Stigma and Psychosis: A Conversation About Mental Illness

Summary

Podcast Summary: Murder Sheet - "Stigma and Psychosis: A Conversation About Mental Illness"

Overview In the June 26, 2025 episode of Murder Sheet, hosts Áine Cain and Kevin Greenlee delve into the intricate and often misunderstood realm of mental illness, focusing specifically on stigma and psychosis. This episode features a heartfelt and enlightening conversation with Michelle and her daughter, who courageously share their personal experiences with schizophrenia and schizoaffective disorder. Through their narrative, the podcast aims to dismantle misconceptions, highlight the importance of support systems, and advocate for compassionate discourse within the true crime community.

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1. Setting the Stage: Understanding Stigma and Psychosis [04:05 – 04:56] The episode begins with Áine and Kevin addressing the pervasive stigma surrounding mental illness in the context of true crime. They acknowledge that terms like "insanity" often misconstrue complex mental health issues, leading to further alienation of those affected.

Michelle's Daughter:
"Sometimes mental illnesses and psychopathy get used interchangeably. All of this ends up further alienating those with mental illnesses." [04:36]

2. Introducing the Guest: Michelle and Her Daughter [05:20 – 06:41] Áine and Kevin warmly introduce Michelle and her daughter, who has lived with schizophrenia and schizoaffective disorder for her entire life. Their presence underscores the podcast's commitment to authentic and informed discussions.

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3. Personal Journey: Living with Schizophrenia and Schizoaffective Disorder [06:45 – 15:25] Michelle's daughter opens up about her lifelong battle with mental illness, detailing her early struggles, periods of homelessness, substance abuse, and eventual acceptance of her diagnosis in her 40s.

Michelle's Daughter:
"I thought once I got clean and sober, the symptoms stayed. And that's kind of when I started to realize, hey, maybe it's very confusing." [10:35]

She emphasizes the unpredictable nature of her condition, likening it to a "dimmer switch" that fluctuates based on stress levels. Her daily life involves managing paranoia, delusions, and disorganized thinking, all while maintaining a supportive family environment.

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4. The Misconceptions: Mental Illness vs. Violence [15:25 – 16:23] A critical segment where the misconception that mental illness equates to violence is addressed.

Michelle's Daughter:
"I have never been violent a day in my life, and I don't know anybody that has. I think we're more susceptible to being manipulated and taken advantage of." [15:36]

Michelle:
"There are a lot of non-mentally ill people who are very violent. It's not that if people are violent, they may just be violent." [19:07]

This discussion highlights that individuals with mental illnesses are more often victims rather than perpetrators of violence, challenging prevalent stereotypes.

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5. Navigating Psychosis: Signs and Experiences [20:08 – 31:09] Michelle's daughter delves deeper into the nuances of psychosis, differentiating it from common portrayals. She describes vivid delusions and hallucinations, emphasizing the internal chaos that accompanies these episodes despite appearing calm externally.

Michelle's Daughter:
"When I'm in psychosis, that's a wholly different looking experience. And that is going to probably look strange to people." [28:32]

She shares personal anecdotes, such as believing in alien invasions and feeling persecuted by neighbors, illustrating the profound disconnect between internal experiences and external appearances.

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6. The Role of Support Systems [31:06 – 37:00] The conversation underscores the pivotal role of family and support systems in managing mental illness. Michelle's daughter credits her loving husband and supportive family for helping her navigate daily challenges and psychotic episodes.

Michelle's Daughter:
"I have a very loving husband. I have three beautiful daughters. I have a good mom, sister, and friends. That’s taken years to be able to maintain that though. It's so important." [15:25]

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7. Mental Illness in the True Crime Narrative [37:00 – 45:12] A significant portion of the episode critiques how true crime media often misrepresents mental illness, conflating it with psychopathy and thereby perpetuating harmful stereotypes.

Michelle's Daughter:
"Half the time, maybe even 90% of the time, I'm like, that's called psychopath. That's called a psychopath. That's not called a schizophrenic or psychosis." [34:45]

She argues that true crime stories frequently highlight psychopaths rather than individuals genuinely struggling with mental health issues, thereby skewing public perception.

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8. Legal Implications and the Insanity Defense [45:12 – 58:37] The discussion transitions to the legal system's handling of mental illness, particularly the use of the insanity defense. Michelle's daughter critiques the narrow legal definitions that often fail to accurately represent mental health conditions, limiting the effectiveness of this defense.

Michelle's Daughter:
"Andrea Yates, who we all can say 100% needed that defense. And, and we've... I have empathy for her. What. How. How sad is that?" [56:59]

They explore historical and contemporary applications of the insanity defense, highlighting its inconsistencies and the challenges it poses for individuals with legitimate mental health struggles.

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9. Compassionate Conversations and Reducing Stigma [58:37 – 60:38] In the concluding segments, Michelle and her daughter offer actionable advice for the true crime community and the general public on fostering compassion and understanding towards those with mental illnesses.

Michelle's Daughter:
"People who are really suffering from mental health issues... need compassion and they need empathy more than anything else." [44:35]

They advocate for replacing stigmatizing language with empathy-driven communication, emphasizing that violent behavior should not be automatically attributed to mental illness.

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10. Final Thoughts: Hope and Understanding [60:38 – End] The episode wraps up with a reaffirmation of the importance of support, understanding, and dismantling harmful stereotypes. Michelle's daughter expresses hope that sharing her story will help others feel seen and understood.

Michelle's Daughter:
"We're not violent people. Unless, you know, like you said, you're just violent because you're violent. But we're not violent people. We're just regular people and we just want what everybody else wants." [58:49]

Áine Cain:
"I feel like this is going to make people feel seen, if that makes sense." [59:19]

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Key Takeaways

• Distinguishing Mental Illness from Psychopathy: Mental illnesses like schizophrenia and schizoaffective disorder are often misunderstood and incorrectly associated with violent behavior, leading to increased stigma and isolation for those affected.

• Importance of Support Systems: A strong, understanding support network is crucial for individuals managing severe mental health conditions, aiding in daily functioning and coping with episodes of psychosis.

• Media Representation Matters: True crime media frequently perpetuates harmful stereotypes by conflating mental illness with psychopathy, which misinforms the public and exacerbates stigma.

• Legal System Limitations: The insanity defense is constrained by narrow legal definitions that do not adequately capture the complexities of mental health, often undermining individuals who genuinely need support.

• Advocacy for Compassion: Hosting compassionate and informed conversations about mental illness can foster understanding, reduce stigma, and encourage those suffering to seek the help they need.

Notable Quotes

• "People who are really suffering from mental health issues... need compassion and they need empathy more than anything else." — Michelle's Daughter [44:35]

• "I have never been violent a day in my life, and I don't know anybody that has." — Michelle's Daughter [15:36]

• "A lot of laypeople are talking about a pretty complex topic. But true crime as a whole... have definitely made mistakes in this area." — Áine Cain [04:26]

Conclusion This episode of Murder Sheet serves as a poignant reminder of the profound impact stigma has on individuals with mental illnesses. By sharing personal stories and dissecting media and legal portrayals, Áine and Kevin foster a more nuanced and compassionate understanding of mental health within the true crime discourse. Listeners are left with a call to action: to approach discussions of crime and mental illness with empathy, accuracy, and a commitment to dismantling harmful stereotypes.

Transcript

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Quince.com msheet content warning this episode contains discussion of murder and mental illness.

[Michelle]

This episode also contains discussion of suicide. If you are going to cover crime, mental illness is a topic you must grapple with. From insanity defenses to the discourse around mass shootings to the discussion of serial killers, mental illness gets thrown around a lot. Sometimes. The true crime community does not do such a good job with these discussions.

[Anya Cain]

We don't think that's necessarily intentional. Most people are well meaning. There are just a lot of laypeople talking about a pretty complex topic. But true crime as a whole, and we are certain we have definitely made.

[Michelle]

Mistakes to this effect too, can contribute to the stigma around mental illness. Mental illness gets touted as a possible explanation for violent behavior even in the absence of concrete evidence pointing to a.

[Anya Cain]

Link in specific cases.

[Michelle]

Sometimes mental illnesses and psychopathy get used interchangeably. All of this ends up further alienating those with mental illnesses.

[Anya Cain]

We can always do better.

[Kevin Greenlee]

So we were thrilled when we heard from a listener with a diagnosed Mental disorder. Michelle so generously offered to speak to us about her experiences so we could all be better educated about this topic. She sat down with Anya for an interview. Michelle's daughter did as well to be a source of support because Michelle wanted someone to be able to jump in if she got too far afield.

[Michelle]

We are hoping that this conversation will be enlightening for our listeners as well as perhaps helpful to those dealing with mental illness, their own or that of a loved one. My name is Anya Cain.

[Anya Cain]

I'm a journalist.

[Kevin Greenlee]

And I'm Kevin Greenlee. I'm an attorney.

[Michelle]

And this is the Murder Sheet.

[Kevin Greenlee]

We're a true crime podcast focused on original reporting, interviews and deep dives into murder cases. We're the Murder Sheet.

[Michelle]

And this is Stigma and Psychosis, a conversation about mental illness. Sam well, first of all, thank you so much for joining us today. We really, really appreciate it.

[Michelle's Daughter]

Thank you for having me.

[Michelle]

I guess to start off with, can you tell us a little bit about yourself?

[Michelle's Daughter]

My name is Michelle and I am a 50 year old mother of three and I suffer from schizophrenia, schizoaffective, and I have for my entire life. So I'm here to talk about what that feels like for me and how that might look to. You know, for me that was difficult.

[Michelle]

I know a lot of people probably have heard of that before, but they may not know exactly what that is. Can you, can you describe that condition and just sort of what that means for, for the laypeople?

[Michelle's Daughter]

So it is a thought disorder. I have very disorganized thinking sometimes. I'm not constantly inside. People might think psychosis, that is not what this illness is. I do have, have suffered from psychosis, but it's, it's periodical and it comes in a, in a whole entire way. It's not something I'm experiencing every day. Every day. It's mostly I have a lot of paranoia which can lead to dis. Delusions. I'm very disorganized. I have to really stay on track. It might look like ADHD sometimes because I'm just kind of. Or on the other end I might just be sitting there not doing anything at all with no stimulus. It's a very, I like to say it's on a dimmer switch depending on the stress level that I'm experiencing on how I'm going to. Sometimes I'm just fine. So there is that too. Social stuff is very difficult for me. I'm very, my stress level gets triggered like that, then I can just go off. But am I making any Sense?

[Michelle]

Yes.

[Michelle's Daughter]

Okay. You're.

[Michelle]

You're doing great.

[Michelle's Daughter]

So on a daily basis, it's kind of just. I'm trying to. I don't work. I have an extraordinarily solid support system. My family is very supportive. They go to groups, they understand the illness. So on a daily basis, I'm just trying to clean or do laundry or do regular things, which is very difficult for me sometimes. And what I'm fighting is a lot of paranoia on a day in, day out basis, not so much psychosis. But that can happen. And when that does happen, that can look like I might think my family's trying to poison me. I might think they're trying to do something to kill me. It's so many things. It's not like somebody's sitting next to me and I'm having a relationship with a person that I see that's not there. That's not what it is for me. I don't know how to really explain that. A lot of people are misguided in that.

[Michelle]

Yeah, it seems like there's not a lot of understanding. And what you said is so important where psychosis, it sounds like. And correct me if I'm wrong, psychosis can be a symptom. It's not the underlying condition here. It's a symptom of a condition.

[Michelle's Daughter]

It's not what I'm going through on a daily basis.

[Michelle]

And it sounds like. And again, correct me if I'm wrong. These things, it can manif. It can look a little bit differently in different people, depending on stress level or what symptoms they're more of grappling with.

[Michelle's Daughter]

Right. And I think it's my understanding, at least for me and the people that I know from groups and stuff, our stress is very different because just being in public is a stressor for me. Having more than three people around me is a stressor for me. People, people stress me out. Noise, lot of things can make my anxiety go up and then I can start getting triggered going back a little bit.

[Michelle]

When did this start manifesting itself for you in your life, where you started noticing some of these symptoms and sort of seeking that help?

[Michelle's Daughter]

So this is going to be very difficult. My. I started running away at 12, living on the streets at a very young age. Whenever a real diagnosis came in, I would say I was in and out of hospitals as a teenager and in my 20s and in my 30s. Couldn't tell you exactly when I was diagnosed because I wouldn't have accepted it. Um, I did not accept my diagnosis until my 40s. But it started very, very young. And I would just leave my house. I would leave with no shoes, no money. And then, of course, when you're 12, and I lived in Los Angeles, and so all of that stuff happened. Drugs, all the things you can imagine that would go with a childhood like that. Dropped out of school, had no education, all of those things. So I knew probably in my 20s that something was wrong. But to be able to say it was this. I really didn't believe it because I was doing so many drugs, I was doing so many other things. I thought once this. Once I got clean and sober, the symptoms stayed. And that's kind of when I started to realize, hey, maybe it's very confusing. It's a confusing life. It's hard to put a time management on. It's hard to put into a box and say, oh, this is how it went. But I would say, probably my 20s, I was diagnosed. I can say my. When I got pregnant with my daughter, I was on the streets and I knew I was pregnant. And I sat on a Catholic church step that I used to go to all the time, and I sat there and I said, okay, what am I going to do here? And I said, I'm not going to do this to another life, so we need to get some help here. And I think I felt pretty. I got clean and sober. I stayed in a home, and I had a healthy pregnancy. And I remember after she was born, I went into Walmart to get some things, and I couldn't leave. I was confused. I was hearing things everywhere. I had her, and I couldn't leave for like an hour and a half, and there was no drugs on board. I was just super confused. And that's when I said, okay, there's something way more going on here than drugs and alcohol.

[Michelle]

Absolutely. And good for you. And congratulations on. On your sobriety. That's incredible.

[Michelle's Daughter]

Thank you. Yeah.

[Michelle]

I. I'm curious, in terms of mitigation of this over the years, what has that looked like? What does treatment and mitigation looked like?

[Michelle's Daughter]

So I've had extensive therapies. I've had dbt, cbt, a lot of edmr, edmr, and of course, medications I've been on. And I do have to take medications on a daily basis, so antipsychotics. I think most important is support, family support. And people with psychosis are not scary. You know, they're not. They're just going through something you can't see and don't understand. But I think, yeah.

[Michelle]

Is that your perception that a lot of people find this scary or think, oh, this is a, the danger. There's almost a stigma against it every time.

[Michelle's Daughter]

Even friends, when I make new friends, it'll be going very well. And then I'll say, here, I have this diagnosis, and I'll go, no, you don't. There's no way. Absolutely not. You don't have that and they back off or they don't believe it. It's very difficult to keep people, people just don't understand it. They think that you, you must be absolutely crazy. That's the word. You're crazy. But it's, you know, it's a lonely disease because you cannot go out and make a lot of friends. People have very judgmental attitudes towards it.

[Michelle]

And that's especially tragic because you mentioned the support system can be the most important thing for people with this.

[Michelle's Daughter]

So it's like, absolutely the most important thing. I have a very loving husband. I have three beautiful daughters. I have a good mom, sister and friends. That, that's taken years to be able to maintain that though. It's so important.

[Michelle]

Absolutely. And that, that, that's wonderful. I, I, you know, we talked about, we started talking about a bit about the stigma. What are other misconceptions that you've encountered.

[Michelle's Daughter]

In your life about this violence that were violent? And I have never been violent a day in my life, and I don't know anybody that has. I think we're more susceptible to being manipulated and taken advantage of.

[Michelle]

Yeah, you do hear a lot about, you know, it's a situation where people kind of conflate mental illness with violence. But then when you look at the numbers, people with mental illness are more likely to be victimized. And I think sort of labeling people as violent without them actually being violent is actually just something that would keep people from getting the help they deserve.

[Michelle's Daughter]

Right. I think it, it looks crazy. Like when I was talking to my daughter about doing this with you guys, she said, I knew you talked to yourself. That's what I knew as a little kid, is that you constantly talk to yourself. That might look a little crazy. It probably does. But that's not violence. That's not. I don't know how to explain that.

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[Michelle]

Also, there's a lot of non mentally ill people who are very violent. There's not. It's not. If people are violent, they may just be violent.

[Michelle's Daughter]

Violence. It has nothing to do with their mental state. Exactly. I think so. I don't know what else people think. I guess they just think that we constantly don't live in a real world or I live in the real world. I just have an illness that doesn't want me to. It really doesn't want Me to, I would say if my brain had its way, I would be in the psychosis world all the time. That's where it wants to go, and that's where it wants me to be. It's like my brain wants me to suffer, but I don't personally want that. So it's very. Does that make sense?

[Michelle]

Does that, does I, I, I this, I'm not comparing our experiences, but when I was heavily drinking before I went into recovery and became sober from alcohol, it was, there were, there were times like, where I felt like my brain really wants a drink right now. I don't even want to drink right now, but I kind of have to in order to.

[Michelle's Daughter]

That's what, that's what my illness is. Wants me to think everybody's out to get me. It wants me to think I'm no good. It wants a lot of those things, but it doesn't want me to go out and do anything kind of crazy or to anybody else. It's really, it's, it's a mind of its own. It's, I think people with my illness are really living in their own internal struggle. They're not trying to inflict any kind of struggle on anyone else.

[Michelle]

And, and I think that's so important to remember. And, you know, I wanted to ask you. One thing we kind of hear about in true crime is, you know, there can be the topic of mental illness when it comes to, you know, people making statements or giving false confessions, giving real confessions. And when you're dealing with something, you know, like a psychotic state or like disorganized thinking, how does that play in. Obviously, you're possibly grappling with things that are not there. They feel real to you, but they're not there. But at the same time, like, are you, like, how can that, what are your thoughts on that when you're kind of analyzing that within the true crime space? I guess.

[Michelle's Daughter]

Well, first and foremost, I guess with. There's not going to be any. There's not. Okay. There's not going to be anything that actually happened. I'm not going to tell you something happened that's even real. A lot of times when I approach my husband or my daughter and I say this is happening, or I can have conversations, it's kind of a makeshift conversation where I think it's happening, but it didn't happen. My family will say that never happened, and I am so susceptible that I'm going to change everything. It's not going to be consistent. I'm going to say, oh, that didn't happen. Okay. But I'm not going to sit there and say details that actually really happened of anything. It's just going to be really far out. Probably it's going to not make any sense. Inconsistent. Inconsistent. I'm talking about Deli in particular. Like, with him, he was. There was nothing psychotic about anything that I saw with him. He just knew exactly what he was. Manipulative. I don't think I can be manipulative because I'm so confused by my environment a lot of the times. There's no way for me to manipulate it. I mean, you have to be good at. To manipulate something, you have to kind of know what you're doing. And there's absolutely no way I would be able to do that.

[Michelle]

He's like driving the car. Whereas someone in that state is more of like a passenger. Not in control.

[Michelle's Daughter]

Exactly. A hundred percent. Thinking everyone else around you is probably trying to get at you is even. It's a very confusing place to be and it's not going to look normal.

[Michelle]

Well, one thing you just said that I wanted to touch upon that was really interesting was you kind of almost mentioned, you know, you almost go from thing to thing. I think your daughter mentioned, like, the inconsistency. What can that look like? Is that essentially almost like jumping from rock to rock and it's all like kind of almost different topics Is like, is that what the disorganization looks like?

[Michelle's Daughter]

Can you answer? Can you help me with that one? I'm sorry. I need her help on some things.

[Michelle]

No, that's fine.

[Michelle's Daughter]

I would say yes, you can jump from thing to thing without thinking about it. I think that's kind of where her symptoms almost looking like ADHD come in.

Because I'm very, I am very disorganized.

It's kind of scattered. Like, she can, you know, leave one task uncompleted and move to the next without moving to the. Going back to it or something like that.

It can, okay. In my home, it can look like an ADHD person just came through. You can come home and see my dishwasher open, my dryer open halfway, with clothes all over the place. Do you know what I mean? And I'm still just gonna maybe be pacing and walking around in circles because I'm struggling with the conversation I'm having with. That's not even real. That's what it looks like.

[Michelle]

That makes sense. And honestly, it sounds like I went to your house because I have ADHD and I do all of that. I, I. So I can, I can relate to that aspect of it, because. But. But, you know, it's one of those things where I think people. Yeah. People who are not familiar with this, they really just see the Hollywood version of. Of what this can look like and they don't have a sense of the real world struggles. And is that frustrating for. For you as somebody who is dealing with this?

[Michelle's Daughter]

Very, very. It's not any different than that ADHD or really super bad anxiety. The only thing is, is I'm probably having a conversation with myself that's not necessary and I'm trying to get out of it. I might be pacing in a circle or if I'm in public, I'm probably experiencing so much anxiety, my eyes probably look like a deer in the headlights. I probably just want to get my stuff done and get home. That's all it's going to look like to another person is a very anxious, uncomfortable person. It's not going to look like the movie. So I'm not, you know, just completely talking to. I don't have somebody I see that's not there. I. That doesn't. I don't have that.

[Michelle]

Do others with the condition have that or is that really rare? I'm just curious.

[Michelle's Daughter]

Most of the people that I know in my groups and stuff suffer from paranoia voices. I have not experienced voices in about a decade. As far as constant. When I was in my 20s and 30s, it was too hard to deal with. It was overwhelming. And it's very hard to know that you're hearing them. So you're just in public. Like I said, you're just going to be in public talking to yourself or looking anxious to another person. And they might be like, oh, okay, that person's really having a bad day.

[Michelle]

But.

[Michelle's Daughter]

Or they might not look like anything at all. They might just be standing there normal. I think a lot of people with this illness work. Not a lot. I know some have families. Normal people. Normal people. Just normal people.

[Michelle]

You never know what someone's dealing with or what's affecting them. And I think that's important to remember this. It. Something like this doesn't look like anything. It's not like, you know, people have a sign on their head saying what they have, regardless of whatever mental condition. In terms of the voices, would. Would that be something like multiple? Or is that something where it's like one person talking and like, what are they typically saying? Or is it just like you kind of just hear in the background all of the above?

[Michelle's Daughter]

It could sound like maybe a loud room where you're not really putting the Conversation together. Maybe you're in a restaurant, a lot of people are talking, can sound like that a lot. And then also there could be overlap with maybe more specific voices in your head. It doesn't even have to be voices. I've heard helicopters over my house before. But this is all kind of going on in a psychosis. Now when I'm in psychosis, that's a wholly different looking experience. And that is going to probably look strange to people. They're not always friendly. I get. But I smell bad. Maybe while I'm talking to people. Somebody, somebody. I say somebody might say that to me. But nobody's really saying that to me. My brain is saying that to me. That I'm stupid, that you're hideous. Want you to go away. The last delusion that I had, I actually thought everyone in my neighborhood wanted me to kill myself. And when I opened up my blinds and I saw my neighbor across the street, I heard him say, why haven't you killed yourself yet? But he wasn't saying that. It's. It's a lot like that. It's very confusing, it's very difficult and you can't sort it out.

[Michelle]

That's. That's terribly upsetting. And, and um, I. I wanted to ask. Well, you mentioned the, the psychosis and we talked a little bit about that. But what does that look like exactly? And what does it feel like being in that state?

[Michelle's Daughter]

I never want to go back, so I make steps every day to not be in psychosis. Because it is hell. It's hell. It takes a really long time to go get out of. I could just be sitting on my couch and not look like much. I might not be showering. There's probably no TV on. But in my head what's going on is enormous. I'm believing something that's very crazy. Like my last one, I thought I saw a spaceship. This is going to sound so crazy, but I thought I saw a spaceship. And I was pretty sure that the alien people had invaded my brain. I would see like just crazy things. I saw a piece of lint on the floor and it was in the shape of an M. And I said, oh, they sent that. My family was coming over all the time to sit with me. But if it would. Just to look from your. If you were looking at me, it would look like I was sitting on the couch, not doing anything. In my head, this whole thing was happening. Boy, it's a delusion. It's a severe delusion that you cannot come out of. And no matter how much Your family's sitting there saying, it's not happening, it's happening. And then sometimes you'll get hallucinations that go along with it. And definitely a lot of things will line up in your brain that you'll be connecting that all are telling you this is what's happening. And it's. You're not going to get out of it without medication or hospitalization. And afterwards, it takes so long to build up your thoughts, to build, to be normal again, to think normal. I think there's probably some iq. I don't know. I think your IQ probably does get affected. I think you're thinking everything. It takes a very long time to come out of. It's not just that positive. Hearing voices, having the delusions. You realize how much time you lost. You don't trust your family. You've probably hurt them. I mean, my daughter's sitting with me. I have three. My. I have two stepdaughters and, and my biological daughter. I tell them that I think they're trying to kill me and they don't love me. That hurts. That hurts. And it's. I, I can't stop it. I can't stop feeling that way sometimes. You know, did that explain it or.

[Michelle]

It does. And I think that's. I think we really captured it very well. The, the kind of isolating nature of, of this disease.

[Michelle's Daughter]

Very isolating. Very lonely.

[Michelle]

Yeah. And, and, but, but what? But like, but the thing that you mentioned, the structure, the, the social support, you know, the family support being so important. So it's, it's kind of a tragedy where that can help. But that's the very thing that kind of, it can affect in, in a negative way. And so, yeah, I feel like, understand. People need to understand this is, this is a real. And this is not anybody's fault who has this. And it, the, you know, the, the people need support who have it. I guess.

[Michelle's Daughter]

Yes, it's hard sometimes I think, okay, what a wasted life. Because, you know, I would love to do what you guys do. I mean, to be a lawyer was probably my dream. Probably how I got attracted to true crime and everything. But I, I would never be able to. So I think, okay, what a wasted life I have. But then again, I'm alive and I, I've experienced all the positive, great things of that. I, I have love. I've had many positive experiences, laughter, all of the things. I just would. I choose not to have it. Absolutely. Absolutely. It's not fun. It's a daily struggle. There's a certain grief process. That you have to go through. There's a grief. Yeah.

[Michelle]

What does that look like?

[Michelle's Daughter]

It's a loss. It's a loss of maybe dreams, how you might have been, how you could have been. There's a. There's a great grief and heartbreak with it, and it's lonely. I mean, I see myself as this really super social person who has this. And I want to, and I get ready to. And then my illness will always come in. And that's been the hardest thing because I'm always like, I'm going to go back to school and. Which I have many a times, or I'm going to go get a job. And I do. And it inevitably ends in psychosis. So I do have to stay home.

[Michelle]

That's. I'm so sorry. And that's like, like you're like an extrovert in a way. But it's just, it, it. There's the limitation there.

[Michelle's Daughter]

Yes, there's a lot of limitations. And that's why I said I think my brain wants me to suffer. That's how I see it. And I know they. It's not a split personality. A lot of people think that, but there is this, this way I look at it, where there's me and then there's schizophrenia, and it's right there and it wants to take me. And by the way, my official diagnosis is schizoaffective. So I don't know what, you know, a psychiatrist would have to explain the difference. But I do know I'm on the schizophrenia side of the ailment, and I do. That's what I suffer from. But that was probably on a side note. I know.

[Michelle]

I just was wondering, you know, we're, we're in true crime and there's overlap between discussions of, of crimes and, and whatnot in the legal system and mental illness and, you know, thought disorders and things like that. And, you know, I, I know you're a true crime head too. So I. When you're consuming that true crime and you're hearing some of these discussions, are there things that you hear and you're just like, that's not right. Or you're like, this is kind of offensive, or things. People are frequently getting wrong in the true crime space.

[Michelle's Daughter]

All the time.

[Michelle]

I bet.

[Michelle's Daughter]

All the time. Half the time, maybe even 90% of the time, I'm like, that's called psychopath. That's called a psychopath. That's not called a schizophrenic or psychosis. That is a narcissistic psychopath whose intentions are a hundred percent to do evil. And it's what they executed has nothing to do with, It's a disservice to, It's a disservice, yeah, to mentally ill people because it's not the same thing.

[Michelle]

No, there's no intent, no one intends to have a mental illness. And yeah, I, I, I, I sometimes feel the same thing when people talk about addicts in, in True Crime and it's like, I don't know, like there's, there's some people don't understand a condition or they don't understand a situation. And I, I imagine they're probably not trying to harmful. And I'm sure I've said stuff on the show where I've been totally wrong about a mental situation. So like I'm not, I'm not throwing stones. It's more of like, I think when you're just kind of commenting on something and you don't understand it and you don't know about it, it's really easy to mess up. And we just have to be careful about that because we're, we're contributing to a stigma against people who cannot help.

[Michelle's Daughter]

But have a mental illness, didn't choose it, don't want it. And I do. But I do exercise every single availability to me to keep my illness in check. A lot of times when I do see a person that's psychotic that went off, when we do hear about it, it does happen. I'm just kind of sitting there screaming, going, didn't you see the signs? This was so building. This was a person who needed intervention so long ago. So that is something that really upsets me because I will see these people who are go missing or whatever or do something kind of crazy and they're clearly going onto a psychosis and nobody's even noticing it. When somebody's saying something bizarre to you or maybe experiencing some paranoia that doesn't seem normal, investigate that.

[Michelle]

I would say, is it a situation where there can be difficulties in getting help or barriers to like getting the treatment that you need in the moment? Or is, I mean, has that been your experience or does that just sort of depend.

[Michelle's Daughter]

Well, I also have a relative that suffers and I would say it just looks kind of like the person suffering from a drug addiction and is kind of not following through with schoolwork or work. I think families just don't recognize that's what they're seeing. I'll just be honest. I had a period where I was extraordinarily jealous. I thought my husband was having an affair okay, well, that might seem normal. This was about a year period. This wasn't normal. This was, there was no evidence of it. There was no taking me away from it. So maybe the person is stuck on something. There's no evidence of it. They're not kind of making any kind of sense, any kind of behavior. They're withdrawing.

I mean, I would just say, like, there are definitely barriers.

My daughter's in grad school to be a social worker, by the way, so.

She'S kind of, um, there's, there's societal barrier barriers, but there's also the barrier that the individual faces. As far as, like my mom said, accepting the diagnosis or accepting that what you are experiencing is not real, that makes it hard for you to accept that anyone, that you don't need help because what you're experiencing is real. I think that my mom in particular is really good at, over the years, developing an ability to recognize her symptoms, recognize when she's going into psychosis or experiencing paranoia. And as, as awesome as that is, we still have to help her. It's a lifelong journey of, I don't know what the word is, but just like, you have to have that support system, like she said.

That's a good point, because even with the stories I've told you and the experiences I've had, and I could tell you more psychotic episodes I've had, I still don't think I'm mentally ill. Sometimes I wake up and go, I'm fine. I don't know what anybody's talking about.

We, we kind of go through periods where she's asking us, like, you know, do you really think I have this? She wants us to, like, sit down and watch YouTube videos about the differences between the diagnoses and try to help her come to an understanding and, like, try to almost convince us that she doesn't have it.

I mean, probably most people don't experience alien invasions in the brain. And even though I know that was a delusion and that was one of my worst psychosis, I will still wake up in the morning and go, hey, I am perfectly fine. I have no mental health issue. So, yeah, the own, the person accepting psychosis is also not going to happen. So just because they're saying they don't have it and they don't have anything wrong with them, don't give up on trying to get that diagnosis.

[Michelle]

Yeah, I, I, I have a question. This is something that's been controversial, and I've seen just a lot of debate and discussion about it. And like, as someone who doesn't have this. I don't feel like I have a strong opinion either way. But it's like you have a, you see people saying, well, if someone's not accepting help, maybe they should be almost kind of like kept and maybe even against their will to, to get help and get healthier, which could be a violation of their, their rights, you know, if you look at it from a certain perspective, but could be helping them. And I'm just having gone through some of this yourself, do you have an opinion on that or do you feel like that's ultimately unhelpful because it really needs to come from them or like, where do you sort of go on something like that?

[Michelle's Daughter]

I can't believe I'm going to say this, but I think some people should be medically held against their will.

[Michelle]

Yeah, it seems like some people are very extreme cases and they just are not going to get better without something like that. But then again, I also understand that it's a vi. Like it can feel like a violation of their rights. So like I, I see both sides.

[Michelle's Daughter]

I mean, you're always going to get people who will take advantage of that role. So it's, it's very difficult. I know what you're saying, but most, some people will. If we had trustworthy mental health professionals, absolutely. I think people should be medicated, maybe against their will, but until they're ready to make that decision. Well, we don't, we don't have good healthcare mental health care in this country.

[Michelle]

We do not. Yeah, it's actually shocking sometimes. It's, it seems like we went from sort of a warehousing mentally ill people in institutions which were run poorly and very abusive to not having that. And it's like, figure it out on your own, basically. Which is, which is also not good. You know, it's like we went from one extreme to the other and there's not really a lot of resources. It feels like sometimes and I don't know, it seems like a bad system.

[Michelle's Daughter]

I'll tell you what you probably won't see is like me screaming and needing to be put in four points restraints and getting injections in my neck because I won't calm down. I'm not saying that doesn't happen, but that's not what we experience. It's, it's what we experience here is I'm going to say, are you, if you hand me something to drink, I might think you're trying to poison me. I'm not even going to tell you. I'm just not going to Drink it. And it starts with little things like that. That's what it's going to look like. And people don't understand that. And maybe ask that person, do you really think I'm trying to poison you? Because maybe that's what they're thinking. But I would never have said that in my 20s and 30s, my struggle, I would have kept to myself, would have never said, well, I really think you're trying to poison me and I don't trust you. Does that make sense?

[Michelle]

Yeah.

[Michelle's Daughter]

Say it now to my family, because I'm more aware.

[Michelle]

Is that something that, when you're kind of getting into that paranoia, is that something where conversations can kind of help.

[Michelle's Daughter]

Draw you back out of it a hundred percent? If I can be honest with you and say, hey, I think you're going to use this against me and I don't trust you right now, and you can say, and we can talk about it, I will. 100. Like I said with the dimmer switch, I'm going to start coming down a little bit. If I keep going in that and I keep it all secret and I keep it all in my head, it's going to multiply into this, this huge thing. Absolutely.

[Michelle]

One thing I'm going to be curious about is, you know, would you have any advice for people in true crime, either people who are creators or maybe on the commenting side, people talking about things on social media. Would you have any advice on what they can keep in mind so that they can have more compassionate and accurate conversations that touch upon mental illness?

[Michelle's Daughter]

Yes. Okay, I already forgot your question.

[Michelle]

I'm sorry, it was a long and rambling question. So I think that's on me. Just how can we all, in true crime, have more compassionate and accurate conversations about mental illness? Do you have any advice on what people should or should not do?

[Michelle's Daughter]

Yes. People who are really suffering from mental health issues, which, like you said in the beginning, are different than personality issues. They're suffering, they're having an unbelievably hard time, and they need compassion and they need empathy more than anything else. They 100% need that hand on hand on their arm saying, it's going to be okay. Let's take a deep breath and please don't confuse mental health with a psycho. A psychopath.

[Michelle]

Yeah.

[Michelle's Daughter]

These are. These are totally different extremes here. This having no empathy and no remorse and being a sadist is not mentally ill. That's just something completely different. And that's mostly what we're dealing with in true crime are these. And I can't Explain those people, because I watch for the same reason that everyone else does. These are. That's a mind I don't understand. And that's not a mentally ill person. That's something else I don't know.

[Michelle]

Right. Yeah.

[Michelle's Daughter]

And it's.

[Michelle]

It's sometimes troubling to see mental illness brought into things in a way that feels very unaccurate. I mean, we talked a little bit about the Delphi case, but that felt like something where it was like, I don't. You know, I mean, that doesn't seem to be what's going on here, but yet everyone's sort of just saying that. Even though when you actually talk to people who've been through that experience, they're not seeing any really, recognition there. So.

[Michelle's Daughter]

Yeah, and I don't think it would just show up for. Like I said, I've been struggling since I was a child. I cannot remember a time where my brain was not trying to work against me. This didn't just come in and then go away. This is a lifelong situation, and I can't.

[Michelle]

Yeah, you don't. You don't get some form of schizophrenia in middle age, typically. I would imagine it's usually lifelong when you're younger. It's manifesting itself. One thing I was cur. I mean, one thing I feel like I want to hold myself more accountable for is I use the words like insane or crazy to describe situations a lot. And I feel like that's not. I. I'm trying not to do that anymore because I feel like that is just adding to a stigma. And I'm not. I'm not trying to, certainly. But it's like, if I'm saying, oh, this guy's crazy, you know, it's like, well, what is he actually going through? Is he. Is he.

[Michelle's Daughter]

Is he.

[Michelle]

Is he mentally ill? Is he. Is he dealing? Is he a psychopath? Like, what. What's actually going on that's, you know, manifesting that behavior rather than just kind of labeling people like that. I don't know.

[Michelle's Daughter]

It actually really doesn't bother me. I call the hospital the net hut, and I talk about myself as a crazy person sometimes. But I think we all are. We all know what it's like to kind of be out of control and be a little nuts. Honestly, schizoaffective and schizophrenia are totally different than the regular than crazy. I think we're all crazy sometimes.

[Michelle]

I think so, too. I definitely have been. And I don't know anyone who really hasn't had that moment where they're Kind of going off the deep end to a certain extent. But. But, but, no. Yeah. I mean, it's. It's just unfortunate, though, that just there. I do feel like sometimes the true crime side does increase the stigma. And we should be encouraging people to get support, get help. We should be encouraging communities to embrace people dealing with that because that helps them deal with it. It's not, you know, it. No one benefits by sort of being like, oh, it's a scary thing. Run. You know, it's just not good.

[Michelle's Daughter]

And a lot of times what we're seeing with these people who are building up to these really stupid crimes, that person just needed someone so long ago just to be compassionate. You can see it building. You can see sometimes. And there's a big difference to me between somebody who commits an impulsive crime because of how they came up or someone who's a psychopath and does, like the stuff that is very planned and just out of just disturbing. That's just a whole different thing.

[Michelle]

I concur. And it's one of those things where it's like, sometimes when I see somebody who might be mentally ill doing something awful, I feel terrible for the victims. And it's like a horrible situation. And, you know, you're like, why. Why did this person not seek help? Help? So it's like, frustrating in that way. But sometimes you also think, like, maybe our society should make it easier to kind of get help, and maybe that people should be sort of forced to get help if they're not, you know, sticking with it. And maybe it's more of a structural issue than somebody just being evil, if that makes sense.

[Michelle's Daughter]

It makes a lot of sense. And I wanted to say two things if I can. They might be two different things. Just because you have a mental health issue doesn't mean you're mentally. You're not intelligent. It's not a mental. Mental illness does not mean that person is stupid.

[Michelle]

No.

[Michelle's Daughter]

That'S a stigma that goes with it. People think, oh, that person just. It's dismissive. They. There's nothing about them that's normal or crazy. I think that's what you meant when you were saying that word, and that's not true at all. I don't remember what the other thing was, but.

I'm not laughing. I was just smiling.

[Michelle]

No, but I think what you're. What you're saying is true. There's. There's so many facets to this, and sometimes I think people do kind of have a catch all of like, you know, mentally impaired, mentally ill, personality Disorder, you know, there's a catch all.

[Michelle's Daughter]

Exactly.

[Michelle]

Yeah, catch all. And it's like they're, they're almost just painting everyone with same brush. Psychopathy. It's, it's, it's a lot more nuanced and we, we benefit when we understand the nuances. We benefit when we can kind of say what is the difference between this and that? And what does that look like in terms of crime? What can that, how can that manifest itself and how can we better understand it? Because I think if we understand things better, we can actually help people who, who may not otherwise commit a crime but are dealing with a mental illness. We can help them avoid that and help everyone down the road.

[Michelle's Daughter]

A hundred percent, 100%, especially. Even if you think about. Well, I do remember both things. I feel like our society likes narcissism and likes the lack of empathy that it promotes it. And also people who are mentally ill self medicate. And when you're on drugs and you're on this and you're in that lifestyle, something that you wouldn't normally do is going to happen inevitably. So.

[Michelle]

No, that's, so that's so apt. The comorbidity of mental illness and then addiction is very real. And it's a situation where, you know, you have to. Sometimes in order to treat the addiction, you also have to treat the underlying thing because you know, people, as you said, they self medicate, they're, they're dealing with something, they don't understand it, it's upsetting, it's confusing and that can. Addiction can really take the edge off temporarily.

[Michelle's Daughter]

I think anybody can experience it. I mean even you say sometimes you've had anxiety. Well, alcohol is the very first thing you're going to think of because you're stressed out and it's going to take the edge off. In all mental illness. It's just a spectrum.

[Michelle]

Yeah, I would, I was, I was drinking to deal with anxiety that was probably coming somewhat from untreated adhd. I'm curious.

[Michelle's Daughter]

You're also a very intelligent woman. And being an intelligent woman is, is also very hard because it is.

[Michelle]

You've listened to the show. You know that's not true. No, I'm just kidding. Very nice of you. Thank you very much. You know, it. Yeah, I think, I actually think like, I mean, I don't know. Well, like, I think it is important though to remember that mental illness and intelligence are, those are separate things. It doesn't make someone bad, it doesn't make someone stupid. As you said, it's like it's a separate thing people are dealing with. And you obviously have a ton to offer in life, and you have a wonderful family and you, you have all these gifts and that, and that's wonderful. And, and having this condition, having this disease does not take away from any of that, and it does not make you less of a person because of that.

[Michelle's Daughter]

Right, right, exactly. But I think there was a time where I would not have believed that. So we do have to get over the stigma. It's not. Doesn't affect you. It doesn't mean you're stupid.

[Michelle]

Nope.

[Michelle's Daughter]

Doesn't mean you're a throwaway. It doesn't make you any less of a person. Exactly.

[Michelle]

Yeah. And you can always get help. You can always start to get help now. Even if stuff has gone wrong in the past, doesn't mean that it's like there's no hope. Like, no going forward. Things can get better, but usually that means getting some support of some kind and rebuilding.

[Michelle's Daughter]

Right? I, I. Have you ever watched Med Circle?

[Michelle]

No, I haven't.

[Michelle's Daughter]

I heard something on there that I thought was very powerful. A person had said if they, if somebody walked up to you and said, I want to kill myself, you would get them help. If a person walked by you mumbling, talking to themselves, you would just say, what a crazy person, and walk around them. These people, we, we need help and support and empathy. Empathy is the big. Compassion, understanding. It's all, it's all there. I probably rambled again. Sorry.

[Michelle]

You're doing great. And, and I think what you're saying is actually, it's very apt because it's like, when you're talking about people with, with, with that and, and who are like, talking to themselves or dealing with that situation, it is a cry for help. And I think one thing that kind of keeps people walking, they don't want to get involved. There's a fear there. And there's also, like, maybe limited resources in some places. Like, we lived in New York City, and you could tell that a lot of people who were unhoused, who were homeless in that population, there seemed to either be some addiction issues going on or perhaps some mental illness issues going on. And it was like, this is really inhumane and awful that these people are just like, in the cold on the street. Nobody's, like, doing anything. Like, how do you get them help? How do you get them to take the help? I mean, we, like, we have to have these conversations, and there might be some difficult answers at the end of the day, but, like, the status quo is not working. In many cases. And we're seeing that, you know, in. In different areas.

[Michelle's Daughter]

Yeah, I think that's true. And I guess in true crime, what you're going to see. See, that's where you're going to see mental illness. Like you said, the unhoused and the not. In true crime, I think what you're dealing with is psychopathy. I don't know if that's making any sense to people, but it's two different things. To me, it is.

[Michelle]

And, And I think you. Do you see, like, mental illness at times in true crime, but usually it looks a lot different than the psychopathy.

[Michelle's Daughter]

Like, it does look a lot different.

[Michelle]

Like, Ted Bundy's not suffering from.

[Michelle's Daughter]

From a mental illness.

[Michelle]

No. Or he's not. He's not delusional. He's not psychotic. He's not in a psychosis. He's. He wants to do what he's doing.

[Michelle's Daughter]

Right? Yes. There's an intention of. I, I don't think they're suffering is what I'm saying. They just don't have any empathy or.

[Michelle]

Yeah, I think also a bit. I mean, part of it is. And, and this is. It is the job of defense attorneys to robustly represent their clients and try to get the best outcome for them. So I'm not. This isn't intended as a criticism, but you do have a lot of implementation of things like insanity defenses and the legal definition of insanity being kind of different from, you know, like, psychological understanding. So I think that that also contributes because it's like. Well, as lawyers are saying he's insane, but like, I, I think people end up then conflating people with people suffering mental illness because of some of that. I don't know. That's just my perception.

[Michelle's Daughter]

Possibly. But how many times does that even work? I mean, the people that do get insanity defenses are people like maybe Andrea Yates, who we all can say 100% needed that defense. And, and we've. I have empathy for her. What. How. How sad is that?

[Michelle]

You know, needed help and that. That's my opinion. And I, you know, and. Yeah, and the, and the psychosis that can follow, postpartum psychosis, you know, that's a. That's a thing. That's very much a thing. One of the first times the insanity defense was implemented was actually in. In involved the later War Secretary Edwin Stanton, as an attorney defending a guy who became a Civil War general. I think it was like Daniel Sickles or something, and it was over. He. He killed his wife's lover. So it was like temporary Insanity. And, like, he lost it. So, like, it used to work actually more than it does now. Nowadays, we've narrowly defined what insanity means in the court, and it really is. You don't know the difference between right and wrong in this moment when you're committing the crime. So, like, if someone does something, it.

[Michelle's Daughter]

Used to work for, temper tantrums, basically.

[Michelle]

Like, I'm mad at my wife, let's go. I mean, honestly, it. Yeah. And. But they were like, oh, everyone would understand why you'd lose your mind over that.

[Michelle's Daughter]

It's like.

[Michelle]

Or you could just that. But the thing is, nowadays it's like, it's so narrowly defined, so if you make any effort to try to get away with your crime, you're probably gonna have a hard time arguing insanity, because legally, you would expect someone who is legally insane to come out and say, hey, guys, don't worry, I just killed all those zombies. And they're like actual people, not zombies. So it's like, it would apply to that situation and very few others.

[Michelle's Daughter]

Exactly. I mean, if you're in a psychosis, you're not gonna be like, oh, it's 4 o' clock. People are gonna start noticing what I'm doing. Let's clean up. Yeah. No, not happening.

[Michelle]

No, that's not happening. Not gonna be organized.

[Michelle's Daughter]

No.

[Michelle]

And so I think that's something to keep in mind. I'm curious, like, as you look at your notes, is there anything I didn't ask about that you wanted to mention? Are there topics that you wanted to sort of delve into?

[Michelle's Daughter]

I might be wrong, but I do believe that one in a hundred people suffer from this. It's. It's happening all around you. Have some compassion. We are not violent people. Unless, you know, like you said, you're just violent because you're violent. But we're not violent people. We're just regular people and we just want what everybody else wants. Just have a little bit. Well, a lot more struggles to get there.

[Michelle]

You did an amazing job, seriously. And thank you both for doing this. Like, I feel like this is going to be so. I feel like this is gonna make people feel seen, if that makes sense.

[Michelle's Daughter]

Yeah, I. I hope so. I hope so. You're not alone. And if you have a bizarre thought or a strange thought and you don't want to divulge it to somebody, just find someone you trust and just. Just maybe divulge it. Because sometimes that's what keeps us sick, is we kind of know it's a little weird and we don't want to.

[Michelle]

Say it for somebody without this. If someone's telling you that, don't. I mean, I think it's important. Be compassionate and don't like freak out. It's just, maybe they just need some help and you can be that person helping them get that help.

[Michelle's Daughter]

Right. And my daughters always say to me that must really feel awful to believe that. And that somehow helps me because it doesn't feel good to think strange things. So don't judge em or jump back or anything. Just say that. That would be. But, you know, have some empathy. That would be awful. If you truly believe that. That's, that's sad. How do we help you with that?

[Michelle]

Yeah, that's such empathy. And that, that, that sounds like it's a really effective strategy. I imagine like the opposite would be like, how dare you think that about me? That I would do that? That, that's defensive, that's, that's reacting. But the empathy is drawing someone closer to you.

[Michelle's Daughter]

Exactly. Yes.

[Michelle]

Well, Michelle, this has been wonderful. You're a wonderful person to talk to. I'm so glad you're here. But I'm also just like, you should be so proud of yourself for dealing with this and fighting, you know, and working on it. And I just, I really enjoyed our conversation and I just really appreciate you kind of being willing to share this journey with people because I really do feel like we'll make people feel seen.

[Michelle's Daughter]

Thank you so much for giving me a chance to speak for us, because I say us, but yeah, we're, we're not out there and we're not. Understood. So thank you very, very much. Thank you so much for this opportunity. I appreciate it.

[Michelle]

Of course. Thanks so much to Michelle and her daughter. We really enjoyed the conversation and appreciate.

[Anya Cain]

Her taking the time to speak with us. And we just want to say again.

[Michelle]

Congrats on her sobriety and congrats on all the efforts she's making. It's really commendable and she's awesome.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Thanks so much for listening to the Murder Sheet. If you have a tip concerning one of the cases we cover, please email [e-mail]. if you have actionable information about an unsolved crime, please report it to the appropriate authorities.

[Anya Cain]

If you're interested in joining our Patreon, that's available at www.patreon.com murdersheet. If you want to tip us a.

[Michelle]

Bit of money for records requests, you.

[Anya Cain]

Can do so at www. Buymeacoffee.com murdersheet. We very much appreciate any support.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Special thanks to Kevin Tyler Greenlee, who composed the music for the Murder Sheet and who you can find on the [e-mail] if you're looking to talk with.

[Anya Cain]

Other listeners about a case we've covered, you can join the Murder Sheet discussion group on Facebook.

[Michelle]

We mostly focus our time on research and reporting, so we're not on social media much. We do try to check our email.

[Anya Cain]

Account, but we ask for patience as we often receive a lot of messages.

[Michelle]

Thanks again for listening.

[Anya Cain]

I think you and I, Kevin, are people who always like to support a company that's giving back to the community in some key way and supporting a cause that we care about. Is that fair to say?

[Kevin Greenlee]

That's very fair to say.

[Anya Cain]

One cause that we care about is supporting veterans. Veterans, people who've served our country, people who have served in the military. They deserve all the support they can get when they come back and when they're adjusting to society and dealing with things like trauma.

[Michelle]

Right, right.

[Anya Cain]

Well, one company that's based in Austin, Texas, is Hometown Hero, and they're doing just that. They're founded by a US Veteran, and he understood, first and foremost, how trauma can affect veterans. So a portion of their profits actually goes into causes that support veterans and groups that are supporting veterans. So when you're buying one of their premium hemp products, you're actually giving back to veterans. We think that's awesome. A lot of their products have this live rosin in it. This is a cannabis concentrate that's extracted using heat and pressure. That means you're getting very pure, very good cannabis in your hemp product that you're getting from them. They ship all throughout the country. It's very discreet packaging. It goes right to your door. And you can really experiment with them because they have something for people with all sorts of levels of THC experience. They have infused chocolates, they have gummies, they've got tinctures, they've got inhalables. Basically whatever you want to try. It's a great thing for you and for even your dog. I think they have some CBD products for dogs, so it's something to really kind of check out and see if you're interested. Reclaim your evening. Visit hometownhero.com and use code msheet to take 20% off your first purchase. That's hometownhero.com code msheet for 20% off your first purchase. So we want to shout out one of our wonderful sponsors right now, and that sponsor is Happy Mammoth. This is a wonderful natural wellness brand. We've been using it and it's been terrific. They're a great solution if you feel like you might be dealing with some hormone disruptors. I mean, that kind of happens to everyone. It's in the air, it's in the food, it's in lots of different products.

[Kevin Greenlee]

So it's really reduced your cravings.

[Anya Cain]

Yeah, for me, it's. I mean, I get cranin nuts about my cravings sometimes. I will, you know, suddenly really want Macintosh apples, which aren't even in season, and various other things. We all know I've been stealing a lot of cereal recently, or allegedly, I should say. And so to kind of help beat that, I've been using their hormone Harmony supplement. It's just a supplement. You take it a couple of times, you know, couple doses. And I feel like it's boosted my gut health, to be honest. It's also something that women who are in perimenopause or menopause, they can use it, and it's going to reduce your hot flashes, gonna have more energy, get to sleep better. So it's really good for women of all ages. But for me, the gut health element of it has been really special. So if you're interested, for a limited time, you can get 15% off your entire first order at Happy Mammoth. Com, Just use the code msheet at checkout. That's happy mammoth.com and use the code msheet for 15% off today.