Kevin Greenlee (3:31)

That day, Jones received an email from the seller, Salon Market. In a confirmation email, that seller wrote her, wish you a wonderful online shopping. Stay safe. Take care. Ebay estimated that the shipment would arrive between October 6 and October 25. The product was coming from afar, so shipping times could vary quite a bit. The carrier was the Sri Lanka Post.

Anya Cain (3:59)

Joan set up the order under the name Lynn Allen. She hadn't yet finished creating her eBay account and the email urged her to do so. She paid for the order with a Visa card. The price of the product was $25.92, and she also paid $1.81 in sales tax. That was the price of her novel murder weapon.

Kevin Greenlee (4:20)

The order would be delivered to Marsha's home in Freetown.

Anya Cain (4:24)

So what were these seeds? The order was for pong pong dry seeds. Seeds of the Cerbera odalum Natural pot, home garden decorated, 1 to 10 pieces, money back guarantee. On October 11, 2022 at 2:15pm, eBay let Lynn know that her delivery would come early that day. By 4:25pm she got a follow up letting her know that the order had arrived.

Anya Cain (4:51)

Yeah, I mean, I'd never heard of pong pong seeds. I had never heard of those before. So I had to do a lot of research on what that even was.

Anya Cain (4:59)

He found that pong pong seeds come from a tree native to part of Australia, the Pacific islands, and Southeast and South Asia. The Cerbera odalum. Its light green fruit contains a couple of seeds. Each of those seeds is highly poisonous. A small dose can cause a fatal

Anya Cain (5:17)

heart arrhythmia, and it's very, very, very dangerous. They actually refer to the tree that those come from as a suicide tree. Who would think, though, that you could order something like that, you know, on ebay or someplace like. And what would be the purpose other than, you know, poisoning somebody?

Anya Cain (5:35)

So in Madagascar, the tree was historically used to dose suspected witches. If an alleged evildoer survived eating the fruit of the poisonous tree, or at least the seeds, they were innocent. If they died, they were guilty. A trial by ordeal. Even today, this tree is frequently used as a means of dying by suicide.

Kevin Greenlee (5:58)

In the United States, it is quite rare to encounter pong pong seeds. They are not something anyone would necessarily test for. And while the seeds have a bitter flavor that could be masked with careful

Anya Cain (6:10)

culinary preparation, Lt. Nicholson thought back to Jones boasting about being a chef.

Anya Cain (6:16)

So some things that stuck out about that was like, that brownie, like, there was a picture of a brownie because they had made brownies or Ashley had made brownies and put the pong pong seed in the brownie. And when he finally ate the brownie, how excited she was. Like, she was asking mom, like, what's going on? You know, like, how's it going? And she and Marsha sends Ashley a picture of him with this brownie on his. He's like laying down in the chair or on the bed, I think and the brownies on a plate and it's kind of like laying on his stomach. And the planning that went into making those brownies like how to fix a bitter dish like her searches, like I'm researching now how to fix a bitter dish or we can use caramel to cover up the nutty flavor.

Anya Cain (7:00)

It was all right there in the texts. But he also recalled that the pong pong seeds didn't kill Harold like they were supposed to. They put him through a lot of pain, but he survived. If he had been poisoned as part of one of those long ago rituals, he would have been declared innocent. But Harald didn't get that kind of consideration from his own family. Mother and daughter kept trying though.

Kevin Greenlee (7:23)

Ashley Jones turned to Etsy to shop for the Dex murder weapon. Using a service called Hide My Email, she set up a unique random email address on December 1, 2022. That way she could plug in a new anonymous email into different websites but still get updates about transactions to her main account. She clearly thought she was covering her tracks. On December 1, 2022 at 8:19pm, Marcha sent her daughter $32 on cash app for meds. She said.

Anya Cain (7:55)

Receipts showed that Jones then headed to the Etsy seller One Stop Garden Shop company. She ordered from there. She placed an order there the following day. A seller employee named Devin assured Lynn that her plants would be shipped soon. On Tuesday. I hope this is all right, they said. Five days later, Jones got an email saying her order had been shipped and could be expected. From December 7 to December 13. She ordered a product listed as the following Bare root Cicuta maculata Water Hemlock Live plant Freshly collected Toxic medicinal native. It cost her $21.

Kevin Greenlee (8:37)

The order came in on December 8, 2022 through the United States Postal Service. Six days later she got an email from the seller.

Anya Cain (8:46)

Hi Lynn, I sincerely hope that your Cicuta maculata arrived in pristine condition. I'm confident you will love them. These plants may appear a bit lackluster since they are dormant right now, but rest assured they are incredibly healthy.

Kevin Greenlee (9:01)

They asked for feedback on her experience. On December 11, 2022, Etsy prompted Jones to start a bank verification process over fraud concerns and they thanked her for doing her part to help keep the community safe.

Anya Cain (9:16)

Again, Lt. Nicholson had to look that one up. He is an investigator in a somewhat rural Indiana county not exactly a modern day court of the Borgias. Cicuta maculata, commonly called water hemlock, is closer to home than the pong pong seeds. It is sometimes called North America's most poisonous plant and grows all over the place, from northern Canada to southern Mexico. Ingesting this plant can cause nausea and vomiting, followed by painful convulsions. It can be very deadly, but it

Kevin Greenlee (9:47)

did not work either. Harold did not die. He suffered, but he kept going. Jones and her mother seemed to prefer the natural poisons, but they ended up going for something a lot more mundane, more industrial, but just as deadly.

Anya Cain (10:08)

Twelve days later, on December 13, 2022, Ashley Jones set up another unique email address to shop on chemfulfillment.com then dynaline.com later that same day and also DIY Chemicals. That day, at 6:09pm, DIY Chemicals sent the Hide my email address an email confirming Jones's order of half a gallon of ethylene glycol. It would cost her $31.99. That would be shipped to Marsha's home and was paid for with a credit or debit card. The Topaz Moon Child account then spent $31.99 at Chemboys LLC via Cash App. That day, Marsha sent her daughter $35 more on cash App.

Kevin Greenlee (10:53)

Now, those of you into true crime are probably a little bit familiar with ethylene glycol. It is an organic compound. It has two main legitimate uses. It is used to make polyester fibers and even plastic bottles for soft drinks. It also goes into antifreeze, but that's

Anya Cain (11:11)

not what it's infamous for. It's well known for its more illegitimate, immoral and illegal use. See, ethylene glycol is a deceptive compound. It doesn't come with any of the usual signs that warn our bodies of danger. It is odorless. It is colorless. It is also sweet. That's right. It's sweet to the taste. It's also incredibly deadly.

Anya Cain (11:33)

It's kind of a heavier liquid, maybe a little syrupy looking. It's supposed to taste sweet and they say it could have a sweet. So it could be, definitely could be masked into food or drinks.

Kevin Greenlee (11:48)

Ethylene glycol poisoning is pretty common around the world. It is often used in suicides and homicides. Poisoning Lt. Nicholson knew that it was a bad way to go.

Anya Cain (12:01)

In the beginning, the symptoms of ethylene glycol poisoning resemble those of alcohol poisoning. You feel dizzy, drunk, uncoordinated. You're slurring, your speech, you're headaches, you're confused, you're seizing, you're feeling nauseous, you're vomiting, you might be very thirsty. Then your heart starts beating fast. You Hyperventilate, you become dehydrated, your blood pressure spikes, your heart starts to fail. If you're not dead or dying at that point, then your kidneys fail, you're seizing again, you're vomiting, you might fall into a coma, you die. If you catch this poisoning quickly, if physicians can stabilize you, you can survive. But you need to catch it fast.

Anya Cain (12:46)

Another message, maybe with the ethylene glycol that stood out to me was there was. And it didn't make sense at first. There was a ton of messages that didn't make sense. Like I would read messages and be like, that's weird. Or what they mean. Ten pages later I would read another message and I'd be like, oh, okay, so that's what that meant. Because I wouldn't understand or I may not understand what it is until later or after I read a message later, then I would have to flip back and go back and be like, that's what they're talking about. And then you always have to flip back again to make sure you didn't miss something else. They were going to make slushies. So the root beer floats wasn't the first plan. The first plan was like these slushies and they had went and bought everything. They had went and bought the green apple flavor, cherry, whatever flavors. I know green apple was one of them, but I can't remember what flavors they bought. At the last minute, Ashley realizes and sends Marcia a message. She was like, we can't use ice. She was like, she goes, when I thought about that, I was like, duh. And it didn't mean anything to me at first. We didn't know anything about the ethylene glycol yet. So I was like, that's weird, you know, why can't you use ice? I mean, what are you talking about? Well then once we got the ethylene glycol, that makes sense because the ethylene glycol would have just melted the ice. It would have just melted it and there would have been no slushies. It would have been a watered down drink, I guess.

Anya Cain (14:08)

On December 17, 2022, the United Parcel Service sent Jones a package notification. Her package originated in Baytown, Texas, traveling to Houston and then Hodgkins, Illinois, then crossing the border to Bloomington, Indiana, drifting closer and closer to Freetown. On December 19, 2022, at 7:18pm, the Topaz Moonchild email finally got a note from UPS. Jones 6 pound package had been delivered left at the front door of Harold's own home. Just sitting there waiting to kill him. Quieres mejor Internet Cox Internet de tresintas megas tiene las velocidades rapidas e comfiables que buscas perfecto para streaming y gaming y TRA bajar des de casa todo por solo cuernte y cinco de la res almes con dorrez Cox mobile include yaquipo de wifi y guarantia deprecio de dos sanos en tu plan nu cambia te hoy a Cox rejiere cops mobile gig unlimited cargosidades alme he was dead. The receipts and transactions and emails didn't stop there, though. On December 23, 2022, a few days after Harold's death, the service Meat Beagle reached out to the Topaz Moonchild Gmail account and said that they had located two 401 s associated with him.

Kevin Greenlee (15:31)

Then investigators found something important. Jones could try to claim that she had no idea about any of those emails. Maybe she got hacked. That's an implausible excuse, but it's an excuse nonetheless. But Jones blew up that claim herself. On August 22, 2023 at 10:57pm in an email with the subject line draft lease to own, she wrote, I do

Anya Cain (15:59)

the hidden email thing, but it's me, Ashley. I have attached it to this email. Hopefully it'll download here again. Some of its names ECT blank for now, but I wanted y' all to look over the terms and stuff and we plug in the rest later. How banal can a modern day murder get? Shopping sprees on ebay and Etsy of all places, concealing the most sinister of intentions. Murder weapons packaged carefully by unwitting sellers and shipped with tracking numbers via UPS and usps, with email alerts keeping prospective murderers informed about delivery dates. It's truly a surreal clash between the mundane and the sinister. But these sorts of receipts give modern day investigators like Lieutenant Nicholson a huge edge, piecing together the purchasing records for known poisons. With the text and with Harold's own symptoms, Lt. Nicholson was able to put together a strong case for murder.

Kevin Greenlee (16:57)

Lt. Nicholson had a case, but a body might give him even more clues, more evidence, more avenues to securing justice for Harold and his loved ones. No body, no crime. That's the saying. Harold had died a little less than a year before the murder investigation. Lt. Nicholson knew Harold's body could provide definitive proof needed to secure justice. But he also knew that it might be too late.

Anya Cain (17:27)

So Lieutenant Nicholson went back and checked out Harold's autopsy and death records. He found that Harold's body was autopsied at the Schneck Medical center in seymour, Indiana by Dr. Gregory E. Heaton with Deputy Coroner Michael Bobb present. Harold's birthday was listed as September 29, 1970. He was 52 when he was declared dead at 2:25pm in the afternoon. The autopsy took place at 9am on December 21, 2022, the day after he died. Lt. Nicholson read the report with interest.

Kevin Greenlee (18:02)

This is a Jackson county coroner autopsy authorized by Roger Wheeler. Harold Allen was a 52 year old white male with prior history of diabetes, hypertension, obesity, sleep apnea, osteoarthritis and chronic pain with opioid treatment. He had two recent emergency room visits complaining of facial numbness, nausea, vomiting and rectal bleeding. The patient was found at his home.

Anya Cain (18:31)

Dr. Heaton left detailed notes about the external examination. According to him, Harold wore only orange underwear. His shoulders were tattooed, his head was bald and his face sported a gray mustache and bearded. His eyes were blue. His body showed no signs of external traumatic injuries.

Kevin Greenlee (18:48)

Then Dr. Heaton cut open Harold's chest cavity with a typical Y shaped incision. He made more observations about Harold's earthly

Anya Cain (18:58)

remains which thank God that they that they had the autopsy the way they did because you can do like an external autopsy or internal and they decided to do and internals.

Anya Cain (19:12)

Harold's subcutaneous adipose tissue, or layer of fat lying directly below the skin was greater than 4 cm in thickness.

Kevin Greenlee (19:20)

Harold's lungs were smooth and glistening with no free fluid or blood. Healthy for the most part.

Anya Cain (19:28)

But Harold's heart was something else. Dr. Heaton found the pericardium or sac surrounding the heart extensively calcified. That calcification spread into the epicardium, or outermost layer of one's heart and even into the myocardium or muscular tissue of the heart. Dr. Heaton wrote.

Kevin Greenlee (19:47)

This appears to constrict and compress the heart with obliteration of the pericardial space.

Anya Cain (19:54)

When Dr. Heaton tried to remove Harold's heart, he found it quite difficult. It was even harder to get it out of the pericardium. It also weighed 560 grams. That itself was a sign of cardiomegaly or an enlarged heart.

Kevin Greenlee (20:08)

While the coronary arteries were normal, Dr. Heaton found a focal area of severe atherosclerosis with obstruction of 80% located in the left anterior descending artery. That means plaque had built up inside an artery blocking much of the vessel's normal channel, significantly reducing blood flow.

Anya Cain (20:28)

All of that meant that Harold was suffering from cardiovascular disease. The autopsy included toxicology tests. Harold had positive hits for gabapentin, zonisamide, bupropion, baloxin, fentanyl, norfentanil and oxycodone. There's nothing about poisoning, though one thing was very clear. Harold had a lot of health issues. Dr. Heaton made his pathological diagnosis.

Kevin Greenlee (20:54)

Death in this patient is attributed to calcifying constrictive pericarditis, Dr. Heaton wrote before signing the report on January 18, 2023. Contributing factors include severe coronary atherosclerosis and cardiomegaly. Post mortem toxicology was positive for opioid analgesics at a low level, which were reportedly prescribed for the patient.

Anya Cain (21:21)

Harold's death was designated as natural.

Anya Cain (21:25)

As far as medical personnel, there was no suspicion. There was suspicion on the family's part. So the family had sent some emails to the coroner, you know, saying, you know, they thought he needed to check into it. But, you know, the coroner's like, if he's got a pathologist telling him, yeah, this is what happened, you know, so. And the coroner didn't dismiss at all that this lady's claim. She told her that she would have to get a hold of law enforcement. And she never, she never did. But until we started working the case and then she had the emails that she. Where she had suspected.

Detective Burcham (22:10)

Yeah.

Kevin Greenlee (22:11)

An autopsy is not enough to necessarily uncover all instances of foul play, especially tricky ones with specific poisons. Murder is rare. We cannot say this often enough in true crime because to us, it does not feel rare. It feels like a constant drumbeat of gunshots and stabbings and screams. But that is just because we are all interested in true crime. We follow cases. We are predisposed to see more murder than others do.

Anya Cain (22:41)

In reality, murder is rare. When a middle aged man presenting with serious heart problems dies, that is an utter tragedy. But it is not necessarily a shock or terribly mysterious. When there is no real reason for suspicion, it is possible to miss things. So it is not surprising to me that an autopsy did not immediately pick up on anything. In the case of Harold's death, I should also add it is hard to catch ethylene glycol. It doesn't appear in routine drug screens. It breaks down quickly. If you don't know what you're looking for, you won't necessarily see it.

Kevin Greenlee (23:16)

Lieutenant Nicholson read over the autopsy reports. There was still something missing. Harold's body had been cremated. Marsha had apparently made sure of that. So there'd be little chance of confirming that he was ever even poisoned. That could obviously undermine any case. His body was lost to detectives. Or was it?

Anya Cain (23:41)

There was one line in the report that gave Lt. Nicholson and his investigative team hope. Dr. Heaton had done a cardiac puncture to collect a post mortem blood sample that was then submitted for toxicology analysis. If they could get a hold of that sample again, they might be able to run more extensive testing to find out what really killed Harold.

Anya Cain (24:04)

And per hospital policy, when they remove your heart, whatever organ, they keep that for one year. So it's kept in a storage area for one year and then they draw your blood and then the blood sent to a lab in Indianapolis. It's axis is the name of the lab. And they also keep the blood for at least a year. And so we had, you know, eventually, once we find all this out, we have access to his actual heart and the blood that was taken during the autopsy.

Kevin Greenlee (24:41)

After about three months, it might have been lost forever. But Lieutenant Nicholson got ahold of it and it became evidence. The more extensive test found something notable.

Anya Cain (24:52)

It detected ethylene glycol at 26 milligrams per deciliter. For context, in most situations, anything above 20 milligrams per deciliter is considered a medical emergency. Harold Allen had died from ethylene glycol poisoning. Detectives found the poison. Next, they needed to firm up the motive even more. On October 26, 2023, Lieutenant Nicholson sent an email to Jennifer Cruz.

Kevin Greenlee (25:26)

Very politely, he introduced himself as the lead investigator of the Harold Allen homicide investigation. Lt. Nicholson wanted all the life insurance policies and death benefits Harold was signed up for through his employer, iSent USA.

Anya Cain (25:41)

This was probably not the typical kind of email she was used to getting, but Cruz provided that information. Harold's employee optional death benefit was worth $50,000. And then his employee basic death benefit was worth $68,000. The check for the $68,000 payment was processed on January 9, 2023. And the check for the $50,000 payment was processed on January 23, 2023. The recipient for both Harold's wife, Marsha Allen.

Kevin Greenlee (26:10)

They searched Marsha's home on October 16, 2023. Deputy Justin Amos was, was one of the officers sent to her house. We reviewed his body camera footage.

Anya Cain (26:22)

A search went for the house and I, I'm going to explain some of that to you, but before, you know, like, you can ask me all the questions you want, but I know you probably feel a little bit maybe intimidated with all the officers here want just.

Marsha Allen (26:35)

Well, no, cuz, I mean, I miss an eye. I don't know.

Anya Cain (26:38)

Okay. Before I ask you anything, though, I want to make sure you understand copies of your rights. Okay? Then I can talk to you. I just want you to know, understand them. Because if I. If I ask you any questions, I have to know that you understand your rights.

Detective Burcham (26:52)

Okay.

Anya Cain (27:09)

Go down.

Marsha Allen (27:25)

In there. In that drawer.

Anya Cain (27:29)

She's coming to get her wallet. The keys in there. They're in a drawer.

Detective Burcham (27:37)

Hi, Kitty.

Anya Cain (27:39)

Hey, Isaiah.

Detective Burcham (27:40)

Sir, can you turn.

Anya Cain (27:42)

Just go through here and turn all

Detective Burcham (27:43)

the lights on for me.

Anya Cain (27:45)

Let me see what Bob wants to do. As far as the basement goes. He wants. Is that one big room down there? Yes.

Detective Burcham (27:53)

Okay.

Kevin Greenlee (27:54)

Marcia found herself back in the interview room once again. She sat down at the table, but she couldn't seem more different. She looked glum, bundled up in a heavy dark coat against the October chill. Even her hair looked darker. Glancing around the room, she discreetly wiped her eyes and sighed. Detective Burcham was there in a Navy sheriff's office sweatshirt. So was Lieutenant Nicholson in uniform. Marsha was flustered. She rolled her eyes. She wasn't uncooperative, but she was not happy. She was oddly still muted.

Anya Cain (28:31)

Is that she. You know, there was just a screenshot of a tracking number. And then, you know, we look at the tracking number, and then it's. And this is what it is. And then.

Marsha Allen (28:44)

I've never looked at tracking numbers that she sent me, and she's been doing that for years.

Anya Cain (28:52)

And it, you know, just was. There was a lot of concern on that day, or between the day that it was ordered and the day that it arrived, or the day that it arrived even on why it wasn't there as fast as it was, because it was paid for overnight. And then it goes right into the floats. You know, the root beer floats.

Marsha Allen (29:22)

We all had root buffaloes. If that happened, we all would have had something done to us.

Anya Cain (29:27)

And then there was some concern with her maybe not wanting the small mini cans. Right. Like, you maybe told her you had the root beer mini, like the minis, you know, like the kids would drink. Or a smaller can. There was some current concern about it being the cans being too small. Maybe you needed more. Like the two liters or the. Or the bigger cans.

Marsha Allen (29:50)

Yeah, we were talking about making root beer floats, and she'd want to make sure there's more root beer than there was ice cream.

Anya Cain (29:55)

Okay.

Marsha Allen (29:55)

Wouldn't taste right.

Anya Cain (29:57)

Okay.

Detective Burcham (30:01)

But anyways, Marcia, text Ashley and ask, is there any deliveries yet? And Ashley says on 18745.

Anya Cain (30:11)

That's right here, right?

Detective Burcham (30:12)

Yeah, but it says out I think it's supposed to be out. I think she put R for delivery, and then the mail was there. And that was at 7:17 on page 18751 is when the mail shows up.

Anya Cain (30:30)

Okay, that's here. Yes, the mail is here. Smiley face.

Detective Burcham (30:41)

What is being claimed is that you guys poisoned, which is not true, but that's what's being plain.

Marsha Allen (30:47)

All right?

Detective Burcham (30:48)

And that's why we're trying to figure out. Because when you look at these messages, it looks sketchy. I know, but it's saying that root beer float is what it was done. Okay.

Marsha Allen (31:00)

So we would all be gone if that was his.

Anya Cain (31:06)

Well, not if they. You know, it was only foot in his. If the. If the ethylene glycol was only put in Harold's and not yours or Ashley's or the kids, I mean, you guys would be fine. You see what I'm saying?

Marsha Allen (31:19)

Yeah, I know. She's ain't.

Detective Burcham (31:26)

And you said. She said, for real? Lmao. Laugh my ass off. She says, laugh out loud. He's on the toilet pooping and mumming some.

Marsha Allen (31:35)

Yeah, he had a. The flu.

Detective Burcham (31:38)

Said, laugh out loud. Which toilet?

Anya Cain (31:40)

Mine.

Detective Burcham (31:43)

She said, well, I'm sorry. Maybe it's the food and then the trees. He might just have to sleep it off and hydrate. So he was sick then?

Marsha Allen (31:58)

Yeah, he's been sick for a long time.

Detective Burcham (32:00)

Okay.

Anya Cain (32:02)

So.

Detective Burcham (32:03)

And I wanted to ask you about that, though, just because these accusations are being made and there's a picture of the food. You know what I mean?

Marsha Allen (32:09)

I sent pictures like that all the time.

Detective Burcham (32:14)

So it says, your order, raw Ethylene Glycol, 0.5 gallon times $124. You see where it kind of looks like you're asking about the ethylene glycol, though?

Marsha Allen (32:30)

Yes, I see that violin.

Anya Cain (32:32)

Well, it shows on the picture, like, the order steps. And the last step, if you look at the very top, it shows like it's waiting for a card number. Like.

Detective Burcham (32:39)

Yeah, okay, the card number was. Yeah, there's.

Anya Cain (32:43)

So it's showing the steps that she's went through, and then it shows the. The total.

Marsha Allen (32:47)

Right?

Anya Cain (32:47)

And then she sends you that picture. Then the next thing you say is, how much do you need?

Marsha Allen (32:54)

Yeah, but I never looked it up. She sends me crap like that all the time.

Detective Burcham (32:58)

Yeah, but you see how we got like.

Marsha Allen (33:00)

Yeah, I see how it looks like

Detective Burcham (33:02)

you're connected to this ethylene glycol.

Marsha Allen (33:04)

Yeah, but I'm not.

Detective Burcham (33:05)

Okay, but I mean, you see, it looks that way.

Marsha Allen (33:08)

Yes.

Detective Burcham (33:09)

I want you to understand why.

Marsha Allen (33:10)

I get it, you know, I didn't know what was going on. I just trust people too much, Especially her.

Anya Cain (33:31)

So if, you know, if there is something that, you know, this is. This is the time. Because, I mean, I kind of made reference this morning to there being a ticket. Like, one ticket? Yeah, like, that's just a reference I kind of made myself. The small morning, as we were talking prior to this, I was like, there's. There's a. There's one ticket, and there's you and Ashley, and someone's gonna. To take that ticket.

Detective Burcham (33:59)

And basically, if you know something, now's the time, because this investigation is moving forward. You're not under arrest. We wanted to ask you about this stuff because it looks a certain kind of way.

Marsha Allen (34:11)

I know it is.

Anya Cain (34:13)

And you were talking to you first

Detective Burcham (34:14)

about this, so, you know. And that's why I asked, when we were in Lieutenant Nicholson's office, you know, I asked you, you know, should. Is there any reason we find ethylene glycol in Harold's body? Because if there is, you see how this looks?

Marsha Allen (34:34)

Yes.

Detective Burcham (34:40)

Is there any reason that Ashley would have felt like you owed her money?

Marsha Allen (34:44)

No.

Detective Burcham (34:45)

Okay.

Marsha Allen (34:46)

I mean, every time she asked me. I give her money all the time. I need cigarettes. I can't pay my phone bill. Can you help me? This can. And I always send it to her, obviously, as you can see. I always send it to her whenever she asks me.

Anya Cain (34:58)

Never, like doing any of this kind of stuff.

Marsha Allen (35:00)

No. For any. Any.

Anya Cain (35:02)

Anything that she would have done when she felt like you.

Marsha Allen (35:04)

She would have asked me for money, and I would just give it.

Detective Burcham (35:09)

She wouldn't feel. And I'm just asking. She wouldn't feel like he owed her money for her helping you kill Harold?

Marsha Allen (35:17)

No. Because I did not kill him.

Detective Burcham (35:20)

Okay.

Anya Cain (35:21)

Do you know. Do you know if Ashley killed Harold?

Marsha Allen (35:30)

Not that I'm aware of, but who knows anymore? I don't know. I would hope to God that she didn't.

Detective Burcham (35:45)

I think we're. I don't really think I have anything else. I mean, she's answered about everything that we've asked her.

Anya Cain (35:54)

Yeah. And

Detective Burcham (35:59)

like I said, you figure something out about ethylene glycol? Seriously, I'm just gonna put this in your office for now, if that's all right.

Anya Cain (36:23)

Yeah.

Detective Burcham (36:26)

Shut this off. Let's go back out there.

Anya Cain (36:30)

Yeah. We didn't know. I don't want to sound like we knew everything, because we didn't. There was a lot of things that we. That we did know, though. Like, we did Know that to me, I felt like it was more than obvious that they. That they killed him. But we had to be so careful and so patient with these interviews. Watching those. If you were to watch those interviews today, you'd probably think, man, these guys have no idea what they were doing, you know, Know? And it would be. It would be easy. Well, you're an attorney, though, so, you know, you knew exactly what we were doing. But it's like, you know, we almost had to. To play dumb, you know, like. Or, you know, hey, you're doing it, you know, what's this message mean? Even if it's like saying, is this your message? Did you send this?

Anya Cain (37:42)

Yeah.

Anya Cain (37:43)

Yeah. Do you remember sending this? Are you sure that that's Ashley's number that you sent it to? So I wanted to at least lock that in. Like, yeah, that's my message. But I didn't mean this. I meant this because I knew that there was so many of those messages to explain away that there would be no way they could explain all those messages away. So, yeah, we just had to try to be patient. And I knew that we couldn't arrest Marsha. I wanted to arrest Marsha. I wanted to arrest her bad. But, you know, I also respect. Respect where the prosecutor stood and he said, no confession, no arrest. So I knew we had to get her to confess. And without really going at her hard, she could have got up and walked out of the room. And so I had to be very careful of that because there was a couple times I thought she got close to it with me. Clint would bring it back down, like, okay, he would start talking to her again, and he's really good at that. And I was more of like, the no nonsense. Like, okay, when are you going to stop coming up with these BS excuses and of what happened? Because I know what you're telling me is not the truth. And I think at one point in that interview, she had said something about the ethylene or something to. My response was, I don't know. I've never tried to kill anybody with ethylene glycol before or something like that. And you can see. See the look on her face then. I thought. I remember going through my mind then, like, I just need to get out of here. Like, I need to walk out. Because I let my frustration show at that point. And I knew that she knew I was frustrated. And I just kept waiting for her to say, I'm done. I don't have any regrets on what we did. I mean, I think that we. We did the best we could, and we couldn't arrest her. And that was frustrating, for sure. 100%, that was frustrating. Like, I thought, what else could we get? You know, murderers ain't just gonna come in here and tell us, like, yeah, I did it. And, like, we have all this digital evidence and. But again, you know, the prosecutor at the time, he's.

Kevin Greenlee (39:55)

He.

Anya Cain (39:55)

He moved. He moved out west. But, man, we were friends, you know, I like him a lot. I respect him, and he's smart. He knows what he's doing. So it wasn't my job to question him. So I just knew we were going into it with having to get a confession, and I wasn't feeling great about it, but we were going to give it our best and got her here, started talking to her about all that stuff, and it was just one, like, hate to use the word stupid, but, I mean, it was like one stupid response after another. Like, that didn't. Like her responses didn't make sense to the questions we were asking her. She would dismiss things that she said as being something that didn't even make sense. And I think she just wanted out. She just wanted to go. And so, anyways, Clint takes her home. I got another funny story about that, if you like funny stories.

Anya Cain (40:46)

Yes.

Kevin Greenlee (40:46)

Yes, we do.

Anya Cain (40:47)

Okay. You like those?

Detective Burcham (40:48)

Yes.

Anya Cain (40:49)

All right. Clint's going to kill me.

Anya Cain (40:51)

Do it.

Anya Cain (40:52)

So, okay, He. If he's listening, he's going to know exactly where this is going. I'm sitting there, like, rubbing my hands together like I'm standing over a fire, like, oh, boy. Get ready. So we get out of the interview with Marcia, and Clint had rode with me here, so I could definitely see his confusion, but I had to go use the restroom. And he told me. He was like. Or I asked him, are you just going to take her back? And he goes, yeah. I was like, okay. Well, I think he thought I meant, like, are you going to go wait to take her back? And so he gets in my car and he sits in the back seat because Marsha sat in the front seat. So they're in my car, and I'm back in my office by this point, like, you know, typing or doing whatever with this interview. And he. He calls me and he's like, hey, are you coming? And I was like, come where? And he was like. I was like, well, I wasn't going to. You told me you were taking her. You know, I was like, that's where the confusion was. You told me you were going. And he was like, oh, no, we're out here. In your car. So. So he's in the back seat because, you know, we don't like to have two in the front. And this person in the back, she wasn't in handcuffs. She wasn't in custody. So he's like, oh, okay. And I. And I had the body cam. I could hear. I seen the conversation after I found out what happened. He's like, yeah, he's. He's not coming. We can just take my car. So he goes to get out of the car, and it's locked. He can't get out of the back seat. He can't get out of the backseat. And so, yeah, Marcia has to get out of the front seat and unlock the back door to let Clint out. And he wasn't too happy about it. Oh, God. I was like, well, she would have been in custody. I was like, you know, that would have been really bad because, like, she could have. She could have taken off running or wherever she wanted to go. She'd been gone. Yeah. Or thank God Clint had his phone, you know, because, like, he would have sat there forever until I come back out. Yeah, yeah. Oh, no, it's. That's good. So anyways, Clint takes her back home. And I hate to go from a funny story to a sad story, but.

Anya Cain (43:06)

But that's kind of what this.

Anya Cain (43:07)

Yeah, it is. It is. Really.

Kevin Greenlee (43:10)

At that time, Lieutenant Nicholson happened to be working an extra security job. The sheriff's office had a nine month contract with a nearby electric company.

Anya Cain (43:19)

If we were off duty, we'd go out there and sit in this. This big. It was out in the cornfield, basically, but it was a gravel lot where they kept all their electrical equipment. There was, like they told me at one time, there was like million dollars worth of equipment out there.

Kevin Greenlee (43:32)

On the night of October 16, 2023, Lt. Nicholson sat in his police car in that cornfield. His radio was on. It crackled.

Anya Cain (43:43)

And I heard the address come over the radio. And I knew exactly what the address was because I had just been there that morning, you know, with the search warrant.

Kevin Greenlee (43:50)

Marsha was only about three miles away. That night, Lieutenant Nicholson rushed off to the home on the hill in Freetown. Once again, that house had already seen death. He hoped that he wouldn't encounter more there. Thanks so much for listening to the murder sheet. If you have a tip concerning one of the cases we cover, please email us@murdersheetmail.com. if you have actionable information about an unsolved crime, please report it to the appropriate authorities.

Anya Cain (44:33)

If you're interested in joining our Patreon that's available at www.patreon.com murdersheet. If you want to tip us a bit of money for records requests, you can do so at www. Buymeacoffee.com murdersheet. We very much appreciate any support.

Kevin Greenlee (44:57)

Special thanks to Kevin Tyler Greenlee, who composed the music for the Murder Sheet and who you can find on the web@kevintg.com if you're looking to talk with

Anya Cain (45:08)

other listeners about a case we've covered, you can join the Murder Sheet Discussion group on Facebook. We mostly focus our time on research and reporting, so we're not on social media much. We do try to check our email account, but we ask for patience as we often receive a lot of messages. Thanks again for listening.

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