Sweet Death: The Murder of Harold Allen: Part One: "It’s Ugly"

Summary

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Murder Sheet Podcast

Episode: Sweet Death: The Murder of Harold Allen, Part One: "It's Ugly"

Release Date: April 4, 2026
Hosts: Áine Cain (journalist) & Kevin Greenlee (attorney)

Episode Overview

This episode launches a deep-dive miniseries, "Sweet Death," examining the death of Harold Allen in Indiana’s Jackson County. What began as a seemingly routine burglary investigation spiraled into a tangled murder case, centering on poison, betrayal, and family secrets. The hosts meticulously recount the unfolding police investigation and the messy interpersonal web that ultimately raised questions about Harold's death and who could have wanted him dead.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

The Scene: Harold Allen’s Death and Family Context

• (01:02–06:43) The episode opens with the 911 call made by Harold’s wife, Marsha Allen, on December 20, 2022, describing finding him unresponsive and on the floor. Despite efforts by emergency services, Harold is declared dead at 52.
• Background is painted: Harold’s life, his family ties, his interests (Harleys, coins, firearms), and the affection, "Peanut." He had been in ill health–but murder would eventually be suspected.
• The theme of "sweetness" emerges, both in the literal (poisoned desserts) and metaphorical sense (betrayal cloaked in love).

The Burglary that Unraveled Everything

• (10:53–16:27)
  • On September 19, 2023, Marsha’s home is burglarized while she’s on vacation in Tennessee.
  • The safe—a key target filled with guns, jewelry, and mementos—was accessed without signs of force, suggesting inside knowledge.
  • Surveillance footage (from secret cameras unbeknownst to the thieves) reveals two burglars, one masked, the other unmasked. The unmasked man is quickly identified as Stephen White, Marsha's stepdaughter Ashley's best friend.

Sheriff’s Office Investigation—Evidence and Interviews

• (17:49–28:16)
  • Lt. Adam Nicholson is assigned to find Stephen White. He's surprised—none of the major players are known local troublemakers. White lives in Scott County; local authorities there detain him for Nicholson.
  • Interview with Marsha Allen reveals her conviction: only three people knew the safe’s code—her, Harold (deceased), and Ashley (her daughter). Marsha suspects Ashley gave the code to Stephen.
  • Marsha is devastated at both the loss of Harold’s personal items and the betrayal, suspecting her own daughter’s involvement.

Confronting the Suspects—Suspicions and Revelations

• (32:15–49:23)
  • Bodycam footage of Stephen White’s arrest: Initially talkative, rationalizing, and denying, he panics when shown video evidence.
  • Key Quote:
    “Let me smoke another cigarette. I’ll explain the whole thing, but it’s ugly.” — Stephen White, (37:43)
  • White attempts to shift blame, alleging Marsha orchestrated the burglary and, more shockingly, poisoned Harold to access life insurance money. He points fingers at both Marsha and Ashley, painting them as conspirators.
  • Key Quote:
    “This woman is a fucking murderer. ... Harold Allen was her husband. She set a life insurance policy for him, went and married him.” — Stephen White, (44:39)

Parsing Truth from Lies—Police Perspective

• (49:23–60:05)
  • Police remain skeptical—suspects will say anything to lessen charges. But some of White’s information leads to more property, names, and evidence; the other burglar is identified as Kane Napier.
  • The investigation notes that despite White’s clear fabrications and attempts to protect friends, some claims begin to check out—heightening suspicion around Harold’s death.

Marsha Allen’s Interrogation—Accusation & Defense

• (60:14–66:23)
  • Police confront Marsha with Stephen White’s murder allegations. She strongly denies any involvement, explaining Harold died from pericarditis, as documented in his autopsy and toxicology reports.
  • Key Quote:
    “That would show me a toxicology report if that happened.” — Marsha Allen, on poisoning accusation (64:28)
  • Marsha consents to hand over her phone for forensic analysis—calm outwardly, but she attempts to delete incriminating evidence while left alone, a telling moment captured on camera.

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• Emotional Texture:
  • Anya Cain on the meaning of "sweet":
    “That kind of sweetness isn’t just a sensation on your tongue. It’s safety. It’s comfort. It’s affection. It’s love. But so often in true crime cases, we encounter a sort of sweet poison...” (09:23)
• Marsha on betrayal:
  • “Three people in the world knew that safe. It’s me, my husband, and my daughter.” (30:04)
• Police skepticism:
  • Lt. Nicholson: “It’s not uncommon to have people try to say stuff to try to get out of that trouble...I’d never had anybody accuse anybody of murder, you know, so this was a first.” (41:02–41:29)
• Indicting detail on the night of Harold’s death:
  • “...she made a root beer float with whipped cream and sprinkles...poured something out of a bottle into there...she gave it to him. He drank it...An hour and a half later, he started saying, ‘I don’t feel right’...” — As relayed by Stephen White (49:33–51:50)
• Marsha’s denials:
  • “I did not murder my husband.” (64:15)
  • “He died because he had pericarditis. That was undetected.” (64:32)

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Timestamps for Important Segments

• 01:02–06:43 — Details about Harold Allen’s death, family background, and initial presentation of the case.
• 10:53–15:00 — The “sweet” theme explained and the burglary that sparks the investigation.
• 17:49–21:39 — Lieutenant Nicholson on being called into the case, rarity of murder/burglary in Jackson County.
• 24:22–28:16 — Marsha’s emotional and factual account of the burglary, and her immediate suspicion of her daughter.
• 33:00–37:19 — Confrontation and interrogation of Stephen White, his shifting story when shown video evidence.
• 37:43–38:03 — White’s pivotal admission: “let me smoke another cigarette...it’s ugly,” then blaming Marsha for orchestrating both the burglary and murder.
• 49:33–51:50 — Stephen White describes the alleged poisoning incident on Christmas Eve.
• 60:14–66:23 — Marsha Allen’s interrogation, her defense, reference to autopsy, and agreeing to surrender her phone while covertly deleting messages.
• 67:24 — Anya narrates Marsha deleting potential evidence from her phone.

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Flow & Tone

The story is laid out with the cool precision of journalism and palpable human empathy. The hosts use vivid, accessible language—alternating between detailed procedural breakdowns and deeply human character studies. Tension builds as evidence and contradiction mount, climaxing with an unsettling act: Marsha, even as she denies any wrongdoing, hurriedly tries to erase secrets from her phone, hinting at the darkness beneath the surface.

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Conclusion

This episode sets the stage for a complex web of relationships, motives, and muddled truths in rural Indiana. As the investigation deepens, listeners are left pondering: Was Harold Allen truly murdered by someone close—or are the most damning accusations just desperate diversions?

Stay tuned for the next installment: The pursuit of truth continues as Detectives and listeners alike are pushed to question who is telling lies…and who has the most to lose.

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Transcript

[Kevin Greenlee]

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[Anya Cain]

I'm Anya and this is the first episode in a miniseries about a simple burglary that led to a sprawling murder investigation in Indiana's Jackson County.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Content Warning this will serve as the content warning for the entire miniseries. This miniseries contains discussion of murder and suicide. It also contains plenty of profanity including racist slurs and sexist enablest language. We also have an additional note about these episodes in general that we will put up top here. In many spots, raw audio from the investigation has been edited to enhance clarity, to eliminate long gaps or repetitive information, and to remove things like specific addresses, passcodes or details about children. We have also edited and shortened text conversations to improve clarity, although we have left most of the typos because we feel they capture the nature of these communications and personalities involved.

[Stephen White]

We.

[Anya Cain]

The call came in just before Christmas on December 20, 2022. Harold Allen was not breathing. He lay flat on his back in his bedroom so his wife Marcia got a phone and rang emergency services.

[Stephen White]

911 yeah, this is State Road 135. My husband's in our bedroom floor.

[Marsha Allen]

He's non responsive and I need him

[Stephen White]

and all right, hold on one second for me, okay? Yeah. Is he breathing? No, he's not okay, hold on. County Units Medic 1 Brownstown Fire need to respond. 52 year old male, unresponsive, not breathing. Did you find him like that? Yeah, I work from home and I went back there to check on him because he's been sick and then when I went back there he was just laying the floor like he was trying to get up and go to the bathroom or something. He's not breathing. Do you want to start CPR if I help you? Yeah, I could do that. All right, here's what we're gonna do. Okay. Is he on his belly or is he on his back? He's on his back. Okay, you've made sure he's not breathing, correct? Yeah. Okay, do you know how to do cpr? I do. Put me on speakerphone. You go ahead and start it. Okay. Yeah, I got your speaker. One. Cpr is in progress. Any signs alive? No. He's just laying here with his mouth open. Go ahead. And he's white. Is he called to the touch? What? Is he cold or is he warm? He's a little. Little bit of both. Okay. You have somebody there with you? My daughter. Both of my granddaughters are here. Okay. I got a police officer. It's almost there. Okay. All right. Fire department's there. Okay, I'll go ahead and let you go. Bye. Bye.

[Anya Cain]

There was no helping Harold Allen. He died that day. He was 52. His obituary photograph on the Buchanan Funeral Home's website shows a bald man with facial hair. He wears a shirt with a silver waistcoat and a boutonniere. He must be at a wedding. He doesn't look old or unwell. His smile is tight lipped, but his face is friendly and approachable.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Harold was born in Scottsburg, Indiana, the seat of Scott county that borders Jackson county, where he lived with his wife Marcia in the unincorporated community of Freetown. Their home sat on a hill surrounded by trees with a gravel path running down to the state road.

[Anya Cain]

Harold had earned an associate's degree. He worked at ISON USA in Seymour, Indiana. His father, Allen Sr. Died before him in 2022. His mother, Caroline was still alive. So were his two brothers, two nieces, nephew and his stepmother. And of course, he was also survived by Marsha and her children, including her daughter Ashley Jones, Harold's stepdaughter.

[Kevin Greenlee]

A lot of people loved Harold. He had friends. Certainly those relatives we just listed loved him. Most of them anyways. The obituary says his nickname was Peanut.

[Anya Cain]

His wife Marsha would later tell people that he loved Harley motorcycles. He collected coins and firearms. He gave her gifts, beautiful jewelry with rubies and sapphires. For a while before his death, he struggled with his health. He suffered a lot. His killers saw to it. See, Harold did not succumb to natural causes. Harold was murdered. But it would take a while for detectives to unravel the truth about what happened to him. The Plot they pieced together proved to be one of the most shocking crimes they had ever encountered. My name is Anya Cain. I'm a journalist.

[Kevin Greenlee]

And I'm Kevin Greenlee. I'm an attorney.

[Anya Cain]

And this is the Murder Sheet.

[Kevin Greenlee]

We're a true crime podcast focused on original reporting, interviews, and deep dives into murder cases. We're the Murder Sheet.

[Anya Cain]

And this is Sweep the Murder of Harold Allen, Part one. It's ugly.

[Stephen White]

Sam.

[Anya Cain]

The word sweet is loaded with meaning. Quite literally, it's a taste sensation that our bodies associate with sugar. It can also refer to a piece of candy or sweets. Can even be desserts. In general, we crave sweetness. Sweetness is a signal to our brain that the food we're consuming is filled with energy. Sugar makes our brain release dopamine and serotonin, chemicals that make us feel pretty good. So there's an emotional resonance to sweetness. We call things sweet when we think they're pleasing or terrific. We call a person sweet or sweetness or sweetie or sweetheart when we love them. Think about a sweet treat. A delicious dessert, prepared, carefully prepared, just the way you like it, brought to you by someone you love. Your mother, your father, your wife or husband, your child, your friend. A little delectable gift to make you feel better, or celebrate a big occasion, or simply brighten your day. We all do this, right? I remember my mom baking my sisters and I brownies when we were kids. Or those Slice and Dice Pillsbury chocolate chip cookies. I loved those. I remember calling up Brax, the candy company, to hunt down a bag of all natural candy corn that Kevin could enjoy without risking a migraine. Sadly, they discontinued them. I remember ordering Kevin's special Canadian candy for Christmas. I remember popping oranges into our juicer to make orange juice he loves because the fresh stuff is so sweet that no extra sugar is necessary.

[Kevin Greenlee]

I remember preparing root beer floats for Anya. I remember melting marshmallows with her and stirring up homemade Rice Krispies treats together.

[Anya Cain]

That kind of sweetness isn't just a sensation on your tongue. It's safety. It's comfort. It's affection. It's love. But so often in true crime cases, we encounter a sort of sweet poison. Relationships that are supposed to be supportive and accepting and loving, that are instead abusive and damaging. Love bombing that lures an innocent person to their doom. Getting someone to let their guard down and then taking advantage of that vulnerability, deception, trickery, betrayal.

[Kevin Greenlee]

That's what the story we're going to share today is all about. That's what happened to Harold.

[Anya Cain]

Loved ones, if you can even call them that. People he was supposed to be able to trust handed him sweets prepared just for him, laced with deadly poison. The dose wasn't enough right away. They kept experimenting, swapping out different toxins in different dishes. Harold suffered agony. Then one day in December, he succumbed. This case was too sprawling to be contained and we wanted to tell this story right, to take you through all the twists and turns. So we're spinning Sweet Death off as a miniseries to better take you into this story in depth. The episodes will be released all at once so you can binge. This will hopefully be the first of other immersive miniseries we launch in the future.

[Kevin Greenlee]

The burglars didn't know it, but they were being watched the whole time. It was supposed to be an easy heist. They broke into the home before dawn, at a little after half past five o' clock in the morning on September 19, 2023 to be precise. The safe was their target. It was a big safe with a five spoke wheel handle. Within, they knew they would find firearms and jewelry and many other treasures. The burglars were confident they'd been told what was in the safe ahead of time. They hunched down by it in that room where the light had an eerie, almost purplish tint to it. Their voices were mostly muffled as they conferred with one another.

[Anya Cain]

They did not need to resort to any safe cracking measures. The burglars had no trouble with the lock. After all, they had the combination. For years, only three people had known that code. One was out of town, one was dead, and the third had given it over to the burglars. That person was the mastermind of the entire heist. The burglars unloaded items into blue bags and a laundry hamper and what looked like some kind of wheeled cart. They stacked guns in that cart until the thing resembled a quiver of thick arrows.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Nobody was around to catch them, but they were still seen. There were two surveillance cameras concealed in the home. One situated in the room with the safe and another captured black and white footage in a bedroom. They were both hidden and they were both activated when they sensed motion. The mastermind was not aware of them, so the burglars did not know to check for those. The camera in the room with the safe activated the moment bluish lights flickered on in a neighboring room. Then a man wearing loose fitting, all black clothes and a black hat sauntered into the room and headed right to the safe. He glanced around, looking slightly tentative. Then he shone the flashlight on his phone right at it.

[Anya Cain]

The other camera, situated in a bedroom only picked up black and white footage pointed across a dusty nightstand situated between a lamp and a remote control. It captured an open closet filled with shirts. The burglars squatted on the floor by that closet. They rummaged through a bureau. One leaned over the bed, at one point searching. They also hovered over the nightstand and dug through the drawers.

[Kevin Greenlee]

The burglars made for an odd pair. One wore a full black ski mask. The masked man moved with purpose, storming through the home. The other burglar's movements were looser, more fluid. He was less careful. At one point, he stepped right over to the camera. He flashed the light on his phone again, and it illuminated his uncovered face. He had not bothered to wear a mask, but the unmasked one was even more unfortunate than just that. In the bedroom, when he ransacked the nightstand, he gave the camera there an even clearer view of his features. He was a young man with a roundish face and a scruffy beard.

[Anya Cain]

And then, at one point, in the room with the safe, his companion called out his name, urging him to move quicker. The cameras picked up on all of that. The whole burglary was doomed from the start. The burglars and the mastermind should have known better than to go after Harold Allen's grieving widow. The woman had only just lost her husband about nine months prior. They should not have messed with Marsha Allen.

[Kevin Greenlee]

The simple burglary we just described ended up unraveling an entire murder plot. But in the beginning, it was only a burglary. That was how it first came to Lieutenant Adam Nicholson and the rest of the Jackson County Sheriff's Office. This podcast is brought to you by Avocado Mattress. And if healthy, comfortable sleep matters to you, this is one organic brand worth knowing. That's because what you sleep on actually matters.

[Anya Cain]

Most mattresses rely on synthetic foams and chemical materials that trap heat, break down over time or off gas. Avocado does it differently. Their mattresses are handcrafted with natural materials, organic latex, organic wool and organic cotton designed to be naturally cooling, incredibly supportive and long lasting. They're certified organic by Gotz and meet multiple non toxic and safety certifications made for people who care about their health and the environment without sacrificing comfort. I love that Avocado proves you don't have to choose between comfortable, supportive sleep and your values. And now during our Earth Month sale, you can get up to 15% off avocado mattresses. Just go to avocadogreenmattress.com get up to 15% off at avocadogreenmattpress.com avocadogreenmattrush.com to cover this wild, twisting story, we connected with Lt. Nicholson. He was the lead investigator on the case. We drove down to Indiana's Jackson county to talk to him.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Jackson county is located in southern Indiana. They've got both industrial manufacturing and a lot of farmland. Seymour is their biggest city, but the county seat is Brownstown. That's where the sheriff's office is, sort of situated on the outskirts, away from the lovely courthouse and the historic downtown.

[Anya Cain]

The Jackson County Sheriff's office is pretty cool inside, at least when you're history nerds like we are. They've got a Thompson submachine gun, commonly known as a Tommy gun on display. Bought specifically in 1932 to combat Great Depression era crime. We interviewed Lieutenant Nicholson in one of the conference rooms. He's very sharp, but also a super nice guy. An engaging interview, very open. He would not let us leave that sheriff's office without giving us some of those little Jackson county sheriff branded notebooks they have. Also, he's a man after our own heart. When he was younger, his dream was to go into radio broadcasting, basically old time podcasting. Now instead of that, he solves mysteries and combats crime. That's pretty cool. But to give you a sense of him, he seems to be the kind of friendly, personable officer that you want policing a small town or a rural county. That being said, we could tell that the stories of victims get to him. We started at the very beginning. To start off with how did you first hear about what was going on with this whole situation? How did you, how did you first get alerted to that?

[Lieutenant Adam Nicholson]

So it first happened as a burglary call. So Marsha Allen was in Gatlinburg, Tennessee with her parents on vacation. She was getting ready to start a new job back here. So she had taken like a final weekend vacation before she started the new job. And the call just come out, there was a burglary. And she was actually reporting that burglary from Gatlinburg because she had a home security system at her house and had seen a notification on her phone that there was movement in the house. Like after she woke up that morning, she didn't see the burglary. When she woke up, she mad missed notification and was able to watch the playback on, on the video to see that there was two intruders. So she knew who that was. So our detectives had went out to her house to see, you know, points of entry, gather any kind of evidence or Anything that there would have been there at the scene.

[Kevin Greenlee]

The probable cause Affidavit written on September 21, 2023 by Detective Clint Bertram lays out what happened at the scene. The Jackson County Sheriff's office was very responsive. They took the report quite seriously. After all, any burglary is a big deal. Even when no one gets hurt. Having one's valuables stolen and one's home breached is very violating.

[Anya Cain]

So the Jackson County Sheriff's office sent out Detective Burcham. They sent out Detective Sergeant Jesse Hutchinson and Detective J.L. mcElfresh. They sent out Bob Lucas, the county's seasoned at that point, semi retired part time crime scene investigator. The investigators headed up to Marsh's Freetown home, which sat off the east side of State Road 135.

[Kevin Greenlee]

A broken utility window on the house's east side appeared to be the point of entry for the burglars. Detectives mapped out the suspected movements of the intruders. The intruders would have gone into the laundry room, sliding from the window to a white chest type freezer. When they fled, they left a door unlocked as well.

[Anya Cain]

Meanwhile, Marsha was assisting with the investigation from afar. Again, she had those surveillance videos through her home security system. Clear evidence of the crime and an excellent view of the face of one of the perpetrators. The moment she saw that face, she knew exactly what had happened. But more on that later. Here's Detective Burcham writing in the affidavit.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Marsha had emailed me videos of the burglary, and Sergeant Hutchinson and I were able to watch them on scene.

[Anya Cain]

That's where Lieutenant Nicholson came into the case. See, the Jackson County Sheriff's office had this great lead, thanks to Marcia. She knew the unmasked man. She told police she immediately recognized him. He was her daughter, Ashley Jones's best friend, Stephen White.

[Lieutenant Adam Nicholson]

So the detectives had asked if I cared to, to try to locate him. And that's all it was. It was, it was a burglary. And we were just trying to find the person that, that stole all these guns. There was a bunch of guns and stuff stolen out of a safe.

[Kevin Greenlee]

We wanted to know if this sort of crime was common in Jackson County.

[Lieutenant Adam Nicholson]

It's not like a daily crime here. I mean, we're, it's more of a common, you know, major crime, I guess, you know, so like, like murder is a rare crime. You know, we, we've had a few lately. We've worked maybe one a year in the past, like maybe three or four years, but. So murder is rare in this county. But Burglaries are still a little bit rare, but, I mean, they happen a lot more often than that. So, like, every deputy here has probably been to a burglary at some point.

[Anya Cain]

In small and rural communities, oftentimes there are recurring troublemakers. I guess that's probably the case anywhere. These are individuals and even entire households that are constantly having run ins with law enforcement. That was not the case here, at least not for the Jackson county authorities.

[Lieutenant Adam Nicholson]

That was one thing about this case that was a little bit odd is being a small area community pretty much. Like, I guess the best way to say is like, everyone knows everybody. So everyone knows everybody around here. And I had never heard of anybody at all in this case. Like, I had never talked to Harold Allen Marshall and Ashley Johnson. None of them. I hadn't talked to any of them, wasn't familiar with any of them. And come to find out they were from Scott county originally and had moved into Jackson County. And Steven was still in Scott County. He was still living in Scott County. He had just came over to Jackson county to commit the crime of burglary. Got ahold of Scott County Sheriff's Department and asked them if they were familiar. And they were very familiar with him. They knew who he was, they had dealt with him. And they actually went to the house and located him for me and stood there with him until I could get there. So, yeah, I just pulled in and I asked the chief deputy here, Dustin Stewart, if he. If he would go with me. Since I was going out of the county. I didn't know for sure what we were getting into.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Truly, Lieutenant Nicholson had no clue what was in store for him and the other investigators.

[Anya Cain]

Before we pick it up with Lt. Nicholson and his search for Stephen White, let's go back to his colleague, Detective Burcham. On September 20, 2023, it fell to him to interview Marsha Allen, the victim of the burglary.

[Lieutenant Adam Nicholson]

Marsha returned home from Gatlinburg, and she did come in here. And the goal to get her to come in here was to be able to use her phone to get the videos of the burglary and to talk to her about the property, what property you have missing, to show her some of the property that we had recovered and make sure that this was what she was missing.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Now, I have watched the footage of this interview. I couldn't help but notice that the greenish gray chair rail in the interview room was the same as the conference room we sat in with Lieutenant Nicholson.

[Anya Cain]

The video of the interview also gives one a sense of how Marcia Allen presented herself. Born in Scottsburg, Indiana, Marsha was 52 years old in 2023. She worked as a medical assistant at First Urology in Seymour. In the video, her light brown hair was tied up in a tight ponytail. She was dressed casually. Sneakers, jeans, and a white blouse with dark flowers on it. She smiled a lot, but it's the rueful kind of smile of someone who's very exasperated. For the most part, though, Marcia was relaxed. She was relatable, believable, frank, A bit funny at times. You could tell she was quite irritated about this burglary. Understandably so. It's hard not to sympathize with her watching this video.

[Kevin Greenlee]

All right.

[Detective Clint Bertram]

I'm Detective Bertram. I think I talked to you a couple times yesterday.

[Marsha Allen]

I'm all the way back from Tennessee.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Detective Bertram's back was to the camera for the most part, so you can't really see his expression. He wore khaki pants and a black shirt. He was relaxed, too, and thorough. Responsive. He seemed on it. He and Marsha quickly built up a rapport. Marsha told him her theory of the case.

[Marsha Allen]

Five minute one shows Steven's face, Full face. And what cracks me up is he looked in the bedroom and he saw the camera, but the other guy distracted him, and he forgot all about it. And in the little straw people. I had one of the cameras.

[Detective Clint Bertram]

Yeah, I seen it.

[Marsha Allen]

Yes, he didn't. So he's pulling it out. You see his full face. I'm like, oh, Steven, you. And by the way, his mother's gonna try to bail him out and pay him off. Off, whoever.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Off.

[Marsha Allen]

Because that's what she's done. His health his whole entire life. He gets in trouble, she pays him off.

[Detective Clint Bertram]

Who's she gonna try to pay off?

[Marsha Allen]

I don't know, but let me tell you.

[Anya Cain]

She thought the other person with their face covered could be Nathaniel or Nate. Nate was married to white. Marcia sounds weary talking about them. She gives off the sense she really didn't like her daughter's friends.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Detective Burcham pulled out some photographs, jogged them on the table. He had very good news for Marsha. Unexpected news. A day after the burglary, the sheriff's office had already recovered some of the stolen items.

[Detective Clint Bertram]

All right, well, I'll tell you that. We recovered these rings. We recovered a lot of guns.

[Marsha Allen]

If you got the duffel bag, you probably have all my.

[Detective Clint Bertram]

We do have at least one duffel bag.

[Lieutenant Adam Nicholson]

Maybe more.

[Detective Clint Bertram]

I'm not sure. Don't quote me.

[Marsha Allen]

Yeah, they took two of them.

[Detective Clint Bertram]

Because. Because we recovered a Lot of things. And we haven't even went through all the bags that we've recovered.

[Marsha Allen]

I'm hoping you guys, let me see if I got a picture of my wedding rings on here.

[Anya Cain]

A safe full of mementos, all those memories. Imagine losing someone in your own life and then having someone else smash a window, come into your house and steal their items away.

[Marsha Allen]

And my little black cat's missing, so, yeah, I remembered.

[Detective Clint Bertram]

I think.

[Stephen White]

I don't remember.

[Detective Clint Bertram]

The dispatch told us she was a

[Marsha Allen]

rescue, and she's nowhere in the house. They even went to the basement and went through everything. They got his mandolin. They got a bunch of his collectible Star wars stuff. They got. I mean, they got so much stuff. Okay, So I had 22 shotguns. He had. No, he had 26 shotguns, 22 handguns, and plus my dad's one gun.

[Detective Clint Bertram]

Do you have any serial numbers for any of yours? Oh, that is awesome.

[Marsha Allen]

Can you get a copy of that?

[Detective Clint Bertram]

I can, yes. I will make.

[Marsha Allen]

They took my ruby necklace, my sapphire earrings, my sapphire necklace, my 1.5-karat ring, my husband's buddy band, which has my. My love inscribed in it. And they took my wing set, too. Oh, that Gibson mandala. He would die if he knew that. They took that. That's worth almost $3,000. They took all three of my battery chargers, my Dewalt battery chargers, which I thought was odd. That's another thing. They took my own bag and just took everything. They took my gray bag. I'm like, really?

[Detective Clint Bertram]

Yeah.

[Marsha Allen]

Okay. My husband died in December.

[Detective Clint Bertram]

What's your husband's name?

[Marsha Allen]

Harold Allen.

[Detective Clint Bertram]

Your husband.

[Marsha Allen]

They took his wallet. They took his ring. They took a lot of things. Yeah, they took everything.

[Anya Cain]

It's hard not to feel for Marcia. The safe was filled with those precious memories, items that represented the personality and interests of her late husband. Thinking back on Harold, she posed a question to Detective Burcham.

[Marsha Allen]

Were you the only ones that came out there when my husband died?

[Detective Clint Bertram]

I don't believe I was.

[Marsha Allen]

I mean, there's so many people at my house. I think there's like, 40 people at my house. I couldn't tell you. One of them was.

[Anya Cain]

Then it was back to business.

[Kevin Greenlee]

The missing guns were of a particular concern to the Jackson County Sheriff's Office. Those stolen firearms could end up back on the street, sold in the black market. They could end up being weapons used in all manner of crime, including murder. So understandably, Detective Burcham wanted to know more about those.

[Anya Cain]

Marcia was prepared. She was ready.

[Marsha Allen]

So I had 22 shotguns. He had. No. He had 26 shotguns, 22 handguns, and plus my dad's one gun.

[Detective Clint Bertram]

Do you have any serial numbers for any of your. Oh, that is awesome.

[Marsha Allen]

Can you get a copy of that?

[Detective Clint Bertram]

I can, yes.

[Kevin Greenlee]

I will make the ever helpful Detective Burcham had more good news to share with Marsha.

[Detective Clint Bertram]

We made two arrests in this case. Okay. We arrested Stephen.

[Anya Cain]

That probably wasn't the end of it, though. Not at least according to Marsha. She shared her thoughts with Detective Burcham. She didn't think White was behind the burglary after all. He had the code to the safe. No, it would have had to have been someone closer to home.

[Marsha Allen]

I guarantee it's gonna be my daughter who texted him that combination to that safe.

[Detective Clint Bertram]

So I was going to ask you a little bit more about that, too.

[Marsha Allen]

Three people in the world knew that safe. It's me, my husband, and my daughter.

[Anya Cain]

My husband's dead.

[Marsha Allen]

I was in Tennessee, and her and Steven are best friends.

[Detective Clint Bertram]

Okay, so that would have been you, your husband, who was deceased,

[Marsha Allen]

and my daughter. Was she denying everything?

[Detective Clint Bertram]

You talk to her?

[Marsha Allen]

Yeah, she.

[Detective Clint Bertram]

Your daughter's name is Ashley Jones, correct?

[Marsha Allen]

That is correct. I feel bad because she's got a little crawling.

[Detective Clint Bertram]

Where does she leave living?

[Marsha Allen]

She's in Missouri.

[Detective Clint Bertram]

She's in Missouri. Okay. That complicate. Complicates things just a little bit.

[Anya Cain]

Marcia was still in a bit of shock about what she believed her daughter had done to her.

[Detective Clint Bertram]

So what did your daughter. You said you talked to your daughter. What is she saying?

[Marsha Allen]

She's denying it. She goes, he's trying to drag me down. I'm like, Ashley. I said, I have proof. Because there's only three people in the world that know it is me, my husband, and her. I didn't do it. I can get it out. He died, so he can't get it out. At least one person. Process of elimination.

[Anya Cain]

Marcia didn't realize the extent to which the Jackson County Sheriff's Office was also engaged in some process of elimination in putting the puzzle pieces together. Had she known, she might have forgotten all of Harold's valuables, turned her back on the helpful and friendly detective, and run straight out of that interview room. Because soon there would be no going back to talk about what happened next. We must go back one day, back to September 19, 2023. We need to follow along with Lieutenant Nicholson. Remember, this is the day of the burglary. It was a sunny afternoon in southern Indiana. Bright blue skies. The body camera footage opened up on a gravel drive bordering a Dry, dusty field clogged with vehicles, including a City of Austin police car. That's Austin, Indiana, of course, in Scott county, Not Austin, Texas.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Lt. Nicholson and Chief Deputy Dustin Stewart headed to where Stephen White was holed up. He was staying with his parents at the time. The whole place had an air of mild chaos. Law enforcement officers gathered around. A friendly brown dog frolicked by them, wagging its tail. A man sat in a parked pickup truck, staring at the officers. A woman milled about. A big black and white dog joined the smaller brown dog in greeting the newcomers. Then Stephen White appeared. He was a man with dark curly hair and tattooed arms. He wore dark sunglasses, a gray shirt and dark pants. He held a bottle of water in one hand and a cigarette in the other.

[Lieutenant Adam Nicholson]

He was just really talkative, you know, he wanted to talk about everything, but you know, why I was there. But he was telling me, you know, he was sick, he had strep throat. He. It was just like he was delaying the process, you know, like so.

[Anya Cain]

White was animated. Not in a threatening way, just very emphatic.

[Stephen White]

But there is an epo. The court date is today. We've already talked about that and discussed that with the police officers here. Because his parents forced him to put an EPO out.

[Lieutenant Adam Nicholson]

That's not why we're here.

[Stephen White]

I know. I was just letting you know that that's. We've spoken with the police about that and he's called the Dutch. Let him know.

[Lieutenant Adam Nicholson]

He wants. I want to make sure, you know. Before you say anything else, I want to make sure you understand your rights. Okay.

[Anya Cain]

White led Lt. Nicholson and Chief Deputy Steward further down the gravel drive. Leaning up against a red car parked there, he smeared Chapstick on his lips and went back to smoking his cigarette.

[Stephen White]

They said that y' all got me on camera last night burglarizing the place.

[Lieutenant Adam Nicholson]

Okay.

[Stephen White]

So you and my husband, if that's

[Lieutenant Adam Nicholson]

the case, you know anything about it?

[Stephen White]

No.

[Lieutenant Adam Nicholson]

Okay.

[Kevin Greenlee]

He didn't shut up, though. A talkative suspect is a gift for law enforcement. The more you talk, the more they collect evidence that can either be corroborated or more likely than not, disproven later. And White was sure talkative. The body camera footage we reviewed runs about an hour. White had a certain charisma to him, that charisma that's common to habitual criminals, the ability to lie while sounding reasonable.

[Stephen White]

My husband and I sat up last night till about 4 o' clock in the morning. Watching? Nope, he's off work today. He works at genpact. We Started the movie a couple weeks ago. Haven't had time to finish it. I personally think I have strep or something. Been running a fever. My tongue is all swollen and sore and my mouth is red and white. So just let y' all know that I've laid up in there sick. I've been having diarrhea shits all night. Like our kids with school this morning, that was about it. I stood up on the balcony and said bye to the kids so they don't get sick. They're at school right now. I know my car was stolen yesterday.

[Anya Cain]

Remember, Marcia was on the road from Tennessee with her elderly parents at this point. So there was a delay in her sending over those big video files to detectives. But Lieutenant Nicholson knew that the video would be the key to the case against White.

[Lieutenant Adam Nicholson]

I feel like we let him talk as much as we could, and we knew we had something that we normally don't have, and that's the video. So we were just kind of waiting on that. And so we kind of let him set his own trap.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Finally, the pictures came in. The investigators held up the phone so White could view the still images from the video. He pulled up his sunglasses and gazed at the screen, looking incredulous.

[Lieutenant Adam Nicholson]

There's the picture.

[Stephen White]

And that's just one of the five

[Lieutenant Adam Nicholson]

that they sent us.

[Stephen White]

And they got video, too, and we got video.

[Lieutenant Adam Nicholson]

That's just a still shot from a video.

[Stephen White]

Hold on, let me see here. I mean, I really do not have. Have a hat. I don't even have a hat.

[Lieutenant Adam Nicholson]

What about the car or the car that you're in there?

[Stephen White]

This here's my car. Somebody stole it from me on Sunday night. And how'd you get it back then? Because I filed a police report and we found it over here. But I had three keys for this, and I had my one set of keys in there. The other keys I'm pretty sure is in my somewhere. So listen, I have my seconds.

[Lieutenant Adam Nicholson]

So listen, I just want you. Want you to know, okay, that there's more than just that picture. All right?

[Stephen White]

You've seen it.

[Lieutenant Adam Nicholson]

90 of the burglaries or.

[Stephen White]

Or break ins that we work.

[Lieutenant Adam Nicholson]

If we can make our. Our victim, the person that was stolen from, happy, if we can get their stuff back, that's going to make all the difference in the world. Okay? So. So right now, for you, this is the key moment. And what happens from here, for Lieutenant

[Anya Cain]

Nicholson, that moment shifted things just not in the way the investigators expected.

[Lieutenant Adam Nicholson]

And I think that's when he realized, you know, we weren't there by mistake. I think he realized how serious it was at that point, that what we had and something we really don't like to do, show somebody our cards. And he was kind of. He kind of forced us into, like, showing what cards we had. We knew he was there.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Something shifted. White seemed to relent.

[Stephen White]

Let me smoke another cigarette. I'll explain the whole thing, but it's ugly.

[Anya Cain]

It was indeed ugly. White said that he had not set up the burglary. He gave them the name of the person who arranged the whole thing. Marcia herself. And that was not the only crime Marsha was guilty of, according to White, at least.

[Stephen White]

Her husband, Harold Allen, passed away of unknown causes in December.

[Lieutenant Adam Nicholson]

Okay?

[Stephen White]

And according to her husband passed away because she needed that life insurance money. But she did not get that life insurance money because the policy was set to go to his brother. She gave me an address. She said, hey, honey, I need you to go up in here. I need you to grab someone and go up in here. And she told me to meet this dude up there. And I did.

[Anya Cain]

That's right. Caught dead to rights in a burglary, Stephen White started claiming to have information about a murder that implicated his victim.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Now, Lieutenant Nicholson and the other law enforcement officers were understandably skeptical. By White's own account, he and Marsha were hardly close.

[Stephen White]

This woman has hated me for years, but I'm best friends with her daughter.

[Lieutenant Adam Nicholson]

Okay? What's her daughter's name?

[Stephen White]

Ashley Jones. She don't live here. She lives out in fucking New Mexico somewhere right now. Because she told her mom she was not satisfied, I guess. Apparently Marcia asked Ashley if she could help her take care of her husband. And Ashley has a little baby that's mixed, and pardon my French, she was going on and on about how I got asked as a lesbian, she's with a Puerto Rican woman. And Marsha was going on and on about, you don't need to be with none of them fucking spooks. You just need to come home and live with me. Trust me, after Christmas, I'll have enough money to take care of us all for the rest of our lives. That's how she is. So she told me, and I already deleted all the messages like she asked me to. She said, hey, I'll give you $3,000, you can go to my house. Gave me the safe code.

[Lieutenant Adam Nicholson]

Marsha did or ask.

[Stephen White]

Yes, Marsha did. She said, you go down there, you can get this. And I need it all taken somewhere, please, because his brothers is trying to get into my house and they Want to take me to court and take all of his Harold's guns.

[Anya Cain]

What's more, it wasn't as if Stephen White had much to back up what he was saying.

[Stephen White]

And I, I don't have no, no messages. I don't have no proof of this, guys. I'm sorry. I don't. I deleted it because I'm like sitting here like I have to choose between camping out my parents garage or you could pay me $3,000 to get your and move it down here. I'm supposed to wait until her mom and dad get home. Teresa and Alan White, because they don't know nothing about it. They're old, they're like kind of getting Marsha's mom and dad, Teresa. Now I'm white and they're getting kind of loopy. But so Marcia, when I got back home from Tennessee, was going to come over here because I told her, listen, I'm. Pardon my French, no, you're fine. But I said, listen, I'm not. I got two kids, my husband is schizophrenic, my dad is running from there. We got a lot of going on.

[Kevin Greenlee]

We can understand why Lt. Nicholson seemed dubious of White's story.

[Lieutenant Adam Nicholson]

I mean, yeah, you hear people say things all the time when they're. They know they're in trouble. They know that they're going to be maybe looking at jail time for a felony like burglary. And so it's not uncommon to have people try to say stuff to try to get out of that trouble.

[Anya Cain]

Still, White's post bust claims did stand out in one way.

[Lieutenant Adam Nicholson]

I'd never had anybody accuse anybody of murder, you know, so this was a first.

[Anya Cain]

White shared with the investigators that he knew all about the trip to Gatlinburg, Tennessee. He said that Marsha had given him all sorts of details about the house, about what she wanted him to do with the stuff he was to steal, about how to get through one of the windows using a rock she had placed just outside and a hole she had already cut. The whole thing was supposed to be perfect, maybe a bit too perfect.

[Stephen White]

I got what I could get. She told me to go on Monday night and Tuesday night. And it sounds to me like she's setting me up real quick because she said she wanted it to be removed from her exact words, I want this to be removed from the house before I get back from Tennessee and set up my cameras because I need to be able to tell his brothers that all these things were gone because they're mine and I don't want them to try to fight me in court over it over an inherit, like, you know, what. Text? Yeah, from a text. Now, number that she had the messages. Would she have the text messages on her phone? Possibly. She wouldn't. She wouldn't have them. I'm sure she wouldn't because she told me. Oh, well, make sure you delete all this stuff, cuz. Hello? Sorry. Hey, listen, I'm sitting here talking to some cops about some. That's going on right now, bro. I really. I was getting ready to go to the doctor and then come by and grab you a. If I didn't have strep, but I'm not gonna be able to get you to work today, man. I'm sorry. I'm sick as fuck. And now there's a lot of shit going on. I'm probably gonna get fucking arrested and go to jail.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Well, that was certainly prescient. And the other burglar, the masked one, White, claimed to have never seen him before in his life, but he was suspicious of that guy's motives too.

[Stephen White]

She told me to be careful. And he kept hollering and screaming. And here's what's fucked up. He kept screaming my name, Stephen, Stephen, Stephen. I really. For a moment, that's really fucked up.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Lieutenant Nicholson and Chief Deputy Steward had enough to arrest White for burglary. They weren't sure what to make of his story. They would need to do more digging. They were not about to dismiss anything he said out of hand, nor were they prepared to believe it either. That is the mark of a great investigation. Instead of getting fixated on one possibility, a good detective waits for corroboration.

[Lieutenant Adam Nicholson]

I didn't dismiss it totally. You know, I listened to what he had to say and. But I didn't really question him about it either. I may have been like, d. What? You know, like, so what is it? I was still in burglary mode. You know, I was still like, we need to get this burglary wrapped up, get the stolen property, and then, you know, find out more information about what's going on with. With what he's talking about here.

[Anya Cain]

The investigators had White put his phone on airplane mode and slip it into a plastic evidence bag. White shared his passcode. Chief Deputy Steward even took a pen and wrote down the number on his palm.

[Lieutenant Adam Nicholson]

I'm just saying you're being awful truthful

[Stephen White]

with us, so I am. I don't want your truth to be. To be, you know, contradicted by.

[Kevin Greenlee]

By.

[Stephen White]

This woman is a fucking murderer. Okay? I know that. I have not gone to nobody and said anything, because I don't have no proof on it. This woman's a psychopath. And I'm telling you guys that right now. Harold Allen was her husband. She set a life insurance policy for him, went and married him. I don't know when she married him, because since I've left, I've been away from this woman straight. Came to my house one day and slapped me across the face and told me at 26 years old and told me if I ever talked to her daughter again that she was gonna kill me. I better watch. You better watch your foot. That I was right up there at the house, right how I was like, what the. So was there, she got in her little car and she dipped off and left.

[Lieutenant Adam Nicholson]

Was there any messages last night that were saying of where you were supposed to pick this guy up?

[Stephen White]

No.

[Lieutenant Adam Nicholson]

Maybe you can explain that more at the sheriff's apartment.

[Stephen White]

Because, I mean, I just.

[Lieutenant Adam Nicholson]

That's not making.

[Stephen White]

I'll just be honest. That's not making sense. If you have that, you haven't talked

[Lieutenant Adam Nicholson]

to anybody in two months, and then you know exactly where to drive and catch this guy just standing with a mask on.

[Stephen White]

I mean. I mean, I had called Ashley, and I told her, your mom wants me to go do this, and I don't reckon she knows anything about it. I can fucking call her back right now, but I don't reckon that she knows.

[Lieutenant Adam Nicholson]

Maybe the detectives might want you to do that. But right now, with me knowing, all I know is basically what you're telling me and a little bit of.

[Stephen White]

I mean, and I can give you a shit ton of information, but Marsha's not stupid.

[Lieutenant Adam Nicholson]

Here's what I do know, because she

[Stephen White]

done got away with that.

[Lieutenant Adam Nicholson]

So here's what I do know.

[Stephen White]

We need that stuff back, okay, from last night. And that's gonna.

[Lieutenant Adam Nicholson]

That's gonna help you more probably than anything.

[Anya Cain]

Then White dropped yet another bombshell.

[Lieutenant Adam Nicholson]

Are you sure that Ashley's not the one that messaged you to go do that?

[Stephen White]

I'm not.

[Lieutenant Adam Nicholson]

Because it. Because the information that we have or that we're getting could be a little bit conflicting on that part. Like Ashley. And if it is Ashley, just tell.

[Stephen White]

No, I'm not. I'm really not sure if it's actually your Marsha. That's the thing. They've been like this a whole life. But do you have the ad? The. Your phone, is it labeled as Ashley if she was to text you? No. So not at all.

[Lieutenant Adam Nicholson]

But the person that text said, this is Marcia.

[Stephen White]

Well, she called Me on my text now number. Signing a favor. I said, who is this? And I got a call from a text now number. This has been a couple of months ago, and then it was supposed to go down on this day. Yes.

[Anya Cain]

Before the murder investigation could begin, there were a few practical matters to take care of.

[Lieutenant Adam Nicholson]

First, I just want to make sure you understand. All right?

[Stephen White]

Yeah.

[Lieutenant Adam Nicholson]

You live upstairs, right at this place.

[Stephen White]

Currently.

[Lieutenant Adam Nicholson]

You have the right to require that

[Stephen White]

a search warrant be obtained before any

[Lieutenant Adam Nicholson]

search of your residence, vehicle or other premises. You have the right to refuse to consent to any such search. You have the right to consult with an attorney prior to giving consents to any such search. If you cannot afford an attorney, you have the right to have an attorney provided for you at no cost. Do you understand your rights there?

[Stephen White]

I do understand that.

[Lieutenant Adam Nicholson]

Okay.

[Stephen White]

Now, having those rights in mind and

[Lieutenant Adam Nicholson]

knowing that you live up here, you've told me that some of the stuff

[Stephen White]

from last night's up there. We can go get it.

[Lieutenant Adam Nicholson]

Can we go get it?

[Stephen White]

Yes, sir, but it's a lot.

[Lieutenant Adam Nicholson]

While we're here, can we search the car?

[Stephen White]

You're more than welcome to search my car.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Yeah, Chief Deputy steward rang the other detectives.

[Stephen White]

Hey, I'm gonna need one of you guys. We're gonna have most of it here, but one of you guys probably needs to head this way to just that way. We're not hands to hands to hands and photograph it and everything, because it's. I don't think it's. I'm not going to say too much right now, but it's not what it seems.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Lt. Nicholson wanted to push White a bit more. For instance, who was the other burglar? White again, claimed not to know.

[Stephen White]

I stopped, I picked him up, and then away you guys went. And away we went. He told me how to get there and he said no names. That was it. I kind of chuckled at one moment because I was nervous as fuck. Know if the man had a gun on him or not because he had like, layers. And I was like, dude, it's really not a good idea to be driving around right now with you having a mask on looking like that in my goddamn car, period. And this was early this morning. Yeah. He had brass knuckles. I know for a fact he had brass knuckles. Cuz the whole entire time I was driving, he sat there in that passenger seat and I'll see you. Come here. He had something. He's in all black. He had something bulging right here. Okay? He got his hand on it like this. That's why I don't know if there was a gun or not. They have brass knuckles. And he. There was a road off on the side of 250. He said, here's good enough. You can drop me off here. And he said he had someone come to pick him up and had the mask on the whole time.

[Lieutenant Adam Nicholson]

Did anybody here see you taking the 20 some guns from here to the upstairs stairs?

[Stephen White]

My husband did.

[Lieutenant Adam Nicholson]

So he knows about where the. The guns?

[Stephen White]

Yes.

[Lieutenant Adam Nicholson]

Okay. So he probably has a decent idea of why we're here.

[Stephen White]

He's terrified of Marcia as well. Cuz like I said, this woman threatened to kill me if I ever spoke to her daughter again. She threatened to kill him. Years ago, before I moved out of here, like, dude, whenever I moved out of here, I moved all the way to Florida and I changed my dressed. I didn't even live in Pensacola. I lived in Century and put that I lived way down in Pensacola by Fort Walton beach. So that she thought that I lived in Pensacola down by Fort Walton Beach. She. When I confronted Ashley about this, she called me and acted like she didn't know nothing about it. My mom's gone crazy. She's on all kinds of medications, but her husband did die on Christmas Eve and it was horrible. We didn't know what was wrong with him. We thought his medicine was. Was going nuts. But she kept saying she couldn't call 911. She couldn't call 91 1. And then he fell and she asked us to get him up. And we almost couldn't get him up because he was a really fat man apparently. I don't know this man. I don't know him at all. Everyone was drinking on Christmas Eve. The tree, the presents were set out for the kids. And Marshall went into the kitchen and made a root beer float with whipped cream and sprinkles on top of it. And she poured something out of a bottle into there. And she told Ashley that that was his little extra shot because he likes spiked root beer floats. That's what she told her daughter. And she gave it to him. He drank it. I guess her granddaughter went to take a drink and she like grabbed her, yanked her away and started screaming, you're supposed to be in bed. You need to go to bed. Drink a Pop Pops root beer float. You're supposed to be in bed. That's exactly what she did. And she don't cuss like that. Actually said. She said, you're supposed to be in bed. And she actually cussed too. That's what Ashley said to me. Ashley said, mom, you need to let go of my daughter. Don't grab her like that. Where she's four, five years old. We don't do that. You're not gonna talk to her, my daughter, that way. You're a little tipsy. You need to go lay down. She took her daughter, grabbed her by her hands, and. Come on, baby, let's go to bed. Nan Nan's being bitchy. You don't have to be a bitch. Nan Nan left, you know.

[Lieutenant Adam Nicholson]

Oh, my.

[Stephen White]

A little girl. Yeah, because she heard her mom say, nan Nan's being bitchy. You don't have to be a bitch. Nan Nan. You know, little kids. And she took the baby back to bed, and she came in and she looked at her mom and she said, what the hell, Mom? Ashley said it was horrible because, like, an hour and a half later, he started saying, oh, I'm tired. I'm drunk. I gotta go to bed. I don't feel right. But he only had that one drink, apparently, and, like, maybe two beers. He said, I've never felt that drunk before in my life. And he went. And this is just what I've been told, because I never knew the man. And apparently that was Christmas Eve. And she. Her daughter told me after that happened, they stayed patient and calm, but then she started talking shit about her girlfriend. Okay? And Ashley was afraid she was gonna kill her girlfriend, so she dipped out and took off to New Mexico. So everybody ran from her. She actually just now came back. Ashley came back to visit her mom with her daughter and visit her nanny and stuff, because she had birth certificate and stuff. And so Ashley knew what was going on. But Ashley said, if I can find, please get it. And I did. Because she's like, I don't want my mom having any of this information. She has all my birth certificates. She has all my stuff. If she would kill her own husband, what she. What would she do to me and her daughter? That's exactly what her daughter said to me. It was over the phone.

[Anya Cain]

He also fretted over what his mother would say about his impending legal troubles.

[Stephen White]

My mother's pissed. She's gonna disown me forever now. No, she won't. Yes, she will. Nah. Trust me. She told me years ago to not have anything to do with that person. And I didn't, and I wouldn't. You said your dad's running for mayor. Yeah. Austin. Yeah. So this is a fucking ugly situation. And this cannot. Please, this cannot go on. No media release, if that's a thing. I don't know if that's A thing for something like this. But if we can keep that. This. If we can keep this discreet as possible, I will cooperate in any means necessary. We appreciate it to ensure that. Can't promise anything at all.

[Kevin Greenlee]

But from there, the investigators went to talk to White's husband, Nate. Nate was a very soft spoken, very thin man who sat on a swing bench on the family's back patio. Beside him was a cat scratching post.

[Anya Cain]

He swung slightly as he revealed to investigators a few truths that his husband had declined to mention. The thing about White's car getting stolen, that was a lie. Oh, and Nate had a good idea of who the other burglar was. It definitely was not him.

[Stephen White]

He said he had to go do some stuff because Marsha, she's done lost her mind.

[Lieutenant Adam Nicholson]

She.

[Stephen White]

A couple years ago, everything was fine, and then she. She's almost. Her mom. Threatened to kill her daughter and her husband and everything if the truth ever came out. I don't know what that was about. And then I guess they out left and went up there to go get some of her stuff. Well, not actually hers, but her daughter's husband that actually passed away, they went up there to get some of his stuff. So

[Lieutenant Adam Nicholson]

is that somebody you're familiar with, though, that you've talked to before?

[Stephen White]

Yeah.

[Lieutenant Adam Nicholson]

Okay, so what's his name?

[Stephen White]

I think it's King Napier or something. King Napier.

[Lieutenant Adam Nicholson]

Okay. See, he lives right here with a

[Stephen White]

K. Yeah, I think he lives. I don't know where he lives. I think he lives close by. I don't know exactly where he lives.

[Lieutenant Adam Nicholson]

Okay, what's he drive?

[Stephen White]

I don't think he drives.

[Kevin Greenlee]

White's father shouted in the background. He was seemingly trying to be helpful to the investigators. Then the dogs rushed onto the patio before being shooed away.

[Stephen White]

Okay. Okay, thank you very much.

[Lieutenant Adam Nicholson]

So I appreciate you being honest with us, by the way. Okay. So did. Did he. Did he take him home before he knew we were coming, or did he take him home when he knew we were coming?

[Stephen White]

I think it was before he knew. And then, like, halfway sometime then he

[Lieutenant Adam Nicholson]

knew we were coming.

[Stephen White]

Then he said he was gonna mute everyone here.

[Lieutenant Adam Nicholson]

Okay. And that's whenever he told you or whoever to say that he was going to the urgent care.

[Stephen White]

Okay. How long you guys been married? Seven years now.

[Detective Clint Bertram]

Seven years.

[Anya Cain]

The arrest took place on that patio. Investigators had gone inside to finish talking to Nate. At that point, White was sitting at the black metal patio table with two white gourds on top of it. Coco and Binks. The dogs ran around jubilant. White smoked Another cigarette before he was handcuffed.

[Stephen White]

You've given us partial truth. We need the whole truth. And we already know that Kane was with you. So. So he was with you at Marsh's and helped you take the guns. Yeah, I was. Okay. Give me a drink. Drink. So the rest of the stuff about picking the guy up at the Valley o. That you told me not. That's not true. You knew who he was and.

[Lieutenant Adam Nicholson]

Right?

[Stephen White]

Yeah. He did have brass knuckles, though. That was all true. I didn't know who he was.

[Anya Cain]

The investigators revealed that they knew about Napier. Lt. Nicholson reminded White that it was a bad idea to lie to them. One way or another, they'd find out the truth.

[Stephen White]

Gotta put chains on your back. I kissed my husband.

[Anya Cain]

White kissed Nate handcuffed. White directed Nate to give him a drink of water. He also wanted to smoke his cigarette a few moments more. Nate dutifully complied, switching between holding up the bottle and the cigarette to his husband's lips. Investigators listened as, between those pauses, White threw some new information at them. Because after learning what Nate told them, White was ready to come clean to investigators. Yes, he had lied about Napier, but that was just because his friend was a father to a newborn. You felt bad about getting him into trouble. He also lied for another reason. To protect another friend. In yet another twist.

[Stephen White]

The reason I haven't told you is because Ashley's the one who set this up. Marsha and Ashley look just alike. Sound just alike. Dress just alike. They're the same kind of psychopath. Well, that's that information. Ashley was the one who said everything. But the reason why was because everything that I just said to you. Because this woman's murdered her husband. And if you go into her computer. Computer filed. I love you, Mom.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Lieutenant Nicholson and Chief Deputy Steward took White away. CSI Lucas and Sergeant Hutchinson came out to help with the search. They found some of the stolen guns stashed away.

[Anya Cain]

At that point, how are you guys on the law enforcement side? Trying to get to the bottom of parsing whether Steven White's statements are just sour grapes from a person who's trying to blame his burglary victim versus something more sinister and something more real?

[Lieutenant Adam Nicholson]

Well, I think that with him, that came still at his house because he started off with these, you know, wild accusations of, you know, Marsha told me to go rob the house, and, you know, I was supposed to meet this man named Richard, and which. None of that was true. You know, Marcia never told him to go rob her house, and he never met a man named Richard. But we found that out through Stephen's husband. He told us who the other participant in the burglary was. And then. So that was another moment that was just about, like, the moment of me showing him that screenshot where he was like, dang it, you know, like, they got me. And then. So then when I brought up the other participant's name, it was another one of those moments of, like, then it began, you know, okay, here's where the guns are. Yes, I went out there. Yes, here's where the other participant lives. I'll show you where he lives. We can get you guys, take you right to him. And then, oh, yeah, by the way, I put some. Some more bags out here in the country and on an old farm lane, you can. So things that he's saying started panning out. You know, they started check. They checked out. And it just seemed like it would be hard to dismiss what he was saying, you know, like everything else he told us was starting to come true once he started telling the truth.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Their simple burglary had turned out to be a little bit more complicated than anyone expected. But all they had was the word of a lying burglar.

[Anya Cain]

Let's now go back to September 20, 2023, a day later. Let us return to the Jackson County Sheriff's office. From the bright sunlight to the artificial lights of the interview room. Marsha did not know it sitting there, but Lieutenant Nicholson was nearby, watching the interview.

[Lieutenant Adam Nicholson]

Before Detective Burcham talked to her. I told him. I was like, it was just me and Clint. And me and Clint go way back. We were best friends all the way through grade school and middle school and high school. And so. And working together with him today is. You know, that's. That's. It's crazy, you know, just how small town this is, you know, but. So I'm telling him. We can't just dismiss what Stevens told us. I think we at least have to. At minimum, we have to at least ask her what happened to Harold, you know, like, just to get her reaction, see what she says.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Lieutenant Nicholson watched as Detective Bertram hit Marshall with the news about what White said about the burglary.

[Detective Clint Bertram]

And this is where it gets interesting. Okay, I'm gonna go ahead and make sure you understand this. Some of this is going to be accusatory towards you because this is what he said.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Okay?

[Detective Clint Bertram]

So you're not under arrest. You are free to leave anytime you want. But I just want to make sure you understand that he's accusing you of some stuff, too. So here's. Here's what he says, and I may have. It was a lot. So if I get some of it wrong. If I get some of it wrong, I apologize. Says that he received a call from textnow number and he says that it was back in. I think he said, like in May or June. So it'd been a couple months ago. And that basically it was a female on the other side. He thought it was. He said he thought it was you. But I think he may have said something to the fact that you and Ashley sound alike. So it could have been Ashley. And he said that. Said that you would give him $3,000 to go in the house and take the guns and have him take the guns and take them back to his place.

[Marsha Allen]

He's a liar. I did not do that.

[Detective Clint Bertram]

Okay.

[Marsha Allen]

I don't have his number. I don't have his cell phone number. I don't even know what a text now is. He's lying.

[Detective Clint Bertram]

Okay. All right. And let's see.

[Marsha Allen]

I would never do that. Those were my husband's and they were passed out.

[Lieutenant Adam Nicholson]

Like I said, I'm not accusing you.

[Marsha Allen]

No, it just makes you mad.

[Detective Clint Bertram]

I'm telling you what he's saying.

[Marsha Allen]

It doesn't surprise me.

[Detective Clint Bertram]

Then he also said something about. Something about burning down the house.

[Stephen White]

What?

[Detective Clint Bertram]

Burning down your house?

[Marsha Allen]

He better not.

[Detective Clint Bertram]

I don't know. If he was saying he was going to. I would have to go back because I recorded the whole interview.

[Marsha Allen]

Oh, wow.

[Detective Clint Bertram]

I have to go back to see exactly what he said because there was a lot that he said.

[Marsha Allen]

Well, he said he was going deflect and plead the fifth. And he's deflecting. That's what's in the videos.

[Detective Clint Bertram]

Yeah, that's what he said in the video.

[Marsha Allen]

Yeah.

[Stephen White]

Okay.

[Marsha Allen]

If something goes wrong, plead the fifth. There's no way on God's Greeners. I thought too hard to get my house in my name because it almost went to the state. There's no way. And plus, as my husband's for almost

[Kevin Greenlee]

25 years, his voice calm and even. Detective Burcham then let Marsha know about White's other claim, the one about what happened to Harold.

[Lieutenant Adam Nicholson]

And I'm in the next adjoining room watching on the screens to waiting for that moment. And he waited until, like, close to the end. I mean, he did a really good job.

[Anya Cain]

We agree with him. Detective Burcham was very smooth about it.

[Marsha Allen]

No.

[Stephen White]

Okay.

[Detective Clint Bertram]

And I'm sitting here trying to remember what all he said.

[Marsha Allen]

He said that.

[Detective Clint Bertram]

Well, okay, I'll tell you what else he said. He accused you of Murdering your husband.

[Marsha Allen]

I did not murder my husband.

[Detective Clint Bertram]

Okay. Something to the effect of some kind of.

[Stephen White]

I don't know, some kind of seeds

[Detective Clint Bertram]

or something, and basically poisoning. Poisoning his drink.

[Marsha Allen]

That would show me a toxicology report if that happened.

[Detective Clint Bertram]

And was there an autopsy done?

[Marsha Allen]

Yes, there was an autopsy. Autopsy and toxicology. He died because he had pericarditis. That was undetected.

[Detective Clint Bertram]

He had what?

[Marsha Allen]

Pericarditis. It's the inflammatory. The peri. Heart has pericardum around it, the lining of the heart that protects the heart when it beats. It went undetected, so it went along so long that the pericardium around the heart hardened, and it stopped his heart, and he had a little bit of blocked arteries. That's an autopsy report.

[Detective Clint Bertram]

Okay.

[Stephen White]

All right.

[Marsha Allen]

It's even on the death certificate, right? Yeah.

[Detective Clint Bertram]

And I'm. I'm just telling you what he said.

[Marsha Allen]

He's lying.

[Detective Clint Bertram]

Okay.

[Stephen White]

All right.

[Detective Clint Bertram]

Because there was a lot he said. A lot.

[Anya Cain]

The investigators at the Jackson County Sheriff's Office are good detectives. Good detectives do not care about anything other than the truth. They do not care about who is more overtly sympathetic, who is more outwardly sketchy. They care about the evidence and the story that the evidence tells. As far as they were concerned, there was only one real way to put White's claims about Marsha to the test.

[Kevin Greenlee]

And that required Detective Bertram to ask Marsha a very simple question.

[Lieutenant Adam Nicholson]

I didn't say anything to Clint about asking for her phone. And he thought of that on his own. You know, Clint come up with that all on his own. He was like, okay, you know, like you saying nothing happened to him. He died. Would you care if we had your phone? Would you consent to a download? And. And I was like, oh, my. You know, he's really. He's really going at it.

[Detective Clint Bertram]

Would you be willing to consent to download your cell phone?

[Marsha Allen]

Yeah.

[Stephen White]

Okay.

[Lieutenant Adam Nicholson]

And so, again, I'm thinking there's nothing on that phone. This guy's just trying to get out of a burglary, trying to give us some information.

[Kevin Greenlee]

And Detective Burcham needed to go get the extraction paperwork so that he could get started. He left Marsha alone in the interview room.

[Detective Clint Bertram]

Any questions for me?

[Marsha Allen]

No.

[Detective Clint Bertram]

All right, I'm gonna go get that paperwork real quick.

[Marsha Allen]

Okay.

[Anya Cain]

Well, she said that Marsha pulled out her phone. She tapped away at the screen. Lieutenant Nicholson and Detective Burcham didn't know what she was doing at the time. They probably thought it was innocuous. Maybe she was sending off a few quick texts, letting people know that her phone was going to be offline for a while, or checking her email one last time, or maybe staring at the pictures of the burglars again. But none of that was true. Marsha was not doing any of that. She was trying to delete all the evidence of the murder plot.

[Stephen White]

Foreign.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Thanks so much for listening to the Murder Sheet. If you have a tip concerning one of the cases we cover, please email [e-mail] if you have actionable information about an unsolved crime, please report it to the appropriate authorities.

[Anya Cain]

If you're interested in joining our Patreon, that's available at www.patreon.com murdersheet. If you want to tip us a bit of money for records requests, you can do so at www.buymeacoffee.com murdersheet. We very much appreciate any support.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Special thanks to Kevin Tyler Greenlee, who composed the music for the Murder Sheet and who you can find on the [e-mail] if you're looking to talk with

[Anya Cain]

other listeners about a case we've covered, you can join the Murder Sheet Discussion group on Facebook. We mostly focus our time on research and reporting, so we're not on social media much. We do try to check our email account, but we ask for patience as we often receive a lot of messages. Thanks again for listening.