Questions and Answers to Close Out 2024

Summary

Murder Sheet Podcast: "Questions and Answers to Close Out 2024" Summary

Released on December 31, 2024

Hosts:

• Áine Cain – Journalist
• Kevin Greenlee – Attorney

---

1. Delphi Murders Case

A. Richard Allen’s Profile and Criminal History
The hosts delved into the perplexing profile of Richard Allen, the suspect in the Delphi murders. Given that Allen was in his early 50s at the time of the crimes—a deviation from the typical younger profile of most murderers—the question arose: Does he have a history of sexually motivated crimes or murders, and why commit his first crime later in life?

Notable Insights:

• Áine Cain highlighted insights from Lieutenant Jerry Holman of the Indiana State Police, mentioning the FBI's Behavioral Analysis Unit (BAU):

  “[...] the BAU came to that conclusion [Allen having no criminal history].” (03:06)

• Kevin Greenlee emphasized the importance of investigating Allen’s past in his community for any unsolved crimes that might link back to him:

  “Were there rapes or murders that took place while he lived there that were unsolved?” (05:12)

B. Investigative Errors
A significant error in the Delphi case was addressed—the misfiling of a crucial tip that could have expedited the investigation.

Key Points:

• Áine Cain identified the improperly handled tip as the biggest mistake, clarifying it wasn't the fault of the primary investigators but likely an administrative oversight during dispatch:

  “Somehow it got misfiled anyway. It seems like the error originated with dispatch...” (06:29)

C. Richard Allen’s Interaction with Authorities
The episode explored whether Allen’s decision to approach the authorities was calculated or naive.

Insights:

• Kevin Greenlee discussed the possibility of Allen seeking control over the situation, drawing parallels with the Lyon sisters case where a suspect proactively engaged with law enforcement.

  “[...] maybe you think you want to get ahead of it and offered the police... an innocent explanation for your presence there.” (08:43)

• Áine Cain concurred, suggesting that Allen's actions reflected his need for control, even though it ultimately led to his capture:

  “He must have seen the image of bridge guy come out and... allow me greater control...” (09:55)

D. Conspiracy Theories Surrounding Delphi
The podcast addressed why the Delphi case became a hotspot for conspiracy theories and amateur sleuthing.

Discussion:

• Áine Cain attributed the surge in conspiracy theories to the accessibility of case details and the rise of online true crime communities, which fostered both respectful curiosity and disruptive behavior:

  “Delphi unfortunately became the sort of prototype for the sort of do it yourself true crime sleuthing that has become rampant on the Internet.” (22:51)

• She further critiqued defense attorneys Andrew Baldwin and Bradley Rosie for popularizing unfounded theories, fueling a "forest fire" of misinformation:

  “[...] they lit the match of going with maybe... a frankly somewhat ridiculous theory...” (22:51)

2. Podcasting and Book Deal

A. Responding to Criticism About Book Deals
The hosts addressed accusations that their forthcoming book deal hinged on Allen's guilt.

Clarifications:

• Kevin Greenlee refuted this, explaining that their book deal was secured independently of the trial's outcome and was intended to document the case comprehensively regardless of the verdict:

  “You don't get a book deal based on the verdict of a trial. That's just not how the publishing world works.” (25:33)

• Áine Cain echoed this sentiment, emphasizing their commitment to presenting the truth and expressing gratitude for reader support:

  “We really hope to kind of grow from there and kind of just continue to expand.” (33:17)

B. Challenges of Writing a Book
Discussing the complexities of documenting a high-profile case, the hosts highlighted the meticulous research and narrative crafting required to produce a respectful and engaging account.

Insights:

• Áine Cain mentioned the difficulty in synthesizing multiple perspectives while maintaining coherence:

  “It's going to be difficult to like, get all that in there and make it coherent.” (27:59)

3. Starting the Podcast and Relationship Dynamics

A. How the Podcast Began
The origin story revealed that Kevin Greenlee initiated contact with Áine Cain through a shared interest in the Burger Chef murders, leading to both professional collaboration and a personal relationship.

Notable Quotes:

• Kevin Greenlee humorously recounted his intent to keep in touch by proposing the podcast:

  “If I convince her to do a podcast, I at least get to talk to her for an hour every week.” (29:19)

• Áine Cain shared their journey from professional collaboration to a romantic partnership:

  “We moved in together. And at that point, I felt comfortable possibly doing a podcast.” (30:34)

B. Navigating Conflicts Within the Podcasting Community
The hosts discussed their experiences with backlash from prominent podcasters like Ashley Flowers and the challenges of maintaining professional relationships amidst criticism.

Key Points:

• Áine Cain described the social media animosity following their critical episode on Ashley Flowers:

  “[...] some podcasters decided to just get really angry at us.” (36:37)

• They also reflected on positive relationships with podcasters who align with their values:

  “We have a lot of respect for both Nick and the captain.” (38:11)

4. Work Dynamics and Collaboration

A. Division of Labor
Áine and Kevin detailed their collaborative process, emphasizing their complementary skills and shared responsibilities in producing the podcast.

Insights:

• Áine Cain admitted to being a perfectionist in writing and research, striving for thoroughness and clarity:

  “I want to make it really good and really engaging for our audience.” (28:09)

• Kevin Greenlee highlighted their flexible roles, with both capable of handling any aspect of the podcast:

  “Both of us are capable of doing any aspect of it.” (48:19)

B. Handling Disagreements
The hosts acknowledged receiving strong disagreements on cases like Delphi but maintained a balanced approach, often shifting perspectives after thorough discussions.

Key Points:

• Áine Cain noted their ability to switch sides during disagreements, fostering a balanced viewpoint:

  “We've really balanced it out in a weird way.” (54:48)

• Kevin Greenlee appreciated Áine’s strengths in interviewing, enhancing their collaborative efforts:

  “You have a special strength in doing interviews...” (81:22)

5. Personal Lives and Interests

A. Personal Relationships
Áine and Kevin shared intimate details about their romantic relationship, highlighting how their partnership evolved from professional collaboration to love.

Notable Quotes:

• Áine Cain expressed gratitude for their meeting:

  “We wouldn't have met each other otherwise...” (75:29)

• Kevin Greenlee humorously addressed the coincidence of their shared name in the music credits:

  “So I think I thought that would be very, very funny...” (44:22)

B. Hobbies and Downtime
The hosts discussed their favorite activities outside of podcasting, including watching TV shows like Twin Peaks and engaging in board games.

Insights:

• Áine Cain emphasized a love for history, connecting it to their work in true crime:

  “I love reading about people... it just fascinates me.” (58:06)

• Kevin Greenlee shared his fondness for board games like Risk and his preference for less visually stimulating activities:

  “I enjoy eating Pez.” (82:52)

C. Future Aspirations
They touched upon potential future projects, including covering upcoming trials and expanding their podcast and book endeavors.

---

6. Conclusion and Gratitude

Wrapping up the Q&A session, Áine and Kevin expressed heartfelt thanks to their listeners for their unwavering support, emphasizing the importance of the audience in driving the success of Murder Sheet. They also touched upon plans for 2025, including book releases and potential new case coverages.

Final Remarks:

• Áine Cain conveyed deep appreciation:

  “We just want to thank you. I just want to express immense gratitude.” (89:06)

• Kevin Greenlee reiterated their dedication to delivering thorough and respectful true crime reporting:

  “We would not be here if it wasn't for you listening.” (34:26)

---

Notable Quotes:

• Áine Cain:

  “Probably can't get to everyone who submitted... I hate leaving people out.” (01:13)

• Kevin Greenlee:

  “There's a lot of great stories... It's all there for you.” (58:16)

• Áine Cain:

  “I feel like we couldn't trust any of these people. They are snakes.” (43:39)

---

For more detailed insights and updates, listeners are encouraged to visit the Murder Sheet Facebook group, join their Patreon, or support them through Buy Me a Coffee.

Transcript

[Kevin Greenlee]

Audible's best of 2024 picks are here. Discover the year's top audiobooks, podcasts and originals in all your favorite genres, from memoirs and sci fi to mysteries and thrillers. Audible's curated list in every category is the best way to hear 2024's best in audio entertainment, like a stunning new full cast production of George Orwell's 1984 heartfelt memoirs like Supreme Court Justice Ketanji Brown Jackson's lovely one. The year's best fiction, like the Women by Kristin Hannah and Percival Everett's brilliantly subversive James Audible. There's more to imagine when you listen. Go to audible.com imagine and discover all the year's best waiting for you. Content Warning this episode includes discussion of the murder of two children and knowing Anya, it will likely also include some profanity.

[Anya Cain]

Wow. Calling me out so last year to close out 2023, we took a bunch of questions from our audience because if.

[Kevin Greenlee]

There'S one thing we've learned that people who listen to this podcast, they have a lot of questions about what's going on.

[Anya Cain]

You all are an inquisitive bunch and we're happy. As are we. So we relate and we want to try to answer as many questions as possible. Probably can't get to everyone who submitted. Thank you to everyone who submitted and we'll if you didn't get your question answer, probably be prepared for an email back from me or a response to your comment, because I hate leaving people out. But that's just me. We're going to go through these. I think they're kind of in several categories. I'd say the Delphi murders case is one podcasting in general, just general true crime and then some personal questions. So things might get a little off the rails at the end here. I'm excited.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Let's get started. Push the button.

[Anya Cain]

Yeah. My name is Anya Cain. I'm a journalist.

[Kevin Greenlee]

And I'm Kevin Greenlee. I'm an attorney.

[Anya Cain]

And this is the Murder Sheet.

[Kevin Greenlee]

We're a true crime podcast focused on original reporting, interviews, and deep dives into murder cases. We're the Murder Sheet and this is.

[Anya Cain]

Questions and Answers to close out 2020 SA.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Let's start with some deli questions.

[Anya Cain]

Absolutely. So this is a question we've gotten several versions of. I'll try to boil it down as best I can, but this was from several people. We've heard it from people in real life, too. They want to know about this. People want to know when we're talking about Richard Allen, a man in his early 50s. That's not exactly the age you'd expect someone to commit their first crime of this magnitude, of the double homicide of two children. People want to know, do we think he has a history of sexually motivated crimes or murders? Has he killed other people? Why would he commit his first crime at such an older age? When you look at the statistics, the typical profile of a murderer is a young man. You know, when people are younger, their brains and their life experiences, it's just. It makes them more likely to lash out in violence, especially for men. And so an older guy, not quite what you'd expect. So one thing I found very interesting about this is when we talked to Lieutenant Jerry Holman of the Indiana State Police, he told us something interesting. He said that the FBI's Behavioral Analysis Unit felt that in their profile, the killer of Libyan Abbey could have been someone who had no criminal history. So obviously the BAU came to that conclusion. They must be aware of. Like that can happen sometimes where someone has either not been caught or has not committed a serious crime before. In my mind, I'd want to see the numbers about how unlikely it is to commit murder in older age. I don't feel comfortable being like, oh, I can't believe that could happen because what are the numbers? I, I just don't know. I, I don't know. I would want to look at more statistically. I know statistically it tends to point towards younger, but I don't feel like I could say this is totally beyond the realm of possibility. I could understand, like I could conceptualize a situation where an older person has always harbored fantasies about committing sexual assault, rape, murder, and eventually maybe due to life stressors, acts upon that a little bit later in life. I don't think that to me sounds so wild. What do you think?

[Kevin Greenlee]

Certainly if I was a member of law enforcement in a community where Richard Allen once lived, I would, I would be interested in taking a look. Were there rapes or murders that took place while he lived there that were unsolved? I would, I would be curious to take a look at that.

[Anya Cain]

I think that's well said and I think that's something that, that should be looked at. And I would also just add to that when we look at how he committed this crime, he, he, he had the goal, he had the intent on raping these two beautiful girls, and he did not achieve that. So he seems like someone who did not really kind of. It did not actualize for him in the way that he fantasized about. So that to me, when you look at people who are serial killers, they often sort of get closer and closer to their ideal fantasy as they go on and gain more experience. And I would think, like an experienced killer, serial killer would have potentially had more control of this situation. So that's something that also points to me that this may have been his first time doing it.

[Kevin Greenlee]

I think that's a great point. Anya, here's another question we received. What, in your mind was the single biggest error made by investigators in the Delphi case?

[Anya Cain]

That's very easy. In my mind. I believe that the tip that was incorrectly marked as not needing further follow ups was the biggest mistake. But here's the thing. I don't think that was the fault of investigators. I don't think that was the fault of Unified Command, which, of course, is the core group of people who are working on this case. I don't think it's the fault of Dan Doolin, the Department of Natural Resources officer who investigated Allen. He actually, in his paperwork, filed, hey, guys, we got the name wrong. It's actually Richard Allen, not Richard Allen Whiteman. Correct this. And he also filed it under needs more investigation. So he did the right thing. Somehow. I'd like to get more clarity on this, but somehow it got misfiled anyway. It seems like the error originated with dispatch when they were initially taking Allen's information. Somehow that ended up, you know, basically causing this thing to get buried. And like, to me, someone like Jerry Holman or Tony Liggett, they're not responsible for that happening. I mean, it's not their mess up. It's like one unfortunate error. And when you think about it, like, if this had happened with almost any, like, any other tip, it wouldn't have mattered. You know, if it happened with some person calling in like, I'm a psychic, like, it would have been like, whatever, who cares? It just happened to be the one crucial piece that then required Kathy Shank. All those years later. She's a hero for doing this, for. For volunteering and then finding it. But I think that is the biggest mistake. I just don't know if it really is the fault of the investigators. It's not something that I think is like a. A collective blame thing. It's just really unfortunate. And maybe if there's a lesson to take from this is that if there's a lot of agencies and people involved, it can be easy for stuff like this to happen. So maybe in the future, massive investigations can kind of keep that in mind and, like, try to create fail safes. I guess. Is that fair to say?

[Kevin Greenlee]

That's fair to say.

[Anya Cain]

Another question people wanted to know. What do we think about Richard Allen proactively reaching out to the authorities to put himself on the bridge, at the bridge at the same time of the girls. Was he being calculated or clueless?

[Kevin Greenlee]

I think there's a couple of possibilities here. Correct me if I'm wrong. Wasn't it intimated at the trial that one of the reasons he reached out was because his wife urged him to?

[Anya Cain]

Right. So his wife is saying, hey, honey, you told me you were at the trails that day. Maybe you should go in. It would look really weird if he didn't.

[Kevin Greenlee]

So there's that. Maybe there's a little bit of pressure from his wife to do that. And there's also an aspect. I remember the case of the Lyon sisters in Maryland, where the person who was ultimately convicted of the kidnapping and murder of those girls, he actually went to police early on and said, oh, I was there the time of the kidnapping. I may have seen some things. He presented himself as a witness. There was something very calculated about that. Because if in the back of your mind, you wonder, did someone see me there? Are the police going to figure out I was in the vicinity at the time? Then maybe you think you want to get ahead of it and offered the police and law enforcement an innocent explanation for your presence there.

[Anya Cain]

Yeah. And we've heard from investigators that they feel that Richard Allen is about control. He's about controlling his victims in this case. And so that's a measure of control. You know, it's scary where he must have seen the image of bridge guy come out and like, my gosh, they're gonna figure it out. Let me control this situation and my wife and her questions by coming forward and taking that risk. But the risk can allow me greater control and to explain this away. Then it's worth doing. I think that that fits. It's a bit clueless because ultimately, in the end, him coming forward is what led to his downfall. But I could see it in the moment being a calculated risk. That would make sense, right?

[Kevin Greenlee]

Anya, what did you do with your dog Lanny?

[Anya Cain]

During this trial, Lanolin Q. Smith enjoyed her time at her fancy little doggy hotel. The thing about Lanolin is she loves to meet new people. That's her favorite thing in the world. There's a show from Canada that Kevin and I enjoy occasionally called the Littlest Hobo Word.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Enjoy is a little strong.

[Anya Cain]

We are delighted by it.

[Kevin Greenlee]

And we're delighted.

[Anya Cain]

Oh, you love it. It's about a German shepherd that goes from. It's like the fugitive with a dog. A German shepherd goes from town to town, meeting new people, having new adventures. That is Lanolin's ideal life.

[Kevin Greenlee]

She does dog, though. Has not been accused of a crime.

[Anya Cain]

That'd be funny if it asked.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Fugitive with a dog. You're giving people the wrong idea about this program.

[Anya Cain]

It's literally. It's the same things are supposed to.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Stay on the rails until the end.

[Anya Cain]

Oh, my God. But that's Lanolin's life. That's what her. What she wants. She doesn't seem to realize that that would probably lead to her getting hit by a car and killed. But she's. She had a. She, I think had a better time than us. We were really stressed about it because we missed her a lot. And she came back and she was just happy and doing her best, doing her thing. So we were like, okay, that's a little offensive, but okay.

[Kevin Greenlee]

The odd thing is her secret origin is I was told that she was found wandering in some sort of field outside of Lafayette, Indiana, which is not too far from Delphi.

[Anya Cain]

Isn't that wild? Don't you expect at one point we'll go up to the Lafayette State police post and there'll be like flyers of people wanted for bank robbery and she'll be one of them somehow. Just like a. Like a picture of a brindle pit bull looking dog.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Anya. That seems very unlikely, but it would be funny.

[Anya Cain]

We leave in a hurry. She's a. She's a. She's a character. She's a very silly beast. She's actually. She's not looking at us. She's just kind of hovering in our office right now. So I don't know, maybe I shouldn't talk too much about her. But she's a very sweet dog. If you ever see us walking her around, then come say hi. She loves to meet people.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Here's another question. We actually got several questions about this, as we probably complained about incessantly during the trial coverage and maybe a little bit during the sentencing coverage. In order to get into court, you would have to stand in line, often for hour upon hour upon hour or even potentially days. People are very. What was it like in lines? Was it bad? Did you feel unsettled or unsafe? Anya once into a memorable scuffle in the line.

[Anya Cain]

I will say that lady did apologize to me afterwards. So I do appreciate that. But, yeah, that somehow turned. This is how the rumor mill worked. Somehow that got back to other people in the courthouse and People kept asking me, like, were you in a fight? And it's like, that's a little bit extreme given what happened. But it was bad. But it was also good. I know that's a stupid answer, but, like, to me there was something really, like, weirdly dehumanizing about the process where we're all like, out in the cold and like, kind of like, what are we doing? Like, I, I would ask myself, what am I doing here? Like, a lot. And I felt really frustrated by it because I was like, we are media. Let us in. You know. But it ultimately you got used to. You get used to anything. It became a lot better once we started getting lifesavers or line sitters. God bless you to all those people who volunteered and who did it, because that prevented us from being so sleep deprived and allowed us to get in a lot more. But it was very cold and miserable. The, the bright side was we did talk to a lot of interesting people. Some people we knew and got to know better. Some people we didn't know and got to meet, you know. So, like, even though it was frustrating and on some level you do feel competitive with the other people, like, if they get in and I don't, I'm going to be mad. You'd be like, you get to know them and you're like, oh, they're actually pretty nice. So, I mean, that was a nice thing about it. Um, did we have someone physically sitting there non stop? No, not, not always. But, but mostly. Mostly. Did anyone try to cut in line?

[Kevin Greenlee]

Yes, Someone cut in line with the sentencing?

[Anya Cain]

Yeah, there was a line cutting at the sentencing, which I think people were mad about. And then there was a, the, the people that. It would always be weird because it's like you're on this ramp and you're like, okay, I'm 12, Kevin's 13, Susan Hendricks is 14. We should get in today. Like, the amount of counting I did, like, I, like, I mean, I was losing my mind. I'd be counting people constantly. I'd like be like, okay, what number are you? Seven. All right. Like, I'm just like confronting people on their numbers. It was insane. And. But then especially once the defense started putting on their case, there were a lot of like, pro. Rabidly pro defense people who came in, and they were mostly a lot more uncouth, frankly. Just, just. No, I'm not even. Generally speaking, they were. And somehow we'd go from being like 14 to being 17 in line and it would be like, okay, well, suddenly people seem to have gotten A lot of new friends up at the top of the line there. So that's interesting. And like, you know, it's like you can be the line cops or you cannot. It's like sometimes it's just not even worth it. But people would yell at each other and, and, and yeah. And then as far as an us against them feeling based on where we stood on guilt versus Innocence, not at first. At first I felt it was very kumbaya. In the first, you know, couple of days and weeks during until the defense started presenting their case, things were actually pretty chill based and people of all kinds of opinions were like getting along. It was like utopia. And then there was this influx of kind of people coming in who I feel like were very adamant that only defense people get in essentially, or that was the big priority for them, even if it meant basically trying to crowd everyone else out. And the mood shifted, that shifted.

[Kevin Greenlee]

At that point it seemed a lot more unpleasant. When we're talking about an us versus them thing, I think it's worth noting, and I'm not going to name any names, but I do think it is worth noting that we would be in line with people who were very rapidly pro defense and who would go on their YouTube channels and say very rabidly pro defense things. And the defense are like gods who walk among us. The second coming of Clarence Darrow. They're flawed. Not only are they lawyers, but they're excellent lawyers because just calling someone a lawyer is high praise indeed, obviously. So they would say often things that I would characterize as extreme, embarrassing, and sure. But then when we were in line with them and they would talk to us, it would be like talking to a normal person who would recognize that there were flaws in the defense's presentation and flaws in how they were handling things. So it felt as if some of these people were very much playing to a crowd and perhaps playing a character when they were on a show on one of their channels, as opposed to how they were in what you referred to as real life.

[Anya Cain]

I completely agree. Which was honestly almost worse. Because if you just kind of nuts, then that's one thing. But if you're like just kind of lying to your audience because that's what you think they want, it's like, what are you doing? What's the point of that? And like, maybe you'd be better just being yourself and kind of getting the truth out there or just kind of like, you know, with opinions. The thing is, like, it's, it's never really been like people who have not been convinced of his guilt versus people who have been convinced of his guilt. It's really always been like, there is a. There's everyone else who's normal, and then there is a small, very loud minority of people who are just kind of like, worship this defense team and worship Richard Allen. I don't know how else to describe it. It's very cult like. And, you know, they go after people who believe that the state didn't prove its case. They go after people who were very concerned about Richard Allen's rights. But if. If those people are not seen as sufficiently rabid, they're not welcome and they are attacked as well. So I don't see it as like an us versus them thing. It's more of just like there's. There are troublemakers and people who are just acting wild and then everybody else. And I will just say, like, one thing I was disgusted by is, like, the patties would bring in food to people all the time. They're just lovely. They're just like, wonderful people. And they'd be like, feeding people who have, like, gone online and attacked them incessantly. And I just think that says so much about the patties. I think that says so much about how kind and compassionate they are to people who've been horrible to them. And I also think, like, if you're sitting there taking, you know, banana bread from someone you've been spending years stalking and trashing, then maybe rethink your life and, like, rethink if you're a good person, because, like, I don't know how you could do that and not feel a wave of shame.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Yeah. If you're accepting bread and treats from people who you've abused.

[Anya Cain]

Yeah.

[Kevin Greenlee]

We got a lot of questions, so I want to move on. Anya, do you think if Odinism had got in, we would have had a hung jury?

[Anya Cain]

I think it would have been a conviction in 15 minutes. No, I think the conviction would have come in faster. I don't think it would have been a hung jury.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Yeah, I think one reason to keep Odinism out was basically to protect the rights of the people who would have been falsely accused of murder had it been included.

[Anya Cain]

And I also think that it was a stupid theory that was poorly put on. And I think that this jury did not give any indications that there were any cranks within the 12. I think they gave indications that they were paying attention, following the logic, and guess what? Odinism would not have held up to that. So I really think the conviction would have been faster. That's just My opinion.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Anya, do you think Richard Allen could appeal his conviction based on ineffective assistance of counsel?

[Anya Cain]

I think our friends at the prosecutor's podcast, Brett and Alice, covered this in more depth. So I would definitely check out their show. They're awesome in general, but I would say they talked about this and they noted that it is really difficult to get to the place of ineffective assistance of counsel.

[Kevin Greenlee]

And it would be even more difficult in this case because at one point, Judge Gull told Richard Allen, these guys are not good at what they're doing. They're ill serving you. I'm kicking them off the case. And knowing that the judge thought that they were ineffective and not good at their jobs, Richard Allen fought to keep them on the case. And so it is hard to. It would be very hard for him to make an argument that these people were ineffective because he was warned at, at the sentencing.

[Anya Cain]

He said, I believe they were affected. Like he, he, he, he answered a question from Gull saying, I'm happy with their performance. It would be very difficult. And again, you pretty much. I'm not, I'm. I'm kind of boiling it down, but you kind of have to show up, like, drunk and high for, you know, like, for that, like you. It has to be a very extreme example for it to be ineffective. It can't just be like, I feel like they were ineffective from the, from the standpoint of truth and logic and fairness, but it's a whole nother ballpark when you're talking about that. So, no, I don't think they were ineffective in that sense.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Now the question, do we think more people were involved in the Delphi murders? This is something that was addressed, if I recall correctly, in the post sentencing press conference. And what it boils down to is that at least at this point, there is no evidence of anyone else being involved. At least there's no evidence good enough to warrant other charges. And so until such time as such evidence is shown to exist, basically, yeah. Just not enough evidence.

[Anya Cain]

Yeah, I would say that too. I'm open to anything, but I'm also open to him being, being alone. And I'm, you know, it just. But what matters is what the evidence says. And I mean, I think the closest thing we had was, was Kegan Klein. A lot of interesting smoke there, but I very much understand why he has not been charged. And I don't, I don't know if they could get enough to charge him.

[Kevin Greenlee]

I love that phrase, interesting smoke.

[Anya Cain]

A lot of fascinating smoke. Anya. Oh.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Oh, Anya. Oh.

[Anya Cain]

You're asking the Questions.

[Kevin Greenlee]

This is a question that I think is made for Anya to answer. Anya, why do you think Delphi became such a magnet for conspiracy theories and bad faith actors who are covering the case?

[Anya Cain]

Delphi unfortunately became the sort of prototype for the sort of do it yourself true crime sleuthing that has become rampant on the Internet. It was a case where there was a follow along at home quality because, hey, the victims captured the image of the killer on their phone and his voice. So if we look hard enough and we listen hard enough, maybe we'll figure it out. In reality, what would have needed to happen is someone who knew Richard Allen would have had to come forward and that did not happen. But, but people felt like we have enough clues to maybe make it work. So they're out there trying to figure it out. Then it goes unsolved for a period of time where it allowed enough, you know, like we're not hearing anything concrete. So maybe it's this guy. And you had people almost form camps where it's like, this is my person of interest, this is my person of interest. I don't like you. Let's fight on Reddit. And then you had that, you had a number of different suspects come up that kind of would warrant discussion. And again, a lot of the people doing that discussion were fine. They weren't being disrespectful, they weren't being harassing. They were just curious and they wanted to know. So I'm not, I'm not painting everyone in that camp with a broad brush. Some people were behaving totally fine in ways that I think are commendable and they were just interested in the case. Others were being jerks and then add to that. So that's the kind of like gasoline spill. The defense attorneys who came onto this, Andrew Baldwin and Bradley Rosie, the original two, lit the match of going with maybe what could be generously called like a frankly somewhat ridiculous theory that kind of catered to some of the people who'd gotten really invested. I mean, there was like a cult of people who really wanted it to be Ron Logan. They ended up being the people who I think largely carried the Odinism torch, which was funny because it wasn't what they originally wanted, but they kind of ditched Logan and kind of picked it up from there. So I, I think you combination of like, it's almost like a forest fire. You have the kind of very dry conditions and then you have a spark from like a downed power outlet. And, and that's, that's kind of what ended up happening in this case. And unfortunately, I think now we're seeing like Idaho, the Idaho murders. That was not unsolved for very long, but similar things have happened because it's like everything is faster and faster and faster because of social media now. So while Delphi took a while to build up, this is just, I think, what it's going to be like for most high profile true crime cases going forward. And that should scare everybody, fills you with terror. It's not good.

[Kevin Greenlee]

I want to take this next question, so ask away.

[Anya Cain]

All right. Could you respond to the criticism about how you would only have a book deal if Richard Allen was found guilty? Also, I should note Shadow of the Bridge will be out in August 2025.

[Kevin Greenlee]

You can, that's the name of our book.

[Anya Cain]

You can pre order it on Amazon and I believe other places, so check that out. Pre orders really help us.

[Kevin Greenlee]

So, yes, I think a lot of the times people jump to conclusions about things they don't understand and it just causes confusion. And this confusion is started by bad faith actors who don't understand how the world works. And so I just want to say very clearly, you don't get a book deal based on the verdict of a trial. That's just not how the publishing world works. I can tell you. Also, we made the deal. We weren't allowed to talk about it for close to a year. I think the deal was made even before the photos were leaked.

[Anya Cain]

That's true, yeah.

[Kevin Greenlee]

And there's nothing in the contract that says, oh, this book is only allowed to be published if there is a guilty verdict. The publishers care about this case. They want the story to be told. They're not as invested though, in the day to day as we all are. They just want, here is the story of what happened. Here is who Abby and Libby were. Here's what the families went through. Here's what happened with the media. At no time has our agent or our publisher or anyone said anything to suggest that the deal was contingent on a particular verdict. The only thing that Anya and I did say, we don't want the book to come out until after there is a verdict. We didn't say that verdict had to be guilty or innocent. And furthermore, if he was found guilty, I believe he was guilty. That's an interesting story. If it had gone the other way and he was acquitted, that would also be an interesting story. So I think you'd have a very interesting either way in it.

[Anya Cain]

You'd want to have a book that explains, here's what happened. How did this end? How did this high profile case end in an acquittal? That's remarkable.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Let's move on to the next question. Why don't we let you answer this one, Ms. Kane? What is the most challenging thing about trying to actually write a book?

[Anya Cain]

Well, I don't. This may be just a me problem. I want to make it really good. And it's.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Well, I also wanna make it good.

[Anya Cain]

I mean, but I'm very perfectionist about how it's written. So I'm making it kind of beautifully written and comprehensive. We're gonna have to talk to a lot of people also. A lot of people ask this question, are you gonna talk to this person or that person? The answer is, we're gonna try to talk to everyone. There's no one on the list where we're like, wow, we didn't think of that. Like, we're gonna try to talk to every person who we possibly can. And if you want to talk to us for the book and you have some sort of perspective, Please reach out murdersheetmail.com and to be clear, we don't.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Even have to tell people we talk to you.

[Anya Cain]

No, it doesn't. We're not going to be like. And then we sat down with. It can be private. But, you know, it's just, with a story like this, it's really important to us to loop in as many perspectives as possible. So it's just going to be difficult to like, get all that in there and make it coherent. So I think it's just about synthesizing all of this in a way that's respectful, thoughtful and vivid. So it's, it's difficult. But we, I've, you know, we, I think we're great partners with each other and we're, we're working on it pretty hard. So I'm, I'm hopeful about it at this point.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Why don't we move on to the next category? Podcast questions.

[Anya Cain]

I want to ask you this because this was your fault. The reason we're sitting here is because of you. Why did you decide to start a podcast?

[Kevin Greenlee]

I think I've confess this. Maybe we'll touch upon more of this once we get into the personal section of the proceedings. So there is the time. Anya comes out to Indiana. She lives in the great city of New York where she works for a publication called Business Insider. For some reason, she's conned them into letting her cover the burger shop murders. She comes to Indianapolis. We spend a lot of time together. And during that process, I'm thinking, well, obviously this Smart, intelligent woman who you've all come to know. She's going to go back to the bright lights of New York City, completely forget Kevin, completely forget Indiana, and I'll never talk to her again. So my scheme, my little manipulation, my Machiavellian manipulation, my little scheme is if I convince her to do a podcast, I at least get to talk to her for an hour every week.

[Anya Cain]

And I said, no. I said, no, I'm not doing a podcast with you.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Absolutely not.

[Anya Cain]

Get away from you, peasant. But when eventually I wrote my article, we were done. We kind of stayed friends after that, and then we eventually realized we were.

[Kevin Greenlee]

In love and we moved in together.

[Anya Cain]

And we moved in together. And at that point, I felt comfortable possibly doing a podcast. Although Kevin really had to convince me. I'm. I have a hard. I mean, I. I don't know, like, I'm not shy. I can be extroverted. I think if people meet me, like, I try to talk to them, but I have. I have a pretty bad anxiety and I. I kind of feel. I felt very like I didn't want to put myself out there in a podcast way. Um, you know, I mean, when we went to the Delphi press conference, we've been reporting on. On all of this for a long time, and Kevin was like, let's go talk to some of these people we've been reporting on. And, like, and I was like, oh, this is so hot. Like, I was like, I was so ne. He like, dragged me over to some people and it was fine. But, like, I just, you know, but it ended up being great and I really enjoyed it. It was, it was a lot of hard work. I ultimately get this. Like, I left my job at Insider, where I previously worked, like, in October of 2022. Like, at that point, we had no idea an arrest was coming. We had no idea. It just was. I just, I, you know, we were. It became a full time job for both of us. And so I left. A couple weeks later, Richard Allen is arrested. It was just totally surreal, but it was scary to leave that job because I really enjoyed it. I love the people I worked with, and it was a great job in many ways, but I just, I wanted to do something that wasn't retail reporting. I wanted to challenge myself and kind of have my own business. And so I'm really glad I did it. Did you think we'd be this successful?

[Kevin Greenlee]

They still use some of your content because sometimes I see they're still reposting some of your old stories. And you also wrote, well, that's called.

[Anya Cain]

They re up stories. They did that when I was there, too. It's not like they're obsessed with me. And they're like, oh, my God, these are the only good art.

[Kevin Greenlee]

It's just like, I think they're obsessed.

[Anya Cain]

No, they're not.

[Kevin Greenlee]

And also, Anya did some fine articles there. Even if you're not interested in business. She wrote a story about when she first moved to Indiana and went to the Indiana State Fair.

[Anya Cain]

That's my big scoop. My first person story about me going to a fair.

[Kevin Greenlee]

I think you were probably underused there at Business Insider.

[Anya Cain]

Don't say that. It was a great place to work, and I really appreciated getting to work with those editors and journalists. But it was time for me to shake things up in my life and kind of move. And I would say, people ask, someone asked us, did you expect to have this level of success? And no, I think we hoped to do it full time. That would have been really amazing for us, no matter what. And we're very gratified for all of you listening and supporting us to get us there.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Here's if anybody is considering doing a podcast, there's lots of great things about it. Glad to talk to you about it at some point. But you shouldn't go into it expecting to make any money at it or even expecting to get too many listeners, because it is a very crowded marketplace. Go in there with reduced realistic expectations, and then maybe you'll be pleasantly surprised.

[Anya Cain]

I think that's what saved us. We were like, we're doing this because we are passionate. And then when. When an audience came with that, we were like, we can do something with this. But we really did not go in. We didn't monetize for, like, I think, the first year or so of the program, because that was not the focus for us. We just wanted to make it really good and really engaging for our audience. And I think that helped us also.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Frankly, for a good portion of that first year, we didn't really have enough of an audience.

[Anya Cain]

No, I mean, we were much smaller then. And someone asked how. How have we changed and developed? We've loosened up a lot. If you listen to early episodes were, like, in full suit and tie with, like, very stiff and yes, sir. Yes, ma'am. And now we're a lot more like, we've loosened the tie, we've taken off the jacket, you know, of the podcast.

[Kevin Greenlee]

What happened is we would meet people in what Anya charmingly calls real life who would say, gosh, on the podcast, you seem like some Unpleasant combination of Frasier and Charles Emerson Winchester. You just seem so stuffy and unpleasant, but in real life you just seem like normal and frankly, you're much more likable. Why don't you try to be yourself on the show?

[Anya Cain]

And we were like, no one wants that for a very long time. But then I guess people did, so we've loosened up. It's, it's, you know, and then it is a full time job for both of us now. So this is all we do. This is our job. Sometimes people are surprised by that. They're like, oh, you know, do you want to talk at like, you know, 7pm because, you know, not during business hours. And it's like, this is our business. So this is all we do. And it's really fun. It's a wonderful job. It's hard work in some ways that you don't expect. But again, it's been very gratifying and we would not be here if it wasn't for you listening. So thank you from the bottom of our hearts. It's a dream to be able to do this level of legal analysis and crime reporting and kind of speak to all of you interesting people. And so we're incredibly grateful.

[Kevin Greenlee]

And the fact that we weren't money motivated or career motivated at first, at all, there's some evidence of that in this next question. What was the outcome with Ashley Flowers? If you were allowed to comment, relatively early on in the history of the.

[Anya Cain]

Program, we decided to pick a fight with the biggest true crime podcaster in the world.

[Kevin Greenlee]

We're very concerned and interested in the Burger Chef case. Ashley Flowers did some stuff connected to the Burger Chef case that we had a problem with. She also, as you may or may not know, has a had a history of some plagiarism allegations. She's also, as Anya notes, one of the biggest and most powerful place people in the podcast space. She also happens to be from Indiana, I believe. Yeah. So everybody who we told we're gonna do this episode on Ashley Flowers, they're.

[Anya Cain]

Like, don't do it, don't do it, don't do it.

[Kevin Greenlee]

And in fact, after we did this episode on Ashley Flowers that was highly critical, a lot of we got froze out from a lot of people.

[Anya Cain]

Audio Chuck sends its regards. There was actually like, literally, oh my God. We can talk more about that later. But she, I mean, this is the thing about Ashley Flowers. I do respect her business acumen and sort of things like that. I feel like she should have handled the plagiarism thing better by Apologizing to some people. But, I mean, we were kind of in the place where we're like, we're gonna say what we think, and if we tick a lot of people off. Okay. I mean, I don't. We're. I really don't like conflict, personally. It makes me really uncomfortable. I'm not good at it. But I like even less censoring myself if I believe truly in what I'm saying. And so it was kind of like.

[Kevin Greenlee]

You know, and just because we had a disagreement with Ashley Flowers over how she handled Burger Chef, that doesn't mean that's something that has to be written in stone forever. Because one incident I refer to is a lot is the captain from True Crime Garage did some stuff on Delphi that we weren't a huge fan of. And Anya wrote him a scathing email, a scathing email. And he said, let's talk. And we had a long conversation.

[Anya Cain]

And I feel like I got to know him. I feel like I got to understand the level of compassion he has and the level of interest he has in some of these cases. And it was like, wow, I. I was upset, and, like, we might still have a disagreement, but I'm like, that's really awesome. And he's an awesome person.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Yes. So we have a lot of respect for both Nick and the captain.

[Anya Cain]

I don't think we're going to bury the hatchet with Ashley. I mean, like, we would, but, like, after she. After we did this, there was actually. And this kind of gets into the next question a little bit. There was. We kind of got, like, dog piled a bit on social media over our coverage of Delphi. A lot of people within podcasting decided to just get really angry at us about, you know, reporting on, you know, stuff. And. And so basically, she. She was a part of that. I always kind of wondered, like, you know, she kind of, like, had a tweet ready to go with that. So I always found that somewhat interesting and kind of was like, interesting. Is that the kind of long arm of Audio Chuck sort of coming back to haunt us? And what's amusing about that is her whole stance was like, this doesn't help the case, and it doesn't help the families of the victims. And what's amusing is, in recent times, she came out with her own Delphi hot take, which was basically like, was Richard Allen framed? Or, like, did Richard Allen get a fair trial? I think that was it. And so it's like. I think it's funny. I don't know. Like, I wonder if she want. I wonder if she considers. Does that help the families in this case, given all that's gone on. So I don't know, but maybe she should do some more research on it, I guess would be my recommendation.

[Kevin Greenlee]

But I do have a lot of respect for her as a business.

[Anya Cain]

Yeah, as a businesswoman, she's incredible. I mean, she's built up a huge thing. I mean, that's impressive. I think she's very smart. I just. I think something she did early on, I mean, I would be one of those people where if she was just like, yeah, I kind of mess it up. I'm sorry. Like, that would be good enough, I think, for anybody. She's not a journalist. She's not. She doesn't have that background. So I think it's messed up to plagiarize, but I also can see how people don't have that background would make some of those mistakes. I just think you have to own up to it. I think it's more important to deal with a mistake rather than, like, to do everything perfectly, if that makes sense.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Have there ever been times when or both of you have considered quitting podcasting? I'll let Anya in a second. But first, every week early on, I think we've alluded to the fact we didn't have much of an audience and we weren't getting a lot of feedback from that audience. So imagine if every week you spent a lot of time preparing a really big fancy meal for someone and then you pack it and you climb up to the top of Niagara Falls and you just throw it into the water and watch it disappear, and then you never hear from it again. And then you go back down to your house and then you do it again and make another big meal to do that the next week. That is what podcasting can feel like when you are not lucky enough to have the kind of great, responsive audience we now have. You're working very hard to create things and to try to communicate things, and you are putting it out into the world and you are not getting a response, and that can be frustrating. And so certainly many times early on, there were times when one or both of us seriously considered, is this really worth it? And I can remember conversations we had. I remember at one point we said, if. If we don't feel more fulfilled by this in, like, the next six months, let's just not do it anymore.

[Anya Cain]

Yeah, I remember that. I think also that when I alluded to us kind of getting dogpiled on social media over Delphi, that was something that was upsetting. More so because of the social aspect of, like, feeling ostracized. There were a lot of podcasters who, up until then, we'd been very friendly with. We'd gone on their shows, they'd gone on ours, or we had had, you know, behind the scenes relationships with and talked to in the past. And a lot of them just kind of believed, like, the worst, like, like, things about us without really getting any perspective from us or, like, getting our side of the story, and they just sort of dunked on us. I vividly remember, like, on Twitter, there was this guy who I had talked to in real life who has a podcast, and he was. It wasn't even just like, they. I mean, what was nuts about it? It wasn't just like, murder sheet messed up. It was like he was going around and liking these bizarre tweets about how I was an alcoholic, and that was like, I'd messed up cases before. It was like, first of all, not based in reality. It was just, like, spread by people who hate us. But it was also like, why are you, like, obsessively liking this stuff? This is just like.

[Kevin Greenlee]

And we hadn't messed up.

[Anya Cain]

We hadn't done it. We were just reporting. Like, it was. It was like. It was. It was really. It was disturbing. And it was like. It just felt, like, very sudden because it was like, we think we're getting along with all these people, we're kind of growing, and we're kind of the newcomers in this space, and then suddenly that's flipped and. And they all turn on us. Without I. I add, they're not saying, like, hey, what did you guys do? Tell us about that. And then making a decision, like, if at least if they'd given us that chance and turned against us, I'd be like, well, they gave us a shot, but it all just felt very fickle and clicky in high school. And I'm really gratified now because we, at that point, we were like, we're never gonna be friends with anyone in true crime podcasting ever again, because we cannot trust any of these people. They are snakes. But that is. We've kind of come off that we really appreciate the community we found with other podcasters who we feel more share our values and understand where we're coming from, and we understand where they're coming from. So we've made some of those authentic connections with people that we love.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Gretna, Alice, we love Nick and the captain, Jason. We love Jason Blair.

[Anya Cain]

Yes. And so there's a lot of people like that in that space who I'm just like, I adore. And again, I feel like they share our values or they at least share that understanding of what we're all trying to achieve here. But there are a lot of people, I think, in true crime, where it's a lot of petty jealousies, it's a lot of nonsense, and it's a lot of people basically like. And you see this with cases, if everyone starts saying, I think this guy's innocent, then it's like lemmings off a cliff. And that also, that goes with everything. And so like, when I just don't, I don't like two faced people. I don't like that at all. So that was just upsetting. And it made me kind of like, why do I want to be part of this community where people are like this? But, I mean, we got over it.

[Kevin Greenlee]

So moving on, what is Kevin's relationship to Kevin Tyler Greenlee? If you listen to the end of the program.

[Anya Cain]

No, I'm just kidding.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Don't say that. If you listen to the end of the program, we say the music for the program is done by Kevin Tyler Greenlee. So at one point, when I'm a kid, I see a cartoon. I barely remember it, but a character. Maybe it was Bugs Bunny, maybe it was Daffy Duck. Who knows? At this late date, I've tried to find it since and I can't. But this character makes a movie. And usually during the opening credits, the names and the titles change, but in this case, in this character's film, the only thing that changed was the title. So it would say, in other words, this movie, directed by Bugs Bunny, starring Bugs Bunny, written by Bugs Bunny, produced by Bugs Bunny. And I thought, oh, that's pretty funny. And so when Anya and I were putting the podcast together, I said, wouldn't it be funny if we replicated that? Wouldn't that be just hilarious if we found somebody with the same name as me to perform another function on the show? And Kevin Greenlee is a relatively common name. And so sometimes I get emails for other Kevin Greenlees? And so I in the past had gotten emails for a Kevin Greenlee who was a composer of music. And I said, anya, wouldn't it just be hilarious if we commissioned a theme for the murder sheet from Kevin, this other Kevin Greenlee? And it would just be like, everything is done by Kevin Greenlee because you.

[Anya Cain]

Want to crowd me out of credit for my own show.

[Kevin Greenlee]

So I think I thought that would be very, very funny. And what it's done. I don't think anyone has laughed at it. I don't think anyone has chuckled. Ruefully said, oh, Kevin, what a wry commentary on the male ego or whatever. People just say, what is this? Kevin and Anya's son? Is this Kevin's brother?

[Anya Cain]

My favorite thing is the brother thing. So there's two Kevin Greenle in the same household. Like his brother's also named Kevin. And then some people say, well, then they could go by their middle names, which. Yes, but like, what?

[Kevin Greenlee]

Didn't George Foreman do that?

[Anya Cain]

George Foreman did that. So you're in a George Foreman family. My, the son thing is funny. They're like, then some people, like, I think he's a son from a previous marriage. Like, he's an older son. And my favorite thing is when we have haters, sometimes they'll send us hate mail like, oh, you stink and I hate you and you're bad. And you know, your son's music sucks. He's not our son. Also, his music is awesome and you should check it out.

[Kevin Greenlee]

We have never actually met him. He's no relation to us.

[Anya Cain]

Professional, nice man who I think did a great job. That's, that's, that's all he is to us. We, we, we appreciate him. We think he's great, but we are not related to him.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Very reasonable rates reach out to him. And he did like a first draft that we thought, well, this doesn't feel quite right. So he did a second draft. But then the first draft was so good that became the theme of our sister project.

[Anya Cain]

Yeah. Mystery to me. And then, and we did some and we, yeah, he's, he's wonderful to work with, so we'd really strongly recommend him. But he is not our son. Yep. He's not the Nepo baby of true crime. He's just a hard working man.

[Kevin Greenlee]

And we really haven't had much to do with him, communicate with him since the podcast started. A couple of times a year, I do end up sending an email to him that I've gotten by accident.

[Anya Cain]

Some people will listen to this and half listen to it and be like, oh my God. They're estranged from their son. So tell us about your work style, Kevin, and your routine. Are we night owls? How do we collaborate? How the heck do we do all of this?

[Kevin Greenlee]

Because we, how do we break down the work?

[Anya Cain]

How do we break it down? I'm going to say this. We don't have an editor. We edit everything. So if you, if something's bad, then it's our fault. We do the hosting Obviously, we do all the technical issues. We. We have a wonderful person who runs our Facebook group, Elle, who's the best and is a queen and just does a great job. But other than that, we do most of everything. Yeah. It's all coming down to us.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Both of us are capable of doing any aspect of it. So it's not like Anya does all of this and Kevin does all of that.

[Anya Cain]

Kevin often needs to get out of the house, like, to kind of go take a break, take a walk once a day. I don't need that as much. I probably should do it, but I don't. I feel like I'm significantly, at this point. Not significantly. I'm at least somewhat faster than you at editing.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Yeah.

[Anya Cain]

And that we kind of. We started off the same. I've gotten faster. You're better than me at parsing down research of what really matters. I tend to get way too in the weeds. I am in the wee. I am stuck in the briar patch. Actually, that happened to me the other day. I got my. I got my hair caught in this, like, thorn. But it was a mess. I was almost. I was almost yelling for help. Fortunately, I was able to snap the branch off. And then it. It was embarrassing. But anyways, I digress. And we. I. I tend to work. I need. I need lists. I need people to write. If someone's like, hey, do this. I'm not going to remember in two minutes. I need people to write things down. I need people to give me lists. And I need music when I'm not editing audio. I need to work listening to music. I don't know why I've always been like that.

[Kevin Greenlee]

I just kind of need that for Delphi episodes. I think both of us are heavily involved in every aspect of it, usually. And we'll talk about it beforehand and say, what do we want to say about this? How far do we want to go here or there? Cheat sheet. I usually do two cases. You do two cases. And then there's a lot of episodes where, like, a particular crime or a case might attract one of our interests, and so that person will be primarily in charge of that particular episode.

[Anya Cain]

Yeah, that's. That's exactly right. And, you know, we can kind of. We try to have, you know, we try to do stuff that interests us and. And is enjoyable and also kind of. I. I learned this from Insider. You want to find the part of the Venn diagram where our audience is interested and we're interested. So we don't want to just be totally flinging our own weird interest at you all the time. Sometimes we will, but we want to kind of also do what you're interested in.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Yeah. And even if there's an episode, like, I'm in charge. And Anya will be making contributions, obviously, and vice versa.

[Anya Cain]

One thing that amuses me is people sometimes are like, oh, man. Like, especially people who don't like us. They'll be like, Kevin was obviously horrified with what Anya said. And it's like, we both sign off on everything. It's like.

[Kevin Greenlee]

And also, it's not a live program. No, it's not a live program. So if Anya says something she shouldn't, which incidentally happened earlier in this very recording, we can stop and we can edit it out, and no one's the wiser.

[Anya Cain]

Precisely.

[Kevin Greenlee]

So it's not like Anya goes off.

[Anya Cain]

The rails, nor does Kevin, in case anyone was wondering.

[Kevin Greenlee]

No one wonders that.

[Anya Cain]

Yeah, everyone. Well, there's a lot of. I'm gonna say this one weird thing about our work styles when it comes to journalism. I. This might surprise people because people see me as more, you know, fiery or yelling or whatever. I'm always yelling and crying. I feel like on the show, maybe at the same time, it's weird because you're a lot more swashbuckling with journalism. You want to do stuff, break stuff, do stuff. Like, I'm a lot more conservative. Like, well, if we do, I'm, like, having, like, that anxiety, like, prophesizing, like, if we do this, then that maybe means that we, you know, like, I'm, like, thinking about you tend to be a lot more like, let's just deal with it later. And I'm more like, let's hold back.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Because I read a lot of political books, and I always hated it when the Bob Woodwards of the world would wait until the publication of a book to reveal things. If you know something, share it with your audience. People think it's fun to have secrets. It's not fun to have secrets. It's fun to share information.

[Anya Cain]

Yeah, that's true.

[Kevin Greenlee]

We did not go into this business to keep secrets from people.

[Anya Cain]

So are you saying I'm like Bob Woodward, I'm trying to hide everything for the book? I'm not. No, it's.

[Kevin Greenlee]

No. So I'm saying because of that.

[Anya Cain]

That's right.

[Kevin Greenlee]

I always try to push to get things out on the podcast.

[Anya Cain]

I always want to get things out because I hate sitting on stuff. I. But I also kind of sometimes see things as like, if we do this, then it precludes us from doing this later. You know, we have to, you know, it like. I always try to think about what the long term ramifications. And my motto is sometimes that, like, especially in a sensitive case involving the murder of two kids, you can always do something later you don't like if you. If you. But if you put something out, you can't take it back. I think that was, you know, something that we learned early on. You know, in the reporting process, you have to be really thoughtful and careful because it's not even just always about, like, what you're putting out there. It's about explaining it to the extent that people will understand it and not, you know, kind of take away the wrong things.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Let's move on to another category which you have categorized is crime.

[Anya Cain]

All of our crimes that we're going to confess to now.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Anya, will murder sheet ever cover another trial?

[Anya Cain]

We find trial reporting and court reporting very well. Court reporting, but you know what I mean, going to court and reporting on it very fulfilling. And so we'd love to do this if the circumstances were right. Which one? I don't know. It would have to be the right circumstances. I'll remind people that Delphi was singular. There was no. No cameras and. And very limited seating. So like some trials, it may be less crucial and people might be less interested because they could just watch it on tv. But I think if the right trial came up, we would be interested in absolutely doing it again. People have asked us a lot about the Idaho trial. I think that's currently scheduled for the summer. If that coincides with when our book is coming out, that may not be possible, but it could always get pushed back, so I guess we'll see.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Anya, you and Kevin seem so close and always on the same page. Are there any cases where the two of you are in complete disagreement at times?

[Anya Cain]

In Burger Chef, we've had disagreements. I think at one time I was more in favor of being more interested in the robbery gang theory than you were. I kind of focus on a little bit more. But it's not like we've disagreed. I think you think it's important. And I'm not convinced that it's the right thing. And I've since cooled on it a little bit. It's one of those theories that I think both of us once in a while kind of go through it and we're like, this must be it. And then we're like, I don't know. These are the problems.

[Kevin Greenlee]

We've also have had pretty strong disagreements behind the scenes on Delphi.

[Anya Cain]

We have had Extremely strong disagreements on Delphi. We've had extremely strong. And actually, weirdly enough, we switched positions on Delphi quite a bit, where we, like, I'm. I'm for favor of X and your Y. And then we. Then I'm end up on your side, and you switched. We actually do that a lot when we have a disagreement. Sometimes we'll end up convincing the other one, and then we're on opposite sides, which is kind of funny, but annoying. Yeah, we've had strong disagreements on Delphi, and I think we both have been right about certain things about Delphi, and then wrong about other things. So it's kind of interesting. I think we kind of. It's not like. Like, you've been consistently wrong, and I've always turned out to be right. It's like we. We've really balanced it out in a weird way.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Yeah. Anya, is there a case you have not yet covered that interests you the most?

[Anya Cain]

You're gonna hate this answer. Guys, I'm sorry.

[Kevin Greenlee]

You are gonna hate this answer. I hate this answer.

[Anya Cain]

You know what? Buzz off. And you have to answer it, too, sir.

[Kevin Greenlee]

We'll see about that.

[Anya Cain]

Yeah. You're gonna do it. So the first Englishman executed in the New World was a man named George Kendall, who may or may not have been a spy. He was executed at Jamestown in probably November of 1607. And I want to do something on that at some point. I think it's interesting. Like the first capital punishment in the. In the first permanent English settlement in North America. I shouldn't say New World, because that's not accurate. There were people living here. Powhatan Confederacy had. This. Had the land of Virginia that they were in. So, anyways, I might want to do something on George Kendall. Sorry, everybody, but it's my little. It's my little interest. I know it's true crime. I mean, he was executed, but other than that, I think it. Yeah, that would. That. That's probably the big one.

[Kevin Greenlee]

I periodically get interested in art crimes, and there's not really any murders involved. Just.

[Anya Cain]

I bet there's some art murders. I bet. But probably find some. Is there an ARCME that you wanted to look into?

[Kevin Greenlee]

Nothing that really would seem at all appropriate for the program. I'm going to go down to a question, Anya. What are your thoughts on the new Superintendent Pick?

[Anya Cain]

On the new Superintendent Pick? Well, yeah. So I think so. Indiana Superintendent. Indiana State Police Superintendent Doug Carter.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Is retiring. A new gentleman has been picked. Behind the scenes, we hear a lot of positive things about him. I don't know too much about.

[Anya Cain]

His name's. It's Captain Anthony Scott.

[Kevin Greenlee]

I don't know too much about him personally, but I have heard a lot of very positive things behind the scenes.

[Anya Cain]

So we obviously welcome him, and he's gonna have a lot. He's gonna have big shoes to fill replacing Superintendent Carter, but. But it's cool. Someone asked us, do we think the Coburger case will go to trial in 2025? We don't know, but we intend to cover that more in the new year.

[Kevin Greenlee]

So let's move on to the final category, the dangerous category, The Danger zone. Personal. Personal. Anya, you're both such history buffs. What is it about history that draws you in?

[Anya Cain]

The drama, the people, the stories. I love them. I love it so much. I love. It's just like, people are always people, and it's fun to look back at ancient history. And I think you mentioned, like, Romans would write maudlin poems about their dogs that passed away. And reading Ben Johnson's poetry about losing a child, it just makes you feel connected to humanity in a way, because you're like, people have always been people, and then they do horrible things that are, like, bizarre and crazy. But. But don't we also do that? And. And so it's like, you know, it just fascinates me. I love reading about people. I. I one time thought about maybe trying to go into academia, but, like, the thing is, I'm too. My interests are just stupid. Like, it's. I'm like, you need to be into, like, the material culture of a time and place and, like, really getting into it. I'm more like, oh, my gosh, I can't believe the drama that happened in Jamestown. And, like, no one. Like, that's not what you're supposed to do. So I. I didn't. And also, there's no jobs in academia, and it's, like, just so competitive. So, like, I was. I just know. But I loved. I just love the. The people.

[Kevin Greenlee]

History is full of great stories. Sex, power, violence, corruption, decadence. It's all there for you.

[Anya Cain]

Just like our lives. No, I'm just kidding.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Jesus. Anya, Anya, what is your favorite color?

[Anya Cain]

Purple.

[Kevin Greenlee]

I'm not really a visual guy. I don't like bright colors. Frank Sinatra's favorite color was orange. So why don't I just say, that's not a.

[Anya Cain]

That's not a bright color.

[Kevin Greenlee]

That's what I'm saying. I don't like bright colors. He likes orange, so that's my favorite color.

[Anya Cain]

I thought you liked purple. That's What?

[Kevin Greenlee]

You told me purple is good, too.

[Anya Cain]

Oh, my gosh.

[Kevin Greenlee]

I'm happy. As long as it's not, like, neon yellow or something, I'm happy to adopt whatever favorite color you want me to have. I'm not a visual person. I have trouble recognizing people. I'm just not a good visual person.

[Anya Cain]

Yeah. If Kevin ever doesn't recognize you, don't get offended. He just. That is a struggle.

[Kevin Greenlee]

I remember people's names. I remember details about them. I don't remember what people look like.

[Anya Cain]

Do you remember me?

[Kevin Greenlee]

Sure.

[Anya Cain]

That didn't sound very confident. What's your favorite type of cereal?

[Kevin Greenlee]

See, my nightmare is I have allergies to a lot of things, so I can't really enjoy the variety of cereal I would like to enjoy. When I was a kid, my absolute favorite cereal that I craved, like, a passion would be Fruity Pebbles, but it has food coloring in it. I can't have now because it gives me migraines. But what you could do. Also, people always talk about Rice Krispie treats. You can make that. It doesn't have to be Rice Krispies. You can take something like Fruity Pebbles, and you can make Fruity Pebbles treats, and they're quite good.

[Anya Cain]

I like Rice Krispies. Mine is. I like the simple things. I like corn flakes.

[Kevin Greenlee]

You like me.

[Anya Cain]

You're simple. You're one of the simple men. I really like cornflakes, and when I was a kid, I liked sweet cereals, but now I'm like, nah, that's too much. That's too decadent for me. I can do cornflakes. I can do Rice Krispies, Raisin Bran if I'm getting really crazy. So I don't know. I. I have kind of boring cereal tastes, which is very funny given that you've made me out to be this cereal bandit of the world.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Anya, do you like board games? Card games?

[Anya Cain]

I. I was a very competitive child. I have three younger sisters, and so I remember one of my. This is my board game story. I remember me and my youngest sister played a game of Stratego. That was one of the most stressful things we. For some reason, that would be funny to be playing, like, the Super Marine song from the Dunkirk soundtrack by Hans Zimmer, which is a very stressful song if you've ever listened to it. And it was really intense, and I was winning, and she came from behind and beat me, and it was devastating. But I was always. I think I was always a little too intense about board games as a kid. I don't really play them that frequently as an adult. But I remember enjoying, like, Risk. Stratego. I wasn't very good at anything, but I would definitely take it very seriously. Cards against humanity can be kind of fun. Apples to apples. And I always hated Monopoly because I would always get my butt kicked at everything. But nowadays we play blackjack sometimes with our friends. And I didn't know what I was doing, but I somehow got a double blackjack. And I'm still bragging about it. So that was fun. What about you, Kevin?

[Kevin Greenlee]

I enjoy risk.

[Anya Cain]

You're a risk man. We had a Lord of the Rings risk. And so you'd move the, like, the. My family's very nerdy. You'd move the ring down to Mordor. And that was always fun. But I, again, I would always.

[Kevin Greenlee]

I don't even know what that means. Ring mortar.

[Anya Cain]

You're not a token man. I know. But anyways.

[Kevin Greenlee]

But, yeah, if you've ever been mushroom hunting, I will say, to the best of my knowledge, I've never even eaten a complete mushroom. Sometimes, like, I'll take, like, a little nibble. Mushrooms.

[Anya Cain]

I love that people who are not from the United States heard about mushroom hunting through Delphi and imagined us crazy Americans going around with, like, AK47s, like, shooting mushrooms in the woods. But it's. I've never been mushroom hunting. I always associate mushroom hunting being into true crime with finding dead bodies, which I'm sure doesn't happen that often, hopefully for the mushroom hunters. But. But, you know, it sounds. It sounds like it could be a fun day in the woods, but. But I don't know that much about it. I've never been hunting either. And I've also never been fishing. So I'm very much a suburban city girl in some ways. I guess.

[Kevin Greenlee]

You like Twin Peaks, the television show that was done by David lynch, so.

[Anya Cain]

I do. I really. Only to me, when they brought it back, it was too kind of freaky, and I was just like, I don't know, this is kind of scary. So I didn't really watch that as much, but I just kind of like the cozy vibes of the original. I wouldn't say I'm like, I think it was a little too surreal for me at times where I was like, I don't know what's going on, but I liked it. So, yes, I do like Twin Peaks. Did you watch Twin Peaks?

[Kevin Greenlee]

Sure, I watched it during its original broadcast.

[Anya Cain]

What did you think of it?

[Kevin Greenlee]

I was looking forward to it. The great magazine Entertainment Weekly was profiled it in advance. And I Said by gum. I'll watch this program.

[Anya Cain]

It's just fun. I just like. I really like it. And I just like the kind of small town, kind of mystery thing. Did you like it? Did it live up to your Entertainment Weekly expectations?

[Kevin Greenlee]

Yeah, I thought it was fine.

[Anya Cain]

So you weren't like, the biggest fan, but you liked it?

[Kevin Greenlee]

Sure. David lynch also. I haven't seen it in a long time. At the time, I liked Blue Velvet and the movie he did, is it Wild at Heart with Nicolas Cage and Laura Dern?

[Anya Cain]

I believe he said that's basically a very violent Elvis movie. That's really funny. I think I. I always really liked Dale Cooper, the FBI agent in that because he's obsessed with, like, food and, like, pies and coffee and he's just very upbeat. And I thought his character was really delightful. So I always really liked that.

[Kevin Greenlee]

There's a question about Lanny. We already kind of answered that.

[Anya Cain]

Yeah, we kind of answered it. What's her health update? Lanny's doing great. She had some medical procedure recently, but she's awesome and she's doing amazing. And we talked about how she was adopted and how she probably robbed banks in the Lafayette area and the Indiana State Police is probably looking for her to this day.

[Kevin Greenlee]

But then there was a question about me and my practice of law, particularly intellectual property. How did I get into that? This is going to be one of those frustrating answers that probably raises more questions than it answers. But so after I get out of law school, there's some stuff going on that I think you'd probably find boring. But it prevented me from practicing as aggressively as I would have liked. And so at some point during that, there's a science fiction writer you may or may not have heard of named Harlan Ellison who had a reputation for being a very contentious person, a person who was seen as being very formidable, very scary. He sued a publisher, a small publisher that I have a lot of respect and admiration for. This was a long time, I think, black back maybe in 2006. And so I was very upset and I got into lots of aggressive discussions on Internet message boards about it. And the publisher he was suing, I should clarify, is Fantagraphics, which publishes some of the finest comic books in the world. And so this was a case that particularly attracted the attention of people in the comic book community. And so there were even times when I would be having dialogue on some of these message boards back and forth with Harlan Ellison himself. And as a result of that, a number of people in the comic book world who saw those thoughts? That I handled that very, very well. And they started reaching out to me. Oh, you handled Harlan Ellison. I have this problem with the work I'm doing. My intellectual property. Can you help me with this? Can you help me with this? And so suddenly, I just found myself getting a lot of business from clients that way.

[Anya Cain]

That's wild. So your beef with Harlan Ellison led you to intellectual property law.

[Kevin Greenlee]

I think a lot of that stuff is no longer on the Internet. I think at some point early on in our relationship, didn't you either look it up or I steer you towards some of my back and forth with Ell.

[Anya Cain]

You're the lawyer on the Edge of Tomorrow. Didn't he write that episode of Star Trek? He wrote a version of it.

[Kevin Greenlee]

He wrote a version of City on the Edge of Tomorrow. So, yeah.

[Anya Cain]

No. City on the Edge of Forever.

[Kevin Greenlee]

City on the Edge of Forever. Yes. So, yeah, it was a stupid lawsuit he filed, and it threatened the existence of a very important publisher.

[Anya Cain]

Well, that's a jerk move.

[Kevin Greenlee]

And I communicated that to him repeatedly.

[Anya Cain]

Good for you, sir. So, yeah, did you read some of that? Did I read some of your back and forth with you?

[Kevin Greenlee]

Yeah, I think you did, didn't you?

[Anya Cain]

I think I did. I think I did. And I was like, dang, this guy's awesome. Talking about you, not Harlan Ellison.

[Kevin Greenlee]

That'd be pretty bad.

[Anya Cain]

And you're not really still practicing that much because you're doing this. You're focused on this. Did you ever consider another specialty?

[Kevin Greenlee]

I was always interested in criminal law, too.

[Anya Cain]

This is.

[Kevin Greenlee]

This Anya have any juicy stories from her Business Beat days?

[Anya Cain]

Juicy is probably not what I would say, but I have some maybe interesting ones. This is more funny. I remember me and this woman who worked in social media at Insider. We went to. We were sent to cover an event with Howard Schultz, who is the founder of Starbucks, and he was, like, giving an award to some people for, like, their charitable work. Work. And, like, it was. It was honestly one of the most awkward things. And I'm already pretty awkward. So, like, once something awkward happens to me, it's just a spiral from there. And so we go to this thing, and there are all these chairs set up, and the PR people know we're coming and we're pressed, so they want to give us, you know, good seats and whatnot and preferential treatment. So we write it up, and they. They kind of, like, kick these women out of these seats for us. And I was kind of like, like, you don't have to do that. And they're like, no, you're. These are your seats, like a whole big deal. And I'm just like, I'm dying of embarrassment already because I just. That feels kind of mean. And I'm like, oh, my God. So we sit there, and then Howard Schultz gives this whole talk about how these women were doing these amazing things for charity. And then he's like, where are they? And, like, it turns out they were the women who got kicked out. So I could sit there. I was just, like, dying. It was so awkward.

[Kevin Greenlee]

I've seen video of this on YouTube. It's awful.

[Anya Cain]

Yeah, I think I blacked out most of it. I can say that in my coverage, which was retail focused. Again, I can give you stereotypes of all the different PR teams. The meanest flacks, as they're called, or PR professionals that I met who said very mean things and sent me a very mean email was those working for Amazon. They were. They were really tough. And they were also, you know, pretty harsh. And I remember being on phone calls with them, we're like, who are your sources? And I'd be like, I'm not gonna tell you. So that was intense. Walmart, I always had a pretty good relationship with because they'd be always constantly annoyed by me, but I feel like they at least, like, they'd talk to me. And they felt I was fair because I'd asked them for their perspective. But I think they were always kind of exasperated but nice. And then the funniest people, Costco, when I was there, did not have a PR team. They didn't do any marketing. They just. They would have a bizarre Google form that you could fill out to request comment. And then inevitably, within a few days, a woman named Muriel would respond to you and say, request denied. And the reason for that is Costco is so popular, they don't have to do any marketing or any PR people. I'm just going to write about their pumpkin pies. No matter what I remember, I'd call, please tell me how many pumpkin pies you sold. And they'd be like, no, get out of here. And it was. That was always kind of funny. On a more dark side, one of the worst things that happened when I was reporting there was I did a piece on a company with it with another reporter. We were, you know, kind of investigating working conditions at Amazon fulfillment centers. And we did the story. It came out. It was whatever. And then, like a while later, I got an email from somebody who was like, oh, do you have this source's contact information? It was A, a worker who was named in the piece. And I was like, why do you want it? And they, this other reporter sent me a link for this guy had, who I had talked to, I'd interviewed pretty extensively, then took a gun into an Amazon store. And he didn't kill anybody or hurt anybody or shoot anybody. But it was awful. And I, I, it was really. It shook me afterwards because I was like, oh, my gosh, like, like, was he almost revving himself up talking to me about this? And I almost felt guilty about, like, I felt, like, awful. It was really sad. He was a young guy, too. I, I just, yeah, the whole thing was he went to prison. But I remember I just kind of had a. I kind of like, I, I really kind of was very upset by that when it happened.

[Kevin Greenlee]

On a lighter note, how did you guys meet? This is. So there is a, a newspaper research site called newspapers.com where you can look up newspaper articles on virtually any subject under the sun. And you can even, like, clip them and save them to your account. And the clipping is public. And so I, at this time, I have been getting increasingly interested, slash obsessed with the Burger Chef murders. And I'm talking to one of the original investigators on the case, and he is telling me that one thing I should do is look and see who else is interested in the case. Maybe the actual killer could be out there actively clipping articles about the case to relive his glory days. And so with that in mind, I go back to the site newspapers.com I've clipped numerous articles about the case. And I start looking to see, is there someone else out there there who is also clipping articles as avidly as I am? And I noticed that there is indeed such a person. I believe the profile name was like, AIT Kane or something. And so I do a little bit of research and soon find out that this person probably isn't the killer because she seems to be a young reporter in New York City. And so I decide what the heck. I figured out her email address and wrote her an email saying, basically, you're interested in the Burger Chef. What's up? And that, of course, was Anya.

[Anya Cain]

Yes. And I at that point was like, how the heck, like, what did I file something without, like, literally, my thought was, did I get drunk and file a FOIA and forget about it? But I had not. Kevin was just really good at Internet stalking, which I respected, because I also consider myself quite good at finding stuff on the Internet and finding people. And we kind of talked, and he was very Generous gave me sort of his Rolodex on Burger Chef, and I just kind of did. The article came out with it, and then afterwards, we kind of maintained a friendship. We would continue talking and chatting, and I think people want to know, like, who set. Who fell in love first? Oh, my gosh. So. And like, who said I love you first? But I think with. With this, we both are probably falling in love, but I think we both were like, you know, like, I didn't really recognize that at first, or at least I. I kind of did, but.

[Kevin Greenlee]

I was almost like, so I said it first.

[Anya Cain]

In other words, you said it first and you were more open about it first. And I was just like, oh, geez. And then I was like, yeah, I'm pretty. I'm like, I was totally obsessed with you. I was really, really. And I still am. Like, you're a very obsessible person. But I was like, whoa. And then I realized, wait, I'm pretty sure I'm in love too, because I get really, really excited to talk to him and I'm thinking about him constantly, and I want to text him all the time, and I want to spend more time with him. And all this stuff is that love?

[Kevin Greenlee]

And, you know, you sleuthed it out.

[Anya Cain]

I sleuthed it.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Those are the clues.

[Anya Cain]

I felt really dumb because I was like, wait, like, I fell in love, but I didn't. Didn't really didn't know it. Recognize. I'm like, just. We're really good friends. We're really, really good. He's my, like, this guy just suddenly became my best friend in, like two seconds. But, yeah, I was really, really obsessed with you in that. In that way.

[Kevin Greenlee]

And this. We've talked about this on the show before, and it makes me realize that there's something else that maybe some people haven't heard about or might be curious about. And this is a kind of an odd thing. If you want to hear an odd thing, I've got good news for you. So at some point, probably two or three years ago, we gave like a one or two sentence version of that story on some appearance somewhere. And we were then contacted by somebody who has a production company that did romantic comedy, nonfiction podcasts or something. And so they wanted. And we agreed they wanted to do a podcast episode about us meeting and falling in love. And it was an odd process because they did an interview with us, and then the person who interviewed us wrote a script distilling what we said. And then they sent the script to two actors who then played Kevin And Anya talking about that story we just told you. And it is very strange to hear.

[Anya Cain]

It's really cute, though. It's called when on you met Kevin, and it's from the When I met you series from Meet Cute, and you should look it up. It's really cute.

[Kevin Greenlee]

But it's odd because it's someone who's talking and they say they're Kevin, but it ain't me. And someone's talking and saying they're Anya and it's not her.

[Anya Cain]

That's acting, Kevin. They're actors.

[Kevin Greenlee]

I'm just saying. I'm just saying it is strange.

[Anya Cain]

But, yeah, we. I mean, I don't know. When did you realize you loved me? Like, how did you. Like, how did you figure that out? Was it just the same thing where you were.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Like, I. I think I'm more comfortable at recognizing feelings like that than you are, so I think I realized it much before you did.

[Anya Cain]

How did you realize it?

[Kevin Greenlee]

I loved you.

[Anya Cain]

You're just like, up there.

[Kevin Greenlee]

It is it.

[Anya Cain]

Yeah. But I feel very grateful because I feel like we wouldn't have met each other otherwise because we're from very different places and, like, where would we.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Anya lived in one of the suburbs of New York City, basically.

[Anya Cain]

Yeah. And you lived in Indianapolis. And it's like, wow.

[Kevin Greenlee]

And there's a. A little bit of an age gap.

[Anya Cain]

Oh, yeah. There's this extraordinary age gap, but you know that. I'm just kidding. But, like, to me, it's a pretty big age. It's pretty big. And. Oh, God, we're gonna get a discourse on this. Is that what's gonna happen? But, like, we. We were kind of like. It was one of those things where we're so similar in so many ways. That's the odd thing. We grew up in very different places. We have an age gap, but we still manage to be very similar. So one thing people talk about with age gaps, like, oh, what do you talk about? You don't have the same frame of reference. No, we have very similar, weird frame of references because we both watched a lot of old movies growing up, and that somehow seems to have formed, you know, kind of the. Like, we just. We're just very similar personality wise, in many respects. Even though I'm sure it comes off on the show. Like, I'm more talkative and chatty and Kevin's quieter. That's true, but baseline.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Yeah, we're very similar. I grew up with a pretty serious speech impediment, so that makes me tend to be quieter. But, yeah, age Gap. Couples unite. If you. If you're in an age gap, let.

[Anya Cain]

Us know, as long as it's not a problematic one. So let's see.

[Kevin Greenlee]

How do we make it work, Anya?

[Anya Cain]

How do we make it all work? How do we. How do we work so well together? How. How do we work with someone we live with? Because a lot of people feel like that would be difficult. What's our secret? And I. I think for. If you're considering working with your spouse, it is, you know, it. It's not. It's one of those things, like, I don't think that would work for everyone. That doesn't mean you don't have a beautiful, perfect relationship. That's wonderful. It's just that, like, it, you need to be compatible workmates as well as life mates. And so that. That's something to consider if you're considering that, because it can put a lot of pressure. And we happen to just work very well together, which is. Is nice. We both have a passion for this show and what we do and the reporting we do, it's really fun for us. It can be stressful. But if we, you know, like, when we got an interview with Jerry Holman, we were like, wow, this is really cool. We, like, this is something we've been really, you know, wanting to do that talks to someone who was directly involved in this case. So when you have a passion for something and you share that, you can both get excited about your work. That helps a lot, too. But we try to separate things into boundaries. We try to have a business mode and a family mode. We really try to not work in the evenings and on weekends. We have violated that a lot recently just because of the trial kind of messing everything up. But I feel like I really respect you and appreciate your insights. So even if we disagree about something at work, you know, you don't want to make anything personal. You want to just be like. Like, let's hear out our disagreement or our differences on what we should do and try to make the best business decision for both of us. Does that make sense?

[Kevin Greenlee]

Yeah.

[Anya Cain]

What do you think? How do you think we work together?

[Kevin Greenlee]

I think we work very well together. We have similar work styles, and, yeah, we've divided the work in such a way that I think it works. The workflow is great. You are a very thoughtful person, very intelligent, very articulate. It's a real pleasure and an honor to work with you. I. I think you have a special strength in doing interviews and getting people to feel comfortable enough with us to even do an Interview. And you're a real delight to work with. Aw.

[Anya Cain]

You're. You're a delight to work with. And thank you for reading that cue card, so. Well, no, it. We. It's. We have fun together. I think that helps. We have fun doing our jobs together. And Kevin's a really fun person to hang out with, so.

[Kevin Greenlee]

As is Anya.

[Anya Cain]

Aw. I think someone wanted to know, are we. Do we. Do we picture ourselves having kids in the future? Answer is yes. Despite all the horrible stuff we talk on the sh. About on the show, that would be something we'd want to do. Somebody asked about, aside from reading, because we talk a lot about reading. What are our favorite downtime activities? What do we do when we're just hanging out around the house other than reading? Recently, we've been watching a lot of Parks and Rec together, which is an awesome show set in Indiana, and that's really fun, and we both really enjoy it. We like to kind of sometimes, like, recently we started watching a lot of, like, we'll just get into weird projects. We're like, we're gonna watch a lot of Clint Eastwood movies. I don't know why we just kind of want to do it.

[Kevin Greenlee]

I enjoy eating Pez.

[Anya Cain]

Oh, that's not like, an activity.

[Kevin Greenlee]

For me. It is. I take it pretty seriously.

[Anya Cain]

We like to go on walks. We like to walk around in parks or around, you know, around our block. Go to, you know, different things. Sometimes we try to go to, like, comedy shows a little bit, but we're not really that social, honestly.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Write some fiction.

[Anya Cain]

We write. We write fiction. Just. I kind of need to. To process life, so. And then you do it as well, kind of in the evening sometimes. It's fun, but we kind of just kind of hang out. We're kind of home bodies, I think. We're not super outgoing. We'll try to go to a concert and be, you know, cool every once in a while. But we're kind of nerds. We spend a lot of time with each other, which is. Which is fun, I think somebody wanted to know, have we traveled overseas? What's our ideal vacation location and activity? And have we ever been to Canada? Specifically Saskatchewan. Never been to Saskatchewan, but I've been to Montreal. I've been to Quebec. I've been to Niagara Falls. I've been to Windsor, Ontario, and I love Canada. It's beautiful. But I've not been to Saskatchewan. And you love Canada, right, Kevin?

[Kevin Greenlee]

Yes.

[Anya Cain]

You're obsessed with Niagara Falls.

[Kevin Greenlee]

I love Niagara Falls. I've never been to Saskatchewan, but of Course, like any reasonable right thinking person, I've watched a lot of Corner Gas, which is a Canadian sitcom which takes place in Saskatchewan.

[Anya Cain]

That is a delightful show. I've watched some of it with you and it's really cute and fun. Ideal vacation. I would love to go to.

[Kevin Greenlee]

You've been overseas?

[Anya Cain]

I've been. Oh, yeah, I've been overseas.

[Kevin Greenlee]

I have not.

[Anya Cain]

No. We went to Hawaii recently, but I guess that doesn't count because it's the United States. I've been to Spain and Ireland. I have a lot of cousins in Ireland, and so we visited some of them and they're awesome. Ireland is the best. You can tell from my name that I'm Irish. My. My grandparents are. Are from Ireland, so. And then my dad's side of the family is super Irish too, but they came over in, like, the 1800s, and Ireland is the best. Spain is beautiful, but that was many years ago. And, yeah, I love. Traveling is fun. The one I really want to go to is Italy. Is like Rome, the Vatican, Pompeii, all that. I love Roman history and I'm Catholic, so I feel like I should go to Italy at some point. That'd be really cool.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Someone says, where would you like to go if time was not a factor, by which I think we're talking about time travel.

[Anya Cain]

I said Jamestown, 1607. As long as I could disguise myself because there were no women, there were no English women there. And as long as I could also have fresh water and my own food supply that I could hide from everyone else because I wouldn't, you know, I wouldn't want to mess up the time space continuum and. Yeah, yeah. Where would you go back in time to?

[Kevin Greenlee]

I think the early Roman Empire would be interesting. I love the letters of Pliny, who was writing around that time. A lot of great writing done then that has been lost, that I would love to have a chance to read.

[Anya Cain]

You'd go with your iPhone and just start taking pictures over their shoulder. Yeah, yeah. Rome would be pretty cool. But I gotta say. I gotta say Jamestown. I mean, it would suck because everyone was dying, but, like, as long as I could kind of, like, do my own thing and not be part of that. I don't want to die of salt poisoning. You know, I'm not. I'm not about that. I just. If I could almost go and more observe, that would be what I would prefer to do because I want to know what all the drama was and what everyone was so fighting over. And I want the tea, in other words. So I Don't know if that's what that person was asking about, but that's what we answered. Where would you go for just a normal vacation that doesn't involve time travel?

[Kevin Greenlee]

I'd love to visit Rome today.

[Anya Cain]

Okay, so we want to go to Lily. Pretty cool.

[Kevin Greenlee]

You are well known and celebrated as one of this nation's premier fans of Nancy Drew.

[Anya Cain]

No, I'm not.

[Kevin Greenlee]

So what would you say are some of the best Nancy Drew?

[Anya Cain]

First one I read when I was six was a dancing puppet one. I remember thinking the one, the velvet hood one was crazy. And it is. That's the one with the COVID that looks like it's Nancy Drew versus the Zodiac killer. Moss covered mansions. Also completely unhinged. Redgate Farm, unhinged. It's Nancy Drew against a cult that looks like they're dressed like the Ku Klux Klan. Like, what was I reading? And then I think I liked in legitimate liked. Missing map. I remember I was really scared by the secret of the old attic because there were spiders in it. Spoiler. I think the tolling bell was a good one. So there's a lot of good. I was obsessed with those as a kid. I really thought that my teenage years would be spent driving around in a blue convertible. Where I was gonna get that, I don't know. But when I was six, I was determined and solving mysteries with my friend, friends and boyfriend that did not end up happening when I was 18. So that was kind of sad. But I did, I did always love mysteries and crime fiction and sort of stuff like that. Nancy solves a lot of crimes that are not, like, murders. She solves a lot of, like, fraud against elderly people, which is actually a serious issue. So I think I appreciate that. And a lot of smuggling. A lot of. A lot of smuggling. So I wish we lived in a world where, like, that was the biggest problem going on in the community, that smuggling and people being, you know, trying to scheme elderly spinsters out of their inheritance. Because, I mean, we could probably deal with that better.

[Kevin Greenlee]

What is the greatest accomplishment of your life so far? I think for me, it is the fact that I'm this old guy. I'm fat.

[Anya Cain]

No.

[Kevin Greenlee]

I'm out of shape.

[Anya Cain]

Oh, my God. No. What are you doing?

[Kevin Greenlee]

Don't look too good.

[Anya Cain]

You look adorable.

[Kevin Greenlee]

And somehow how I was able to win the heart of a beautiful, smart, sophisticated New York woman named Anya Kane.

[Anya Cain]

Oh, that's really sweet. I was going to say winning your heart was my accomplishment, too.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Now it's just going to sound like you'd be stealing from me.

[Anya Cain]

I know I'm plagiarizing. Well, I, I, I adore you and yeah, winning your heart was my biggest accomplishment. And, and we're really, you know, we're, that, that, that's the biggest accomplishment of our lives. I'm, I'm proud of what we accomplished with, with the coverage of the different crimes we do, and we really hope to kind of grow from there and kind of just continue to expand. But I guess one thing I'm exceptionally proud of as well to talk about Murder Sheet is the fact that you trust us with your time and interest and you kind of give us that time and that means a lot because you could be doing anything else, you could be listening to any other show, but you're here with us and we want to continue to earn that trust and earn that and respect your time. And so we just want to thank you. I mean, without you being here, we wouldn't be, we wouldn't be able to do any of this. We wouldn't have done any of the reporting, we wouldn't have covered the trial and just, I just, I guess, like, I just want to express immense gratitude. I'll never be able to go around and show up at each of your houses and say thank you, but I want to, so, you know, just thank you. And I really hope that everyone, you know, had a lovely holiday season and is going to have a wonderful 2025 and just be safe and that you and your family are safe and happy and just thank you.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Thank you for listening. Thanks so much for listening to the Murder Sheets. If you have a tip concerning one of the cases we cover, please email [e-mail]. if you have actionable information about an unsolved crime, please report it to the appropriate authorities.

[Anya Cain]

If you're interested in joining our Patreon, that's available at www.patreon.com. if you want to tip us a bit of money for records requests, you can do so at www. Buymeacoffee.com murdersheet. We very much appreciate any support.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Special thanks to Kevin Tyler Greenlee, who composed the music for the Murder Sheet and who you can find on the [e-mail] if you're looking to talk with.

[Anya Cain]

Other listeners about a case we've covered, you can join the Murder Sheet discussion group on Facebook. We mostly focus our time on research and reporting, so we're not on social media much. We do try to check our email account, but we ask for patience as we often receive a lot of Messages. Thanks again for listening. So this holiday season, we want to sincerely thank our latest sponsor, Quint. This is a wonderful company that's all about making the finer things in life really accessible for everybody. That means Italian leather handbags. That means gold jewelry and items. But it especially means their wonderful line of Mongolian cashmere products. So sweaters, things like that.

[Kevin Greenlee]

And, and not just, as you so astutely noted, not just that. There are other things they offer. Like, you know, for many years, I thought, well, wouldn't it be fun to dress like Colonel Hogan from Hogan's Heroes? He always wears this bomber jacket. But you go to these stores, you go to these online marketplaces, and these bomber jackets, ridiculously high price because everybody wants to look like Colonel Hogan. But Clint offers that at an affordable price.

[Anya Cain]

Yeah. And they even threw in some quirky side characters to help you dig holes in the yard, which has, frankly, been pretty inconvenient for our neighbors and me. But I'm glad you're having a good time. So that was your goal. And I'm curious because we both got to select some Quint's products to, to purchase. And your goal was.

[Kevin Greenlee]

And you're not, I'm not saying that if you buy this great jacket, you're going to look like a character from a TV show that maybe you haven't even watched. You're just going to look good because he was a charming character.

[Anya Cain]

He was a charming character and he had a good fashion sense. So, I mean, I think you, I'm just fascinated by the way your mind works, I guess. Guess. But, but, but no, I, I, I think you look really cute in that bomber jacket. I really like it on you. I was, I was proud of you for getting it because I think, you know, you kind of, you have your kind of Kevin uniform, and this was a bit different, but I think it was so nice and it's such a good price that you kind of were like, I can't, can't say no to that one.

[Kevin Greenlee]

So what TV characters were you trying to emulate with your cashmere sweaters?

[Anya Cain]

None. I wasn't trying to emulate anyone, but I, I was, I really like sweaters, and so I, I consider myself. I wouldn't say I'm a sweater connoisseur. You know, I've never really had, like, a cashmere sweater. I mean, that's something I associate with being, like, very luxurious, very fancy. So I got two of their sweaters, and they are so nice. We actually, I wore one when we went to get dinner with our friends the other night, we. I. I've kind of worn it a lot ever since. They're both really cute. And also, you know, one thing with sweaters is sometimes if you're just wearing them and you're not wearing, like an undershirt or something, that can kind of get scratchy. These ones are so soft. They feel so good on your skin. There's, like, no issues with that. And they're just very. They just feel a little bit like quiet luxury, a little fancy. And that. That's really nice. And I think they, for me, they go with a lot of different things in my wardrobe. So it's like I, I appreciate that. They can kind of be like a bit of a. A staple there. For me, I'm not. It's, you know, like, you. Everyone, everyone's had the thing where they're like, I'm gonna wear this all the time. And then you don't. And, like, it doesn't go with anything. So, like, what are you doing? But these are the opposite of that. They kind of go with everything thing. For Murder Sheet listeners, there is a very special deal gift luxury this holiday season without the luxury price tag. Go to quinn.commsheet for 365 day returns plus free shipping on your order. That's Q U I n c e.com sheet to get free shipping and 365 day returns. Quints.com sheet.

[Kevin Greenlee]

That's a great deal.

[Anya Cain]

It really is.