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- [00:00]
Anya Cain
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Anya Cain
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Anya Cain
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Anya Cain
Visit Upwork.com right now and post your job for free. That is Upwork.com to connect with top talent ready to help your business grow. That's up w o r k.com upwork.com Kevin and I both wear glasses. We need them to see, but we're definitely guilty of hanging onto them for way longer than we should, like even after they're a bit battered and scratched. So we put it off as long as possible. We've both been wearing the ones we're currently wearing for probably two or three years. I don't even really remember. It'd be hundreds of dollars to replace them.
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Kevin Greenlee
Thank goodness. There's Zenni Optical. Zenni is an online eyewear shop with lots of stylish prescription glasses, sunglasses and and customizable lens options, all starting at under $30.
- [01:59]
Anya Cain
I adore a pair of oversized square shaped sunglasses, so naturally I ordered the Zenni Sausalito sunglasses. I've been suffering through this summer so far without prescription sunglasses. I'm giving myself a headache either from my blurry vision or from the bright lights. Now I can avoid the headaches altogether and I feel these are really cute sunglasses too. It's a classic style, perfect for summer. I can wear them to the beach or on a long summer walk with Kevin and Nick and Nora, our dog. I would have expected to pay well over a hundred bucks, even more for these glasses and they were like $77. That is an amazing unbelievably low price for prescription sunglasses, let me tell you. And I got those without sacrificing on the quality. That scratched up pair has done its job. Upgrade today with Zenni. Go to zenni.com podcast and use code PODCAST15 for 15% off your first order, plus free shipping on all US orders over $65. The styles sell out, so don't sit on it. That's Z-E-N-N I.com podcast promo code podcast15. I'm Anya, and today we're going to be doing one of our Spin docs episode talking about a new Netflix documentary. Content warning. This episode contains discussion of violence and murder. All right, Kevin, so yesterday you and I watched a a program called the Idaho Murders College Nightmare. This is a Netflix docu series that came out in 2026 and has three episodes delving into the University of Idaho murders. These are, of course, the murders of four young people, four young students at the University of Idaho in Moscow, Idaho. Kaylee Gonsalves, Madison Mogan, Zena Kernodle, and Ethan Chapin. This occurred in 2022 and is a very horrific, barbaric crime that definitely got a lot of national attention. And now there's a documentary about it, so we wanted to check it out. The University of Idaho murders is a case that we've covered pretty extensively over the years. And you know, you want, when you cover a case like this, you kind of, you kind of take it to heart in a way, and you want to see a good documentary come out about it that kind of captures something about the humanity of those who lost their lives in addition to what happened with the case. And that's informative and humanistic. So I was looking forward to this one and very much interested to see if it lived up to that expectation of mine.
- [04:37]
Kevin Greenlee
So let's get to it.
- [04:39]
Anya Cain
My name is Anya Cain. I'm a journalist.
- [04:42]
Kevin Greenlee
And I'm Kevin Greenlee. I'm an attorney.
- [04:44]
Anya Cain
And this is the Murder Sheet.
- [04:46]
Kevin Greenlee
We're a true crime podcast focused on original reporting, interviews, and deep dives into murder cases. We're the Murder Sheet.
- [04:54]
Anya Cain
And this is Spin the Idaho College Nightmare 2020. It.
- [05:39]
Kevin Greenlee
Foreign. Can I say a couple things right here at the top?
- [05:46]
Anya Cain
Please do.
- [05:48]
Kevin Greenlee
I think this documentary was important for a couple of reasons, one for what it is and another for when it came out. And I'll explain, first of all, is I think anyone who follows this case is well aware we didn't get a trial in this case. And maybe we'll talk about that a little Bit later by why that was how things happened. I know that was a decision some people understood, some people were upset about. But no matter how you felt about that decision, the simple fact is we did not get a trial in this case. And so there were a lot of people out there who had stories to tell about their experiences with this case that didn't get a chance to share that. And we as a public didn't get to hear those stories and that evidence. We didn't get all of, of those sorts of details. So this documentary, one of the reasons I think it's important is it's kind of a mini trial because it gives a lot of people the chance to talk and share what happened. And I also think the timing of this is quite important. I think if you follow true crime as closely as most of us do, it's kind of a conveyor belt of new horrors each week or each month. Yeah, right now we're talking a lot about this Lindsay Clancy case. Next month there'd be another horror. A month after that there'd be another horror. And sometimes it's hard to remember, oh, what were we so upset about a year ago or two years ago? And even if we remember some of the bare details, it's hard to remember how affecting it was and how it hurt people at the time. And right now, as we're all aware, Brian Coburger recently filed a motion that he wants to withdraw his guilty plea. And then this documentary comes out. So I think this is a, this is excellent timing as he is in the news again, it is excellent timing for us to get this lengthy, well done reminder of exactly what he did and who he hurt and how it affected people.
- [08:08]
Anya Cain
Well said, Kevin. I think you just hit the nail on the head of why I also have such a approval of this documentary and have such a, you know, a good feeling about it. I feel like this nails him. I mean, we'll talk about a lot of things that this does. Well, I maybe some things where we didn't get as much information, but in general, the case for guilt of this perpetrator is firmly established in this documentary. I feel like it takes people who are conspiracy theorists to task to a certain extent, at least briefly. And that is welcome, that is very welcome in true crime. Right now we need more documentaries like this. We need people who are taking this stuff seriously, who are victim centric, who are doing the responsible thing and who are pointing out that the small minority, small but loud minority of conspiracy theorists in true crime are disgusting, are disgusting cretins who should be shamed and then ignored.
- [09:10]
Kevin Greenlee
You know, Absolutely.
- [09:11]
Anya Cain
And if that sounds harsh to some of our listeners, well, we'll get into maybe why this documentary is certainly reinforce my belief to that extent. So I think first off, we usually start off with the facts and claims. This is a case that, again, you know, when we went into maternal instinct and some of those other cases, I wasn't familiar with the facts with this. You and I are very familiar with the facts of the Idaho case. We were. We've covered it for years. We've covered the various filings, you know, whatnot. So a lot of this stuff really was not novel for me, as someone who has explored the case and has gotten into it. That doesn't mean, though, I found it a waste of my time. Because honestly, when you're a podcaster and you're covering a case and you're going on legal filings, like, things can feel very piecemeal at times. And you're kind of like, okay, we're. We're almost trying to, like, you know, like, what's that thing when, like, like, is it skeet shooting where they shoot something up in the air and then you fire and you hit it? Like, you feel like it's kind of like you're doing that. Like, and it's kind of like all over the place with this. It's like a narrative. It's like a story. You can follow along with it.
- [10:18]
Kevin Greenlee
It.
- [10:18]
Anya Cain
It all. It goes towards this ending and this conclusion. And. And to me, that was helpful. I feel like that made it certainly feel different, even if I didn't feel like I was necessarily getting a ton of new information. For instance, I believe body camera footage came out when they released exhibits. But having it be pieced together in a way that tells a story was powerful. And certainly I feel like I'd gotten to know the victims a little bit through people who knew them and through certainly the victim impact statements at the sentencing hearing. But having a lot of their peers and family members come forward and really highlight who they were was really beautiful. And I was appreciative because I imagine it was difficult for those folks to talk about this. But these young people were just, you know, beautiful, nice young people who were just doing their lives and having a really good time in college. They didn't deserve what happened to them. No one does. But I feel like I got to know them. I love getting to know, like, Ethan was a sucker for, like, country music. Love country music. I loved getting to know Zanna through her friends about how she was the life of the party about how she got together with Ethan, you know, and same with Madison and Kaylee, just their really beautiful friendship that had lasted for years where they really were more like sisters than friends. And all of that was very beautiful, and I really appreciated that. I mean, I think that's necessary to whatever extent possible in a true crime project to memorialize the victim when you can. Sometimes it's gonna be easier. Obviously, in this case, they had a lot of people coming forward saying, I'll talk to you. Sometimes this is gonna be harder, but as much as you can, you should do it. So the first one really starts out largely with this introduction, you know, like the college experience. Now, I mean, I didn't have a college experience like this. I think, you know, I went to a very. My alma mater was very nerdy.
- [12:18]
Kevin Greenlee
We were.
- [12:19]
Anya Cain
We were in the. We were in the library on a Friday night, you know, but, like, this is kind of the quintessential college, American college experience. When you think of that in your mind of, like, what is that? And that's like going to football games, pre gaming, having fun, going to parties, making really good lifelong friends that are going to stick by you forever, you know, thinking about the future, too, you know, ensuring that you're doing well in your studies. You know, like, you. You get all of that. And I mean, I can certainly understand why they subtitled it College Nightmare, because it is a college nightmare. You're living your life. You're kind of becoming an adult, you know. You know, they're all very young, but they're. They're going into adulthood. It's a rite of passage, figuring out their lives. Their families think they're safe. Their families think okay, you know, they're. They're squared away, they're doing well, everything's okay. And. And then a nightmare enters into this. But all of this context, I think, was helpful. What did you think?
- [13:17]
Kevin Greenlee
Yeah, I. I agree. Did a good job of setting the stage. You want to talk about that nightmare? What exactly happened?
- [13:25]
Anya Cain
Absolutely. So, yeah, the nightmare then. So, yeah. And. And I feel like, again, like, even though the broad strokes of. Of this case, I guess, like, are not new to me, it felt fresh and new to kind of get it pieced together in this narrative form.
- [13:44]
Kevin Greenlee
We see things like body cam footage of the first officers on the scene. I. I should hasten to add this body cam footage isn't graphic.
- [13:55]
Anya Cain
No, it's not.
- [13:55]
Kevin Greenlee
Yeah.
- [13:56]
Anya Cain
I will say that since you brought it up, I was going to say this, but that was very Impactful for me, because I think hearing the 911 call, where these, you know, some of the roommates are hysterical, essentially. I mean, understandably. And then, you know, law enforcement, they see a lot of bad things. You know, not even murders, necessarily, but death and destruction and carnage. And hearing them go up the stairs and then come into the scene, and you don't see anything graphic, but hearing them kind of curse and like. Like they're. You. Like you can tell what they're seeing is hitting them really hard. And that's. There's something very disturbing and upsetting about that, but very evocative. So talk.
- [14:39]
Kevin Greenlee
You talk about those 911 calls. One thing that we hear a lot of talk about when people discuss this case is there are people out there.
- [14:48]
Anya Cain
Do you mind if I just set the scene for the murder a little bit?
- [14:50]
Kevin Greenlee
Okay. Okay.
- [14:51]
Anya Cain
So just as a reminder for people, this is happening, the murders happen. All four of these young people are murdered November 13, 2022, in the very early morning hours. Now, that's. That's the subtext, and that's the context. So what. Tell us about what you were going to say?
- [15:10]
Kevin Greenlee
Because the 911 call wasn't made for, I believe, around until about eight hours after the incident. And a number of people have been very critical about the survivors in the house for delaying so long to make that call. I guess, first of all, what do you think about that criticism and what do you feel about how that issue was handled in this documentary?
- [15:34]
Anya Cain
Okay, so, yeah, you're absolutely right. There was this large delay. And let's talk about what exactly these roommates were reacting to. And. And the roommates are named Dylan Mortensen and Bethany Funk. They're, you know, named in here. They've been named several times. So I think at this point, it's okay to name them. These are two young women in college. They're good friends with all the murder victims. They're all living in the house together except for Ethan, but Ethan is Zanna's boyfriend, so he's over a lot. He's. He's staying over. Um, at some point, Dylan hears a scream, hears something falling. Um, here's a guy's voice saying, you're gonna be okay. I'm gonna help you, but in a very weird tone. And she is texting with Bethany, saying, I'm not sure what's going on. And she also gets up at some point and sees a male figure in the living room of the home, all in black, wearing a mask. Their eyes meet. So she's Freaked out by this. So she's texting Bethany. I'm really scared. And Bethany and Dylan kind of talk, talked about how they were sort of considered the house scaredy cats. Like, they would get freaked out about stuff and everyone would laugh at them. So Bethany's like, come down to my room. So she runs down and they stay the night together. They've been, they've been criticized for not calling earlier because if you saw an intruder, if you saw someone who didn't look like they were supposed to be there and you are concerned, why wouldn't you just call the police? And I mean, from the, from the practical perspective, I guess I understand that question and I think it, you know, it's reasonable to ask it. I will say, in my viewpoint, especially hearing this, especially a lot of this stuff, I think can go back to a couple of different roots. These are very young women, okay? They're. They're dealing with something that they've, like, no experience with, a level of trauma that they have no experience with. And they're very frightened. They're also used to being the house scaredy cats where, you know, oh, this thing you got really freaked out about turned out to be nothing. Turned out to be nothing. Turned out to be nothing. So, like, the level of fear and concern that needs to overcome that inertia, I think is pretty significant, especially when you consider, you know, underage drinking party house possibly getting people in trouble with the police, if you call it for no reason. I think that's something to note.
- [17:54]
Kevin Greenlee
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Anya Cain
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- [21:30]
Kevin Greenlee
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- [21:31]
Anya Cain
Hey, we all have our reasons. Don't walk into a surprise if you know you. VRBO terms apply. See vrbo.com trust for details. I think the trauma and fear also may have played a part in this, and I think alcohol may have played a part in this. And I think all of those things conspired together. I think you have to understand that people are really good at convincing themselves it was probably nothing. It freaked me out, but it was probably nothing. What could it be? Nothing.
- [21:58]
Kevin Greenlee
Yeah. And maybe sometimes I'm overly pragmatic, but in a situation like this, one thing I look at is obviously, all of us love the idea of thinking if we're in a crisis situation that is unprecedented, we're the ones that are going to do everything absolutely perfectly in a way that will look wonderful in hindsight, realistically, that that's not. That's not going to happen.
- [22:28]
Anya Cain
No.
- [22:28]
Kevin Greenlee
We're all human beings. So what I look at is what would have happened if they had called 911 immediately? Would any lives have been saved? And the answer is no, because the injuries to these young students were so horrible and so horrifying, There was nothing that could have been done to save them. Would Mr. Kohlberger have been arrested any sooner if they had called a few hours earlier? I don't believe he would have. So I understand why people express frustration and confusion and think, oh, they should have done it differently. But the fact of the matter is, if they had done things differently, nothing would have changed. Those four students would still be lost, and Mr. Kohlberger would still be spending the rest of his life in prison.
- [23:21]
Anya Cain
I think if they'd done something like confront this guy, too, they would be dead.
- [23:25]
Kevin Greenlee
Yes.
- [23:26]
Anya Cain
I mean, like, I think they could have easily been victims number five and six that evening had there been more of an aggressive confrontation. They survived. And I'm going to say this, you know, so that's a. That's what I think about that whole situation. I think it's. If you kind of put yourself in an empathetic position where you're very young, dealing with a lot of anxiety already, dealing with some kind of, like, very fear response, but also used to being having your fears be debunked by your friends in the house who are like, oh, you freaked out about that, and that was nothing. And there's alcohol involved, and it's very late at night. I mean, what my View is you see a strange man even in a mask in 2022 in your house in, in certain contexts that's going to be like if you and I find that guy in our house. Yeah, like that's. That we're in trouble. But a house where there's multiple roommates, maybe people like have a friend over or have a, you know, potential romantic liaison over who's there to canoodle, for lack of a better term. You know, there could be reasons for people being in and out. You know, you see in the body camera footage there's like a beer pong setup. Like this is not a house where it's like completely out of the question that it could just be some male coming to pitch woo at one of the. The various roommates, you know, and just maybe is an awkward guy or maybe he decided to wear a mask because he's. I don't know, like whatever, it's cold out, it's. Again, there's scenarios I can see here where it kind of absolves them and, and certainly we can all pick apart their actions later on, but I think that's wrong. And I, I'm gonna say why? These young women were traumatized by the loss of people they loved. Okay? And then they were raked over the coals by social media for. And they still are. Whatever, like whatever their wrongdoing, whatever their sin, I wouldn't even call it a sin. Whatever their mistakes were, they do not deserve what has happened to them. What they deserve is empathy and understanding because they went through the ringer. And so anyone who piles on them at this point is just a disgusting individual in my view. Like, why is your anger reserved for these young women who have been through hell and not for the perpetrator who did this to their friends? And I can tell you the, the idiots and, and just the uncompassionate losers who go after people like this in a case are the friggin bottom of the barrel in terms of society. And you can bet that those people are so stupid and so self involved that I'm sure if they were ever involved in something like this, they would make all the wrong decisions. So I don't want to freaking hear about the roommates anymore. Leave these women alone. Like, I don't. Why do we relish in making people suffer more when they've been through something like this? I don't know. What so we can feel superior for? Oh, I would have called 911 right away. Guess what? I would have to. But I'm a paranoid morbid. Weirdo. So not everyone is like me. And that's a good thing. Yes, it's a good thing in society.
- [26:42]
Kevin Greenlee
We have three episodes to go through. I think this first episode also had, introduces some of the investigators, highlighted the discovery of the knife, knife sheath, which had some Mr. Coburger's DNA on it, which is obviously a very important turn in the investigation. What were some of the other things you wanted to talk about in episode one before we move on to episode two?
- [27:05]
Anya Cain
Yeah. The primary police people we are hearing from are an FBI or former FBI agent by the name of Ed Jacobson and then Anthony Dinger, who is now the police chief of Moscow. And, and they're, they're giving the information about kind of from the investigative standpoint, maybe find the ninth sheet. Another very important thing is that police kind of talk to Jack Decur. I'm sorry if I'm saying his wrong name wrong. And that's Kaylee's ex boyfriend, with whom she was still at least somewhat close. And you know, this kind of sets up a who done it? Of like, could it have been the ex boyfriend? You always got to look at the ex boyfriend. What happened with that? So you're hearing, you're starting to hear from some of the families, you're starting to hear from everyone. And you, you have this knife sheath, you have the crime scene response. And that's kind of what it's setting everything up essentially. Then we go into episode two.
- [28:02]
Kevin Greenlee
Before we do that, let me just say one thing very, very quickly. The dog, there's a dog in this. And they don't really explicitly spell out what happens to the dogs. Murphy, I wanted to look it up. The dog is fine. Jack, the ex boyfriend has the dog.
- [28:19]
Anya Cain
Yeah, you see the, that's the other thing. You see the, the body cam footage of the police going in and they're like, hi, puppy. Like the poor dog. I mean, Murphy, that breaks my heart. But we kind of get all this rolling and, and, and listen, it is a Netflix documentary. It is a true crime documentary. They do do the kind of like, could Jack have done it? I think within a level that is responsible though, because they're kind of like, what's going on here? And then they rule them out really quickly.
- [28:44]
Kevin Greenlee
So, yeah, I think it was done in a responsible way.
- [28:49]
Anya Cain
I agree.
- [28:49]
Kevin Greenlee
One talking point that wrongful conviction advocates, people who were like big fans of Temujin Kinzu, innocence fraudsters.
- [28:58]
Anya Cain
I don't call them wrongful conviction advocates. They're innocence fraudsters.
- [29:01]
Kevin Greenlee
Temujin truthers. They like to say, oh, there were blinders on. Investigators only considered one person. That's almost never true. Yeah. And I think it is important to show as they. They showed in this, they looked at the ex boyfriend. That's not anything against the ex boyfriend, because anytime there is an ex boyfriend, you have to look at the ex boyfriend. They looked at someone they called hoodie guy who was standing behind a couple of the victims as they were ordering food one night.
- [29:32]
Anya Cain
Can I just say something about hoodie guy? I remember that was a big talking point online. You know, there's this twitch footage from this grub truck and, you know, oh, he's seen behind them and then he's following them. And then it turns out he was hanging out with them because he was their friend and they just decided to go get a grub truck together. And again, like, everyone who piled on that guy was acting like that was the end all, be all should hang their head in fricking shame. I wish there was more. We need to bring back public shaming. I do not understand the lack of shame in true crime. I can guarantee you all those people that jumped on that guy are still making their crappy tiktoks about stuff like, that guy did not deserve it. He didn't do anything wrong. Police had the footage. If something was going to come out of it. They're the ones who know the case. They're the ones interviewing everyone. Let's just let it come out from them. We're not going to sleuth our way to an answer in a case like this. I'm just sick of people. I'm. I get so mad.
- [30:24]
Kevin Greenlee
Sorry. And I just say, I guess we have moved into episode two because the information about them trying to clear the ex boyfriend, trying to figure out what's going on with hoodie guy, that's in episode two. Those are leads that went nowhere. But it's important to follow them because you don't know if a lead is going to go nowhere until you follow it.
- [30:46]
Anya Cain
Yes. And I'm just saying, like, there's certain cases where I think a level of community participation is quite important. That's usually about, like, cases that have gone cold or cases that maybe require some specific information that someone close to the killer might have. And raising awareness and keeping it in the public eye is a good thing, but randomly speculating about people on a foot like a twitch feed and saying this might be important is not helpful. It's just not. You're not going to find anything. No one's going to find Anything like I'm not going to find anything that the police aren't looking at. Okay. Especially not like a couple, you know, like a couple weeks after the murders. Like, let it play out. Good lord. Okay.
- [31:29]
Kevin Greenlee
So there's a lot of this episode. A lot of it revolved around the investigation, including ultimately dead end leads like Hoodie Guy, but then also more profitable leads. We see them analyzing traffic footage, we see things of that nature. They narrow it down. We think this is the car the killer was driving. How do they ultimately get to Brian Coburger? Anya?
- [31:53]
Anya Cain
They ultimately get to him through DNA. So what, what they do, and I really want to, I mean, Moscow Police Department. This is not a big high crime area. The they were, they handled this very well. I think I remember people were going after Brett Payne, the lead detective on this, because they're like, he never solved another murder. It's like he works in a place where there's not a lot of murders. I don't know what to tell you. Like, they did a very good job on this. They brought in Idaho State police right away, said, help us. Give us your resources. They brought in the Federal Bureau of Investigation very quickly. And again, those things can be not such a good thing as we've seen in Delphi. Sometimes when there's too many cooks in the kitchen, it can go wrong. But in this case, they were fortunate enough to get DNA. So they got the DNA from this knife sheath from a snap, the snap of it, single source male DNA profile, and they put it into codis, which is of course, the national database. Nothing. So what they have to do is they have to then go do investigative genetic genealogies. So they get on that and they're looking into how do we figure out who this guy is related to. And they're working very hard on it. But they're also, they're not just like waiting for DNA. They're looking at these different cameras you mentioned. I didn't know this, but apparently, I mean, it kind of makes sense when you think about it. But when you're dealing with nighttime crimes and you have a lot of surveillance footage, it can be tricky to identify the type of car used because the glare of the headlights can be so great that it washes out the details of the car and makes it a bit difficult to determine what kind of car, what make and model are we looking at. But in this case, they were able to kind of really just go through the whole town and track this mysterious car that is seen fleeing the scene, like speeding off. And they're able to see it under a street light. And they figure out the FBI as people who are just analysts, who are vehicle identification analysts. And they were able to figure out it's a Hyundai Elantra between 2011, 2016. Meanwhile, so they're doing all that they're trying to find. And, like, that's when you think about it, that's setting them up in a perfect position for once they get a name because they're going to be able to say, like, does he have access to this car? Like, you know, what's his deal? So then December 19, 2022, they got a. Okay, I want to say this beforehand. You remember this, Kevin. Okay, so murders happen in November, and it's December 19th, little over a month. Do you remember this? That everyone was acting like it was going to be a new Delphi?
- [34:30]
Kevin Greenlee
And by new Delphi, you mean a case that goes on for years?
- [34:34]
Anya Cain
Yes, I remember that.
- [34:35]
Kevin Greenlee
I remember that.
- [34:36]
Anya Cain
It's another Delphi. The cops botched it.
- [34:38]
Kevin Greenlee
People. People were very impatient. We live in an era where we love instant gratification. And the idea of, oh, it's been a month after these crimes and there's been no arrests. That's something that upset a lot of people and frustrated a lot of people. And emotionally, I understand that if something happened of this nature to someone I cared about, I would want the answers immediately. Yeah, absolutely. And I would be outraged if I had to wait an hour. But when you have a little bit more distance from it and look at things more realistically, a good investigation takes time. Even when you have an abundance of good clues, as they had in this case, it takes time. And I don't think going from a murder to an arrest in six weeks, I don't think that's an unusually long or an unreasonable amount of time.
- [35:40]
Anya Cain
Let me tell you something, because for this kind of crime, we're not dealing with, you know, a husband killing a wife, a wife killing a husband. We're dealing with a stranger homicide. A stranger targeting four people that he's not connected to and butchering them and fleeing in the night and taking many pains to conceal his actions. So that is. That is a tougher case to crack because there's no nexus between him and the victims. So, yeah, it taking a bit longer and relying on the DNA kind of makes sense to me. You know, I mean, in Delphi, what was it, five years? You know, that's a long time.
- [36:21]
Kevin Greenlee
The frustrating thing is a month is not that long. To me, the frustrating thing is a month after a Crime takes place. We on the outside have no idea what's going on inside the investigation. It could be an investigation like this one, where everything was whirring along and they were well on their way to making an arrest. It could also be an investigation where on the inside, things are falling apart. People making all kinds of mistakes.
- [36:47]
Anya Cain
Well said.
- [36:48]
Kevin Greenlee
We have no way of knowing.
- [36:50]
Anya Cain
The thing that you. You learn is that journalism can, like, this is why journalism is important, because that can determine, you know, if there's a lot of problems and there's a lot of smoke coming off an investigation. A good investigative journalist can get in there and say, okay, things are the. The wheels are coming off. Things are going wrong. Here's specifically what's going wrong. And I love that kind of thing. I do not believe it's like, don't criticize the police. No, but I want the criticism of the police to be factual and based in reality and not based on vibes or not based on outcome of, like. Well, the outcome is that it's not solved yet, so they must have messed up. That's not always the case. Sometimes you got to give it time. People were way too quick to be like, they made a mistake. They made a mistake. They made a mistake. And it goes back toward this. Like, the police are either like demigods who immediately fix everything and solve everything, or they're bumbling fools, and there's no middle ground. And there's no, like, acknowledgement that sometimes aspects of this take some time, and that doesn't mean things are going wrong. I have no criticism for family members of victims who get really frustrated with police. That's not what I'm addressing right now. They have the right to feel however they want to feel. However they feel, you know, that's fine. But as far as the members of the public, this case certainly made me feel personally like, hey, I'm not going to make any assumptions, because, you know, I confess I worry about every case that's not solved. Like, is something going wrong? What happened? Was there mistakes? Were there mistakes made? But for me, it made me like, okay, I can think that, and that's fine. And maybe holding that in the back of my head, I might be right sometimes. But do I need to be jumping in and saying, the Idaho police messed everything up? No, because I just don't have enough information. And this is a case where things were whirring along like. And they were, I feel, did a very good job with how they put this together. I thought their probable cause that David was great and Yeah, I commend them. You know, that's my feeling. I mean. Yeah, I mean, it just. It's just sad though, because I think these people kind of. We get so impatient with this stuff that I think it can actually not be a great thing.
- [39:08]
Kevin Greenlee
Yeah. So episode three started out with the arrest, basically.
- [39:12]
Anya Cain
Yeah. They identify Coburger through this DNA and they. I enjoyed getting to know more about, like, exactly how they got the DNA from, like, going to the house and all this stuff. I mean, we knew this, but, like, hearing it be described by the people dealing with it was exciting. And the, you know, the trash pull that they did on him and, you know, they're convinced this is definitely the right guy. And then this episode kind of is about getting to know this perpetrator more and like, what his deal is because, you know, he's never confessed or he. Well, I mean, he did. He's never given like a detailed confession. And so it's like, what could have motivated a guy to do this? And they learn all about him that this is a PhD student studying criminology, has a lot of personality quirks, seems to be kind of a creepy guy with women and misogynist to boot. And he's purchased the KA Bar knife recently, although they never find it. His alibi is that he was wandering around stargazing. Yeah, sure. And, you know, they find out that he dealt with visual snow, you know, but he feels like he can't really connect to other people because of it. He is. Is known to be obsessed with cleanliness and obsessed with dieting and has had struggles like going through a heroin addiction. Came from a seemingly normal working class family. They talked to one of his classmates, which I thought was interesting about how, you know, he just was just obsessed with Dr. Katherine Ramslin's class about, you know, she's a forensic psychologist who's, you know, written books about Dennis Raider and things like that. And he just was really locked in for that class. And people don't like him. He's very curt, argumentative, talks down to women, doesn't seem to like women. And I thought his classmate had a pretty good point. Like, I think he just wanted to brutalize some women. People talk about involuntary celibacy, the incel culture. I mean, I don't know if he really qualified as one of those. If that's exactly what explicitly motivated him. But to me, it's kind of part of the same genre of men who resent women and want to punish them for perceived slights or rejections that can come from an individual woman, but could also just come from your anger towards women in general. And you're using, you know, you're taking it out, your feelings about all women on a specific woman, you know, And I think when you look at these Idaho victims, they're young women who are living the life and are enjoying themselves and carefree, having a good time. And for a certain type of male offender, it's like they want women sexually, but they don't know how to make that happen for themselves. So they get angry and they want to attack and. And they want to show their superiority and their domination through violence. To me, it's like, I thought the. The classmate hit the nail on the head. We also get, you know, information from Heather and Jared Barnhart of celebre about how this guy, like, had nothing on his, you know, except for a lot of searches about serial killers, which he is a criminology student. And frankly, if you searched my computer, it might look pretty weird, too. But, you know, I. But given the context, I don't know. At one point, they said something interesting. They said the DNA on the knife sheath alone is not enough to convict. We need all this other stuff. What did you think about that statement, Kevin?
- [42:47]
Kevin Greenlee
I think that's a valid point. The DNA on the knife sheath ultimately just proves what he touched the knife sheath at some point.
- [42:56]
Anya Cain
To me, that would have convicted him. Like, I mean, that alone would have convicted him. Why is your knife sheath in a. With a brand that you bought on Amazon recently that now we can't find?
- [43:07]
Kevin Greenlee
Here's the thing to remember. If you are a good prosecutor, if you're a good police investigator, you want to have the attitude that no matter how much I have, it's not quite enough. You always want to be looking for more and more things that tie your suspect to the crime scene.
- [43:28]
Anya Cain
I mean, that makes sense. It's like that's. Was that song More, More, more.
- [43:35]
Kevin Greenlee
I guess this kind of loops back to what I said at the top of this episode, which is, we didn't get a trial in this case because Mr. Kohlberger ended up taking a plea deal. There were a number of people, including some family members of the victims, who were upset by that.
- [43:53]
Anya Cain
Yeah, I want to talk about that. Specifically the Gonsalves family in this documentary. They spoke out, and they were very involved in this. Olivia Kaylee's sister was interviewed. So was her parents, Kristi and Steve. And they were very unhappy about the plea deal.
- [44:09]
Kevin Greenlee
They were.
- [44:09]
Anya Cain
They said. They basically said they were devastated. What did you think about That I,
- [44:13]
Kevin Greenlee
I, I feel bad for them. And I understand from an emotional basis why that would be upsetting. And I can very easily imagine that if I was in that situation, I might feel very much the same way they do. Uh, these are complicated issues and complicated questions. Again, if you're a good prosecutor, sometimes you want to choose the course of action that reduces the element of chance. You never know if you're going to get a hung jury. You never know what might happen, what crazy rulings might happen. And if you have the opportunity to get someone to admit guilt and agree to spend the rest of their life behind bars and not make any appeals, that's. That's not a bad deal. And I, and I could understand why they would take that, and I understand why that offer would be made. And I don't think it was a bad thing.
- [45:16]
Anya Cain
I think Bill Thompson did nothing wrong. I mean, I'm just gonna be super blunt. At the same time, I do not begrudge the Consalva's family for feeling differently. I think it was important that the documentary also included an interview with Jasmine Kernodle, who, of course, is the older sister, Zanna. And she felt the opposite. She said the plea deal saved them a lot of emotional trauma, years of fighting legally for justice. They were able to, in her view, she was able to be done with it and leave this behind and start to heal and start to remember Zanna. Beyond just. This is a legal crisis we're dealing with. So I think the documentary showed the other side of this. Other families were happy about the deal, and they wanted the deal and they wanted this to be done, and they wanted him go. To go away for life. You know, I'm gonna say this. I feel like there's often, at least in the public discourse, and the, and the Gonzalez family may know this, and they may still, like, they may know all of this and say, like, hey, we know this, but even despite that, we still want him dead. And if I were in their shoes, I would probably feel the same way, because I would want this guy off the planet. I think I'd probably be okay with the plea deal, but on some level, emotionally, I would want this guy dead and in hell so that I say that. So they may know this, but to me, there's a huge difference in the public's imagination about what the death penalty sounds like it should be and what it is. And I think the death penalty can sound like. We, we get all the ultimate revenge on this evil person who killed our loved ones, and it's swift and it's quick and then he's dead and you know, we're done. The reality is we are executing people who committed their crimes in the 1980s right now. And they're elderly and it's taken years to get anything done because of the nature of the death penalty. There's so much due diligence that goes into. There's habeas stuff, there's post conviction related. Like this stuff goes on forever. You, I think my understanding is you typically like get more automatic appeals or there's more pellet options once you are convicted and facing death because they want to make sure they don't execute anyone who they shouldn't be executing. I'm Kiana and I leveled up my business with Shopify. Once I figured out that Shopify was a thing, I never turned back. I can create a site with my eyes closed. Shopify thinks ahead of us, you know, and it thinks about the customer more than anything. Every day I'm thinking about some other new business, but Shopify is doing it to me because it's so easy to use. It's like I can't stop. I'm addicted. Start your free trial@shopify.com
- [48:00]
Kevin Greenlee
evening.
- [48:01]
Anya Cain
Buyer's remorse. Buy a new car.
- [48:03]
Kevin Greenlee
I'll be moving in.
- [48:05]
Anya Cain
Let's get started. Sorry, I think there's been a mistake. I bought it from Carvana.
- [48:09]
Kevin Greenlee
You what?
- [48:10]
Anya Cain
Yeah, great price. I even have seven days to love it or return it. So there's no, no, no buyer's remorse. More like buyers rejoice.
- [48:19]
Kevin Greenlee
I guess I'll let myself out.
- [48:21]
Anya Cain
Congratulations. I mean it. Buyers rejoice.
- [48:24]
Kevin Greenlee
Buy your car.
- [48:25]
Anya Cain
Today on Carvana. Limitations and exclusions may apply. See our seven day return policy@carvana.com and it drags it on for decades, like decades. And it also at every turn, when you're having these more appellate options, when you're having more options, you know, it could get overturned and put to life anyway or overturn and you got a new trial. I mean all these things can happen. It's not cathartic. I don't think in most cases because of this, because it's like years by the time you get anywhere. And the whole while you have to be dealing with this guy coming back in the news, there's another thing, there's another trial, there's another appeal. There's another last minute thing where they're delaying, delaying, delaying the execution. And I would hate to go through that as a victim's family member personally. And I, I've got to imagine that you Know, people can still see all that and say, hey, I, I take that as long as he ends up dead at the end of the day. But I just think the reality is that a lot of people like, you know, he could be sentenced to death and a lot of the parents in this case could still pre decease him.
- [49:32]
Kevin Greenlee
Right.
- [49:32]
Anya Cain
Because it just takes that long, you know. But I would never tell a family how to feel. They have absolutely every right for the anger and to feel like this was the wrong choice and to feel wronged. And I, I think that's very understandable. You know, they're not, they're not wrong. There's no wrong way to feel that way. I just think when we're, we're the members of the public like ourselves who are outside the situation, we should understand the context of decisions like this and we should understand how, why people who are other victims, family members, may feel differently. Because you're not just dealing with one family. That's what makes it so complicated. You're dealing with four families.
- [50:11]
Kevin Greenlee
Right.
- [50:12]
Anya Cain
And they all might feel subtly differently.
- [50:14]
Kevin Greenlee
I think you have a list here of docu series elements. Do you want to run through that?
- [50:18]
Anya Cain
Sure. I will start out, I'll end with. It ends with the sentencing hearing. I thought Olivia Kelly's sister did such a great job with this. I mean, she really gave it to him and I thought that was amazing. She did wonderfully. And they really just kind of get into the trauma faced by law enforcement over this, the trauma faced by the families. And they kind of ended on a very humanistic note of that. Like these kids were all so alive and enjoying life and living it to the fullest. And the way that they can be celebrated is for people who love them to do the same. So as far as the interviewees, the ones I counted were Olivia, Kaylee Gonzalez's sister, Steven Christie, her parents, Tammy Butz, her aunt, and Cheryl, her grandmother, as well as from, from Zanna's family. It was Jeff and Jasmine Kernodle, her father and sister. The other families did not participate in this at all. Anthony Dollinger was the Chief of police. Casey Johnson, Zanna's friend Cooper Atkinson, Ethan's friend Bailey Miller, Kaylee's friend, Maya Hippensteel, Xana's friend Peter Elgor Raja, Ethan's friend, the Vice Provost and Dean of Student affairs for University of Idaho, Blaine Echols, the Washington State University Police chief. Gary Jenkins, Ed Jacobson, a former FBI special agent. Lily Carabin, the perpetrator's classmate, Heather and Jared Barnhart of Celebrite and Brian Enten, a journalist. So I think that was pretty. Most of everyone who talked. The footage that they included, lots of talking heads, as we mentioned, lots of interviews, social media posts and videos, including a lot of ones of the victims, which was great. Home videos of the victims, newsreels and footage, some crime scene pictures, but nothing graphic. And B roll of the campus area and then body camera footage and surveillance footage showing, you know, from the case and also showing law enforcement's response to the crime. So that was, you know, I thought it was pretty comprehensive, kind of very traditional true crime documentary in many ways. This one's not like break like breaking any conventions or necessarily rewriting, reinventing the wheel. But it's doing a very good job, I think.
- [52:36]
Kevin Greenlee
What's the deal with this doc on you? What's good?
- [52:38]
Anya Cain
I thought this was extremely well told, comprehensive. I felt like I understood the victims. I feel like I understood the investigation. I feel like I understood the why, you know, this guy did it. I thought it was very. I like a procedural. I've criticized other ones where it's like, well, we didn't really see the investigation. We are getting to see the investigation here and I appreciated that. I like that. It took a lot of creators to task. They talk extensively about what Bethany and Dylan and Jack and hoodie guy and other friends of the victims and like the, the fraternity across the street, what they all went through and how you have just these like low, like low down, disgusting people talking and saying whatever they want about them online without any evidence, without any fact. This was a case that at least saw one defamation lawsuit against a tiktoker from a professor. I want to see more of that going forward. I think some of these people need to be slapped down so their idiotic friends also realize, you know, knock it off. Sometimes you need to put some heads on spikes in order to get people to stop doing this antisocial crap. I mean, it made me so mad hearing this is a young man. Jack has lost, you know, this, this girl, this woman he loved and then he. And he's still close with her family and he's being accused on top of everything. Can you imagine that if someone you loved was going through hell and then people were piling on because they're just too stup stupid to think about things for like more than one minute or, or worse because they don't really care. They just want attention. Like if I could shoot these people into the sun and just get rid of them for all of true crime, I would do it. In a heartbeat. Like, I, I just, I, I'm just figuratively speaking. I don't want to actually kill anybody, but like, like get them out of here. And if you like, the best thing you can do is block and ignore them. But also like, you know, if they want to be going around shaming and bullying people, I think turnabout is fair play. So just, just a thought.
- [54:47]
Kevin Greenlee
So what was.
- [54:48]
Anya Cain
And then I like the humanistic perspective of just living life to the fullest and really memorializing the victims.
- [54:53]
Kevin Greenlee
What was missing is there really wasn't much, if anything from the prosecutors or the defense attorneys. I imagine the reason for that is attorneys can be very reluctant to participate in something like this until they are completely confident it's absolutely all over. And nothing they say or do can create problems either for their client or for justice. As you mentioned earlier, there were some families that didn't participate.
- [55:19]
Anya Cain
The Chapin's, the Mogans, didn't participate.
- [55:21]
Kevin Greenlee
Yeah. And I understand that. I can understand if you're a victim's family member, why you might want to participate and share the stories of your loved ones. I can also understand why you might want to keep that private and to yourself. Different people mourn and process in different ways.
- [55:38]
Anya Cain
I think they, there was limited investigative stuff because they really seem to be going mostly through Dahlinger and Jacobson. But I thought that was fine. I mean, that's not a criticism, but we are hearing most of it. We're not like, seeing the depth of investigation. I would have really liked to hear from Brett Payne. I would really like to hear from some of the Idaho State Police. People having a more robust law enforcement presence could have, I think, highlighted how robust this investigation was. But again, I could understand from their perspective, like, hey, let's just have these two guys be the spokespeople. Did you find anything problematic about this one?
- [56:13]
Kevin Greenlee
Not really. I, I admit I, I don't know if it's apparent from earlier episodes of Spin docs. I've never been a person who's really watched a lot of true crime documentaries for whatever reason.
- [56:24]
Anya Cain
I'd say you kind of low key hate true crime documentaries.
- [56:27]
Kevin Greenlee
This is, this is probably one of the better ones I've seen.
- [56:31]
Anya Cain
Yeah, I think this was probably your favorite. I, I definitely really appreciated it. I didn't find anything super problematic. I mean, I guess if you're stretching, you could say it doesn't really get that much into like, Coburger's point of view. But my argument is, who the hell cares? Okay. Also, like all these People saying, oh, well, why did he do it? Why did he do it? Because he hates women. Guys, it's not that deep. And you know what? Frankly, like, at a certain point, like, what do we want? Like, we want the guy to spell everything out, like, from the family's perspective. I understand that. Because they want to know why he targeted these kids. That's a different thing. As far as general motive, to me, it's extremely obvious and not really worth that much. It's, it's just not that deep. It's like he might think it's deep, but I, I, it's just the same misogyny we see every day in true crime. And I don't find it particularly interesting, you know, like, I'd read an interesting book from a forensic psychologist on it. But as far as, like, needing him to spell it out for me, like, I kind of got it.
- [57:32]
Kevin Greenlee
Yeah, we got it.
- [57:34]
Anya Cain
Questions I would have. Having watched this, what went into Bill Thomas Thompson's, Bill Thompson's decision to do the plea deal? I'd be curious, like, to hear from his perspective. I imagine it was a hard decision. Obviously, he got a lot of criticism from it from the Gonzalez family. Were there other families that. It sounds like other families were supportive of it. What was that like to make that call and what went into his decision? I'd be curious about. Why did the Gonzalez family think of the fact that other family members, like Jasmine appreciated the plea deal? Does that, does that inform their thinking on it, even if they're very opposed to it? I'd be curious about how these families are trying to heal. Like, are some of them doing different things? Are some of them more of, like. It sounds like some are more private now. Sounds like some want to speak out. You know, what do the families think can be done from the public in order to, I guess, like, memorialize these, these young people whose lives were lost and like, are there organizations that they're looking at or starting, you know, things like that? I think maybe the Gonsalves family has started something. So how can people support that mission? And then my other question is, how do we stop these online people from doing this stuff to people? Like, I mean, as a community, what can we do? Like, I just, I am so disgusted. This shouldn't be happening to Jack or Dylan or Bethany or the victim's families. I'm sure the victims families have gotten a lot of flack from, from the pro burgers. How do we make, like, Satan Patrick and like, drive the snakes into the sea? How do we get him out of here. You know, I, I want to know, I want to know people's thoughts because I'm sick of it. I'm disgusted with it. It doesn't need to be happening. And I think as much as possible, we need to socially isolate these people. And, you know, I, I, I think it makes true crime as a whole look really bad. And as long as people are staying silent about it, I think that's complacency and we're, that's complicity. Anyways, that's that documentary. I mean, I would recommend it. I think anyone interested in the case, I thought it was well done and I'm glad we watched it. But that is the Idaho murders, College Nightmare 2026 on Netflix. Thank you all so much for listening.
- [59:56]
Kevin Greenlee
Thank you so much. Thanks so much for listening to the Murder Sheet. If you have a tip concerning one of the cases we cover, please email us@murdersheetmail.com if you have actionable information about an unsolved crime, please report it to the appropriate authorities.
- [60:17]
Anya Cain
If you're interested in joining our Patreon, that's available at www.patreon.com murdersheet. If you want to tip us a bit of money for records requests, you can do so at www.buymeacoffee.com murdersheet. We very much appreciate any support.
- [60:41]
Kevin Greenlee
Special thanks to Kevin Tyler Greenlee, who composed the music for the Murder Sheet and who you can find on the web@kevintg.com if you're looking to talk with
- [60:52]
Anya Cain
other listeners about a case we've covered, you can join the Murder Sheet Discussion group on Facebook. We mostly focus our time on research and reporting, though we're not on social media much. We do try to check our email account, but we ask for patience as we often receive a lot of messages. Thanks again for listening.