caught for his 10th murder in London in 1892, Scotland Yard realizes they, they, they suspect him of four murders in London. They realize there's six more back in Canada, United States. They send Inspector Frederick Jarvis, sort of one of their crack investigators to Canada and the U.S. to trace Cream's past and root. And he became the character that I could tell Cream's backstory. So I could start with Cream going to England and committing those murders. And the backstory is, how was this monster created? And so again, the focus was on the Manhunt.

Absolutely. It's, it's another fascinating book that we definitely encourage our readers or our listeners rather to read because it is just, it's like, it's very cinematic. Some of these Stories that you tell, like you can really, you transport, I think the reader back into these things and it just feels like you're, you're watching it all these kind of fascinating crimes that some folks may have heard of and others may be unfamiliar with, but you certainly, you know, unpack it in a way that I think it's very compelling.

Well, thanks. I mean it's, that's really, I think.

The business a non fiction writer should be in if you're writing about history, is to transport the reader to a time and place. I teach in a graduate program, an MFA program here in Canada. Creative non fiction. And some people think, well, does that mean you create stuff? And it's the opposite creative part is the storytelling. Using scenes, using characters, using settings, even dialogue. But all of it true, all of it based on the public record. You work with what you've got. So you have to do a lot of research. But you know, if, if a color is described, that's because it was described in a record. If there's a quotation that came from a record, if there's a conversation that's related in a memoir or it's the give and take in a courtroom. So all of it's true. But the real challenge and the real art of it is to try to put the reader in the moment and to make you feel like, yeah, that you're watching this happen in real time. But I just wanted to assure people that, that, you know, the creative part is not adding anything, no embellishment at all. And readers of my work will find copious endnotes. And I just think that's so important because the easy way would be to, well, I don't quite know what this room looked like. You know, I'll assume. And you can't, you can say sometimes, no doubt this happened or likely, but you do that sparingly. You know, the, I think the narrator jumps in with that sparingly. You make the most of what you've got. And if you're recreating a scene, what something looked like, that's because you poured over photos, you've poured over maps, you poured over memoirs. And the details you're giving are absolutely correct.

And I'm curious. Earlier in our conversation you mentioned, you know, you want a, a story to have legs and, and as you sort of, I suppose, maybe, maybe look for your next story to tell. You know, what, what sort of things give you an indication that this is going to be something worth pursuing for sort of a book length project?

Well, the idea is my editor At.

Algonquin, Amy Gash always, you know, we talk about an idea, you know, it's like, and, you know, and what else?

And that, so I'm conditioned to look for that. But it's, it's kind of this bigger picture. So, and when we're, when I'm dealing.

With students and they're talking about their.

Projects, it's, it's kind of like, what else is your book about?

You know, I'm writing a memoir or I'm writing this story about this calamity.

What is that bigger picture? If listeners are familiar with David Grann's.

Latest book, the Wager, and It's about a 250 year old shipwreck of a British frigate on a remote island off South America and the ordeal of the survivors.

But he explains that there's a bigger picture. It's a bigger picture of imperial hubris, the idea that the British Empire could.

Basically project its power anywhere its ships could sail running headfirst into the reality of this inhospit, hospitable weather and land and island that these, these unfortunates end up shipwrecked on.

And also that it becomes a breakdown.

Of, of order and discipline that the navy that the, the British armed forces so jealously guarded and out of, that becomes different narratives.

So, so David explains that it's really, it's, it's a bigger story about the.

Lies and truths people, nations, organizations tell, tell themselves, tell others to justify their position.

So, so suddenly this riveting event of this shipwreck, which in a sense is.

Enough, also has more.

And I think that's what I'm, I'm saying is. So with Cream is this gripping tale.

Of the hunt for this Victorian era serial killer. But what does it say about the time and place and how does it, you know, what are the other aspects Victorian society, the state of detection, the state of forensics.

So that's what I mean by, by.

Legs and in Barry, it's the allure of Barry Jewels, the, the iconic jewel thief in popular culture, the celebrity, celebrity crook that he becomes later after his arrest and, and huge headlines and, and my life telling his life story in serialized form. Those are the kinds of things that I, I think transform a great story into an, an even better credible story.

I wanted to ask you, Dean, is there anything I didn't ask you before we go, anything you wanted to mention or talk about either of these stories or your process or anything like that?

No, I, I think maybe you've handled it great.

Love to hear that. And then where can people find your books?

They can find my books everywhere.

The Gentleman a Thief is published in the US By Algonquin Books, which is part of A Shed, and In Canada it's HarperCollins Canada, available everywhere. But people want to find out more about those that book. My other books, my what I'm working on now can go to my website www.deaN-E-A-N d J-O-B-B.com Amazing.

Well thank you so much. It was really a pleasure talking to you and I can't recommend these books enough. They're really, really good for for everyone looking for sort of a historical non fiction mystery that really does transport you to these times and introduces you to some pretty fascinating characters.

Well, thank you.

Thanks for your interest in having me on.

[Anya Cain]

We want to thank Dean for talking to us. We'll link to his website and books in our show notes. Check them out.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Thanks so much for listening to the Murder Sheet. If you have a tip concerning one of the cases we cover, please email [e-mail]. if you have actionable information about an unsolved crime, please report it to the appropriate authorities.

[Anya Cain]

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[Kevin Greenlee]

Special thanks to Kevin Tyler Greenlee, who composed the music for the Murder Sheet and who you can find on the web at kevintg.

[Anya Cain]

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[Kevin Greenlee]

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[Dean Jobe]

Yeah.

[Anya Cain]

Thanks so much to Acorns. Remember, when you support our sponsors, you're supporting us and our sponsors make it possible for us to do this job. So we really appreciate them.

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We love our sponsors.

[Anya Cain]

Absolutely. Acorns is a terrific investing app. It's the perfect thing for somebody who wants to get started with their personal finance journey.

[Kevin Greenlee]

That can seem daunting.

[Anya Cain]

It. It is daunting. I I'm so not financially minded. For me, it's always really hard to get started with something like this where you're like what am I doing? But Acorns sort of takes the guesswork out of that. It gets you started and it will essentially help you take control of your financial future. You can get set up pretty quickly and it allows you to start automatically. Saving and investing that money can help you, your kids, if you have a family retirement and you don't need to be rich, you don't need to be an expert to do this. It's very simple. And you can start with only $5 or whatever change you have. It's not like you need to put in some massive payment. So it is a, it's, it's a great fit for people who are starting out, but they want to take the next step and improve themselves financially and make their money work for them more. So if you're Interested, head to acorns.commsheet or download the Acorns app to start saving and investing for your future today. Paid non client endorsement compensation provides incentive to positively promote Acorns tier one compensation provided investing involved risk. Acorns Advisors LLC and SEC registered investment advisor. View important [e-mail] can we talk a.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Little bit before we go about Quints, a great new sponsor for us? I think in one of the ads that we've already done for them, we talked about the compliments I'm getting on my jacket. I know you're a very modest woman, but can we talk about the compliments you're getting on the Quint's products you wear?

[Anya Cain]

Yeah, I've got two of their Mongolian cashmere sweaters. They're a brand that just does this sort of luxury, various products but without the crazy costs really. Well they are. They give you Italian leather handbags. They do like European linen sheets. You have a really cool suede jacket. And I really like the way I look in my sweaters. I like the way you look in your bomber jacket. It looks super cool.

[Kevin Greenlee]

You've gotten a lot of compliments when you go out wearing these sweaters.

[Anya Cain]

I think I have, yeah.

[Kevin Greenlee]

And deservedly so.

[Anya Cain]

Also like I'm one of those people. My skin is very like, you know, like I, I kind of sensitive. So when it comes to wearing sweaters, like, you know, sometimes it's something's too scratchy, like it really bothers me. These are so soft. They're just like very delicate and soft and make they're wearing them is lovely because they're super comfortable. You're not, you're not. It's not one of those things where you're like, you buy it and it looks great, but it doesn't feel that great. They look great. They feel great.

[Dean Jobe]

Yeah.

[Anya Cain]

I really love them. And you got, you know, your cool jacket. I mean that's a little bit of a. You're the guy who like wears the same thing all the time. So this is a bit of a, a gamble for you, a bit of a risk. You got something a bit different.

[Kevin Greenlee]

I do wash my clothes.

[Anya Cain]

I know you wash your clothes, but I mean, you're filthy.

[Kevin Greenlee]

You made me sound awful, so. No, I wash my clothes.

[Anya Cain]

But you don't really.

[Kevin Greenlee]

I launder them.

[Anya Cain]

You don't really experiment with fashion that much is what I'm saying. So this is a little bit out of the norm for you, but I think you really like it and it looks good.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Thank you. Great products, incredible prices.

[Anya Cain]

Quincy.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Com.

[Anya Cain]

There you go. So you can go to quince.com msheet and right now they're offering 365 day returns plus free shipping on your order. So it's quince.com msheet that's Q U I N C E.com M S H.

[Kevin Greenlee]

E-E-T before we go, we just wanted to say another few words about Via. This is really a wonderful product. I think it's really helped both of us get a lot better rest.

[Anya Cain]

Via is pretty much, I guess you'd say, the only lifestyle hemp brand out there. So what does that mean? It means that they're all about crafting different products to elicit different moods. Kevin and I really like their non thc CBD products. Specifically Zen really helps me fall asleep some. Zen can really just kind of help me get more into that state where I can relax and, and fall asleep pretty easily. And, and they're just, they've been such a wonderful support to us. They're a longtime sponsor. We really love working with them and they really make the show possible. I'm going to say this like, you may not realize this, but when you support our sponsors, you're supporting us and it kind of makes us impossible for us to do the show. So if you or one of your loved ones is interested in trying some of this stuff, you're going to get a great deal. It's very high, high quality, high value.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Anya, if I wanted to get this discount you speak of, what do I do?

[Anya Cain]

Okay, if you're 21 and older, head to viahemp.com and use the code msheet to receive 15% off. And if you're new to via, get a free gift of your choice. That's v I I a hemp.com and use code M sheet at checkout. Spell the code M S H E E T and after you purchase, they're going to ask you, hey, where did you hear about us? Say the murder sheet. Because then it lets them know that our ads are effective and it really helps us out.