Murder Conspiracies, Free Speech, and Reluctant Jurors: A Conversation with FDR Drive Author James Comey

Summary

Murder Conspiracies, Free Speech, and Reluctant Jurors: A Conversation with FDR Drive Author James Comey

Hosted by Áine Cain and Kevin Greenlee

Introduction

In this insightful episode of Murder Sheet, hosts Áine Cain and Kevin Greenlee engage in a compelling conversation with James Comey, the author of FDR Drive and former Director of the Federal Bureau of Investigation (FBI). The discussion delves deep into the intricacies of Comey's latest novel, exploring themes of conspiracy, free speech, the challenges of jury selection, and the nuanced relationship between the FBI and the U.S. Attorney's Office.

James Comey: From FBI Director to Novelist

James Comey brings a wealth of experience to his writing, drawing from his extensive background in law enforcement and government. He served as the United States Attorney for the Southern District of New York, the U.S. Deputy Attorney General, and had roles in major corporations like Lockheed Martin and Bridgewater Associates before transitioning into authorship.

“He was the United States Attorney for the Southern District of New York, the US Deputy Attorney General, the General Counsel for Lockheed Martin and Bridgewater Associates, and briefly, he was a defense attorney.” [04:06]

Comey's novels, particularly the Nora Carlton series, are lauded for their authenticity and depth, offering readers a realistic portrayal of the criminal justice system.

Inspiration Behind FDR Drive

FDR Drive, the third installment in the Nora Carlton series, draws inspiration from Comey's observations of radicalization efforts both online and offline. Reflecting on his tenure as FBI Director during the rise of Islamic State propaganda and the growing threat of white identity extremism, Comey sought to craft a narrative that is both gripping and relevant.

“I thought, wow, it would be maybe a depressing storyline, but maybe one that would be important to my readers... where that technology, that podcast, that social media is used to radicalize people whose view of their own racial identity motivates them to violence.” [06:25]

Evolving Storytelling in the Nora Carlton Series

Comey emphasizes the intentional diversity in his storytelling approach. Unlike many series that revisit similar plots, his books explore varied cases ranging from financial crimes to espionage, mirroring the multifaceted nature of real-life prosecutions.

“It's intentional, and it's mostly driven by my idea person, partner, my wife... I've tried to see all these different angles on the criminal justice system and the national security world, and so I've tried to do them all differently.” [08:45]

This approach not only keeps the narrative fresh but also allows readers to experience the breadth of challenges faced by prosecutors.

The Significance of FDR Drive

Choosing FDR Drive as the title was a deliberate decision to anchor the story in a specific, real-world location that holds personal significance for Comey. The drive itself, a major thoroughfare along Manhattan’s East Side, serves as a backdrop for key events in the novel.

“The FDR Drive is the major... It's the aspirational highway that runs along the east side of the island of Manhattan... I put up key parts of the story right there near the drive.” [12:00]

Navigating Political Polarization and Free Speech

One of the central themes in FDR Drive is the delicate balance between free speech and incitement of violence. Given the current polarized political climate, Comey addresses the complexities prosecutors face in identifying and acting upon threats that border on criminal incitement without infringing upon First Amendment rights.

“When is incitement a crime? I urge you to stand up for your beliefs... at some point, we'd all agree that when I tell you I want you to go kill Mary Smith... I have joined into a conspiracy with you.” [22:30]

Comey underscores the gray areas that make defining and prosecuting such cases challenging, emphasizing the importance of judicial discretion and the evolving nature of common law.

Challenges in Jury Selection

Jury selection emerges as a critical aspect of prosecutions, especially in high-profile cases. Comey shares his experiences and strategies in selecting jurors who can remain impartial despite extensive public scrutiny.

“Especially a trial involving a controversial topic, most people try and find a way to get off... You try as the prosecutor, you're kind of the sponsor of the case.” [42:25]

He highlights the difficulty in reading juror behavior and the unpredictability involved, recounting unique instances that underscore the human element in courtroom proceedings.

Interagency Dynamics: FBI and U.S. Attorney's Office

The relationship between the FBI and the U.S. Attorney's Office is portrayed as both collaborative and competitive. Comey discusses the inherent tensions that arise from overlapping jurisdictions and the drive to outperform counterpart agencies.

“They allow investigative agencies to play the two prosecutor's offices against each other... It allows for energy and creativity.” [33:53]

This dynamic fosters a work environment where bureaucracy meets ingenuity, often leading to innovative strategies in combating crime.

Ethical Dilemmas in Prosecution

Comey delves into the moral complexities prosecutors face, particularly when relying on jailhouse informants. Balancing the need for reliable information against the ethical implications of cooperating with criminals is a recurring challenge illustrated in FDR Drive.

“Criminals are like a loaded gun pointed at your career... always take a step back and ask yourself, is this person giving me what I want?” [38:35]

This internal conflict adds depth to his characters, showcasing the real-life dilemmas that shape prosecutorial decisions.

Undercover Operations and Operational Technology

Reflecting his deep understanding of FBI operations, Comey touches upon the advanced techniques employed in undercover work and the crucial role of the FBI's Operational Technology Division. These elements contribute to the suspense and realism of his narratives.

“Operational Technology Division... using technology to help the FBI in its counterterrorism, its counterintelligence and its criminal operations.” [56:16]

Reception and Future Endeavors

James Comey's novels have been well-received by both readers and former colleagues from the FBI and U.S. Attorney's Offices. He expresses excitement for future projects, including an upcoming espionage thriller set in Washington D.C. and plans for a new series based in Richmond, Virginia.

“We've been pleased by the results there. In general, the folks who have read my book so far think I get it right.” [58:32]

Conclusion

This episode offers a comprehensive look into James Comey's transition from FBI Director to acclaimed novelist. Through FDR Drive, Comey not only entertains but also educates readers on the nuanced challenges within the criminal justice system. His expertise and candid discussions provide invaluable insights into the interplay between law enforcement, legal proceedings, and the broader societal issues of free speech and radicalization.

Notable Quotes:

• “I tried to write a cool story that would be relevant. I wish it weren't as relevant as it is this spring.” — James Comey [06:25]

• “When is incitement a crime?... I've tried to show that the grayness around that line.” — James Comey [22:30]

• “Criminals are like a loaded gun pointed at your career.” — James Comey [38:35]

• “Operational Technology Division... using technology to help the FBI in its counterterrorism, its counterintelligence and its criminal operations.” — James Comey [56:16]

This structured and detailed summary captures the essence of the conversation, ensuring that listeners unfamiliar with the episode can grasp the key discussions and takeaways.

Transcript

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[Kevin Greenlee]

This episode contains discussion of murder and violence, along with some profanity.

[Anya Cain]

We always appreciate those works of fiction that can really draw you into the lives and careers of those who work in our criminal justice system defense attorneys, law enforcement and prosecutors alike.

[Kevin Greenlee]

James Comey has done just that with his latest novel, FDR Drive. He's of course, the former director of the Federal Bureau of Investigation, but he's also been able to draw on his other career experiences for his fiction.

[Anya Cain]

He was the United States Attorney for the Southern District of New York, the US Deputy Attorney General, the General Counsel for Lockheed Martin and Bridgewater Associates, and briefly, he was a defense attorney. Now he writes mysteries and legal thrillers. His current series focuses on federal prosecutor Nora Carlton and her team.

[Kevin Greenlee]

His two previous books in this series were Central park west and Westport. We had him on the show twice before to talk about each of those.

[Anya Cain]

Now he's going to speak to us about FDR Drive. This time around, Nora and her colleagues are going to face off against a villainous podcaster. Imagine that. A reign of terror and questions over where free speech ends and where conspiracy begins. My name is Anya Cain. I'm a journalist.

[Kevin Greenlee]

And I'm Kevin Greenlee.

[Anya Cain]

I'm an attorney and this is the Murder Sheet.

[Kevin Greenlee]

We're a true crime podcast focused on original reporting, interviews, and deep dives into murder cases. We're the Murder Sheet and this is.

[Anya Cain]

Murder Conspiracies, Free Speech, and Reluctant Jurors. A Conversation with FDR Drive Author James Comey.

[James Comey]

Sam well, first of all, thank you so much for joining us today, Jim. We really appreciate you coming back on the show.

Oh, it's wonderful to be with you. A highlight of the publishing year.

Yes, that's high praise. Thank you so much. And I guess I mean to start off. So FDR Drive is the book we're talking about today. Can you just tell us a little bit about what inspired this third novel in the Nora Carlton series that you're writing?

Well, I was thinking about the work I did as FBI director in 2014 and 15 when we were experiencing a really a tidal wave of efforts by the so called Islamic State to radicalize through, mostly through Twitter, but also through podcasts and other communications that would go out and find the way to trouble people looking for meaning. And, and they would encourage people to find meaning by either traveling to Syria to join their caliphate or to kill where you are if you can't travel. And we found that to be sort of obviously low in sophistication, but high in yield. And we dealt with dozens and dozens of cases. And so then, as I saw just before I got fired, the real growth in what we called sort of white identity extremism, people who were troubled in seeking meaning because of some distorted view of their own racial identity and the way they thought it was threatened. And then as I watched that threat grow and grow over the last eight to 10 years, I thought, wow, it would be maybe a depressing storyline, but maybe one that would be important to my readers, and you could tell a cool, gripping story off of it, where that technology, that podcast, that social media is used to radicalize people whose view of their own racial identity motivates them to violence. And so that's a long way of saying, I tried to write a cool story that would be relevant. I wish it weren't as relevant as it is this spring. But it's the story that I've written, and it raises really interesting and challenging legal issues and investigative issues that I hope readers will get into.

Absolutely. And we're going to get into some of those in this conversation. But I wanted to zoom back a little bit to start out with. And we were talking about this the other night, and we were talking about how oftentimes in series, especially something like legal thrillers or mysteries, you have authors sort of telling the same story again and again in different ways. And you can certainly do that very well. But it feels like with your Nora Carlton books, you really kind of told three very markedly different stories, different kinds of cases, and I guess I'm just curious, like, was there an intentionality about that? Do you always kind of want to mix it up, or did you kind of just follow your interest and happen to do that?

It's intentional, and it's mostly driven by my idea person, partner, my wife, saying, look, nobody wants to read the same book over and over again, and you don't want to write the same book over and over again. And I've been able to see all these different angles on the criminal justice system and the national security world, and so I've tried to do them all differently. And the next one is going to be an espionage thriller, which will feel very different. Same characters, familiar characters, I hope will give a sense of comfort to people. But I find it fun to write a different kind of story each time.

And it kind of feels like it's accurate to the job of someone in the U.S. attorney's office that you get to work on all kinds of different, weird stuff over the course of a career.

Yeah, and that's what made it so fun. I used to tell people that when I was a federal prosecutor in New York. What made it so great is that we had all kinds of crime. And I would do that mostly to make them laugh and maybe grimace a little, but that was the truth. I got to work financial crimes, I got to work mob cases, I got to work espionage. I got to work terrorism. And it's one of the things that made it so hard for me to read or watch anything on those topics during my government career. But it gives me the opportunity to tell stories through all of those different angles.

[Unknown]

You mentioned your partner and your ideal person, your wife. Can you tell us a little bit about her role in your writing process?

[James Comey]

Yes. She's essential in all kinds of ways to my life. And Patrisse has read a tremendous amount of fiction, and I especially in this genre. And so she has thought a lot about stories. And so she's where I look for ideas about cool stories to tell, and then we'll discuss it over coffee, and then I will go and write it out as sort of a summary of the plot, which she calls the behind the curtain look. And then once we get in sync on that story, I then go off and write it. And she reads on a Google Doc and gives me loving but brutal feedback, and so that I keep the story on track. My characters don't drift, and it stays interesting. And she calls herself every reader because she's read so much, and she'll say, nah, readers aren't gonna like that, and I'll go back and give it another shot. So she is critical to the idea process. She's critical to the editing and writing process. And then all the other ways that she carries me, I won't go into.

[Unknown]

You mentioned you've just finished your fourth one. Is this. Is it getting easier, or is it still as challenging as it was when you first started writing Central Park West?

[James Comey]

It's getting easier in that I know maybe two different things. I know the craft better. I know how a story should unfold and how I might organize my chapters. And I also know my characters better. And so I feel like I can hear them talking. And so when I write them, I can tell when something is drift. The challenge I had in my first book was that, as I said earlier, Patrice would help me keep them from drifting, but my characters would tend to sound like them each other at times. But now I've got the voices of my characters in the. In my head, and it makes it easier to write.

One thing I was surprised by is this book breaks the west in the title tradition. And it's called, of course, FDR Drive for people who are not from New York and are not super familiar. Can you talk a bit about FDR Drive and sort of why you went in a different direction with this title?

Now try to pick titles that are based on places that feature in the story that folks are going to read. The FDR Drive is the major to call it a highway. It may give the misleading impression that you can drive at higher speeds on it. It's always bogged down with traffic. But it is the aspirational highway that runs along the east side of the island of Manhattan from all the way up top. It begins up in northern part of Harlem and then comes all the way down to the tip of Manhattan. And I've spent a ton of time on that highway in traffic and watching the east river reverse directions with the tide and all kinds of things like that. And so I. Because I've spent so much time there and can picture it, I put up key parts of the story right there near the drive. And so it was natural to name it that. It's funny because I'm trying to figure out what the title of the next book will be because it begins at a different part of Manhattan. My kids have told me that each title shouldn't have west in it. Dad. Or once you've written four or five, it'll become confusing to your readers.

That would be a lot of West. Thus, that makes sense. One thing we noticed about this book is it really does delve into some of the political issues of the time. And we've talked a little bit about online radicalization. We'll talk more about that. But I'm curious, you know, when you're writing something like this, when it has these political themes, how do you approach that, given how polarized we are as a nation right now?

Yeah, that's tricky, because I'm trying to write about a phenomenon that really does. It surfaces in our partisan politics. But what I'm trying to do is, because I want people from all across the political spectrum to read it, is I'm not gonna take the story into the express political world. I don't want to talk about Republicans and Democrats. I don't want to talk about who the president is and that sort of thing. But I want to talk about a real phenomenon that the FBI and federal prosecutors are wrestling with now and that I wrestled with when I was in government. And I don't know whether people have to tell me once they read it, whether I've done that. I had one of my readers who owns an independent bookstore say she loved it, stopped halfway because she needed to take a break because it was drawing her mentally too much into the headlines, even though I don't talk about headlines. And then she resumed and loved it all the way through. And so I'm trying to walk a line there because I don't want these to be political books, but I want them to be real. And violence inspired by demagoguery, that is touching. Misdirected, troubled white people who believe that the country's out to get them in some way. That's a real thing. And people really do commit crimes based on that motivation. And it's an increasingly difficult thing for the FBI to deal with because it's not career enhancing in the FBI today to work domestic terrorism, again, because of the orientation of one of our major political parties. So we'll see, we'll hear from readers whether I've kept it sufficiently non political while also being current and relevant.

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[James Comey]

One other controversial aspect of it. I don't think this is a spoiler, but one of the central antagonists is a podcaster. And we all know podcasters are just, you know, mostly terrific people who are just doing their best. But no, in all seriousness, I'm curious, you know, were you in, as part of your research, were you sort of delving into some of the podcasting creator sort of sphere when it comes to some of this demagoguery as we were talking about?

Yes, and also trying not to have the character be any particular podcaster. What I tried to do is understand. No, certainly not. I mean, you are the good people in any story where you might appear. And so. But look, you both know you are part of something that is really important and influential in America and cool that podcasts are having their time. And I suspect it's a time that's going to last. And it can have a time in a really cool way telling true crime stories, telling stories about cool books like mine, or, or it can be a vehicle to reach and to shape and to motivate people in ways that are not good for all of us. And so it's a way that when I was first in the FBI in 2013, Twitter was the way in which people reached others powerfully with their messages. And I think that's been supplanted by the phenomenon you're an important part of. Podcasts are a huge part of the way in which our culture is shaped, is communicated and changes.

Absolutely. No. And that's, and that's so true. And we've, we've even seen that in True Crime, where the, the influence of a podcaster who's like a friend in your ear speaking to you. There's an intimacy there that other media doesn't necessarily capture. And it's really behooves people to responsibly use their platform in ways that are not going to harm people or, you know, make them, making them do crimes. You know, one thing that we, we noticed in your book really does delve into, as we mentioned earlier, the, the aspect of online radicalization, that phenomenon, which is, you know, sort of can, can happen in any movement. And you mentioned radical Islamism and, you know, white supremacy. Really, it's, it's not something that's. To a particular ideology. It's more of a general phenomenon than that. But, you know, what did you learn about that phenomenon in your research that went into this book?

That there is power in the voice. You just talked about that, that friend in your ear. More power than a tweet from back in the day that would reach a lonely person seeking meaning in their lives. Right? All of us as humans crave meaning and purpose and center in our lives. And there is an incredibly. Well, it's both intimidating and inspiring that the ability of a podcaster to speak to that person through their. Their headphones who is alone, has. Doesn't have much of a social circle and whisper to them about ways in which they might find meaning in their life. Now that could be wonderful and uplifting and good for society, right? You can find it through service, you can find it through faith, you can find it. But there's also lots of darker ways that people can find meaning. And what I've come to believe is that the the podcast has a unique ability to speak as a friend to someone saying, this is where you will this is the way to meaning and purpose in your life. Because of the way humans consume information is more powerful than them reading those words in a post on social media.

[Unknown]

This book really is a fast moving thriller, but it does make you think about some interesting questions. And one question I thought was at the heart of it is we can all agree there's some demagogues out there who say some things that can incite violence, but we also do have a First Amendment. When in your mind, does free speech become a crime?

[James Comey]

Yeah, that's a really hard question. And it isn't. Throughout my career I've struggled with that because it isn't susceptible to a clean answer. Right? We can all say it's wrong to shout fire in a crowded theater, but take that metaphor and take it out into the real world. When is incitement? When is incitement a crime? I urge you to stand up for your beliefs. I urge you to get out there and march. I urge you not to take this lying down. At some point, we'd all agree that when I tell you I want you to go kill Mary Smith and I want you to do it next Wednesday, and I want you to do it with a gun, I have joined into a conspiracy with you. I have an incitement relationship, but there's a whole lot of gray before you get to that place. One of the things I wanted to explore in this book is how does an investigator and prosecutor figure out whether something has come across that line? It was one of the major impediments. In a good way, impediment's the wrong word. It was one of the major legal challenges to the FBI's work in domestic terrorism. Because we want to be in a country where people can express all kinds of anger about all kinds of things, and we don't want to investigate in a way that chills that. But at the same time, we can't live in a country where people can direct other people to commit crimes of violence without holding both the offender, the person with the weapon, and the person who incited them accountable. And so I've tried to show that the grayness around that line and show my protagonist struggling with so what's enough? And how do you make that case in a way that is respectful of the First Amendment but also protective of public order?

[Unknown]

You're a public figure. I have to ask, have there been times when you've been the target of potential threats from people in the social media or podcasting or what have you?

[James Comey]

Yes, many. I'm sure it still goes on, although I don't. I try not to pay attention to it. Yes is the answer. And. And the advice I've learned to give myself is I also give to a lot of other people these days is it's really important to do two things that seem contradictory when you're threatened. First, take prudent steps to protect yourself and those close to you who might be harmed if someone acted on a threat. But second, don't exaggerate it that it becomes. It occupies space in your brain that it's not entitled to. The challenge of being threatened is the threatener becomes a boogeyman of unique purpose and focus and ability, and it can come to dominate you. So what I've tried to do in my career when I've been threatened, including recently, is try to do those contradictory things. Acknowledge that there's danger out there, but do not exaggerate and allow it to come to dominate your life. And as you can tell, it's a tension that's not cleanly resolved. But. But that's how I think about it. Do your absolute best to live patternless lives. If someone wants to hurt you, whether they want to rob you or whether there's someone who's threatening you because they see you as a public figure, they will almost always watch first to see if they can see a pattern. So my advice to my family, as always, and my friends, is do not ever jog the same way every day, walk the same way every day, drive to the store the same time. Try not to live a life of pattern. And I know I sound like a crazy person that. Because if you're trying to live a patternless life, you'll be paranoid. No, it's. You can get to a Place where it becomes part of who you are. You just recognize I go a different way, different time for my walk. All of those things will are prudent things to do, even if you're not someone who's received a lot of threats.

Yeah, anyone could be susceptible to having a stalker or having something negative in their own lives. So you don't have to be a public figure to try to take steps to stay safe.

That's right. And just. It's just part of being prudent. And I've. Some of my neighbors obviously think I'm a nut. I've seen them and said, why? Why do you walk the same way every day at the same time? First of all, someone who wants to rob your house is going to know when you're out. They can do that reliably. And so they all just walk on more quickly to get away from me.

I think they probably think you're trying to rob their house.

There's that creepy tall guy again. God, won't he leave us alone?

[Unknown]

I have to tell you, I often give people your advice about living in the yellow, which is kind of similar to that. I talk to people a lot, giving you credit. And the other thing I think we give you credit for a lot is you rule about bagels.

[James Comey]

Oh, yeah, the comey. We actually refer to it as the Comey rule because we live in Indiana, which is mostly a hellscape in terms of good bagels. There's one pretty awesome place in Indianapolis, I will say, that has good bagels. But your rule for determining what's going to be a good bagel before you have to endure it is. Has been helpful to us in our lives and the safety stuff. But so here's. Here's one question, though, in terms of. We talked a lot about this, the First Amendment and, you know, versus the tension with, you know, the fact that people are inciting violence at times, or at least really walking very closely to that line. And, you know, as the Internet and social media have become so much more integral in all of our lives, frankly, do we as a nation, does our government need to have conversations about how our ideas around free speech and the First Amendment need to adapt in a world where we increasingly realize the influence that social media has on everybody?

I think we do. And I think the place for those conversations to go on is where they're going on, and that is in courtrooms all over the country as judges try to figure out, so where is that line in any particular case? And it's that body of sort of common law that helps shape how we as a country approach this. And the reason I say it that way is it's really not susceptible to national legislation. I shudder to think about our. Because our Congress struggles to do anything but of Congress trying to pass some sort of definitional framework around the First Amendment. Our founders gave us the First Amendment. We have 200 years, almost 250 years now, of courts trying to understand it, adapt it to our current circumstances. That's the healthiest way in which to evolve our understanding of what's okay. And so it's happening all the time in cases where people, you know, one of my kids works in domestic violence defending, representing victims of domestic violence. What is an actionable threat is being sorted out by judges in courtrooms like the ones in which she works every day. And that's the right place to have those conversations. Yeah.

[Unknown]

And one thing I'm struck by is that online threats aren't always taken as seriously as I believe they should be by law enforcement. We've done a lot of work on the Delphi case. We even have a book on it coming out. And there's lots of people in that space who have been threatened or harassed online. And we tell them to go to police or go to law enforcement. And people in law enforcement just say, oh, it's digital. It's not in the real world. Don't worry about it. How can we make people realize that what happens in the digital space has the potential to spill over and become real?

[James Comey]

Well, I would hope that law enforcement officers would recognize that it happens all the time, that a situation that blossoms into violence begins with someone emailing or texting or posting hostile threats online. Most of them don't, but some of them do. And every cop ought to know a story of one that has blossomed. And so it's. Again, it's. To my mind, it's about recognizing the inherent contradiction, the way you have to react to these things. You don't want to overreact and let it dominate your life, but you must recognize that the threat is real, and you have to take prudent steps to mitigate harm. And so it's. It's a. Most of it is just people who are keyboard cowboys who are looking to dominate your life. And so that implicates that second piece. Do not let them rent space in the attic of your brain. But also, don't just blow it off and think, well, because it's coming to me digitally, that person will never hurt you. There are a lot of troubled people out there. Seeking meaning and purpose through actually moving from threatening people online to harming them physically. And so you must do both at the same time.

Changing gears a bit. One thing I really love about your novels is that they feel very lived in. Someone who's actually had the kind of work experience and life experience that we're seeing kind of Nora go through. And one thing I had to ask about was I was really struck by when it comes to the Southern District of New York and the Eastern District of New York and there being this kind of rivalry between the two. And I was just curious, is that something that you have experienced in real life?

Oh, yes. Many times we are colleagues and respect each other and try to kill each other at all times. And the geography of the city of New York being split into two districts. I used to think that if I were the ruler of the Justice Department, I would urge that they be combined. Actually, once I became close to that ruler role, I took a different view of it. It allows investigative agencies to play the two prosecutor's offices against each other. Right? They're separated only by the Brooklyn Bridge. And so the DEA could arrange to have the final delivery of a, you know, 30 kilo heroin deal that could have the delivery at one end of the Brooklyn Bridge or the other. And then there is this fascinating concept of contiguous waters venue that allows each district to reach any conduct that is in or over the waters that surround that district. And so the waters of the Southern district of New York, the Hudson river, the east river, flow out under the Verrazano Narrows Bridge and out into the Atlantic Ocean. That allows. I remember working a case once where people brought a little of guns from Virginia to a gang in Brooklyn and they crossed the Verrazano Narrows Bridge. They were never in the physical territory of the Southern District of New York, but we prosecuted it because they were over our contiguous waters. Those are our waters right there. Well, you can see that's a recipe for creativity and tension as you steal cases from each other. But here's why I took a different view of it. When I was the Deputy Attorney General and the Supervisor of all 94 U.S. attorney's offices, I actually came to appreciate that that was an ingredient for energy and creativity. Right? You're in the Eastern District of New York. You don't want those pompous bastards in the Southern District of New York to steal your cases. So you work extra hard, you work extra fast, and across the contiguous waters, they're doing the same thing to try and take your cases. It's actually good. I Think overall, for the taxpayers to have that kind of energy because there are too many U.S. attorney's offices that don't feel that sense of energy because they got the whole state and there's no contiguous water. No one's going to take our work. So what's the hurry? It's a recipe for some good work in the divided city of New York.

In your experience, did the different offices have different cultures to them or were they pretty similar and just in opposition to one another?

They were similar. And part of the tension was the hiring process. The Southern District of New York tended to hire people with more elite academic credentials. And so almost everybody working in the Eastern District of New York had been blown off by the Southern District of New York. And so you can imagine what that does. But when I became U.S. attorney, I thought, I need to hire more people like they have in Brooklyn, because they tended to hire more people who had been prosecutors in the state system. And so they were great with juries and cops. And I had people who were brilliant. They'd been Supreme Court clerks, but they wouldn't look you in the eye and they didn't want to leave their office. And so you needed a. I needed a better blend. And so I looked to hire more people who would otherwise go to work in Brooklyn and kill it in front of juries.

That makes sense. And the other kind of source of tension in this book, where you have everyone working for the same goal, but maybe there's some disagreements on how to do that. And what needs to happen is the. Between the FBI actually and the U.S. attorney's office. Can you speak more about that? How that can kind of manifest itself.

The FBI and is enormous in New York. I mean, it's not as big as the New York City Police Department, but it's its largest office, the FBI's. And it's led not by a special agent in charge, as most sac, as most FBI offices are. It's led by an assistant director in charge of pronounced a dick. I know, despite. Despite the unfortunate sound of that. But the, the. A dick could sometimes be a dick because he was or she was the leader of an enormous office that could bring its work to other places, including to Brooklyn, and had a proud tradition that was separate from the U.S. attorney's office. The U.S. attorney's office just across the street. And now, now they're as. As I depict in the building. I mean, now, as I depict in the book, they're in the same building now has its own tradition that is older than the FBI's right. It's been around since the founding of the country. Our alums have become judges and prominent people. And so we'll do it the way we want to do it. While the Bureau's saying to itself and often directly to the U.S. attorney's office, no, no, we'll do it the way we want to do it. And so they are best friends and at times blood sworn enemies. And they fight over and I've been on both sides of these fights. They fight over publicity connected to takedown. The Bureau tends to be a little more aggressive about publicity. They fight over relationships with other agencies. Sometimes it's healthy and sometimes it leads to a lot of waste of time. But it's absolutely true that in the way I depicted in the building, they're now both in 26 Federal Plaza, gigantic tall building. And the FBI has its own elevator bank. And it does not allow the U.S. attorney's office to come directly to their offices. Even though they could walk one flight of stairs. The people from the U.S. attorney's office really do have to get in the elevator, go down to the lobby, walk over to the FBI's elevator bank, be shown in, badged in, and then go up to see the FBI. And so it's a source of continuing tension and it's a geography that reflects also a reality.

Why is that with the elevators? That was my immediate follow up question. Why do they do that? Is that just like a security thing or like what is that?

It wasn't going on when I was director, so all I can do is speculate because the office was at its traditional home, which is now being totally rehabbed. So I'm writing the books to be current. So the U.S. attorney's office is there. I think it's a security thing that the Bureau's view is we are. Much of our space is sensitive Compartment and information Facility, a SCIF where we discuss classified matters. And so we. We can't have the U.S. attorney's office people willy nilly coming down the staircase to visit us. There's all kinds of holes in that, but I suspect that's what it is.

Wild one plot point in this book that we won't get into too much detail because I don't want any spoilers, but it just kind of deals with information from jailhouse informants and, you know, prison house informants. And can you talk about sometimes the compromises or sort of moral quandaries that prosecutors grapple with when it comes to we're trying to prosecute someone who we say did a bad thing, but we may need help from someone who did a bad thing in order to do so.

Yeah. And I've tried to show readers in FDR Drive what it's really like as a prosecutor to work with a criminal who's cooperating to try and help the government make its case. And I actually based one of the key characters in the book, a bad guy, on someone I spent a lot of time with, very close to real life, that you need criminals to catch criminals, especially when you're talking about organized criminal activity. And we were forever saying to juries, look, it'd be great if we could. And you try to pick the name of someone that it's harder and harder in America today, but that on a bipartisan basis, people could agree is a good person. And so you'd say, look, we can't ask Mother Teresa to tell us about the criminal conduct of the people who are sitting at the defense table because she doesn't know them. And they don't hang out with people like Mother Teresa. They hang out with people like them. So if we're going to see what's going on inside their organization, we're going to have to ask criminals to tell us about it. And so it's necessary. But I used to describe to people I trained that cooperating defendants, people with criminal exposure, are like a loaded gun pointed at your career. There is so much danger in being taken in by a cooperating defendant, because if they're successful and they've made their way inside significant criminal activity, it's in part because they're intelligent and persuasive. And so they're going to use that power on you to try and get a benefit from assisting you with your case. And there's also a danger that you will fall in love with information that helps you win that case and. And not look as closely as you should as to whether that's reliable information. And so I would often tell people, always take a step back and ask yourself, is this person giving me what I want? Is this person giving me information that's too good to be true? What could be said by someone other than myself about what's wrong with this information? And it is. And I try in the book to show a little bit about the particular dangers associated with jailhouse informants. I'm not going to go into too much detail there, but that's a slice of the cooperating witness problem that you deal with as a prosecutor, and I want to show what that's really like. And to show Nora, in particular, grappling with that the challenges and the opportunities of using a criminal to get other criminals.

Yeah, Nora's dilemma there really felt very real. And what was that phrase that we always hear about this sort of.

[Unknown]

We often hear there's no swans in sewers, which is just a quick and easy way of saying what you just said.

[James Comey]

You'd probably get yelled at if you said that in a courtroom in front of a jury. You've calling the defendants sewer dwellers. But that's a good one.

You hear it a lot in Indiana. So maybe the juries here are just more like, yeah.

[Kevin Greenlee]

And I liked it because at one.

[Unknown]

Point in the book, a character gives obviously an opening statement in court, and she says, oh, I got a lot of this from this other attorney. And that other attorney says, well, I got it from somebody else. We just always use the same phrases over and over again. You find something that works and stick with it.

[James Comey]

Yep, it's all theft all the way down.

One thing I wanted to ask you about was, you know, there's a scene where, you know, there's this jury selection, right? And you have people coming from all around New York streaming into the courtroom to be possibly considered to be selected on a jury, including people from my home county, Westchester. So that was fun. In your experience, was there typically a lot of reluctance from these prospective jurors to be on a jury, or did it really depend on the group and the case?

I suppose it depended on the case, but in the main, anyone who wasn't trying to get off the jury should make you nervous, as someone, as a prosecutor especially. But I can remember selecting a jury for a mob case, a big mob case against John Gambino and Joe Gambino, and listening to a courtroom packed with probably 150 potential jurors as the judge, as they always do, saying, let me tell you a little bit about the case you're here potentially to be told about. And the judge said something like, it's a case involving accusations of racketeering. And you heard this kind of hum in the courtroom. And he said, I should have said first that obviously the United States is on one side and on the other side. And then he lists the defendant's names and the courtroom goes. And immediately people are thinking, how do I get off of this case? And so a big part of. Especially a trial involving a controversial topic, especially a trial involving long time sitting as a juror, most people try and find a way to get off. And so you try as the prosecutor, you're kind of the sponsor of the case. And so you figure, rightly, that people who are held when they really want to get off to take care of a child or it's going to damage their job, are going to blame you, the government, if the judge keeps them on. And so you have a fine line to walk there because the judge will be angry if you start agreeing to let people off who shouldn't be. Again, this is before you get to the strikes that the parties can exercise, there's a conversation always with a judge about whether the government is this somebody that we ought to let go. And the judge will be angry with you if you agree. Yes. And so you're walking a tightrope between pissing off the jurors and pissing off the judge. But jury selection has always been one of my favorite parts because you get to see real people and hear about their lives and about what they're worried about. And you're trying to find people. I'm repeating myself. But you're trying to find people who really don't want to fully be there, but who are willing to do the right thing if the judge insists.

[Unknown]

Would you ever get a sixth sense about jurors, like, oh, this is a good, great juror for me. This is an awful juror for me.

[James Comey]

Yes. And there's a danger that you're overreading that based on how people look at you, their body language, you can over interpret that. I had a friend who was trying a case very recently in a state court in Texas. And one of the potential jurors, towards the end of jury selection, after the strikes have been exercised, said, your Honor, I feel like I should say something. And so the judge called on the juror and the juror. I'm not making this up. I've seen the transcript. The juror professed his love for the prosecutor. Say, I just need to let you know, you, Honor, I think I'm in love with Mr. Smith and I just can't take my eyes off of him. And here's what was amazing, is the prosecutor was like, okay, that guy's gotta go. But the defense said, no, no, we don't see any reason why he has to go. And so the guy stayed on the jury. I think what the defense was banking on is the guy's total wing nut. And so who knows what might happen with that? And introduces a wild card that we, as the defense, want. But I've. I've actually never seen that. And like I said, I read the transcript from this proceeding which happened about a month ago, that has never happened. To me. No one's ever professed their love to me in a courtroom. But, yeah, you would worry about people. How do they look? They turn away from me. They don't smile when I say hilariously funny things. But again, there's a danger there because I've never been able to get on a jury. I've tried a couple times, and I get struck. But if I run a jury, I would be keen not to show any particular affection or through body language or facial expression. And that might be read as, oh, that guy won't even look at us. That's bad.

Were your guesses about jurors like that based on body language? Based on, oh, they're not looking at us, or they're looking at the defendant or whatnot. Were you usually right or wrong, or was it kind of all over the place?

I've only had insight one time because after a conviction, we were very loath as prosecutors to speak to the jurors. But I had one racketeering case where one of the alternates was an attractive woman, and we knew that she was single and how old she was, the industry she worked in. And he was single and said after the jury retired to deliberate, she was excused. He asked whether he could interview her to find out, you know, more about. Oh, totally professional. Just to find out more about the case. And I looked at him and said, you're kidding me. But he managed. He met for coffee. They ended up getting married and living happily ever after. But she gave him insight into. After the case was over, into the way the jury reacted to various things. And some of that told me that my instincts were right about certain situations. In some circumstances, it told me that I was wrong. And so that's why I keep putting on these qualifiers, like, you have to be careful how much you interpret body language.

That's incredible.

[Unknown]

That's amazing.

[James Comey]

What a way to meet your spouse, right?

FBI agent meets alternate juror. And I used to call her alternate juror number two forever. Really?

I love that. Oh, you mentioned pissing off the judge. And that's one thing that Nora does risk in this, because, you know, as we talked about some of this stuff around First Amendment rights and what. What is inciting someone to. To harm someone else? It's kind of a. It's kind of a risky case in many respects. But there's one portion of this where it kind of gets into questioning a judge's decision on a specific matter. In your time as prosecutor, what's the fine line between doing that? Feeling like a judge is making a mistake and appealing it versus staying silent. How do you sort of weigh the risks and rewards of that?

Well, the first thing I do is think about it constantly in two different ways. What am I doing in this courtroom that might cause the judge to be angry at me and to make a decision that harms my case? Basically, that my conduct has caused the judge to harm the case in some way. But you have to be constantly worrying about the appeal as a prosecutor, because a court of appeals is going to review what goes on here, and it won't feel the same in the court of appeals. It'll be off a cold transcript. And what you can't do is allow a judge to rule in your favor in a way that you will then regret that will end up hurting you on appeal. And so sometimes a judge is trying to give you something and you have to say, well, actually, Judge, no, I don't. I think I agree with the defense here, which risks antagonizing the judge. And so it's one of the things that makes trial work so interesting is those two things are in constant tension.

So.

And moving at the speed of the game. It's not something you can take a weekend to think about. You have to decide in that moment, is the judge giving me too much here? Do I need to stop the judge and risk antagonizing him or her?

[Unknown]

Again, not to give too much away, the antagonist in this book is a public figure. You in your career sometimes have had to have cases involving high profile defendants. What sort of special considerations are involved when that occurs?

[James Comey]

Well, you have to think a lot about the issues around pretrial publicity. That is, are we conducting ourselves as the government in a way that might jeopardize the defendant's fair trial rights or affect the jury pool in some way that either hurts the case in the moment or leads to a court of appeals to say, actually there was a fatal defect in the way this was all handled. So you have to think a lot about how should I announce this? And so let's pick a less. It's probably very controversial, I suppose, with some people, but I prosecuted Martha Stewart. I indicted Martha Stewart, and who was guilty as the day is long, by the way. But how to handle the publicity in that case, to do a press conference that doesn't create a problem for the prosecutors in trying the case is something that has to be front of mind and then obviously the jury. You need to think about how is this public figure viewed by jurors and are there hidden opinions of jurors that you need to find a way to draw out, which is very tricky in a courtroom and to get the judge's help in trying to find out how do these people really feel about Martha Stewart or about an effort to prosecute Martha Stewart. And so it becomes a complication, set of complications that you really don't see in the ordinary case.

Yeah, you don't want some super fan to sneak onto the jury. Right.

Or a hater to sneak onto the jury. And so where you're dealing with a defendant where most people have an opinion, but also folks in a courtroom, for reasons I totally get, don't wanna, if they have an extreme opinion, either they're a hater or a lover, do not wanna offer that because it's embarrassing. And so finding ways to tease that out through the jury selection process is really important.

In high profile cases we cover, we sometimes hear people who are listeners kind of asking us how the heck are they gonna pick so high profile. There's been so much news coverage and I'm wondering if you've ever encountered what we've seen, which is like, you'd be surprised how, you know, sometimes people are just not in that particular bubble where they care about a specific case or a specific figure. And it's actually. Sometimes it's difficult, but it can be easier to pick a jury in that sense than many might think.

Yeah, that's right. That's my experience. That and it's a little bit depressing to discover how many people there are who really don't follow stuff that they ought to be following and don't know about things that you would assume they know or care about things that you would assume they should care about. And so even in a city that believes itself to be as sophisticated as New York, you can find people who have no idea what's going on in parts of the world that you care passionately about.

So we talked a lot about prosecution. I wanted to go to the defense side for a moment. Matthew Parker is the defense attorney in this novel. And without going into details, you know, he has to deal with a lot of stuff from his client. I mean, basically his client and co counsel not listening to him, issues around that and sort of the hijinks they get up to while he's trying to steer the ship and do his best for his client. And have you ever seen that play out in a courtroom or been close to a situation like that?

Yes, both during my brief and unhappy portion of my career as a defense lawyer where I did my absolute best for my Clients. But what made it so difficult is that a person's life is at stake, their liberty's at stake, and of course they care about it the way you would care about it if you were in their position, but you're sitting next to that person. I did a. I guess it was three weeks trial, federal money laundering trial in federal court in Virginia, in Richmond, where my client was a smart, motivated business person, and he had views on lots of things. And so managing that, where you're giving this person the best defense, but you're also not doing things that are unethical or that you really believe will hurt their cause, is what makes a defense being a defense. One of the things that makes being a defense lawyer so hard. As a prosecutor, you don't have a client, you have the FBI agent next to you who wants to date one of the alternate jurors. So you can manage that sort of thing. It isn't as hard as managing a living, breathing, caring human being sitting next to you. And so I've seen it as a defense lawyer, I've seen it as a prosecutor, where relationships break down, and you as a prosecutor, are trying not to have the case go to hell because of the relationship between the counsel and the defendant falling apart. I did a mob case once where I could see the friction between the defendant and his lawyer, and I could hear them basically agreeing not to speak to each other at the table behind. And I couldn't figure out what was wrong. And then the judge noticed something and asked to speak to the defense lawyer and the prosecutor, excuse me, and the client, and had us there and so asked, what is it? And I remember the defense lawyer saying, we lack a certain symbiosis, your honor. And I. He had a thick New York accent, and I didn't know what that meant. And he just kept saying it again and again. We just were looking to achieve a certain symbiosis. And it finally dawned on me that the client, who was a mobster, had stopped paying his lawyer. And so the lacking symbiosis was that the money had not been delivered. And so once that got fixed, once Mr. Green arrived, the symbiosis was achieved, and they started talking to each other again. But as a prosecutor, I'm worried about that. I'm interested in it because it's a hilarious human interest thing, but I'm worried it's going to tank the case because this defendant is entitled to constitutionally effective counsel. And if the guy's not talking to him because he's not getting paid, that's a real problem.

[Unknown]

In the novel. There's some undercover work, some effective, maybe some that's not so effective. Did you have experiences with undercover work in the course of your work?

[James Comey]

Yes, and I've tried to capture the reality of that in my writing. Very difficult part of investigations involving great risk, real challenges to the people who are participating. And, yeah, both physical danger and danger to a case is a critical part of all undercover investigative techniques.

One thing that fascinated me, and I'd never heard of before, to be honest, the Operational Technology Division of the FBI. Did you get to work with them in your capacity in the U.S. attorney's office or as director of the FBI? In any capacity?

I came to know OTD best when I was FBI director, and so obviously because everybody at the FBI worked for me. But I was fascinated by their work and used to go down to Quantico to visit their main office so they could show me their toys and their techniques. And I can remember one day I was in a big, kind of like a theater backstage while they demonstrated various things they can do, disguises and things like that. And I remember saying, okay, we can't ever let you people leave because if you ever broke bad on us, that would be awful. You're too good at what you do and at your ability to conceal things, ability to hide, ability to surveil. And I would say I was joking because they were allowed to leave. They could live with their families. But I was very impressed by the scientists and the technicians of the FBI's Operational Technology Division. And the name tells you what they do. They're responsible for using technology to help the FBI in its counterterrorism, its counterintelligence and its criminal operations.

Wild that they do disguises. That sounds like something out of an old movie I love.

Oh, it is. And I'm not going to talk too much about what they do, but it is. They are the people who can execute a court order in a national security case, for example, without letting the bad guys know that the door was opened or the envelope was opened and read before being sealed again. And so it's lots and lots of things like that that. That impressed me.

[Unknown]

Every novelist, of course, gets reviews. I've seen that Publishers Weekly gave FDR Drive a starred review. I've heard people say that this is the best one yet. It is a great book. I'm curious if you've gotten any reviews or feedback from people in the U.S. attorney's office or people at the FBI. Wonder what they have to think about your books.

[James Comey]

Not well, in general, I've gotten reviews from them. They haven't read FDR Drive because you. You got to read it early. And so the people who have read it are my loved ones and my friends, many of whom have experience in the FBI, the U.S. attorney's offices, and they also really like it. And I don't know whether that's because I'm getting better at doing it or whether they know the characters that it's like returning to a familiar set of friends, I don't know. But I've been pleased by the results there. In general, the folks who have read my book so far think I get it right, that I capture the way things really work. And obviously, I'm writing because most of my friends are pains in the ass who would love it if I made a small mistake about how things really work. And so I work really hard to get it exactly right. And I don't think that gets in the way of it being exciting, because the work is exciting. And I'm trying to show readers through fiction the way things really are. And it's really pretty exciting. And so the reviews have been good from my former colleagues.

Yeah, I think it is exciting, and I think it's exciting in a way that feels more real than when you're just sort of seeing, you know, someone who doesn't have any experience and hasn't really done much research sort of badly depict people in the U.S. attorney's offices, like, doing stuff that they would never do in real life. I think that takes people out of a story when it's like, U.S. attorney wouldn't be going undercover. What's this? This feels very lived in, as I mentioned, and it feels very real. And that makes it more suspenseful.

Yeah, that's the main criticism that people in the business have of crime fiction, that it doesn't get us right or that the author has generated excitement by having an agent or a prosecutor go rogue when there are, of course, rogue investigators and rogue prosecutors. But it's a very, very unusual thing, and it's not necessary, because if you know the work, you can show the work in a way that's pretty exciting with it being real.

Absolutely. One thing that was exciting to me that I wanted to mention is that we go to the College of William and Mary in this one. Of course, you and I both attended there.

[Unknown]

I was thrilled.

[James Comey]

I was thrilled. Kevin at one point, just was like, anya, the cheese shop is in it. And I was like, yes, like Krim Dell Cheese Shop. And I thought that was delightful. First of All. So thanks. Second of all is the sandwich. You listed your favorite sandwich from the cheese shop in the book that you mentioned, or is that.

Yeah, it's one of my favorites. And so I had to. Had to go there. Yeah. I couldn't take a scene to Williamsburg without touching some of my favorite places and foods. And so that's why it's there. That's what's cool about fiction, is you can figure out, you know, where would I like to go and show readers. And so, yeah, I can taste that sandwich.

Yes. And, yeah, and it's very much. You're like a travel agent kind of bringing everyone. So, I mean, I guess in the future, can we hope for. I know you mentioned in previous interviews possibly wanting to do more books, sort of more set in Virginia. Is that something that you're still planning?

Yes, and I'm creeping closer and closer. The fourth book, which I'm finishing now, I'm bringing Nora to D.C. on a temporary basis, and I'd like to take readers farther south and show more of Virginia. And I have in mind a different series in Richmond that I would really enjoy writing.

That would be fast. Richmond's a great city, so that was super cool. You've kind of told us your plans about the fourth book. Anything else to share on, anything we can expect going forward?

Well, you can expect another book next May, which would be. And I have a contract for two more, and I don't know how many there'll be beyond that. And so next May, it'll be an espionage thriller, taking you inside again of something that's real and current, the Russian espionage threat. And don't worry, there's a murder. It's going to open with a murder. And so there's that. And I have a murder at one of my favorite restaurants in New York. So it will ruin it for lots of people who enjoy penne vodka, pasta. But it's a. Again, it's my characters, but a different part of the work and a different part of the FBI's capabilities as well, that I've really enjoyed getting into and bringing to and will enjoy bringing to readers next year.

[Unknown]

I can't wait. I'm also very interested in the Virginia series. I think at one point you even said you might do a series set in Chicago, if I recall correctly.

[James Comey]

Yep. Yep. This is my job, and so they can't get rid of me. And so we will. Obviously, as an author, what I have to decide is, do I bring my protagonists or do we create a different set of protagonists for different places? And I haven't solved that yet.

Well, we can't wait to see what you do next. And we're really excited about the next book. FDR Drive was amazing. And we'll include some links on where you can get that in our show notes. And we would strongly recommend everyone check it out.

[Anya Cain]

Is there anything we didn't ask you.

[James Comey]

About that you wanted to mention?

Think so. Not. Not that I can think of.

We nailed it then. Awesome.

Well, you always nail it.

That's very nice. Thank you so much. It's always such a pleasure to talk.

[Unknown]

To you and we can't wait to do it again next year.

[James Comey]

Yeah, we're really same same. That's why I've told the publisher this is one I have to do. So I will see you again next maybe.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Thank you so much.

[James Comey]

Thank you so much.

All right, be well. It's great to see you guys.

You too. Bye. Bye.

[Anya Cain]

Thanks to James Comey for coming on our show. We always love to have him on.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Please check out FDR Drive. It's a great read. We both enjoyed it. We included some links in our show notes to places where you can buy it. Thanks so much for listening to the Murder Sheet. If you have a tip concerning one of the cases we cover, please email [e-mail] if you have actionable information about an unsolved crime, please report it to the appropriate authorities.

[Anya Cain]

If you're interested in joining our Patreon, that's available at www.patreon.com murdersheet. If you want to tip us a bit of money for records requests, you can do so at www. Buymeacoffee.com murdersheet. We very much appreciate any support.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Special thanks to Kevin Tyler Greenlee, who composed the music for the Murder Sheet and who you can find on the [e-mail] if you're looking to talk with.

[Anya Cain]

Other listeners about a case we've covered, you can join the Murder Sheet discussion group on Facebook. We mostly focus our time on research and reporting, so we're not on social media much. We do try to check our email account, but we ask for patience as we often receive a lot of messages. Thanks again for listening.

[Unknown]

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[James Comey]

Thanks.

Have a good one.

[Unknown]

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