James Comey on Spies, Surveillance and Seashells

Summary

Murder Sheet – "James Comey on Spies, Surveillance and Seashells"

Date: May 12, 2026
Guests: James Comey (Former FBI Director, author of "Red Verdict")
Hosts: Áine Cain (journalist) & Kevin Greenlee (attorney)

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Episode Overview

This episode features an in-depth conversation with former FBI Director and thriller author James Comey. The primary focus is Comey’s new novel, "Red Verdict," which explores espionage, Russian intelligence, and the realities of national security work. The episode also addresses Comey’s recent indictment over a perceived threat involving seashells and the broader implications for the rule of law and political weaponization in America. The hosts and Comey discuss the intersection between real-life justice, spycraft, and crime fiction, including behind-the-scenes insights from Comey's FBI career and his novel-writing process.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Context: Comey’s Indictment and Rule of Law

• Indictment Background (01:54–05:34)
  • Comey was recently indicted after posting an Instagram photo where seashells spelled out “8647”; authorities claim this was a threat against President Trump.
  • Universal condemnation from legal and political figures across the spectrum; both left and right consider the charges “ridiculous” and politically motivated.
  • Notable Quote:
    • "No one seriously believes that Mr. Comey was making a threat to harm the president." — Anya Cain (02:52)
    • "This is a misuse and a perversion of the Justice Department." — Kevin Greenlee (03:13)
    • "It is a vindictive prosecution...absurd." — Summarizing conservative critics (04:05)
  • The hosts remind listeners that the heart of the episode is Comey’s fiction, not legal drama.

2. Introduction to "Red Verdict" and Espionage Focus

• Why Write About Russians? (09:23–10:30)

  • Comey wanted to showcase the world of counterintelligence, especially as it relates to Russian intelligence, drawing on his FBI experience.
  • Notable Quote:
    • "There is no more significant player in counterintelligence than the Russians. ... It's real. It's true to life." — Comey (09:43)
  • Russians operate like mob families—competing agencies, shadowy methods, recruiting vulnerable Americans.

• Comparison: Russian vs. Chinese Intelligence (10:43)

  • Russians are more secretive and aggressive, relying on human recruitment; Chinese focus more on cyber operations and are less shadowy.

3. Realities of Espionage and Prosecution

• Public Awareness of Counterintelligence (11:43)

  • Most Americans are unaware of the scale of espionage threats facing the U.S., and the FBI’s counterintelligence role is less visible than counterterrorism.

• Cold War Legacy (12:24–13:53)

  • The end of the USSR “freed millions” but left Russia “wounded”—leading to increased aggressiveness under Putin.
  • Notable Quote:
    • "They continue to be a sworn adversary of the United States, despite what our current president sometimes says." — Comey (12:43)

• Russian-Backed Violence (13:53–15:16)

  • Citing public cases like the Salisbury nerve agent attack, Comey emphasizes Russia’s willingness to use force against defectors worldwide.
  • Avoids confirming attacks on U.S. soil specifically.

• Balancing Fact and Fiction (15:16–16:08)

  • Comey is meticulous to base his fiction only on public information, protecting classified details.
  • Real cases inspire elements—e.g., a public Obama-era indictment of Russian “diplomats” forms a template in his book.

4. Crafting Realistic Spy Fiction

• Research Process (17:44–18:31)

  • Starts with the story, then finds public cases to build believable and accurate plot elements—anything not publicly available is omitted.

• Special Operations Group (18:31–20:13)

  • Comey’s affection for the FBI’s surveillance teams (“my ghosts”), which blend in, gather intel, and don’t meet standard agent physical requirements.
  • Internal naming drama as evidence of morale and camaraderie.

• Manhattan’s Spy Magnetism (20:15–21:33)

  • Manhattan is an epicenter for espionage due to the UN and international organizations.
  • Describes the real "Buryakov case" involving a bugged notebook, which became a key plot device (21:34).

• Danger & Legal Complexities (23:09–24:47)

  • Russians are formidable and sometimes violent; prosecutors must weigh prosecution against the need to shield secrets.
  • Often, expulsion is chosen over trial to avoid damaging intelligence leaks (23:09).

• National Security Legal Challenges (24:50–26:33)

  • “Graymail” (threatening to expose secrets if prosecuted) is managed via statutory mechanisms like the Classified Information Procedures Act, balancing defendant rights without state harm.

• Inside the FBI: Trust and Paranoia (27:05–28:22)

  • Recalls the Robert Hanssen betrayal—counterintelligence fosters mistrust, as adversaries might even try to frame innocents.
  • Notable Quote:
    • "It's a terrible. It makes for a difficult workplace... I have to assume you're a Russian spy if I'm going to love you enough." — Comey (27:05)

• Fiction vs. Reality in Espionage (28:25–30:33)

  • More inter-agency team effort than lone heroics.
  • The process is based in legal, cooperative, bureaucratic work, with stakes of national security and freedom.

5. Series' Structure & Character Philosophy

• Unique Approach to Series Fiction (31:24–32:54)

  • Each Nora Carlton book focuses on a different threat or legal issue—keeps writing interesting and readers engaged.
  • Notable Quote:
    • "If you open a book, a Nora Carlton book, you're going to find familiar characters...but they're going to be dealing with different challenges." — Comey (31:24)

• Character Development Over Time (33:23–34:51)

  • Characters age, change, and face real-life challenges, contrary to the "static hero" trope.

• Emphasis on Teamwork (35:20)

  • Refutes the myth of the "brilliant loner" hero; effectiveness in real investigations always comes from team collaboration.

6. Writing Process and Mindset

• Process & Flow State (39:05–43:03)

  • No strict routine—writes when “the tank is full.”
  • The “flow state” is a deep immersion where writing comes naturally, losing track of time.
  • Notable Quote:
    • “I will find something flowing out of my fingers … I’m with Benny, I’m in the car... and I’ll look up and the sun’s going down. That’s a flow state.” — Comey (41:11)

• Involvement of Family (38:08–38:52)

  • Comey’s wife, Patrice, helps keep fictional characters and relationships realistic.

7. Motivation, Mission, and Substack

• Intrinsic Motivation vs. External Rewards (44:17–48:21)

  • Meaning and fulfillment in life come from within, not from money or fame.
  • Notable Quote:
    • "For the extrinsically motivated, money is the table. It is everything. And that's a path to misery." — Comey (44:17)
  • Substack videos, done at his wife's urging, seek to offer perspective and encouragement during dark political times.

• Effective Communication ("The Mother Rule") (49:09–50:54)

  • Good communicators should speak simply and directly—like they would to their mother, without jargon or acronyms.

8. Looking Ahead: Next Book & Optimism

• Upcoming Projects (51:19–53:12)

  • Next book may explore policing, set in Richmond, Virginia, reflecting on both history and present-day challenges.

• Personal Resilience and Optimism (53:46–57:51)

  • Comey is resilient in the face of legal targeting, focusing on the broader mission of protecting democratic values.
  • Remains deeply optimistic about America’s ability to rebound from current political divisiveness.
  • Notable Quote:
    • “I think we're going to see an unleashing of interest, concern, and action to reinforce our values… maybe since the Progressive Era.” — Comey (54:53)

• Dedication and Acknowledgment (58:05–58:54)

  • The book is dedicated to public servants, including his daughter, who have been forced out for doing the right thing.
  • Nora and Benny are fictional stand-ins for real-life honest public servants.

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• "If in a book, you put in a story element that dealt with seashells at the beach being the subject of a criminal case, your editor would strike that out in the first pass." — James Comey (08:43)
• "There are no brilliant loners in the worlds of investigation and prosecution that I've worked in." — James Comey (35:20)
• "You all know this, but there's lots of stages to a book. So there's the draft writing stage... then there'll be an iteration stage... But that initial writing stage, sometimes I will sit at my computer, starting after breakfast... and then it's flowing out of me." — Comey (39:05)
• “I want to try marijuana, but I can’t try it until it’s legal federally, because I really don’t need to walk into another prosecution by the Trump Justice Department.” — James Comey (43:11)
• “My advice is, your goal is to get something you know into the heads of other people. If your mom had the ability to listen to anything you do, you would look her in the eye... you would speak plainly.” — James Comey (49:12)
• "We have a rock solid set of values in this country. The Department of Justice has always stood for those values and will again." — James Comey (53:46)

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Segment Timestamps

• Intro & Indictment Context: 01:21–06:05
• Focusing on the Book: 06:33–09:23
• Russian Espionage & Counterintelligence: 09:23–12:43
• Prosecution Challenges & Ethics: 15:01–24:47
• Inside FBI Culture, Manhattan Espionage: 20:13–22:37
• Fiction vs. Reality in Espionage: 27:05–30:33
• Book Series Philosophy: 31:24–35:20
• Writing Life & Creativity: 38:08–43:03
• Money, Motivation, Substack: 44:17–48:21
• Communication Tips: 49:09–50:54
• Upcoming Book & Country’s Future: 51:19–57:51
• Dedication & Conclusion: 58:05–58:54

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Tone & Closing Note

The tone of the episode is candid, earnest, and at times darkly humorous. The conversation blends real-world gravity (threats to the rule of law, political weaponization) with the lighter, methodical craft of fiction-writing and the camaraderie of law enforcement. Comey remains optimistic, echoing American resilience through stormy times, with both his book and life experience serving as reminders of integrity in public service.

Recommendation: The hosts thoughtfully urge listeners to read "Red Verdict," which merges authentic legal and spycraft drama with the hope for justice and democracy that threads through both Comey's fiction and his life.

Transcript

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[James Comey]

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[James Comey]

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[Podcast Co-host Kevin Greenlee]

Hi, I'm Kevin, and today we will be speaking with former FBI director James Comey about his terrific new novel Red Verdict. And it is entirely possible that another news story that he's at the center of might come up a time or two content warning.

[Podcast Co-host Anya Cain]

We will be getting into politics in this episode. If that's gonna make anyone freak out, just don't listen. Or maybe do, because I actually think it's important for people to understand this, that there are certain things that are simply wrong and sometimes partisanship needs to be set aside.

[Podcast Co-host Kevin Greenlee]

Today we're gonna be speaking with former FBI director James Comey about his wonderful new novel, Red version Verdict. Listeners may recall that we've had Mr. Comey on the program three times previously to speak about his fiction writing and his career. We always really appreciate these conversations. We would be remiss, however, if we did not mention the fact here at top that Mr. Comey has recently found himself in the middle of a national news story. On April 28, 2026, just a few days before we recorded this interview, the justice department announced that Mr. Comey had been indicted. Back in May of 2025, he had posted to Instagram a picture of seashells, which had been arranged to spell out 8 6, 4, 7. The Justice Department says that by doing so, Mr. Comey was threatening to do physical harm to President Donald Trump.

[Podcast Co-host Anya Cain]

If you are a regular listener to our program, you will know we always say that it is important to wait for all evidence to come in before making a determination about. But this is an instance where we believe we know enough to say that these are ridiculous charges. No one seriously believes that Mr. Comey was making a threat to harm the president.

[Podcast Co-host Kevin Greenlee]

The charges only seem to have been filed because of President Trump's animosity towards Mr. Comey. It is a misuse and a perversion of the Justice Department. And if this sort of thing is allowed to succeed, then it will ultimately threaten the rights of anyone who wishes to speak out against whoever happens to sit in the White House.

[Podcast Co-host Anya Cain]

It is unsurprising that many who oppose President Trump, Democratic figures and liberal or left leaning commentators have unequivocally condemned this indictment.

[Podcast Co-host Kevin Greenlee]

House Minority Leader Hakeem Jeffries said it was a disgraceful attack on the rule of law. Representative Jamie Raskin, a Democrat from Maryland, called it surreal and absurd. Democratic Senator Chris Murphy of Connecticut said it represented a constitutional crisis, a slide from democracy to autocracy.

[Podcast Co-host Anya Cain]

But we also want to point out

that this is not a right versus left political issue. A number of people on the conservative side of the fence have spoken out against it as well. Trump congressional ally Troy Nels called it a stretch. Former Fox News analyst Judge Andrew Napolitano called it frivolous. Fox News analyst Jonathan Turley said it was a weak case. National Review's Andrew McCarthy said it was absurd. Republican Senator Thom Tillis of North Carolina called it a vindictive prosecution. Even podcaster Joe Rogan said it was nuts.

[Podcast Co-host Kevin Greenlee]

Jonathan Carle of ABC News noted that he spoke with prosecutors who told him it was, quote, the flimsiest federal indictment that they had ever seen, end quote. Carl went on to say, quote, I have spoken to no serious lawyers who think these charges will result in a conviction. The near universal view is that it will be thrown out before it gets to trial.

[Podcast Co-host Anya Cain]

That is our view as well. This indictment will fall, but we find it outrageous that it was ever filed. And we have deep concerns about the weaponization of the Department of Justice against one's political enemies. Actions like these undermine the rule of law. It should embarrass everyone who cares about the cause of justice, anyone who cares about the United States of America. Frankly, the attorneys who stoop to maliciously prosecuting the President's political enemies are unfit to be prosecutors. They're unfit to be attorneys. This is wrong.

[Podcast Co-host Kevin Greenlee]

With all of that said, our primary focus in this episode will be squarely on Mr. Comey's wonderful new novel, Red Verdict. There are a couple of references to the indictment primarily made by Anya and myself. There are also a couple of times when Mr. Comey makes comments that are critical of President Trump. Of course, even if he wasn't under this indictment, that would be his right as a citizen. We should all feel free to criticize our leaders without having to worry that they were sending the Department of Justice after us.

[Podcast Co-host Anya Cain]

My name is Anya Cain. I'm a journalist.

[Podcast Co-host Kevin Greenlee]

And I'm Kevin Greenlee. I'm an attorney.

[Podcast Co-host Anya Cain]

And this is the Murder Sheet.

[Podcast Co-host Kevin Greenlee]

We're a true crime podcast focused on original reporting, interviews and deep dives into murder cases.

[Podcast Co-host Anya Cain]

We're the Murder Sheet.

[Podcast Co-host Kevin Greenlee]

And this is James Comey on Spies, Surveillance and Seashells.

[Podcast Co-host Anya Cain]

Sam,

[Podcast Co-host Host (possibly Kevin or Anya)]

We were really grateful and appreciative of you taking the time to talk with us. And I just wanted to say that you're at the center of a national story this week where a. Absolutely. This is my opinion. This is not you talking about the case. This is just you listening to me because I know you have great attorneys who wouldn't want you to talk about the details of this case. So in my opinion, you're facing an indictment that is self evidently ridiculous. It is one of the stupidest things I've heard either in real life or fiction. And it's outrageous. And I wanted to say that and I wanted to explain why we're not going to be talking about it. And I wanted to add that one of the many, many pleasures of your fiction, which we're going to be, is going to be the centerpiece of our discussion today. When the many pleasures about your fiction is it is about a world where the people in our state prosecution system, the people representing the government, they are making their decisions based on facts and truth and they are fighting for the facts and the truth and they're not letting politics influence them. They're just doing the right thing. We don't have that world now. I'm confident we will get back to it. And in the meantime, we have your books to remind us of that world. And I'm grateful to you for that. And the book we're talking about today is Red Verdict and it is a wonderful book that I highly recommend.

[James Comey]

Well, thank you for that, Kevin. It's great to be with both of you again. Yeah, I think. Well said. We will get back to that world where the values of Our country and our Department of Justice are aligned. And in the meantime, if you. If in a book, you put in a story element that dealt with seashells at the beach being the subject of a criminal case, your editor would strike that out in the first. In the first pass. Come on. This is fiction, but let's not go crazy. So, yeah, I appreciate us also not talking about it, but my attitude about it should be obvious, and we will fight it till our last breath. And then whatever comes next, we'll fight that as well.

[Podcast Co-host Anya Cain]

Absolutely. So, getting onto the book, what made you decide to make Russians the focus this time? We've seen Nora and company sort of go up against all manner of criminals, and we'll talk about that in a minute. But what inspired the Russian angle for this one?

[James Comey]

I'm trying in my books, this is the fourth that I'm actually working on, the fifth now, to show parts of the worlds I've known to readers. And I've seen a lot of different parts of the federal criminal justice system and investigations and the FBI. And as I thought about what I had shown so far, it occurred to me I haven't introduced our readers to the world of counterintelligence, which I dealt with a lot in my career. And there is no more significant player in counterintelligence than the Russians. And so I thought, what an important way to offer a vantage point on the system than having Nora and Benny grapple with the threat of Russian spies. And so that's why I wrote this. It's real. It's true to life. Although it's a fiction story, one of

[Podcast Co-host Anya Cain]

the characters observes at one point that the Russians are a bit like a mob in terms of their intelligence services, in terms of how they do espionage. Can you discuss, you know, what that means and why that is?

[James Comey]

So, you know, the Russians have an old counterintelligence intelligence gathering apparatus that we try and defeat with our counterintelligence work in the United States. And they have fierce competitions within their system. The old KGB was broken up, and so there's different pieces that compete. Their internal security service, their external security service, their external military intelligence service. They compete like mob families, and they operate like a Cosa Nostra organization. They are. Operate in the shadows. They are constantly trying to find vulnerable people and flip them, develop human sources in the United States and recruit in almost in the way that a mob family might. So there's a lot of similarities there. They're different in that regard from the Chinese. The Chinese intelligence effort is much broader and less in the Shadows in a lot of ways, and more reliant on cyber means than the Russians.

[Podcast Co-host Anya Cain]

Do you think that most Americans have a good understanding of Russian activities in this country in terms of espionage?

[James Comey]

I don't, I don't think for reasons that make sense, because it has to be in the shadows that Americans understand. What a huge part of the FBI's work is devoted to trying to understand threats from our adversaries here in the United States to steal our secrets, to recruit people, to work for them. And the amount of time and effort that's devoted to trying to blunt the Russians, the Chinese and the Iranians in particular, is little known, or maybe less known than the FBI's work in counterterrorism and counter intelligence and criminal.

[Podcast Co-host Anya Cain]

And then I'm curious, you having been at the forefront of this, having worked on these issues throughout your career, do you. Is it, I mean, oftentimes I think Americans view ourselves as having won the Cold War against the ussr. You know, now Russia, is that. Did we win? Is it still going on?

[James Comey]

Well, we won in the sense, maybe the most important sense, that millions and millions of people were freed from the grip of tyranny when the Eastern European bloc and Ukraine and many other parts of the former Soviet Union were able to escape its, its grasp. And that left a wounded in many different ways, especially in psyche, a wounded Russia that in a lot of senses became sort of more dangerous because it viewed itself as a, as occupying a very insecure space in, in world affairs and led by a guy who came up through the intelligence services, Vladimir Putin. And so they, they continue to be a sworn adversary of the United States, despite what our current president sometimes says. And part of their battle with the west is below the surface, I guess, literally in Europe in efforts to damage various pipelines and cables. But figuratively, in Europe and in the United States, they are operating below the surface to try and wage a battle against us.

[Podcast Co-host Host (possibly Kevin or Anya)]

Not to give anything away, but in the opening pages, there's a very dramatic murder. And we're just really thrown immediately into this story and it turns out that the weapon used is a nerve agent and it was done by agents of foreign intelligence. And I'm curious, do you believe there have been cases where foreign intelligence has committed murder on American soil?

[James Comey]

Yeah, I don't want to say about American soil because it, it's. I've tried to draw this particular case, the use of this particular compound from public accounts of attacks in Europe, especially a well known one in Salisbury, in England. And so that's what I've based it on. There's no doubt that the Russians, because they operate like a mafia organization, use force to try and deter any of their people from going sideways and to punish people who do that. There's been public accounts in the United States of Russian intelligence trying to find defectors who the American government may have hidden in the United States. But I don't want to comment on particular acts of violence in the U.S.

[Podcast Co-host Host (possibly Kevin or Anya)]

yeah, that brings up something. Is it challenging for you when you, when you're crafting one of these stories to make sure that you're basing it on stuff that is just publicly available since you have in your head all of these secrets that have been undisclosed?

[James Comey]

Yes, I have to be. Even if we had an administration in the United States, a presidential administration that cared about the rule of law, I would still need to be attentive to my obligation to protect secret information. And so I am very, very careful about that. What I think, what makes me useful to readers is because I've been in it, I can offer a flavor that doesn't give anything away, but gives you a real sense of how these things go. And then what I'll do is take the particulars of a case from public sources. For example, I used a case that the government brought publicly during the Obama administration against Russian, I guess, alleged diplomats who were recruiting people in the United States and used that to inform some of the stuff that goes on in my book. But so yes, I have to protect secrets and I work pretty hard to do that.

[Podcast Co-host Anya Cain]

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[Podcast Co-host Host (possibly Kevin or Anya)]

what is the research process like for you when you're going through and trying to find publicly available documents or cases to kind of loosely base some things on?

[James Comey]

Well, first I'll conceive of so what's the story? I want to tell you what were the cool parts of counterintelligence investigations and especially those that blossomed into prosecutions? And so if I can, I want those cool parts to be part of my story. And then with the story mapped in my head, I then start thinking, so can I find support in the public sphere for this particular part, this particular part, this particular part. And that's what I do. And if I can't, if there's something that was cool and there is no public sourcing for it, I got to leave it out. And so that's how I do it.

[Podcast Co-host Host (possibly Kevin or Anya)]

Speaking of cool stuff, you often include like little details. Like you wrote about the Special Operations group of the FBI. Can you tell us about that and the kind of work they do? Because I found it fascinating.

[James Comey]

Yeah, there's a part of the FBI workforce that specializes in surveillance and there's two pieces to it. One is armed agents who conduct surveillance, and then another piece is unarmed non agent employees who conduct surveillance. And they are really a special group because they don't look like the rest of the FBI. They're not subject to the same physical standards that might be applied to agents in particular. Their job is to blend in and learn to see but never be seen and to do it in all different kinds of ways. And I always loved them. I called them my ghosts. And they were, I think they felt a little underappreciated when I was first director because this was all public. But the director before me, the great Bob Mueller, who recently died, had changed the name of their operation to Mobile Surveillance Team A for those who carried weapons, and Mobile Surveillance Team MST for those who didn't. They hated the name change because they have been known for decades as one group SOG and the other group. Ssg, Special Surveillance Group, Special Operations Group. And so they were big fans of mine because I changed the name back because they loved the names. And why don't. If they love the names and they have to spend 12, 14 hours every day in a car, I don't want people pissed off about what they're called. So we went back to the old names, and I made friends for life.

[Podcast Co-host Anya Cain]

That's amazing.

[James Comey]

I love that.

[Podcast Co-host Anya Cain]

The internal FBI drama in terms of your own career, whether it was with the FBI or in the U.S. attorney's office. Are there any espionage cases that stuck out to you that you can talk about that were sort of prosecuted and any sort of memories you can share around that?

[James Comey]

Yeah, one of the cases that I based a big piece of this on was the case against a guy named Buryakov, who. He and another guy worked purportedly in the trade mission for the Russians in Manhattan. And this is something people often don't see, that Manhattan is a locus of intelligence operations, frankly, in a way that exceeds that in Washington, because in Manhattan, there's so many more organizations and people associated with. Well, first of all, the UN and then international commerce of all different kinds.

[Podcast Co-host Anya Cain]

And.

[James Comey]

And the world is in Manhattan in a way that it isn't in Washington. And so obviously, Washington is an important counterintelligence site for the FBI, but New York is enormous in that regard. And so the Buryakov case was one in which the FBI disclosed publicly that we had given the Russians a notebook they were trying. Thought they were recruiting an American employee at a UN Organization, as I recall.

[Podcast Co-host Anya Cain]

The.

[James Comey]

And we gave them a notebook that had hidden in its spine a recording device. And it was purportedly something that they. Well, they had asked this person they were trying to recruit to produce something from his organization. That's often a first step in recruiting, something fairly harmless. Give it to us. It's a way of dragging that person across the line. And so we gave him a notebook that had a recording device in it. And our wildest dreams came true because they took the notebook inside their secure. Their version of what we call a skiff, a room designed to defeat electronic surveillance. And they brought it in. They talked a lot. Then they gave the notebook back to the person they were trying to recruit. And so we had recordings from inside their secure facilities of them talking, not realizing they were speaking into an FBI microphone that they then returned. And so I was very surprised when the Justice Department decided to make that public. And I'm gonna forget the year, but in. During the time when I was director. And so I was able to use that for the story. Wow.

[Podcast Co-host Anya Cain]

I was wondering, you know, when. When you are, like, a prosecutor possibly working on a counter espionage case or, you know, case involving, you know, Russian spies and whatnot, are there concerns about, like, safety and, like, what that could mean? I mean, in this book, there's a lot of suspense around, like, you know, what are the Russians gonna do next? And I love all the infighting between the Russians because you kind of get the sense there's some that are maybe a little bit more predictable and then others that might be a little bit more willing to use violence and even surveying or following around prosecutors. So is that something that is true to life?

[James Comey]

Yes. I mean, the Russians are a very aggressive and often brutal adversary around the world. As they've demonstrated, they will use violence to deter, to coerce, to send messages. And so, yeah, that's an important concern. And then another concern, always when prosecutors are interacting with the world of counterintelligence, is what's the best way to defeat this threat? Because only sometimes is the best way going to be to try to go into court and use the tools of the criminal justice system to incapacitate a particular threat actor. More often, you're going to look for ways to recruit that person, or if you're worried about what might happen in a criminal public case in revealing secrets, that you simply kick that person out of the country and they know, and then. And the adversary knows that you've identified them, and so they can't work again in intelligence collection against the United States or any of its allies. And so that's a frequent conversation almost. Not almost. Yeah. Most often resolved against criminal prosecution. But there are times when the government decides it makes sense to use criminal tools. Here in this case, the main suspect, which I won't give anything away, but the main suspect is an American citizen. And so the tools of incapacitation are limited to criminal justice system. And so that's when. And the readers will see this in a way that I don't think is boring. See how the criminal justice system grapples with the need to prosecute someone and not give away state secrets.

[Podcast Co-host Anya Cain]

Are there other particularly challenging legal issues

that come about when trying an espionage case, or at least working one?

[James Comey]

The biggest of all is what I just alluded to dominates everything. That is that the need not to sacrifice thoughtlessly the equities of American intelligence services or allied intelligence services. What are we going to give away by needing to provide discovery to a criminal defendant and can we protect. Can we get a judge to help us protect and still ensure the person's rights as a criminal defendant in a way that doesn't make this investigation so costly to the government? There used to be an enormous problem in these cases, spy cases with what's called gray mail, where someone who is charged with being a spy for Foreign Service would essentially say, if you come after me, I'm going to reveal all this stuff that's going to hurt you. I'm going to tell secrets, or you're going to need to reveal secrets in order to get me. And that's why Congress passed a series of statutes that are really sort of used every day now in national security cases to protect information and balance the need to protect information against the defendant's rights. And so if a piece of information is particularly sensitive, the judge could substitute for it to conceal where it came from so the defendant can share a set of facts with the jury. But in doing that, he doesn't say, well, this came from the CIA or this was the result of an NSA intercept. He can you make use of it without being able to damage the security of the United States? And, of course, not being able to graymail the government and then, you know,

[Podcast Co-host Anya Cain]

without giving anything away. But there's, you know, the element of, you know, the possible, you know, possibility of public servants or people who are supposed to be public servants being compromised in some way. And how can that sort of affect matters for. For cases that involve these kind of national security and espionage risks? If you do have someone, perhaps, you know, you don't want to accuse somebody of doing something wrong if they didn't. But, you know, if they're also in a place of power, the effects of that compromising could be very damaging.

[James Comey]

Well, nobody should know this better than the FBI, because famously, early in my career, one of the then Soviet Union's most damaging spies ever was an FBI agent named Robert Hansen who was working in counterintelligence. And so he had access to all kinds of secrets about the very things that he was giving away to the Russians, and so he could protect himself and protect the Russians. And so what you read in a Jean Le Carre is a little flowery, a little flowerier than the way I like to write, but it's real. It's a shadow game where you can't fully trust anyone, and you always have to ask. It's a terrible. It makes for a difficult workplace, because I love you, unless you're a Russian spy. And so I have to assume you're A Russian spy if I'm going to love you enough. And it makes for. It makes the world of counterintelligence a bit of a house of mirrors, even inside the government.

[Podcast Co-host Anya Cain]

And I imagine also there's the, the aspect of it where you might have adversaries, attention, attempt to essentially snitch, jacket someone who's innocent.

[James Comey]

Like.

[Podcast Co-host Anya Cain]

Like there's all sorts of. Yeah, I don't know how anyone could work in that without totally losing their minds.

[James Comey]

Yep.

[Podcast Co-host Anya Cain]

In terms of, you know, one thing we. I mean, espionage is obviously not a stranger to fiction. We see all kinds of depictions of espionage, from the really cartoonish to, you know, stuff that's supposed to be more gritty and down to earth depicted in fiction. What's something, though, about working these real life cases that might surprise people when it comes to espionage? People who may have had their opinions formed by all this fiction about it?

[James Comey]

I think folks will be surprised by how much interaction there is between prosecutors in the Department of Justice and counter espionage investigators, that there's a constant back and forth for two reasons. First, to operate and defeat an intelligence threat in the United States, the FBI has to use lawful tools. And so if the FBI wants to collect someone's communications, you need a court order to do that. Now, you would go to a special foreign intelligence surveillance court to do that, but you still need lawyers to prepare the documents and go in and make the arguments. And so there's a lot of interaction there. But as I said in the toolbox, the FBI's goal is to neutralize counterintelligence threats. And of course, we don't kill people in the United States who are foreign actors. What we need to do is figure out, so how can we best defeat this threat? And one of the most important tools in the toolbox is can we use the criminal justice system to incapacitate them? Even if we plan as happened in the Buryakov case, even if we plan as a government to then trade them for people that the Russians have arrested who are Americans, to get them back. And so there's a lot of interaction during investigations with prosecutors to talk about. So here's how it's going and here's where we might need you. What do you all think you could do on this set of facts? And how much information would be exposed if we went down this path or that path? And again, the Classified Information Procedures act, called sepa, is a really important part of that conversation. Because until the 1980s, there were far fewer conversations with prosecutors because prosecutors couldn't do much for the counterintelligence world without risking exposing secrets.

[Podcast Co-host Host (possibly Kevin or Anya)]

Of course, the book we're talking about is Red Verdict. And I want to stress again how much we both enjoyed it. Anya, as I was reading the opening chapters, she saw me smiling. Just because it was so much fun to see Nora and Benny just in a car talking. And as I was reading it, and I think about your earlier books as well, it occurs to me there are things you do differently than the writers of some other series fiction. For instance, a lot of writers repeat themselves. They write the same book over and over again. And it would been very easy for you to have a series of books where each book Nora takes down a different mobster or something. But in your books it's always a different situation, a different challenge. And I'm curious why you went with that approach.

[James Comey]

Well, the honest answer is probably selfish that I would find it boring to write the same book over and over again. It's a lot of fun for me to identify a different part of the world that I've been in, to show readers, to show it keeps me interested and then to find a different way to tell the story. So to open with the murder in this case, which is unusual, or an earlier book of mine, to kind of do it as a little bit of an Agatha Christie. And I like to mix it up because it keeps me interested. But then the non selfish part is I hope it keeps other folks interested that you know that when you open a book, a Nora Carlton book, you're going to find familiar characters, people you know, people you love, but they're going to be dealing with different challenges and different threats in different ways. And you will, I hope, have fun. And then in the course of having that fun, learn stuff that you wouldn't have learned if you'd read an earlier book. And so that's what you know. As I said, I'm working on the fifth book and I'd like the fifth book to be about something different than you've seen. And so I was a general counsel of the world's largest defense contractor for five years. And then I was in the government roles. I was as you know. And so I thought I could tell kind of a fun spy story with elements of the Defense Industrial Complex and FBI counterintelligence and still have it be Nora and Benny and not have to stretch to do it because that's the way the world really is. And so it keeps me energized and interested.

[Podcast Co-host Host (possibly Kevin or Anya)]

It certainly keeps me interested as well. I think it's a great approach. Another Thing you do is often. I'm not going to name names, but in some series fiction I've read, the main characters are basically unchanged throughout. And in your work, even though the essential nature of them remains the same, they're in different life situations and different things are going on with them. What made you do that?

[James Comey]

Because that's life. I don't know whether it's true for you all, but I get older every year. Not for you. And I watch my grandchildren getting older, my children getting older. I get indicted in a new frivolous case. I mean, who knows? Things change in my life. And so I'm trying to write books that are real. And I've said this to you during earlier conversations about earlier books, but one of my frustrations with a lot of thrillers is authors make stuff up that really doesn't happen in the real world in order to generate excitement and interest. You know, the FBI director's jumping out of a helicopter or something.

[Podcast Co-host Anya Cain]

You didn't do that?

[James Comey]

No, no, no. And so, yeah, never, actually. Never celebrated with the US Hockey team. There's lots of things I've never done before, but it's a. To me, it's part of having books that are real. Nora is getting slightly older each book. Her daughter Sophie, who she calls her ladybug, gets a little older, moves forward in grades. I don't want people stuck. And look, I'm 65, so, you know, I could write 15 more Nora books, and then Nora would be that much older, and then we'd all fade off into the sunset. But to me, it's a way of keeping it true to life and interesting for me, because I love. I mean, these people inhabit me, and so I want them to feel like people who are getting older as I'm getting older, but also, I hope, for the readers.

[Podcast Co-host Host (possibly Kevin or Anya)]

And one more thing that I think is different is that a lot of series characters are brilliant loners who solve all the mysteries on their own. And your characters are brilliant and very smart, but they always function as part of a team. And I'm curious, again, why you chose that approach. And have you found teamwork to be a more realistic reflection of real life?

[James Comey]

Yeah, there are no brilliant loners in the worlds of investigation and prosecution that I've worked in. There are brilliant people. There are some slightly weird introverted people, but you get nothing done against complex adversaries, whether that's in crime or in counterintelligence or counterterrorism, any of those worlds. You need lots of people to help you. And really, the Most important skill is the ability to build relationships as you're an FBI agent, with sources, but also with colleagues, so that you can help each other get the job done. And so I'm just trying to be true to life and show people that's really the way it is. And then I try to have the people, because people are this way. Although they're part of a team, they're different, and they have quirks, they have charming idiosyncrasies, but there are no superhuman brilliant loners in the real world, at least the worlds that I've been in.

[Podcast Co-host Anya Cain]

I'm curious, were there any particular challenges or different aspects about writing Red Verdict versus your other Nora books? I mean, like, you're kind of you're old hand at this, at this point, but at the same time, did this one present anything unique or any different experiences with it?

[James Comey]

As we discussed, I needed to be careful that no amoral prosecutors would try to claim that I had used classified information in the course of the book. So I had to be very careful about that, because sometimes the Trump administration charges innocent people, and so I had to be very careful about that. The second piece was I wanted to show the way things really work in using the criminal justice system to incapacitate, but I. And so that requires some detail about how the Classified Information Procedures act works and how it really goes. And there's some interesting hearsay issues that are created in this case. And I wanted to both have it be real but not be boring. And so I spent a lot of time trying to make sure I'm writing it in a way that moves along but is true to life. And so I had some friends who are experts in the Classified Information Procedures act read it very carefully to make sure I got it right, because I don't want to be boring, but I also don't want pain in the ass. The former Justice Department people saying, aha, he got this wrong. He got this wrong. And so it needs to be right, it needs to be interesting, and it needs to be not giving away anything that's protected information. And so that made it challenging, but also kind of fun to try to piece that together.

[Podcast Co-host Host (possibly Kevin or Anya)]

In the past, you've said another important member of your team is your wife, who's been more of a mystery reader than you. Did she help out with this book as well?

[James Comey]

Oh, of course, as always. And she is great at many, many things, but she helps me keep my characters online. Sometimes my characters will drift when I'm writing drafts to sound like each other, and she helps Me figure out how a family would evolve. Especially as a trained marriage and family therapist, she's very good at thinking through how real people interact. And my protagonist, Nora, is a single mom, and so her daughter, she shares custody with her daughter's father. And so figuring out how to portray that in a real way, I leans so heavily on Patrice. And obviously, as a voracious reader, she also tells me what's interesting and what's fun for readers.

[Podcast Co-host Anya Cain]

Absolutely. I was curious to ask. I think we've asked this in the past, but I'm just curious if it's evolved. What's your writing process like? How many hours are you trying to put in?

Does it vary?

Do you have a routine that you try to stick to?

[James Comey]

I don't have a routine because I never know how much gas I'm going to have in the tank. So when I'm writing drafts, you all know this, but there's lots of stages to a book. So there's the draft writing stage, which will last, I don't know, four or five months for me, and. And then there'll be an iteration stage where I'm. I'm asking friends and family to read it and give me feedback. But that initial writing stage, sometimes I will sit at my computer, starting after breakfast in the morning, and then I'm. I can write. Almost forget to eat lunch because it's flowing out of me, and then it's. It's weird. Then the next day I'll sit down and try and do it. And this. I'm kind of stuck. And so then what I do is I go back and I spend the day changing what I wrote the day before. But I don't have a plan for doing that. I just do it based on what I feel. And so there may be some days where I do three days in a row of just letting it flow out, and then the tank's empty. And then I spend a day or two editing my own work, going back and doing that. And so I think that makes me better because if I had a schedule, I would feel straight jacketed a little bit. Instead, I let this. This mysterious sort of gas in the tank feeling decide what I'm going to do that day. And then there'll be times when I simply need to just take a break. And this is something I didn't fully appreciate, but just going for walks or doing something else entirely different for a couple of days even, and then I come back and I'm better, then I'm able to think about it more effectively and more Creatively, so it's too long an answer. But I don't have a schedule. I write when I can and I stop when I can't.

[Podcast Co-host Host (possibly Kevin or Anya)]

You talk about it flowing out of you. I remember on your sub stack you have a great substack. We talk more about that in a moment. You talked recently about the flow state. What is the flow state? And do you. Do you get into the flow state yourself?

[James Comey]

The flow state is, I understand the way researchers describe it, is a. Is a place that someone doing something that they feel in control of and care a lot about gets lost. That you lose track of time in a very real way. You lose track of self. It's almost. I've never done mushrooms or anything like that, but it's a place where you forget to eat lunch, where you drift away because you're doing something cool, meaningful, that is your thing. And all of a sudden you're in a flow state and you're lost. I've talked about this a lot as a leader, because the best leaders are people who figure out how their folks achieve that and then work to accomplish it by shaping the physical environment at work. The schedule, the people, the sounds, the music, the coffee, whatever it is to help your people get to a place like that. And that happens to me, writing, and it always has. Even when I was in high school, I loved to write. And now, because I type quickly, because I took that typing class from a coach I was trying to suck up to in high school, the only thing that worked about it was I learned to type well. It didn't help my pathetic athletic career, but I type very quickly and without need to look at the keyboard. And so I will find something flowing out of my fingers and I will be so into it. I'm with Benny. I'm in the car. I can feel him, I can hear him, and I'm writing him. And I'll look up and the sun's going down. And that's a flow state. And that can often be incompatible with healthy family relationships. But it's a wonderful thing to find work to do that allows you to achieve those states. And so that's what I mean by flow. And it happens to me.

[Podcast Co-host Anya Cain]

That is incredible. Also, I'm sorry, I think the headline is James Comey. I've never done mushrooms,

[James Comey]

right? I used to find. I've never smoked pot. And. And that used to cause me problems when I would get background investigations done, because they'd say, no, seriously, you can tell us. It's not a big deal. I would say, actually Never smoke pot. And, and my kids often I say to them, you know, I really do want to. I want to try marijuana, but I can't try it until it's legal federally, because I really don't need to walk into another prosecution by the Trump Justice Department. No, don't.

[Podcast Co-host Anya Cain]

Don't do it.

[James Comey]

So no pot for me for now.

[Podcast Co-host Host (possibly Kevin or Anya)]

After everybody orders and reads Red Verdict, they really should check out your substack because you post a lot of videos there that have a lot of interesting things to say. I think in the very same video where you talked about the flow state, you talked about motivation and people who are motivated by money. And I thought you had some interesting observations about that. Can you share with us your thoughts about people who are motivated by money?

[James Comey]

Yeah, I. Growing up, I didn't know rich people, and so a lot of my experience with people who seek money as an end in itself has come later in my life. But I've discovered what I hope everybody already knows, that it's a bottomless pit, that if money is your motivation, you will never have enough and you will never find fulfillment. Same with fame. If fame and being loved by strangers is your motivation, it can never stop because you will never have as much as you want and it will drift away from you. And so, in my experience, both in my life and in reading a lot about this, the most effective people, the happiest people, are those who tether themselves not to an external goal like I want to be famous or I want money, but the meaning comes from within, that what they value is a certain kind of work, a certain set of relationships. They are people for whom money matters, obviously, because we all need to eat. But the difference in the Daniel Pink's book drive that I talked about on my sub stack is that obviously people who are motivated intrinsically are not going to leave money on the table. When someone offers them something for work that they're going to do, they're going to take the money. But for the extrinsically motivated, money is the table. It is everything. And that's a path to misery. And you see that obviously, most prominently in our current president, for whom the hunger for affirmation is a bottomless pit in a way. Kind of sad, but yeah, that's my experience. And I told in the substack a story that my dad told us at the dinner table when I was a kid in New Jersey, he was invited to attend a lunch with senior people, I think bored people and leaders of this big company that he worked at where he was A middle manager, and they ignored him. So he just got to watch. And he told us part of what he saw, which was these people started talking about how much they have, about the assets they own and the houses and the boats. And then one looked at the other and said, not ironically, said, you know, you can never have enough. And. And then my dad, also, my dad was a very funny person, said, yeah. Then I watched the son of a bitch give 2 quarters to the valet, 50 cents to get his car. So as I said on my substack, I guess he concluded that the valet could have enough and the 50 cents was enough. But my dad was. And what was cool about my dad is he didn't then say, here's why I'm telling you this story. But the story stayed with me both, because as I got older, I found it a little bit. I could see more clearly as an adult that it was a little bit humiliating to my father that they treated him this way. But it was a lesson for all of us that meaning and purpose and happiness does not lie in that direction, that money's important, but it lies in other directions that are closer to who you are as a person and the people close to you. Yeah. So I do substacks. Every. Every Sunday, just before noon, I post one, try and keep them five minutes or shorter. They're free and they will always be free. Two weeks ago, I had one sponsored by Red Verdict, which was kind of a funny thing because it's my book, but I said to the viewers, look, I don't charge for these substacks. And we never have sponsors except today, sponsored by Red Verdict. And I'm just trying to be funny, but also sell some books because that's my job. And. And so I'll just keep doing them. I'm doing them because Patrice makes me. And she said, look, there are people for whom you can be useful during this time. There are a lot of people for whom the actions of the Trump administration darken their world. And maybe you can be useful to them in talking about how you see the world and why you think we're going to be okay. And so I'm going to keep doing that. I'm going to try and get her to substitute for me at some points because she's making me. But so I've done 50 videos so far, and we'll press on.

[Podcast Co-host Host (possibly Kevin or Anya)]

I think there's a lot of terrific content there. So I'm glad she's making you do it.

[Podcast Co-host Anya Cain]

Yeah, keep making him.

[Podcast Co-host Host (possibly Kevin or Anya)]

And I think it's worth noting it's not just about Trump. Because I think even in one recent video, you said, I don't want to just be here complaining about Trump. There's other things to talk about. I don't want to be repetitive. You make complaints against him and talk about that when it's relevant. But you also talk about. There's a lot of really useful, practical things in those videos. And one of my favorites, you talked about ways to improve your oral communication, and you listed a few things, one of which was your mother. Can you talk about how your mother and by your mother. All of our mothers.

[James Comey]

Yeah.

[Podcast Co-host Host (possibly Kevin or Anya)]

How that can help us communicate better?

[James Comey]

Yeah. Happy, too. One of my great frustrations in all of these different environments that I've worked in, chock full of smart people, is how many smart people communicate differently with an audience that needs to understand them than they would communicate if they were just talking to their mom. Lawyers use Latin, for God's sakes. At a Lockheed Martin, people would speak in acronyms, just spewing acronyms that only us, an elite audience, would understand. Talk in all kinds of ways that you wouldn't normally speak. And so my advice is, your goal is to get something you know into the heads of other people. If your mom had the ability to listen to anything you do, you would look her in the eye. You wouldn't use all kinds of notes, you wouldn't turn and read off a PowerPoint chart. You wouldn't use Latin or acronyms. You would speak plainly. You would speak in an interesting way. You would use your voice with inflection or whatnot, because she loves you, but she doesn't have all day, so what's going on? And you would then be quiet and take her questions. For some reason, especially in elite environments, many of us are afraid that if we acted that way, it would somehow be beneath us and a confession of weakness, when in fact, it would be a demonstration of great strength and ability. So my advice to especially lawyers is speak to a jury, to a judge, to anyone you talk to. Like your mom. You don't condescend to your mother. So there's no risk of that plainly, openly, and in a way that holds her attention. And so that's the mother rule.

[Podcast Co-host Host (possibly Kevin or Anya)]

That's great advice. And again, I encourage people to subscribe to the podcast or the substack. Pardon me. And I'm grateful to Patrisse for making you do that. We've kind of been dancing around the elephant in the room that you've kind of made a couple of references to, which is you're working on the next book. What's it about? Can you give us any hints?

[James Comey]

I don't want to give too many hints because I haven't given it to my publisher yet. But I'd like to have. I'd like to take people inside policing in a way that I haven't before. I've stayed at FBI, counterintelligence, criminal, that sort of thing. But I've also had a lot of contact with police organizations and police operations. And so that's one thing I'd like to do. And the second thing I'd like to do is I spent nine years living in Richmond, Virginia, and I was a prosecutor there. I worked a lot with the Richmond police. And so I'd like to situate a story there. I'd like to take Nora to Richmond and show people a different world that I know with a really cool, interesting history, challenging book to write. Because Richmond, anytime you talk about policing in Richmond, you've got a racial history that you have to own. But I think I can write about that in a way that will be interesting for people and useful and accurate and. And so that's what I'd like to do next. I could imagine. Yeah, I don't know how we were to go from there, but I could imagine Nora then going back to New York or at some point. I know I need to bring Nora to Washington. It's still a little too icky for me to have her there full time. But in Red Verdict, I bring her there a little bit, and I can predict a future where we will be back there in a time where I feel the country's a little bit healthier.

[Podcast Co-host Anya Cain]

You're forgetting Williamsburg. I mean, what. What. What sinister goings on are going on at Colonial Williamsburg that they can investigate? Camp Perry is like right around there.

[James Comey]

We'll get there. Well, and you know, you know this. Cause you and I talked about it, but I had a murder in Williamsburg or a guy who just ate a cheese shop sandwich in FDR Drive. And so, yes, I'd like to go back to crime ridden Williamsburg, Virginia.

[Podcast Co-host Anya Cain]

Crime ridden. Very dangerous, very scary place. It's perfect for you. And I love that scene. And so I appreciate you put. Putting it in. I was like, this one's written for me. So I was.

[Podcast Co-host Host (possibly Kevin or Anya)]

Yes, it is.

[Podcast Co-host Anya Cain]

It's great. No, I. I'm very excited to see her. Richmond's a really cool city, so I think that'll be really very interesting to see her in a different spot, you know, before we close out. You know, we do want to ask, you know, without really going into any thing in detail about what's going on, just like, how are, how are you doing? Are you doing okay?

[James Comey]

I am. And this, this is going to sound like I'm making a joke, but I'm not really. The first time you get indicted when you're innocent, it's off putting and a little bit disorienting. The second time, honestly, less so because I've been through this before and I know what their mission is. If there's the next time, I suspect it'll be even less off putting. But it's not about the cases. It's about sending a message. And it's really important that I. But maybe more important than that, the rest of us not let that message affect us. We have a rock solid set of values in this country. The Department of Justice has always stood for those values and will again. And we seem to make sure we don't become numb to the destruction of those values right now.

[Podcast Co-host Anya Cain]

And what are your thoughts on with all this going on, like the future of our country and, you know, the United States of America and American law and jurisprudence around this stuff?

[James Comey]

I am deeply optimistic because I think what's happening now is unbelievably painful and not, not, I'm not talking about my case, talking about all the things that are happening, deeply painful, deeply disturbing and are setting us up for one of the most extraordinary U turns in American history that I think we are going to see an unleashing of interest, concern and action to reinforce our values that we haven't seen a long time, maybe since the Progressive Era, at the end of the Gilded Age in the early 1900s, interestingly enough, another time that historians say we were extraordinarily polarized in the 1890s and then the fever broke and we change the country. I think that's coming again in a good way. And we'll make all kinds of mistakes because we're people and then we'll have to fix those. But yeah, I'm deeply optimistic because not just because I see the polling. I think the giant has awakened. People who normally don't pay attention, are paying attention. I think you're going to see a really an extraordinary wave in the midterm elections. And then we all just need to survive the final 24 months of Donald Trump. And then I think you will see talented people of all ages, but especially the young, hungry to get back into public service, hungry to restore that which was burned and to improve it. I think the effort to rebuild the Justice Department is incredibly exciting. I mean, really cool things happen in the wake of a forest fire. You wouldn't wish the forest fire in anybody. But one of the few blessings of a forest fire is new things can grow. I think we're going to see that in this country. And part of what consoles me is I know how screwed up America has been throughout its history. I always describe us as. Our graph is a solid, upward sloping line, except if you look at it closely, it's a jagged line. We make progress, we retreat. We make progress, we retreat. That's our story. And I'm also old enough to know how just unbelievably violent and screwed up our life was when I was a kid in the 1960s. And so America will hold. In one of my substacks, I talked about Alexis de Tocqueville and how he traveled and wrote about us in 1825. You read that today. It's kind of us. We haven't really changed. We're contradictory, we're infuriating, we're messy. We care about religion, but we don't want religion running government. We care about community. We want to be left alone. We want strong government, but we don't want any kings. It's us and all of our flaws. And it's just too hard to change a culture. And that can be frustrating when you're trying to change it in a way that you think is beneficial. But it's a consolation. Today we're going to be okay. We have been through nightmares like this before, and it will be the impetus for great change and improvement.

[Podcast Co-host Anya Cain]

I love. I love it. We kind of breezed through all our questions. Is there anything we didn't ask you about that you wanted to mention or you think it's important to know about the book? About anything.

[James Comey]

Maybe the combination of the dedication and the acknowledgments in both of them. I'm thinking about my daughter. Obviously fired because her last name was the same as mine, but many, many others who are forced out. And they're the people to whom I've dedicated the book. And also saying the acknowledgments that Nora and Benny are fictional characters, but they are. They are the people I knew doing this work, flawed in all kinds of ways, but fundamentally, people trying to do the right thing for the right reason. They represent the best of these institutions, and we should never forget that and want to make sure that those people that we protect them, we nurture them, and we encourage them to return to service because we're going to need them.

[Podcast Co-host Host (possibly Kevin or Anya)]

Again, well said.

[Podcast Co-host Anya Cain]

Amen. Well, thank you so much.

[James Comey]

It's great to see you guys.

[Podcast Co-host Host (possibly Kevin or Anya)]

Great to see you and thank you again for doing this in this crazy week.

[James Comey]

Yeah. And who knows what'll be going on next, next May.

[Podcast Co-host Host (possibly Kevin or Anya)]

Yeah, you never know.

[James Comey]

You'll be like. Mr. Comey, your sixth indictment. The first five are dismissed. How do you feel about sixth indictment? Same as before.

[Podcast Co-host Kevin Greenlee]

We really appreciate James Comey taking the time to speak with us this week,

[Podcast Co-host Host (possibly Kevin or Anya)]

especially since it was, as we all

[Podcast Co-host Kevin Greenlee]

know, a very busy week for him. As we noted, this interview happened just a couple of days after this indictment occurred. And so it's amazing that he took the time to speak with us. We really appreciate it.

[Podcast Co-host Anya Cain]

We really appreciate it and we really encourage everybody to get his book. It's a great read. We really enjoyed Red Verdict. We we'll be including links to it in our show notes and encourage everyone to read it and support him.

[Podcast Co-host Kevin Greenlee]

Thanks so much for listening to the Murder Sheet. If you have a tip concerning one of the cases we cover, please email [e-mail] if you have actionable information about an unsolved crime, please report it to the appropriate authorities.

[Podcast Co-host Anya Cain]

If you're interested in joining our Patreon, that's available at www.patreon.com murdersheet. If you want to tip us a bit of money for records requests, you can do so at www. Buymeacoffee.com murdersheet. We very much appreciate any support.

[Podcast Co-host Kevin Greenlee]

Special thanks to Kevin Tyler Greenlee, who composed the music for the Murder Sheet and who you can find on the web@Kevin TG.com if you're looking to talk

[Podcast Co-host Anya Cain]

with other listeners about a case we've

covered, you can join the Murder Sheet Discussion group on Facebook. We mostly focus our time on research and reporting, so we're not on social media much. We do try to check our email account, but we ask for patience as

we often receive a lot of messages. Thanks again for listening.