Murder Sheet Podcast

Episode: "Serial Killers and Pen Pals: A Conversation with Forensic Psychologist Jeff Smalldon on His Correspondences with Charles Manson, Ted Bundy, John Wayne Gacy, and More"

Date: December 2, 2025
Host(s): Áine Cain and Kevin Greenlee
Guest: Dr. Jeff Smalldon, forensic psychologist and author of That Beast Was Not Me: One Forensic Psychologist, Five Decades of Conversations with Killers

Episode Overview

This episode delves into the remarkable, chilling, and sometimes darkly comical experiences of Dr. Jeff Smalldon, a forensic psychologist who began writing to infamous killers while still a college student. Hosts Áine Cain and Kevin Greenlee explore Smalldon's correspondences—and sometimes in-person encounters—with Charles Manson, Ted Bundy, John Wayne Gacy, and others. Drawing on stories from his book, Dr. Smalldon provides a first-hand account of why these criminals write back, the psychology behind their communications, and what society’s fascination with these murderers says about all of us.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Dr. Jeff Smalldon’s Unorthodox Journey into Forensic Psychology (06:41 – 11:49)

• Raised by an old-school FBI agent, Smalldon became fascinated by crime early on.
• His initial obsession was with the Lincoln assassination conspirators.
• Smalldon’s path to forensic psychology was winding:
  • He considered becoming an English professor, studied literature in Ireland, then moved into hospital administration (06:41).
  • After two coworkers were brutally murdered at his hospital, his interest in the criminal mind was reignited, prompting his psychology PhD.
• Quote:

  "I took a very non linear path...some of my earliest entanglements with notorious killers occurred. The thought of becoming a forensic psychologist had never even entered my mind."
  — Dr. Jeff Smalldon (06:41)

2. Origins of the Pen Pal Correspondences (11:49 – 12:31; 15:35 – 22:36)

• At his professor's suggestion, Smalldon wrote to Manson and key Manson Family members. Nearly all replied.
• He maintained correspondences with Manson, Lynette "Squeaky" Fromm, Susan Atkins, and even Ted Bundy and John Wayne Gacy.
• Quote:

  "I was fascinated by [Manson]. I wanted to see if his public image was as sort of a screaming maniac…"
  — Dr. Jeff Smalldon (12:31)

3. The Allure and Reality of Charles Manson and His Followers

• Manson’s charisma and how he manipulated vulnerable followers (15:46 – 22:36)
  • Fromm and Sandy Good saw Manson as a savior-type figure.
  • The women’s early letters were filled with flowery, peace-and-love language which quickly escalated to apocalyptic and even violent overtones.

• Notable moment where Fromm and Good actively tried to recruit Smalldon into their cause:

  "We're moving out of the realm of words…warn them that a wave of assassins will soon run through their homes and splash blood from room to room."
  — Letter from Sandy Good, recalled by Dr. Jeff Smalldon (22:50)

• Smalldon narrowly escaped further involvement by subterfuge, just weeks before Fromm’s assassination attempt on President Ford.
• Quote:

  "I need to look for an exit ramp quickly. And I did. I found one through subterfuge."
  — Dr. Jeff Smalldon (22:50)

4. Myths About Manson and the Psychology of His Followers (28:00 – 31:03)

• Smalldon, referencing memoirs from Manson followers, debunks the myth of Manson as an omnipotent puppet master.
• The infamous Helter Skelter theory was more the product of drug-fueled groupthink and less an orchestrated plan.

• "He was a very clever, very savvy career criminal who understood how to manipulate people. But there was nothing magical about his powers..."
  — Dr. Jeff Smalldon (28:00)

5. Correspondence with Ted Bundy: The Serial Killer’s Tease (31:03 – 37:20)

• Smalldon wrote to Bundy hoping for insights for a case that haunted him.
• Bundy responded after more than a year, with a letter marked by condescension and a chilling sign-off:

• "Take care. Watch yourself. Travel light. Peace, Ted."
  — Ted Bundy, via Dr. Jeff Smalldon (approx. 36:50)

• Smalldon interprets Bundy's cryptic closing as a disturbing “joke"—both practical advice for predators, and implicit warning for potential victims.

6. Meeting John Wayne Gacy: Alone with a Monster (37:20 – 47:57)

• Smalldon describes his nerve-wracking, isolated experiences interviewing John Wayne Gacy in prison.
• He notes Gacy’s narcissism and repeated, delusional insistence on his innocence—even when confronted with overwhelming evidence.
• Notable Quote:

  "I know you're here looking for the monster, but now you're about to meet the man, and you're going to find out he's a normal person, just like you."
  — John Wayne Gacy, recalled by Dr. Jeff Smalldon (38:27)

• Gacy persistently tried to sell Smalldon his paintings, forecasting their value would rise. Years later, this proved true.

7. The Dangerous Dance: What Killers Want from Correspondents (45:02 – 47:57)

• Smalldon believes most respond because they see a chance to use the correspondent—for attention, validation, or other advantages.
• "Manson certainly did. The Manson women certainly did. Gacy did, though...I think Gacy sort of saw me as an intellectual equal." (45:19)
• Gacy’s evaluation of Smalldon as a potential victim is especially chilling:

• "It's a little strange to walk away from two days with someone like that knowing you've probably become his newest fantasy object. And for Gacy, fantasy involves sexual torture and murder."
  — Dr. Jeff Smalldon (45:39)

8. Mental Health and Coping Strategies (47:57 – 49:38)

• Smalldon describes the necessity of compartmentalization to protect his well-being, given regular exposure to horrific material and dangerous people.

9. Should Listeners Write Serial Killers? Advice and Warnings (49:38 – 54:20)

• Smalldon does not recommend the public correspond with convicted serial killers. He notes their manipulativeness, capacity for deception, and personal risk.
• Describes techniques for establishing a rapport as a professional, advocating respect but non-judgemental engagement.

10. Profile of Death Row Killers: Empathy Deficit and Malignant Narcissism (54:20 – 59:28)

• Shares clinical insights:
  • Many exhibit an "absence of the capacity for empathy."
  • Malignant narcissism is common: "everything revolves around them."
• Example: Gacy kept photos of his victims but regarded them as "no more real...than those cartoon characters in that painting." (54:54)

11. Impact of Crime on Smalldon’s Family and Early Life (59:28 – 62:03)

• Shares a formative story about his father's involvement in the 1966 Peggy Ann Bradnick kidnapping, instilling both fear and fascination with crime.

12. Why Are We So Obsessed with Serial Killers? (62:03 – 67:28)

• Smalldon discusses society’s true crime fixation, including ethical dilemmas for journalists and audiences who follow unsolved cases.

• "I've often told people over the years I was fascinated in the psychology, particularly of repeat killers, but I was always mainly interested in the complicated dynamic between members of the social audience and the people who commit these horrible crimes."
  — Dr. Jeff Smalldon (62:36)

Notable Quotes

• On Manson’s Manipulation:
  "Up in Haight Ashbury in San Francisco, people call me the gardener because I help young people bloom and become like flowers." (19:44)
• On Gacy's Delusion:
  "I'm not a real artist, but, you know, I have my style, just like Michelangelo and da Vinci had theirs." (45:39)
• On Empathy Deficit:
  "I look at those kids, and I think they are no more real to me than any...than those cartoon characters in that painting." (54:54)
• Journalistic Quandaries:
  "I describe a situation where I was wishing for an outcome that might very well result in the deaths of more people ... what does this say about you that you're actually wishing for an outcome...my segment of 60 Minutes." (62:36)

Timestamps: Important Segments

• 06:41: Smalldon discusses his journey to forensic psychology and early brush with notorious killers.
• 12:31: On the Manson Family’s appeal, charisma, and Smalldon’s first correspondences.
• 22:50: Escalation with Manson’s followers and their apocalyptic letters.
• 28:00: Debunking Manson as all-powerful/mastermind; the realities of Helter Skelter.
• 36:50: Bundy’s response and the sinister “serial killer’s tease.”
• 38:27: Smalldon's jailhouse encounter with Gacy, dangers of being alone with a killer.
• 45:39: Gacy evaluates Smalldon as a fantasy object; the economics of murderabilia.
• 49:56: Smalldon cautions listeners against writing to notorious killers.
• 54:54: Psychological traits common among death row murderers.
• 62:36: Societal fascination with killers and the ethical dilemmas for journalists and true crime followers.

Memorable Moments

• Smalldon intercepting Manson’s letters before his FBI father could see them, worried about parental embarrassment. (22:50)
• Gacy’s gloating over his paintings’ future value, and Smalldon confirming Gacy was right (45:39).
• Smalldon's admission that many years in, compartmentalization was both a shield and a potential personal red flag (48:18).

Tone & Takeaways

The conversation maintains a thoughtful, sometimes wry tone, balancing grave subject matter with clear-eyed candor. Dr. Smalldon speaks with humility and warns repeatedly of the dangers—psychological and otherwise—of treating serial killers as just another curiosity. The hosts blend empathy and fascination, asking direct questions and highlighting the ethical complications at the heart of true crime storytelling.

Further Exploration

Book Plug:
That Beast Was Not Me: One Forensic Psychologist, Five Decades of Conversations with Killers by Dr. Jeff Smalldon is available widely (Amazon, Barnes & Noble, indie bookstores upon request).

For listeners seeking a deep, reflective, and at times chilling look into the true crime psyche—both of killers and those who study them—this episode offers unparalleled access and insight, with just enough personal anecdotes to remind us all of the stakes involved.