B (2:58)

And I think that's really an important point to note, because often the people who listen to podcasts really, for lack of a better word, you're so serious about the subject, you know how to think about it, you know how to approach it, and you know how to analyze what you see. And, oh, this is missing. This isn't missing. And the more general audience is more likely to be swayed by something they see in a documentary.

A (3:25)

And that's not a knock to the general audience. And also, yes, Kevin is calling you guys, all the elites. And the murder sheet listeners are the elites of the elites, basically.

B (3:32)

Right? That goes without saying.

A (3:34)

It goes without saying. But with the general audience, you know, if I watched a docu series on sports, on a sport that I was unfamiliar with, you know, I don't really know that much about football, you know, I might come away thinking, oh, well, here's my opinion on that team, or here's my opinion on that player. And a true football fan would be able to go and say, hey, that they left this out, or they, you know, they twisted this. So that's where I think it's helpful for us to critically analyze documentaries and docu series, because, frankly, they have an immense power to inform and misinform. And I think, you know, that with that power, I think we need to look at it pretty carefully. And I, I honestly, I've had concerns about certain projects in recent years, and just, you know, you know, you get the Netflix series or the Hulu series or the Peacock series, and then, you know, the. The traditional media follows, they're all covering it, and it just sort of, if you're putting garbage into the environment that kind of, you know, that can kind of go downstream. And even if it's not garbage, even if there's some merit to projects, sometimes they can still put out stuff that's perhaps less than ideal, less than responsible, and I think it deserves a. A look. So I've always wanted to start this series called Spin Docs, and that's where we'd go and sort of critically analyze different docu series or documentary projects and sort of look at them with a more critical eye and look at how are they putting this story together, who are they talking to, how do they portray the case? What are they not mentioning? And. And have that be a place where we can have some interesting discussions around that. And the first one that really sparked me to do this was the 2025 three part docu series from Netflix called Amy Bradley is Missing. This is about a disappearance on a cruise ship. And this one, after seeing this, I was like, we have to, we have to start doing this project because it's a. I feel like it's necessary to have some kind of conversation about some of these things. But yeah. Without further ado, let's get started on our first episode of Spindocs. My name is Anya Cain. I'm a journalist.

B (5:49)

And I'm Kevin Greenlee. I'm an attorney.

A (5:52)

And this is the Murder Sheet.

B (5:54)

We're a true crime podcast focused on original reporting, interviews and deep dives into murder cases.

A (6:00)

We're the Murder Sheet and this is Spindocs. Amy Bradley is missing 2020.

B (6:53)

I think it's probably important to start off with a couple of disclaimers. Needless to say, our hearts go out to Amy Bradley's friends and families. This is an unimaginable situation. I can't imagine what this was like to be on a vacation cruise with your daughter, having a great fun time, and then suddenly she's gone and your life is turned upside down. I can't imagine what it's like to be friends with someone who goes off on vacation and just never comes back. It's a terrible tragedy.

A (7:34)

I really appreciate you saying that, Kevin. I think it's really important to stress because we are our show, we try to be thoughtful about how we talk about victims and their families. We try to be thoughtful. I think everyone in True Crime should try to be thoughtful about that and try to be as humane and sympathetic as possible. Not, you know, we're gonna fall short, everyone's gonna fall short, but that should be the goal. But I, I think it's the reason why the cases like this are difficult to talk about is because it's been very clear from social media and from statements and from advocacy over the years that the family has a very specific theory of what happened to Amy. And we are going to strongly contradict that in this episode. But that doesn't mean that we think that they deserve abuse or hate or, you know, we think they're dumb or stupid or we're calling them out. No, these people have been through the unimaginable. They're grief stricken. And it's very clear to me from having watched this docu series that they love Amy dearly and they continue to. And they're holding on to hope and us. Contradicting perhaps their favorite theory does not mean that we wish them ill. It does not mean that we think they're bad. It's not a criticism. I do think sometimes we need to figure out in true crime how we can have conversations where there's a disagreement or there's a. I think the family may be wrong about this. I think this perhaps was an accidental death rather than a murder or whatnot or an abduction or whatever, without it devolving into name calling or, you know, fighting because they're entitled to their opinions. But at the same time, I think the truth is important. Other people in this case have been subjected to decades of accusations and, you know, insinuations and their lives have been disrupted and personally, I think they've been victimized by this situation too, and they don't deserve that. And in addition to that, I think sometimes when you have people who are clinging to hope, that can be a very cruel thing. Especially when there is no hope. And perhaps when hope is lost, some form of healing can begin. So it's not kind to victims, families to sort of just be a yes man, be a sycophant. Oh yeah, you're totally right. I think sometimes hard truths need to be spoken, even if it's something people disagree with. And again, they're free to disagree with it, they're free to do whatever they want. But at the end of the day, I think this is a, this is a kind of a tragedy that compounded in on itself because I feel like nobody was willing to say this is not realistic. This is actually very unrealistic. And I have concerns, maybe people were saying that, I don't know, but I mean the feeling I have is that no one was sort of pumping the brakes here and looking at it. So again, hopefully that disclaimer helps inform the rest of this episode. And again, my heart does break for the Bradleys. I think if any of us were in a sudden situation like this, you know, there but for the grace of God go I.

B (10:57)

Right, right.

A (10:59)

So the first part of this Spin Docs episode is we're going to just look a little bit at our central figures and those are namely Amy Bradley and her family. The Bradley family. So Amy, in 1998 when she went missing, was a 23 year old young woman from Chesterfield, Virginia. By all accounts charismatic, fun loving, athletic, magnetic, just a, just a cool person to be around. You can kind of see that in some of the video footage we see of her, she attended Longwood University on a scholarship. She's one of the, I think maybe the first female athlete to do so. Longwood University is in Farmville, Virginia. And you know, in 1998, she has a new job, she's got a new apartment, she's got a new adopted dog. And she's giving off the impression that she's very excited for this upcoming trip with her family, a family cruise. And her family were, were is Ronald Sr. Bradley. So that's the dad, Iva Bradley the mom, and then Ronald Jr. Or Brad. So it's Brad Bradley, but his real name is Ronald Jr. So. And she's 23, as I mentioned, and Brad is 21. Iva and Ronald Sr. Were insurance employees at Illinois Mutual. And they're very close, very close family people are very adamant. They're extremely close, fun loving, just kind of giving off the impression of like the perfect family. Like the kind of fun loving, cool, close family that, you know, you know, people from the outside would be like, oh man, that's, that's awesome. And that. So that's the kind of setting for this, this cruise. And let's go over just a couple of things. Cause the docu series kind of builds this all out over time. But I just want to kind of get a couple things out there about Amy that makes sense so we can kind of go into this knowing what the context was. As I mentioned, she was a star basketball player, full scholarship. She's not a big person, but she's, she's tough. I mean, she's strong, she's athletic. And she became known as, you know, amongst her friend groups. She's a drinker. She could handle her alcohol, according to them, but she did drink a lot. And you know, I think that's important to note. I mean, I, I, I, I coming into this from the perspective of being a recovering alcoholic. You know, I'm sure in certain contexts people would see me and they were like, they'd be like, melania can, can drink a lot, but she can handle it. I wasn't really handling it. Cause I was, you know, doing it too much and it got out of control. But, you know, that's always gonna be a red flag. But at the same time, it's a, it's a red flag for me. But again, that's my, my perspective. When you're in your early 20s, some people drink a lot and then they don't drink a lot as they get older. So I'm not saying I don't Think we have enough information to say she had a problem. It's just that people didn't note that. And some of her friends said that they felt she, at times maybe were using alcohol to numb her feelings, which, again, is a sign that something's wrong. If someone's drinking socially and having a good time, great. That's. That's probably fine. If someone's using alcohol to do something else, that's, you know, probably not a great sign. But anyways, she's also a smoker. She smoked Marlboro Lights and Miller, and she drank Miller Light. According to her brother, nobody who knew her thought that she had anything to do with drugs. Stuff can happen without people knowing about it, but that was people's impression. Now, in terms of her sexuality, this is something that's pretty important. Amy was described by her friends as a lesbian. She came out to her friends in college and her friends accepted that her sexuality. And she had a number of girlfriends. When she disclosed her relationship with a woman named Kat Lovelace to her family, her parents specifically, they were not happy. That's. That's how it's described in the docu series. They said they were surprised. Ronald Senior reacted by writing a three page letter outlining all the ways he was disappointed. So that's, that's obviously a pretty big deal.

B (15:24)

Yeah. And I imagine if you were Amy Bradley and you got a letter like that from someone you loved, it would.

A (15:33)

Be disappointing and hurtful, maybe even devastating, because it seemed like she was so close with her family. Just from what was described, someone who's that close with their family, someone who values their family that much, they don't want to disappoint their family. They don't want to be the person who's being kind of singled out as kind of the disappointment. They want to impress their family. They want to have that good relationship. So that level of family disapproval can be hurtful. Now, I want to give some grace here to everybody, to people who have, to people who are lgbtq, you know, coming out and then having a bad reaction, that's devastating because someone you know you love is rejecting your identity. It's not just, oh, I don't like you with this partner. It's, I don't like. I don't like your sexuality, your preferences. That's a big part of who all of us are. And if someone, if a close, you know, parent is saying, no, get out of here, or the, at least I love you anyway, but I have a big problem with this, then that's, you know, even if it's sent with love, even if there's not a negative intention behind it, that's devastating. I mean, and so people, I think, understandably, have, have certainly singled this out in the sort of discourse as, you know, kind of saying her family, you know, may have isolated her with this or may have really hurt her with this. And I think that's understandable. And again, from those people who have those experiences, they can say firsthand something similar happened to me and I was devastated. So that's one thing. Listen, we're all trying to save money without compromising on quality these days. Frankly, Kevin and I need to ensure that Lani gets her fancy dog food brand, which is for lap dogs, even though she's a rather formidable looking lady.

B (17:14)

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Visit simplisafe.com msheet to claim 50% off a new system. That's simplisafe.com msheet there's no safe like SimpliSafe. On the other hand, you know, and the, and the family kind of said in the docu series, you know, it was the 90s, we, we were worried more so we still loved her. They, they may have not realized how hurtful that could be or they may have felt like, oh, she's just going through a phase or you know, they kind of may have been in somewhat denial of that. And you know, they, they, they, they seem to kind of downplay it when they were talking about it. And I, I think, you know, I, I get that it was the 90s. We, we think about, a lot of people think about this differently now in 2025 versus in 1998 or, or you know, earlier in the 90s. I get that and I think, I don't want to judge people too harshly based on the standards of today when we're talking about many, many years ago. But at the same time there, I think it's important to acknowledge how hurtful Amy could have possibly found that we don't really get that much of a sense of it except from, from her friends and former girl, you know, her girlfriends where they were kind of like they, they felt that this was something that was deeply troubling to her.

B (21:04)

Right.

A (21:05)

So again, I'm not trying to condemn the family, but I think it's important to acknowledge that, you know, there's some indications, even the way they talk about it on the docu series that there may be still a level of discomfort or level of denial or, or whatnot that may just be a bad edit. I don't want to, I don't know what's in these people's hearts. I, I think it's apparent to me from the way they talk about her that they deeply love Amy to this day, but at the same time you can love someone and still hurt them. What do you think about all of this?

B (21:35)

I think it's a complicated issue I don't. The fact is, if you see them appear to be uncomfortable talking about Amy's sexuality today, it is hard to determine. Or are they uncomfortable because of their. They disapprove of her sexuality or is just talking about their daughter having sex with anybody makes them uncomfortable? I know several older people who find it very difficult to acknowledge that their children have any sexuality at all.

A (22:08)

That's fair. And I think it's also, you know, I mean, I. I did see that there's been some social media activity that I'll touch on briefly, but with. With Brad Bradley, her. Her brother, he talks about her alternating preferences and sort of emphasizing and arguing with people indicating that he thinks she was a bisexual rather than a lesbian. That has struck some people as a bit defensive or a bit odd or sort of the way he describes it as not being how you typically would. But again, people can just be awkward and weird. I don't. Without, like, having a statement from people of, like, yes, we are homophobic. I'm just a little bit uncomfortable placing that label on them at this point, but I can. But I can understand how people who are, you know, LGBTQ might be like, no, that's just homophobic. So I guess, you know, as. As people are just sort of observing this, I'm. I'm going to kind of say there seems to be some pretty strong problems over there. But how much. How much we know about how people felt specifically, I think is. Is just beyond what you and I can do right now, because we haven't interviewed anybody. And I also don't know what was left on the cutting room floor in terms of this Netflix docu series. Let me just say something. Oh, yeah, and this is. This is from Netflix. So you and I, Kevin, have been interviewed in a number of different projects, true crime and otherwise. And sometimes people are like, oh, man, I talked to them for, you know, hours and hours, and they only use four minutes. That's standard. They were going to shoot hours and hours and hours and hours of interviews, and they can't include all of that, so they're going to include, like, a salient sound bite and leave all the rest. So that. That is why docu series can be problematic. They can, by nature of the beast, they strip away context and nuance because do you want to have a sound bite of me being like, all right, so in Jamestown, there were a number of different factors that were important as far as why all the colonists died, started dying in August of 1607, and the saline levels in the James river were Much higher at that time versus the spring. And there was also a, you know, 100 year drought. Do you want that or do you want me to be like, you know, what killed the Jamestown colonists? Salt poisoning, you know, like that, like that's going to be the, you know, if you're making a docu series and for some reason I'm in it about Jamestown, but you're going to want the short, pithy thing that, you know, in a punchy way tells you everything you need to know, but it's also going to leave out a bunch of other stuff.

B (24:42)

And it's also very easy to imagine if you are in front of cameras for four or five hours talking about a particular subject. It's pretty easy to imagine that at some point during the course of that 240 minutes, maybe there's a minute or two where you say something that in hindsight you don't mean or something that might seem different if they took it out of context. And I've often heard that from people who appear on their shows. Oh, I guess I said it because it's there on the show. That's not what I meant. That's not what I think. That's not what I feel because the, the, the creators of these documentaries are trying to tell a story and it's their story.

A (25:25)

Yes, that's right. They're, they're trying to tell a story that's going to appeal to their audience oftentimes and, you know, and if they're responsible, get at the truth and be accurate. But if they're, if they're not entirely responsible, something that's going to be cool and sexy. So anyways, one thing it is important to note that, you know, admits, you know, it does seem like the friends and family who knew Amy and knew about the issues with her family around her sexuality, they, they seem to still think that she was very close with them and she was excited for this trip. So that was interesting to me because I feel like those would have been the folks who would have known, oh no, she's really depressed about this and like, her, you know, like there might have been more of a discussion there of like, my family's driving me crazy or they're totally in denial. I love women and they, you know, don't accept that about me. Like, they, none of, none of them said, at least, at least in this docu series that they were getting that sense. But anyways, one of the most important, I think, things to note is that, you know, Amy was, you know, she had a Former girlfriend at that time, Molly McClure, who she had kind of, you know, known since she was younger. They both came out and they were very close, passionate, you know, relationship. Later on after they came out, but Amy had kissed another person, and she and Molly sort of broke it off after. Molly broke it off with her after that. But Amy sent her a letter sort of proclaiming how much she missed her. It was kind of ironically, a letter in a bottle kind of to show her, like, I'm stranded without you. And just a very heartfelt letter that Molly did read in part on the show. And she, you know, they actually had plans to get back together or, you know, like, explore that option afterwards.

B (27:20)

Can you clarify the timeline when this letter was sent as opposed to when this cruise happened?

A (27:26)

The cruise happened in March. The cruise departed on, I believe it was March 21st.

B (27:36)

And this letter, the bottle, I believe, was actually sent in February.

A (27:39)

So this was close. But I mean, on the one hand, you can say, well, that's a big stressor in her life. She met, you know, she messed things up with her girlfriend. Her girlfriend didn't want to be with her anymore. And then she, you know, is very sad about that, and you can tell the anguish in the letter. But on the other hand, her, you know, Molly responded well to it and was sort of like, let's meet up and chat things over when you get back from the cruise. So I think they had plans to spend Easter together. So that seems significant that she had something to look forward to after all of this, even if there was a heaviness to that situation. So, yeah, so that's kind of the background. You know, I, I think let's, I think we can go on, on to the cruise now. So the, the way the Bradleys got this cruise was they, they sold a certain amount for Illinois Mutual, and they won a single stateroom, but decided to bring their two adult children as well. So they're all going to be crowded into one stateroom. Um, you know, thought it was. I mean, I, I, I don't really know how cruises work. I, I don't. I, I would be curious from people who do, you know, go on cruises, if that's normal to cram that many people into one stateroom or, you know, why, you know, why not just go on as a couple, you know, versus bring the whole family? I just don't know how, how usual or unusual that is. They embarked from. They, they. The ship was the Rhapsody of the Seas with Royal Caribbean, one of the big cruise lines, and it embarked From San Juan, puerto Rico, on March 21, 1998. It was 10 decks, a thousand feet long, around 2,400 passengers, according to crew members on the docu series. So big. This is like a big, you know, massive village almost of, of people floating on the high seas. They were doing seven day cruises out of San Juan at that time. They would go to Aruba, Curacao, St. Martin and St. Thomas. Amy was seemingly, according to those who knew her, enjoying herself. Bought some postcards, taking pictures because she wanted to enter the cruise ship photography contest. She would go to the band. There's a band on the deck playing, you know, sort of steel kettle drum band. They would be playing. So day one, they leave. Day two's at sea. Day three, they stopped at Aruba. The family, the Bradleys, rented a vehicle, got lost in the desert. You know, they're very, they're very tired when they return and they're talking for plans about what they want to do with Curacao as they were. You know, this one thing the family observed was, or what they, you know, they said they observed was that the wait staff and the cruise ship staff was very attentive to Amy in particular, and they felt they were being flirtatious with her. The family joked with her about it, according to them. And a photographer took, you know, formal pictures of Amy and Brad, who he assumed was her boyfriend at first, but is her brother. So I want to talk about the waitstaff thing. You know, I think, and you said this too when we were watching it. You know, I mean, I don't really make that much of that. Like, if there's a group and there's a single young woman within the group, isn't that pretty commonplace?

B (31:07)

I mean, I'll make an obvious point. Waiters and waitresses make a significant amount of their income from tips. And so one way to get tips is to flatter people and to appear to be interested in them and kid around with them things of that nature.

A (31:26)

Yeah. And maybe even be a little flirtatious as long as it's within a level of appropriateness or just maybe bubbly or kind or outgoing in a way that can be perceived by others as flirtatious. But her receiving, I guess I don't really look. I mean, they made a big deal of it in the docu series, but to me that's, you know, and also if the parents seem to be enjoying people paying positive attention to their kids, their adult children, then that seems like that would almost be a self fulfilling prophecy. Yeah, right. So I'm just saying, I'm just noting that because I think like, yeah, it's. People on a cruise ship are in the customer service industry, they're in the hospitality industry. They're, you know, if it's a well run cruise ship, they're going to be trained to be as pleasant, nice, accommodating as possible in these settings and they're going to be rewarded for that with higher tips.

B (32:20)

Yeah.

A (32:22)

So before the disappearance. Let's go into the like run up of that. So before the disappearance, there's a pool party on one of the decks started at 10pm on March 23. There was dancing, a limbo contest, lots of pictures taken there and the Bradleys were, were there during that pool party. The ship departs from Aruba and at some point there's a, there's a person, you know, a cameraman for like, kind of like shooting footage for like an official work trip thing. And they capture Amy dancing with the ship's band's bassist, a man named Alastair Douglas. He was known as Yellow. And in the first shot that we see on the docu series, they do not appear to be super close together. In another image, he's sort of holding her a bit closer. Later, the Bradleys claim that later when they looked at the bar tab, Amy had consumed seven light beers over the dance over the course of the evening. I'm just gonna note this if, you know, it's also possible that other people were. That's first of all according to the Bradleys and second of all, if other people were bringing her drinks too, that, you know, that number could be higher than, than what we're aware of. Is that fair to say?

B (33:44)

That's fair to say. I'm not a drinker. Seven light beers, is that a lot? Is that not a lot?

A (33:48)

I don't remember and like I would just throw down so hard sometimes I would just not keep track and I. That could be. I guess the short answer is that could be a lot. It depends on how quickly you drink them and it depends on your size and weight and also your tolerance for alcohol if you're a heavy drinker.

B (34:06)

And I, I think also, I imagine just based on my experience with soda that it would also a lot depends on the size of the serving. I don't know if there is a standard size. Here's your thing of light beer.

A (34:20)

I think there is.

B (34:21)

I mean if I go to McDonald's and get seven large Cokes, that's different. When I'm in a more informal setting and get a Coke, it's usually in a much smaller cup.

A (34:31)

It would probably be more standardized because unlike a McDonald's where you can refill yourself, they, you know, the bartender would be doing that. But, but no, it's a fair point. It's, it, it would depend on a lot of things, but it's also possible if someone like sends her a cocktail or, you know, someone's like, oh, I'll buy this round for everybody, then that, that can, you know, that can boost things up further. Um, but yeah, it really, it would depend on how quickly those beers were consumed and, and you know, how high of a tolerance of alcohol she had. And then she was described as a small woman. So that would, you'd get, the smaller you are, the drunker you get quicker. But also if you are used to drinking a lot, then you don't get as drunk as quickly. So at 1am in this docu series, the Bradley parents say they called it a night. So this point, it's March 24th and it's a pleasant departure according to them. And Iva and Amy exchange I love yous. Amy and Brad, though, decide to stay out drinking, listening to the music. According to Brad, they're having a great time, having fun together. And at 2:00am at, at this dance, another passenger named Wayne Brytag saw Amy. So people are seeing her there and at some point Brad leaves the club, sort of motions to Amy letting her know he's going. He sees her in the DJ booth area where a number of people are. Brad then goes out and hangs out on the upper deck and goes back to their room. He cards himself in around 3:35am and goes out onto the balcony. His parents are in bed sleeping. So Amy, you know, As I mentioned, seven light beers from 6pm onward and she, she goes back to the room as well and her key card comes in on the log as being used at 3:40am so shortly after Brad, they join each other. They talk about the next day. Amy mentions that Douglas made a pass at her, according to Brad, and she didn't make a big deal of it. She didn't. From, from what he said, it didn't sound like she was upset about it, just was noting it. And Amy noted that she didn't feel very good and wanted the fresh air in the wind. So Brad left her on the balcony to go to sleep and shut the glass door behind him on the balcony. So she's on the balcony then. This is crucial. Her father, Ronald wakes up, according to him, around 5:30am and he notes that he Sees Amy's legs and feet in a lounge chair on the balcony and sees Brad in the room. So now we're getting to the disappearance. So at around 10 to 6 or 6am her father wokes up again. Something wakes him up. Ronald does not remember what woke him up, but some kind of thing happened and woke him up. And he opens his eyes, sees that Amy is no longer on the balcony. He says the balcony doors open about 12 to 14 inches. Her cigarettes are not out there. The shirt she had on is laying on a chair in the room. It's a yellow polo, but she had a white T shirt on underneath. And around that time, the ship was starting to come into port at Curacao. Her dad leaves the room immediately, wants to let the others, Iva and Brad, sleep. He's looking for Amy and he assumes that this time that she went to get coffee. But when he couldn't find her, he comes back in and wakes his wife up and lets her know that they can't find Amy. So there's an immediate response as they're, you know, arriving in Willemstad. Coraco. Sorry, sorry if I'm saying that wrong. As the ship is close to docking, it's been about 60 minutes since Amy was last seen. Parents go to the ship. They're very forceful about shutting everything down immediately and putting out a voice page. At 7am the ship officials are telling them that's too intrusive, it's too early. Maybe she's somewhere that you haven't looked yet. Keep searching and then if you can't find her again, I will, you know, they will get security. And after that they, they return without finding her and they make an announcement. So they, they do let people exit the ship at that time. And the family was very adamant that they not do that. So after Amy has been missing for three hours, around 9:00am the ship undergoes a Charlie drill. They, you know, 45 minutes to an hour, 800 to 900. Members of the ship's crew are searching every inch of the ship. Their own cabins, different closets everywhere. And they, they cannot find her. So she does not appear to be on the ship anymore. Curacao authorities get involved. A man named Adzir John or John Mentar. He was the harbor police chief at Curacao at the time. He claimed that there was a huge search, nautical search. And with the location, strong currents and the ship not being far from port, a body would have washed ashore definitely. And they have helicopters and boats out looking, claims it was like the biggest search between Curacao and Aruba. They've got the Venezuelan Coast Guard, the Navy, the Marines.

B (39:47)

Do you believe he's right? Do you believe a body would have definitely have washed up?

A (39:52)

So this is something where I, I thought that was really bizarre that they. Okay, there's two things here. I'm. And I'm going to. We can get more into this later. We're trusting. We're putting a lot on the father's timeline. We're putting a lot on Ronald's timeline. And I'm not saying he's lying. I'm saying that if I'm half asleep and I wake up and I think it's a certain time, that's a lot to put on that specific time. So we're relying on, okay, 5:30, she's seen. 6:00am she's not seen. So if she possibly went overboard earlier, then that could throw off the whole search. So that's one thing. And two, listen, he has credibility. He is a former harbor police chief. This man seemed a little too adamant for my preferences, to be honest. Like, I would have if they had had a. Some kind of, like, scientist who maybe, you know, like somebody who could have been like, okay, here's why. It would have been impossible for the body not to have washed up. But I, I mean, I understand that they weren't that far away from Curacao, but things happen. Sharks exist. I hate to say this, because this is pretty grisly, but if the body comes in contact with the ship itself, is it a possibility that it's damaged or, you know, it becomes harder to find because perhaps that, you know, it. Dismemberment occurs or whatnot? Again, sharks. I guess I'm just kind of like, when anyone's telling me, oh, it definitely would have done this, or we definitely would have found it. I'm just skeptical of that, and I want further proof. Okay, you're saying that maybe you have a reason to think the harbor police are the bee's knees who could do no wrong and could never, you know, not find something or, you know, you're basing it on your own experiences. But do we have any outside experts who can look at the charts and look at the tides and look at everything and say, yeah, definitely not. Or who are experts on shark predation or who are like, can we bolster that? And that was one thing I was really disappointed in the documentary because they're just taking basically, like, one or two people's word of like, yeah, she would have washed up and then just totally throwing that out. How are we supposed to believe that? I mean how are we supposed to know that that's true or that's just that guy's opinion? And again, I think everything gets thrown off if we, if we throw out the 5:30am time I'm going to tell you. I've had weird dreams. I've woken up and thought like, imagined myself looking over at an alarm clock and then went back to sleep. And then it's like I don't even have that type of an alarm clock anymore. But like you, you get confused like, or you think you see something and you don't because you're half asleep. Like I, I'm just saying, like if the search was based on information that may have not been entirely accurate, then who are we just who are we to say the search was foolproof? So anyways, Federal Bureau of Investigation gets involved on March 26, 1998. They show up, they're brought aboard, they're briefed by the captain, they find that the room had already been cleaned, which is obviously a pretty big problem because the loss of evidence. But they don't find any sign of a struggle. They find a very small room with two beds, balcony that goes straight down into the water. And they find that on the balcony where she had last been seen, pretty high railing, difficult to fall off just randomly. But there is a small table pushed right up against it and shoes right next to that table. So, you know, along with two lounge chairs. So that's kind of interesting. And they just don't really, they, you know, they did know that that table could have been pushed up against there by cleaners perhaps. So it's not like it's conclus. Um, they interview the Bradleys all together and then separately the Bradleys seem somewhat, at least in their recounting of this on the docu series, seem immediately defensive of like, why are you looking at us? You have to find our daughter. That's pretty standard procedure. And they don't find that Bradley's. There's no indication that they did anything, you know, foul play wise. They try to find timelines. That's going to be an important in a case like this with compromised evidence, you know, to confirm when each member of the family reentered the room and they find that she again entered at 3:40am was on the balcony. You know that, that it gets murky after that though, because the room car keys track you going into a room, they don't track you leaving a room. They, the ship had security cameras in common areas. They don't really find anything relevant in the footage. They talked to a guy named Chris Fenwick, who is one of the guys who's editing the camera footage from the work trip. So he gives some of those to FBI agents. And they also. There's a witness who's 18 at the time, Lori Thompson, who claims that she saw Amy while she was sitting on the top deck that morning, saw Amy and Douglas go on a glass elevator up to the nightclub, which was closed. But the FBI cannot confirm this. The girls, you know, mom let them into the room. They didn't use a key card. So it doesn't even. We don't even know what time they were out there. We don't know if they actually saw these people. We don't know if that really happened on that day or not. So it's, you know, Douglas is questioned. He says he knew who Amy was and they did flirt. He flirted with her at least. And he just, you know, he says, I'm a flirt. I flirt with a lot of women on the cruise. That's what I'm doing. He becomes very bothered and agitated. But the FBI agents note that, you know, someone who's innocent can be become that way if they're like, I didn't do this. What are you talking about? The docu series then some, for some reason, randomly focuses on the next door neighbor of the Bradleys, who's in the, you know, state room next to them, and Breitag.

B (45:58)

So Wayne Britag.

A (46:00)

Yeah, Wayne Breitag, who works at the same company. The docu series didn't mention that it works as the same company at the Bradleys. Ivor Bradley's like saying, oh, he's such an odd man and he's going on a cruise alone. Some people do do that. I mean, I don't know. And ominous music plays as he denies having anything to do with it. But Iva Bradley claims that passengers on the other side of Breitag said that his radio or TV was really loud that night and that he was talking to somebody. So who is he talking to? But no evidence is found, and the Bradleys fly out of there. They end up getting off on St. Thomas. They leave, go back on March 27, 1998, and they start a command center immediately. So they're operating from the idea that she has been abducted. I want to note that because I think that's really unusual. If I last saw my daughter on a balcony on a ship, and then I looked again and she wasn't there, my immediately, my immediate concern would be, oh, my God, she went over. Search the water. The fact that the Bradleys and I think. I think it's. They. They immediately wanted the captain to not let anyone off the ship. You wouldn't care about people getting off the ship if, if it wasn't an abduction.

B (47:18)

Right.

A (47:19)

You would care about sending, you know, helicopters, boats out to rescue her at sea. Why on earth did they immediately assume this was an abduction rather than an accident? I'd find that very odd.

B (47:36)

Right.

A (47:39)

And even if you think I don't know which one it is, you would think that. Well, if she. If it's. If she's at sea, you know, the. The hypothermia, drowning, sharks, like the, you know, like, if she's still alive, we have to do this really quickly to get her out of there. It's just odd. I find it very odd. But they immediately are running with this idea that she was kidnapped. And they. They do a press conference in Curacao on April 17, 1998. In Willemstad, they complain about the past captain not wanting to do what they said. They meet this taxi driver who claims he saw her, and they claim that he gives details like she had green eyes and she had a white top with jeans that like, only, you know, someone who knew things could know. And I'm. I'm skeptical about that. He tells them where to go, and they team up with John Mentar, the guy who claims that there's no way the body wouldn't have washed up. And they. He's, you know, he's a police officer. He takes them around the island and they go to different places. And he notes that there's sex trafficking and prostitution on the island. Prostitution is legal on the island, but there is noted sex trafficking and organized crime. So 1998, in August, a man named David Carmichael is in Porto Marie, Curacao. He says he's in, like, a area where only the locals hang out, and that he sees a woman who he strongly believes is Amy being walked around by two guys, including a guy he claims is Alistair Douglas, and that he claims that she had a tattoo that looked like the Tasmanian Devil. We're going to talk about some of these witness sightings later on December 5, 1998. Several months later, the they America's Most Wanted broadcast information about the case, including her tattoo, including different physical details. Carmigul sees it and. And claims that, oh, I. I saw that girl. And there's another sighting. In January 1999 in Curacao, a Navy man named Bill Hefner is off the USS Chandler. He's doing an overnight in Curacao, goes to a bar he's not supposed to be in, meets two guys and two women there. One of the girls is Hispanic and the other girl is white. And the white girl says, I need help. I owe them $200. I can't get my freedom. And, you know, he claims that, you know, he'd met all kinds of working girls in his time in the Navy and heard a lot of different weird stories, so he wasn't that concerned. But he claims she worked, had a southern accent and said, my name is Amy Brad Bradley, and that she went off the ship to score drugs, but then was kidnapped and stuck with or like, owed them money and was stuck with them. And so then he left. And in 2001, he was reminded of that situation, saw the picture in some news media, connected the dots and tipped it in. He was lie detect. He went through a lie detector test. He was not sure if one of the guys with her was. Was Douglas or not. He. He just didn't remember. To me, I. It's not that I'm like trying to, like, we can talk more about the witnesses later, but if, if you're on Curacao, that's probably a case you're going to be aware of. And if you're a. A sex worker who's maybe trying to shake somebody down or get some extra money or get somewhere, then that might be a story you tell somebody if you're white.

B (51:16)

Right.

A (51:16)

You know, people used to claim that they were the lost Dauphine of France. People used to claim that they were Charles Lindbergh Jr. Or the third or whatever. You know, people claim to be missing people all the time. Anastasia. Right. The. The lost Serena.

B (51:31)

Exactly.

A (51:32)

People claim to be people to get things. That does not mean that they are those people. In 2005. This is kind of what's kind of really pervaded to this day. This, this development in 2005. There's images of a sex worker from, like, an adults only sex website that show up and they're sent to the Bradleys and they're. There are claims that they look exactly like Amy. And forensic analysis is done. At least one forensic analyst hired by the family believes it was Amy. We're going to talk about that later. That's. There's some problems with that.

B (52:14)

Should we talk about it now? I'm not good with faces. Would you say you're better with faces than me? Do you think these pictures look like Amy Bradley?

A (52:25)

There's a resemblance. There's a resemblance. I'LL say there was. At least in one of the images, there's a resemblance. So I can understand why they made a big deal about looks like a very rough, hard living woman. But they're saying that she may have been through all this bad stuff for years, so maybe it's her. But there are other images of this same sex worker on the same website that don't look like Amy, in my opinion. They. This docu series, I think, was extremely dishonest about these images in particular. They show you one. At least I remember them focusing on one. And then they're doing all these graphics and super. First of all, they're doing the kind of classic side by side thing that you're not supposed to do in true crime. And they're like, almost like showing, you know, like, like, here's Amy's picture. Oh, and here's a combination of the two. Oh, and here's. Here's the sex worker, which is supposed to make you think, oh, it's Amy. You know, like, it's supposed to trick your mind. Then they're doing all these, like, stupid little graphics where they, like, draw a slash over her chin or a slash over her nose to show you how it matches. Confirmed match. And it's all bs. I'm sorry. I'm like, this ticks me off. They had one person they paid say it was her. The FBI does not seem to have any sort of official conclusion. I've seen people running around all over the Internet being like, the FBI confirmed it was hurt. No, they did not. They were very clear about that. I think. I think photographic analysis is perhaps helpful in some instances. I don't think it's an exact science. I think there's a level of interpretation there. And when you look at these other images, which are disturbing of this, this sex worker kind of in all these, you know, some nudity and whatnot there, there's very clearly no tattoos where Amy is said to have tattoos. So. And then people are like, well, maybe they just covered it up with makeup. Okay. Like, but now we're getting into the realm of like, okay, if you're so concerned about her being identified, why are you putting pictures of her on the Internet?

B (54:30)

Right.

A (54:31)

Yeah, it's just I. I don't. I really strongly do not believe it's her. I can understand why they wanted to look into that, but I think even the family, when they're interviewed about this, they kind of say, well, it could be her. They're not even adamant, and they're adamant that she was sex Trafficked. So I don't know, I just find it very hard to believe the pictures are disturbing. It's a very lurid angle, but I think it was handled very irresponsibly in this docuseries. What do you think?

B (54:57)

I'm not good with faces, so I'm not one to judge. It seems very unlikely that those pictures are her. I don't believe she is the person in those pictures.

A (55:12)

Well, another America. So another, another witness came out. So this was an incident that occurred in Barbados in 2005. America's tourist named Judy Maurer came forward claiming she saw Amy at a store. They were in the women's bathroom and she overheard men in the women's restroom and she got scared and they were saying, the deal's at 11 o' clock and I'm warning you, you better be ready to go. She claims when she came out of the stall she saw a young woman with long, dark, crazy hair who's crying. And she asked her her name and she said Amy and she heard a southern accent and she thought, she said she was from West Virginia. And then the men barged in and she got out of there. So she seemed very excited to be on this docu series.

B (56:01)

So is this the, the. Pardon me, Is this the last of the witnesses? Do you want to make your comments about witnesses now?

A (56:06)

Yeah, well, I, I, let's, let's go through my, like list of just things that came up in the docu series, just the facts of the case and then we can get into that. So the docu series had one, you know, kind of big new voice in this and that was, you know, one, one of several actually, but this one pertaining to the case. It's said that in April 2017, Emica Douglas, Alastair Douglas, daughter, his daughter calls the Bradleys. She's from St. George's Grenada. She claims that she had a very strong relationship with her father growing up, but he eventually he and her mom's relationship didn't work out. And she claims that her mom said she wasn't born at the time, but her mom said when he came back from the Rhapsody of the Seas cruise where Amy went missing, he was very dismissive and hurtful towards her. I don't really know what that means, but. And that her mom looked in his bag and found pictures of women and was upset because they were Caucasian women. And she claims she has all these questions for her dad, but he often doesn't like to talk about it and gets upset when she's asking him about, you Know if he murdered a woman on a cruise ship? I guess. So they, they actually have her call him on the docu series. What do you think about that?

B (57:28)

I, I thought that was troubling. Not very professional or responsible. Very manipulative. To have a person's daughter on camera call, call the father and basically the really insinuate that he's guilty of murder.

A (57:47)

I thought it was gross.

B (57:50)

You're manipulating a personal family relationship in order to try to get content.

A (57:54)

I, I was really disgusted by that, to be honest. And for the people are like, well, what if she got a confession? Well, first of all, that wasn't gonna happen.

B (58:01)

That wasn't gonna happen.

A (58:02)

But second of all, there's something about setting up someone like that who's obviously refused to be in your docu series. It's just, I think it's gross. I, I thought it was totally unethical and, you know, I, I just thought it was really snakish behavior, frankly. So, you know, the one interesting thing though, about this conversation between Amiko and Alistair is, you know, Amiko's ask amica is asking him all these kind of questions about like, why, you know, like, oh, why do you react badly or what, you know, what happened? Did you have anything, you know, and you, first of all, you can see why he's annoyed. I mean, you could see why he would be upset because it's, you know, it's like, I've told you this so many times. I didn't have anything to do with, I don't know what to say. If someone was constantly asking you that, you know, and you didn't do something, I think anyone would get annoyed.

B (58:51)

Yeah, of course.

A (58:51)

He's not like, lashing out in a mean or horrific way. He's just like, clearly, like, tired of talking about this and tired of the insinuation that he did something. He gets annoyed. She, she, she talks about, well, why do you have all these pictures of white ladies? And he's like, I, I took a lot of pictures with different cruise members. I mean, here's my read on Douglas. He was a bassist on this ship and, you know, he was a flirt and he wanted to hook up with women. That seems reasonable, you know, and like, you can have reasonable read. I could understand why his wife didn't like that or maybe why their relationship fell apart. I'm not saying he was a good father, husband, whatever. I mean, I don't know the man, so I don't know. But, like, that's not illegal, you know, I, I, you know, that, that's just not illegal. And, and I don't, you know, they, they so with, with him, he talks about, or this came out, that he was in his cabin by 3:35am they can't show if he left or not because they can't show if anyone left or not. But that seems significant. And so, because then, because then you have to believe that he and Amy just happened to leave or have a, have a, you know, time to meet up with each other. You know, like in the early hours of the morning after both returning to their cabins.

B (60:07)

Yes.

A (60:07)

And then things become a lot more complicated. Yeah. So. And then one of the other ship employees said that he was actually a nice guy and he just was dancing with the wrong girl that night. And I agree with that. So that's that. That's that. Then. The last significant piece of information is that they talked to a Sydney, Australia based quote, online investigator, end quote, whatever that means, named Anthony Willis, who is really into true crime, and set up the amybradleyismissing.com website in 2018 to compile photographs, sightings, links, all that stuff. So I mean, that's not a necessarily a bad thing to have a place where people can go. I don't know what the reputation of this website is though. He and Carmichael, the witness become buddies and they, you know, Carmichael says, I work in telecommunications. Let's track IP addresses. Okay. So that's a witness that's gotten very emotionally invested in this whole thing. That's a great, great sign. And they talk about all these IPs in Barbados, looking at pictures of Amy's family on like holidays or Iva's birthday. So they're like, that must be either the kidnappers are getting curious and like Carmichael's chuckling and like getting all like, haha. I bet they're curious. It's like, what the. Okay, dude. Or it's Amy checking in and she's not coming home because her kids are being held by the sex traffickers or because she's embarrassed to come home, I don't know. Or she has Stockholm syndrome. So yeah, that's. We'll talk about all that. Yeah. So they, they do bring up these number of different witness sightings. We went through all of them. There are problems with all of these sightings. Your problems with all these sightings. You have situations where people could be mistaking, mistaken different people who look like Amy for Amy. None of these people knew Amy in real life. Some of them were only coming forward years later. Others seem very excited to be involved in the mission of bringing, bringing Amy home, which I think compromises their, their objectivity here, you know, And I, I think, I don't, I don't believe any of them saw Amy. I think some of them may have seen a white woman. And I think some of them may have been told things or whatever. But I, I think, I don't, I don't buy any of these sightings. They're just too sketchy. Not saying people are necessarily lying. I am saying that witness sightings that are like months old, you know, or, or not even months old. Even the people who came forward pretty quickly, like where we can't really nail down a timeline. I just, I have a hard time. And again, I, I think some of these witnesses, Mara and Carmichael in particular, seem very excited to be involved in all this. I think there's credibility issues there.

B (63:05)

I would agree completely.

A (63:09)

I want to talk about the possible solutions.

B (63:12)

Okay.

A (63:12)

I mean, you didn't even wanna watch this docuseries. Cause you were like, this is just obviously an accident. Right?

B (63:20)

Well, let me. I didn't quite say that. I think when you just look at the bare facts of this case, it is apparent that no crime was committed. So I don't know what that means. That means that she could have fallen off the boat accident. It means she could have committed suicide. I don't know which. She could have intentionally gone overboard in order to end her life. She could have intentionally gone overboard because she's drunk and tipsy and thinks, oh, shore is so close, I can swim to shore. She could have accidentally gone overboard. So I'm not sure she went off accidentally. I do think she went off the boat that night. And I don't think anyone else was involved except for Amy Bradley and is someone who was not there and is not inside her head. I don't feel it's ultimately knowable whether or not it was intentional or an accident.

A (64:25)

You said something to me that I thought was really insightful as usual. You said that if this is a human trafficking abduction of a, you know, young, white, middle class woman off of a cruise ship, that's the first time this ever happened.

B (64:48)

Yeah.

A (64:50)

And I have desperately tried to find other instances where that's happened or even where that's believed to have happened. There are people who go missing on cruise ships. That's not, you know, and there may be even instances on cruise ships where foul play is involved in the sense that, you know, I'm trying to get your insurance money, so I'm going to push you off the cruise ship. So I'm not saying crimes don't happen on cruise ships. They do. But the idea specifically of what I just said, that a woman who is going to be missed is targeted for forcible abduction to be sold into sexual slavery. I cannot find that ever happening before. So you, what you noted is that would have to be the first time this ever happened in history, which also.

B (65:34)

Makes it very unlikely. And also, as you say, she would be missed. By all accounts, she was having fun with her family on this trip. We see pictures of her with her family. So if you are the sex trafficker and you see her with an active support system, active. Part of a network there on the ship, I think that would be someone you would be least likely to pick out.

A (66:01)

I think you wouldn't even pick anyone. Here's the thing. Sex trafficking is so poorly misunderstood. It's actually like a disaster. And stuff like this, stuff like this docu series does not help matters. Sex trafficking and human trafficking are huge problems. They're very real, very glaring, very horrible problems. They do not look like this. They do not look like, ooh, the evil sex traffickers embed on a cruise and then pick out someone they think is hot and kidnap them. That's not how that works. Here's how it works. You know, they groom a teenager, get her into drugs, and then she owes them debt, so they start pimping her out. That's what it looks like. They target the impoverished. They talk, target people in, you know, impoverished countries. They target people in impoverished communities in the United States. And they, they target. Your boyfriend gets you into it because he's getting you on drugs or he's pimping you out. People close to you get you into it. You know, like your family gets you into it. It's not, you're not. There's, there's a, there's an abundance of desperate people who will voluntarily. Maybe they'll be coerced. I mean, there, there, there could still be an element of coercion, like, oh, come to this country for a job now, I have your passport. You can't leave now you have to do sex trafficking. So that's coercion. But it's not the same thing as, like, I'm walking down the street, da da da mania. Oh, no, I've been kidnapped and they're going to sex traffic me. That's not, that's not how that works. Because the reason why that doesn't work, because sex trafficking is a business. It's sort of like drugs. Like, am I going to be walking down the street and someone's going to be like forcing me to pay money for drugs at gunpoint and then I have to do the drugs and I get addicted. No, you know why? Because there's a ton of other people who will willingly pay that money and get addicted. They don't need to force me to do meth. That sounded weird, but you know what I mean. So if you kidnap me or if you kidnap anybody where, you know, there's like a stable family or like they're, you know, from a, like, like, you know, anyone who, you know is just living their lives, you don't want to kidnap someone to force them into sex trafficking because you have an abundance of other people who will do it and you won't have to kidnap them, they'll just kind of do it. And maybe at some point it devolves into a kidnapping like situation where they really can't leave. But you don't want to start out with that because if I get away or, you know, like something goes wrong, there's going to be a huge police response and it's going to be your business is going to go under.

B (68:43)

So we agree sex trafficking is not really plausible here. And so there's different types of situations here. There was the situation where I guess somebody breaks into the cabman and kidnaps her from the balcony without waking anybody.

A (68:58)

Or crosses over on the balconies.

B (69:00)

Yeah, without waking anybody. She doesn't cry out or anything of that nature.

A (69:04)

I'll read through my, like, little, I have like a little list of different options and they're all the four possibilities as I see it are suicide, accident, voluntary disappearance and foul play. And then there's several different branches of the foul play theory. Let's talk about voluntary disappearance. You know, she goes, she leaves her family, sneaks out of the ship, goes to Curacao and stays there. This seems really unlikely. This was a woman who was close with her family and friends. She had a job. I just don't see she had no reason to do this. It just seems really cruel and very unlikely that someone who is like an untrained 23 year old could disappear to that extent. What do you think?

B (69:42)

Yeah, I agree. I think we can grow that one out.

A (69:45)

Foul play, which is murder on the ship. So in this situation, Amy is murdered in her cabin by someone she knows, like one of her family members, and her body is thrown off the ship. No, I don't think so either. I think her family loved her also. If her family killed her, why would they be why wouldn't they have just been like, I guess she fell off the ship? Why have they been making such a big deal about every foul play angle all these years later? That just seems unlikely to me. And there's no evidence of it. There's no evidence.

B (70:12)

No evidence whatsoever.

A (70:13)

No evidence of a struggle. So I've seen some people say that and listen often, you know, you have to look at families, and the FBI clearly did, but I just don't see any evidence for this. The other foul play on the ship is she's murdered in her cabin. Who by? Someone who sneaks into the cabin or onto the balcony unbeknownst to her family. Also seems unlikely. Why didn't they hear anything?

B (70:33)

Right.

A (70:35)

And then the third one is Amy leaves her cabin and is murdered elsewhere and presumably thrown off the ship. To me, this is the most plausible of all of the different foul play theories, but there's no evidence for it, and there's no evidence she left her cabin.

B (70:51)

It's most plausible because we imagine if someone breaks into the cabin, that would wake other people up.

A (70:58)

Yes. And this is more plausible than all the sex trafficking nonsense, because this could. This actually can happen on a cruise, you know, so, like, if there's foul.

B (71:10)

Play, it's this, but no evidence of it. And we don't believe that you should be able to just dream up scenarios and say, well, maybe this happened. You need to have evidence. There's no evidence.

A (71:22)

There's no evidence of this. There's no evidence she left her cabin. There's no evidence she left.

B (71:29)

What's next?

A (71:30)

Foul play? Abduction on the ship. She leaves the cabin and is abducted and smuggled off the ship. Again, fanciful and ridiculous. And one thing I got pissed off with watching this thing is this docu series really seems to be okay with sort of, like, possibly allowing the Bradleys to implicate the entire crew. Like, oh, these. These crew, they've got some foreigners in them.

B (71:58)

What?

A (71:59)

Like that? I mean, they were having this woman who's like a cruise ship safety advocate talk about, like, oh, these people aren't vetted because they're from countries that aren't into vetting. Listen, like, I get what she was saying, but, like, are we really gonna. Do we really think, like, everyone on Rhapsody of the Seas was just sitting around like, let's smuggle out white women? Like, it just. There's something very offensive and frankly, like, I'm gonna say it racist about this. Like, I'm not saying I'm not. Like, you know, and the reason I say it's racist. You know, if there was evidence of Alistair Douglas, who's black, you know, doing something to Amy, you know, it's not racist to say that just because he's black and she's white. But if there's like zero evidence, but they're not even just saying it about him, they're implying it with all the crew and sort of implying, well, they're just these scary foreigners to me. I guess that's what they do. And it's like, there's just something about it. It's like if you don't have any evidence, you're just going based on that. It just seems to be like appealing to some sort of weird, like, Fu Manchu, like, racism, xenophobia of. Terrified of people from other countries who are not white and they're kind of come for me and sell me into slavery. It just, it struck me the wrong way. And I blame Netflix more for how they framed some of this than, than anybody else, frankly, because it was just like, really? Does that seem like super responsible? I don't know. You know, show me instances where this is happening and then I'll say, okay, maybe, maybe, maybe I'll take it back about the cruise ship cruise. But these people are, are at work, they're doing a job. You know, the idea that they're nefarious based on nothing, it just me off, like, come on, you know, like, would we go to a hotel, be like, oh, I thought all these people want to traffic us, you know, like, I don't. What do you think?

B (73:40)

Well, I think, no, we wouldn't go to a hotel and think that. And also, this goes back to what I was saying before. You don't just invent a scenario and say, well, maybe this is what happened. You need to have some sort of evidence to support it. And unless you can point to specific people who were on the ship who had a history of this sort of behavior, I don't find it too compelling to just. If you're just sitting there in your armchair and rubbing your chin and saying, what if we need evidence?

A (74:14)

Another foul play angle is that Amy took a voluntary trip off the ship and that led to her being captured in sex traffic later. So one option with that is she leaves the ship for a totally innocuous reason without telling anyone and is kidnapped on the island. So to that I would say, why would she leave without telling anyone? That doesn't make any sense. And then two would be, Amy leaves the ship to get drugs without telling anyone and is kidnapped on the island. That's in line with the Navy person.

B (74:46)

But no one's indicated she has a history with drugs. And it doesn't seem too compelling to imagine that while she was on this cruise ship, she stole moments away from her family to suddenly develop a drug addiction and suddenly get the information that there's this place you can go to get more drugs. So I don't find those things compelling. And she was missing prior to the ship docking, so why did she disappear from her cabin? To make an innocuous trip or to make any trip at all. If I wanted to go buy drugs or whatever, I could just tell Anya, oh, I have an errand to run. When we do, you know, is I don't think she need. Would have needed to stage her own disappearance. So I think that's not too compelling.

A (75:28)

The next option is suicide. So this indicates that Amy had been planning to die by suicide and then did so, you know, she pushed the table against the railing and jumped that night. And, you know, I know she had the issues with her family. I know there was the angst that, you know, sort of they weren't accepting her sexuality. And her letter to Molly was anguished. But the thing is, she had a hope with reconnecting with Molly. I don't feel like there's any indication, based on what her friend said, that she went on the cruise planning to die. What do you think?

B (76:05)

I. I think suicide is not something where highly rational people in the best frame of mind are, like, sitting down with a slight rule or something and running the numbers and coming to a conclusion.

A (76:19)

Well, that's the next option, which is that she impulsively decides to die by suicide. Yeah.

B (76:23)

Suicide is not a rational decision. So it's hard to judge whether or not a person is likely to do it. And one thing you often hear is that people who commit suicide, their family and relatives didn't see it coming.

A (76:38)

Yeah. The second option with this would be Amy is feeling depressed and impulsively decides to die by suicide that night. So she pushes the table against the railing and jumps. That seems possible. As you said, suicide can be very impulsive and out of nowhere and, you know, at least out of nowhere to those around the person. I think this is. I don't really see enough evidence to feel like this is something that I feel comfortable being at the forefront of my theories. But again, we need to understand that suicide is highly impulsive. It can be highly impulsive. And then the other kind of like, halfway measure is Amy is feeling depressed and gets intoxicated and starts doing things that are sort of careless towards her own safety without necessarily having a lot of intentionality. Sometimes when you're drunk, you're just doing stuff and maybe there's an element of like self harm or cry for help there, but it just goes wrong, you know, so she's kind of like, you know, on the table, kind of leaning over, sitting on the railing and then you know, and again there might be an element of like her emotional state affecting that without necessarily having enough intent to form like I'm want to die.

B (77:46)

Yeah, I feel all those things are plausible. As I said earlier, I think there's no evidence that she left the balcony and re entered her parents room. I think she left the ship from the balcony. I don't think there is ever going to be enough evidence for us to know whether or not her leaving the ship from the balcony and falling into the sea was the result of an intentional decision or an accident.

A (78:13)

So the accident options are for some reason she sneaks onto the island and then dies by some accident there and no one realizes it. Why did she sneak off? That seems unlikely. Why would her body never be found? Seems unlikely. Another one is Amy left the cabin and ended up falling off the ship. Elsewhere again there's no evidence she left the cabin. Then there's on the balcony. Amy was still intoxicated, got up on the table for some reason to get a view or maybe because she wanted to and ended up falling. That seems possible to me. This following one is the. What I believe happened on the balcony. Amy felt sick from drinking too much. She got up on the table to possibly vomit into the water and ended up falling. The fact that she told Brad she didn't feel well and she wanted the fresh air. The fact that she'd been drinking that night. The fact that her she's in a small stateroom with her full family. She doesn't want to run over to the bathroom and start barfing and wake everyone up. It's embarrassing to me. I think this is what happened based on the fact that there's no evidence that she left. There's no credible evidence as far as I'm concerned. I know people point to the witness sightings. I don't buy the witness sightings. I don't. I just don't. There's like some of them are just obviously very into the mission of bringing Amy home. Some of them are, you know, I believe, I think it's very possible the Bill Hefner guy was accosted by a white woman who was like, I'm Amy Bradley. I think that woman was lying. I don't think that was really Amy Bradley. I think. I think the idea that someone's being sex trafficked around the Caribbean in this context is laughably hard to believe. I think she died. I think people say things like, well, Amy was a really good swimmer. She was a lifeguard. I'm going to tell you this. I was this captain of my swim team. I was a lifeguard in high school. If I plummeted several decks off a cruise ship into the ocean, I will pro. I could very well die, too. You know, like, I, I like if you hit the water wrong at a speed that's very high because you're falling from high up, doesn't matter how good of a swimmer you are, it doesn't matter that you're somewhat close to shore. If you hit the water wrong, you could be knocked unconscious and drowned. Even if you don't, you know, the. The waves, the predators in the water. I mean, it's. It's an incredibly dangerous situation to be in. Does not matter how good of a swimmer you are. We're not talking about her falling off a rowboat. You know, this is. This is a cruise ship. And frankly, this was. This was the theory that it was explored least I felt. I mean, they kind of gave some credence the idea that she might have died by suicide because they talked about, you know, her. Her sexuality and her disagreement with her family. But, like, they didn't really, like, why not do something where you have an expert talk about, okay, if a body fell from this height into this kind of water, this is what could happen? Like, it would have been nice to see some of that or, like, show what that would have looked like. I don't know. It did. So this docu series primarily consisted of these interviews with these different subjects. Home footage from the Bradleys, footage from other guests, lots of shots of, like, the ocean and cruise ships and water, pictures of the sex worker with graphics to match, and then the, you know, a recording from McKid Douglas saying she wanted to talk to the Bradleys. I think. What did you think was good about this docu series before I tear into it? What. What did you think was. Was good?

B (81:49)

I wasn't impressed with the docu series.

A (81:52)

So you were just like, thumbs down?

B (81:54)

No, I thought it was a waste of time.

A (81:57)

Okay, I agree, but I think this is the first time we actually heard about Amy's sexuality in a. In a public way. I think giving her friends and her girlfriends a voice to speak about who she really was and how, you know, who she was more, more comprehensively, not just, you know, as a daughter or sister, but as, you know, a young woman in her own right. I thought that was very important and I was very glad that they gave those folks a platform. And I think that was important because we, we'd really not heard about that before. And it, it, she seemed like a, I, I think it captured that she seemed like a really cool woman. Like, she seemed like an awesome person. So, I mean, I was glad about that. And I think I, I do, I do feel like it's important to let people know you have to be cautious on cruise ships. You know, stuff can happen and you're not necessarily going to get that law enforcement response that you would in your, you know, wherever you live. And then I think it was, you know, I felt, I felt bad for the Bradleys watching it. They're obviously in a lot of pain.

B (83:01)

What happened really seems to have had a tremendous impact, as you would expect, on their lives going forward. I remember Amy's brothers as seeing how his parents were affected by this made him choose. I'm never going to have a child. So it's had quite a tragic impact on this family. And it made me very sad to see how they still hold out hope and are basically torturing themselves.

A (83:33)

Yeah, it's self harm essentially at this point. And I, I think it also, you know, I just. From the, the sexuality standpoint, you know, Amy being a lesbian, you know, I think, you know, I, I think it's, I think it's important to show that, you know, you could be a very happy family or have a good life, but still have some struggles that no one knows about and that accepting someone for who they are is important and not just pushing that because you might. A family may not feel like they're pushing somebody away, but like, but they are. You are. I mean, you're saying I don't approve of your lifestyle. Well, it's not really a lifestyle. It's more of like she's attracted to women, she wants to be with women, you know, and maybe, maybe if they had had the chance, they would have come around to that, you know, but I think that it's just, it's. We don't want to underplay how hurtful that could be to somebody. So those things I think were important questions raised or important notes raised. So I. Here's what's missing for me. Any real detailed look at what would have happened had Amy fallen in. More information on Curacao's Prostitution laws, Sex trafficking is definitely a problem there, but also there's. There's legalized prostitution. So looking at the context of what sex trafficking actually looks like in the Caribbean would have been helpful. Because if we're just basing it off of, you know, again, like, I remember we were looking at a crime junkie Facebook group once, years ago, and there's people like, I was in the Home Depot parking lot and a Hispanic man stared at me. I was almost sex trafficked. I'm like, mostly, I'm like, not even exaggerating that much. And it was like, oh, my gosh, no, you were not almost sex trafficked. Worst case scenario, you met a creepy guy. That's the worst case. Or you just met a guy that you thought was creepy. And maybe you need to unpack why that is.

B (85:23)

This next item on your list is pretty interesting.

A (85:27)

3. This is one thing that was only barely alluded to at the end. It mentioned that the Bradleys sued Royal Caribbean, and they did, and the case was dismissed. And they didn't mention. Well, they mentioned that, but they didn't mention why the case was dismissed. The judge. Well, they were two lawsuits filed against Royal Caribbean, but the judge ended up finding that the Bradleys, in their interrogatories. So those are like, they're going back and forth. And so, like, Royal Caribbean's attorneys are saying, can you provide us with, like, the witnesses that you think are important to show that, you know, she was alive after this date? And they only provided them with a small handful of them. And what the judge accused them of is you basically provided only the instances where these alleged sightings of Amy seem to indicate she was under duress. There's a whole other sweep of them that. Where people are talking about seeing Amy or someone who looked like Amy and she was alive and not under duress and by herself and doing her own thing. And so you obviously only want to pick and choose things that go for the narrative of sex trafficking. So the judge basically called them dishonest and dismissed the case. That's a brutal way of putting it, but that is what happened. And that to me. And the Bradleys came back and said, well, we didn't want to provide those ones because we didn't think they were important or because we didn't believe them or because we were worried about, like, jeopardizing a rescue mission. And the judge is like, those two things are very different. If they're important, then that's the rescue mission. If they're not important, then who cares? So you know that, that that lawsuit raised some questions about, you know, what's going on with all of that. But the, you know, and here's the thing. When you, when you go out with your case on every media outlet, there's like a disappeared episode. There was an episode with like Beth Holloway, Natalee Holloway's mother. There was the, the America's Most Wanted episode. You're going to get witness sightings, high profile cases. They're gonna, there, there's gonna be people who are calling it in because they're just top of mind or they're making stuff up or whatever. And it's about like separating the wheat from the chaff. And I think they got a lot of chaff and I think they got only chaff because I think she died.

B (87:42)

What's next?

A (87:44)

In September 22, 1999, Frank, a guy named Frank Jones, who claimed to be a private investigator was, said he was going to success. You know, he was going to extract Amy. He needed, you know, like a lot of money, hundreds of thousands of dollars. And when a security contractor went to check out, you know, the work he was doing for the family, he found that he was just like partying and having rum in the Caribbean. So he was scamming the family, stole thousands of dollars in donations, and was ultimately charged with mail fraud in 2002. So he was telling them, I I have eyes on Amy. I just need to have my team of, you know, ex soldiers come get her. And it was just all nonsense. They did not mention that. They didn't mention that Brytag was a co worker of the Bradleys at Illinois Mutual. I thought that was odd. And they were like kind of bashing him. They, they didn't note that. Frankly, it seems like the Bradleys will take things like the Hefner sighting and just pick and choose what they want out of it. They want Amy to be alive and sex trafficked. But when he talked about how she, you know, said that she left the ship for drugs and was stuck there, they were like, oh, well, we dismissed that. Okay, but like, which is it? You know what I mean? Like, you can't, like at a certain point people are hearing what they want to hear. They didn't mention whether anyone has ever been sold into slavery like that. And they didn't mention if anyone has ever been sold to slavery like that, you know, sexual slavery like that on a cruise ship. Did not mention that. And they also did not show the pictures of the SEC work sex worker that didn't look like Amy or that didn't have her tattoos, so they left out a lot. Some things I found very problematic. I thought they framed Britag and Douglas in very hostile kind of ways where there's like dramatic evil music playing. Ooh, suspicious. You know, I mean, I hate when they, I think, I just think that's. I don't know, I don't care for that. They don't. You know, I felt like everything prior to 3:40 and Amy going back into her room is frankly a red herring. We can confirm she went in there, but all the witness site, like, why are we focusing so much on the dance and the party? Like, oh, she was last seen with Alistair Douglas. No, she was last seen with her family in a cabin. She danced with him that evening. I'm sure she interacted with other people. You know, I mean, he's a scapegoat. They make a big deal about all these witness sightings. They fail to mention that in high profile cases that get lots of media attention, people do mistaken witness sightings. You know, these witnesses can be prompted by media attention or they truly think they saw something, but it's not, it doesn't make it very concrete. I, I felt like the Carmichael guy, you know, he may have had a weird interaction with people on a beach in Curacao, but like I, I felt like he was. By the end, he's like getting involved in the website and like, you know, talking about how his conversations with Iva and it's like, you're too into this man. Like, you're not. You've lost any sense of objectivity or perspective. They failed to mention that. I don't understand this. Lori Thompson gives her story about the witness sighting, but then there's like the doc document that shows on the screen that doesn't match what she's saying. So it's like, what's up with that? They include a lot of misinformation about sex trafficking. If you believe the media on sex trafficking, you'd think that middle class white women were just being abducted in droves. Even to this day, I get people coming up and be like, don't you think Lawrence Fury was sex trafficked? And I'm like, no, because that's not how anything works. We're doing people who are actual victims of sex trafficking a disservice by assuming that it happens in this way because it just, it's, it's, it's not accurate and it's fantasy based. Frankly, I thought the graphics that came up to imply the photos were matched to Amy were really gross and wrong. I thought having this cruise ship person, kind of safety person, kind of malign people work on cruise ships struck me as kind of gross. I'm not saying there's no issues, but like, I felt like they could have contextualized her words a bit better. So I'm not even blaming her. It was more of the way it framed it. So I have a couple of questions remaining. One, I mean, I guess did you agree with all my. Did you think I was being too harsh?

B (92:07)

No, I agree completely with everything you said.

A (92:09)

Anything else?

B (92:11)

I think you raised everything salient. There's a lot of stuff left out. I remember years ago, the popular TV series Unsolved Mysteries. Someone referred to it as. It should be called unsolving mysteries because often it seemed to them that they would take a situation where we knew what happened and then they would unsolve it by not presenting every bit of relevant information. And I feel something like that has been going on here.

A (92:45)

I agree. I agree. I thought this was an irresponsible docuseries. My questions that I still have are. One, why was Ronald Bradley Sr. Worried so quickly about Amy? Why didn't he just assume she went for coffee? Why immediately get up and start running around looking for her? She's an adult woman. I. I just. I just want to know. Maybe. Maybe it was really out of her character to get up early. I just don't know. Two, her family's frantic, they can't find her. You know, I get that. But again, if I last saw her on the balcony, I'd be worried about her falling in the water. So why was the concern of don't anyone off the cruise ship. Why. Why wasn't it, let's go do a search of the area. Is that what your instinct would have been?

B (93:33)

It's hard for me to know. I've been trying to imagine, like if we were on a ship together and I wake up and you're not there, what my first thought would be if.

A (93:41)

You saw me on a balcony, went back to sleep, you get up and I'm. I'm not on the balcony anymore. And you were worried. I. Don't you think the first thing you'd be like looking at the water versus Anya's been trafficked.

B (93:58)

It's hard for me to know. I think I would be probably in a blind panic and maybe I'm not thinking my best.

A (94:04)

I guess I just found that odd. I. To me, it's a fair point. It. So the other one is, were there other ways of getting a captive sex trafficking victim off the ship, other than the main gangway which looked rather small in the footage they showed, I imagine there's other crew exits or entrances or maybe not, I don't know, I'd be curious. But either way I still think that's a stupid theory. I find it very odd that Mentar emphasized that there's no way the body would be not found. I just, I, I, I question his statement there. So is Ronald Bradley Truly, completely 100% sure of the 5:30am to 6am thing? Because I think we're resting an awful lot on the impressions of a man who is half asleep. Why is there sinister music playing in the background while Brightag talks? So the family seems suspicious of Bright Tug. Do they suspect he there? A man who also works at the same company as them in the United States is also tied in with the Curacao sex trafficking ring? Because that seems really unlikely. Why is, what did Ronald Senior's letter to Cat Lovelace say? I'd be curious. How bad was it? Basically it sounds pretty bad.

B (95:24)

It sounds awful.

A (95:25)

It sounds terrible. Like it's one thing for them to kind of not make her feel supported for being a lesbian, that's terrible in and of itself. But to write a three page letter about it seems. Is it possible that some sex worker on Curacao just claimed to be Amy? Is it possible, possible that people saw someone who I thought looked like Amy and made, you know, the assume assumption and then things like oh she had green eyes and oh, she had a Tasmanian devil tattoo. Some of those things were coming out very quickly. They could have filled in details without even meaning to do that. I remember a tattoo. Was it Tasmanian devil? Yeah, I think it was.

B (96:06)

Think if you went on a vacation six months or a year ago and during your trip you spent maybe five minutes talking to a particular person, would you be able to reliably identify that person now? I don't think so, no.

A (96:24)

No I wouldn't. Is it possible that Alistair was not the perfect husband or perfect human being but also not a human trafficker?

B (96:31)

That seems absolutely.

A (96:33)

Is there any evidence Alistair was actually in the specific places that so called witnesses claimed he was with Amy during these kind of hard to believe sightings because I mean he was working on the cruise ships. I mean maybe they have long breaks, I don't know. But like, like if they're saying oh he was on a beach in Curacao and he, you know, was in a different island at the time, that seems significant. Is it possible Alistair and Amiko's mom just had a disagreement because he was stressed out after being interviewed by the FBI and a disappearance of a cruise ship passenger?

B (97:04)

Absolutely.

A (97:04)

It wasn't because he's a murderer or a human trafficker. Were the FBI agents who appeared in this docu series edited to be overly sympathetic to the conspiracy theories about her being trafficked? Or are they just trying to be sympathetic to a family that's clearly still grieving? Because I think you and I both felt like they gave way too much credence to some of this stuff.

B (97:25)

Right.

A (97:25)

But they may have just been edited to do so. It's hard to say. Do you have any conclusions on this?

B (97:34)

Well, I've kind of looked ahead at your notes and see what you're about to say, and I. I think you say it pretty well. And so in advance, I endorse your statement.

A (97:46)

Thank you. So, in my view, this is a manipulative docu series from Netflix. It's meant to make the true crime demographic, AKA white women, scared of human traffickers in any situations, even on, you know, being on a cruise ship. And it's meant to sell a salacious story. I think. I think that's horrible. I think they had some good things about getting to know Amy more. So I will say that's a bright spot with this, and I appreciated that. And I think in some ways, it was very revealing about the Bradleys themselves in that. That they're just. They're devastated and they continue to be devastated, and they devastate themselves by clinging to something that's, you know, just didn't happen. So to me, this is a documentary that's inadvertently about how hope can be cruel and, frankly, deadly to people. Sometimes it's some. Sometimes it's better to just surrender all hope and just give in to grief. There's nothing that's going to bring Amy back. And let me say this very bluntly, and I don't mean this in an unkind way. I just mean this. I think this is. This is what somebody needed to tell these. These folks this years ago, but they have wasted years of their lives on pursuing willow wisps instead of healing in. In that mind. In my mind, it's not loving to entertain a person's fantasy or delusion that's actively harming them and is leading them further and further down this destructive rabbit hole. And that's what's happened to the Bradleys.

B (99:27)

And I think it's also worth noting, you know, people grieve, people process things in different ways. And if a person wants to choose to hang on to hope or what have you. Far be it for me to criticize them for that decision, but I think something here goes beyond that, because not only are they keeping hold of their hope, but by doing so, they are causing unnecessary pain to others by basically accusing other people with no evidence of having been involved with murder or other heinous crimes.

A (100:08)

Yeah.

B (100:09)

And that does those people a disservice.

A (100:12)

The Bradleys, in their pain, are reaching out and striking others, and we can all understand why they're in that pain. But that does not give anybody the right to say that somebody is a sex trafficker based on nothing other than the fact that he was dancing with their daughter, you know, hours before she disappeared. And not. Not in a way that it was like, oh, she disappeared from the dance. She disappeared from their cabin. Okay. This is. It's. It's not right. What they're doing is not right. And I don't think they intend to be harmful necessarily. I think they're just in pain, and I think they think they're doing the right thing, but they're not. They're not doing the right thing. They're. And they've tortured themselves, first and foremost, for decades at this point. And that's really unfortunate. You know, I. I'm. I don't think you're gonna ever be whole again after losing your daughter in a tragedy like this. But living with the idea that she's being tortured or kept in some sort of sex trafficking, captivity situation is significantly worse than thinking that she went off the boat, probably lost consciousness on impact and died. That's just a tragedy. You know, she's not in pain anymore, but it's. I don't know. To me, the most telling, inadvertently telling moment in the docu series was when Brad talks about how he and his dad were driving around and they were on this, like, back road in Curacao, and he. They drove past a car and he heard Amy's voice. So they chased down the other car and drove, you know, ran him down. And they finally got the guy out of the car as an old man. And there was no one else in the car. Amy was not in the car. Like, God help them. I could understand wanting to hear her voice again and wanting to see her again and wanting to find her again and wanting to save her and wanting to rescue her, but it's just in their mind, there's nothing out there. She's not waiting for rescue. She's not waiting for anything. She's not hurting anymore. She's gone. She's been gone for a long time and it's time to just remember who Amy was and what she meant to all of these folks instead of trying to get back a ghost. So that was one moment in the docu series that I think summed up the whole thing for me. But anyways, again our hearts go out to the Bradley family. I hope they can heal at some point, but I also my heart goes out to anyone who found themselves in the path of this case and was accused, based on nothing, of being involved in something really heinous. All right, well, that's it for today.

B (102:51)

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A (103:12)

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B (103:35)

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A (103:47)

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