Supporting the Children of Incarcerated Fathers: A Conversation with You Yes You’s Ericka Sanders and LaToya Highsaw

Summary

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Murder Sheet Podcast Summary

Episode: "Supporting the Children of Incarcerated Fathers: A Conversation with You Yes You’s Ericka Sanders and LaToya Highsaw"

Date: February 26, 2026
Hosts: Áine Cain and Kevin Greenlee
Guests: Ericka Sanders (Founder and Executive Director, UYesU), LaToya Highsaw (Family Law Attorney, IndyBar Board Volunteer with UYesU)

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Episode Overview

This episode spotlights the often-overlooked impact incarceration has on the children of incarcerated fathers, and explores how the Indiana-based nonprofit UYesU works to support these children and their families. Through candid, inspiring conversations with UYesU's founder, Ericka Sanders, and family law attorney and volunteer, LaToya Highsaw, the episode delves into the organization’s mission, practical services, and the profound influence that family connection and support can have on recidivism, rehabilitation, and healing familial wounds.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

The Overlooked Collateral Damage of Incarceration

• The hosts highlight that while crime and punishment are common topics, the effect on inmates’ families—especially children—rarely receives attention.
  • “When a person is incarcerated, that impacts everyone in their lives. Perhaps most importantly, it could impact their children.” —Kevin Greenlee (02:21)
  • “[Children] have done nothing wrong, but they still have to live the consequences of that incarceration.” —Áine Cain (02:34)

UYesU: Mission & Founding Story

• UYesU began as a one-off father-daughter dance in 2014, inspired by Ericka Sanders' personal history and subsequently expanded into a comprehensive nonprofit.
  • “Everything that we do is focused on keeping incarcerated dads connected with their kids, building and or rebuilding relationships with their kids, but then also supporting them on their reentry journey as well.” —Ericka Sanders (05:23)

Comprehensive, Relationship-Based Programming

• Inside Prison:
  • Monthly Fatherhood Program led by a formerly incarcerated dad (07:15)
  • Biweekly Group Therapy ("Mindfully UY") with on-site therapists (07:15)
  • Father Connection Events where children can visit in a more informal, family-friendly environment—often the only opportunity for dads to have all their children together at once (07:33)
  • Storytelling Workshop to help dads explore identity and aspirations (08:12)
• Legal Assistance:
  • Help with paternity, guardianship, birth certificates, and adoption issues, both during and after incarceration (08:54)
• Family Support:
  • Barrier-busting funds, connections to resources, family outings, and ongoing support post-release (09:13)
• Reentry Support:
  • Assistance with housing, food, mental health, and more, with the aim to prevent recidivism and reunite families (09:53)
  • “We believe that by doing all of the things that we do inside the prison and also supporting them when they get out of prison, that our dads will not return to prison and that they will be present or more present with their kids.” —Ericka Sanders (09:53)

Genuine Impact on Families and Dads

• The guests share heartfelt feedback from participants who feel remembered and supported, relieving family stress.
  • “Oftentimes families are forgotten about in incarceration. They're going through incarceration as well...We want it to be worth your while, right? We want to provide a great opportunity for you.” —Ericka Sanders (11:11)
  • “They say how UYesU gives them this new perspective on life and a new meaning as to their looking forward to the next steps...” —LaToya Highsaw (12:46)

The Importance of Emotional Healing and Role Modeling

• Both guests have deep personal motivations, having witnessed or experienced family separation and the stigma of incarceration.
  • “I grew up without my dad...That has been, still is the hardest thing that I've ever had to navigate. A big part of UYesU is wanting to do for dads what I wish was done for my dad.” —Ericka Sanders (14:56)
  • “My brother... made some mistakes but he had young children...He is now, he's full custody of his kids. That's really all the kids know was him. So it was personal for me as well.” —LaToya Highsaw (20:54)
• The transformative effect of showing up with care:
  • “What can happen if you just show up for someone as they are? I am so curious about how their lives will turn out by just doing that.” —Ericka Sanders (19:27)

Legal Hurdles for Incarcerated Fathers

• Lack of paternity establishment and confusion about parental rights is a major issue.
  • “A lot of is paternity...We need to make sure they get service, you know, of any hearings so that they don't lose out on the chance of having their children adopted and then not being able to ever be in their life.” —LaToya Highsaw (23:55)
• The support does not end with release:
  • “What's so great is they follow you when you're released so [...] you're not just...some of them have been incarcerated for some years and they have to, they need that assistance when they're out.” —LaToya Highsaw (24:42)

Collaborating with Correctional Facilities

• UYesU enjoys strong institutional backing due to its clear, positive impact and minimal burden on facility staff:
  • “We have a beautiful relationship, partnership, collaboration with the Department of Correction...we really have an easy time. Easier time.” —Ericka Sanders (27:13)

Application and Selection Process

• Fathers initiate their own involvement, with a competitive, criteria-based system focusing on safety, conduct, and residency requirements.
  • “All of our dads, they just request an application from their case manager...There's approximately maybe 13 to 1600 men at each of those facilities and we only accept 30.” —Ericka Sanders (30:23)

The Trauma and Needs of Children

• The absence of a parent due to incarceration can be more traumatic than parental death, leading to academic, social, and emotional struggles.
  • “A lot of our kids struggle socially, academically, physically, mentally and [...] if you ask them, they will tell you it's because I just miss my dad.” —Ericka Sanders (33:55)
  • “No one really asks them how they feel. If you ask them, they'll tell you...I’m often the first person that's ever asked, 'How do you feel about your dad being incarcerated?'” —Ericka Sanders (35:06)
• The importance of breaking secrecy and shame:
  • “A lot of kids don't talk about that their dad is incarcerated. It's a big secret. It's embarrassing.” —Ericka Sanders (36:40)
  • “What I've seen too is it just...it's not just the dad and the kiddos that have to put in that work, which was amazing that UYesU incorporates the moms.” —LaToya Highsaw (37:29)

Support Beyond Indiana & Fostering Honesty

• Suggestions for supporting children outside UYesU’s service area:
  • Facilitate peer connections, seek school social work support, and pursue therapy for children experiencing loss or confusion (40:50–42:37).
  • “There's nothing like just telling the truth, you know, where dad is, why he's there. It really, really is beneficial in the long run.” —Ericka Sanders (42:37)

Changing the Narrative, Encouraging Pride and Progress

• The program encourages kids to celebrate the hard work their fathers are doing rather than feel shame.
  • “We want our kids to be proud of their dad, you know, and celebrate them at the work that they're doing.” —Ericka Sanders (45:00)
  • “When you get out of here and if you handle your business right…and your kids get old enough to realize your journey…you're a superhero.” —Ericka Sanders (39:02)

How to Support UYesU’s Mission

• The organization welcomes donations, social media amplification, volunteers, and most of all, open-mindedness:
  • “Not everybody has, you know, means to donate...following us on social media...if you hear conversations...encourage people that there are incarcerated dads that are being dads.” —Ericka Sanders (46:38)

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• “You shouldn't judge anyone by their mistakes, right?...I see [UYesU] is really about breaking the cycle.” —LaToya Highsaw (20:54)
• “Everything that we do is about connection and relationships and seeing people, not for why you're here, but where do you want to go?” —Ericka Sanders (14:11)
• “We become a family inside...We're family, you know what I mean? And families just...tell the truth…there are no secrets.” —Ericka Sanders (45:17)
• “Just letting [the kids] know, like, if I could be at your basketball game, I would...It goes a long way.” —LaToya Highsaw (44:34)
• “We should want people who are incarcerated to get out and lead happy, productive lives from there. It should not be something where we just want people to be shamed and downtrodden after they get out.” —Áine Cain (48:25)

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• Introduction to overlooked family impact: 01:57–02:41
• Ericka Sanders’ background and UYesU’s founding: 05:11–05:23
• Detailed overview of UYesU programming: 07:15–09:53
• Testimonials and program impact: 11:08–13:46
• Personal stories / Motivation of guests: 14:56–16:49, 20:54–22:30
• Legal challenges for incarcerated fathers: 23:37–24:54
• Relationships with DOC and facilities: 27:13–29:13
• Entry and criteria for UYesU: 30:07–32:19
• Children's trauma and needs: 32:19–36:06
• Bridging family rifts and reducing stigma: 36:40–39:02
• Advice for supporting kids with incarcerated parents (general): 40:18–43:48
• Celebrating dads’ work over shame: 45:00–46:05
• How to help UYesU’s mission: 46:37–48:25
• Heartfelt memories and success stories: 49:16–53:36

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Closing Reflection

This rich episode is a testament to the transformative effect of empathy, continuity of care, and family support in the context of incarceration. UYesU’s innovative blend of therapeutic, legal, and practical assistance strengthens family bonds and lays the groundwork for genuine rehabilitation, impacting lives across generations. The stories, insights, and actionable advice shared are invaluable, reminding listeners that repair is possible and that “breaking the cycle” is a community effort.

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Transcript

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[Latoya Highshaw]

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[Anya Cain]

We talk a lot about things that land people in prison, namely kidnappings, manslaughter, or even straight up murder. We've also talked a lot about incarceration and different prisons. We've interviewed men and women who work in prisons as correctional officers or mental health professionals. We've talked to guests who were previously incarcerated in different Indiana prisons. We have even done interviews with a subject who is actively in jail.

[Kevin Greenlee]

But there's one facet of incarceration is often overlooked. You see, when a person is incarcerated, that impacts everyone in their lives. Perhaps most importantly, it could impact their children.

[Anya Cain]

The children of Incarcerated parents have done nothing wrong, but they still have to live the consequences of that incarceration.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Thankfully, we recently got connected with a nonprofit organization that is working to help the children of incarcerated fathers. It's called U. Yes U. Right now this organization is active at the following Indiana prisons, Putnamville Correctional Facility and Plainfield Correctional Facility with some programming at Duvall Residential Center. UESU has requirements for its participants around child safety, conduct and participation.

[Anya Cain]

It's an exciting program because it's a two way street. It helps these kids who are reeling from a loss, but it also helps their dads. By helping incarcerated fathers foster bonds with their children, UESU is helping motivate them to make positive changes in their lives. Changes that can help them rehabilitate and keep on making great decisions when they're released. That means healthier, happier kids, stronger families, safer communities and true rehabilitation. I was delighted to recently interview USU founder and Executive Director Erica Sanders as well as Latoya Highshaw, a family law attorney on the board of the Indianapolis Bar association who also volunteers her time with uesu. Here's what they had to say. My name is Anya Cain. I'm a journalist.

[Kevin Greenlee]

And I'm Kevin Greenlee. I'm an attorney.

[Anya Cain]

And this is the Murder Sheet.

[Kevin Greenlee]

We're a true crime podcast focused on original reporting, interviews and deep dives into murder cases. We're the Murder Sheet.

[Anya Cain]

And this is supporting the children of incarcerated Fathers. A conversation with U yes. Erica Sanders and Latoya Haishaw.

[Interviewer (Murder Sheet Host)]

All right, to start off with, I just wanted to thank you both so much for joining us on the Murder Sheet today. We really appreciate it.

[Erica Sanders]

Thank you for having us.

[Interviewer (Murder Sheet Host)]

Absolutely. I guess to start off with. And Erica, maybe we can start with you. Can you tell us a bit about your background and just sort of how you got involved?

[Erica Sanders]

Sure. So I am the founder and executive director of UESU and we started as a one off father daughter dance that I did in 2014 and based upon just the response of that dance but then also based upon the needs that the fathers had shared with me after the dance. That's how U YESU got started. And so everything that we do is focused on keeping incarcerated that's connected with their kids, building and or rebuilding relationships with their kids, but then also supporting them on their reentry journey as well.

[Interviewer (Murder Sheet Host)]

Wonderful. And Latoya, can you tell us a little bit about your background and how you got involved?

[Latoya Highshaw]

Yep. So when I first started practicing law I was a criminal defense attorney, but I also wanted to give back some way somehow to just make a difference. Right. Within the cases that I'm seeing or how their family's directly impacted. So then I went, moved into the family law realm and I was part of this leadership program through IndyBar. And Erica actually received this phenomenal grant. Was it the Empowerment Grant?

[Erica Sanders]

Community Empowerment Grant.

[Latoya Highshaw]

And as part of that, we, as future leaders of the legal community, we were to work with a great organization. And with me being in family law, I connected with Erica and immediately I was drawn to her calls and the impact that she was making on all these families. So then that's when we did a pre. Our very first, my very first presentation with going in the facilities and speaking with the dads that were part of usu. And from then on, I have just continued to want to just be part of it.

[Interviewer (Murder Sheet Host)]

So, yeah, drilling down a bit, what are some of the services and sort of things that U S U offers incarcerated fathers as you're trying to foster those relationships with their children and help them once they're out? Sure.

[Erica Sanders]

We have a lot of programs that we do. So we're currently inside two prison facilities, Putnamville and Plainfield Crescent facility. We have been approved to go into Pendleton as well. We'll do that later this year as soon as I get the green flag. We're ready when they're ready. And so all of our programming is done inside the prison. So before our dads get out, we have a fatherhood program. It's a monthly program that's facilitated by a formerly incarcerated dad. We also have Mindfully youy, which is a mental wellness program. So all of our dads go through biweekly group therapy sessions with therapists. There's two therapists at each facility, and that goes throughout the entire year. Every other week we also have Father Connection events where we offer opportunities for kids to come inside the facility and spend quality time with their dads. One on one, mom isn't around, it's on a Saturday afternoon, and none of the visit room restrictions apply that day. And so basically we party, we have music and we have games and crafts and we take pictures. And it's just a really phenomenal time to help either build that bond or foster that bond. You know, a lot of our dads either they haven't seen their kids in years. And when I say years, 5, 7, 10 years sometimes we also have dads that meet their children for the first time at those events. And then also in the visiting room, you're only allowed three visitors at a time. And of course, one of those visitors Always has to be an adult. And U S U dads on average have three kids. And so many of our dads have never had the opportunity to have all of their kids with them at one time in one space. And so those events allow us to do that. And then also the, the legal assistance program that we're, that we're here talking about. And that program is specifically for our dads that have issues related to their children. So guardianship, paternity, getting on, birth certificates, adopt issues, things of that nature. And then we also have a storytelling workshop that we do. It's quarterly. All of our dads receive a storytelling journal. It's facilitated by a gentleman named Anthony Murdoch and Circle City Storytellers. And the idea behind that workshop is that we want our dads to be able to answer three questions. Who am I? Where do I want to go? Who do I want to be? And then we also engage with families with our dads, so we know everyone's mom, grandma, sister, aunties. And we do that because we also offer barrier busting funds for families as well. But then we also want families to know the journey that their loved ones are going to be on with us for a year. It changes perspectives. It also helps foster relationships when they know that they're involved in our program, that we can share all of the hard work that they're doing. And then the last two things is that we also offer activities outside prison as well. So we go to the museum, zoo, you know, basketball games, baseball games. And those events are for all UESHU families, whether you are incarcerated or after incarceration. Just opportunities for us to be able to help financially, for families to be able to enjoy quality time together. And then finally, within the reentry journey, we provide resources, you know, basic needs, food, housing, shelter. We also help mental health help connect with different community partners and things of that nature. And we believe that by doing all of the things that we do inside the prison and also supporting them when they get out of prison, that our dads will not return to prison and that they will be present or more present with their kids.

[Interviewer (Murder Sheet Host)]

That's a tremendous amount of work and activities that you guys are putting into this. And I mean, that must mean a lot to some of these families. Like how has the feedback been from people who have gone through this program either on the incarcerated dad side or on the families on the outside side?

[Kevin Greenlee]

Man,

[Erica Sanders]

I can't quantify in words what it means to them. I wish I could read you text messages, you know, evaluation forms, but just in General, it means a lot. You know, oftentimes families are forgotten about in incarceration. They're going through incarceration as well. People also don't realize how difficult it is to try to navigate throughout all of the systems. And you know, on average, Incarcerated people are 100 miles, you know, from home. And so families often can't travel. So we offer an opportunity that if you're going to drive four hours, three hours and spend four hours at a facility, we want it to be worth your while, right? We want to be able to provide a great opportunity for you. So I just know that it's, it's, it's super impactful and impactful, meaning that when we reach out to families and let them know how we're supporting their loved ones once they get out of prison, it's really helpful because we share with them that they don't have to do the heavy lifting, right? You don't have to be the one to provide all of the clothing, all of the toiletries, all of the resources, all of the transportation, right. They can actually breathe a little bit and allow us to take some of that weight off of their shoulders. And that in and of itself releases a lot of stress from a lot of moms, you know what I mean? Not only just the mothers of the children, but the mothers of the dads as well. So, yeah, I don't, I said a lot, but I can't even classify it all in words, you know, what it means for them.

[Latoya Highshaw]

I will say I was fortunate enough to. When we first start annual classes for the incoming dads and I'm fortunate enough to speak to them, we started off by saying their thoughts about the UESU program, right? And when I say that, they light up with. And Erica's not asking for the praise, but they say how Yu Yoshi gives them this new perspective on life and mean a new meaning as to their looking forward to the next steps and whatnot. And then it's something for them to continue to work harder for. Right? And I've also had the pleasure of speaking with family members, with dads that have graduated from the program, are out, have jobs, have a home and reconnected and are doing amazing and their family is just like this has created a new start for our family all because of us. You. So it's impacted so many different individuals just through that one with that dad. So I've seen it all across the board.

[Interviewer (Murder Sheet Host)]

That's amazing. And it's, it's just, it's kind of common sense because when you think about it, if you are putting someone in, you know, in an incarceral setting and they're losing all their relationships and they're not connected to their community or their families, and then you're letting them out, that's not really setting them up for any sort of success in sort of being rehabilitated. I mean, it kind of sets them on a path to maybe making some of the same choices that they did before.

[Erica Sanders]

100%. That's exactly how it's set up. And we're there to disrupt it, but we're there to disrupt it in a. In a different way, you know, through relationships. Everything that we do is about connection and relationships and seeing people. Not for why you're here, but where do you want to go? How can we support you in your dreams? And I'm a big dreamer, you know what I mean? And I share with our dads. If I could sit down and tell you how I ended up here, you can absolutely get out of here, you know what I mean, and achieve your dreams. And so I'm also there as a, as an example. As an example too,

[Interviewer (Murder Sheet Host)]

if you're comfortable. Can. Can you tell us a little bit more about your journey and sort of what that looked like?

[Erica Sanders]

Oh, man, sure. So uesu, the, you know, the foundation of UESU is two things. One, I grew up without my dad. My dad was not incarcerated, but my dad wasn't a positive factor in my life. And that has been, still is the hardest thing that I've ever had to navigate. And then also within that, I also recognize as you get older, at some point you realize that, oh, your parents were people before you were born. They're like, they actually had lives and trauma and things like that. And once I really understood that it wasn't that my dad didn't want to be a good dad, he just didn't know how to be a good dad. And his reaction to that was to just not be around. Right. So that really helped me understand just his mindset. And so a big part of UESU is wanting to do for dads what I wish was done for my dad. Meaning that help him tell himself a different story in his head. Right. You know what I mean? Giving him the courage and the confidence to believe in his ability as he is and that your kids really could care less about all of those things. They really just care about you as a person. Right. And so that's personal for me in this work. And then the second piece to it is that When I was 15, I was in high school and I was a piece of work in high school and for a long time after that. And I had a mentor who just loved me and saw me and stayed with me with no conditions. You know, it didn't matter what mistake I made. It didn't matter when I didn't listen. Nothing. Just nothing mattered. The only thing that mattered is what she saw in me and the potential in her just wanting to help me. And it changed my entire life just having someone believe in me when I didn't even know how to do that for myself.

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[Erica Sanders]

And so that is a huge part of you Yeshu too. Recognizing that I'm walking into a room with dads in similar situations like my dad. Also recognizing what can happen if you just show up for someone as they are. I am so curious about how their lives will turn out by just doing that. And so that's sort of, that is the reason that UESU is exists and I always share with the dads, you know, throughout the year, you know a little bit about myself. But I didn't graduate college. Life was lifeing at the time. I had kids and I had to figure out my life in my early 30s and I just had to go do it and figure it out. And what I did was just made a decision that no matter how hard it was, no matter who supported, who didn't support, who said no, that I would continue on this journey. And by continuing on that journey I learned so much about myself and just became a completely different person. And without being fearless in that I wouldn't be able to show up in front of them and do this work. And so sharing that with them, just trying to encourage them to be fearless, you know, do things that are different. Don't worry about if it's something that you don't think you're capable of doing, go figure it out. It'll be there for you.

[Latoya Highshaw]

I will say that what gravitated me towards U yesu I had a similar situation. Well, I would say my brother, my brother had made some mistakes but he had young children and he's seven years older than me. So I remember, I remember I would take the kids to go visit him every Sunday and I remember the first presentation that I did with Erica, I said, I remember bringing my niece and nephew here to sit and I would take the quarters and my brother, he was a model inmate because he looked forward to making a difference, to getting out and seeing the kids and all of that. And the kids look forward to it, right? And so again, as they got older, they start to understand. They start to understand what, you know, he was in there, he's going to get out. And then luckily he. He had as a support system to be able to look forward to when he got out. And he is now he's full custody of his kids. And that's really all the kids know was him. And so I made it important, I think even when I started doing criminal law, you shouldn't judge anyone by their mistakes, right? And it was so important for me to become more active in U S U because I see, like really about breaking the cycle, right? Even hearing about her getting the dad's, you know, therapy services, you know, therapeutic services just to assist them. So it really hit home for me. So walking into that room, when I first talking to those dads, I was like, I was here every Sunday, and so it was personal for me as well, so.

[Interviewer (Murder Sheet Host)]

Absolutely. And that's just incredible. Like, I know. I mean, I. I don't think it's controversial to say for a lot of men, like, tapping into their emotions and like, kind of looking at some of those patterns in their lives can be difficult because I feel like men are not socialized to do that oftentimes. So even just the fact that you all are able to get them to that place where they're working through some of that trauma, I mean, that's incredible. It's such an accomplishment.

[Erica Sanders]

It's one of my favorite, you know, the therapy program is the essence of uesu and it took us a while to be able to offer that to our dads, but I always, I always believe that we weren't really fulfilling our mission if we weren't able to offer those services, you know what I mean, for our dads while they're incarcerated, because it is. No one will ever, ever, myself included. And I'm there a lot understand what they go through, you know, being incarcerated and what it's like afterwards. And you have, I believe you have to have therapy, you know, to be able to work through, work through that.

[Interviewer (Murder Sheet Host)]

Absolutely. And then, Latoya, I have a question for you. More targeted for you on the legal side of things. What are sort of the different things? If you could kind of go into Some detail about what you are helping these inmates with or you know, newly released people with. What sort of legal help do they need in this context?

[Latoya Highshaw]

So at a lot of times what you'll see, and Eric and I have been looking at stats as to what is the number one issue that they're really coming across. And a lot of is paternity.

[Erica Sanders]

Right.

[Latoya Highshaw]

Like anytime a child's born out of wedlock, we have to make sure that the dads parental rights are protected because it's not unless like you're born within wedlock. Right. So we are seeing that a lot where with them being incarcerated, we need to make sure they get service, you know, of any hearings so that they don't lose out on the chance of having their children adopted and then not being able to ever be in their life. Like Erica mentioned about guardianships while they're there, we do try to protect him or have a family member stand up and say, I will take the guardianship while you are incarcerated so that when you are released we can do the transition so that they can, you can get on your feet. But then also that we could reunite you with your kids. Right. And so we're seeing that. But a lot of times these dads, they don't know what to file. They don't know what to file to protect their rights or to even establish their rights. So what we've been trying to do is get a number of all issues laid out. We give out questionnaires to the dads with each incoming class. It's amazing what these facilities allow for us to do where we can even get a series of line up with some amazing attorneys and zoom and just talk to the dads while they're there. It doesn't even require us to travel. I've been able to attend hearings for some of the dads or even the ones that are finished, I wouldn't say finished with the program because what's so great is they follow you when you're released so that you're not just some of them have been incarcerated for some years and they have to, they need that assistance when they're out, but helping them with some just additional family law issues when they are out. So it's what we want to do. And what we found is that US Attorneys have to start even while they're there, to start even when they're out, to prepare them to become full time parents. So from drafting, attending hearings, a little

[Interviewer (Murder Sheet Host)]

bit of everything that makes sense. It's not just like, okay, you're out now, bye it's like, let's. Yeah.

[Latoya Highshaw]

And I think what, what is great too is that what you see in family law is that they want to see that a parent has put in the necessary work for the accountability and then also put in that work so they're ready to step in that position as a full time parent or even 50% of the time or whatever that may look like. And so what the USU program does is that they provide you with these necessary skills needed to be able to co parent, to be able to deal with the day to day of parenthood. And so it's more. So they're providing you with classes, certificate certificates and all that. So it really helps when the dads are released that if they do have any sort of legal matter, they're fully prepared to go in front, in front of the judge and say, judge, I have this, I've put in the work so early on so when they're out they can really just focus on getting on their feet and still be ready to step into that role.

[Interviewer (Murder Sheet Host)]

I'm curious, with the prisons that you, you guys have been able to sort of work with, has, has it been easy getting them to sort of onboard you and sort of cooperate? Have they been cooperative or has this been something that you've had to sort of persuade people over time? I'm just curious about like what that process has been like.

[Erica Sanders]

We've had an easy, a easy journey and I don't, I don't think everybody does. I'm just really just speaking for uesu, but we have a beautiful relationship, partnership, collaboration with the Department of Correction and with all of the facilities. So we are an official program. We have, you know, a contract with doc and so they really understand the work that we do and allows us to maneuver a little bit differently, you know, than other volunteer organizations. Like for example, it is, it is, I don't want to say against the rule. That doesn't sound like the right terminology, but for the lack of better phrase, it's against the rule for volunteers inside prison facilities to connect with the individual, to connect with individuals once they are released. So normally volunteers are not allowed to do that, but with our work it's kind of impossible to do that. And so they allow us to do that. It's also frowned upon to share personal identifying information. And for our work especially, we're doing therapy work. And we want our dads to be vulnerable and we want them to be honest and transparent. We also have to be vulnerable, you know, and honest and transparent too. And so even Though I don't identify, like where my kids go to school, you know, or things like that. They know that my kids are, what grade they're in, you know what I mean? I can share different stories and things like that. So we have a really solid relationship with Doc and it really, and it really just begins just having someone within the department, you know, vouch for us and vouch for our work. And then if we want to expand to another facility now, it's pretty easy or for us to do that. But it's always helpful to have, you know, a ward in from another facility, you know, vouch for us for another, another facility. So that really makes it easy for us to do it. So we really have an easy time. Easier time.

[Interviewer (Murder Sheet Host)]

That, that's great to have that institutional buy in because they've seen what you can do and they kind of are like, that's awesome.

[Erica Sanders]

Yeah. And I think they also appreciate for staff and Doc, you know, they are. There's a lot of turnover, there is a lot of low staff. So there's a lot of staff that do multiple jobs. And so we come in not wanting to add additional work to their caseload. And so a big part of what we do is we don't have many asks of the facility. You know what I, I mean, we want to be able to just offer our program in a way that they, it's not an extra burden for them, you know, if that makes sense. And so even though I'm a lot to deal with, I sent a lot of emails, we have a lot of programs and a lot of different things, but we try our very, our very best to handle the bulk, you know, of all of the work and to make it easier, easier for them too.

[Interviewer (Murder Sheet Host)]

In terms of the logistics of how dads enter the program, is this something where the families are coming to you on the outside and saying, we'd like to get our dad involved, or is this the dads on the inside saying, I'd like to get involved, can you please contact my family?

[Erica Sanders]

Yep. So how it works, it's the dads on the inside and we have an application process that our dads go through. So we have an application. We also have. So every incarcerated person, they receive a tablet with the Department of Correction. And so we have information on the tablet, there's a video on the tablet, so they can find us that way as well. Word of mouth is how we're found now. Like, we really don't have to do much promotion or, you know, or anything like that, but all of Our dads, they just request an application from their case manager. We solicit applications in November and then we make decisions middle of, middle of December because our program starts in January. So that's just the application process and then referrals from u yes, you dads. And then our criteria is you have to be released to a county in Indiana. You also have to have at least one of your children has to reside in a county in Indiana. We do not accept any dads that have crimes against children. Not because we don't believe that they deserve, you know, services and things of that nature, but because we work with kids and we bring kids inside the facility. We want to make sure that mom and everyone feels safe. And then conduct is a big part of our program. So you do have to stay conduct free or limited conduct, you know, write ups while you're in our program. It will lead to removal of the program. And any conduct, any conduct when we bring the kids inside the facility for those events is automatic removal from our program. And so we, we like, we like for it to be an easy thing, you know, for individuals to come into our program at both facilities. There's approximately maybe 13 to 1600 men at each of those facilities and we only accept 30, you know what I mean? So a lot of the dads will never have the opportunity to take part in our, in our program. And so we try to make it as easy as possible for them to join.

[Interviewer (Murder Sheet Host)]

We've talked a bit about the dad side and the organization side. I'd like to talk more about the kids of incarcerated dads. I was looking at the website for u S you and it had a lot of really interesting and helpful information. And I was really struck by one fact that's put out there and it's this concept that losing a parent to incarceration or having a parent who is incarcerated can be more traumatic than losing a parent to death or something like that. Can you speak to that about, like how much of a negative impact incarceration can have on the child of an incarcerated parent?

[Latoya Highshaw]

Yeah.

[Erica Sanders]

Yes I can. I was trying to think, should I tell a story or how you know so many of the kids. I'll start here. Our dads, they do communicate with their kids while they are in prison. That communication is very surface level. If I ask our dads, on a scale of 1 to 10, how would you rate the relationship with your kid? So many of our dads rate themselves really, really high. And I'll ask that same question to their kids. And of course it's the opposite, right? Zeros, ones, maybe I'll get a two, you know, or there. And that really says a lot about the work that both parties have to do. You know, you know, when dad gets home, a lot of our kids suffer because you know, the misconception is that incarcerated dads were like not dads while they were out. Many of our dads were active every day living in the same house as their kids, taking their kids to school. And so one day when dad is just gone from that situation, the impact that it has on the kid is very traumatic. We deal with a lot of, you know, issues within school. And I've talked with many kids and they vocalize to me that I just want my dad or I'm mad about my dad, you know what I mean? And then they have to go home and there's other circumstances at home with mom and other siblings. And so a lot of our kids struggle with socially, academically, physically, mentally and it.

[Latoya Highshaw]

And it's.

[Erica Sanders]

And if you ask them, they will, they will tell you it's because I just miss my dad. A lot of times dads are also, when I say disciplinarian, it sounds really mean, but not really disciplinarian. You know, I mean in that way. But, but kids are able to, they just, they react, my kids, they react differently, you know, you know, when dad is around, same exact thing, same exact thing. If dad was, was around, if that was home, you know, kids just, they move about the world a little bit differently self esteem wise and just, you know, academically. So a lot of our kids do suffer just from the day to day that dad isn't there and just not that connection when dad isn't there. And then also a lot of the parental relationships are strained too. And so that affects kids as well. And so the reason why that statistic, that's also one of my favorite statistics in the way because I think it really explains that even for me. Like I said, I grew up without my dad, he was nearby, but it kind of would have been better off if he just wasn't around like at all, you know, I mean it's a big difference when you know, like your dad is just down the way, but he's out of touch, you know what I mean? You can't reach him, you can't talk to him, he can't be there for you. That just does something to me. Just different mentally. And a lot of our kids suffer in that way. And also too no one really asks them how they feel. If you ask them, they'll tell you. Yeah, I ask them all the time. And then oftentimes I'm the first person that's ever asked, how do you feel about your dad being incarcerated? And then that's when they just emotionally dump all of the things, you know, how they're feeling about their dad.

[Interviewer (Murder Sheet Host)]

Seems like a very underserved group of kids. And like, we. We think about things like, for our true crime listeners, we think about things like, how can crime impact the survivors of a victim or things like that. We're not thinking about the other side. How can crime impact those close to somebody who becomes incarcerated over a crime? I mean, that's. That's just as significant. And, you know, it's. It's tragic that even if perhaps bad choices led someone to be incarcerated, they're not the only one who's dealing with that punishment. People who did nothing wrong are also dealing with that.

[Erica Sanders]

Yeah, it's not a. I was told a long time ago, like, the work that we do and how we talk about it is just not sexy. Right? And so, like, it's just not something that, you know, people want to. People want to talk about. But the same way as how we feel when we hold things inside is the same way how kids are feeling by holding all of their emotions inside. And a lot of kids don't talk about that their dad is incarcerated. It's a big secret. It's embarrassing, you know. And so a big part of what we do when we bring the kids inside the facility indirectly is also to show them like, you are not the only kid. You are not the only one that has a dad in the same situation. So our hope is that our kids also leave those events feeling not alone, that they're not the only kid, and that that will also help them in their healing journey too.

[Latoya Highshaw]

What I've seen too is it just. It's not just the dad and the kiddos that have to put in that work. Right. Which was amazing that how the USU incorporates the. The moms. Because I know that, you know, the kids probably feeling abandoned at one point. Right. But then the moms might have some hard feelings. But incorporating them to make understand that it is important that the kids, regardless of how you may feel about that individual, it's important to be have both parents. And with family law, I have to. Often I'm hired from one party, you know, trying to maybe take the kids away from the other party, but when you really look at it, there's no clear winners when both, both parents aren't in that Child's life. Right. So I see the amazing strides that u S u was making with incorporating, like bringing the moms in and having that, understanding that, trying to repair that and bringing. Bringing them where it's like they're not mad at their dads. You know what I'm saying? Like, I see everybody as a essential part in this to make sure to repair anything that's been damage there. So.

[Interviewer (Murder Sheet Host)]

Yeah, and that's wonderful because it's like when you think about it, like a kid getting to see not only their. Their dad working to. For self improvement and working to get out and fulfill his own goals and his own dreams, but they're seeing their mom cooperate with that and sort of heal some of that rift. I mean like, that's like such a. I mean, I feel like when kids who see that grow up, they will understand what a powerful act of love that is on both sides.

[Erica Sanders]

Yeah, I always share with our dads that when you're. When you get out of here and if you handle your business right and you stay not. Not perfect, you know what I mean? Just progressing, you know, just being consistent and your kids get old enough to realize your journey and what all you went through to get to be that person, you're a superhero. You're a superhero. You know what I mean? Like, once you figure that out and then even having, you know, Latoya and the other attorneys that we have, they all, of course, they're all family law attorneys. But the beautiful thing is that they all understand what we're trying to do, what we're trying to do here. Like even though they're here to provide those legal services. But Latoya also, you know, works with our dads in a beautiful human way, you know, that it's not just an attorney sitting down, you know, trying to help you. But the same way is that once when our dads maybe talk with me or meet with me, the same feeling that they have when they leave, you know, my presence or anyone we work with is the same feeling that they have when they leave Latoya's presence. That it's more than just work for

[Latoya Highshaw]

her, you know what I mean?

[Erica Sanders]

And for the others, but they really understand, you know, what our goal, what our goals are. And I think that really helps us do our work.

[Latoya Highshaw]

Great.

[Interviewer (Murder Sheet Host)]

It's such a mission oriented organization. Like I can just tell by talking to both of you. And you know, one question I might have, this is kind of zooming out a little bit, but for, for listeners who may know a child in their Life who has an incarcerated parent and is dealing with that. What are ways we can support children in that environment in general? Like are there any tips or ideas, you know, for people maybe beyond Indiana who don't have access to U. Yes. You like what are your thoughts on that one?

[Latoya Highshaw]

I would say there's programs, not just usu but connecting them with other kids. Right. To just be able to voice that. But I think too is getting therapy for the kids, right. One on one therapy where they can make the kids understand because that's, that's big fillings there, right. Like they're not going to really understand. Like my brother's kids were fortunate enough, they were little, like I was taking one in a car seat, you know. And so they truly didn't have those feelings in that moment. They thought they were going to visit him in like college or something. We had to make it, you know, in a pretty little package for them at one point. But I think getting them set up, whether it be a social worker at school, you know, where it's just like day to day, like talking to them about their feelings about their dad. And I think that right. Professional could tell them like listen, your dad, if he could be here, he would, you know, and kind of encouraging them to maybe interact with their dad.

[Erica Sanders]

Right.

[Latoya Highshaw]

Or whenever they're ready. So that would be my from the family law suggestion that whether or not there's a program or if they know somebody else at school whose dad may be incarcerated because like Erica said, people is taboo. Nobody really wants to talk about that. Right. But maybe as a parent who has the father of their child, maybe if they, if their father child incarcerated. Because what I've noticed is I have, I have a 12 year old and talk trying to get him to open up to me is like, you know, it's like what are you, why are you asking me questions? You know, and so. But I think they would be more willing to talk to somebody such as somebody at school and I think that could help them and then that would even encourage them to want to have that greater relationship with their dad and not feel ashamed.

[Erica Sanders]

You know, we talk about with our dads telling the truth, like not being afraid to tell the truth. So many kids and you know, in my experience parents in this situation and I get it, I understand that what we're dealing with here is you may not want your kids to know, you know, that dad is in prison. You know, you may not want them to know why dad is in prison. So of course, you know, encouraging mom, you know, Whenever. Whenever they're ready. But there's nothing like just telling the truth, you know, where dad is, why he's there. It really, really is beneficial in the long run. I just know from my own personal experience, I suffer not knowing the truth about my dad because I tell myself things. You feel like it's because of you, you know, the absence because of you, you know, the whole notion of kids are to be seen and not heard, you know, like. So we try to dispel those. Those myths too, and just encourage our families just to be honest about where dad is. That if we can start in dealing honesty, it'll be a lot better in the long run.

[Latoya Highshaw]

I think I was talking to someone the other day, and it was interesting because they. What did they say? It was like a parent and they said, I want to be honest. And it was all across the board because I was like, I'd never want my kid to. With that little, like, lie that I think I'm helping them. Like, it's helping them. Then they feel like when they fill out the truth, you know, they're going to be mad at me and they truly are not understanding and really it's not protecting them by any means. Right. And I think having them understand. I was talking to a dad at recent. You know, more recently with Erica, you know, I was talking to him. I was like, you do know that, like, if you're, you know, he's like, my kid's a little upset with me, you know, misses me.

[Erica Sanders]

And I'm like.

[Latoya Highshaw]

I was like, just let them know, like this. The simplest thing of letting them know, like, if I could be at your basketball game, I would, you know, And I think that go. That goes a lot. Just letting them know, like, words, you know, so just. I don't think it should be a shame that their parents are there. Be really proud of seeing the work that they put. They're putting in to get out to be with them. So I think that needs to be celebrated, if anything.

[Erica Sanders]

That's a really, really good point too, Latoya, that the work that we're doing is one of our. I never really thought about it in that way, so I'm going to use that. Is that we do. We absolutely want our kids to be proud of their dad, you know, and celebrate them at the work that they're doing. And they had to deal with me,

[Latoya Highshaw]

you know what I mean?

[Erica Sanders]

And, like, I could be mama bear too, you know what I mean? And hold them accountable and make sure they're doing what they're supposed to do, you know, and then we stay connected when they get out of prison. And so we become a family inside, like every UESU dad who finishes and completes our program at the end of the year. We know and learn so much about each other and go through so many things that people will never see, people will never hear about. It's just us in that room. We're family. You know what I mean? And families just, you know, tell the truth and. And they're honest and there are no secrets. But, yeah, we definitely. I love that. We definitely want to encourage our kids to celebrate the work that their dad is doing instead of being shameful about where they are. I never thought about it in that way, but thanks, Toya. I'm gonna. I'm gonna use that.

[Interviewer (Murder Sheet Host)]

It's brilliant. And it's. And it's so true, though, because it's like they're doing the work for their kids. I mean, 100, like, that's incredible. And kids are not being told a fairy tale of, oh, they just can't come here. It's like, no, they. They really. They truly cannot. But they're working their way back to those kids. And I think that is just. I mean, that there's something really beautiful about what you're doing. And I'm curious, you know, if people are listening to this and they're thinking, I want to support this mission. I want to support the work that u. Yes, you does. How can people get involved? How can they help?

[Latoya Highshaw]

Sure.

[Erica Sanders]

So a couple of ways. One of the ways is I always share with people because not everybody has, you know, means to donate. So if you don't, of course, donations are always great. You can go to our website and donate from our website. And the funding goes towards the programs that I. That I spoke about. You know, barrier busing opportunities for our dads when they do get out of prison, their family as well. But then also, you know, following us on social media, and that's helpful too, because we share a lot of stories and videos about our dads and about our families and the work that we're doing to try to help dispel the myths that incarcerated dads don't want to be dads. So we're trying to show that. So they're just looking for proof. They're more than welcome to follow us on Instagram and also on Facebook. And more than anything that if you're out in the world and you hear conversations or, or, you know, you see something, encourage people that, you know, there are incarcerated dads that are being dads, you know, that they are doing the work that they are trying. That's not a truthful. A truthful statement. And we're working really, really hard to humanize incarcerated dads. And so we just ask people to just think differently about them and, you know, do your research. Go to. You can go to our website and check out our research and go to our social media if you aren't able to donate, totally understand that more than anything, just helping us, you know, spread the word about the work that our dads are doing. And then also, if you are open to thinking differently, changing some biases about incarceration or about the justice system or about these families, that goes a long way. And we would also appreciate that just as much as we appreciate a donation.

[Interviewer (Murder Sheet Host)]

I mean, we should want people who are incarcerated to get out and leave and lead happy, productive lives from there. It should not be something where we just want people to be shamed and downtrodden after they get like. What we're supposed to have is a rehabilitative system. Arguably, we don't, but programs like this can help us realize what it's supposed to be and help everybody, help communities, help families, help the individuals who are incarcerated. And I think that that's so worthwhile. Before we go, I do want to ask you both a question. And that's just. When you look back on the work you've done, on the advocacy you've done with U yesu, are there any, like, special memories or things that really stand out for you when you kind of think back to that work as sort of like, kind of summing up your experience in a way?

[Latoya Highshaw]

Yeah, I can. I have two. So I. I say this often. I love if you're able to do what you like, if you love your work, it's a true blessing. Right. But you know, me being a family law attorney, I could be quite exhausted day in, day out with how highly emotional it can be. But when I say that, I look forward to every time that I hear from Erica about a new batch of dads where I'm able to just go in and seeing their face light up as was like a beacon of hope, right. That they do feel like somebody's hearing their voice for the first time, and they're. And they're so appreciative. They're just like, I'm happy that you're listening to me about my love for my children and giving me some sort of hope when they've just been beaten down about it throughout the years. And then so with each set of class of. Of men, it's the same. They all are so appreciative, all willing to put in that work. They're so proud of themselves with, and they should be. And then the second would be one of the dads that I was able to help. He was released, and he's a true success story. And we were able to speak at Indy Bar during like a cle, like a continuing learning education. I was sat next to him and he was so nervous and. But he was telling us about all the great work that he'd done and that he was like, I got married this, I'm that. And he was just. He is a true success story. And I would talk to his wife. Seeing his daughter and being able to see, I felt like I didn't do that much to help him out. He was so appreciative, you know, with that. He had kids and like, he was so nervous and it was just that human aspect of it to see. And he was talking to a room full of attorneys and he just was so. I was proud of him. Erica was giving him a hug. It was just the best experience seeing from how really of an impact it made, you know, on that individual, seeing it, you know, tangible. And those are my best memories so far.

[Interviewer (Murder Sheet Host)]

So

[Erica Sanders]

I wanted you to go first because I don't know that, you know, they're so. There's so, you know, there's so many. You know, I think I'll just, I'll generalize that.

[Latoya Highshaw]

We.

[Erica Sanders]

We have three opportunities for. To bring the dad, just to bring the kids inside the facility to hang out with their dad. So we have. We no longer do the father daughter dance. We call it a fatherhood celebration only because we want their sons to come. Some of our dads only have sons, and so they felt left out. So we, we changed it. But then we also do a back to school event in Halloween as well. The first event takes place in April, so we just wrapped up the first events this year. And so every year the first event is my favorite. It takes the most amount of work because I have to call every family and, you know, do a bunch of different things. But the first event is really, really special because it's the first opportunity on the dad's side that they sort of. They see their. Their hard work working for them. Meaning that, you know, some of our, some of our dads, they don't think that, you know, their kids will be able to come to the facility because they've been arguing with mom for the last 15 years and will mom, you know, allow them to come? And then when mom. I talk to mom and I know that mom is going to come and the kids come, you know, dad's focus and his commitment just goes up so many different levels. And then mom's focus and intention in the program also goes up levels to just being able to actually like, you know, have an idea. And then the dads work really, really hard, you know, begging mom to come to that event. And then mom shows actually shows up to that event. Like my favorite are those first events. You know, dads are so. They're so nervous and anxious about, you know, will this actually happen? You know, that event feels very far fetched to them. It feels like I'm offering them an opportunity that is never going to happen. You know what I mean? So they're used to things not happening. And so when that first event happens in those spaces, every single year is something that carries me, you know, throughout the. Throughout the entire year. So it's seeing those faces and those events is probably my favorite thing.

[Interviewer (Murder Sheet Host)]

That is awesome. Erica and latoya, it's been an honor talking to you. Like, we really just appreciate your time. I wanted to ask you, this is my final question for like every interview. Is there anything I didn't ask you about that you wanted to mention or you think it's important for people to understand some of the issues we talked about or just U S U in general?

[Latoya Highshaw]

I would say that I know you had with usu. I mean, they offer so many different services. So if somebody is wanting to become involved in the program, I mean as little as even volunteering for some of these events that they have. Like Erica had more recent Halloween event for the kids. Right. So getting the just volunteers no matter how small or big. And then even if you're a practicing attorney and wanting to become involved. What we've done is built this, which Erica has built this, where it's easy on US Attorneys to actually volunteer. Whether or not you just need to call in and provide an answer, a simple question for one of the dads. It doesn't necessarily mean that you have to be in the forefront in the courtroom. So if you really are passionate, such as myself or Erica, you can donate no matter how small, even an hour. It makes such an impact on these dads.

[Erica Sanders]

Yeah, thank you for that. I think for me, I would just really love and appreciate if people can just be thoughtful about families of incarceration and just not forget that they are also going through incarceration as well. And just to be mindful of the impact, the emotional, financial, physical impact, you know, that it that it makes on them. So if they could offer, you know, thoughts and good energy and prayers and again, some change perspectives for those families, that means that we really, really did our job.

[Interviewer (Murder Sheet Host)]

Again, thank you both so much for taking the time. It's been wonderful speaking with you and I just commend you on the amazing work you're doing.

[Erica Sanders]

Thank you for this opportunity and for even wanting to know about what we're doing. Appreciate it.

[Anya Cain]

Thanks to Erica and Latoya for speaking with us and thanks to Patricia McKinnon for connecting us. Check out UESU's website in our show notes to find out how you can support their mission.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Thanks so much for listening to the Murder Sheet if you have a tip concerning one of the cases we cover, please email [e-mail] if you have actionable information about an unsolved crime, please report it to the appropriate authorities.

[Anya Cain]

If you're interested in joining our Patreon, that's available at www.patreon.com murdersheet if you want to tip us a bit of money for records requests, you can do so at www. Buymeacoffee.com murdersheet. We very much appreciate any support.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Special thanks to Kevin Tyler Greenlee who composed the music for the Murder Sheet and who you can find on the [e-mail] if you're looking to talk with

[Anya Cain]

other listeners about a case we've covered, you can join the Murder Sheet discussion group on Facebook. We mostly focus our time on research and reporting so we're not on social media much. We do try to check our email account but we ask for patience as we often receive a lot of messages. Thanks again for listening.

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