Loading summary
Transcript419 lines
- [00:00]
A
It's cold. The holidays are coming up and it's time to refresh your wardrobe effortlessly with our wonderful sponsor, Quince.
- [00:08]
B
Quince makes uplifting your style easy and affordable. We're talking luxury goods for less Mongolian cashmere sweaters to Italian wool coats. Just in time to deck the halls for the holidays.
- [00:21]
A
Quince keeps prices down on these premium fashion staples by cutting out the middleman. We're talking prices 50% less than those of their competitors.
- [00:30]
B
My quince sweaters are quickly becoming my go to garments as the temperatures fall. I really enjoy putting on my Australian merino wool cable crew neck sweater and my navy Mongolian cashmere crew neck sweater. They are so soft and do an incredible job keeping me comfortable in these temperatures.
- [00:48]
A
Kevin is too modest to say, but he also looks very cute in them. Whether you're treating yourself for the holidays or looking for terrific gifts for your loved ones, Quinn's is the place to go for coats, sweaters, silk shir and dresses and much more. We're confident you'll love Quince as much as we do. And with prices 50% less than other brands, they make it easy to stay stylish without squeezing your wallet.
- [01:08]
B
Get your wardrobe sorted out and your gift list handled with quints. Don't wait. Go to quints.commsheet for free shipping on your order and 365 day returns. Now available in Canada too. That's Q U I N C E. Free shipping and 365 day returns. Quints.commsheet this is Kevin and we're going to answer a bunch of questions about cases and matters quite personal. Content warning will probably talk about terrible things and may use some profanity.
- [01:49]
A
Yeah. So today we're going to be tackling questions about other cases we've covered other than Delphi, as well as some personal questions. Things might get a little spicy. Let's go for it.
- [02:00]
B
Do it.
- [02:01]
A
My name is Anya Cain. I'm a journalist.
- [02:03]
B
And I'm Kevin Greenlee. I'm an attorney.
- [02:06]
A
And this is the Murder Sheet.
- [02:08]
B
We're a true crime podcast focused on original reporting, interviews and deep dives into murder cases. We're the Murder Sheet.
- [02:16]
A
And this is more questions and answers to close out 2025 SA.
- [03:04]
B
Should we just dive right into it with no preamble, just no. No opening banter, no fun, no frivolity, no humor? Just dive right into the questions. Is that what we should do?
- [03:17]
A
Sure.
- [03:19]
B
I love your enthusiasm. This is from Facebook. Not so much a question as a request. Can you do a spin docs episode on Take Care of Maya.
- [03:31]
A
Take Care of Maya was a Netflix documentary about Maya Kowalski, a young girl who was. There was essentially controversy. The hospital, she had all these medical issues. The hospital suspected Munchausen's by proxy from her mom. I know this has been a case that's really controversial and a lot of people have different opinions on it. Yeah, I'd be. I'd be totally willing to do a spin docs on that. I definitely want to come into it with some better understanding of the issues at play because neither of us are medical professionals. So I wouldn't want to like, you know, come down on a side without really looking at anything. But it could be interesting to see just how the documentary plays it.
- [04:11]
B
You do have family members who are medical professionals.
- [04:14]
A
I can bother them for information.
- [04:16]
B
That's the whole point of family.
- [04:18]
A
So the next one is Facebook. Are there any wrongful conviction cases that either that you believe have merit? Have there been cases overturned as wrongful convictions that you think the actual killer was set free?
- [04:30]
B
Well, first of all, I'll start by saying it's not a wrongful conviction case. But one of our very first episodes was a wrongful plea bargain where. Where we believe a person pled guilty to a crime he didn't commit. And that was the Prestoza case, right?
- [04:47]
A
Yeah. Out of Hawaii.
- [04:48]
B
Out of Hawaii. And it was so early that you were like editing in sound effects, I remember. But that was a very innocent time. That was like a very, very upsetting case. And also it was a case that attracted my attention because had a bunch of bizarre elements, including a key witness having kind of a breakdown on the stand. Not like a I did it, I did it breakdown, but more like suddenly making strange noises and on the stand.
- [05:21]
A
Yeah, Freaking out. Yeah. I think the case we covered recently out of Columbus. What was that person's name?
- [05:30]
B
Sharon Myers.
- [05:31]
A
Sharon Myers. Sharon Myers was the murder victim. And then the guy who was convicted for that. I'm blanking.
- [05:37]
B
I am too.
- [05:39]
A
That. That case, I think that was that. That's looking like it's going to be overturned as far as the conviction goes. And. Oh, yeah, it was. It was. Jason Hubble was convicted of murdering her. Now that's not a fun case because we think Jason Hubble absolutely murdered her. He is a murderer. But things that have come out about how the police in Columbus handled his case make us think that key discovery was hidden from his defense team.
- [06:10]
B
So he did not get a fair trial.
- [06:12]
A
So that's a wrongful conviction. It's not an Actual innocence case though. So that, that's a big difference too. Like there can be a lot of things where that can go wrong in a case. And the thing is they pitch it to you, the media pitches it to you as a wrongful conviction because nobody likes to think about people getting off on a quote, technicality. But the thing is our, our system operates on technicalities. So you gotta, you know, you gotta let people out if the fair, if the trial wasn't fair. But no, it's not as sexy and it doesn't get people as outraged as, as, oh, this is the real killer. People like that better for some reason because it doesn't sound as, you know, I think, I think there's just a lot of simplistic views about this stuff in the media.
- [06:51]
B
I think there are absolutely wrongful convictions out there in the sense that there are people who are convicted who not only didn't receive a fair trial, but who are actually innocent or they might.
- [07:02]
A
Have received a relatively fair trial and still be innocent.
- [07:06]
B
Yeah, I think they happen. I think they are relatively rare. And I think one of the unfortunate things about the wrongful conviction industry now is that the absolutely true and valid cases get harder and harder to find because of all of the ones that just don't hold up. And it gets to the point when you start looking into these cases, if you get a list of 10 cases and you look at them and all of them there's information being withheld and the person's really guilty or things like that, ultimately it becomes discouraging and it might make you less likely to look until you find the actual cases.
- [07:49]
A
I'm going to say this, that's the politically correct answer. Oh, it really hurts the real wrongful convictions. And it does. And that's a true thing. It also re victimizes victims and victims families and besmirches people who did their jobs properly. So I think there's also, there's more fallout than just that. And I think it's also a bastardization of justice in this country. And I'm going to say this, it's not lost on me that there is absolutely a wrongful conviction industrial complex. And it's to the point where it's like if we can't find an actual clear cut wrongful conviction or even something that's on the line, we're just going to make it up and say it's a wrongful conviction. I mean, how many cases have we seen with that where you look at the basic evidence and you're immediately like, okay, well, this is definitely, you know, but the thing is we all have to have our podcasts, we all have to have our little documentary projects. So, you know, I mean, like, like there's a thing in journalism where it's like, okay, this is an old case. Why are we covering it now? And the easiest thing in the world to say is to say, oh, well, it's, I think it's a wrongful conviction. We're so we're coming at it from a new angle. I mean, that's, that's how you get a project made. And I think that's despicable. And I, when I look at people who are just doing wrongful convictions, I personally believe there aren't enough clear cut wrongful convictions to necessarily go around so that all these people have a podcast episode ready to go every week. I think the real cases, first of all, are usually not the ones that are being reported on in the media because they're not sexy, because they look more like this. They look more like there was a gang fight and one guy was blamed for shooting this guy because they were all in the gang. But maybe he, there's not enough evidence to show that he was actually the shooter and therefore his sentence is really unfair. I think that's what we're talking about, complicated, non sexy cases where the victim isn't, you know, plastered all over the news for, for weeks and weeks. And I think that those get ignored in favor of stuff that's more of like a murder mystery that we're solving together. I hate that stuff. This is the kind of stuff that makes me totally like, lose faith in a large section of true crime.
- [10:01]
B
And also the thing to remember is when you read stories about wrongful convictions, most of the information for those stories is coming from the perpetrator's defense attorneys. So it is very, very slanted. We've obviously talked a lot about Delphi. Imagine if all the information you got from that case came from Richard Allen's defense team. Would you have an accurate understanding of that case? Absolutely not. And the reason only the defense attorneys talk is because prosecutors, by and large refuse to make public statements about cases in progress. And so that makes it easier for defense attorneys to bend the truth a bit.
- [10:50]
A
A bit.
- [10:50]
B
And also keep in mind that if you read a story about an alleged wrongful conviction and you walk away thinking, oh, this is so blazingly obvious, there's no way this person could be guilty, it's such a huge outrage, then if the information you've been given to reach that conclusion is True. Then why wouldn't people have released him? Why would the jury have reached the verdict it did? Why has no one in the justice system done something?
- [11:25]
A
Oh, because the whole system's corrupt, Kevin.
- [11:27]
B
The answer is you're not getting a full picture, and the defense attorneys or whoever are trying to present things in a certain way to draw you to that conclusion. And if things are as obvious and as clear as they say there are, then their client would not be in prison.
- [11:44]
A
Yeah, it's a situation where, like. I mean, I. I think also there's. I mean, I think for political reasons and otherwise, and I'm actually not even singling out any one political party here. There's. There's efforts to kind of, you know, basically declare war on the rule of law to a certain extent and tear down the system. I mean, no, I'm. I'm. And I'm saying that. And listen, elements of the system should be reformed, but I personally think that it's a pretty good system at the end of the day. And, you know, when you're basically just acting like you can't trust anything and you can't trust anyone and everything is a plot to, you know, frame innocent people, you know, it's. At some point, it. It just becomes just conspiratorial nonsense. I also don't believe in sitting around and being like, well, the police arrested this guy, so they must have gotten it right. No? How many times do the police arrest someone and then they have to let them go, and then later on, it turns out someone else did it? But I think the skepticism should go both ways because both sides are trying to sell you something. So being somewhat skeptically neutral from the beginning is a good thing.
- [12:52]
B
What's the next question, Ms. Kane?
- [12:54]
A
A couple years ago, Kevin expressed an interest in finding out more about a family murder that occurred in Fort Wayne. I know from context what murder you were talking about. Have you pursued anything on this? I've always felt this was one that deserved a book, and I think the two of you could do it justice.
- [13:08]
B
Thank you very much. And first of all, if anyone out there has information on this case, please, please send it to me. I'm very curious about this case. I haven't done much on it for a few years. Not. I don't think I've done anything on it since I've met Anya. But it is a case I did do some work on. It's a haunting case, and at least it first blush, there are things about it I have some serious questions about. At first blush, it looks like the person who allegedly confessed. There are some things in that confession which don't seem to fit some of the facts at the crime scene, at first blush. And then that person who confessed also died in prison or in jail, I guess. So these are things I have questions about. I don't have any conclusions. There may be perfectly valid and innocent explanations for all of this, but it's something that's always troubled me, and I'd like to get back to it. It's also a case where I found, when I was trying to get information on it a few years back, that people in Fort Wayne did not seem especially eager to talk about it.
- [14:33]
A
Well, I mean, it's pretty horrible. I mean, can I say what case it is?
- [14:36]
B
Okay.
- [14:37]
A
It's the 1983 murder of Dan Osborne, his wife Jane, and their son Ben in Fort Wayne. My vibe has always been that the guy who confessed did it, but I admit that I'm coming at it from not a lot of information.
- [14:50]
B
That may very well be true, but I have some questions and concerns.
- [14:56]
A
Sounds like he knew a lot about the crime scene. But I. You know, this is one that I would be interested in looking more into, too, if you want to.
- [15:05]
B
Yeah.
- [15:05]
A
And it sounds like there's some interest. Yeah, might be. Might be. Might be good. But. Yeah, but I guess I like, you know, we both might be coming at it from slightly different angles.
- [15:17]
B
Yeah. And we might end up at the same place because maybe some of the information I got was questionable because I haven't really had the opportunity to validate it. I did at one point get the report, the official report of the investigation into the confessor's death. I got that from the FBI.
- [15:35]
A
Right. Okay. So we got some stuff to look over. But, yeah, no, thank you. Thank you for your interest. And, you know, I don't. Ultimately, what's a book and what's not a book would be up to a publisher. You know, in terms of. You know, I personally think almost any case is worth a book because it's a human life and there's something interesting there. But, you know, but as far as definitely covering on the podcast, I think we. That's.
- [15:57]
B
And I want to stress that when I say I have questions, that doesn't necessarily mean there's anything suspicious. You're just asking questions because they're. Oftentimes what's reported in the press may have some inaccuracies, and maybe I've been given wrong information. Maybe there's. There's perfectly natural explanations. I'm not aware of certainly when we were covering Delphi more from the outside, there were a lot of things we had questions about that turned out to have perfectly valid answers.
- [16:22]
A
That's right.
- [16:23]
B
So I'm not accusing anybody of anything untoward.
- [16:26]
A
Good. Yeah. If you're like me, you're so into true crime that you kind of get extra careful about stuff, making sure you're not followed. For instance, staying situationally aware. And of course, checking the locks on your doors and windows before bed. Better safe than sorry, right? Because we all know bad stuff can and unfortunately does happen.
- [16:47]
B
Well, our sponsor, Simplisafe can help with your peace of mind. We've trusted Simplisafe's home security system for years. Traditional home security systems just don't cut it. They only go off after someone's breaking in. They are purely reactive.
- [17:04]
A
Simplisafe is proactive. Their AI powered cameras detect threats while they're still outside. That's when live monitoring agents jump in. They can address the intruder directly, tell them they're on camera and that the police are coming. They can even set off alarms and sirens and lights.
- [17:21]
B
We love Simplisafe. We used it when we were renters. We used it when we bought our home. It is so easy to set up and allows you so much flexibility. It's reliable. We've gotten threats over our reporting before, so we take this stuff very seriously. And with Simplisafe we feel we're in great hands.
- [17:40]
A
So protect your home with SimpleLife and get 50% off any new system. For a limited time, just go to simplisafe.com msheet that's simplisafe.com msheet there's no safe like simplisafe. VRBO makes it easy to claim your dream summer spot with early booking deals. From homes with pools to poolside loungers. When you book a vrbo, you don't have to reserve any loungers. They're all yours. Get that early booking deal@vrbo.com Shopify's point of sale system helps you sell at every stage of your business. Need a fast and secure way to take payments in person? We've got you covered. How about card readers you can rely on anywhere you sell.
- [18:21]
B
Thanks.
- [18:21]
A
Have a good one. Yep, that too. Want one place to manage all your online and in person sales? That's kind of our thing. Wherever you sell. Businesses that grow grow with Shopify. Sign up for your $1 a month trial@shopify.com listen shopify.com listen. So in terms of the next question, what Are the details of the murders in the hospital Dr. S.M. was talking about? Was it solved? Is it in his book? So Dr. Jeff Smallen is a forensic psychologist that we interviewed on the show recently. He wrote a terrific book called that Beast was not me. Dr. Smalldin is wild in a wonderful way. And he's very much someone who's a kindred spirit with us because starting when he was in. So his dad was an FBI agent. Starting when he was in college, he just was like, I want to be pen pals with the Manson family. And as they're in prison because he got really into Helter Skelter. And he started these correspondences with Charles Manson squeaky from like, Tex Watson, Susan Atkins. And that continued even, like, as his career progressed. He ultimately became a forensic psychologist where he would interview killers in capital cases to kind of determine, you know, help determine. Could there be some reason why they did this? Perhaps get them some leniency? But he, he was like, literally, like, apparently when they, like, arrested some of the Manson girls, like after Squeaky from tried to kill President Gerald Ford, they, like, found all of his letters. And the FBI was like, reaching out to his dad, being like, what's happening? So he's a great guy. Read his book. It's fascinating. He also had this weird brush with murder that occurred in 1983. Again, another 1983 case. This was in Columbus, Ohio. A woman named Patricia Maddox and Joyce McFadden, two women, they were both cancer researchers at the Riverside Methodist Hospital in Columbus, Ohio. They were found bound, gagged, and stabbed multiple times in the hospital laboratory. And that's a case that's technically unsolved, but the book gets way more into it and gets into Dr. Smallden's personal connection to it. And I would really strongly recommend the book. But yeah, it is a, it is a fascinating case. And there's some twists in the book and some twists with that case that you, you just don't really see coming. But I think I'll leave it at that. But, yeah, definitely get the beast. That beast was not me. I think it's fascinating. He corresponded with Ted Bundy, John Wayne Gacy, like all of these high profile serial killers, and he got some interesting insights into their personalities. So want to do the next one?
- [21:00]
B
Why don't you ask it and I'll start answering it.
- [21:02]
A
You guys did such a good job with the interview of the juror in the Delphi case. Have, have thought about interviewing jurors in other cases. I'm thinking of the O.J. simpson trial now. That he's passed. I thought interviews with them might be interesting.
- [21:14]
B
I would love to talk with jurors in the O.J. simpson trial. So here are the complicating things, which basically, there's two things that complicate this. Number one is finding jurors. The names of jurors are not public record. Those are often kept secret. Is that fair to say? Yes, for a variety of reasons. So if I decide I want to talk to a juror in a particular case, I have no way of making that happen other than to say something on the podcast like, hey, if you were a juror in that case, write me. If you were a juror in the O.J. simpson case, write me. We were able to talk to the juror. We did because she actually reached out to us. The second thing that complicates it is verification. Anybody can go around and say, oh, I was a juror in this case. And since the names aren't known and jurors faces aren't shown on television, it can be hard to verify that claim. At one point, we were in contact with somebody who said, oh, there's this really charming man going around talking about how he was a juror in this famous case. I won't name the case, and I bet he'd love to talk with you. And we did a little bit of research trying to check him out, and I think that was just a line that guy was using to try to get with women. So it's very hard to verify.
- [22:43]
A
Dating is hard.
- [22:45]
B
So unless you as a juror save something from the court verifying that you were actually a member of the jury, it's hard to verify. And also, in this day and age with AI and digital manipulation, even if you have a piece of paper that says Kevin Greenlee was a juror in this famous case that could be faked. We were fortunate with the Delphi juror because we were actually in court every day. So we got. She. She shared with us some paperwork and stuff that established she was who she said she was. But at the end of the day, basically all we needed to do was look at her and say, oh, yeah, we saw you there every day. That. And that's. That was the verification.
- [23:27]
A
Yeah, that's. That's very true. I know that some of the O.J. simpson jurors wrote a book together that a lot of people did not like. Apparently unsurprising, given the controversial outcome of that case. I mean, O.J. simpson was very clearly guilty. Like, there's no question about it. And it Seems like with the jury, there were, you know, there were things that were difficult for them. Being sequestered for like a year, feeling like the prosecution was dragging on.
- [23:55]
B
And then of course, ridiculously long trial.
- [23:57]
A
The racial conflicts between the LAPD and African American people within the Los Angeles area that were occurring in that period of history.
- [24:06]
B
So that trial was like a year. Can you imagine if the Delphi trials had lasted a year?
- [24:11]
A
Yeah, but like, I mean, you know, he's, he's still guilty. It was, it was, I mean, it was a bad call by them. I'm just going to say that. So I think, you know, that's, that's something. But, you know, we're here, we're here at any juror. I mean, I'd be curious if there's some big ones. But yeah, it's hard to get a juror. But if anyone was one and you can prove it, we'd love to talk to you. That's our answer. But it's a great question. I mean, I feel so, like, incredibly lucky that the juror that we spoke to ended up reaching out to us with Delphi because like, we just were like, oh, there's no way we're going to get any of. And then we heard from one of them. We were like, ah. We were literally freaking out because it's like, okay, now we can understand like why they made the decisions they did and what was important to them. So it was really cool. So, like, I would love to get more jurors in other high profile cases, but just a little bit tricky.
- [25:02]
B
Yeah, I love talking to people who can take us behind doors and can tell us about things that are unseen.
- [25:09]
A
Yeah. So it's a great suggestion. So this is a question I'm going to kind of. We got this more in an email, so I'm gonna kind of like, maybe, I don't know, boil this down. Cause it was very long and somewhat annoyed. And that's okay because we like to get harder, you know, hard questions too. So this is somebody who essentially feels like we, in our coverage of the Temujin Kenzu case, which of course is the murder of Scott Macklem on November 5, 1986, in Port Huron, Michigan, where.
- [25:40]
B
It was committed in fact, by Mr.
- [25:41]
A
Kenzie, done by Temjen Kenzie, who had time, went by Frederick Freeman. They feel like we've been relying too much on character assassination and character, you know, going after his character in order to make him guilty rather than the facts. So I, I understand where this person's coming from. So I think it's. We can address this. But first of all, so this case for. For a long time, has been exclusively reported on as a wrongful conviction. Like, even things that are slightly more down the middle, give a lot of credibility, and report incorrect facts pointing to a wrongful conviction. So we're coming into it and saying something different in that environment. Okay. One aspect of this case that's very important is that Crystal, who was a woman who was abused and raped and stalked by Temujin Kenzu, was a very important witness at this trial. And the reason for that is that Scott Macklem, the murder victim, was Crystal's fiance and the father of her child. And Scott Macklem and Crystal, after Crystal broke off her relationship with Temujin Kenzu and got with Scott, were both stalked and harassed by him. And that's not just me telling you that Scott Macklin himself, the murder victim, would do things like drive to Temujin Kenzoo's house and take down his driver's license so he could, you know, document that this guy was driving past his house late at night. He was telling people, a guy named Frederick Freeman is stalking me. This is all documented in case files. Okay? So when we talk about things like character, obviously, yeah, we don't like stalkers. We don't like people who are violent towards women. But all of that is material to this case because it centers around Crystal's testimony. Now, some people have said, well, Crystal's testimony is just character assassination against Temujin Kenzu because she said he raped her and he did all these horrible things to her and he beat her. Okay, well, that's all been adjudicated with appeals courts in Michigan. That's been adjudicated with. With courts. Right, Kevin?
- [27:53]
B
It has.
- [27:55]
A
So you may feel that way, but the courts didn't agree. They said it was fine to come in. And I agree with them because it goes directly to the motive of Temujin Kenzu, which was he was angry that Crystal left him, got with another man. And I think he likely suspected that she might be pregnant with his child, and he could not bear the idea of his child and his woman being taken away from him. And when you look at his behavior, I think, you know, there's a consistent possessiveness and violence toward women and men he sees as rivals or men that get in his way. That those are all documented. So. So on the one hand, the character stuff isn't just us saying, oh, because he's bad. It's. It's. It's directly relevant to what happened to Scott. It's directly relevant to the behavior that led up to Scott being murdered. And if you don't talk about it, then it doesn't make any sense. If you don't talk about the stalking and the threats that Kenzu made against.
- [28:54]
B
Scott to Crystal, you don't understand the murder. You don't understand what made the murder happen. It's. It's all context, which is necessary to understand it.
- [29:04]
A
Yes. And in addition to that, that's the case side. So that's where we're getting into the evidence side. In addition to that, the public has been subjected for decades to a narrative that Temujin Kenzu is just some, you know, cool karate, 1980s rock and roll guy who's just a good time and dude and everyone's having fun. That's not true. And we debunked that. And we interviewed people who actually knew him, and we've had some of them on the show and they were brave enough to share their experiences with the guy. And he has behaved monstrously and violently towards people for decades and has even continued to stalk some people behind bars. I would think that the person writing this email and that anybody who cares about this case would want to know about that. So at the very least, they can be aware of the behavior. And that's not us just saying, oh, he's guilty because of that. We're just informing you because that's not out there. We're the only ones who reported that. Okay. We're the only ones who dug into that. So, like, I mean, I, I, like, I don't know what to tell you at some point. Like, like, if some people, like, don't like their. I guess some people don't like that image of him being shattered, but that doesn't make it less true. And I think the truth is really important here. And if you're going to be acting like some guy is the saint and then he's got all of this history, and frankly, a lot of the history, too, is relevant to the case. And here's what I. Why I'll say this. For years, proponents Team Kenzu, as Kevin calls them, will have essentially tried to attack Crystal's credibility. They've said this girl got on the stand and she said he was a ninja and that he was abusing her and he was raping her. But, like, that's so outlandish. And listen, I'm not a person where I say, okay, just because someone makes a rape accusation, they should be believed inherently, no questions asked. I don't think that the system could account for that because some people do lie. I. So I'm just. That's my personal opinion. I think those lies are rare, but they do happen, and you have to go through the system properly. But. And like, if you have a situation where you have a guy who's great with everybody and then one person is saying, no, they were an abusive monster, I can understand why some people would be skeptical because it's like, well, there, listen, Ted Bundy was nice to some women and he didn't murder everyone who is with. But if something's such a bolt from the blue and such an aberration, and I can see where people can come in and say, well, that's hard to believe. Now, I personally believe that predators sometimes are selective about who they go after, but I can understand where people will be like, well, that's just out of nowhere. That's totally against this person's character in every other relationship they've been in. So a lot of people have used that kind of rhetoric to attack Crystal. But here's the thing. In our reporting, we found out that Crystal's experience was par for the course. Crystal went through what a number of other women went through. And those women speak to us from the commutation hearing that we have the transcript for. They speak to us from police reports, and they speak to us on our show talking about their experiences. So I think that is all directly relevant given that Crystal has been dragged through the mud for years and treated like she was just making up some fairy tale about him, when in fact, what she was saying was all very much in line with Temujin's documented behavior against every woman he ever dated.
- [32:36]
B
He had a history of violence. He had a history of making threats. There's been no evidence that there was anyone else in Scott's life who was violent or making threats. On top of that, we have witnesses I find reliable placing him at the crime scene. We have him making some comments that I found to be of incriminating nature to Crystal in a phone call. We covered all this in our episodes. So it's not just me saying, oh, I don't like him. He must be guilty.
- [33:08]
A
I think a lot of people don't listen to the episodes and they just kind of skim it or they read what other people say we said and they get mad about it. I really think there's not like a depth of. I mean, like, just what. Like there are some people who came into her, like, I'm really skeptical about this, guys. And then they Were like, okay, well now I'm undecided or no, actually I believe what you're like. I, I, I side with you now. So there's people like, who were open minded, who engaged with it, and then there's some people who just skim it and they get mad. And I would just encourage you listen to the whole episodes, like, listen to it. And if you feel like we're just going after his character, then I don't know what to tell you. I think a lot of it's directly relevant and I think a lot of it actually has nothing to do with his character. It's about our judgment of witnesses and who we find more reliable and who we found less reliable. But at the end of the day, I think it's very important for people to be aware that this man is an abuser. And I think it's been very harmful for his actual victims to have this guy celebrated in the press as some kind of, you know, peaceful guru who's just a fun guy, which has been the case for years. And all you've gotten is very vague allusions to, oh, I was a different person back then. I was a worse person back then. Well, what does that mean? That doesn't mean like doing drugs or partying or cheating on your girlfriend. That means beating people and trying to encourage your pregnant wife to kill herself with a sword. You know, like, this is bad stuff. And I, I, I think like, if you want to be upset with somebody, be upset with, I mean, like, this has been, we didn't like, open up this can of worms. The acolytes of Temujin Kenzu did by portraying him in a way that's not tethered to reality. They could have played it down the middle. They could have been open about some of this stuff and said, okay, well, he did this, this and this. But that doesn't mean he did that. They made this fair game for us to expose because we owe the public debunking lies. So I, I guess I'm just like, I don't, I don't feel like we're really at fault here for reporting some of this stuff. I feel like if you want to be mad, be mad at people who did not accurately put this out there. Like when you have like people writing like little like articles about, oh, he likes puppies. Oh, isn't he so charming? You know, like, I think, you know, that's not the whole story.
- [35:25]
B
Yeah, I'm not even paraphrasing that much. When I, when I was doing research for this. One of the articles I found was this guy saying, you know, I have some doubts about Temujin kinship. You know, he really loves puppies.
- [35:36]
A
It's. It's like. It's like, wow. I guess nobody, you know, he likes puppies. He doesn't really like women that much, though. I mean, like, it's. It's like the classic, you know, like Ted Bundy worked for, like, a crisis hotline. You know, bad people can own and enjoy and like dogs or certain people like, it just like the level of thinking here has just been so, I don't know, wild. It's like people are just grasping for anything. But I, again, I think, like, we're, you know, if you want to be mad about us having to put out some of the real stuff, then, you know, maybe be looking at why none of that came out earlier, you know, and that's, I think, maybe the answer. I guess I just like. Yeah, I just feel like sometimes people engage with this case in a. In a way that's like, you know, like we're penalized for coming out and saying our opinion that he's very much guilty. And we put out a lot of information about that, that some of it deals with his character and some of it doesn't. But, you know, maybe, like, why. Why was it okay for basically, literally everyone else who ever covered this to have their own opinion on it? You know, like, like, like, why is, you know, like, it's weird that we're singled out in that way.
- [36:52]
B
We're saying that because we have the different opinion.
- [36:53]
A
Yeah, it's just not logical.
- [36:56]
B
If a man murdered his wife and someone said, we know he had a history of domestic violence, no one would say, oh, that's.
- [37:02]
A
Oh, it's character evidence. It's like, yeah, it is, but it's actually relevant here. And we live in a world where, you know, things are not just happening in a vacuum. None of the stuff about him abusing other women came into trial as far as I remember.
- [37:17]
B
Yeah, that wasn't brought out until the commutation here.
- [37:19]
A
So it's not like it's a situation where it, you know, bias the jury. They heard about what he did to Crystal, but what he did to Crystal was directly relevant because he was effectively trying to control her by threatening and ultimately killing Scott. So that seems reasonable. It wouldn't have been reasonable if they'd said, look, he's been allowed to every woman he's ever been with. But that's not what happened. But that's what we're reporting now, because it's directly relevant to all of our understanding of this case.
- [37:44]
B
Shall I move on? Yes, Anya, related to your William and Mary connection, have you ever covered or looked into the Colonial Parkway murders? And let me jump in here very quickly to say, I was talking a moment ago about things I did before I met you. Before you met me, you were high up in the hierarchy of the William and Mary newspaper, and you used your vast power and influence in that position to make your colleagues on the newspaper do a true crime podcast about this case.
- [38:19]
A
I did. And I apologize to all of those people.
- [38:21]
B
Your first ever podcast, great effort. My only criticism is I think it needed more of you, and I think you needed, like, maybe an older male attorney to chime in from time to time.
- [38:34]
A
You know what? It would have been really creepy if you knew me in college and then got with me, so maybe not so. But I. Yeah, so I did. I did force my staff to do. I'm really surprised there wasn't any, like, Mutiny on the Bounty situation at some point. When I was in a leadership role on my college newspaper, I was the editor in chief. And I was a weird person. Still am, as you know. But I came into college and read the Flat Hat, which was the name of the newspaper, and I was like, I want to be editor in chief, and that. I just kind of worked toward that goal the whole time. A lot of moves I made were just specifically with that in mind. I don't know why. I just. I. I got. I was really into it and I loved. That was a great experience. But I did make everyone do a three part podcast on the Colonial Parkway murders. And she. She mentions the. You know, the. The way I kind of gave this to the staff was, you know, one of the victims was a William and Mary student, so Rebecca Dowski, Becky Dowski, she was 21. She was a student at William and Mary, and she and Kathy Thomas were the first two victims. And that was 1986. And, you know, one thing that's come out in the years since is that it seems like. And I could be wrong, but it almost seems like these. There's four cases that were originally linked to the Colonial Parkway murders. Seems like not all of them were actually connected. So that's interesting. And there have been big developments in. In recent years. I know. With David Nobling and Robin Edwards. They were found in 87 on the James river near Ragged Island. And the DNA there was matched to a man named Alan Wilmer who died in 2017. So I don't know, like, It's a tragic series of cases. As far as covering it again on the murder sheet now, I don't know. What do you think?
- [40:54]
B
I leave it to you. At one point, we talked about it. We actually spent part of our honeymoon in that area, and we went around and we recorded some audio of the different crime scenes with the anticipation that we would be covering at some point.
- [41:09]
A
Yeah, maybe. Maybe I'll go back to it. I just don't know. There's some things that, you know, I guess. I guess I. I guess, like, maybe.
- [41:20]
B
Okay.
- [41:21]
A
I mean, like, you know why there's certain things that make me ambivalent towards covering it again?
- [41:26]
B
I do.
- [41:27]
A
So I don't want to get into that, but I just, you know, I don't. I. I'm open to it potentially, but we'll just have to see. But thank you for your interest. And, yeah, I don't know if, like, I don't know if that podcast we did was. Is even still online. Do you remember?
- [41:44]
B
Well, I was able to track it down. There's like, some general podcast, like Flat Hat News or something like that, which has, like, 10,000 episodes or some ridiculously high amount of episodes, and you'd have to, like, scroll back through it for, like, you were in College, what, in 2002. So you have to scroll back through all these decades worth of podcasts.
- [42:07]
A
No. Yeah, no, actually, I got the link right now, and I could post it. I. I don't. I don't know if. I mean, I, I. I know the staff did a great job. I don't. I still feel bad again. I was just doing things. This is not a good leader where I'm just like, hey, guys, let's do a podcast. Drop everything. And I'm sure they probably wanted to kill me, so.
- [42:28]
B
I think they wanted to kill you more. Over. Can you talk about your Twitter project?
- [42:32]
A
Oh, my God, no. Why are you bringing that up? Why are you trying to hurt me? What the fuck is wrong with you? No, it's fine. We don't have to cut it. I once was like, hey, guys, let's jazz up our Twitter thing, and we can, like, pretend to be in a haunted house all night and be tweeting, oh, no, we're all dying. And we did. And for some reason, people listened to me, and it was really fun. But I think we, like, lost, like, 20 followers because they did, like, a.
- [42:56]
B
Hundred tweets that night. And early in our relationship, Anja says, oh, look at this. Isn't this funny? And it's a clip of her dying in a haunted house, pleading for her life. And I think, oh, yeah, Anya, that's hilarious.
- [43:09]
A
It is pretty funny.
- [43:09]
B
That's exactly what I'd like to see.
- [43:11]
A
Yeah. I was like, let's do a Halloween edition. It was a. It was a misfire, but it was creative. Oh, man.
- [43:20]
B
This is the natural segue, because now we're going into the personal part of the program, and that's also about William and Mary.
- [43:26]
A
Yeah. This person asked this question first, but I figured we. The other cases section came first. But this is. This is a quote. When I read your book, I discovered that Anya is a fellow alma mater of William and Mary in Virginia. Hark upon the Gale Woo Go tribe. And I learned you were.
- [43:44]
B
That was you. That wasn't part of the question.
- [43:45]
A
Yeah, no, sorry, that was me. This person asked a very sober and.
- [43:49]
B
Thoughtful question, very learned question.
- [43:51]
A
And I just started yelling, as usual.
- [43:53]
B
As you want to do.
- [43:54]
A
So, quote. And I learned you were the editor of the school paper, the Flathead. When was the genesis of your decision to pursue a career in journalism? How'd you end up at old W and M? Okay, great questions. I remember. I remember. What was it? There was. Oh, my gosh. Let me try to find this. I'm gonna get really nerdy about history for a second, so bear with me. So there was. People would often be like, anya, you're from New York. How'd you come to Virginia? And William and Mary. And I always. I always like to point out that a man named John Wickham, he was from Kutchog, New York, on Long island in Suffolk County. And he was probably best known for defending Vice President Aaron Burr at his treason trial, because, like, Aaron Burr tried to do kind of like James Bond villain things, kind of, and, like, start his own country. Maybe some people. It's controversial, but whatever. So Wickham is from New York, and went down to William and Mary. That was where he studied undergraduate. So I always like to throw him out there. Like, people have been doing it since the 1700s, but I was like a kid who was very nerdy. Still am. And I was very into academics. I was not the best student out there. I was like an A minus, B plus student. I'm just not that smart in math and science. And I applied to a lot of schools that I thought were very academic and didn't get into most of them. And William and Mary, for some reason, let me in. And I remember I got, you know, I got into a couple schools, and then I ended up visiting a Bunch of them. And I fell in love with William and Mary. I just felt like, oh, everyone here is, like, super nerdy, academic and very nice. And I just felt like I found my people and just kind of went there. And it was funny. Like, I thought I was, like, super academic and, like, whatever, like, during high school. But then getting to William and Mary, I was like, what? Most of these people are way smarter than me. And I ended up focusing a lot on. On the Flathead, actually, as I mentioned, when I got there, I was like, I'm gonna do this. I'm gonna be the editor. So it was great. It was a great experience. And I felt like, in terms of journalism. So that goes back to when I. I'm sorry. Like, the way. Give tmi. But when I was in eighth grade, like, seventh grade, eighth grade, ninth grade, I really developed a strong interest in writing. And I would write these, like, little novels and stuff and write fiction and do all sorts of things. And I loved writing. So I was like, journalism's a good career because I can write all the time and learn things. And, I mean, that's kind of a bad idea. Cause I'm also, like, super frigging awkward and took a long time to figure out how to talk to people. So it was kind of a struggle on that front. But as far as the writing side, I really liked it. And at the same time, if you remember 2007, 2008, the economy collapsed and, like, everyone lost jobs in journalism. So I always assumed, like, I would not be able to go into it because I would not be good enough to go into it. And I kind of went through college with that thing of, like, oh, this is my last chance to do journalism. But by doing that and by investing so heavily in just doing journalism at the college and being the editor and all that stuff, that was pretty much, like, the one skill I developed. So I think I kind of was forced to do it. But for a while there, I tell people, I don't know if I want to go into journalism. I'd like to, but I don't think I'll get a job. And ultimately, I was able to, and I'm very fortunate for that. And. And it. It's been a blast. But I think I was kind of, like, a little bit like, oh, I probably should do something else, because I probably won't get hired. But, you know, it was. It was fun. I. I remember talking to a Flathead alumni at, like, our media Day, and then being like, well, enjoy it, because this is, like, the last time you'll ever work for yourself. And I've been like, yeah. And now I do it again. So sometimes I think and I'm like, it was a. It was a great preparation for that. And it was. It's a fun school. You know, it's. It's very. It's. It's like you just deal with so many smart people in all these different ways, and it's just. It was a blast. And I met some really great friends there. And, you know, I really fell in love with Virginia, to be honest. Like, I was like, I still, like, I remember, like, reading some of, like, the historical writings on Virginia. And like, before you go there, you're like, okay, calm down. And then, like, I go there now I sound like that. I'm like, it's so beautiful. There's something in the air there that I just love. And just a fascinating history. Like, the history of William and Mary itself is crazy and, like, very dark. Like just bad stuff that they were doing to people and just horrible. But I still love it. So thanks for your question. And yeah, I guess I kind of like messed around until I just found a career in journalism. And yeah, my obsessiveness with the flat hat was from freshman year onward. Like, I was just trying to do chess moves to take over it. And I, I think, I think my tenure was. I remember one time one of the administrators was like, anya, you. You sure write a lot for the editor in chief. Because usually the editor in chief wasn't writing. So I was like, okay, I guess I'm a bit of an egomaniac because I still want to write, but, you know, I had a great time. Did you do your. You didn't do college newspaper?
- [49:18]
B
Did not do my college newspaper. I did my high school newspaper.
- [49:21]
A
Okay, that's. That's fun.
- [49:22]
B
That's something.
- [49:23]
A
That's something. Yeah. I was editor in chief of our online high school newspaper where I was a bit of a. I was. I was railing against a lot of things.
- [49:33]
B
I wasn't an editor. I was. I was just a grunt.
- [49:35]
A
You're a grunt.
- [49:37]
B
I was just the average Joe, one of the many fine staff writers of the Columbus East Oracle. That's what we called ourselves. The Oracle.
- [49:45]
A
Nice. We were the Bronxville High School Echo and then the Bronxville High School Mirror was the print one. I didn't do that. The online people were a little bit more forward thinking.
- [49:55]
B
Ah, I see, I see.
- [49:58]
A
I remember writing a whole editorial and being like, the graduation party is too expensive. I don't know. I was Coming. I was coming out hot. Coming out hot about everything.
- [50:08]
B
You try to do some, like, clickbaity things.
- [50:09]
A
I wasn't clickbaiting. I was like one of those. Like, I thought I was like, one of those muckrakers, like, back in the. You know, back in the day, where I'm just, like, railing against.
- [50:17]
B
So you're like, the elites. You're like Lincoln Steffens, only you're talking about people throwing parties for the loved ones.
- [50:22]
A
Yeah, but, like, why should the classmates all have to pay 200 to go to one? That seems a bit, you know, exclusionary, in my opinion.
- [50:30]
B
Yeah, I did. I didn't have that experience.
- [50:32]
A
No.
- [50:32]
B
Well, I went to no parties in high school.
- [50:34]
A
I went to no parties, too.
- [50:36]
B
I went to one.
- [50:37]
A
I went to a couple. At one friend's house. But, like, I. I didn't. Yeah, I was not. I. I was very shy in high school.
- [50:45]
B
I went to. I. I was in. In a. A couple of plays, and I went to a cast party for one of the plays. I remember that.
- [50:51]
A
Wow. Theater kid. Like many lawyers. All right, so what.
- [50:59]
B
What are some of your holiday traditions?
- [51:04]
A
Midnight mass, matching jammies, special baking. None of those.
- [51:08]
B
So that was part of the question that I was. I was skipping over, but that wasn't.
- [51:13]
A
We don't have any matching jammies. Although I think that's really adorable when families do that. But we don't do that right now. I. Special baking. I want to get into that.
- [51:22]
B
So Kevin's mom, she makes great Christmas cookies. They don't last long.
- [51:27]
A
She's like, I. I. This is gonna sound bad, and I know your mom's listening, so I apologize in advance, but I mean this in the most complimentary way. These are, like. She's like the Walter White of baking. These specific. They're addictive. And it's what, like, I like. It unlocks our reptile brains in a way where, like, oh, these are. These are good. And then, like, 15 minutes, you're like, where are the More. I need more cookies. Like, it's like, I don't know what she's doing. It's amazing. I'm in awe. So that, like, we more rely on her. Although I'm hoping I can be the, you know, the Jessie to her Walt to learn about how to make these things. And I think if she started selling these, like, it would be crazy. She's. I mean, they're just. They're addictive. I mean, I hate to say that, because I am an addict, but there's, like, something really, really crazy about them. I've never had cookies like that before. What about you?
- [52:20]
B
I, I enjoy the cookies as a.
- [52:22]
A
You go nuts for them too.
- [52:23]
B
Yeah, I, I, I was only introduced to you to them.
- [52:26]
A
Yeah, they're really good. So that's the special baking. Um, unfortunately, because of, we've been so busy basically since we've gotten together, we like haven't really been very good about establishing some fun holiday traditions of our own. So this is the first year that we decorated for the holidays. We decorated, we got the Christmas tree. Kevin wanted to get a real Christmas tree. I wasn't as crazy about that and I wanted to get an artificial one. So we got two, we got two. So we got an artificial one that we'll have every year and then we got the real Christmas tree. And so now we have, that's why we have a tree in our office, which is the artificial one, and then another one in our living room. So we kind of went a little all out this year I think because we.
- [53:07]
B
You started using a holiday simmer pot.
- [53:10]
A
I started throwing some cloves, some cinnamon, some orange peels in a simmer pot and make it smell really nice in the house. Very festive. And I just went all out with the decorations this year, you know, so I just, that is, that's the start of it. Although I would love to hear about all of your holiday traditions. So I can steal some of the, some of them. But I, I, yeah, in the past we were not a midnight mass family, we were a Christmas Eve mass family. We were not, there's also Christmas day people, but we would go to mass on Christmas Eve and, and then kind of we would do Christmas Eve at my parents house and then my grandma's house, my grandparents house, Christmas Day. And that was always very fun. But for us now, I don't know, we're gonna have to make some new traditions.
- [53:57]
B
I grew up in a church where for Christmas Eve you'd have a candlelight service, where at the end of the service everybody would gather in a big circle or something in the dark church and somebody would light a candle and everybody would be holding candles and a circle of light is created. And I remember at some point as a child I noticed that these candles, they had holders around them so you don't get wax on yourself. So I'm a tough guy, I can deal with a little bit of wax. And so it was always my, my holiday Christmas tradition as a child to get burned with hot candle wax.
- [54:36]
A
What are you like G. Gordon Liddy or something? Wasn't he doing stuff with fire.
- [54:40]
B
Yeah. Not with candle wax, though.
- [54:43]
A
It all sounds kind of weird. Tough guy for Christ.
- [54:49]
B
I think they still do that, but I've not been to that service for quite a while.
- [54:52]
A
Yeah, no, I, I, I remember me and my sis. This is, this is gonna sound really weird, but me and my sister, when we were little, we there, our crush figures and the tivity scene figures were plastic, so we would just use them as, like, like action figures. And so I, I remember when I was, like, four, we'd be like, like, like, it would be like the, the holy family has to run from a tidal wave. We would have so much fun with those. So I don't know, like, we were just weird kids. But I also love watching those, like, Rankin Bass movies and, but my big, one of the big ones that I loved, I loved Rudolph. I loved all the classics. We loved the Year Without a Santa Claus. That one was crazy. And I also really liked Mr. Magoo's Christmas Carol, which is really weird because Mr. Magoo is, like, a Broadway star, and they're just performing the Christmas Carol and, like, it's a play within a movie. It's, it's, it's really. But, like, I think it's, like, really good.
- [55:53]
B
Talking about church reminds me this is more of an Easter thing. And we may have mentioned this on the show before, but I remember you telling me that a very confused young Anya noted that someone you knew, an adult you knew, was talking about Christ's crucifixion.
- [56:10]
A
Oh, do you want me to tell this?
- [56:11]
B
Yeah.
- [56:11]
A
Okay. So I remember going with. I don't want to name names. Someone I knew. It was someone who was taking care of me when I was a little, like, like, little kid. And I'm talking about really little. I feel like I probably, I, I don't know, like, very, like, toddler stage. But I remember going with her, and they had this, like, big pieta out front. I'm Catholic.
- [56:33]
B
What's a pieta?
- [56:34]
A
Pieta is the, is a, is the, is the traditional pose of where Mary is holding Jesus's body after he's been crucified. And so I remember this person, like, apologizing to Jesus, like, I'm so sorry. And I remember I, I still, I still vividly remember this. I remember being like, what did, what did you have to do with this? Like, I almost, like, got suspicious of, like, did you do something to Jesus? Like, were you part of.
- [56:59]
B
So you.
- [57:00]
A
What happened to him?
- [57:01]
B
You were already thinking, like, a true crime podcast.
- [57:03]
A
I was like, I Was already true crime brained as like a. I remember being like, I need to look into this. Like, how crazy is that? I was a really weird kid. But yeah, I remember. I remember being like, that's. That's a little bit concerning.
- [57:20]
B
Anya. You, Anya Cain, stranded on a desert island, lifetime supply of one condiment. What do you choose?
- [57:30]
A
I've been stressing out about this question since I saw it. I'm not gonna lie. I've been stressing out because like, here's the thing. Do I really want just a raw condiment that's just like alone without any good food to go with it? No, I don't. That doesn't sound good. Like.
- [57:45]
B
So you would choose death over the condiment?
- [57:47]
A
No, I'm gonna. I'm gonna tell you what condiment is my favorite. But I'm just saying in this context, what. I just get airdropped a bunch of this, you know, they. They throw it out of a plane and. And what's that gonna do for me? Because I got. I don't have anything to put it on.
- [57:59]
B
But it's just a clever stressing out. It is just a clever and witty way of asking. Of asking what your favorite condom is.
- [58:08]
A
I just like have, like. I was really. Don't take it. I was into. I was really into law. So I'm imagining like what would they. Would the. Would the group judge me in a lost context? If I was just going.
- [58:18]
B
It's just. It's just a fun and clever way to ask you what your favorite condiment is.
- [58:22]
A
I know my. I think I really like sour cream. I think that's a big one for me. I don't know if that's controversial. I'm sorry if it is. But I dig that one. And I'd be curious if anyone else has anything that they want to weigh in on.
- [58:34]
B
Does Big Mac sauce, does that count as a condiment?
- [58:38]
A
Oh my God. Do you want to tell them about your like friggin experiments in the kitchen with that? Oh yeah.
- [58:43]
B
I. You mean making Big Mac sauce?
- [58:45]
A
Yes. That was a whole obsession in this household for a while.
- [58:49]
B
And it turned out pretty well.
- [58:51]
A
It turned out okay.
- [58:52]
B
Yeah. Thank you. So I go with Big Mac sauce.
- [58:55]
A
Is that a condiment? I. I listen, I like. I like ketchup. I like mustard. I just. I like. I feel like I just get excited about sour cream.
- [59:04]
B
You get excited about sour cream? Well, whenever I have thrills you. It's a special treat.
- [59:08]
A
It's just a nice. I'm like, it's. It's Very versatile. It's versatility.
- [59:12]
B
So I say anya sour cream. You squeal like a child.
- [59:15]
A
No, I don't say.
- [59:16]
B
You said you get excited about it. It's pretty strong words.
- [59:19]
A
Would you get out of here? Oh my God. I'd be curious about what you guys like. Okay, somebody just says this. The open ended. I want to hear more about Lanny. Actually, they said Laney and then spelling it's L, A, N, I. Right? Yeah.
- [59:40]
B
That's awesome.
- [59:40]
A
Unless I've been spelling your name wrong all these years, that would be embarrassing.
- [59:43]
B
But I was the one. I got it before I knew you. And I thought it would be fun to have a dog for some reason. One night I had a dream that I had a dog named Lanolin, which I always thought that's a good sounding name. So I named the dog Lanolin.
- [60:00]
A
I mean, sheep's fat.
- [60:01]
B
That's a bit of a mouthful. See, I like naming a dog a name that you're not going to have a lot of other people having that name for a dog. I had another dog earlier on in my life named Trellis. So I named this dog Lanolin. Bit of a mouthful. So we call her Lani.
- [60:17]
A
Do you want to explain where you got her? And this is a joke that we have because I always expect. So she's from the Lafayette area and she was loose and wandering and then went to some shelters around the Indianapolis area, was in a kill shelter, managed to con her way out of that situation and then get adopted by Kevin. But I always thought it was funny. She's actually from near Delphi and she's.
- [60:46]
B
Indirectly responsible for us meeting.
- [60:48]
A
Yeah. But I will say this. Like when we went, I always expected. I always like kind of have the vague suspicion that like she did crimes somehow up there and that we like go into because we. We've been into the Indiana State Police post up in Lafayette to give a statement and I was. Was like looking at the boards, expected to see like a wanted poster. Not a lost dog poster, just like a straight up wanted for like bank robbery poster of her. Because I feel like she's done some stuff.
- [61:12]
B
But yeah, I was walking Lanny once when the roads were very, very icy. She sees something, maybe a leaf, maybe a hallucination.
- [61:23]
A
Maybe she just wanted to hurt you.
- [61:24]
B
And she takes off and I end up falling. And the way I land, I grievously injure my shoulder. Had had surgery, surgery which kind of sidelined me for a while. And I got bored and somehow drifted back into the Burger Chef case, which Ultimately led me to your arms.
- [61:45]
A
Thanks, Lani. Lani.
- [61:48]
B
Lani's. She's getting up there in age, so we are going to appreciate whatever time we have left with her. Take her to the vet even today.
- [61:56]
A
Yeah, she's got kind of a cough, so we're a little bit worried. But, um, she's very happy. She's having a good time. The thing about Lanny that's interesting with her personality. I've never really had a dog like this before, but she really loves to meet new people to the point where she gets bored of you. Like, and when we. When I first met her, like, she was like, it was amazing. And she was like, you're my favorite person. I was like, oh my God, I'm so flattered. But then once she gets used to you, she's like, eh, whatever. Let's go meet some other people. So she loves going on her walks. She's like the mayor of our neighborhood and she likes to meet people and. And have a good time. So she's. She's very sociable and she's. She's like a very much an extroverted do. She. She's definitely more like interested in what's new and what's. She's addicted to novelty.
- [62:37]
B
So she's kind of like you.
- [62:38]
A
No, but, like, I don't.
- [62:39]
B
I don't think you got bored of me long ago.
- [62:41]
A
Oh my God, that's not true. I. She's. She's not like. Like, I think of like, we. There's this show in Canada called the Littlest Hobo, which is about a German shepherd that travels around Canada having adventures and meeting new people every day. And it's got kind of a depressing theme song. And I feel like that is what she wants out of life. She can't have that because she would probably die. But I think that would have been her ideal life. Just going from town to town fugitive style. A show that's kind of basically set in Lafayette and. Or starts out in Lafayette at least, and going around and having adventures and meeting new people every day. But we try to at least take her out a lot so she can get part of that without necessarily the dangerous aspect. But she's a very sweet dog and we're gonna, you know, as you said, we're gonna enjoy the time we have left with her.
- [63:33]
B
Yeah. This next question, before I ask, has a little bit to do about food and before I dump it out. I've been trying to get through this combination of grape juice and coke. Why don't you Take a sip of it.
- [63:47]
A
I don't want. Oh.
- [63:48]
B
Give the people what you think of it. What do you think?
- [63:53]
A
It's fine.
- [63:54]
B
Tastes kind of like a flat grape soda. Yeah, I don't really taste the coke in there.
- [63:59]
A
It's fine. I mean, it's not, it's not bad, but I don't want to taste Co Cola. Cola and grape together.
- [64:06]
B
Anya, what's your go to midnight snack?
- [64:10]
A
I, I, if I eat. This is a really boring answer. If I eat too late, it's not going to be, not gonna be a good situation for me.
- [64:17]
B
Why don't we widen it?
- [64:18]
A
What are some of your favorite snack? My, my current night snack is I will make some hot chocolate. Because it's winter, I'll make some hot chocolate, put some whipped cream on it, have a little decadent evening beverage. That's my, that's my night beverage. Back when I was an active alcoholic and I was drunk, any cheese in my path would have been, you know, in danger. That was what I would go for the cheese.
- [64:43]
B
But now, when you go on walks, do you often see cheese in your path?
- [64:47]
A
No, I just mean, like at my house.
- [64:49]
B
Ah.
- [64:49]
A
Like if I had cheese and I came home drunk, I'd be like, but, but, yeah, but now it's more of the hot chocolate. I enjoy that. It makes me feel all cozy inside.
- [65:00]
B
I enjoy anything that has sugar, but no chocolate. Those, those are my go to snacks. So I cast a wide snack neck. Is that fair to say?
- [65:11]
A
You're often experimenting with different strange, obscure, chewy candies. Again, banana stuff. I'm like, what is this?
- [65:20]
B
As long as it has a lot of sugar and no chocolate, I'll give it a try.
- [65:26]
A
And he has these obsessions. He'll be like, oh, I love these old old bay goldfish. And he'll get really into that for a while and then it'll get really into something else. And like, if you mention a food to him, oh, we're gonna do that. If he's obsessed with it and he just bounces from thing to thing.
- [65:41]
B
Yeah. Joy, Circus peanuts. As long as they don't have red 40 yet.
- [65:46]
A
They have red 40, then you get a headache.
- [65:47]
B
And my nighttime beverage of choice lately has been, of course, non alcoholic butterscotch beer.
- [65:54]
A
Nice. From Costco.
- [65:56]
B
Anya, do you have a bucket list location you would love to travel to, but have not?
- [66:03]
A
And the next question is, when. When we do our couples vacation, where are we going? Lol. So for, for travel locations that I haven't been to, but I'd love To go to. I. I guess I gotta say Italy.
- [66:16]
B
I'd love to go to Rome.
- [66:17]
A
Yeah, Rome. I love the Roman Republic and the Roman Empire, but also the Roman Republic. And I love the history. And I want to go to the Vatican. I think that'd be really cool. So, yeah, like, I think Italy.
- [66:32]
B
Yeah. Pompeii stuff.
- [66:33]
A
Oh, yeah, Pompeii. Man, that'd be cool.
- [66:34]
B
Yeah, I'll adopt those answers.
- [66:36]
A
Cue the Bastille song.
- [66:41]
B
So we've been trying to figure out a couple's vacation.
- [66:44]
A
Yeah, we have.
- [66:45]
B
But easier said than done.
- [66:46]
A
Vacations are really expensive and, like, life is really expensive right now. So I'm like, you know, it. I feel like a lot of people are in this boat right now. Like, we're all kind of trying to save some money.
- [66:56]
B
I feel like people have ideas. I'd love to hear them.
- [66:58]
A
Yeah. About saving money and vacations. I'd be curious because I have our own little interests, but always looking for different stuff. Somebody asked, what songs do you associate with? 2025. Do you have any that you associate with this past year?
- [67:16]
B
So most of the music I like and listen to the most was recorded long, long ago.
- [67:24]
A
You can still say it.
- [67:26]
B
Like, I enjoy Frank Sinatra, Broadway, Bing Crosby. In terms of music that was actually released this year, I enjoyed Bruce Springsteen's tracks box set of some of his lost albums. And I also enjoyed. He put out an expanded edition of Nebraska, which is probably his finest album. Album.
- [67:51]
A
So that's your favorite album by him?
- [67:53]
B
Yeah, I'd say so. Or Western Stars. What's your favorite Springsteen album?
- [67:58]
A
Tunnel of Love. Didn't you say, like, that came out and everyone's like, oh. Because he had just gotten married and.
- [68:06]
B
He just got married and he did an album about how tough relationships are.
- [68:10]
A
Oh, man. Well, we.
- [68:12]
B
We better imagine what people would think.
- [68:13]
A
Can you imagine what would be like our tunnel of love where people like, oh, no, we're never gonna to do that. But yeah, love. Ton of love. Love. That's a. Got some fun.
- [68:27]
B
So what songs do you, Anya Kane, associate with? 2025.
- [68:32]
A
I think I told you guys that my song that I like, I like, cried because we. We were driving away from Delphi at the biscuit shop. Buttermilk Biscuit Co. I just. For a wonderful book signing. They're an amazing company. Go get their biscuits. Best biscuits I've ever had. But we drove out of there and I'd always kind of thought of this one song where I was like, oh, that's going to play in my head. As we walk away from Delphi. And then it didn't because, like, we were still in it because we were writing the book. And it was almost like just this weird catharsis. But it was called I Don't Live Here Anymore by the War on Drugs. It came out in 21. It's really. I love that song, but it's like, you know, kind of about moving on from stuff, I guess. But I feel like on some level, we'll never move on from Delphi. But it was. It was just funny because it just happened to be playing on the car radio as we were driving away one day, and we were literally crossing like that at. At those train tracks. And I was like, are you kidding me? And I'm like crying while driving, crying like a baby. But I think for me, the. My personal theme song of, like, I guess 2025 has been. And this is also a song that is played a lot on the radio when. When we've been driving around doing stuff. And this is not a recent song. It's from 1997, but it's by the wall flowers and it's called One Headlight. I feel like that song captures some of the. That 2025 is that it's like, this is a shit show, but we're still going. That's my. That's my song of 2025.
- [70:01]
B
And I'm going to say this. You got one of those Spotify rap things where it lists, like, the music you listen to most this year, and you were talking about this with one of your dear friends, and both of you saying, well, I didn't listen to this song that much as much as they say they did, but you did.
- [70:17]
A
I don't remember doing that. So my Spotify wrapped my. And I wasn't embarrassed about getting this because I really like this artist a lot, but I was surprised. My number one artist for 2025 was Taylor Swift. And I listened to Torture Poets Department a lot. I. I didn't listen to Life of a Showgirl as much. I liked some of the songs on the album, but it just. I didn't. I just didn't listen to it as much. So I was surprised that. But it. For a while it was. It looked like they did this whole race graphic where it was like, there's the artists are speeding along, and it was her and Lady Gaga. Those were the two ones that were kind of the competing. But she won. I was just a little bit surprised because I just felt like I'd kind of dropped off of in. In recent Times. But no, that was cool. I love Taylor Swift, so wasn't upset about that, but I was then I was like, trying to figure out, I'm like, some of these songs I was listening to a lot. I was just like, I think I was just like, listening to on repeat at some point. I do that. Like, I don't know if anyone else does that, but, like, you just almost like, have a song you like and then you kind of like, wear it out for a while, then you rediscover it later on.
- [71:25]
B
We haven't really been to any concerts for a while, have we?
- [71:27]
A
No, we haven't. It's been a while since we've been to a concert. We should see if there's anything cool happening. I don't know. I know I'm not very hip with the music.
- [71:36]
B
Yeah, you don't dig it. We already have three tickets for three events in 2026, but they're all comedian, I think Jimmy Pardo. We're gonna see John Mulaney. And I've gotten really hooked to an embarrassing extent on this thing called On Cinema.
- [71:58]
A
Oh, yeah, you're a fucking obsessive at this point.
- [72:00]
B
And, and the On Cinema guys are coming to do what they're now calling a farewell tour. And so we're going to one of those shows.
- [72:07]
A
They're really funny. They're, they do the most apt comedy about content creation that I've ever seen in my life. And it's like, makes me disturbed sometimes because I'm like, oh, God, is this come across?
- [72:18]
B
And then it just gets crazier and crazier and crazier. So, yeah, it's hard to describe. I, I, I went way down the, the rabbit hole with this thing.
- [72:31]
A
I, I love it. And I should say, speaking of Spotify wrapped, thank you so much to everyone where we came in first or, or within the top, top couple of your podcasts. It meant a lot. We were really excited. They asked us to do a little video to say hi to you all. So I hope you enjoyed this. And we just, we realized later we were both, like, wearing black and like, kind of depressing.
- [72:51]
B
So in the corner of the screen, for some reason, randomly, the train whistle.
- [72:54]
A
Oh, yeah, the train whistle. That was kind of awkward, but yeah, I just appreciate all of you. Thank you so much. So one question we got is, what will you be working on in 2026? Any new books in the works?
- [73:08]
B
Oh, you've skipped ahead.
- [73:09]
A
Yeah, I'm going to do that one first and then we'll go back.
- [73:11]
B
Okay, okay. What will you be working on in 2026? Any new books in the works?
- [73:16]
A
There's no new book officially in the works.
- [73:18]
B
Well, I'll tell you that our agent has been encouraging us to talk with him about some of our different ideas for a variety of things. And he said, why don't we talk in January? So I said January 31st, to give us the most time possible because I'm a child in many respects. So we will be talking with our agent at the end of January about different ideas we have for some projects.
- [73:47]
A
Yeah. And there's some we're really excited about. The thing about books is that there has to be a certain alchemy. There has to be, like, a very good, interesting case that you can tell a story around, but there also has to be access to where you can do it justice. So it's one thing for people, you know, like, you might. I might say, oh, this case would be really cool to write a book about, but we don't know anyone in it. No one's talked to us. We'd have to get access. That's not even a guarantee. So there's always kind of a. Like a balance between what would be cool to do and what you're actually capable of doing, if that makes sense. And so there's a couple ones that are on different sides of the spectrum with that.
- [74:26]
B
And you can probably guess what some of them might be. Yeah, it would be on our list.
- [74:29]
A
You could probably guess what some of them are once one person from Patreon asked. Asked. You've both mentioned that you write fiction. As a fellow writer, I want to hear all about it. What are you working on now? Are you working on novels or short stories? Do you plan to get. Try to get published, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera? All the nerdy details, please. Oh, you're so sweet to ask that. Thank you. And. And now I want to hear about what you're working on, too. So DM us, but you go first. I've always, as I mentioned earlier in this, I've always wanted to write and have always been drawn to writing. I think an episode actually came out this week, was the week we're recording this, where I revealed, embarrassingly, that I actually wrote fan fiction as a teenager. So that's fun.
- [75:13]
B
And it was good fan fiction. I enjoyed it.
- [75:15]
A
Stop revealing that it exists, you fool.
- [75:21]
B
It's quite good. I. I enjoyed it.
- [75:23]
A
It's. I want to also clarify something. People think fanfiction means, like, inappropriate, smutty stuff. And that's fine for people who do that. That's wonderful. Good for you. That's not what I was writing. I was writing the Beatles have Fun Adventures Together and it was all very clean and there was no sex. And so I just want to be clear about that.
- [75:43]
B
Despite that, it was still good.
- [75:47]
A
It was fun to write it, but. And I think it actually taught me, like, taught me some like, rules of storytelling in a weird way. Like, I feel like it made my writing better in a weird way. But yeah, so I, I, like, I have a problem where, and Kevin can attest to this, that I always think of a lot of different ideas and I have a hard time focusing on any one specific one. I'll have one and then I'll write it down. I'll get all excited about it and kind of burn out and then move on to the next thing. So I have like an attention deficit problem when it comes to fiction and what I'm currently working on without going into any level of too much details to avoid embarrassing myself. But it's like basically a murder mystery. Is that what you would say?
- [76:32]
B
Yeah, with some delightful and charming characters and the padded and Anya Cain touch.
- [76:37]
A
What did the Anya Cain touch?
- [76:39]
B
Clever, articulate and witty.
- [76:41]
A
Oh, you're sweet. He's just buttering me up. And it's working. But it's a murder mystery. It's a historical mystery set in the past and it's a bit about journalism as well. And so it's, it's fun. It's, it's. For a while there I felt like I lost the ability to write fiction. And for a while there I was actually working on something where it was basically like a case that gets. Murder case that gets totally out of control and becomes this insane online disaster with all this stuff. Not that that would ever happen in real life, obviously, but that got too heavy because I was like, I just went through this. I can't write this. So I switched to something a little bit more like, like more, I guess, like it's not cozy, I would say. But it's, it's definitely less real. But it was, but it's been fun. And so, yeah, that's what I'm working on. But I, I think I have too many ideas.
- [77:39]
B
No, you have great ideas.
- [77:40]
A
My ideas are all kind of stupid, but I try to execute them.
- [77:43]
B
She. She has never had.
- [77:44]
A
Remember that short story I told you about?
- [77:46]
B
She's never had a stupid idea in her life.
- [77:48]
A
I tend to like writing more novel length stuff. I've. I've completed a couple Never published them. I will say this, though, like. Do you remember that short story I told you about when we first met?
- [77:58]
B
Yes.
- [77:58]
A
And Kevin confessed to me later that he thought it was the dumbest sounding thing in the world. But you said I pulled it off pretty well.
- [78:04]
B
Are you gonna tell them the idea?
- [78:06]
A
No, I don't.
- [78:08]
B
You can't. You can't give them that lead and then I sound bad. Oh, Kevin didn't like the idea.
- [78:15]
A
It's basically a horror story where a people are trying to. Well, it's about Virginia. People are trying to start a colony and the ground is literally eating people. That's what it's about.
- [78:30]
B
She pulled it off.
- [78:31]
A
Brielle, you said that sounds like a bad B movie, and it is, but. So that's. That's. Yeah. Novels. I think I would be really interested in trying to get fiction published. I'm. It's a little hard to put yourself out there with that because when you're talking about a story that really happens, it's like, okay, this is what really happened. We're giving you information, but fiction is something so personal, it's just coming from your own weird mind. So I'm a little nervous to put it out there on some level, I think, because I worry. I. I fear rejection.
- [79:01]
B
Are you going to bring it up in our meeting with our agent in January?
- [79:05]
A
I guess we'll see how far along I am. But perhaps. I mean, I don't need.
- [79:09]
B
I'd encourage you to.
- [79:10]
A
I just. It just like I. When you have something you want so badly, it's difficult to then take a plunge. That's where I am, so.
- [79:21]
B
But obviously it's never gonna happen unless you take a plunge.
- [79:24]
A
I know, but I think.
- [79:26]
B
I think. I think you're doing great work.
- [79:28]
A
I don't think it's that good. I think it's kind of silly. But Kevin likes it, so that makes me happy.
- [79:33]
B
Something can be silly and also just a delightful entertainment.
- [79:37]
A
I think the thing I'm working on now is like, wow, this woman watched way too many old movies. It's like that kind of mystery.
- [79:46]
B
So I have the opposite problem from Anya. I mean, I'm lucky to get an idea every couple years. Is that fair?
- [79:53]
A
True. That's true. You have some really good ideas.
- [79:56]
B
So I'm working on something that I got an idea for. It has nothing to do with Delphi, but in some ways it's inspired by my experiences in Delphi. I mentioned, I think in our earlier Q and A episode, some of what I saw disillusioned me about humanity. And so it's, It's. That's what it's about. It's kind of about a murder and some bad things happening. And unlike Anya's story, I don't think there's any, like, fun people in mind.
- [80:29]
A
Yours is a lot. It's very tragic, but in a really propulsive and good way. And it's also very real. Sometimes I feel like I sugarcoat things within my fiction because I'm like, trying to make myself happier, whereas you're just like, no, this is the real shit. It's very. It's like, there's so much drama, but also like, it's very human. Like, I love. Kevin's writing is great and I love his. His take on the world.
- [80:52]
B
So I'll, I'll probably show that and mention that to the agent. He might like, it might laugh in my face.
- [80:59]
A
He might cut off contact with us.
- [81:01]
B
Might use it for toilet paper while he is putting your manuscript behind gold frames.
- [81:05]
A
I don't think that's gonn happen. I think yours is better than mine and it's more propulsive. I feel like mine. Suddenly we're getting really, like, in the weeds about, like, how did elevators work back then? You know, like, that's not what anybody wants. Or like, hey, like, I like the questions you end up having. Like, you know, how would, how would this work? You know, it's just like, it just gets, you know, it gets stupid. But yours is, yours is really good. Yours is very propulsive and it's very, like, it's very contemporary and fast paced and really gripping.
- [81:33]
B
So we're having bitter behind the scenes arguments about whose work is better. Yeah, I maintain that Anya is the artiste.
- [81:41]
A
No, that's not true. But I appreciate it.
- [81:43]
B
It's true that I maintain it and.
- [81:45]
A
I do maintain it, but you're.
- [81:46]
B
And I do believe it.
- [81:47]
A
You're wrong. So do you want to move on to the next question now? They've been really nerdy about that.
- [81:52]
B
Sure.
- [81:53]
A
So thank you for the question. And then Facebook user asks, what are your long term professional and personal goals now that you've grown from the foundations of your respective careers, met one another, enjoyed success with podcasting, journalism and authoring a book. What might be next? What might be the next big goals? What might the future hold?
- [82:11]
B
I'm curious about this myself. So lay it on us.
- [82:14]
A
P.S. winning the lottery slash early retirement. Leaving us all high and dry is not an option. Lol. Okay, I'm curious.
- [82:20]
B
What. What is next for us?
- [82:21]
A
Anya, that's a great question. First of all, thank you, that's very kind. I think we'd like to write more books and have book writing be something that we incorporate as part of our job. I think that'd be cool to do both the podcast and books. Occasionally podcasts punctuated by some books and those. I would love to do fiction at some point if I ever stop being a coward about it.
- [82:47]
B
I mean, other people listening, they've heard some of your writing because on the show they know you're great. People encourage this woman.
- [82:55]
A
No, don't encourage me because I don't know, I just, I, I just, I, I, I just worry like, you know, you just like, I don't want to be cringy. I don't know, I guess I, I'll do it but like, I just, I get so nervous about it but. Because again, like when you really want something, it just becomes like it takes on a life of its own. I, I think though, love to do more books, non fiction books together. I imagine we would want to write together still, even. Yeah, we got through the Delphi case.
- [83:26]
B
So fiction, not getting divorced.
- [83:28]
A
So we're, we're solid on anything.
- [83:29]
B
So fiction would probably be wr. Nonfiction still probably together, I would imagine because I think we have different styles in fiction.
- [83:37]
A
That's right. We do have different styles.
- [83:39]
B
We've written some things together, but we're probably never published those, at least under our own names.
- [83:45]
A
Those are really nerdy. Those are like crazy nerdy. I think we would have to publish under a pseudonym. But yeah, no, I think that'll be fun. And I think more books, I'll just.
- [83:58]
B
Say about those that we wrote together in the past. Past. Those are kind of, would you say, historical fan fiction?
- [84:04]
A
Yes, very historical.
- [84:06]
B
Enough said.
- [84:08]
A
The less said about that, the better. I would say that like for me with the podcast, I'd like to, I'd like to jump on another trial or jump in another case. I'd like to do something that's sort of like maybe we can kind of really delve deep into. I don't know what that case is. I know some people are probably frustrated us like do another Delphi. It's like, it's just, I don't, I don't know what the right case for us is.
- [84:38]
B
I, I feel we've been so focused on content that we don't really understand a lot about podcasting and people sometimes would say, oh, why don't you do this for Spotify? Or why don't you do this for YouTube? And I think we need to make an effort in the new year to maybe do some of those things.
- [84:55]
A
Do more on video, do more on TikTok, do more on YouTub, do more on whatever.
- [84:59]
B
Like does it Spotify, have some sort of video thing?
- [85:02]
A
Yeah, I'd like to grow as a podcast and meet and meet new people and bring more people into the fold. And I think that means meeting people where they are with some of these things and trying to be more open to, you know, we're two people, so we can kind of be brittle where it's like, okay, this is how we've always done it, so we're going to do it this way. But I think we need to be more open to change and growing in that, in that manner. I think that would be really cool. So maybe doing more video content, maybe doing more YouTube things that allow for video, whatever. Maybe some more exclusive content for like Apple subscriptions or something like that. These are some ideas.
- [85:37]
B
A lot of people have been asking us to do something for Apple.
- [85:39]
A
Yeah. So the stuff that we've been talking about and then I. But again, like, I'd like to do a case like we did Delphi. You know, I feel like we could have done that with the Idaho murders case, but. But of course it didn't go to trial. And even if it had at that time, we would have been, you know, too chaotic to do anything about it.
- [85:57]
B
That's book promotion time.
- [85:58]
A
But I'd like to do one with a case where we can actually contribute by adding some rationality, you know, maybe do some investigative journalism on it. I know some people have proposed a couple and so definitely open to hearing about those. But I'd want to do one where we could really serve the public.
- [86:16]
B
Yeah. We've also gotten comments from people talking about cases like Luigi or the murder of Charles Kirk. And they say these are cases which a lot of the people who discuss them or a lot of discussion around these cases seems to be focused on some of the more political aspects of it. And they've asked us to look into those cases and cover them in a completely non partisan, just a, just the facts man manner. And that's something that might be interesting to do.
- [86:50]
A
I think that might be really interesting because I would not want to inject any of our own personal political viewpoints into those because I think like once you start doing that, then you lose credibility with like half of the people who disagree with you.
- [87:05]
B
Right.
- [87:06]
A
You know, or like half the people disagree with you and they're gonna immediately write you off. So why not just focus on the facts of the actual cases without any of the political ramifications. I think that could be. That could be interesting. That could be an opportunity for, for us to try to do some good on that.
- [87:20]
B
Right.
- [87:21]
A
I just realized we forgot one of the Delphi questions that I'm gonna throw in here at the end. This is the question from Facebook. Have there been any legitimate inquiries about the mental health of the Allen defense, specifically Andrew Baldwin? There are defense antics and there's whatever the hell this guy is doing. I mean, I, I wouldn't know. I would say I'm, I, I'm loath to attribute any sort of antics to mental health because I think. I think people just do stuff that's kind of wild without there being any sort of underpinnings around mental health. And I agree that the antics are out of control as far as Andrew Baldwin filing kind of a frivolous complaint against Nicholas McLelland. But I, I wouldn't know about how he's doing in his personal life. I think just from the outside, when you look at the complaint, it's clearly, it's clear that this man should move on. And I think that would be the healthy thing to do. That's. That's all I'll say on mental health, but thank you for the question. And I'm sorry, I almost forgot it.
- [88:19]
B
Last question. People want to know. Anya, in 2026, will you give birth to my baby?
- [88:26]
A
Why did you say it like that?
- [88:28]
B
That's the question. I didn't write the question.
- [88:30]
A
This is the tastefully worded question by our genteel listener. Will 2026 be the year of the previously stated desired Kane Greenlee collaboration in human form, AKA baby. Baby. She didn't say it as ridiculously as you did. I don't know. I guess we'll have to see. But I've definitely been going baby crazy this year. I don't know if anyone's noticed that these people brought their delightful baby to one of our book signings. And she was so cute and she was like. I was like putting my hands over my mouth and she was doing the same thing. She was like mirroring me and I'm like, I'm obsessed with this baby. We just met a little three year old boy who we went out to dinner with his parents and he came and he was so cute and I tried to give him stickers. And at first he was like, no, because he was too shy. But then later he took the stickers.
- [89:17]
B
Stickers, by the way, that say murder Sheet on the.
- [89:20]
A
I asked permission.
- [89:21]
B
Giving them to children.
- [89:23]
A
I asked permission, and they were like, go. Go for it. The funniest one, we went to a book signing, and this dad came up with his little girl. I was so proud of you in this moment, Kevin. And he was like, oh, hey, what's your book about?
- [89:35]
B
He had a child with him.
- [89:37]
A
And we're like, sir, sir, run. I was like. I was about to be like, oh, it's about a murder. I guess you said something really nice.
- [89:43]
B
I said something to the effect of, oh, it's a story about something bad happening and how when that happens, a lot of good people can come together and try to make it better as much as they can.
- [89:55]
A
That's a lawyer for you, ladies and gentlemen. That is talking around the. I love that. I was so proud of you. And. And, yeah, everyone's just been bringing their adorable children to me recently. And so that's made me very. You know, going. Going crazy for that. But I would. I would. That would. That would be a very, very fun and cool collaboration. What do you think, Kevin?
- [90:21]
B
We'll see.
- [90:22]
A
Can you imagine, like, what if we had a baby and it was like, a jock? That would be the twist.
- [90:28]
B
You have a sister who's like, a professional athlete.
- [90:31]
A
Yeah, that's used to be.
- [90:32]
B
So you. There was some jock genes there.
- [90:34]
A
Yeah. That'd be wild. But I think I would be. Really? Yeah. I don't know. Babies are so cute. I know. They're really a lot of work, though. I know every. All the new parents we talk to are like, it's a nightmare. Get out. You know? But, like, at the same time, I also would like to do that. I don't know if 2026 is going to be our year, but I think whenever we do or whatever happens, we probably won't be. We'll probably be trying to keep the baby's privacy as far as, like, not posting pictures and stuff online. So it might be a bit little. Might be a little secretive, but I think that would be a very fun adventure to ask.
- [91:09]
B
We'll see how long that lasts, because you are going to be. If there's a baby, you're gonna be so proud of that child.
- [91:14]
A
There's safety reasons, though. There's safety reasons. And given our line of work, I think, you know, we're pretty aware of those. So I think there would be. There would be an inclination to at least blur out faces because you know that we live in a bad world. But even though we do, I still have hope, and I want to, you know, have kids.
- [91:34]
B
What a note to end on.
- [91:36]
A
We're getting all corny at the end here. Yeah, that would be crazy though. But one thing, it'll, it'll probably, would probably complicate recordings, right? Because there'd be a baby crying all the time. So I guess we'd have to see how Auphonic does with that.
- [91:52]
B
Well, let me also say this. If a baby is crying, you don't just continue with your recording. You go and you tend to the child.
- [91:57]
A
We would be like pausing a lot. But we'd also want to edit that stuff out. Out. If there was, you know, if babies call protective services.
- [92:04]
B
If during our shows you hear the wails of a hungry infant.
- [92:07]
A
No. Oh, man. I just, I love the idea. I, I, it would be, it would be great. But we'll, but we'll see. I don't know about a timeline, but we'll, we're kind of, we're figuring some stuff out.
- [92:19]
B
We also talked about getting one of those talking dog.
- [92:21]
A
Oh God.
- [92:22]
B
And that would, that would probably also have to be edited out of the pod.
- [92:24]
A
Disaster. Disaster. This man wants a husky, or as he calls it, one of them talking dogs. And I don't think we are high energy enough people for that. I don't think we are. I think we're pretty sedentary and I think a dog like that would need people who are exercising it a lot.
- [92:44]
B
And would inspire us.
- [92:45]
A
Yeah, I don't think that's a good way to get a dog. I think it's a disaster. And if it's talking throughout us trying to record, that's gonna be a nightmare. And I think, you know, but I, I, I support your enthusiasm. I just don't know if that's gon a good fit.
- [93:00]
B
A talking dog that could be like the co host of the podcast.
- [93:05]
A
So you're gonna replace me with a dog? Is that what you're saying?
- [93:08]
B
Well, you can replace me.
- [93:09]
A
I can replace you. Okay.
- [93:10]
B
See, we could take weeks off individually. No one would ever know. No one would know because we'd be replaced by a dog. The talks. So maybe I want to take a week off bringing the dog. Maybe the next week you want to take a week off.
- [93:23]
A
So you're forcing a dog to do your work for you.
- [93:25]
B
You. Yeah, one of those talking dogs. Knowing us, they're supposed to be smart.
- [93:29]
A
Knowing us, the audience would be like, oh, that was so much better. We just replace both of ourselves with huskies. I love you. Replace both of ourselves with huskies. Be like, the show really went up in quality. That might.
- [93:48]
B
That might help us if we do video stuff. We have more dogs on more dogs.
- [93:51]
A
Oh, my God, what a disaster. Well, guys, we appreciate all of your questions, and we just appreciate all your support. It's been, as I mentioned at the top of the first episode, it's been a challenging 20, 25 in some respects, but it's also been a really fulfilling one. One of the best parts of this was getting to hear from so many of you. The support you gave us during the trial, the support that the Line sas, or the Lifesavers, as we call them, gave us, the support that so many people just reached out to us to say that the book meant something to them and that the story of Abby and Libby meant something to them and that. That it touched their hearts. And the amount of support we've gotten from other authors, from other podcasters. I just want to thank all of you. It's really been. It's really just. It's been really nice, and I really.
- [94:34]
B
Appreciate how you've all been open to engage with things like the Temujin Kanzu case and some of the other cases we've covered as well.
- [94:40]
A
You guys are all a delight, and we feel very fortunate that you are willing to spend so much time with us, and we want to honor that and, you know, not waste your time and, you know, give you stuff that's entertaining but also factual and interesting. And we just. We just.
- [94:55]
B
Because we. Because we don't want to waste your time, we say this right after we recorded three hours of questions.
- [95:01]
A
While we're answering their questions.
- [95:02]
B
Okay.
- [95:02]
A
We didn't just pose them ourselves.
- [95:06]
B
They're not.
- [95:08]
A
You posed one. Yeah, and I'm not.
- [95:10]
B
I'm not sure. We'll see. You promised more berets in 26.
- [95:15]
A
Okay. That's one of my guarantees. But, yeah, we. Take care of yourselves, have a great start to your 2026, and just hope you and your families and your loved ones and, you know, everything is just going well for all of you.
- [95:27]
B
Yes. And we've gotten a beret guarantee.
- [95:30]
A
Oh, my God. All right.
- [95:31]
B
It almost rhymes. Is there a term for the Neo rhymes?
- [95:36]
A
What?
- [95:36]
B
Beret guarantee. Almost rhymes.
- [95:39]
A
That's not A, A and E. No, they don't almost rhyme.
- [95:43]
B
Bere guarantee or beret guarantee. See, it almost rhymes.
- [95:48]
A
Beret guarantee is better, but either way. What are you doing in the button?
- [95:53]
B
Thanks so much for listening to the Murder Sheet. If you have a tip concerning one of the cases we cover, please email us@murdersheetmail.com if you have actionable information about an unsolved crime, please report it to the appropriate authorities.
- [96:14]
A
If you're interested in joining our Patreon, that's available at www.patreon.com. if you want to tip us a bit of money for records requests, you can do so at www. Buymeacoffee.com murdersheet. We very much appreciate any support.
- [96:37]
B
Special thanks to Kevin Tyler Greenlee, who composed the music for the Murder Sheet and who you can find on the web@kevintg.com if you're looking to talk with.
- [96:49]
A
Other listeners about a case we've covered, you can join the Murder Sheet Discussion group on Facebook. We mostly focus our time on research and reporting, so we're not on social media much. We do try to check our email account, but we ask for patience as we often receive a lot of messages. Thanks again for listening.