Policing Across the Pond: The Differences Between Law Enforcement in the United States and the United Kingdom

Summary

Murder Sheet Episode Summary

Episode Title: Policing Across the Pond: The Differences Between Law Enforcement in the United States and the United Kingdom
Date: December 23, 2025
Host(s): Áine Cain & Kevin Greenlee
Guest: Ruth (former constable from Grimsby, England)

---

Episode Overview

This episode of The Murder Sheet features an illuminating and often candid conversation with Ruth, a former British police officer from Grimsby, England. The discussion dives into the structural, cultural, and personal differences between policing in the UK and the US. Ruth draws on her 11 years of British policing experience (2005–2016), including stints in community policing and child protection, to provide first-hand insight and compare the UK's more centralized, less militarized law enforcement approach to the multifaceted American system.

---

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Ruth’s Background and Path into Policing

• Ruth describes growing up in Grimsby and humorously calls it “the armpit of the UK” due to its geography (05:47).
• She was drawn to policing for job security, not a lifelong passion:

  "I didn't join because I thought, oh, I always want to be a police officer. It was literally job security, which is maybe not the best reason." (07:38)

• Ruth reflects on her 11-year career, her shift into mental health and then domestic abuse support roles after leaving policing (05:47, 53:42).

2. Training and Early Duties

• UK police training lasts 16 weeks, with subsequent local placements and a period of tutelage (08:14).
• “I was put in community... a lot of ASB [antisocial behaviour], quite a drug problem in Grimsby...” (08:31)
• Ruth describes the decline of Grimsby with the fall of its fishing industry and the subsequent rise in deprivation, drug abuse, and violence.

3. Policing Structure & Weapons

• UK policing is centralized: “We have the police. That's it.” Multiple special units exist, but nothing like the plethora of US agencies (20:00).
• Most British police are unarmed, with only specialized firearms units:

  “Firearms wise, there was a firearms unit... quite often an hour away. Which to you guys probably sounds quite crazy.” (12:20–13:06)

• “Guns are not a huge thing [in Grimsby]... guns are just not a thing.” (13:11)

4. Drugs and Crime Trends

• Ruth outlines local drug issues: heroin in the 2000s, later “spice” (synthetic cannabinoid), and mentions MDMA incidents (10:08–11:53).
• Describes witnessing a violent MDMA incident:

  “He just had these superpowers... took six of us to pin him down...” (11:54)

• County lines drug operations and regional violence, but gun crime remains rare (13:39–14:53).

5. Court Testimony & UK Legal System Differences

• Ruth explains the three types of UK courts: Magistrates (low-level), Crown Court (serious crime, "wigs and gowns"), and Family Court (non-criminal, for family welfare) (32:19–33:57).
• On being cross-examined by numerous barristers:

  “I must have been... maybe 26, 27... all these people coming at me. That was that. Thankfully. I need to see that once.” (33:45)

• Distinction between solicitors (interview/case prep) and barristers (Crown Court trials) discussed (35:59).
• The formality of UK courts versus the US, including the centuries-old tradition of barristers’ wigs (34:05):

  “Some of those wigs are hundreds of years old as well. And I bet they absolutely stink.” (34:05)

• Victim sensitivity: removal of wigs and gowns to ease child witnesses (34:43).

6. The Emotional Load of Policing—Child Protection Work

• Ruth describes interviewing traumatized children and vulnerable victims:

  “This little girl that's playing with toys whilst talking... about the most horrendous things in the world.” (22:49)

• Explains the professional detachment needed:

  “I couldn't react. I wasn't allowed to react... had to be so professional and matter of fact.” (28:00)

• Child protection role is tenured due to high burnout:

  “It's not a job that you could stay in long term for your own mental health.” (30:08)

7. Police Custody and Detention (UK v. US Comparison)

• UK police custody (cells at station before court/remand) vs. US jail/prison system:

  “We have police custody, which I guess is your jail, but people are in jail awaiting trial... and then we have prison.” (26:14)

8. American vs. British Policing—Structure & Law

• Ruth expresses confusion and some amusement about the US’s many police and prosecution agencies, differing laws by state, the use of guns, and the prevalence of officer-involved shootings.
• “We just have the police... there's different agencies within the police... but as a whole, it's just the police.” (20:00)
• States’ rights, separate laws, and inconsistent sentencing in the US surprise her (39:36).

9. Community Focus and Lack of Routine Armament

• Emphasis on foot patrol, police community support officers (PCSOs), and the philosophy of unarmed police unless substantial threat (44:25, 45:12):

  “PCSOs... they can't detain people... totally unarmed... They do a lot of community stuff.” (44:29)

10. Burnout and Moving On

• Ruth explains her reasons for leaving the police: stress, emotional exhaustion, and burnout (49:13).
• The positive change upon leaving:

  “When I went to work in mental health... it was like the weight of the world had been lifted off my shoulders.” (51:21)

• She does not miss police work:

  “I see a police car flying around on blue lights, and I was thinking, I'm so thankful it's not me in that car.” (52:13)

11. Transferable Skills & Later Roles

• Ruth works in mental health and coordinates high-risk domestic abuse and sexual abuse support meetings (53:42–56:54).
• Only about half of domestic abuse is ever reported in the UK; significant underreporting and barriers remain (56:20).

12. Cultural and Everyday Differences

• Culture shock around British police being unarmed, the rarity of police shootings, and the structure of UK/US court/prosecutor systems.
• Funny asides:
  • Ruth struggles to pronounce “Indiana” (57:03)
  • Discussion of British/US linguistic quirks (“I’m curious”) (57:49)
  • Lighthearted riffing on American and British stereotypes (ice cream vans, police patrols, 4-hour road trips for food) (41:51–43:21)
• The historical connection between British and American legal systems, and local pilgrim history in Ruth’s area (60:21–61:28).

---

Notable Quotes & Moments

| Timestamp | Speaker | Quote / Moment | |------------|---------------|-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------| | 07:38 | Ruth | “I didn't join because I thought, oh, I always want to be a police officer. It was literally job security, which is maybe not the best reason.” | | 13:06 | Ruth | “Firearms wise, there was a firearms unit... quite often an hour away. Which to you guys probably sounds quite crazy.” | | 22:49 | Ruth | “This little girl that's playing with toys whilst talking... about the most horrendous things in the world.” | | 26:14 | Ruth | “We have police custody, which I guess is your jail, but people are in jail awaiting trial... and then we have prison.” | | 34:05 | Ruth | “Some of those wigs are hundreds of years old as well. And I bet they absolutely stink.” | | 45:12 | Ruth | “PCSOs... they can't detain people... totally unarmed... They do a lot of community stuff.” | | 49:13 | Ruth | “It got to a point where I guess now you'd call it burnout. At the time, nobody really cared.” | | 52:13 | Ruth | “I see a police car flying around on blue lights, and I was thinking, I'm so thankful it's not me in that car.” |

---

Timestamps for Key Segments

• [05:47–07:52] Ruth’s background and path into policing
• [08:14–09:53] Training and early police duties
• [10:08–11:53] Drug trends in Grimsby
• [12:20–13:39] Policing structure, firearm use, guns in the UK
• [20:00–22:28] Comparison of US and UK policing structures
• [22:49–30:34] Child protection, emotional resilience, court processes
• [32:19–35:01] UK courts, Crown Court, wigs and rituals
• [39:36–41:28] Laws by state in US vs UK, sentencing, system complexity
• [44:00–45:12] Foot patrol vs vehicles, PCSOs, unarmed policing
• [49:13–53:28] Burnout, transitioning out of policing
• [53:42–56:54] Work in mental health and domestic abuse; underreporting stats
• [57:03–58:46] Cultural and language differences, linguistic quirks
• [60:21–61:28] Legal and cultural history links, pilgrim connections

---

Tone and Language

The conversation is frank, personal, and peppered with Ruth’s characteristically dry British wit. The hosts, Áine and Kevin, balance curiosity with respect and provide clear explanations of American procedures for Ruth—and listeners—when needed. Ruth’s blend of professionalism, lived experience, and humor make for an engaging and informative transatlantic exchange.

---

Summary for New Listeners

This episode offers a rare inside look at British policing from the ground level, told in Ruth’s own words, with honest reflection on both institutional strengths (community focus, de-escalation, centralized law) and weaknesses (burnout, resource limits). The comparisons to American systems are thoughtful, exposing both the challenges and quirks of each country’s approach to law, order, and justice.

---

End of Summary

Transcript

[Anya Cain]

It's cold. The holidays are coming up and it's time to refresh your wardrobe effortlessly with our wonderful sponsor, Quince.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Quince makes uplifting your style easy and affordable. We're talking luxury goods for less Mongolian cashmere sweaters to Italian wool coats Just in time to deck the halls for.

[Anya Cain]

The holidays, Quince keeps prices down on these premium fashion staples by cutting out the middleman. We're talking prices 50% less than those of their competitors.

[Kevin Greenlee]

My quince sweaters are quickly becoming my go to garments as the temperatures fall. I really enjoy putting on my Australian merino wool cable crew neck sweater and my Navy Mongolian cashmere crew neck sweater. They are so soft and do an incredible job keeping me comfortable in these temperatures.

[Anya Cain]

Kevin is too modest to say, but he also looks very cute in them. Whether you're treating yourself for the holidays or looking for terrific gifts for your loved ones, Quinn's is the place to go for coats, sweaters, silk shir and dresses and much more. We're confident you'll love Quince as much as we do, and with prices 50% less than other brands, they make it easy to stay stylish without squeezing your wallet.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Get your wardrobe sorted out and your gift list handled with quints. Don't wait. Go to quints.commsheet for free shipping on your order and 365 day returns. Now available in Canada too. That's Q U I n c e.com msheet free shipping and 365 day returns.

[Babbel Representative]

Quince.com msheet parlez tout hablaspanol par l' italiano if you've used Babbel, you would Babbel's Conversation Based techniques teaches you useful words and phrases to get you speaking quickly about the things you actually talk about in the real world. With lessons handcrafted by over 200 language experts and voiced by real native speakers, Babbel is like having a private tutor in your pocket. Start speaking with Babbel today. Get up to 55% off your Babbel subscription right now at babbel.com wandery spelled b a b b e l.com wandery rules and restrictions may apply.

[Shopify Representative]

Shopify's Point of Sale system helps you sell at every stage of your business. Need a fast and secure way to take payments in? We've got you covered. How about card readers you can rely on anywhere you sell?

[Ruth]

Thanks.

[Shopify Representative]

Have a good one. Yep, that too. Want one place to manage all your online and in person sales? That's kind of our thing. Wherever you Sell businesses that grow grow with Shopify. Sign up for your $1 a month trial at shopify.com listen shopify.com listen content.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Warning this episode contains discussion of domestic abuse and a reference to the abuse of children.

[Anya Cain]

If you're like us, you probably enjoy watching films and television shows and docuseries about mysteries and crime. Some of those might be set in the United States, but plenty might be based all around the world, and that can make understanding those cases a bit more complicated.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Other countries have different legal systems, different ways of holding criminal trials, different structures and methods for policing and law enforcement.

[Anya Cain]

With that in mind, we have a good group of listeners based in the United Kingdom, which is super cool. We happened to connect with one of those listeners recently and found out that she served as a constable in the United Kingdom. Her name's Ruth and she's awesome. We convinced her to come on the show and talk about her experience. We hope that this will help our listeners on both sides of the Atlantic Ocean learn more about the differences and similarities in policing in the United States and the United Kingdom. Could be a nice primer if you're following a case that's taking place abroad. My name is Anya Cain. I'm a journalist.

[Kevin Greenlee]

And I'm Kevin Greenlee. I'm an attorney.

[Anya Cain]

And this is the Murder Sheet.

[Kevin Greenlee]

We're a true crime podcast focused on original reporting, interviews, and deep dives into murder cases. We're the Murder Sheet and this is.

[Anya Cain]

Policing across the the Differences between Law enforcement in the United States and the United Kingd.

[Ruth]

Sam.

[Fellow Interviewer]

First of all, Ruth, thank you so much for joining us here on the Murder Sheet today. We really appreciate it.

[Ruth]

Thank you. I can't actually believe it's happening, but hi. It's real. Yeah, it really is.

[Fellow Interviewer]

Yeah, we hear that sometimes when we interview listeners, then suddenly we're talking to them instead of at them. And like what?

[Ruth]

I'm so used to hearing your voice. I listen to all your podcasts. Usually when I'm with the horse either. When I'm riding, I'm on your patreon. So I'm used to seeing I catch up with your lives and now you're actually talking to me. You know I exist, which is weird. I love it.

[Fellow Interviewer]

It's like your own personal real life podcast. Well, we're really grateful to you for, for taking the time. And you know, when we found out about your background, we were just really curious to learn more about your experience and I think a lot of our listeners would be very interested too. I guess to start out, Ruth can You just tell us a little bit about yourself.

[Ruth]

So I am from Grimsby in England, in the uk. So Grimsby, it's kind of Northeast Midlands area. I describe it as the armpit of the UK because of the way it looks on the map. On the east side of the uk, there's a little sticky out, but then comes back in and then out again. I live in the end of the horse mats. Got my little dog. I just had to kick out because it's so noisy. Yeah. I was a police officer for 11 years. 2005, Independence Day, joined 2005 until 2016, decided it wasn't for me, left, went to work in mental health and then I worked myself a little bit and now I work in domestic abuse. That's me in a nutshell.

[Fellow Interviewer]

Wow, that's, that's. I mean, that's quite a career. And definitely those shifts. And I, I want to ask you, you know, like, what, what was it like serving as a police officer in the uk? Like, what did that look like? How did you decide that that was what you wanted to do? For a time?

[Ruth]

I probably joined for the wrong reasons. Prior to working in the place, I worked for the local authority and we were forever having to reapply for our jobs, restructuring, downsizing. And it got to the point where I thought, I can't keep reapplying for my own job. I want something that's kind of long term, secure. So if people join the British police, I don't know, it's like in, in America, you join for 30 years, you do 30 years, you retire, that's it. So I was like, okay, I need a career that's going to, that I'm securing. I saw an advert in a paper back in the days when we used to read papers for Humberside Police. So I thought, oh, I'll apply. 18 months later. Somehow I got in every day. I stood at my locker, I used to unlock my locker and I think, how did I slip through the net? How did. I didn't join because I thought, oh, I always want to be a police officer. It was literally job security, which is maybe not the best reason. Yeah.

[Fellow Interviewer]

But I mean, I'm sure, I'm sure that does draw a lot of people, in fairness.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Yeah.

[Ruth]

Yeah. I mean, it's a good job, it's well paid, the pension, you know, great. But it just turned out that it wasn't for me. I'm glad I did it, like I said.

[Fellow Interviewer]

Absolutely. And I wanted to ask you, you know, what is, what are like when you're Starting out in that position. What sort of things are you doing in the community?

[Ruth]

It depends really. So like I say, it took 18 months to get in. We go to training school for 16 weeks. Used to be residential. I don't know what it is now. But then just before I joined, they brought it back to traveling to Hull, which is our local, our closest city. So that's about 40 minutes away. 16 weeks there. Then the very kindly gave us a week off and then we went to our. Wherever we was going to be based. I was based in my hometown, which was pretty rare at the time. Most of the people that I were placed elsewhere that lived. So you worked out of town, but for some reason I was placed in Grimsby. Ten weeks of being tutored and then depending on kind of your skill set, it depended as to where you was placed next. So I was put into community. A lot of officers will go on to respond, so they'll go straight into the thick of it. I think my tutor noticed that that maybe wasn't quite right for me initially. So I was put in community. It was a lot of asb. So antisocial behavior. There's quite a drug problem in Grimsby. Lots of depravity due to the. The history of the town. We used to be a really big fishing port. We used to be the world's biggest fishing port in the. In the 50s and the decline of the British fishing industry, it's kind of left a. A pretty deprived place. Town in places. So, yeah, there was a lot of foot patrol. I was jealous of all my friends that were in cars flying around to go into nine, nine calls and blue lights. And if I was walking around the roughest parts of Grimsp. Well, yeah, there was lots of antisocial behavior, kind of neighborly problems, stuff like that.

[Fellow Interviewer]

So 999 is the British equivalent of our 911 in the United States.

[Ruth]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, that.

[Fellow Interviewer]

That makes it. And then as far as the drug issue, what type of drugs were the predominant problem at the time?

[Ruth]

So early 2000s, it was heroin. I remember being at training school and one of the. One of the drug trainers came in and he was talking about all different places where he was going, and he's like, grimspeed is a really big heroin problem. I remember thinking, no, there isn't. Because I lived this nice little life now. I've always had horses kind of a little bit out in the country. Very naive. Thought I knew everything. Got to Grimsby and I was like, oh, my God, there really is. That's kind of changed a Little bit. Now there's spice, spice that you have over your side.

[Fellow Interviewer]

I think it is, I've heard of it, but I don't know what it is.

[Ruth]

Yeah, I'm not 100% sure what it is, but yeah, there's still this. As far as I've aware, there's still a very big heroin problem in Grimsby.

[Fellow Interviewer]

I'm reading that it, it's a, it's a kind of a synthetic perhaps. Perhaps a synthetic cannabinoid. I'm. I've definitely heard of it over here.

[Ruth]

Yeah. So when I, when I commented on your patreon about how I knew how drugs got into prison, that was the one I was thinking of. That's how, that's how they get spies into prison. They put it into the paper and then they smoke it. But it put, like you said, it puts people in like a zombie state. It was really, really strange to see. You would drive down, so there's a street called Freeman street in Grimsby and which is probably one of the roughest streets and there would just be. It's a bit dramatic but there'd just be so many people that just looked in this zombie state and it's really quite sad to see. I think it got to the point where the heroin probably wasn't strong enough. So they were topping up with spice. I don't know. But yeah, MDMA was quite a big thing at one point as well. Which is the. I think. Is it pure form of cannabis, Ecstasy?

[Fellow Interviewer]

Yes.

[Ruth]

I remember going to one incident where this 15 year old boy had taken some MDMA and he was, it was like Hulk. He just had these superpowers. Like we. It took six of us to pin him down because he was just such of this super strength on the trucks. He's taken. Crazy. That is crazy.

[Fellow Interviewer]

And it's scary to deal with. I'm curious, I don't know this. Are all British police officers armed or is it different from the United States?

[Ruth]

I don't know what the percentage is, but it's really, really quite low. Some officers have tasers. So I left in 2016. So, you know, we're talking nine years now. So things will have changed. But firearms wise, there was a firearms unit, they were based over in Hull, which is a place where I said we went for our training school. So they were quite often an hour away. Which to you guys probably sounds quite crazy. Like if we had somebody with a gun or any kind of weapon, literally. We've closed down streets in the past. I remember a guy pulled a firearm on A paramedic and we have this. We have the street closed off and we was waiting like nearly an hour for firearms to come. But to us that's quite normal because guns are not a huge thing.

[Fellow Interviewer]

Right. I feel like you can get away with that if guns are not everywhere.

[Ruth]

Very few people where I live anyway. Grimsby is a very. It's on the road to nowhere. You don't pass through Grimsby. You only come here if you either go into the beach or you've taken the wrong turn. So guns are not. Guns are not a huge thing. Obviously places. Liverpool's quite. Got quite a bad rap at the minute. So guns, London. But yeah, Grimsby, it's. Guns are just not a thing.

[Fellow Interviewer]

Was there a lot of violent crime, non gun crime or was that relatively rare?

[Ruth]

Yeah, violent crime in Grimsburg. It was at one point the most violent town per population in the uk. It's a very violent place. Like I said. I don't know what it's like now, but at the time it was. Most of the incidents that we went to were violence, whether that be domestic. We don't really have gangs or anything like that. There's a little bit more of a kind of gang vibe. I don't know how much you know about county lines in the uk, nothing. So Liverpool, Birmingham, Manchester are kind of the heartlands of where the drugs are coming from. And they have the runners. So they'll have boys that they send out to different towns to sell the drugs. In one town you might have three different kind of gangs that are selling the drugs. They fight with each other. That was becoming more prevalent when I left. There's a culture of not grassing each other up. So it was all quite. It was quite unknown. But yeah, they were not very nice to each other. They were quite often like cut each other's hands off or cut each other's arms off as punishment.

[Fellow Interviewer]

Geez Louise. And I feel proud of myself because I know what grassing means because I'm Irish. That means that's our equivalent of snitching, right?

[Ruth]

Yeah, snitching. Yeah.

[Fellow Interviewer]

I know a Super Grass is like a snitch, like an informant who's like. Really? Yeah. So that. That's the only time I know that.

[Ruth]

Super Grass is a band from the 90s in the UK.

[Fellow Interviewer]

Yeah. That's you.

[Ruth]

Yeah. What is it? Snitches get stitches. You a grass over here? I don't know where that comes from. Grass.

[Fellow Interviewer]

It's a fun term though. I mean, but it's. So these gangs are kind of the Predominant, I mean, is how, how are the, I mean, I know in the United States are. The big thing we have is fentanyl right now coming from China, going through Mexico, being synthesized by the cartels and coming up through the southern border.

[Ruth]

Fentanyl. I don't, I don't know if even that's even a thing over here. I see it as a very American drug. Is it, is it something you can get prescribed over there?

[Fellow Interviewer]

So it's, it does have normal uses mostly through anesthesia. So like you can, it can be used in a totally legal way and that's fine. And actually the first people who got addicted to it were medical professionals. It's very, it can be addictive and it can cause problems, but you can use it normally. My dad's actually an anesthesiologist, so he's like, oh yeah, we, you know, like that's, you can use it, but it's not really something that would be typically like taken.

[Ruth]

Yeah, I don't think it's a thing over here. I stand corrected if it is, but not something I, I've ever come across.

[Fellow Interviewer]

Yeah, no, absolutely. It's, it's, it's terrible. I mean it's definitely very dangerous. So I hope it doesn't become a thing. In the uk.

[Ruth]

Yeah, over here it's, it's heroin, cocaine, cannabis.

[Fellow Interviewer]

I'm curious, you know, like is, is, is the uk like when you were a police officer there is that. Was cannabis like legal or becoming legalized or decriminalized or any movement on that?

[Ruth]

It is illegal. At one point it was. I don't know what class it is now. So we have a, we have ABC classes. A class A is obviously heroin. Your cocaine, the strongest. At one point it was downgraded to a C I think, but I believe it's gone back to a B. So no, it's not legal. There's the ongoing debates about medical use. I think it can be used for medical use, but obviously that's, that's through your doctor. But yeah, cannabis is, it's illegal in the uk.

[Anya Cain]

If you had the power to stop a crime before it happened, wouldn't you do it? What if that crime was done against yourself or your own family? Well, with Simplisafe's home security system, you can stop break ins and burglaries before they even happen.

[Kevin Greenlee]

The big problem with traditional home security systems is that they react after an intruder is already breaking in or even inside. At that point, intrusion, it's far too late. Your peace of mind is gone. The moment someone intrudes on your space.

[Anya Cain]

Simplisafe is different. Thanks to their advanced home security technology, AI powered cameras can lock onto potential threats outside. If a prospective intruder approaches live, agents step in to confront the person via a camera. Now, the potential bad guys know that someone's watching and also prepare to dispatch police in an instant. The agents can also start blaring sirens and flashing lights.

[Kevin Greenlee]

We have relied on Simplisafe to keep our homes safe for years. We trust them with our safety. It's great knowing someone is looking out for you and your family. It does wonders for our peace of mind, especially since we've gotten threats in the past over our reporting.

[Anya Cain]

Simplisafe really does have your back. No hidden fees, no long term contracts, no punishment for canceling at any time. Try it out today. You even get a 60 day money.

[Fellow Interviewer]

Back guarantee this month.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Only take 50% off any new system. This is one of the best prices you will ever see for Simplisafe. Don't miss it. Hit simplisafe.com msheet again. That's simplisafe.com msheet and lock in your discount. There is no safe like Simplisafe.

[Kelly Clarkson]

Hey, what's up, y'?

[Fellow Interviewer]

All?

[Kelly Clarkson]

Kelly Clarkson with Wayfair. My favorite thing about the holidays, decking out my whole house. It's not a competition competition. But if it was, well, I'd win the season with Wayfair outdoor inflatable Santa.

[Fellow Interviewer]

Got it on.

[Ruth]

Wayfair.

[Kelly Clarkson]

Trees, lights and ornaments. Wayfair hosting must haves like dining sets, beds, sheets and towels. Wayfair for everything in your style, delivered with fast and free shipping. Visit Wayfair.com or the Wayfair app to win the season. But again, it's not a competition.

[Shopify Representative]

Wayfair every style, every home.

[Fellow Interviewer]

One thing I wanted to ask you about is, you know, in the United States we have like different law enforcement agencies that sometimes have to work together. So you might have your county sheriff, state police, you might have your local city police, you might have your federal agents like the FBI or the atf. You know, do you, did you ever have to deal with that as a police officer in Guernsey? Were there or is it more like the local people deal with this?

[Ruth]

We have the place. That's it. Yeah, I listen to, I listen to yourself. I listen to the prosecutors, all these different podcasts and all these different types of, like you just said, the sheriffs and the state and the FBI. I'm like, what, what is this? We just have, we just have the police I mean, there's this, there's different agencies within the police. So you've got your murder teams, child protection. I did work in child protection for a while. Terrorism units, firearms units. But it, it's just as a whole, it's just the police, there's the intelligence services, you've got MI5, MI. Is it MI15? All the kind of James Bond type things. But we, we wouldn't, if they were involved, we would never know. Yeah, it's just, it's just the police. It's really boring, really.

[Fellow Interviewer]

No, it's not boring. I mean, it's kind of streamlined in a way. It kind of.

[Ruth]

I mean, it's so straightforward, isn't it?

[Fellow Interviewer]

Yeah, you don't, you don't end up getting into quarrels with people who like, oh, you're trying to take over the case. This is a dumb question, I apologize. Like, is this, is it all one? Is like, are you guys connected with like the people who are police in Liverpool and London? Like, is it all one national service?

[Ruth]

So, so it's split down into different forces. I think there's 46 forces across police. Scotland is different. So you. England and Wales, I'm sure there's 46, 46 forces. So I was in Humberside Police. So we covered. There was four divisions. There was Grimsby, which is Grimsby, Cleethorps and Emmingham, which is basically just kind of the same place. There was Scunthorpe, which was down the road and then across, we call it the Bank. So across on the other side of the bank, which is across the River Humber, there was Hull, which is the city that I was talking about. And then there was kind of the, the picturesque leftovers of a little bit of Yorkshire that we had. We were based in our own areas, but we, we occasionally we would have to go over and help in Scunthorpe or 2 o' clock in the morning. I was once sent over to hall because they were short staffed or whatever, but we were primarily in our own areas. Some of the forces are absolutely tiny, like really small, like the City of London, because there's the Met that cover London. But then if I'm right, kind of around Parliament, Buckingham palace, all the touristy, all those places you think of, they've got a tiny little place for us, the City of London.

[Fellow Interviewer]

That's so funny if you think of like, I think if you had said, oh, the City of London Police, I would have been like, that's probably huge.

[Ruth]

I, I'm hoping nobody from the Met or City of London listens to this because they might be thinking, well that's.

[Fellow Interviewer]

Not true, but in your time, did you ever work on any like, interesting cases that sort of stand out to you or like just that kind of like, or loom large in your memory?

[Ruth]

Yeah, it was, it was mainly when I went in child protection. So when I was in child protection, I think it's the same in the us. My role in child protection was to interview victims of crime. So it was the sexual offences children, people that couldn't give, not couldn't, but wouldn't be suitable to give evidence in court. So we would record their, their evidence on a DVD and then that would be shown into the courtroom and then they'd be cross examined via video link. So that was my role. So a lot of the stuff that I dealt with, I mean, three years I did that, you can imagine, I heard everything. So after I did my training for that, I was seconded to the Family Protection Unit for three weeks to get my portfolio done. And my experience. The first interview was, was a four year old girl. I was not going to go into details but the, this sergeant said to me, she's not going to torture, she's going to say absolutely nothing. My God. She told, she went into detail and it was, it was, it was heartbreaking. This little girl that's playing with toys whilst talking to me about the most horrendous things in the world. Another. I was thinking about this earlier because I've just been thinking about this interview all day. I was thinking about this earlier when I was swimming randomly. I was trained to work in custody as well, so there was, there was a particular day when I was working in custody and there'd been a murder, it was a bond. Person started a fight, unfortunately it came off worse and he was killed. The guy that killed him came into custody and I was asked to swab his face for DNA, blood, et cetera. He wasn't very old, he was no more than 23, 24. So I'm swapping his face and he said to me, what time do you think I'll be out? Because I've got work in the morning. And I'm thinking to myself, you're not seeing the light of day for 25 years, mate. So that, that really sticks out in my mind. It's so. It's strange because you listen to these, you listen to your podcast and you hear about the murderers and they are the bad guy. Absolutely the bad guy. But there's also a human there as well. So I'm not defending I'm not, you know, obviously what he did was horrendous, but just the absolute innocence, as in not crime wise. The innocence of his thought at that time was, oh, got work in the morning. But you've just been seen to stab somebody. Like loads of people seen you stab somebody, so that really stands out.

[Fellow Interviewer]

And like, as someone working in the system, you do get to see the humanity in it. Whereas a lot of, as you said, our listeners and people were not in that situation. Yeah. Easier to just be like, well, this person's just a monster. But yeah, you see the human.

[Ruth]

Yeah, I mean, you don't know what's led up to that point. This, this. It's so complex, isn't it? It's not just you killed somebody, you're a bad person. Obviously they are. But yeah, like, it really struck me, I thought, God, you're not. Because obviously. Well, it's not obvious, but he was, he was charged, he was remanded, he was to court. So he, he didn't come out of custody. And he'll still, he'll still be there now. And that was, oh, that was 2015 maybe.

[Fellow Interviewer]

And, and custody is like basically jail. Like you're kind of being held over for trial.

[Ruth]

So the police stations, they're quite big places and they have their own, they have their own cells. There's a new unit now that's been built since I've left in Grimsby, but at the time there was 23 cells. There was a female side, there was a male side and there was a couple for juveniles. You would come in if you was charged, well for whatever, say you shock theft, you brought into custody, booked in and then he was placed in a cell whilst she was awaiting interview whilst the investigation was ongoing. They can only be held for 24 hours without an inspector's authority and that could go up to, up to 72 hours. Say they're charged to court, they're not given bail, they're charged, they, they're held in that same cell. And then the court staff, there's a little tunnel that runs under, underneath because the magistrates court is next door. So they, they will come and take them from the cell and they'll take them to magistrates court. So from there, if they're remanded even further, they go to prison. So we have police custody, which I guess is your jail, but people are in jail awaiting trial. Is that, is that right? That's right about Richard Allen and, and then we have prison, but there will be people in, in a prison that are on remand. So they get different rights because they've not been found guilty. So, yeah, again, it's more streamlined.

[Fellow Interviewer]

It is more streamlined, for sure.

[Anya Cain]

And.

[Fellow Interviewer]

And one. One thing I wanted to ask you, just going back a little bit, just the work you did in child protection and you mentioned, you know, this little girl opening up to you about what happened to her. You know, what sort of.

[Ruth]

How.

[Fellow Interviewer]

How are you kind of showing up to that work in a way that like, you know, crime victims, especially young ones, could kind of open up to you and sort of. So you could kind of learn their stories.

[Ruth]

Everything has to be victim led, so you can't lead the person into giving an answer because obviously it's going to court. We just had to be so not involved. And I guess over time this wall builds up and you just get so used to. I couldn't react. I wasn't allowed to react to what she was telling me. I had to be like, okay, take the evidence, get more information out of her if I could. But we couldn't. We could say maybe like, you know, it's okay, you do. Could even say you do well, really, because you don't want to be seen as biased. Yeah. I remember one girl, adult female, disclosing a horrific sexual offense. And I was just looking at her thinking, I really want to come over to you and just like, tell you everything's all right if. No, it obviously wasn't, but I couldn't. You just have to sit there and be so professional and matter of fact. But it's all in the training. So we were trained to a detective level, but on the victim side. So it was like a suspect interview, but a. A victim interview. I've got quite a. I've got better since I've left, but I've got quite a hard personality. Things tend not to bother me. Not that I didn't care, but that I don't get easily upset.

[Fellow Interviewer]

Yeah.

[Ruth]

So I was, I was. It wasn't a case of like, holding back tears or emotions, which makes me sound really horrible. That's just. I think policing in general does that too. Yeah. I think it makes you really, especially for women, really quite hard. I have softened since I've left. I do now cry at, like, silly adverts and stuff.

[Fellow Interviewer]

I don't think it makes you sound bad. I think, I mean, this is what Kevin and I talk about sometimes with lawyers, you know. You know, or even, you know, like physicians, you know, do you want your surgeon crying before he cuts into you? Yeah.

[Ruth]

Oh, God.

[Fellow Interviewer]

Oh, I feel so bad. I'M hurting this person. It's like, no, do your. Do your job. I mean, like, I imagine that is kind of a mental load though, when you're taking on all of this kind of suffering and then having to work.

[Ruth]

Yeah. Like you say, they start crying and if I start crying with them, we're not going to get anywhere, are we? Can't show that in court. The job that I, that particular role was tenured, so you're only supposed to do it for two years because people previously had broken down during interviews. Quite understandably, I managed to squeeze three years out of it. So it's not a job that you could stay in long term for your own mental health.

[Fellow Interviewer]

Yeah, that makes sense. And it sounds like also there's the legal consideration too, where, as you were saying, you don't want to be seen as encouraging or leading because then the case could fall apart at trial.

[Ruth]

Yes, that. So they're going back to the four year old girl that, that did actually end up in Family Court because we, because of her age, it was so difficult to prove what had actually happened. So it didn't go into family court. So we have the different courts. We've got Magistrates court where people can be sentenced up to six months, which is. I think there's three magistrates on the panel. You more so serious offences go to Crown Court and then there's family court, which is not criminal. I can't remember what the exact wording of it is, but it's a space where you could admit to anything and it cannot be used against you criminally. And I understand why it said that families are honest about what's really going on, so that social services, et cetera, can make informed decisions. But this particular, there was two suspects involved. They both have the same name, which. Same first name, which is very unfortunate. And when it got to Family Court, the barrister said that I'd told her who it was, I'd said it's A rather than it's B. And I'm sitting there, well, I'm standing in the dock thinking that's just not true. So the judge was like, PC Fleets, take yourself outside, read through the transcripts and then come back in. And I managed to find where she. Where the girl actually brought the name forward. I can't remember where I was going with that. That's where it could potentially end up. So, yeah, that's the lead. And you cannot lead them.

[Fellow Interviewer]

This actually segues really nicely into my next question about the courts. And it's just. You ever have to testify?

[Ruth]

Yeah, yeah. Not an awful lot, maybe. Sorry. In 11 years, I was a police officer, maybe. I don't know, ten times, maybe. I. I couldn't put a figure on it. Magistrates Court isn't. It's just a free for all, an absolute free for all. See, magistrates are volunteers. I think they get allowances, but I don't think they actually get paid. Your solicitors at magistrates level, they just let them do what they want. They. You. I was accused of being a liars, accused of being all sorts in Magistrates Court, whereas you go to Crown Court. So Crown Court is your wigs and your gowns. That's so British, isn't it? And your hammer. Probably not called a hammer, is it? That's Crown Court. That is what you see on the tv. It is professional. The judge keeps control. The judge will help you out. They will stick up for you if you're being laid into by a barrister. So when it goes to Crown Court, it's a barrister. So Crown Court was my favorite. If you had to pick a favorite, the family court was awful because everybody involved has got their own barrister. So in this particular case I was talking about earlier, Mub had their own barrister. Child had their own barrister. Both suspects had their own barristers. I just. Little old me. I must have been. Well, how old would I have been? I joined when I was 23. I was maybe 26, 27. And I just stood in the dark and there's all these people coming at me. That was that. Thankfully. I need to see that once.

[Fellow Interviewer]

It sounds much better. And as you said, I do love. I mean, Kevin and I talked about. We do love the wigs and the robes and the traditions.

[Ruth]

Some of those wigs are hundreds of years old as well. And I bet they absolutely stink. That's what I see when I've seen them putting on. I think, oh, God, that smells sweaty. Sweaty. Who has a sweaty head? But that's what comes to my mind. They're supposed to be really itchy as well.

[Fellow Interviewer]

Oh, my goodness.

[Ruth]

That's.

[Fellow Interviewer]

That's a lot to deal with. On top of actually having to do a trial as well.

[Ruth]

Can you imagine? You're a lot. Web.

[Fellow Interviewer]

I don't.

[Ruth]

I don't.

[Fellow Interviewer]

Yeah, I don't know. God, I don't know. And they also. They look kind of. They look kind of fun, but they look kind of like, wild to Americans. It's like, what?

[Ruth]

Yeah, I don't. I don't know where it. Where it comes from. It is one of the things that. So if you've got a vulnerable Victim. There is something that you can request to be removed. So the removal of wigs and gowns, so it makes it less formal. So they do sometimes take them off.

[Fellow Interviewer]

That's nice that they're considerate of, you know, like, you know, that's a very victim centric mentality. That's good.

[Ruth]

Yeah, yeah. I think they should bring it in. I think. Can we start a campaign to get weeks and gowns in the U.S.

[Fellow Interviewer]

Going in America too? Let's go.

[Ruth]

I'll send some over.

[Fellow Interviewer]

I'll ask Kevin what he thinks. No, it's so funny and still walking.

[Ruth]

Around in one of those gowns. I'm sure it is, it is.

[Fellow Interviewer]

I think our systems are similar and they obviously are judicial. Our, you know, legal system is, is descended from the UK system. It's like, you know, that's, that's the genesis of it. But you know, they developed in some different ways. But I, I think, but I, it is, it is kind of fun to think about. The one thing I always never understood was the difference between the barristers and the solicitors. I know they both are attorneys in, in the uk, but it sounds like they have, you know, slightly different roles.

[Ruth]

Yeah, the trainers, I don't know what the, what the difference is in the training, but your barristers and film star wages, your solicitors, I'm sure they're pretty well paid but it's your solicitors. So that will represent somebody in interview and then if it goes to magistrates then yeah, they will represent them in magistrates as well. But when it goes to Crown Court then it's the barrister step in.

[Fellow Interviewer]

I'm curious, you know you listen to a lot of different podcasts in true Crime, like you know, American cases, American policing. When you're listening to those, are there topics or things that come up where you're like, wow, they do things very differently.

[Ruth]

Yeah. So going to the Delphi, the different, the different tiers of your policing as well, that was, I didn't, I listened to all the first hand accounts. I didn't know who anybody was structure wise like Doug Carter and all these different people. Like, okay, so that, that's a huge difference. Yeah, this. I, I really. They're keeping people in jail underneath the police station as well. That blows my mind. Is that how it is everywhere?

[Fellow Interviewer]

So in terms of like usually it's in, in Indiana at least. Although it depends. If you're in a big city you might have, you know, like there's county jails.

[Ruth]

Right, okay. Yeah.

[Fellow Interviewer]

So like you have, you know, um. And then like in rural counties like Carroll county, where Delphi is, the jail is. You know, they actually just got a bigger jail. They had a tiny, tiny jail. Now they got a big one where they have more cells and more resources for people. And it's. We actually visited it. It's pretty. It's pretty nice. But, like, we, you know, I think that's where you keep people usually before their trial, and then if they're convicted, then they go to the prison.

[Ruth]

When I. When I think of American jails, I think of, like, western, old school sheriff with cowboy boots and the twizzly spurs. Big, big jail bars. And there's people like, let me out. Rattling the bars. That's what I picture. Please tell me that's what it's like. Like a spaghetti Western.

[Fellow Interviewer]

I wish it was like that.

[Ruth]

That's what I picture. I love it.

[Fellow Interviewer]

Oh, my God, I love it. Like, and I could. I mean, that's kind of how you think about it, though. Like, that is kind of like, until you've been there and then you see it's a lot less fun. But it's definitely like. I mean, that's kind of where a lot of. I mean, because the United States, I think, because it's so. There's some areas that are so rural and so spread out, there are not a lot of people. I think it just developed differently. And I think to your point about the policing, the way I see it is like the. The smaller counties, especially in Indiana, they often call on the state authorities, the state police. Like, they can't do. They don't have those kind of resources. Like, Sheriff's office has 13 people in it, so it's tiny.

[Ruth]

But what's the population?

[Fellow Interviewer]

I actually don't know off the top of my head. Let me actually pull that up, because I should know that. But it's like, it's very small. It's very spread out. Lots of wide open spaces. It. Yeah, about 20k, it looks like.

[Ruth]

Wow, that's still not a lot of people, is it?

[Fellow Interviewer]

No, it's tiny. And so, like, then they bring in state police, and then state police might bring in federal authorities because maybe they can help out a little bit. Maybe everyone has different resource levels. And so state police might want some help from the Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms or the Federal Bureau of Investigation, FBI. And there's sometimes tension.

[Ruth]

That's. That's another thing that he's just making me think about is the. The different states, the different laws in different states. So the law in the uk, like I say Scotland is Different England and Wales. The law is the law. I could commit a crime in Grimsby. I could commit the same crime in Liverpool. It's regardless, it's across the board. I was randomly on YouTube earlier, I saw the sentencing of, I want to say Peterson, who murdered his son or allowed his son to be murdered. I don't know the story, but when the judge was reading out the charges, there was a. There was a federal crime and then there was a. All these different state crimes. I don't know what it is. And I was, what are these things? The federal crimes have their own prisons, don't they? And their own sentences. Like what? Why? It's.

[Fellow Interviewer]

It's. I think it's because there's so many of so many states and so many different things and the federal government. And I'll tell you this, this is where it gets really weird. If you get sentenced to a crime in a state, oftentimes you're not going to serve that entire sentence. It depends on the state. But oftentimes you act out for good behavior, you're sentenced in federal court. You are probably like, you like that. You're not going to get any kind of considerations like that. Yeah, it's much worse. And then you have places where you might, like. I mean, it's just. It's so complicated. And you like in drug with drugs. Some states have legalized marijuana, others have not. Like Indiana here, it's not legal. Here in Michigan, you have all this like pot billboards. So like, there's kind of like. It's weird, honestly. Like, sometimes people say this, but like, the United States can feel like, you know, like several different countries in one sometimes.

[Ruth]

Yeah. Is it, is it not confusing? I mean, your states are massive, aren't they? Your states are huge.

[Fellow Interviewer]

Huge. And like, even within. I'm from New York, so, you know, New York City is very different from like upstate New York and just runs the gamut of very rural to very urban. And it's just, it's interesting. I mean, it keeps things interesting, I think. I love it because you can kind of visit different places and you're like, wow, this is so different.

[Ruth]

But yeah, I don't know if you can hear this. There's an ice cream van. This is very British. Can you hear that music?

[Fellow Interviewer]

No. What song is it?

[Ruth]

Oh, it's just the ice cream van music. Right, so it's what, quarter to 8 on a Wednesday? Is it Wednesday? It is Wednesday, isn't it? On a Wednesday night in May. And the ice cream man's here. It comes In February. It comes all year round. Anyway, we digress.

[Fellow Interviewer]

I'll tell you, there's a British horror author that I really enjoy and he wrote a story. One of his stories had an ice cream band in it and it was playing green sleeves, which I was like, I've always wondered, I'm like, is that a thing or did you just make that up?

[Ruth]

I don't know. I don't. There is, there is a song that they all seem to play. So it might, it might be green sleeves.

[Fellow Interviewer]

I don't know really. Okay, I need to look that up then. Because that always hard, didn't he?

[Ruth]

Oh well, it's just like. It's just always been there.

[Fellow Interviewer]

I don't.

[Ruth]

That's one of the things I don't think about. Just going back to what you were saying about how big the states are in America. So I remember that, see hearing a saying so in the uk. So my brother lives in Cheltenham, which is like three and a half hours away, which is like massive to us. It lives on the other side of the country. So a three and a half hour journey for us is huge. But you guys will drive four hours for taco. I remember, remember seeing that as a, or hearing that as a, like a saying or a meme somewhere. Four hours for food. Everyone drive four hours to see my brother.

[Fellow Interviewer]

That's amazing. I think that's generally true. I think three, three hours sounds like a lot to me. But we, I mean we've definitely driven that and Kevin and I are weird. We like to go on little like trips around. Like because Indiana is so centrally located, you could go to Kentucky or Michigan or Ohio, Illinois, you know, we went to Springfield, Illinois where all the Lincoln stuff is. So like you definitely do have that. It's a, it's a different culture and I think that's reflected in the policing too.

[Ruth]

Yeah, we've got a really good train service in the UK as well. Yeah. So you don't. You can live in the UK and not have a car. It'd be absolutely fine. There's still officers, there's still police officers that do foot patrol. Is that a thing over there? Do you have officers on foot patrol?

[Fellow Interviewer]

Yeah, I believe so in like kind of big cities. But, but, but definitely more driving base, especially in kind of the, the more spread out counties, I would say. And honestly you don't. I feel like I see more people, officers in cars, typically just where we are. But I think, you know, in some of the bigger cities you might get a bit of that. But yeah, traditionally like when you read old novels and stuff, you have the walking the beat and stuff.

[Ruth]

With a cape and a whistle. Yeah, we have PC, we have PCSOs over here. So police, community support officers, they look like police, they dress the same. Apart from under the police. It'll be really small. It'll just say community support officer. They don't have the same powers as a police officer, so they can't detain people. They are totally unarmed. They don't have handcuffs. So as a, as a British officer, you'll have handcuffs, pepper spray and a baton. These PC says they don't have anything. They are just walking around. But they do a lot of community stuff. So they'll a lot of the antisocial behavior stuff, etc. That I was talking about earlier, they do a lot of that. So you will see. We'll see. A lot of PC says walking around. You think it's probably think it's crazy that we don't have guns, but they just don't have anything.

[Fellow Interviewer]

Well, are they okay?

[Ruth]

Like, I mean, I'm sure they do get attacked from time to time, but it's not a. Something that you always hear about. It's good.

[Fellow Interviewer]

Yeah. I mean it sounds wild to me. But at the end, again, America is just drowning in guns. It's just this gun violence everywhere, constantly. So you know, if you're not, if you're not dealing with that, I think, you know, it might make a little more, you know, it makes more sense where. Well, that's not an issue. I mean you'd need like to quote the, the, I think it was the Untouchables. Like you don't want to bring a knife to a gunfight, but if you're not really having a gunfight, then yeah.

[Ruth]

I think that's another huge difference that when I listen to the podcast is officers killing people. I mean it does happen here. It's not to say that firearms officers haven't shot people, suspects, but it's not that common, whereas it seems to be. But again, it's a culture, isn't it? If you're met with a gun, you're going to react with the gun, aren't you?

[Fellow Interviewer]

I'm curious with, with the Crown Prosecution Service. So they do, they handle all criminal cases in the uk, right.

[Ruth]

So there are certain offenses. Don't ask me what they are because I can't remember now. There are certain offenses that a police sergeant can authorize a charge for your low level shock thefts, your low level assaults or anything of a particularly serious nature. The CPS authorized. And then they, when it's at Crown Court, they handle that. So they are the barristers, they are the prosecution.

[Fellow Interviewer]

Absolutely. So that. That is interesting because, like.

[Ruth]

Oh, go on.

[Fellow Interviewer]

I was gonna say here. It's just. So you might have, you know, a county prosecutor, you have federal prosecutors who are, you know, based out of U.S. attorney's offices. And then you have local prosecutors who are going to be the state level where they are representing a county. And so, you know, the quality can vary. You could have a really good prosecutor elected to your county or, you know, sometimes you get some not so good prosecutors.

[Ruth]

That's another thing as well. You elect your prosecutors. I always just go to law school, get the degree and pass the bar or whatever. And then, hi, I'm your prosecutor. Back in the day, back in the day, when I first started in the police, you'd interview a prisoner, you'd speak to your sergeant about it and they'd say, okay, you need to take that to the Crown Prosecution Service. And then you used to trot on down the corridor and you used to go to their office. They was there till a certain time of day and he used to go in and used to sit down with the prosecutor and discuss the case with them. I used to hate that. I was scared. Why?

[Fellow Interviewer]

Why were you?

[Ruth]

Because I was so young and naive and there was these barristers, they was there. I mean, back in like 2010, they was earning like 800 quid a day. I don't know what that would be. Now. They're probably earning thousands of pounds every day and as little on me. And they'd always. There was one, the lead prosecutor, Officer, it was a Scottish guy. Officer. Tell me about this officer. So nervous. They did away with that and it was done over the phone, which was much better because he didn't have to make eye contact. They can see. They could smell the fear, I think. I don't. I don't know. I don't know what I'm doing. It really was. He was a very good prosecutor. It's called Jeremy Evans. I remember it. Scottish guy. It's still on the go. I still see his name kicking around. But, yeah, you used to sit face to face. Officer Tummy. Oh, we know what PTSD for.

[Fellow Interviewer]

Well, it's a lot of pressure and it's good you were taking it seriously and like, you know, I wanted to ask you, you know, like, you, you. You decided to move on. What kind of went into that decision?

[Ruth]

I can't say I ever particularly enjoyed it. I liked the People I worked with. The best thing about the place, with the people we work with, the banter. I mean, those Brits, we've got good banter anyway, the people. If it wasn't for the people, it would have been awful. I remember being tutored so in the. So that after training school, being out with your tutor. So I've been. I've not even been a police officer for six months. I'm thinking, I don't like this, I don't like this. But I stuck it out. I'm not very good at all about being told what to do. I hate being told what to do, which in a disciplined force is not great. And it got to a point where I guess now you'd call it burnout. At the time, nobody really cared. I had three months off sick with stress because there'd been a murder and for whatever reason we weren't allowed to go home. This particular night we were supposed to finish at 3 o' clock in the morning. We were kept on till seven in the morning. And it was just like this build up of, I can't do this anymore. I cycled home because it's only around the corner police station. I got in the door and I just broke down in tears. And I am not a crier. And I was. I didn't know at the time, but I was hysterical. And I remember texting friends and saying, I can't, I can't do this anymore. So I went off sick, started looking for other jobs. I eventually went back and I remember being at a burglary and thinking, I don't care. I don't care that you've been burgled. Not that I didn't care that they'd been burgled, because that sounds really bad. Obviously it's horrendous that somebody's been into your house, but I remember thinking, I don't care. And at that point, that's not what you want in your police officers. So for me it was burnout. I just couldn't do it anymore. It wasn't right for me. The dread that I used to feel going through those gates was awful. And when I went to work in mental health, I left the place to go to mental health. I remember I used to walk because there's police stations that way. Where I used to work in mental health is that way. And I was walking back from a night shift and it was like the weight of the world had been lifted off my shoulders. I didn't realize how much stress I was under. It just wasn't for me, it's not for everybody. It's the kind of job that you love or you hate. I don't have any children. Nobody depends on me. Apart from the dog and the horse. They'll be fine. So I was in a. I was in a good position. I could just. I could leave. I took a 20 grand pay cut, my salary halved overnight. But money's not everything. So I know there are a lot of officers that are kind of stuck because the pension is so good and they've got children and they've got families that rely on them. I didn't. I was just like, right, that's it, I'm off. I'm glad I did it. I don't regret it at all because it's made me the person that I am now. I get asked all the time, do you miss it? I'm like, hell, no. No, I missed the money. But I see a police car flying around on blue lights, and I was thinking, I'm so thankful it's not me in that car.

[Fellow Interviewer]

Good for you for knowing yourself and just kind of making that change.

[Ruth]

I still can't believe I did it. I still can't believe that I actually left. I have a reoccurring dream. So it's nine years ago that I left. I have a reoccurring dream fairly regularly that I forget to leave. And I'm always working in custody because my last shift that I ever did was working in custody and I was sat in custody and I'll go, what's the date? Shit. I was supposed to have left a week ago. That is a reoccurring dream that I keep having. I couldn't tell you what day I left. I know I left in September. I can't remember. I can't tell you what day it was, what the date was, but I just really came in dream that I'm like, oh, oh my God, I've worked an extra week for free.

[Fellow Interviewer]

That's your brain telling you you made the right call.

[Ruth]

Yeah, yeah. So weird. And I wake up and I'm like, oh, God, that was just a dream. And I met some great people and there were fun times. There were some really fun times. But, yeah, I did my bit as.

[Fellow Interviewer]

Far as it goes. In terms of, like the work you've done since working in mental health, working in, you know, kind of addressing domestic violence, are those things where you were able to bring your experience as a police officer into your considerations around those?

[Ruth]

Yeah, definitely. There's very transferable skills. Mental health is just massive you know, you don't like yourself. We have in Grimsby, we're really fortunate. We've got a really good mental health service. It was one of the first, I think it was the first mental health service in the UK where you could just present. So they've got this really big building and you can present and say, I am struggling, I need help. And they would go, okay, we'll help you. Whereas everywhere else you have to go via your gp. Now gps are supposed to know everything about everything, aren't they? So they didn't always get the best service. Mental health wise, doctor, general practitioner, et cetera. It's like your own personal doctor, they call it a GP general practitioner. And yeah, so there was, I moved around a little bit. I did work on the secure units at times where people were in psychosis. If you ever, if you've ever seen somebody in psychosis, but it's really scary. So obviously my police history, I've had people coming at me with knives and bats and trying to get me in headlocks and all sorts. So see somebody in psychosis that obviously the police side helped with that. It also has its downside as well because I really struggled at first to like have empathy for people because of that barrier, that wall that policing builds up. Domestic violence. So I'm not allowed to call it domestic violence, just call it domestic abuse. So I, I work for. It's a domestic violence. Say that again. It's a domestic abuse and sexual abuse support service and I, I coordinate all the high risk incidents so people that are at risk of imminent serious injury or murder or suicide. I don't have to do any decision making, I don't interact with the victims. I purely coordinate these meetings. We have a meeting every two weeks. We average 40 cases every two weeks. So think it's for a small area. So again, the transferable skills. There's lots of multi agency working. So yeah, I've always stayed within support roles. I did go off and work for myself for a little bit during COVID I was, I am a trained Pilates instructor and equipalates, which is Pilates for horse riders. But that kind of dried up when people didn't have the COVID money anymore. When people work on holiday now, it's about time I got a, a proper job.

[Fellow Interviewer]

Absolutely. And it sounds like you're doing some really incredible work there. I mean that's such an important issue. The domestic abuse thing, it's so. It's such a scourge and over here as well. And, and yeah, well they.

[Ruth]

They reckon that only 50 of DA is ever reported in the UK. It's hard and there's some statistic. I can't remember exactly what it is, but it's a victim will interact with professionals like 12 times. It might be even more than that. Before they deliver report something. It's. I mean, we have Queen Camilla telling everybody that she's going to try and stamp out domestic abuse, which is a lovely idea, but it's not. It's been around since the beginning of time, hasn't it?

[Fellow Interviewer]

Is there anything I didn't ask you about, Ruth, that you wanted to mention or you think would be interesting for our listeners to know about that leasing in the UK or anything like that?

[Ruth]

Yeah, I think we've covered everything. I'll get off and I'll be like, damn it, why didn't I say that One thing. This is not about policing at all. This is about listening to your podcasts. I can't say because I'm so used to hearing everything in an American accent. I can't. If I say Indiana, that just sounds weird. Indiana, that just sounds Indiana. I can't say it. Can't say it without American accent. Delphi, Indiana.

[Fellow Interviewer]

I love it. It is a very American sounding thing. But I think kind of we're getting there with some of those events. I'm not going to try to do a British accent because I just feel like everyone who listens, we have a. We have an audience in the uk, they'll just all collectively hit the off if I do that.

[Ruth]

Oh, God, no. Yeah. I'm so used to hearing an American accent. And like you guys say, this is. Again, it's got nothing to do with policing. It's just from listening to your podcast, you guys say, I'm curious a lot, which is something that we. No, it's not. No, it's not an insult at all. It's something we would never say. And I've started to say it. I'm like, whoa, Anya's in my head.

[Fellow Interviewer]

I am so sorry. And I will say, I don't think that's an Americanism. That may be an onionism, because I.

[Ruth]

Think it is an Americanism, because you're not the only podcast. Alice, Brett and Alice. Hi, Brett and Alice. Love you. They can't see me. They say it as well. So I think it is an Americanism.

[Fellow Interviewer]

I, when I, when I'm interviewing, I think there's a. There's a part of me that wants to really, like, make the other person as comfortable as possible. So I Think. Say things like, I'm curious or like, oh, like I was wondering. Or like you kind of soften it.

[Ruth]

We would just say, why? Why did you do that? Or what was your thinking behind that? I guess we can be quite blunt. British are very polite, but we can also be very blunt. Yeah, I think there's.

[Fellow Interviewer]

The American politeness can look different than the British politeness.

[Ruth]

Yeah. I've ever been to the UK out of interest.

[Fellow Interviewer]

Oh, yes, I've. Well, technically, I've been to Northern Ireland. I've never been to England or Wales or Scotland. Would love to visit at some point. I mean, especially, you know, be the tourists in London and all that sort of thing.

[Ruth]

Yes, you and the rest of the world.

[Fellow Interviewer]

Yeah. No, I mean, it's really cool. And I, you know, never, Never, never have actually been there, aside from we went to Derry.

[Ruth]

I heard you're talking about your medieval history as well. Is it you like a bit of British history?

[Fellow Interviewer]

Oh, I was upset. I would say early modern English history was my huge obsession and, like, obsessed with the Jesuits mission to England and, like, hiding and all the spy and subterfuge and. Yeah, all of that stuff really, you know, that kind of very interesting time and, you know, I love all that stuff. I just think I would really like to go to the Tower of London and things like that. That's just so cool.

[Ruth]

Yeah, we're just so used to, like, everything over here is really old. We're just so used to it.

[Fellow Interviewer]

Yeah. No, and that's cool. And like, that's the thing with Europe. Like, every. You know, it's new. If it's from the 1700s here, it's like, that's really old. And like, I definitely. I love the history of all of that. I think that's really cool.

[Ruth]

That's just reminded me. Interesting fact. I don't know the full story, but the pilgrims that came to America, some of them, I mean, there's Boston, I know Boston in Lincolnshire down the way from me, is involved. But there's a lot of pilgrim history in Immingham, which is part of our area that we police. And I believe some of the pilgrims did come from Immingham. Oh, that's awesome. We might be related.

[Fellow Interviewer]

We might be. Exactly. Well, my people all came over much later from Ireland. Like, much later. Like, so, I mean, we. I'm not a Mayflower person, but I love the pilgrim stuff. And my, My. My obsession is Jamestown, and those settlers came from all over England. They were. They were coming. Like, they were just coming. Um, it was A big diverse group of. And actually a lot of attorneys, a lot of people who studied at like the inns and like all that stuff. So it was a very lawyer heavy group for some reason.

[Ruth]

When you said Mayflower, the pub in Immingham is called the Mayflower. Something to do with the Pilgrims. There's Pilgrim Way, there's a Pilgrim Hospital. There's a Pilgrim Hospital in Boston.

[Fellow Interviewer]

It is such a fascinating history and I love that kind of early American history where it's like the, I don't know, the kind of connection between our two countries is interesting, but also just the legal connection, I mean really like our system of laws was inherited from yours. I'm curious, have you ever been to the US at all?

[Ruth]

I've been to New York. I really, really want to travel across America. But he's just so big and I wouldn't know where to start.

[Fellow Interviewer]

Ruth, thank you so much for coming on. Really appreciate it.

[Ruth]

Thank you. It's been good. I was really nervous, as you know. Yeah, I just think sometimes who wants to hear my story? But to me it's my story and I know it well. But to other people, hopefully you find it interesting.

[Fellow Interviewer]

You did a great job telling it and I think this kind of gives people more context on the differences in law and policing.

[Anya Cain]

We want to thank Ruth for coming on the show and we really appreciate her taking the time to talk to us about her experience.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Thanks so much for listening to the Murder Sheet. If you have a tip concerning one of the cases we cover, please email [e-mail]. if you have actionable information about an unsolved crime, please report it to the appropriate authorities.

[Anya Cain]

If you're interested in joining our Patreon, that's available at www.patreon.com murdersheet if you want to tip us a bit of money for records requests, you can do so at www. Buymeacoffee.com murdersheet. We very much appreciate any support.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Special thanks to Kevin Tyler Greenlee, who composed the music for the Murder sheet and who you can find on the [e-mail] if you're looking to talk with.

[Anya Cain]

Other listeners about a case we've covered, you can join the Murder Sheet discussion group on Facebook. We mostly focus our time on research and reporting, so we're not on social media much. We do try to check our email account, but we ask for patience as we often receive a lot of messages. Thanks again for listening.

[Herobread Representative]

Holidays bring feasting, fluffy dinner rolls, tasty stuffing and your family's French Toast bakes with Herobread. Indulge in your holiday favorites made with Herobread, sliced bread, loaves, bagels, croissants, buttermilk, biscuits and more. And don't forget their Hero Hawaiian rolls. With 4 grams of protein and 0 grams net carbs, HeroBread has you covered with 0 to 5 grams net carb and high fiber options so your holidays stay delicious and balanced. Like their 3 grams net carb pain au chocolat. Herobread is offering 10% off your order. Go to Hero Co and use code fall25 at checkout. That's fall25 at HERO CO. All figures are per serving of Herobread contains up to 17 grams of fat per serving. See the product Nutrition pan on Hero Co for more information.