Law School Basics

Summary

Murder Sheet Podcast: "Law School Basics" – Detailed Summary

Release Date: July 17, 2025

Hosts:

• Áine Cain – Journalist
• Kevin Greenlee – Attorney

---

1. Introduction to Law School Basics

Timestamp: [03:50] - [05:08]

In the episode titled "Law School Basics," hosts Áine Cain and Kevin Greenlee delve into the realities of attending law school. They address common misconceptions and provide firsthand insights into what prospective students can expect.

Kevin Greenlee initiates the discussion by highlighting a prevalent misconception:

"Law school doesn't really prepare you for what it's like to actually be a lawyer in terms of a day-to-day sort of situation."
– [05:50]

---

2. Perceptions vs. Reality of Law School

Timestamp: [05:29] - [08:24]

The hosts explore the intimidating image law school often holds, influenced heavily by popular culture portrayals such as the movie "The Paper Chase." Kevin shares his personal experience, dispelling the notion that law school is as cutthroat and academically devastating as depicted.

"I don't really feel it is as super intimidating as it is often portrayed."
– [06:46]

Áine Cain concurs, emphasizing the frustration students feel when the educational environment doesn't align with real-world applications.

---

3. Personal Experiences and Valuable Advice

Timestamp: [07:33] - [11:27]

Kevin recounts invaluable advice from his law professor, Gene Shreve:

"If you've made it to law school, you've got something going for yourself... you don't really have to change anything. Just keep the course, be yourself."
– [07:33]

This counsel resonates with Áine, who discusses embracing personal work habits and avoiding unnecessary stress to maintain mental well-being.

Further, Kevin shares wisdom from a successful lawyer mentor:

"If you work like a dog, there's a good chance you'd end up with, like, an A minus... You can just show up irregular hours and lead your regular life, and you’ll probably end up with, like, a B."
– [09:22]

Áine and Kevin agree that striving for perfection can lead to burnout, advocating for a balanced approach to law school and professional life.

---

4. Learning Through Cases: An Engaging Approach

Timestamp: [09:22] - [15:12]

The discussion shifts to the core of legal education: case studies. Kevin explains how law schools use complex and sometimes bizarre cases to teach legal principles, making them easier to remember and understand.

Using a hypothetical contract breach example, Kevin illustrates the principle of mitigation of damages:

"Once someone violates a contract with you... you don't get to just add more and more damages in order to get more money out of them."
– [14:45]

Áine adds practical insights, emphasizing that legal outcomes often aim to restore parties to their original positions post-breach, rather than providing excessive compensation.

They also delve into tort law with the "Palsgraph case," examining the necessity of duty of care in civil suits. Through engaging hypotheticals, they demonstrate how nuanced and interconnected legal scenarios can be.

---

5. The Stress of Law School Exams

Timestamp: [27:09] - [38:28]

A significant portion of the episode addresses the high-pressure environment of law school examinations. Kevin describes how grades are typically based solely on final exams, which are comprehensive and require students to apply learned principles to new, complex cases without prior graded assessments.

"It's stressful because usually in classes in college, you're doing tests and getting graded work back all throughout the semester... but in law school you don't, because you're not getting really graded until the very end."
– [38:19]

Áine and Kevin discuss the added pressure of open-book exams that emulate real-life legal scenarios, requiring deep understanding and quick thinking.

---

6. Practical Skills vs. Theoretical Learning

Timestamp: [39:06] - [45:57]

The hosts critique the law school curriculum for its heavy emphasis on theoretical knowledge over practical skills. They argue that while understanding legal principles is essential, law schools often neglect teaching concrete skills like depositions or court appearances.

Kevin Greenlee states:

"But law school doesn't really tell you, here's how you do a deposition or how you file an appearance with a court or things of that nature."
– [15:09]

Áine raises the point that this gap can leave new lawyers unprepared for real-world demands, suggesting the need for curricular reforms that incorporate practical training alongside theoretical studies.

---

7. Recommendations for Prospective Law Students

Timestamp: [43:04] - [48:11]

Addressing listeners who may be contemplating law school, Áine and Kevin offer pragmatic advice. They underscore the financial burden, noting the significant debt many students incur, which may influence career choices post-graduation.

"It's very expensive. You have to go into significant debt in order to do it."
– [44:11]

They recommend prospective students engage with current law professionals to gain a realistic understanding of the profession and its demands. Additionally, they highlight the importance of mental resilience and adaptability in navigating law school challenges.

---

8. Conclusion and Final Thoughts

Timestamp: [48:11] - [49:36]

In wrapping up, the hosts emphasize the necessity of a strong foundational understanding of legal principles, while advocating for broader practical training to better prepare students for their careers. They encourage listeners to reach out with questions and consider the multifaceted nature of legal education before committing to law school.

---

Notable Quotes with Timestamps

• Kevin Greenlee on Law School Preparation:
  "Law school doesn't really prepare you for what it's like to actually be a lawyer in terms of a day-to-day sort of situation."
  – [05:50]

• Gene Shreve (Law Professor) on Staying True to Oneself:
  "If you've made it to law school, you've got something going for yourself... you don't really have to change anything. Just keep the course, be yourself."
  – [07:33]

• Kevin Greenlee on Work Ethic and Burnout:
  "If you work like a dog, there's a good chance you'd end up with, like, an A minus... You can just show up irregular hours and lead your regular life, and you’ll probably end up with, like, a B."
  – [09:22]

• Kevin Greenlee on Exam Stress:
  "It's stressful because usually in classes in college, you're doing tests and getting graded work back all throughout the semester... but in law school you don't, because you're not getting really graded until the very end."
  – [38:19]

• Kevin Greenlee on Curricular Gaps:
  "But law school doesn't really tell you, here's how you do a deposition or how you file an appearance with a court or things of that nature."
  – [15:09]

---

Key Takeaways

• Law School Realities: Law school is often less cutthroat than portrayed but comes with its unique stresses, notably the heavy reliance on final exams.

• Theoretical vs. Practical Knowledge: While law schools effectively teach legal principles through case studies, there's a notable gap in practical skill training essential for day-to-day legal practice.

• Work-Life Balance: Maintaining personal authenticity and a balanced work ethic is crucial to prevent burnout during law school and beyond.

• Financial Considerations: Prospective law students should carefully consider the financial implications, including significant debt and its impact on career choices.

• Recommendations: Engage with current legal professionals, seek mentorship, and consider curricular reforms advocating for a blend of theoretical and practical education.

---

This comprehensive summary encapsulates the essence of the "Law School Basics" episode, providing listeners and non-listeners alike with a clear understanding of the discussions and insights shared by Áine Cain and Kevin Greenlee.

Transcript

[Kevin Greenlee]

Having a hormonal imbalance can make you feel like you've landed in a baffling mystery story, only one with no ending.

[Anya Cain]

You feel bad, you feel off, and it feels like there's nothing you can do to fix it. It's unbelievably frustrating.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Well, our sponsor Happy Mammoth is on the case. They are a natural wellness brand that can help you maintain your own optimal hormone levels. They focus on products that lead to hormonal happiness as well as ones that improve your gut health.

[Anya Cain]

See, we all encounter hormone disruptors throughout the day in our food, in the air and even in skincare products. All of that saps away at our quality of life. Frankly. Fight back by taking Happy Mammoth's quick two minute quiz. They'll send you tailor made solutions and recommendations about products that can help you. I personally love taking their Hormone Harmony supplements which are for women at all stages of life. Ever since I started taking them, I feel my gut health and random cravings have really improved.

[Kevin Greenlee]

For women who are in menopause or perimenopause, those Hormone Harmony supplements can help reduce mild mood swings and hot flashes, give you more energy and help you get to sleep.

[Anya Cain]

For a limited time. You can get 15% off your entire first order. At happymammoth.com, just use the code msheet at checkout. That's happymammoth.com and use the code msheet for 15% off today. This summer, try something new and fun. Try our wonderful sponsor, Hometown Hero. This is a company that is all about having fun and giving back. Hometown Hero sells premium hemp products all the while supporting veterans. Founder Lucas Gilke, a US Veteran himself, saw firsthand how trauma can impact our veterans. So a portion of Hometown Hero's profits go toward organizations that support veterans.

[Kevin Greenlee]

They've got an enormous and diverse selection. Gummies, drink mixes, infused chocolates. Hometown Hero also has some wonderful calming CBD treats for your puppy as well as balanced THC and CBD gummies in delicious flavors like strawberry, mango and pineapple. Something for everyone. Regardless of your experience with thc, Hometown.

[Anya Cain]

Hero focuses on quality first and foremost. Their hemp is grown in Texas so you know exactly what you're getting with your inhalables and tinctures. The products are all made at a GMP certified facility and third party lab tested to maintain their strict standards. Most of their products feature live rosin which which is a cannabis concentrate extracted using only heat and pressure. That's basically the cold pressed juice of the cannabis world. Super pure, no solvents Order today and get your products delivered in discreet packaging straight to your door.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Reclaim your evening. Visit hometownhero.com and use code msheet to take 20% off your first purchase. That's hometownhero.com code msheet for 20% off your first purchase. Summer is getting hot. If you're like us, your wardrobe is stocked full of sweaters for the cold months. You need a refresh to get some lightweight, breathable pieces to beat the heat. Time to go shopping at Quint's.

[Anya Cain]

Quint's is a wonderful sponsor of ours. They sell all kinds of luxury items at a fraction of the price of their competitors. Order today and get your pieces fast. They'll have you looking awesome. For the summer of 2025, I got.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Their 100% European linen utility shirt in Martini olive it. It's an elevated version of the kind of shirts I'm used to wearing, only it feels better. Made with a more luxurious and comfortable fabric, the linen is lightweight and perfect for the hot summer months. Best of all, Anya thinks I look cute in it. And she assures me that that is the most important thing.

[Anya Cain]

It is and he does. All Quint's items are going to be 50% to 80% less costly than those of their competitors. Half the price. You're getting a great deal. Plus Murder Sheet listeners are going to get an even more special bonus. Give your summer closet an upgrade with quints. Go to quince.commsheet for free shipping on your order and 365 day returns. That's Q U I N C E.commsheet to get free shipping and 365 day returns.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Quince.commsheet so Anya, one thing we get a lot of questions about is what is law school like? And I think one of the things that people don't really understand or appreciate about law school and one thing that frankly confuses me about law school is law school doesn't really prepare you for what it's like to actually be a lawyer in terms of a day to day sort of situation. Law school doesn't like really teach you. Here's how you do a deposition or things of that nature, which is how does that strike you?

[Anya Cain]

That strikes me as a lot of money to not be prepared for your chosen profession. Be blunt.

[Kevin Greenlee]

I appreciate you being blunt. So yeah, that's a complaint that new lawyers often make is, well, this didn't really prepare me for the day to day. So what does it do? Why is it important? Let's talk about it.

[Anya Cain]

My name is Anya Cain. I'm a journalist.

[Kevin Greenlee]

And I'm Kevin Greenlee. I'm an attorney.

[Anya Cain]

And this is the Murder Sheet.

[Kevin Greenlee]

We're a true crime podcast focused on original reporting, interviews, and deep dives into murder cases.

[Anya Cain]

We're the Murder Sheet.

[Kevin Greenlee]

And this is Law School Basics.

[Anya Cain]

Sam.

[Kevin Greenlee]

I think one thing that's important to mention right off the bat about law school is that it can be intimidating, especially as a first year student. There's certainly a lot of portrayal of law school in popular culture is being like, really cutthroat, really, really intellectually devastating and crushing. And there are things like a movie which I've never seen called the Paper Chase, which supposedly has like, a really tough professor who, like, is humiliating his students and stuff. See, the reason I didn't see that is before I go to law school, why would I want to see that and say, oh, my God. And then after I go to law school, I've already been through it, I'm happy to move on.

[Anya Cain]

Right, that makes sense.

[Kevin Greenlee]

I don't really feel it is as super intimidating as it is often portrayed. As I remember, there's an old story where you'd go to law school on your first day. They would say, look to the person on your right, look to the person on your left. One of the three of you won't be here in a few years.

[Anya Cain]

Did they do that to you guys?

[Kevin Greenlee]

No, they didn't. But because of that, I want to share the two best pieces of advice I got when I went into law school. And I think these bits of advice are so good that I feel they also apply to life in general outside of law school.

[Anya Cain]

Oh, wow.

[Kevin Greenlee]

One is, there was a law professor and I was with a group and people were asking him, what should we do? How should we prepare? What should we change in order to get through this awful process? And what he told us was, if you've made it to law school, you've got something going for yourself. You know what you're doing and what you're doing and how you do it probably works for you. And so you don't really have to change anything. Just keep the course, be yourself. Yes. I feel in life, sometimes when you. You go to a new challenge, you make yourself think you have to change and you have to develop completely new habits and make a new you in order to succeed. And I don't think that's true.

[Anya Cain]

Yeah, I remember you helped me out with that a little bit. I have certain quirks or whatnot that I do when I'm Working, essentially, you know, and. And. And I feel like you helped me see that as that's how you work. It's not something that needs to be corrected, you know, like. Like, for an instance, I might, you know, in between working, I might take a little break or watch, you know, watch something, or you want to go do something. And I always felt bad about that because it's like, no, I should be back to working. And you're like, if that's a part of your process or, you know, I. I'm the kind of person where I'm weird. I need to listen to music when I'm writing or scripting or doing something. Like, I. I really. That's important to me. I don't know why, but again, I would feel bad about that or like, I should just be able to do this, whatever, and you kind of help me understand. No, if it's working for you, just do it. As long as it's not harmful and making you fall apart. If it's working, don't try to fix it, because it's not what works for everyone.

[Kevin Greenlee]

And it was because of this advice I got from this man. I'll name him Law Professor Gene Shreve. He taught civil procedure. I think that's great advice. The other piece of advice I want to mention, I won't name who said it, but the person who I got this advice from was a law student a year or two ahead of me, and he currently is a very successful lawyer in the Indianapolis area with a top firm. Also does practices, I think, sometimes in Chicago and other towns. Very, very successful man. And what he said is, when you go to law school, if you want, you can work like a dog, like 16, 17 hours a day, doing nothing but focusing on the law and just studying as hard as you can and just be really, really intense. And he said if you do that, there's a good chance you'd end up with, like, an A minus. Or he said, you can just show up at school irregular hours, work really hard during the workday at school, and go home and just lead your regular life, and you'll probably end up with, like, a B. And so what I took from that is the benefit of driving yourself crazy with an insane work ethic isn't really going to benefit you that much in the end.

[Anya Cain]

Why are you attacking me right now on the show called out by my own husband and co host, Kevin Greenlee?

[Kevin Greenlee]

I think that's terrific advice.

[Anya Cain]

I think it is, too. I think there's an element of me and an element of a lot of people where it's like, maybe a bit of a perfectionist, maybe a bit of a control freak, and you want to manage everything. But if the. If the benefit is that marginal and the utility is that marginal, maybe it's better off just having a better, a fuller, richer life.

[Kevin Greenlee]

And that's certainly. That advice certainly made my law school experience much happier.

[Anya Cain]

Yeah, that's great. I mean, both of those things are pretty applicable to life, so I agree.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Yeah. Don't kill yourself working very hard to make your work just a little bit better.

[Anya Cain]

Yeah, it's. And also, like, there might be instances where you do want to kill yourself and, like, kind of make it perfect. But. But if you're doing that for everything, you're probably just going to burn out.

[Kevin Greenlee]

You're definitely going to burn out. So then in law school, what you do is you learn about the principles of law, and you do that by looking at cases. So what does that mean? What that means is, if you listen to this program, often when we're talking about a principle of law, either Anya or I, maybe usually me, will come up with some crazy example like, oh, Anya stole all this cereal, and there was these witnesses, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And the point of that is, if you make it kind of an extreme example with really broad points, it can be easier to remember and understand. And that's basically what we mean when we talk about learning the law through looking at cases, because the people who put the textbooks together will try to find crazy stories and crazy cases that will stick in your mind, and so that even years later, you will remember the facts of the case, which help you understand the point that it's trying to illustrate about the law. And I'll just give you a quick example. If I were to tell you, Anya. Well, you know, Anya, if a person breaches a contract, the person who has had their contract breached still has a duty to mitigate damages. I mean, what does that mean?

[Anya Cain]

I fell asleep halfway through that sentence.

[Kevin Greenlee]

So let me tell you about this bridge.

[Anya Cain]

Let's go over the bridge.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Let's talk about this bridge. Anya. So way, way back, long, long time ago, back in the 1920s, there was this bridge company that signed an agreement with the county to build a bridge. And the county made the deal with them. Everything was fine. They're going to pay them, I think, 19 or $20,000, because it was a long time ago. And I think the company would have ended up with a profit of about $2,000. And then relatively early on in the process, the county says, well, we signed this contract with you, we're not going to honor it. Let, let's just forget about this whole bridge business. You know what the bridge company did? They went ahead and built the bridge.

[Anya Cain]

Oh, no.

[Kevin Greenlee]

And then they said, guess what? You've got to honor the contract. Okay, so what do you think? Do you think the bridge company then is able to collect the full terms? No, because of the, the premise of mitigation of damages. Once someone violates a contract with you and they breach the contract, you. You don't get to just add more and more damages in order to get more money out of them.

[Anya Cain]

Yeah, that doesn't make any sense. No, I mean, it's a jerk move by the county, but like at that point you cut your losses and you go after them for whatever you are owed. You don't just say, well, I'm going to passive aggressively build the whole bridge and then expect to collect because they already told you that's not going to happen.

[Kevin Greenlee]

They already told you that was. That's not going to happen.

[Anya Cain]

So, but like you can still get something from it, but just not, you know, that's, that's passive aggressive.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Isn't wild.

[Anya Cain]

That's wild.

[Kevin Greenlee]

There's something in contract law you're supposed to, if someone makes an agreement with you and they breach it, you're supposed to end up where you would have ended up had they not breached, which means that they would entitle to the profit they would have gotten and whatever cost of materials or whatever they'd already done. So that is an easier way to illustrate mitigation of damages.

[Anya Cain]

Yeah, it is. And it's much more interesting than just saying, you know, the thing.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Sometimes we mess up technology.

[Anya Cain]

On this podcast, one time, if anyone remembers this, we made a reference to a train whistle but accidentally edited out the train whistle sound so nobody knew what we were talking about.

[Kevin Greenlee]

I have not recovered from that.

[Anya Cain]

I don't think I ever will.

[Kevin Greenlee]

So we love when we find tech and apps that we can really use without worrying about messing up. We recently started using one app that's so good, so intuitive, so user friendly.

[Anya Cain]

That it's us Proof that app is Cash App.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Setting this up was easy and fast. We were able to get started using it right away. It's such a convenient app for making payments.

[Anya Cain]

It also makes payments personal and fun. I love that you can customize payments with text and stamps and backgrounds. It's really cute.

[Kevin Greenlee]

If you're not using Cash App yet, download it from your phone's app store. Sign up. Enter our code msheet in your profile. Send $5 to your friend and you'll get $10 just for getting started.

[Anya Cain]

No extra hoops. Easy setup. Lots of security measures to protect you and your money from all kinds of heists. Not that I would know anything about that, but seriously, Cash app even flags it. If you might be sending money to a scammer, they are really looking out for you in our minds. Other digital wallet type things don't come.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Close for a limited time only new cash app users can use our exclusive code to earn some additional cash. For real? There's no catch. Just download cash app and sign up. Use our exclusive referral code msheet in your profile. Send $5 to a friend within 14 days and you'll get $10 dropped right into your account. Terms apply. That's money. That's Cash app. The world's a scary place. We all know that from listening to true crime. Your home should feel safe. But unfortunately, many home security systems are purely reactive. They just let you know when someone's breaking in. Now, if you've ever had a break in, you know that it is such a violating and upsetting experience just knowing that someone was in your space.

[Anya Cain]

We use SimpliSafe, our sponsor, for our home security system. That's a system that goes the extra mile to protect you. Simplisafe's new active guard outdoor protection helps stop break ins before they even happen. Think about that. They're not reactive. They're proactive and they're here for you.

[Kevin Greenlee]

We have used Simplisafe for years and there's one reason for that. We believe in the company and the product. We trust the SimpliSafe team to protect our home. We know that its live monitoring agents are on hand to detect possible suspicious activity around our property. If you're interested, just know that we recommend it. It's terrific for renters and homeowners alike. With no contracts, no hidden fees, and flexible monitoring plans that start around a.

[Anya Cain]

Dollar a day, visit SimpliSafe.com msheet to claim 50% off a new system with a professional monitoring plan and get your first month free. That's simplisafe.commsheet there's no safe like SimpliSafe.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Why don't I give you a couple of more?

[Anya Cain]

Oh, do it. Yeah. These are wild.

[Kevin Greenlee]

This is a tort case. This is.

[Anya Cain]

What's a tort case?

[Kevin Greenlee]

It's like a civil suit where someone like, wrongs you. Like if someone libels you or someone like this you can take him to court. Kind of like a personal injury sort of situation. So here is a bizarre case. A person is rushing to get on a subway train, and they have a package in their hand. Unbeknownst to presumably everybody except for that person. This package contains some kind of fireworks. The person is trying to get on the train, barely makes it. And as he's getting on the train, one of the subway workers gives him a shove to make sure he's all the way on the train. And as a result of that shove, Anya, the package is dropped. The fireworks go off. Oh, no. Inside the subway station. This creates a clamor and things are like shaking and stuff. And so a few feet or something away from this, there is some sort of scales in the, in the subway station which, like, fall. And because of the fall of the scales, a woman who is standing near these scales, she gets some injuries which she clearly suffered as a result of the explosion. Which she clearly suffered the explosion because of. The subway worker gave this guy a push. Who can this woman sue?

[Anya Cain]

I honestly don't know.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Give me your gut. You have a feeling of justice?

[Anya Cain]

I do have a feeling of justice, I guess.

[Kevin Greenlee]

But her injuries would not have happened, I guess.

[Anya Cain]

The railway.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Tell me your thinking.

[Anya Cain]

The subway worker pushed the guy.

[Kevin Greenlee]

So you believe this guy pushed the guy and because of that this happened?

[Anya Cain]

I don't think it's against the law. Right. To like, transport, I mean, I guess, like, is it against the law to transport the fireworks?

[Kevin Greenlee]

You know, like, that's not even an issue. Yeah, let's just. People, don't you want to live in a society where people can take fireworks on the subway? I do.

[Anya Cain]

I know you.

[Kevin Greenlee]

But then again, I grew up in Indiana.

[Anya Cain]

You did grow up in Indiana. It's a big fireworks culture, I would say. I would say my, my instinct would be if you're going to sue anyone, the railway had a worker that behaved in kind of a reckless manner there. You shouldn't be shoving people that had sparked off all this. But honestly, it's very confusing because there's so many elements to it.

[Kevin Greenlee]

There's a lot of elements to it. So you think it's okay that even though there's no relationship between this subway worker and this, this woman, what if you're walking down the street in one of your well known, well known Easter bonnets and some other woman says, oh my God, Anya looks so good in that bonnet, I feel worse about myself. Should she be able to sue you?

[Anya Cain]

No.

[Kevin Greenlee]

So it's. See, what, what does it Take in your mind, for a suit to happen.

[Anya Cain]

I guess there has to be some kind of connection or like you have to owe something to somebody, like some level of responsibility.

[Kevin Greenlee]

There you walking down the street with your hat. There's certainly a connection with the other woman feeling worse about herself. But what you said there about some sort of owing somebody something, can you elaborate on that?

[Anya Cain]

I don't owe the other woman benefit to her self esteem. Like, I'm just minding my own business. If I was swinging around the easter bonnet, which had like a machete on it recklessly, and it flew off and.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Hurt her, then does this subway worker who is shoving this person on the subway train owe a duty to a woman he's never met, who is standing by scales several feet away?

[Anya Cain]

Doesn't he owe everyone a safe experience on the subway that he's employed by? And is shoving someone really super safe?

[Kevin Greenlee]

Don't you owe an obligation to all the women of the world not to make them feel bad about themselves?

[Anya Cain]

No, I mean, like, especially. I'm not doing anything active. I'm just passively there. I didn't like, shove anyone.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Well, this is the Palsgraph case, and it stands for the idea that you can't file a civil tort against someone unless they owe you a specific duty. And it was found that this subway worker did not owe this duty to this stranger.

[Anya Cain]

Okay. I mean, I can understand that seems bad to shove people, but I see what it's like. If he had shoved her and she got injured that way, that would be a more direct thing versus, like, setting off this weird, like, Rube Goldberg esque situation. Where was she badly injured?

[Kevin Greenlee]

No.

[Anya Cain]

Oh, okay. So she wasn't badly injured. That's good.

[Kevin Greenlee]

It like, shocked her. It's like, surprised her. And she said to have developed a stammer afterwards.

[Anya Cain]

Oh, wow. Okay.

[Kevin Greenlee]

And that was supposedly as a result of. Of the incident. Do you want me to give you another one?

[Anya Cain]

Yes.

[Kevin Greenlee]

This is back to contract law. Torts and contract law are both courses that are covered in the first year of law school. So there's this kid named George, 11 years old. He touches an electric wire with his hand, and as a result of this, his hand is very badly scarred. And it is so scarred on, like, the palm of his hand. I believe that as the scar develops, it kind of causes his hand to curl up into, like, a claw. So because of this, his use of the hand is really, really limited.

[Anya Cain]

Okay, that's awful.

[Kevin Greenlee]

It's terrible. He goes to a doctor at some point, and this Doctor says, I can fix you. I can make your hand 100% again, be like the incident never happened. And it's going to involve grafting some skin to your hand from another part of your body. So he does this operation, he takes some skin from the boy's chest, and this happens years after the original injury. And his hand grows hair on the palm of his hand, and the scars aren't even really removed. So you could argue now he's in a worse situation because he still has the scars. And he also has this kind of unsightly hand with hair on it, and it is also bleeding sometimes.

[Anya Cain]

I have a question. Is it more functional now than it was? Oh, okay. That's a problem.

[Kevin Greenlee]

So here is my question to you. Obviously, the family sues the doctor. How do you calculate what kind of damages this person is entitled to?

[Anya Cain]

I don't even. I can't even begin to tell you because it's like it's in the same position it was. But, I mean, the.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Maybe it's a little bit worse because of.

[Anya Cain]

Maybe it's worse. It's worse. And also the time and pain of surgery and recovery and things like that.

[Kevin Greenlee]

And so do you say we. We say since it's worse than before, the damages are based on how. How your hand was before compared to how it is now. Is that how you would do it?

[Anya Cain]

Maybe. But I think you also have to throw in, like, surgery is not just anything like, you have to recover. There's pain involved. The grafting process is painful and unpleasant. So I feel like that's. You gotta throw that in, too.

[Kevin Greenlee]

So I will make sure I understand you. You want him to get pain and suffering for the operation, and then you want him to get the difference between what he previously had, which was a scarred hand, and what he has now, which is a scarred hand with hair on it.

[Anya Cain]

Yeah, I guess so.

[Kevin Greenlee]

So let me. If I. If I were to say, anya, I'm going to give you a diamond ring.

[Anya Cain]

Oh, thank you.

[Kevin Greenlee]

And you can show it off to the world. You're gonna. It's a beautiful diamond ring. Here's a contract. You're gonna get this diamond ring, and then I give you a toy ring I got out of a GU machine. Do you just say to yourself, well, I'm not really worse off than I was before. Maybe I'm a little bit mad at my husband, but would you be satisfied if. Well, all. All that's. All that's changed, really, Anya, is you signed this contract, but you just ended up with a toy ring. That's not a big deal.

[Anya Cain]

Well, I mean, I don't know if that's apples for apples, because it feels like the guy was put in a worse situation with his hairy hand that's bleeding.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Right. Okay, let me.

[Anya Cain]

It's more like if.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Give it to me.

[Anya Cain]

I don't know. It's like, if I also. The toy ring you gave me somehow, like, exploded and kind of cut my hand a little bit. It's, like, slightly worse now. Things are slightly worse for me. Thanks a lot.

[Kevin Greenlee]

That sounds like something I would do.

[Anya Cain]

Like, Looney Tunes esque, situation happens and it explodes. Yeah. We have a very mild injury. Like, it's not a big deal. It's. It's gonna be fine, but it's just like, I'm a little bit worse off now. I also maybe, like, set aside a whole day to be all excited about the ring, so I wasted some times and opportunities and whatnot.

[Kevin Greenlee]

What. What if I said, Anya, that this ring, it's a really beautiful ring. You're gonna have to drive up to Chicago to get it.

[Anya Cain]

Oh, I would be so mad at you.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Would you just. Then you make the trip, you find out it was a gag. That's enough. And again, we're assuming there's a contract here.

[Anya Cain]

So this is just you verbally telling me all this. I'm screwed. Yeah. I mean, I don't. I don't know. I'm no great legal mind, but my, like, instinct would be, you know, that you should consider some of that.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Well, there is in contract law, something a concept called expectations damages, where if a contract is breached, the person who has the contract breached should be put where they would have been had the contract been fulfilled. And so this young man was entitled to the difference between a perfect hand and what he ended up with. Damn.

[Anya Cain]

Wow.

[Kevin Greenlee]

And also, he. The court ruled he was not entitled to any pain and suffering money because he agreed to do a surgery. And there is a certain amount of expectation of pain and suffering in any.

[Anya Cain]

Surgery that makes sense. It's not a walk in the park. So, you know, you kind of expected that. But at the same time, it sounds like he got more money from the side of things. Being like, you were told you're gonna get a perfect 10, and you didn't.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Yeah.

[Anya Cain]

So I imagine, also, I imagine that had the net benefit of making quack doctors not be able to promise too much. Promise the moon. Because they would end up paying for that moon.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Yes, they would. Indeed.

[Anya Cain]

So, I mean, that seems like a net benefit for society, especially when you look at the history of medicine. And there's been all sorts of wacky nonsense with that. So, yeah, that. That kind of. That all makes sense.

[Kevin Greenlee]

So this is basically what you do in law school. You.

[Anya Cain]

You. You ask a bunch of weird questions.

[Kevin Greenlee]

You have textbooks filled with these cases. It's almost like you're reading, like a more complicated Aesop's Fables where there's, like a little story. You talk about it, here's the point of it, and the way you discuss it. Your law professors will be much more aggressive than I was with Anya.

[Anya Cain]

Oh, no.

[Kevin Greenlee]

And will try to ask lots of probing questions to try to get you to make concessions like you really shouldn't make.

[Anya Cain]

Oh, no. Make you look like an idiot in.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Order to lead you down a garden path. There's an anecdote I shared with you from my law school days, Anya, which you had me share with someone else over the weekend.

[Anya Cain]

But did this happen to you or your friend?

[Kevin Greenlee]

This happened to a friend.

[Anya Cain]

Okay. So did you. I'm just asking, did you ever get led down by the garden path?

[Kevin Greenlee]

Not to this extent. It started out we're talking about some case. The actual details of the case don't matter. But it ended up with the premise was if you're facing a threat and you do something that might be regarded in other contexts as potentially criminal, should you face criminal charges for it? And I believe it was something like you're on a sled and there was like some valuable property on the sled that belongs to someone else. You're being chased by someone who wants to kill you. Maybe they're even shooting at you. And you know that if you keep all of this stuff on the sled, it's going to slow the sled down. So it's like you're tossing this valuable merchandise off of the sled, maybe off a cliff. It's never going to be recovered, and you know it's never going to be recovered. Should you be held criminally liable for this destruction of property? The person said, no. No, you shouldn't be. And that's what you would say, right?

[Anya Cain]

Probably, yeah.

[Kevin Greenlee]

What if there's. Instead of property, what if the stuff you're throwing off a sled is an animal? Would that be animal cruelty? Should you be face charges for that? Because if there's like a big dog or something on there that weighs 50 to 100 pounds, maybe that's going to slow your sled down. You're going to be killed.

[Anya Cain]

Sorry, Lanny.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Should you be faced with animal cruelty charges or.

[Anya Cain]

And you Know if the animal is thrown off the sled that it will be killed?

[Kevin Greenlee]

Yeah. So I'm asking you, do you think a person in that situation should be faced with animal cruelty? I don't know.

[Anya Cain]

Maybe I feel like, like I love animals, but at the same time, if. Will the animal be killed if it's also caught by the people with guns unknown. Oh, my God. I don't know. It's very stressful.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Well, I'm compressing this because this, this.

[Anya Cain]

Went on for hours.

[Kevin Greenlee]

This went on for about 20, 25 minutes. And the last question the professor asked the hapless law student was, what if it was a baby?

[Anya Cain]

Maybe if you chuck a baby off a sled.

[Kevin Greenlee]

And by that point, the student had made so many concessions where he said, you know, throwing property, throwing animals. He said, yeah, sure, you should be able to throw the baby off the sled to save yourself.

[Anya Cain]

Just yeet that baby.

[Kevin Greenlee]

He said this through the derision of the others in the class. You can't kill someone else to save yourself.

[Anya Cain]

No, but I wouldn't even really want to kill a dog. I don't know. It's. That's. I would do so badly in law school. All of this is just making me realize that, okay, my, I mean, I would just, I would, I would be befuddled immediately.

[Kevin Greenlee]

So this is what my law school experience was like, is that you would have a class of like an hour, hour and a half. And in each class, the professor would call on at most one or two people, and he would keep asking those one or two people lots and lots of questions for about 30 to 40 minutes each. So that, that was a bit stressful when you, when you were called on because you might be put into that position where you're making ridiculous concessions. And that is actually probably the closest thing thing to working. That's the closest approximation of some areas of law, because sometimes judges or other people start asking you questions because it's.

[Anya Cain]

Also, it's kind of confrontational. It makes like if you say the wrong thing, you're going to look foolish. Maybe in some situations there is no real easy answer to give. Yeah, so I mean, that, that does sound, that sounds maybe like a decent preparation for elements.

[Kevin Greenlee]

But other than that, mostly what you're doing in law school is you're just talking about cases and you are getting drilled into your mind. These are general principles. And if you're like doing a contract case and you can say, oh, is this like the hairy hand? Is this like the bridge that was finished when it shouldn't have been. And that just gives you a way to kind of process and classify things. But it doesn't really tell you, here's how you do a deposition, here's how you file an appearance with a court or things of that nature. So that's what law school is like. You often hear complaints that it should be more practical and focus on more actual skills that you would use. Oh, I should mention exams. Your grade in law school, and this is also stressful, is based entirely on your final exam. And your final exam is you will be given 1, 2, 3. Lengthy. I say lengthy. Maybe it's a page or two, but a detailed case where you then are expected to apply the principles you've learned and write about and say, here are the issues in the case, here are the arguments on either side. Here's why this case is like the hairy hand. Here's why this case is like the bridge or what have you. And these exams are generally open book because certainly if you are preparing a brief for court in real life, they're not going to say, okay, you can't look at your law books.

[Anya Cain]

Don't look at your law books.

[Kevin Greenlee]

You just have to do this all by memory, folks.

[Anya Cain]

We're going to lock you in a room. Is it a real case or is it when the professor makes up?

[Kevin Greenlee]

It's when the professor makes up. Okay. And it's when they make up to try to include as many different points as possible. And one of the things they're looking for is have you learned enough over the course of the year in order to pick up on all these points that are raised in there.

[Anya Cain]

That makes sense.

[Kevin Greenlee]

And I remember right, it's stressful because usually in classes in college, in high school, what have you, you're doing tests and getting graded work back all throughout the semester.

[Anya Cain]

Yes.

[Kevin Greenlee]

So you have some sense of how you're doing, but in law school you don't, because you're not getting really graded until the very end. So that can be stressful. And I remember when I was the first year, right before the first exam, one of the students told me, I'm really, really stressed because I don't know if this test is going to be like boxing some old man I find on the street or boxing Mike Tyson.

[Anya Cain]

Which one was it.

[Kevin Greenlee]

More like Tyson.

[Anya Cain]

Oh, no.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Then you, you, you're thinking, oh, it's open book. I got nothing to worry about. I don't need to study or prepare. You do. You do.

[Anya Cain]

Oh, no. Gosh. I mean, was there any element of law school that you felt you struggled with or alternatively other things that you seemed like it might be bad but you actually had no problem with.

[Kevin Greenlee]

The class I enjoyed most would probably criminal law. Criminal procedure. I'll tell this story because it makes me look foolish and oh no, deservedly so.

[Anya Cain]

No, you never look foolish.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Hang on. I was able for a number of years to have my law school classes Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday. So that means, oh, I have a three day weekend, which is great. And then my semester before my last, I was able to maneuver it so it was a four day weekend. And then for my last semester in law school, I found that there was a way I could achieve the dream oh no.

[Anya Cain]

And not go to law school of.

[Kevin Greenlee]

The five day weekend. But the only way I could do that would be if one of my classes was on international taxation. And it said we only recommend you take this class if you have a significant background. You've already taken a lot of tax courses. I hadn't taken any tax courses. I just wanted that five day weekend. And I go to this class. It turns out first of all, international taxation is really complicated. It's really, really complicated. So hats off to everybody who's doing international taxation law. God bless you. And then also it turns out because it's so complicated, if my memory was right, including me, there were four people in the class.

[Anya Cain]

Oh my God. So you can't hide anywhere.

[Kevin Greenlee]

I can't hide. So then what I did, after an embarrassing session or two, I was able to sign up for, I believe it was like a fellowsh with you get class credit if you help in people get access to criminal law advice. So I got out of the class and I still got my credit.

[Anya Cain]

You did like a DV domestic violence. Kind of like helping people with that, right?

[Kevin Greenlee]

Like yeah, there were, there was a thing going on there. It was called the protective order project where if you helped out people get protective orders, you got credit and you also get to do good work.

[Anya Cain]

That's, that's, I mean I, I, I, you're, I, I appreciate your optimism with the taxes thing. Cause I probably would have done the same thing. But it's very much like a five day weekend. It's like you're like Icarus flying too close to the sun. Um, yeah, no, I mean that sounds, and, and were there things though that like weren't like that sounded intimidating but you get used to pretty quickly.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Doing the cases. Wasn't that, that, that hard? It's kind of fun to read crazy stories.

[Anya Cain]

Yeah.

[Kevin Greenlee]

And then talk to them or listen to Other people talk about them.

[Anya Cain]

Yeah, that, I mean, that sounds fun.

[Kevin Greenlee]

I, I remember one thing I really enjoyed, and my memory is so bad that I'm not recalling. I think the protective order project was something I did earlier.

[Anya Cain]

Oh, okay.

[Kevin Greenlee]

And I think what I got the credit for was if you would go and speak to middle schoolers about the legal system, you'd get credit for that. And I did that for a while and I enjoyed talking about the law to people who were really interested in it, but just maybe didn't understand all of it.

[Anya Cain]

Right, that makes sense. Um, I mean, I, I, I'm curious, like, are there, like, if, if we have listeners who are maybe debating law school, would there be, like, any advice you would give for someone in that position if they're not sure if it's right for them?

[Kevin Greenlee]

I, I would contact whatever law school is nearest to you and talk with them about what their entry requirements are, what it's like, and what you'd really have to look at. First and foremost, I mean, we have to be realistic, is it's very expensive.

[Anya Cain]

Yeah, it's really expensive.

[Kevin Greenlee]

You have to go into significant debt in order to do it, which kind.

[Anya Cain]

Of stinks because then I feel like that probably drives people away from going into areas of law that are less lucrative later on because you're in debt and you have to get out of that first.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Yeah, I think that's very true.

[Anya Cain]

So, yeah, that kind of stinks.

[Kevin Greenlee]

And then after you get out, if possible, you should try to either join a firm or at least make friends with other lawyers who can actually tell you. Okay, now that you know all that stuff, here's how the job works, here's how you file something with the court, here's how you do this or that.

[Anya Cain]

I have a question. Do you think it's a reason, do you think it's valid criticism that you don't really learn to become a lawyer, or do you think it's actually really important to have the foundation of how to think like a lawyer and how to think through cases before and the other stuff you're just going to learn on the job and that it's actually okay as it is?

[Kevin Greenlee]

I think you should be able to walk and chew gum at the same time. So I think ideally you should be able to bring in more of what the actual job is like.

[Anya Cain]

Okay. So maybe some reform is needed to have that, while also, while not eradicating the necessary. Reinvent your thinking. Because, I mean, it's interesting. Like, I, I, you're an attorney, and I'M not. I do feel like you think in some different ways than I do or like you're very, you know, like the way you process information is different.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Yeah. That first year in particular is. Is quite a challenge. And it's important that first year just. Here's how you need to think about things. Here's how you need to have all these things in your mind so when you get the details of a case, you can start pointing out, this is what's important, this is what's important. This is what's important. So it's very crucial to do that early on. And I should also say now that we're talking about such things, the author, Scott Turow, who we've had on the show twice, I think he, back in the 70s, wrote a book about his first year in law school called 1L, which again, tends to be read by a lot of incoming law students.

[Anya Cain]

Absolutely. Well, I guess for. For you, I mean, law school, I mean, I feel like you were born to be a lawyer. You're very. You're very. You're very smart. Can I actually go back, though? Like, before, what made you decide to do it versus anything else?

[Kevin Greenlee]

Well, first of all, you may feel smart, but when you're in law school, but you're surrounded by very, very smart people, which can be intimidating. What appealed to me about the law is I tend to get interested in something and then be interested in something else. And then be interested in something else. And when you're working cases as a lawyer in real life, in one case, you may need to know, oh, here's how pinball machines work. And I need to know all this stuff about how pinball machines work in order to help one particular client in another case, you might need to know. Here's how the restaurant industry works. So it gives you a chance to really learn about different aspects of the world and to meet a wide variety of interesting people. And certainly if you are interested in it, I would encourage people to strongly consider it. There are some good financial aid programs out there, and I guess that's. Anything else about law schools?

[Anya Cain]

No, no. You answered all my questions, but I think that's really neat. And yeah, I think maybe if anyone out there is considering it, you know, feel free to shoot us an [e-mail].

[Kevin Greenlee]

Always need more lawyers. They're the princes and princesses of the world.

[Anya Cain]

All right, all done.

[Kevin Greenlee]

All done. Thanks so much for listening to the Murder Sheet. If you have a tip concerning one of the cases we cover, please email [e-mail] if you have actionable information about an unsolved crime, please report it to the appropriate authorities.

[Anya Cain]

If you're interested in joining our Patreon, that's available at www.patreon.com murdersheet. If you want to tip us a bit of money for records requests, you can do so at www. Buymeacoffee.com murdersheet. We very much appreciate any support.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Special thanks to Kevin Tyler Greenlee, who composed the music for the murder sheet and who you can find on the [e-mail] if you're looking to talk with.

[Anya Cain]

Other listeners about a case we've covered, you can join the Murder Sheet discussion group on Facebook. We mostly focus our time on research and reporting, so we're not on social media much. We do try to check our email account, but we ask for patience as we often receive a lot of messages. Thanks again for listening.

[Kevin Greenlee]

You know, Anya, we are in this true crime space. It's such a difficult place to be in sometimes. And one of the reasons is because you're talking about cases that people have a real emotional involvement in. And so if you reach a conclusion that some people don't like online, they're going to, like, start attacking you and even threatening you.

[Anya Cain]

Yes.

[Kevin Greenlee]

And I know when that first started happening to us, it was really, really unsettling and difficult. And I know one thing that really helped us feel better and safer to continue on with the show was SimpliSafe.

[Anya Cain]

SimpliSafe has been a company we've trusted for years. We've used them for years to protect our home. And one of the reasons is they just give us that peace of mind. As Kevin said, we're no strangers to controversy. And sometimes that can mean getting threats or getting basically hit veiled threats where people say they're gonna come hurt you because they disagree with what you're saying about a case. And so with Simplisafe, we're able to kind of keep the murder sheet train chugging along and not worry about that too much because we know that they are so proactive about how they keep homes secure. This is a company, I mean, their new active guard outdoor protection that's there to stop break ins before they happen. They're not just letting you know about, oh, this bad thing happened. They're trying to prevent it from even happening so you don't have to go through that trauma. They have live monitoring agents on hand 247 to possibly detect suspicious activity around the property. They have cameras and also one thing I like about them is they're flexible. They know that different people have different needs. They know that if you're a renter, you can't necessarily set up the same amount of equipment and it can't be on the walls permanently as you could do if you're a homeowner. So they're great for renters, they're great for homeowners. No contracts, no hidden fees. Visit simplisafe.com msheet to claim 50% off a new system with a professional monitoring plan and get your first month free. That's simplisafe.com msheet there's no safe like Simplisafe. We're obsessed with our Quint's pieces. Is that fair to say?

[Kevin Greenlee]

That's fair to say.

[Anya Cain]

What is Quint's?

[Kevin Greenlee]

Quint is a company. It lets you get really high quality clothing for very affordable prices.

[Anya Cain]

They do that because they basically cut out the middleman. You're just getting cut him right out. Yeah, they're getting it from the artisans. They're giving it to you. It's wonderful. It's going to be 50 to 80% less than those of their competitors. And you're just going to get some wonderful things. We recently went shopping to get some summer styles. We'd previously gotten some winter styles, but we wanted to update. So we went on quints and we both got something. Let's talk about what we got. I got this wonderful a hundred percent European linen dress. It's a button front dress and it's in blue chambray stripe. I love this dress. I'm picky about dresses because, like, I feel like I'm have a weird shaped body and sometimes they cut me off in a weird way. This one just fits like a dream. I love the way it fits. It is very much a classic sort of style. So I'm not worried about it going out of style in like two minutes and then I'm looking foolish. It just looks like something I can wear for years and years. I know I'm going to be wearing this dress a lot this summer.

[Kevin Greenlee]

I got a great shirt. I can't paint word pictures like you do, but I'm very happy with the shirt. I've gotten compliments on the shirt. It's a comfortable shirt.

[Anya Cain]

For anyone who is interested in learning more about the the products that we purchased, he got a hundred percent European linen utility shirt in martini olive. So I think it looks really cute. I think that you look very cute in it.

[Kevin Greenlee]

So I love it and keep watching our Facebook page because we will probably if I convince her. Take a picture of Anya wearing her dress and her beret.

[Anya Cain]

Oh, I got a beret too because Kevin insists on me buying new hats. So I got a little blue beret. And yeah, I, I just really Quint is one of those brands. I just love working with them because it's just stuff that I love to kind of come back to and keep buying. I love what they're doing, I love how ethical they are and I know that they're going to get me quality pieces fast. And with their wonderful return policy, you can try on different things, make sure the sizing's right for you. And it's just a great deal for murder sheet listeners. So give your summer closet an upgrade with quince. Go to quince.commsheet for free shipping on your order and 365 day returns. That's quinece.commsheet to get free shipping and 365 day returns. Quince.commsheet.