Serial Killers and Pen Pals: A Conversation with Forensic Psychologist Jeff Smalldon on His Correspondences with Charles Manson, Ted Bundy, John Wayne Gacy, and More

Summary

---

Murder Sheet Podcast

Episode: "Serial Killers and Pen Pals: A Conversation with Forensic Psychologist Jeff Smalldon on His Correspondences with Charles Manson, Ted Bundy, John Wayne Gacy, and More"

Date: December 2, 2025
Host(s): Áine Cain and Kevin Greenlee
Guest: Dr. Jeff Smalldon, forensic psychologist and author of That Beast Was Not Me: One Forensic Psychologist, Five Decades of Conversations with Killers

---

Episode Overview

This episode delves into the remarkable, chilling, and sometimes darkly comical experiences of Dr. Jeff Smalldon, a forensic psychologist who began writing to infamous killers while still a college student. Hosts Áine Cain and Kevin Greenlee explore Smalldon's correspondences—and sometimes in-person encounters—with Charles Manson, Ted Bundy, John Wayne Gacy, and others. Drawing on stories from his book, Dr. Smalldon provides a first-hand account of why these criminals write back, the psychology behind their communications, and what society’s fascination with these murderers says about all of us.

---

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Dr. Jeff Smalldon’s Unorthodox Journey into Forensic Psychology (06:41 – 11:49)

• Raised by an old-school FBI agent, Smalldon became fascinated by crime early on.
• His initial obsession was with the Lincoln assassination conspirators.
• Smalldon’s path to forensic psychology was winding:
  • He considered becoming an English professor, studied literature in Ireland, then moved into hospital administration (06:41).
  • After two coworkers were brutally murdered at his hospital, his interest in the criminal mind was reignited, prompting his psychology PhD.
• Quote:

  "I took a very non linear path...some of my earliest entanglements with notorious killers occurred. The thought of becoming a forensic psychologist had never even entered my mind."
  — Dr. Jeff Smalldon (06:41)

2. Origins of the Pen Pal Correspondences (11:49 – 12:31; 15:35 – 22:36)

• At his professor's suggestion, Smalldon wrote to Manson and key Manson Family members. Nearly all replied.
• He maintained correspondences with Manson, Lynette "Squeaky" Fromm, Susan Atkins, and even Ted Bundy and John Wayne Gacy.
• Quote:

  "I was fascinated by [Manson]. I wanted to see if his public image was as sort of a screaming maniac…"
  — Dr. Jeff Smalldon (12:31)

3. The Allure and Reality of Charles Manson and His Followers

• Manson’s charisma and how he manipulated vulnerable followers (15:46 – 22:36)
  • Fromm and Sandy Good saw Manson as a savior-type figure.
  • The women’s early letters were filled with flowery, peace-and-love language which quickly escalated to apocalyptic and even violent overtones.

• Notable moment where Fromm and Good actively tried to recruit Smalldon into their cause:

  "We're moving out of the realm of words…warn them that a wave of assassins will soon run through their homes and splash blood from room to room."
  — Letter from Sandy Good, recalled by Dr. Jeff Smalldon (22:50)

• Smalldon narrowly escaped further involvement by subterfuge, just weeks before Fromm’s assassination attempt on President Ford.
• Quote:

  "I need to look for an exit ramp quickly. And I did. I found one through subterfuge."
  — Dr. Jeff Smalldon (22:50)

4. Myths About Manson and the Psychology of His Followers (28:00 – 31:03)

• Smalldon, referencing memoirs from Manson followers, debunks the myth of Manson as an omnipotent puppet master.
• The infamous Helter Skelter theory was more the product of drug-fueled groupthink and less an orchestrated plan.

• "He was a very clever, very savvy career criminal who understood how to manipulate people. But there was nothing magical about his powers..."
  — Dr. Jeff Smalldon (28:00)

5. Correspondence with Ted Bundy: The Serial Killer’s Tease (31:03 – 37:20)

• Smalldon wrote to Bundy hoping for insights for a case that haunted him.
• Bundy responded after more than a year, with a letter marked by condescension and a chilling sign-off:

• "Take care. Watch yourself. Travel light. Peace, Ted."
  — Ted Bundy, via Dr. Jeff Smalldon (approx. 36:50)

• Smalldon interprets Bundy's cryptic closing as a disturbing “joke"—both practical advice for predators, and implicit warning for potential victims.

6. Meeting John Wayne Gacy: Alone with a Monster (37:20 – 47:57)

• Smalldon describes his nerve-wracking, isolated experiences interviewing John Wayne Gacy in prison.
• He notes Gacy’s narcissism and repeated, delusional insistence on his innocence—even when confronted with overwhelming evidence.
• Notable Quote:

  "I know you're here looking for the monster, but now you're about to meet the man, and you're going to find out he's a normal person, just like you."
  — John Wayne Gacy, recalled by Dr. Jeff Smalldon (38:27)

• Gacy persistently tried to sell Smalldon his paintings, forecasting their value would rise. Years later, this proved true.

7. The Dangerous Dance: What Killers Want from Correspondents (45:02 – 47:57)

• Smalldon believes most respond because they see a chance to use the correspondent—for attention, validation, or other advantages.
• "Manson certainly did. The Manson women certainly did. Gacy did, though...I think Gacy sort of saw me as an intellectual equal." (45:19)
• Gacy’s evaluation of Smalldon as a potential victim is especially chilling:

• "It's a little strange to walk away from two days with someone like that knowing you've probably become his newest fantasy object. And for Gacy, fantasy involves sexual torture and murder."
  — Dr. Jeff Smalldon (45:39)

8. Mental Health and Coping Strategies (47:57 – 49:38)

• Smalldon describes the necessity of compartmentalization to protect his well-being, given regular exposure to horrific material and dangerous people.

9. Should Listeners Write Serial Killers? Advice and Warnings (49:38 – 54:20)

• Smalldon does not recommend the public correspond with convicted serial killers. He notes their manipulativeness, capacity for deception, and personal risk.
• Describes techniques for establishing a rapport as a professional, advocating respect but non-judgemental engagement.

10. Profile of Death Row Killers: Empathy Deficit and Malignant Narcissism (54:20 – 59:28)

• Shares clinical insights:
  • Many exhibit an "absence of the capacity for empathy."
  • Malignant narcissism is common: "everything revolves around them."
• Example: Gacy kept photos of his victims but regarded them as "no more real...than those cartoon characters in that painting." (54:54)

11. Impact of Crime on Smalldon’s Family and Early Life (59:28 – 62:03)

• Shares a formative story about his father's involvement in the 1966 Peggy Ann Bradnick kidnapping, instilling both fear and fascination with crime.

12. Why Are We So Obsessed with Serial Killers? (62:03 – 67:28)

• Smalldon discusses society’s true crime fixation, including ethical dilemmas for journalists and audiences who follow unsolved cases.

• "I've often told people over the years I was fascinated in the psychology, particularly of repeat killers, but I was always mainly interested in the complicated dynamic between members of the social audience and the people who commit these horrible crimes."
  — Dr. Jeff Smalldon (62:36)

---

Notable Quotes

• On Manson’s Manipulation:
  "Up in Haight Ashbury in San Francisco, people call me the gardener because I help young people bloom and become like flowers." (19:44)
• On Gacy's Delusion:
  "I'm not a real artist, but, you know, I have my style, just like Michelangelo and da Vinci had theirs." (45:39)
• On Empathy Deficit:
  "I look at those kids, and I think they are no more real to me than any...than those cartoon characters in that painting." (54:54)
• Journalistic Quandaries:
  "I describe a situation where I was wishing for an outcome that might very well result in the deaths of more people ... what does this say about you that you're actually wishing for an outcome...my segment of 60 Minutes." (62:36)

---

Timestamps: Important Segments

• 06:41: Smalldon discusses his journey to forensic psychology and early brush with notorious killers.
• 12:31: On the Manson Family’s appeal, charisma, and Smalldon’s first correspondences.
• 22:50: Escalation with Manson’s followers and their apocalyptic letters.
• 28:00: Debunking Manson as all-powerful/mastermind; the realities of Helter Skelter.
• 36:50: Bundy’s response and the sinister “serial killer’s tease.”
• 38:27: Smalldon's jailhouse encounter with Gacy, dangers of being alone with a killer.
• 45:39: Gacy evaluates Smalldon as a fantasy object; the economics of murderabilia.
• 49:56: Smalldon cautions listeners against writing to notorious killers.
• 54:54: Psychological traits common among death row murderers.
• 62:36: Societal fascination with killers and the ethical dilemmas for journalists and true crime followers.

---

Memorable Moments

• Smalldon intercepting Manson’s letters before his FBI father could see them, worried about parental embarrassment. (22:50)
• Gacy’s gloating over his paintings’ future value, and Smalldon confirming Gacy was right (45:39).
• Smalldon's admission that many years in, compartmentalization was both a shield and a potential personal red flag (48:18).

---

Tone & Takeaways

The conversation maintains a thoughtful, sometimes wry tone, balancing grave subject matter with clear-eyed candor. Dr. Smalldon speaks with humility and warns repeatedly of the dangers—psychological and otherwise—of treating serial killers as just another curiosity. The hosts blend empathy and fascination, asking direct questions and highlighting the ethical complications at the heart of true crime storytelling.

---

Further Exploration

Book Plug:
That Beast Was Not Me: One Forensic Psychologist, Five Decades of Conversations with Killers by Dr. Jeff Smalldon is available widely (Amazon, Barnes & Noble, indie bookstores upon request).

---

For listeners seeking a deep, reflective, and at times chilling look into the true crime psyche—both of killers and those who study them—this episode offers unparalleled access and insight, with just enough personal anecdotes to remind us all of the stakes involved.

Transcript

[A]

It's cold. The holidays are coming up and it's time to refresh your wardrobe effortlessly with our wonderful sponsor, Quince.

[B]

Quince makes uplifting your style easy and affordable. We're talking luxury goods for less Mongolian cashmere sweaters to Italian wool coats Just in time to deck the halls for.

[A]

The holidays, Quince keeps prices down on these premium fashion staples by cutting out the middleman. We're talking prices 50% less than those of their competitors.

[B]

My quince sweaters are quickly becoming my go to garments as the temperatures fall. I really enjoy putting on my Australian merino wool cable crew neck sweater and my Navy Mongolian cashmere crew neck sweater. They are so soft and do an incredible job keeping me comfortable in these temperatures.

[A]

Kevin is too modest to say, but he also looks very cute in them. Whether you're treating yourself for the holidays or looking for terrific gifts for your loved ones, Quinn's is the place to go for coats, sweaters, silk shir and dresses and much more. We're confident you'll love Quince as much as we do, and with prices 50% less than other brands, they make it easy to stay stylish without squeezing your wallet.

[B]

Get your wardrobe sorted out and your gift list handled with quints. Don't wait. Go to quints.commsheet for free shipping on your order and 365 day returns. Now available in Canada too. That's Q U I n c e.com msheet free shipping and 365 day returns. Quints.com msheet vrbo's last minute deals make.

[A]

Chasing fresh mountain powder incredibly easy. With thousands of homes close to the slopes, you can get epic pow freshies, first tracks and more. Find Last Minute deals with the Last Minute filter on the app. Book a private vacation rental [e-mail] I'm Anya and we're going to talk with a forensic psychologist who's essentially been pen pals with so many infamous murders since he was a college student.

[B]

Content Warning this episode contains discussion of violence, rape and murder, including the rape and murder of children. It also contains some profanity.

[A]

Jeff Smallden is one heck of a correspondent. Since he was a college student, he has traded letters with some of the most infamous killers in United States history. That started long before he even became a distinguished forensic psychologist, an expert on what makes killers tick.

[B]

Perhaps his path in life should come as no surprise. His father was a longtime old school Federal Bureau of Investigation Special agent, a G man, if you will. So he was raised in an environment where crime was a big deal. But Jeff's path towards becoming a forensic psychologist, one who worked closely with murderers convicted in capital cases, was anything but linear. He pursued other things. Academia, hospital administration. When two of his colleagues ended up viciously murdered, he found his desire to study crime, and criminals reignited.

[A]

Now, Jeff has written an excellent book, that Beast Was Not Me. One Forensic psychologist, five Decades of Conversations with Killers. This is an engaging, lively, and detailed telling of Jeff's decades of dealings with figures from some of the most notorious crimes out there. Today on our show, he will discuss some of that with us, but we're really only going to scratch the surface. I want you guys to read the book so we can talk about it. It is fascinating.

[B]

In our conversation with him, he will get into John Wayne Gacy's paintings and prickliness, Ted Bundy's pompous writing style, and the tense moment that Charles Manson's dangerous female acolytes tried to get Jeff to join their bizarre cause.

[A]

My name is Anya Cain. I'm a journalist.

[B]

And I'm Kevin Greenlee. I'm an attorney.

[A]

And this is the Murder Sheet.

[B]

We're a true crime podcast focused on original reporting, interviews, and deep dives into murder cases. We're the Murder Sheet.

[A]

And this is Serial Killers and Pen Pals, a conversation with forensic psychologist Jeff Smalldin on his correspondences with Charles Manson, Ted Bundy, John Wayne Gacy, and more sa. So, first of all, Jeff, thank you so much for coming on the podcast today. We really appreciate it.

[C]

Thank you for having me. I'm delighted to be your guest.

[A]

We've been so excited to talk about your book. That Beast Was Not Me. One Forensic Psychologist, five Decades of Conversations with Killers. But we need to start out by talking about how, reading your book, we both realized this guy is, like, a combination of both of us. Let me just, like, list some of the bizarre coincidences. You are also obsessed with the assassination of Abraham Lincoln from an early age. After a visit to Ford's Theater, your mom has lived in Niagara Falls, where we got married and you attended. I'm gonna butcher the name. Kevin, can you take over here?

[B]

Valparaiso.

[A]

Valparaiso University in Indiana, and then Purdue University in West Lafayette, Indiana, and also Trinity College in Dublin. I'm. I'm Irish, and of course, we're based in Indiana. So we were like, yeah, Jeff, I. We just kept running into all these weird coincidences.

[C]

That's cool. You're based in Indiana. You were married in Niagara Falls. Was that just you thought of that as a cool place to Go to get married.

[A]

It's Kevin's like maybe favorite place in the world. And you know, we kind of thought it was kind of a fun, you know, we always watch old movies and everyone's running off to Niagara Falls to get married. So I guess I was amused by that.

[C]

Oh, and your wife watching Marilyn on that float in, in the movie Niagara, which is a great movie classic. Yeah, a Niagara Falls classic.

[A]

I love it. But I was just like, this is so cool. So you have a really unique story and that's kind of the basis of, of this book in many regards. You did not take a linear path to becoming a forensic psychologist, Is that fair to say? Can you tell us a little bit about that?

[C]

That is very fair to say. I took a very non linear path when some of my earliest entanglements with notorious killers occurred. The thought of becoming a forensic psychologist had never even entered my mind. It was never on my radar. I grew up the son of an old school FBI agent, became obsessed, as you mentioned, at an early age when I was about 8, with the conspirators who plotted to kill President Lincoln and some other people. And crime was sort of in the air that I breathed when I was a kid. Like my, my, my dad was on the trail of the Niagara Falls Mafia. That was his primary beat. Once we settled there when I was in fourth grade, so I was interested in crime and law enforcement and just that whole web of associations. And then when I was a senior in college, a professor for a course in abnormal psychology had read Helder Skelter, as I had as well, about the Manson case. And he said after class one day when we were talking in the hallway, have you ever considered writing to some of those people to hear what they would sound like in their own voice? And of course I had never thought of doing that. Thought had never occurred in my mind. But over time I thought, well, what do I have to lose? Looking back, I had quite a bit I could have lost, but I was very naive and curious at the time. So I wrote to them and pretty much everyone who I wrote responded, including Manson, his then number two in command, who was not in prison. Lynette Squeaky Fromy, Susan Atkins. For people who are familiar with the cast of characters in that case and those correspondences occurred for a number of years. And that's one story in my meandering path. And then I thought that chapter was behind me. I was going to become an English professor. I had done my master's at Purdue and then I returned to my alma mater Valparaiso University and taught in the English department for a year. And then I got a grant to study modern Irish literature at Trinity College in Dublin for a year which turned out by the way to be like the greatest year of my life. People sometimes say, well what was it about that year studying literature at Trinity College that caused you to rethink your prior goal of becoming an English professor? And it certainly wasn't that there was anything negative about that year. But at some point it dawned on me that I might not be well suited for an academic environment. The publish and parish mentality that dominated at the time. And so for completely random reasons, and this is one of the things that I hope readers of my story will take away and other people have moments like this, you know, where you, you make decisions for very underdetermined reasons and kind of a random decision and everything in your life changes from that point forward. For me the decision was to have a go at a career in hospital administration. And about the closest association I had with healthcare was my mom was a nurse. I had never taken one business course in my life. No economics, no finance, no accounting, no human resources management, none of that. Had no, couldn't even envision myself as a businessman in any way. But I did it. I did my master's and I ended up of all places at a large community hospital in Columbus, Ohio, where I still live. And about after my residency year I was asked to stay on. And about two years in, two of my coworkers were murdered between 4:30 and 5 in the afternoon on a Friday in a small research lab located just off the hospitals main corridor. And that just blew my mind. At the time I thought what I knew these women, it was a department I had administrative responsibility for. And I thought this is insane. The Manson chapter was a decade ago. And now I, it feels like I'm being followed by murder somehow. I, I couldn't explain it, but I knew that going to work was no longer comfortable for me. So after, I guess it was about a year after the murders, I decided I was going to enroll at Ohio State and begin work toward my PhD in psychology with an eye toward becoming a forensic psychologist. Career where I thought I would gain a close vantage point to study the minds and motives of killers. And that's what I did.

[A]

It's so fascinating because I mean like as you, it's almost like an odyssey of murder. Like your life is just, you're going to do different things. And even before you had this goal of being a forensic psychologist, just stuff keeps happening and you just keep on having these interactions and situations that are so fascinating. I, I do want to go back because it feels like the Manson family was really your, you know, entry into this world beyond just experiencing it through your dad's work.

[C]

Yeah, it was.

[A]

And so like, you know, why do you think just what, what grips us about Manson? What continues to grip American society and true crime in general and you about Manson and what he did in particular?

[C]

Well, at the time, and Remember, this was 1975, only six years after the murder spree that gave rise to Manson's infamy. And to me, he pretty much was the boogeyman. You know, he was the cult leader. You know, the story had all of the ingredients that make for a sensational tale, that drugged sex sort of cult like behavior. A very charismatic leader and whatever, whatever else you want to say about Charles Manson, he was a very charismatic person. He only had about a fifth grade education, but if you've ever seen him interact with journalists who tried to engage him over the years, Diane Sawyer, Charlie Rose, Geraldo Rivera, I mean, he puts on some bravura performances. You can't take your eyes off him. He's just a very charismatic person. And that's how I thought of him back in 1975. When I wrote to him, I had no real thought that he would respond to my letter. And he did, in a very prickly fashion, basically said, don't bullshit me. If you're prepared to tell me who you are and why you're writing me, then, you know, maybe I'll engage with you, but otherwise go away. And so I took a very different approach in my next letter and did tell him something about myself. And that prompted a very different kind of letter from him. And I, you know, we can talk about that if you want to, but at the same time I began corresponding with him, I used a very unconventional means, maybe too complicated to get into now to find out where Lynette Squeaky from, I'm going to call her from. Some people call her from me, some people call her from, I'm going to say, from where Squeaky Fromm was living. And I managed to get a letter into her hands. And that began a very harrowing two, two and a half months of correspondence with her and her roommate, another ardent Manson devotee, Sandy Good. That ended in late June, approximately two months before Squeaky attempted to assassinate then President Gerald Ford. And that's kind of a saga unto itself. But yeah, I mean, that's why I initially reached out to Manson. I was fascinated by him. I wanted to see his public image was as sort of a screaming maniac. I've often said over the years, if only these repeat killers all look like Charles Manson, we would be a lot better off because we would know to run immediately when we saw him. Unfortunately, almost none of them do come across like Charles Manson. They blend in very well. But I was just interested in investigating Manson basically.

[A]

It's fascinating.

[B]

Yeah, Squeaky Fromm and Sandy Good were almost like super fans of Manson. What did they get out of being so devoted to him?

[C]

You know, that's a good question, Kevin, and I'm not sure I know the answer to it. They both came from middle class backgrounds, highly conflictual relationships with their family members.

[A]

I don't know about you Kevin, but I'm always getting those irritating spam calls.

[B]

It is so annoying.

[A]

There are predatory grifters out there just waiting around trying to steal our money. That's why I'm so grateful for our wonderful sponsor, Cash App. Cash App makes me feel more secure knowing my money is safe.

[B]

The holidays are all about finding the perfect gift, but this time of year, not every deal is actually what it seems. Scammers are getting more creative to trick people into sharing their payment info through methods like fake shopping sites and giveaways that are too good to be true. Luckily, Cash App's 247 fraud monitoring helps detect and alert you for unusual card activity should someone gain access to your card, so you can act fast if something seems off. You can also lock or unlock your Cash App card instantly right in the app for extra control and peace of mind. Stay one step ahead of scams this season and keep your money secure with.

[A]

Cash App for a limited time. Only new Cash App customers can use our exclusive code to earn some additional cash for real. Just download Cash App Use our exclusive referral code secure 10 in your profile. Send $5 to a friend within 14 days and you'll get $10 dropped right into your account. Terms apply. That's money. That's Cash App Cash App is a financial services platform, not a bank. Banking services provided by Cash App's Bank Partners Prepaid debit cards issued by Sutton Bank Member FDIC Promotions provided by Cash App, a Block Inc. Brand. Visit Cash App Legal Podcast for full disclosures. If you had the power to stop a crime before it happened, wouldn't you do it? What if that crime was done against yourself or your own family? Well, with SimpliSafe's home security system, you can stop break ins and burglaries before they even happen.

[B]

The big problem with traditional home security systems is that they react after an intruder is already breaking in or even inside. At that point, it's far too late. Your peace of mind is gone the moment someone intrudes on your space.

[A]

Simplisafe is different. Thanks to their advanced home security technology, AI powered cameras can lock onto potential threats outside. If a prospective intruder approaches live, agents step in to confront the person via a camera. Now the potential bad guys know that someone's watching and also prepare to dispatch police in an instant. The agents can also start blaring sirens and flashing lights.

[B]

We have relied on Simplisafe to keep our homes safe for years. We trust them with our safety. It's great knowing someone is looking out for you and your family. It does wonders for our peace of mind, especially since we've gotten threats in the past over our reporting.

[A]

Simplisafe really does have your back. No hidden fees, no long term contracts, no punishment for canceling at any time. Try it out today. You even get a 60 day money back guarantee this month.

[B]

Only take 50% off any new system. This is one of the best prices you will ever see for SimpliSafe. Don't miss it. Hit simplisafe.com msheet again. That's simplisafe.com msheet and lock in your discount. There is no safe like Simplisafe.

[D]

Wherever you go, whatever they get into, from chill time to everyday adventures, protect your dog from parasites with Cridelio guattro. For full safety information, side effects and warnings, visit cordelioquattrolabel.com consult your vet or call 1-888-545-5973. Ask your vet for Cordelio Cuatro and visit quattrodog.com.

[C]

Manson discovered squeaky from one of his first converts sitting on a curb outside LA weeping. And he intuited that this was a girl who had problems with her, probably with her family. And he was a very astute street psychologist. He, he, he investigated that a little bit and found that he was right. His intuition was correct. And Squeaky thought, who is this guy? Like he landed here from heaven. He understands where I've come from, what my problems are. And he told her. Up in Haight Ashbury in San Francisco, people call me the gardener because I help young people bloom and become like flowers. And she thought, wow, this is an interesting guy. And decided to cast her lot with him. Sandy Good had either completed Kevin or done some significant work toward completing her master's. In English she was, yeah, she was very interested in English. Both of them were very articulate. And I remember when I got my, you know, keep in mind I'm here trying to follow where my curiosity leads me, but wondering, who are these people? You know, are they really the sort of murder crazed people that I've seen in the popular press or are they more complicated than that? And the first letter I got from Squeaky from arrived in floral accented. A floral accented envelope. And I thought, what's this? Opened it up, floral accented, stationary, big loopy writing of a kind that I associate with middle school girls. I'm sure that's unfair, but. So that's what I associated with. And she drew hearts and she said, you know, the love you speak about between Charlie and all of us at the Spahn Ranch was based on harmony and mutual love and communication. And at one point during that letter, she said, charlie didn't do it, Jeff. He is it. And she underlined is and then talked about him as a sort of universal understanding. He's the only one who has the potential to bring about world peace. I'm a 20 year old kid sitting there. What in the hell are you talking about? This guy is a mass murderer and you're saying that he's the only one with the potential to bring about world peace. So that, that startled me and it clashed with a lot of my preconceptions. And, you know, so things went.

[A]

Looking back now, with all of your training and experience in forensic psychology, are there things that, you know, surprise you about how Manson and his followers came across in these letters to you? Yeah.

[C]

One thing that surprised me but shouldn't have was how quickly things escalated with the women. They began with peace, love, harmony and so on. And within about six weeks, you know, I always remember the letter I got from Sandy Good. Her letters were always on pink stationery with red, usually red, sometimes blue, but often red pen. And this letter began, dear Jeff, we're moving out of the realm of words. And I remember thinking, no, the realm of words is the only realm I want to occupy with you. I'm not interested in any different kind of realm. But that was the first warning sign that a shift was really occurring. Up to that point, their references to the murders had all been cryptic, oblique, never direct. But now they got direct. So I got that letter and that freaked me out a little bit. She was prophesying apocalyptic events that were going to occur in Los Angeles. I didn't know what that meant, but it was ominous. And then I got A letter from her, I always remember. It was dated June 30, and it was 16 pages long. And they were obviously eyeing me as a potential recruit. And by this time, they were giving me tasks to do. And they wanted me to call the homes of certain corporate executives who they believed were, you know, involved in polluting the environment. And they wanted me to use a harsh, loud, threatening voice and tell them, manson says. And if they say, who's Manson? Tell them, remember Sharon Tate. And then they said, warn them that a wave of assassins will soon run through their homes and splash blood from room to room. They talked about people getting their arms cut off. They encouraged me to enlist the help of some of my friends if they were willing, as they said, to leave their mommies behind and go out in the forest and kill hunters and then leave signs on the trees saying, there are hunters hunting hunters. And I got this letter, and I just thought, holy crap, now I know I'm way in over my head. I need to look for an exit ramp quickly. And I did. I found one through subterfuge. But I managed to convince them that I had left the address where they had been writing to me, which, incidentally, was the same address of the home occupied by my FBI agent father. I was home for the summer from Purdue, living with my parents. And fortunately, I was working that summer as a temporary postal carrier. So I was usually able to. I'm sure this is a violation of federal law, but I was usually able to intercept the letters at the post office in the morning from Manson and Squeaky, so my parents didn't have to suffer the indignity of reaching in their mailbox and taking out a letter with the attorney address of Charles Manson. But, I mean, a fascinating part of that story. After Squeaky attempted to assassinate Ford two months after I found my exit ramp, the FBI in Sacramento faxed the FBI in Buffalo, where my dad. The Buffalo office where my dad was assigned at the time, and said, we found a cache of letters in Squeaky Fromm's apartment from someone named Jeffrey Smallden, and he's using the same address as Special Agent Jack Smalldon. What's going on here? So. So my dad called him in and said, jack and my dad, you know, tolerant man if ever there was one. He thought I was crazy, but he understood why I was writing these letters, explained it to his boss and. But an awkward situation for him, like.

[A]

Jack, is your son a hippie?

[C]

Well, I said, is. You know, is he on his way to California to join these mad men and Women out there.

[A]

Okay. This was the most stressful part of the book for me. I really enjoyed the book, by the way. But I, I this part, it felt like reading about a horror movie. I knew we were going to interview you, so I knew you didn't get murdered by the Manson family, you know, through this. But I just reading about it, I would, you know, seeing it just get drawn out and more and more ominous and knowing that these women and some of his other followers were certainly out at the time was terrifying. When it comes to the Manson followers and sort of how that has progressed. What are some of the myths, perhaps about Charles Manson himself that you were able to kind of touch upon through corresponding with him, specifically?

[C]

Some of my understanding of the illegitimacy of some of those myths have come over the years. As I've read memoirs. For example, one a couple of years ago from one of his youngest follower, and I read a memoir by Susan Atkins, who was actively involved in the Tate LaBianca murders. And one of the myths that they help explode, help to explode is the one of Manson as the all powerful person who made all the decisions for everyone. They always say, no, he wasn't that powerful. I mean, looking back, we could see the truth, which is that he was a very clever, very savvy career criminal who understood how to manipulate people. But there was nothing magical about his powers. He wasn't this sort of, you know, supernatural leader. Quite to the contrary, he was a career con man. Another myth is that, well, I've already mentioned the myth that he was able to control everyone, but that, you know, that he somehow orchestrated all of these murders to send forward this so called race war, Helter Skelter, that he supposedly dreamed of igniting. And pretty much everyone has said, no, that wasn't true. We were on acid a lot and we listened to the White Album a lot, and he talked about Helter Skelter. And, you know, this is a guy who grew up in prison where he was next door and close friends with members of the Aryan Brotherhood. And so he was a product of that prison environment where racial tensions were extremely high. So he talked about these things all the time as a convict, but his followers saw him as a prophet and believed that they could trigger this race war and then somehow they would follow Manson to the bottomless pit in the desert and so on, and then emerge as leaders after all of the incompetent black revolutionaries had been proven to be incompetent. And they all say, now none of that was really true. I Mean, I've always thought the Helter Skelter theory was bullshit, that that wasn't why these murders were committed. And it turns out that there's a much more pragmatic reason for them that involved drugs and money and Manson's connection to people in the LA underground that don't really involve Helter Skelter at all. And the explosion of the Helter Skelter myth is one of the main things.

[A]

I want to go on to another infamous killer that you corresponded with, and that's Ted Bundy.

[C]

Yeah. Here's the context. My two co workers were killed in December of 1983. In 1984, I decide to begin enroll at Ohio State and begin work toward my PhD. So I begin that in the fall of 1985, and about six months into my graduate studies. I'm still obsessed with the murder of my coworkers. No one has been arrested. Nobody saw anything unusual. They didn't see. I mean, there was one door that served as entrance and exit to this small research lab. No one saw anything unusual. No one unusual entering the lab, no one leaving the lab. Even though it was an extraordinary bloody crime scene, whoever committed these murders had to have been covered in blood somehow. They walked out of there, walked out of the hospital, and no one saw anything. And so I was still obsessing about the hospital was Riverside Methodist Hospital here in Columbus. So I always refer to it as the Riverside Murders. I was still obsessing about the Riverside Murders. And I thought, well, who is there who knows a bit about murder and is known to have committed acts of murder where he basically disappeared? People couldn't believe that, you know, in the 15 minutes between the last time I saw this woman and her destination, she was abducted and killed and no one saw anything. So I thought, well, someone who knows a bit about these things is Ted Bundy, sometimes referred to as a phantom killer because he was so skillful at disappearing from the scenes where he committed most of his crimes. So I decided to write to Bundy, who then was under two separate death sentences on death row in Florida. And I wrote him a long handwritten letter, handwritten because I thought the personal touch might stand a greater chance of interesting him. And he would have known from reading my letter that I knew a lot about his case. I had probably read four books about it or so. And at the end of the letter, I invited him to engage in a dialogue with me. I didn't mention the Riverside murders at all. I figured that could come later if I succeeded in forging some kind of connection with him. Initially, I just wanted him to write back and for us to open a dialogue. And I said at the end of the letter, if you don't answer this letter, you'll never hear from me again. I'm not trying to bother you or, you know, be a nuisance, so it's your choice. And I didn't hear back from him, and I thought, okay, well, that's that. And then a year later, more than a year later, I get an envelope in my mailbox from Ted Bundy on death row in Florida. And it's a fascinating letter. I always bring it up when I talk with people about my book, because even though my correspondence with him really consisted of just this two letter exchange, his letter was so interesting to me. And I took one specific thing from it that helped inform my later interactions with the many repeat killers I dealt with as a forensic psychologist. When he wrote back, he adopted a very professorial tone. Dear Jeffrey, I've just come upon your letter after all this time amongst my papers. I apologize that it's taken me such an inordinately long time to get back to you again. It's sounding like a snooty professor. And then he says, as for all your questions, all I can say is that I found them very thoughtful. And something else very thoughtful. I want you to know that I've never felt better in my life, spiritually, physically, and emotionally. I hope the same can be said for you. And then this is the coup de grace. This is the guy whose signature characteristic was the unbelievable distances that he would travel in search of his victims. It caused the authorities a great deal of difficulty because they couldn't connect these different. He was killing women in Washington, Oregon, Colorado, Utah, and then eventually Florida. So for a long time, the authorities had a hard time tying these cases together. So that just by way of background, here's how Bundy signs off his letter. Take care. Watch yourself, Travel light. Peace, Ted. I remember thinking, what the hell? Nobody signs their letters. Nobody signs off their letters that way. And, you know, I eventually came to see it as you could read that in two ways. On one hand, it could be read as a recipe for how to succeed if you're a predator like me. Always be vigilant, always be watchful, be light, be able to move at a moment's notice, and always be aware of your surroundings. But it can also be viewed as a recipe for how to avoid falling victims. To someone like me, always be careful. Always be ready to move. Know who you're with, and where you are at all times. And I thought on the other end of this letter on death row in Florida, was a guy who thought he was a little more clever than everybody else. And this was his humor, the serial killer's tease, as I came to think of it. I mean, he thought he was cracking a funny joke, and I took it as a sort of perverse compliment that he knew I would get it.

[A]

Yeah. God, that was such a fascinating. And, you know, there's one killer that I can go into this a little bit, and then I want to get into some of your work, you know, working with some of those repeat offenders that you mentioned. But there's one killer that you actually got to meet in person, and that's John Wayne Gacy. And I'm gonna just be honest. He was. Out of all these people, he was probably the one that annoyed me the most because, like, what a. Like the amount of delusion of him talking constantly about how he was framed and all this stuff was going on, and it's like. And, you know, you kept pointing out at different times, like, hey, they found a bunch of bodies in your crawl space. So how'd they manage to frame you on that?

[C]

At that point, he would say, I can't talk about that. My attorneys told me, I can't talk about that.

[A]

Pay no attention. I mean, it was just like, what? But that. That was also a pretty chilling moment because, I mean, you know, he was target men, young men and boys. And so you would be actually more in terms of, like, his victim profile than, you know, someone like Bundy, necessarily. And you end up, you know, alone in a cell with him, talking about this. Tell me about the experience with Gacy.

[C]

Well, readers of my book will know by the time they get to the end of the prologue, which talks about my uncomfortable experience desperately having to pee and having to depend on John Wayne Gacy to tell me how to get to a restroom. But there was no. There were no guards monitoring us at all, as I found out through that incident. And so I knew that I was truly alone with Gacy. One of the chilling moments for me, and I write about this in my book, was I had been writing to Gacy for about seven or eight months by then. Regularly, like every two weeks, he begun calling me on the telephone. I remember one call from him interrupted a family outing to the zoo on a Saturday morning. I had to tell my wife, I'll be there in half an hour. I'm talking to John Wayne Gacy, who just called me, but we talked on the Phone a number of times. And then he said, why don't you come visit me? And the place where he was was 450 miles from where I live. So it was not an insignificant investment of time and energy, a 900 mile round trip. But I decided to do it. And I got there and he had told me to be sure you sign in at the desk up front as a friend. Don't say you're a psychologist, they'll never let you in. I wasn't a psychologist by then. I was still a grad student. And whatever you do, don't tell them you're a journalist because they'll never let you in. Tell them you're my friend. So I did. They let me in. So we go through all these checkpoints and I'm getting a little more nervous with every one of those. Not at all. One of the things I point out in my book, despite my extensive experience over a period of many years working with probably a thousand or more murderers, very violent people, at the time I met Gacy for the first time, I had never before been in the same room with anyone known to have committed even one murder. That's how inexperienced I was. So this was my first time in the same room with someone known to have committed murder. And this person was convicted of killing 33 boys and young men over a period of about seven, seven, eight years. So I didn't know what to expect. And when we get to death row, which the guard escorting me referred to as the condemned unit, he opens the big steel gate that's going to lead me to the area where I'm to meet Gacy in one of the visiting rooms. And he pauses and he said, you've traveled a long way to come here. I assume you know why Mr. Gacy is on our condemned unit. I just want you to know that once you pass through this gate, there will be no institutional staff with you. In fact, there'll be no institutional staff on your side of this gate. Should anything unfortunate happen while you're with Mr. Gacy, including, God forbid, a hostage crisis, there'll be nobody back there to help you. You'll be basically on your own. Do you understand? And I paused a minute. I said yes, because I wasn't going to turn around and drive the 450 miles back to Columbus without doing what I had come there to do. But that increased my anxiety. When Gacy entered the room where I was to meet him, he was, you know, handcuffed, leg, manacles on, and we shook hands and I said, hi, John. He said, hi, Jeff. You can call me. You can call me JW if you want to. That's what most of the guards call me. And he said, I know. I know you're here looking for the monster, but now you're about to meet the man. That's how he talked. Now you're about to meet the man, and you're going to find out he's a normal person, just like you. And my brain is doing somersaults at this point. I'm thinking, what a normal person, just like me. But that's how he began. He wanted to deflate that idea that he was some sort of monster person.

[A]

He reading the book with your experiences with him, he would just go off on these soapbox rants.

[C]

No, it was dreary and boring much of the time. You know, one time, one of my most daring transitions with geese, I had come to know by this time. He was very prickly. Like most narcissists. He didn't do well when he was being challenged at all. So I was usually kind of walking on eggshells and planning my transitions pretty carefully, even though I was young and pretty stupid. But at one point, when he was going on and on about these two men who both had keys to his house and worked for him, and why didn't the police look at David Cram and Michael Rossi? And he was going on and on and on. And I finally said, john, stop. He looked at me like, what do you mean, stop? And I said, I don't want to talk about that anymore. I have a feeling that you could talk about that all day, but I don't want to. So can we now talk about your sexuality? Which I thought was a pretty bold transition, but he said, yeah, let's go.

[A]

It's wild.

[B]

You got letters from so many of these people. Who was the best writer?

[C]

Certainly not Charles Manson. And that's another story. He really struggled to write with his 4th or 5th grade education. I would say that the Manson women that I corresponded with, Susan Atkinson, Squeaky Fromm, Sandy Good, were probably the most articulate Gacy. You know, I mean, Gacy was serviceable, but he was just like his Persona, which was this kind of working class, everyday kind of guy. His writing was that way too kind of pedestrian. Not inarticulate, but not overly articulate either. So I would say the Manson women, probably.

[A]

I do want to ask you, you know, in terms of, like, I imagine there might be different reasons for different individuals, but why do you suppose so many of these. So many of these People did respond to you. And I mean, what were they hoping to get out of that? Is it boredom? Were they trying to use you for something like, did it just depend?

[C]

Well, I think it depended, but yes, I think they wanted to use me. Manson certainly did. The Manson women certainly did. Gacy did, though. Gacy, I mean, I think Gacy sort of saw me as an intellectual equal.

[A]

He.

[C]

He thought he was a very smart guy. And he thought this guy, in addition to falling within my elastic victim age group, this is a little spooky. His age group was roughly like 16 to 27. Say I was 32 at the time I went to see him. And after the first time, he writes me, gee, Jeff, you looked a lot younger than I thought you would be, which to me meant falling right within his age group. And it's a little, you know, it's a little strange to walk away from two days with someone like that knowing you've probably become his newest fantasy object. And for Gacy, fantasy involves sexual torture and murder. So there's that. But Gacy also wanted me to buy his paintings. He was savvy enough to know he shouldn't come across as a hard sell kind of guy, but he wanted me to buy them. And this is a funny little part of the Gacy story. Gacy says, jeff, you would do very well to purchase some of these paintings at the low prices I'm listing them for right now because they are going to dramatically appreciate over time. Here's this guy who, as it turns out, is, you know, about five years away from his execution, and he says, I'm not a real artist, but, you know, I have my style, just like Michelangelo and da Vinci had theirs. I mean, the grandiosity was just startling. And he said, you want. You want to purchase some of these paintings because they are really going to appreciate in value. And I have three Gacy paintings. Two of them I bought for $30 each. The third one he gifted me, and recently I, just to test the market, put pictures of three of those on one of these murderabilia websites on Facebook. And I had an immediate offer of $8,000 for the three of them. So Gacy was right. His. His artwork was gonna appreciate dramatically in value.

[A]

That is so startling. Oh, my God. I do wanna ask you, you mentioned, you know, like, you re. You realize on some level that Gacy's probably fantasizing about killing you with. With all of these correspondences, was there. Was there any sort of, like, in terms of your own mental health and well being, was there any Sort of downside to that, or how did you manage that, if there was.

[C]

Yeah, it's a good question. I think at a pretty early point along my journey toward becoming a forensic psychologist, I became pretty good at compartmentalizing. And I don't know if my abilities in that area point to something unhealthy about my own personality that I was able. You know, I spent my career looking at just unimaginably horrific crime scene photos and talking with defendants about doing the most, you know, astonishingly horrible things to other human beings. But I had a wife and two young kids at home, and I had to be able to engage with that horrible material at work. Or I couldn't do my job, but at the same time, I couldn't take that stuff home with me. And I didn't typically have nightmares about the cases I worked on. Sometimes I would talk at home with my wife about the people I had just spent my day with. But I became pretty good at kind of putting that in a file in the back of my brain.

[B]

I imagine that a lot of people listening to our discussion might now be interested in themselves writing letters to some notorious criminals. And so I wonder, first of all, would you recommend that? And secondly, if they did do that, what tips would you give them?

[C]

I would not recommend that, though. It was a fruitful line of inquiry for me as a young man, first with Manson et al, because I was just so inexperienced and curious, and I made a leap to try and engage with these people. But then later with Bundy and Gacy and Donald Harvey, a medical serial killer who pled guilty to 37 murders. I believe with those people, I was interested in learning. I was interested in securing information as a result of my contacts with them that would help me once I became a forensic psychologist. So I was very much in learning mode during that period. But in terms of, you know, most of these people are extraordinary liars. You can't really believe most of what they say. They're very skillful at maintaining their carefully curated public Persona, so they're not really who they present themselves as being. And they're dangerous, some of them. I realized, looking back that I should have been much more cautious than I was during the time I spent with Gacy. At one point, Gacy invited me over to his side of the table because he wanted to show me some photo albums. And I remember thinking at the time, I don't think this is a good idea, but I don't want to communicate fear. So I did it. I went over and sat next to him and positioned my feet in a way that I thought would allow me a quick getaway if I needed one. But you know, Gacy had handcuffs on, but it wouldn't have been difficult for him to place those over my head and squeeze around my neck. And I really wasn't thinking in those terms at the time. But later, and I write about this in my book, when I read a book called the Last Victim by a guy named Jason Moss, who clearly met with Gacy in the same room where I did. The description is very obvious. The difference is he met with Gacy shortly before Gacy's execution, at a time when Gacy would have seen that he had nothing left to lose. And Gacy's treatment of him was very threatening, verbally, emotionally and physically. And I realized looking back, that could have been me. The difference is at the time I made two separate trips to see Gacy. But at the times when I saw Gacy, he still had some hope of his death sentence being overturned on appeal. So he was on his best behavior, unlike when this Jason Moss went to see him. So I would recommend against writing these people. I mean, I, I'm no one to say don't do it because I did it. And if people want to try, I was, I was resourceful in terms of locating these people. And I think, you know, not just with these notorious killers who I engaged with, but during my entire career as a forensic psychologist. If, you know, if I had one characteristic that sort of defined my approach to dealing with these people, it was to try and establish a horizontal plane for our communications. I never wanted to come across as an expert talking down to them. I always introduced myself as Jeff, something that a lot of my colleagues in the field of forensic psychologists would disagree with. But it worked for me. Right after I introduced myself as Jeff and shook hands, I would give them my business card so they knew I had my PhD that I didn't need to tell them that. But I thought I always approached them with an attitude of non judgmental respect. And that was quite aside from my understanding of the horrible things they had likely done. I knew if I wanted them to be willing to open up and talk with me, I needed to create a space where they felt respected. And that's what I tried to accomplish.

[A]

You mentioned some of these other criminals that you had interactions with and testifying at around 300 capital cases and analyzing some of these killers who have been, who are maybe facing death sentences. I'm wondering, can you talk about any sort of like generalities that you observed in Some of these cases or like, types of people that you would find in those situations where they're facing the death penalty and just like learnings from that experience of doing so many of those cases.

[C]

Yeah, I can, though, I can't. I can't give one generalization or two that would apply to all of them. But some of those people knew that they had no way out and feared the death penalty. And those people tended to be very compliant because they saw me with someone whose testimony at the sentencing phase of their trial had the potential to help them. So they wanted to make a positive impression and they wanted to be cooperative. There were others facing the same situation who raged against their predicament and were very angry and in need of settling down. That was part of the challenge that I brought into my meetings with some of those people. So those were two different kinds of defendant responses to the predicament of facing a death penalty. Two of the characteristics of very violent people that I cite as present in a lot of the cases, most of the cases. One is a radical absence of the capacity for empathy. And people have a difficult time understanding what that looks like in our day to day lives. The people that we interact with. We might say, you know, that that guy's got a callous side, or, you know, he seems dismissive even of people in obvious distress. But with these killers, sometimes it's so extreme that people have a hard time imagining it. One example was with Gacy. One day when I was meeting with him, he had brought out a painting of the seven dwarfs from Snow White. And in the lower left hand corner was a shovel. And this was basically depicting the dwarfs and the mine. And this is a guy who had 26 bodies buried under his house in suburban Chicago. And one day he positioned his hands as though he was fanning out a deck of cards, and he said, you know what, Jeff? I've got pictures of all 33 of those kids who they say I killed back in my cell. And I look at those kids and I think they are no more real to me than any sort of. Paused as though he wasn't sure how to finish the sentence. And then he settled on the image of these cartoon characters in the painting leaning against the wall. And he said, then those cartoon characters in that painting. And I remember at the time thinking, that might be the first true thing this man has said all day, that his victims meant no more to him than those cartoon characters. Another serial killer who I worked with as a forensic psychologist murdered at least five victims in eastern Ohio. And when A journalist asked him at around the time of his plea hearing. You know, when you're in your cell, do you think of those people you killed? Do you think of their families and think about the impact you had? And. And he looked at the interviewer like she was from Mars. And he said, no, not really. I. I don't think of them as individuals. I think of them as a group. So, I mean, he was that detached from sort of the individual trauma and that he had caused the families of these victims. So that's one. The other one is the extraordinary narcissism. You know, how. And by malignant narcissism, I'm not referring to egocentricity or mild arrogance. I'm referring to true clinical, pathological narcissism, where everything revolves around them. Eventually everything comes back to them. Their preferences, their thoughts, their ideas, their opinions. They have grandiose fantasies. They don't deal well with criticism. And that narcissism was present in most of the death penalty defendants who I worked with.

[A]

It's fascinating. There was one little tidbit that we picked up on sort of at the end of the book that you sort of just casually mentioned. And, you know, we were just wondering if you could tell us anything more about this. You reference going back to your dad, a kidnapping case that he was involved in that kind of had a profound impact on you. Is there anything you could tell us about that?

[C]

Yeah, I'll just very briefly allude to it. The kidnapping occurred in 1966. I was 12. And at the time, it set in motion the largest manhunt in United States history. It was a young woman who was in rural western Pennsylvania who was kidnapped just after exiting her school bus in front of her siblings. They were walking to their home up the gravel road, and a man was hiding behind the trees with a mask on and said, I want her, and kidnapped this girl and kept her for. I don't remember the exact period of time, but a number of days in the forests of western Pennsylvania. The reason I was aware of it, I wouldn't have been really paying attention to the news at the time, But I remember overhearing a conversation with my parents during the time when she was kidnapped. As it turned out, her kidnapper killed an FBI agent who was a very close friend of my dad's. And I remember for the first time realizing my dad could get killed because of his job. And it changed my way of thinking about his work. For me, it made me more on edge, more wary, more anxious for him. And so that's one reason why that case was important to me. Another reason is that many years later, after I retired from my career as a forensic psychologist, I sought out that woman, Peggy Ann Bradnick, and went and spent time with her in Pennsylvania. And it was weird, you know, she was in her 70s at the time, and I was in my late 60s when I met her. But it was a cool kind of making ends meet when I finally sought her out and met her and talked with her about her experience.

[A]

One thing that I noted from the book was you talk a little bit about how sometimes, you know, you're certainly interested in the killers and the offenders and what they're doing, but you also have kind of a fascination with how. What you describe as, like, the social audience of these crimes, how we all react to that, and how people become obsessed with the killers and these morbid crimes. You know, in. In your. In your years of experience with your career, do you. Do you have an answer as to why we are. Why many of us are so interested in these crimes?

[C]

Not a parsimonious one, but your. Your questions are so good because they, they really do strike at the heart of some of the things I'm most interested in, that being one of them. I've often told people over the years I was fascinated in the psychology, particularly of repeat killers, but I was always mainly interested in the complicated dynamic between members of the social audience and the people who commit these horrible crimes. It's truism by now to note the obsession with true crime that exists in our culture. And, you know, people, despite. They're not killers themselves, and they're not going to be, but they're very interested in the people who commit these crimes, very interested in learning as much as they can following the police procedurals and so on, and in many cases, sort of functioning the role as amateur detective, trying to figure out themselves what happened in this case. You know, I. I'm interested in the moral quandary, and I raise it particularly in the one chapter of my book about serial killer Thomas Lee Dillon, where I won't go into the details, but I describe a situation where I was wishing for an outcome that might very well result in the deaths of more people. And I thought, what does this say about you that you're actually wishing for an outcome, that outcome being my appearance on 60 Minutes, even though wishing for that outcome might mean that the person out there committing these murders that the authorities are interested in might continue killing people, because in that case, if the authorities had caught him, that would mean my segment of 60 Minutes would immediately get quashed. And it really bothered me. And I thought, is this an ethical quandary that journalists have to deal with all the time? Like hoping this case remains unsolved for a while? Because I'm working this story and I have some unique angles. So I don't really want it to get resolved even though people are being killed. And I thought, does that just go along with the job? Is that something all journalists who cover those sorts of things just learn to live with? But it bothered me at the time when I found myself in that situation. And then, and at other points throughout my book, I raise questions about, you know, who are they? Who are these people who we tend to other but who are endless sources of fascination to us and who are we and what complications arise when we attempt to draw bold lines separating those people from the rest of us?

[A]

Yeah, I thought that portion was so fascinating and so well stated. I know, you know, from journalism, coming from a journalism background, there is a tendency to, you know, for journalists who want the most interesting story or to want things to keep going because it's getting ratings. Right. So there can be adverse incentives to, to some of these things. But I think for everyone who's interested, I mean, we've seen that in just true crime followers, it's not just journalists. We've seen cases where people don't really want to let go of the case. They want to keep theorizing, keep having fun with it, keep connecting with people in this community that they've formed over it. And you can understand why that is perhaps. But at the end of the day, it's basically like hoping a case goes on forever. And it's, it's definitely some adverse incentives there.

[C]

But a good example I only cited briefly is this case of serial killer Thomas Lee Dillon in Ohio, which is, was the highest publicity case in, in my 30 some years in Ohio. But I know that the journalists who were feverishly covering this sniper who, you know, his crimes were spread out across time. The people feverishly covering that case did not want it to come to an end. They didn't want the person killing these murders to get arrested. They saw it as a career launching investigation for them.

[A]

Yeah. And I think, I think awareness of, of, of that is probably half the battle. Right. We can all, we can all say, oh yeah, like I want to keep going with this. And then you just have to pause and sort of check yourself and say, okay, but do I really want that? And that. I think some people just do things that they're not even aware of and that, that lightly you hope that the.

[C]

Majority of them would check themselves, as you say.

[A]

Well, sometimes you don't really have an incentive to in journalism, in fairness. But, but yeah, no, this is, this has been great. We've had a blast talking to you.

[B]

Thank you so much.

[A]

I want to say to our listeners, there's so much we didn't get to about this book. You get into more, even more depth on the Riverside murders and the kind of shocking ending to that. You get into all of these different killers and your learnings from them. So we really only skimmed the surface here and I would really strongly encourage everyone to read this. You know, I was actually reading recently Signature Killers by Robert Keppel, who is the detective who hunted Ted Bundy and the Green River Killer, Gary Ridgeway. And he was talking about, you know, to your point, about what separates us from the quote unquote monsters. And his theory was more that we all exist on a continuum and the thing that maybe separates a highly dysfunctional person from a killer is choices. So I thought that was very interesting. Yeah, about that.

[C]

I mean, at some point, most of these serial killers make a career choice. It becomes the choice that defines their mental life, how they organize other aspects of their, their lives. They, they, they decide to become involved in this cat and mouse game with authorities. And it's the most thrilling period in their lives while they're killing and trying to evade capture. It's stimulating. They're ambitious. They want to show that they're more intelligent than the authorities. Tom Dillon always used to say, you know, I don't really know why I committed these murders. I just, I'd go out in my truck on the weekends, have a couple beers, come upon somebody, and I just take my rifle out and blow them away. And then I just go back to living my life like nothing happened. And I just thought, no, that's. None of that is true. This period, this three year period when you were killing these people was the most interesting, stimulating period of your life. You were thinking about killing all the time. Incidentally, Anya, this Thomas Lee Dillon was a graduate of Ohio State's journalism school. Super bright guy, like 145 IQ. So he was very interested in hitting himself against the authorities. And he couldn't imagine ever getting captured unless he made a mistake, which he eventually did. And he made much of the fact they never ever could have caught me if I hadn't screwed up.

[A]

That is so wild. I, I don't. So again, I encourage everyone to read that Beast was Not me. It's great. You can. I imagine where, where can people get the book?

[C]

It's available obviously through Amazon, Barnes and Noble. Really through. I encourage people to, if you're independent bookstore doesn't carry it, order it through them and encourage them to stock it on their shelves. But it's really widely available. It's easy to obtain.

[A]

Absolutely. But yeah, agreed. About the independent bookstores, is there anything we didn't ask you about that you wanted to mention or you think it's important for people to know about about any of the topics or killers we discussed or the book in general?

[C]

The only thing I'll mention is that I eventually became a forensic psychologist and before that I was communicating with Charles Manson and all these people. So what kind of person is this Jeff Smalldon character? And I would only mention that when I was much younger I was the kid who was kind of obsessed with roller derby and obsessed with the people who performed at the sideshow in the county fair every summer. Was interested in all kinds of crime cases, very interested in snake handling culture. So from a very early age I was interested in outliers of every conceivable kind. And then that eventually morphed into a career in forensic psychology and a pretty.

[A]

Cool career at that. So thank you so much for sharing your insight and expertise with us today. We really appreciate it.

[C]

Thank you you so much for having me. And thank you for asking such well informed, penetrating questions. I enjoyed it a lot.

[A]

Thanks so much to Jeff. We really enjoyed getting to talk with him. This book is terrific. You all should read it. We love getting to learn more about his interactions with these infamous figures. Check it out and tell your friends we'll include links in our show notes.

[B]

Thanks so much for listening to the Murder Sheet. If you have a tip concerning one of the cases we cover, please email [e-mail] if you have actionable information about an unsolved crime, please report it to the appropriate authorities.

[A]

If you're interested in joining our Patreon, that's available at www.patreon.com murdersheet if you want to tip us a bit of money for records requests, you can do so at www.buymeacoffee.com murdersheet. We very much appreciate any support.

[B]

Special thanks to Kevin Tyler Greenlee, who composed the music for the Murder Sheet and who you can find on the [e-mail] if you're looking to talk with.

[A]

Other listeners about a case we've covered, you can join the Murder Sheet discussion group on Facebook. We mostly focus our time on research and reporting, so we're not on social media much. We do try to check our email account, but we ask for patience as we often receive a lot of messages. Thanks again for listening. We've run into some pretty creepy people in our true crime journey and we've even gotten some threats as a result. Safety is often top of mind for Kevin and I.

[B]

That's why we trust our long term sponsor, SimpliSafe. SimpliSafe is a home security system that's both innovative and proactive. They're not just about sounding the alarm when someone breaks through your front door. They seek to prevent the break in from even happening. We've used them for years. The reason is the peace of mind they give us every day right now. Murder Sheet listeners can save 50% on a SimpliSafe home security system just go to simplisafe.com msheet SimpliSafe deploys so many.

[A]

Technologies and techniques to keep you safe. I'm talking about AI powered cameras. Not to mention they're always looking out for you. Professional monitoring agents are on hand to intervene in real time. They'll switch on the two way audio to confront possible prowlers. Start blaring sirens and spotlights to get rid of them.

[B]

Simplisafe is great for renters and homeowners alike. You can customize your approach to home security. They've got lots of different options, but one constant is that you don't need to sign a long term contract. Between that and your 60 day money back guarantee, it's a cinch. Try out SimpliSafe today.

[A]

Right now my listeners can save 50% on a SimpliSafe home security system at simplisafe.com msheet that's simplisafe.com msheet there's no safe like Simplisafe.

[D]

Shopify's point of sale system helps you sell at every stage of your business. Need a fast and secure way to take payments in person? We've got you covered. How about card readers? You can rely on anywhere you sell.

[A]

Thanks.

[D]

Have a good one. Yep, that too. Want one place to manage all your online and in person sales? That's kind of our thing wherever you sell. Businesses that grow quarters grow with Shopify. Sign up for your $1 a month trial at Shopify. Com. Listen Shopify. Com Listen.