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- [00:01]
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- [00:21]
Anya Cain
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- [01:21]
Anya Cain
I'm Anya and today we're going to be talking about a sexual abuse scandal involving a family made famous by reality television. This episode contains discussion of the sexual abuse of children. Okay, so this is a case that's been pretty blowing up recently and given some of our topic topical coverage of sexual abuse cases involving children, which are just, in my personal opinion, some of the most egregious and disturbing cases to cover. We wanted to kind of do a primer on this and see if perhaps we could monitor it a little bit going forward. I think cases like this are again horrific, but they could offer the public an opportunity to see how commonplace and how damaging and how horrific these kinds of cases where you have adults sexually abusing children are and therefore kind of give it an opportunity to raise awareness around this. Because whatever any of us kind of suspects about the prevalence of child predators, men and women who are going around trying to prey upon children, I think the reality is probably significantly worse than any of us could conceive of. And this is a high profile case just because of the nature of the people involved. But I really think that this stuff is something that we all have to be really on guard for. My name is Anya Cain. I'm a journalist.
- [02:56]
Kevin Greenlee
And I'm Kevin Greenlee. I'm an attorney.
- [02:58]
Anya Cain
And this is the Murder Sheet.
- [03:00]
Kevin Greenlee
We're a true crime podcast focused on original reporting, interviews, and deep dives into murder cases. We're the Murder Sheet, and this is
- [03:08]
Anya Cain
the case of Joseph Duggar. It. So I guess to start off with, let's maybe talk a bit about the context and the background of who's involved in this case, why it has gotten so much media attention. And I think, Kevin, I'm gonna have to guide you through this because I actually am a little bit familiar with this topic long before I became a true crime podcaster, whereas you're far classier than I am and do not. I don't think you've ever really partook in much reality television, maybe with the exception of some Survivor, and that season we watched the Traitors.
- [04:27]
Kevin Greenlee
Yes, I've. I have very limited exposure to reality television, I'm sure to my classy.
- [04:33]
Anya Cain
He's a classy gentleman, folks. That's why we love him.
- [04:35]
Kevin Greenlee
And I'm sure it's to my detriment.
- [04:37]
Anya Cain
No, it's Kevin. It's certainly not. And, you know, not at all. So I grew up watching 19 Kids and Counting and then counting on, you know, I.
- [04:49]
Kevin Greenlee
What are those shows? And what were. What was the appeal of those shows to you?
- [04:52]
Anya Cain
Well, I mean, I think it's, you know, these were two TLC reality shows. And I can kind of get into the genesis of how it went from 19 kids and counting to counting on, because that actually plays into what we're talking about here. But these are shows that followed an Arkansas family called the Duggars. And it was. The family was led by Jim Bob Duggar and Michelle Duggar. These are the parents. And the whole premise was they have a lot of kids, and they don't just have a lot of kids on accident. They. Their religious beliefs prompted them to have, you know, they believe as many children as God commands them to. So no birth control, nothing like that. And they ultimately had 19 children, which is, you know, a pretty extraordinary number. So the. The folks at TLC basically got wind of this and built out a whole show around them. And, you know, a lot of these shows tend to be sort of like, oh, wow, look at these people in an unusual lifestyle. You know, they're not so different from us like that. It's kind of, some might say, I mean, when I was like a teenager watching it, I. I don't know if I picked up on any of that, but one could say that they kind of whitewashed some of it, right? And some of that is coming out, come out in years since. But it sort of puts a pretty positive gloss on them as a family, you know, makes them seem normal, you know, like, makes it seem like, you know, they all get along and all this stuff. I think for me, you know, all of these reality TV shows, like, there's an element of, like, the unfamiliar. It's like, whoa, what would it be like to be in a family that's that huge? And then there's an element of, you know, the familiar, where it's like, oh, well, they seem nice, you know, and these shows, you just kind of end up like, just, it's almost like potato chips. You just eat one after another and you're kind of mindlessly consuming. I think a lot of reality TV tends to be like this, but this is like one of those shows that I would watch. You know, my mom and I would watch it or whatever, and we'd, you know, like, you could be a bit critical. You're like, well, that seems a bit patriarchal, but you're still kind of watching it out of curiosity. I think this is kind of for a long time, and maybe even to this day, I don't really watch reality television anymore with it. One exception of the traitors that we got into for a little bit. But I kind of feel like that is kind of a model for some of those shows where it's just kind of like you kind of just end up getting sucked into it. And next thing you know, you've watched like 10 episodes. So that was 19 kids and counting. And again, like, part of the image that they were portraying out to the media was this really squeaky clean image. And, you know, you kind of got the sense that they were very, very devout Christians, very into kind of like, you know, raising their kids to be, you know, respectful and all this stuff. Nothing, you know, that on the surface, when you're kind of a naive teenager watching it, nothing that's like, oh, my gosh, this is awful. They made a very big deal about modesty. I think that was the thing that maybe struck me as a bit kind of, you know, because it's like, why,
- [08:04]
Kevin Greenlee
why did that strike you?
- [08:05]
Anya Cain
I, I, I, I support the rights of everyone to be modest and not modest as you like. But I think, you know, as a teenager, you're kind of like, okay, like, there can be sometimes, you know, gendered standards for that, frankly. And, you know, there's expectations for women to be modest and manage men's emotions. And I don't, I don't feel like that's fair. You know, what did Jesus say about that? You know, if a man's looking at somebody the wrong way, they should cut out his eyes. You know, it's like, it's, it's, it puts pressure on young girls from a young age to, you know, manage men's sexual feelings. And I feel like that's wrong.
- [08:49]
Kevin Greenlee
So when you talk about modesty, you're, you're, are you saying that they, they took the attitude that if a woman dresses in a way that a man looks at her and a man feels sexual desire, then it's somehow the woman's fault?
- [09:03]
Anya Cain
I don't think that was ever said like that on the program whatsoever. I'm more saying that for me, when people are suddenly emphasizing the modesty angle, I think things can very easily devolve into that.
- [09:16]
Kevin Greenlee
Understood?
- [09:16]
Anya Cain
Not always. Certainly not. And that's why I say I support everyone's right to be as modest or as immodest as you want, you know, within. Within reason. Right. I think people should do what they want. And if you want to be modest, great. But when, when you have a culture that's emphasizing, you know, women being modest and not men, it's sort of like, hmm, let's, you know, that's interesting. It's noted, right? You've noted it, you know, and, and I just, you know, it's like, I think a lot of this is, you know, controlling women's behavior, frankly. But again, that's neither here nor there. Also, people have different beliefs, and if they're sincere in those beliefs, I support their right to believe whatever they want. But I'm just saying, like, when I was watching this years ago, like, these are some of the things that, you know, I was thinking of, but I wasn't really looking at anything particularly critically. So this all kind of this, this show, 19 kids and counting. It featured a young man named Joseph Duggar. Today he is 31 years old. He was born January 20, 1995, and he was the seventh oldest of the 19 children in the TLC series Jim, Bob and Michelle, of course, his parents. And today he. The Arkansas Real Estate Commission roster lists him as being a realtor with Good Neighbor Realty in Taneytown, Arkansas, with his younger brother James. And that. That license is current. And so this 19 kids and counting, he's, he's one of the kids. He's part of this. In, in the meantime, you know, throughout all this, I was kind of doing some background. One Interesting aspect is that Jim Bob Duggar, also a Realtor, kind of has kind of made a business of owning different commercial properties. He's sort of the quote, unquote, patriarch of this household. And he served in the Arkansas House of representatives for District 6, which is Northern Washington county, where Taneytown is. That was from 1999 to 2003. Didn't seek reelection. In 2002, he actually tried to beat the incumbent Republican Senator Tim Hutchinson in the primaries. Did not succeed. But one interesting note is that in 2002, Joseph is actually pictured in the newspaper, the Log Cabin Democrat with his brother Josiah. They're wearing suits and singing a song about taxes for people at his father's rally. And then the. I mean, interestingly enough, Jim Bob Duggar's political aspirations didn't die there. In 2006, he kind of sought the District 35 nomination for the Arkansas State Senate. Lost 2021. He went out for the State senate again for the seventh District, again lost. Finished three out of four Republicans. But all that is to say that yes, they certainly are known for the reality television series, but Jim Bob Duggar has often had these political aspirations too. So you could say, okay, big family, probably a decent amount of money from all of the appearances on television and all of this media attention and these kind of, you know, attempts to use that to, to wield some political power. But in terms of their beliefs, we talked a little bit about the modesty. We talked about that Jim Bob Duggar and Michelle Duggar were, you know, this. A lot of the information from this comes from a four part docu series called Shiny Happy People, Duggar Family Secrets, which came out in 2023 that got into the Duggars involvement in a group called the Institute for Basic Life Principles. This is a very conservative organization. It kind of emphasizes the fundamental Christianity. It emphasizes homeschooling, highly patriarchal. You know, the man is the head of the household and making a lot of the decisions. And one thing that's often reported is that they're a part of the Quiverful movement. This is a group that encourages very large families. That's not, I don't think that's official. I don't think they're officially a part of that. But a lot of their values and certainly their lifestyle has aligned with that movement. And I think they are technically called Independent Baptists. So they kind of adhere to a very fundamentalist, very conservative side of Christianity, of, you know, Protestant Baptist Christianity, not, not your mainstream Baptists. You know, there's I think, a pretty decent gulf between those things. So all of that is, you know, interesting, but it doesn't really have anything to do with crimes. But actually, unfortunately, that would come to light later. So we're going to go into the first Duggar sexual abuse scandal now and then we're going to take it back to what's happening today because there are some echoes, there are some patterns here that I think is part of what is making people really look at this and say, what is going on here? Right. So in 2006, producers of the Oprah Winfrey show, where this family appeared, told authorities that they had heard allegations, sexual allegations against Josh Duggar. Josh Duggar, I mentioned Joseph is the seventh child. Josh Duggar is the oldest child. He was the firstborn of family. And you know, so, so these producers here, he might be doing something. They go to the police. That then prompts Jim Bob Duggar to go to the Arkansas State Police and tell them straight up that Josh had molested five underage girls, including several family members in the early 2000s. I think around 2002 and maybe before that, those crimes would have been committed when he was 14 and 15. Enough with overcomplicating your wardrobe. Stop buying trendy, cheap stuff that doesn't last. Curate your style with high quality pieces that you can mix and match. Our wonderful sponsor Quince can help you out with that.
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Anya Cain
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Anya Cain
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Anya Cain
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- [18:45]
Anya Cain
Alexa add to cart. He would, I'm just going to go into what he was, you know, what he was that was doing. But he would go in while they were asleep in bed sometimes when they were awake and he would touch their breasts and genitals and instead of reporting that to the police, instead of anything else, his parents essentially sent him send him away to like a seemingly a camp to Deal with that.
- [19:12]
Kevin Greenlee
Which camp? What do you mean?
- [19:15]
Anya Cain
Like, it's like a religious thing, so not, you know. Yeah. Anyways, so they also had an acquaintance named Jim Hutchins, who is an Arkansas state trooper, give him a talking to. And this might strike some of you as, you know, obviously, I would imagine it would be extremely. I'm just trying to be empathetic here. It would be extremely difficult for any family to hear that their child is a sexual abuser, is abusing other people sexually. I do feel, though, it is a parent's responsibility to deal with that situation, to protect other children, including children in the household, including their own children, and to kind of send someone to a, you know, a camp and give them a stir in talking to. I don't think that's enough. I think you have to. I think there has to be more stringent action taking. Even Even though he's 14 and 15, I think that needs to be dealt with very swiftly and very severely, because you are. If that is not in any situation, regardless of what's going on, and if that's not dealt with, if sexual abuse by a sibling is not dealt with very quickly and swiftly and severely, I fear that that leads to worse outcomes for the victim, certainly, which would be my primary concern, frankly, and also potentially lack of accountability for the perpetrator. That's a child that needs some significant help if they're doing that to their siblings. So nothing happens. And by the time 2006 rolls around, there's nothing the Arkansas State Police seemingly can do. And the reason is statute of limitations. The statute of limitations had passed. Kevin, can you, as a lawyer, just talk about what. What is the statute? Why would. Why would it matter how much time has passed? Why do statute of limitations even exist?
- [21:08]
Kevin Greenlee
Basically, a statute of limitations is something that is set up to say you don't want people to have to spend the rest of their lives worrying that they might be charged with a particular offense. Variety of reasons for that, but that is the thinking. Perhaps it'd be very difficult to come up with a defense years and years down the road. So. And also, perhaps you don't want prosecutors to be able to go against their enemies and say, oh, this person did something 30 years ago. I want to charge them for that now. And so what you do is you set up a system where you basically say, if you want to charge a person with this crime, you have to do it within so many years of the. The original incident. And there are some crimes that are regarded as so serious, there is no statute of limitations like murder, but most of them do have statute of limitations.
- [22:15]
Anya Cain
I personally feel that. And I understand that there may be counter arguments to this and I'm open to that, but I personally do not feel like there should be a. Because this, it sounds like, you know, if he's accused of doing this in 2002 and statute of limitations is already up by 2006, that's ridiculous.
- [22:34]
Kevin Greenlee
That's a pretty short statute of limitations.
- [22:37]
Anya Cain
Sexual abuse for sexual abuse of children.
- [22:40]
Kevin Greenlee
Yeah, sexual abuse of children who may not even have come forward immediately. Yeah, that's.
- [22:46]
Anya Cain
That's way. Okay. Yeah, like we're agree. Like that's way too. I don't want a rogue prosecutor to be able to, you know, go back and cherry rig something from 30 years ago either I think in some cases, like with property crimes or you know, even, even you things around that. I support a statute of limitations that makes sense for society, that makes sense to protect anyone from wrongful prosecution when it comes to sexual crimes. When we know based on more research now and based on more understanding of how these crimes work, that it can take some time for a victim to process what happened and to get out potentially of a family situation. And I think that should. Because here's the thing, you still need evidence to prosecute somebody. You know, it's like, it's not like, it's just like, you know, I mean, you still have to build a case, but to take that off the table, especially within such a short time frame, I just think that's wrong. You know, but now I could be wrong. Yeah, I don't know. I don't know. I personally don't know if Arkansas has changed the law on the statute of limitations. I don't want to get it wrong. And see, either way, I think at least relatively recently in 2002-2004, they actually had like a two year revival window where it was like everyone who's, you know, saying that they've been through childhood sexual abuse, they can kind of, kind of come forward on, on for civil action. So, you know, like, I think there's been attempts to kind of correct that. Obviously at the time 2006, I think some of this stuff was less understood. That doesn't excuse it though. I just think that's ridiculous. But anyways, so this comes out. He's not charged because the statute of limitations and you know, he, Josh Duggar himself, you know, like, well, actually, let's go. So at that point though, when that scandal broke, it didn't break until 2015, 19 Kids and Counting was canceled by TLC. So they, the. The show's over. But then, you know, TLC certainly wants to continue to make money off of this situation. So they then pivot to Counting on which. Which is a spinoff which was supposed to be about the oldest daughters in the family and their new families, their new, like, husbands and children and whatever. So they, they kind of think, well, we're removing, you know, the family of origin somewhat, but we're gonna go with them. I think, you know, at the time people were kind of like, well, you know, the, the older girls shouldn't be victimized by what their brother did, but it's all still going to that family. It's all still kind of playing into this dynamic which has already been exposed as, you know, really disturbing. So it, yeah, so they go with that. And then Josh Duggar kind of is, is kind of laying low. I think at one point he was kind of being an anti gay activist, you know, and, and running around and doing that. But he's. I think after that scandal broke, it's kind of. He's quiet. Then April 29, 2021, he was arrested by United States Marshal Service on charges of receiving and possessing child sexual abuse materials. So obviously a very serious crime. And on December 9, 2021, he's convicted on all charges and sentenced to 12 years on in prison on May 25, 2022. So after his arrest, Counting on was also canceled. So that was sort of the end of that. In a very bizarre twist, Arkansas State Trooper Jim Hutchins in 2012 pled no contest to 10 counts of possessing child sexual abuse materials. And he had also been convicted of something similar in 2005. So he was sentenced to 56 years for this parole violation. And he also disputes the Duggar account. He says that they were trying to cover things up. So I don't know, either way, it's horrible and messed up. So that is all the context by which this Joseph Duggar thing is happening. So we have a Duggar son, one of the older sons, the oldest son go to prison for pretty significant and disturbing crimes involving child sexual abuse materials, possessing materials of minors, being sexually abused. Horrifying, especially in lieu of what he did to his sisters and another young woman, another girl, another child. So there's. So obviously this is like a huge deal and horrible. And he goes to prison for a long time. But, you know, after that, you know, counting is on is over. And I think people were just kind of like, okay, well, that, that happened. That's horrible. The Shiny Happy People documentary came out and people were like, yeah, it seems like this would be a. A situation that might be ripe for people being abused and not saying anything. Because when you're in a very kind of command control environment in your own family, there might be kind of. You might be disincentivized to complain about something like this happened to you, unfortunately. And you might, even if your parents don't intend for this to happen, you might internalize this idea if you're a, A young girl, that it's your fault.
- [28:21]
Kevin Greenlee
Right?
- [28:21]
Anya Cain
Which it never is. But that's what these, these folks. And that's why when I say my comments about modesty, I'm not really talking about people making a choice to be modest. It's more of, like, when modesty and the burden of everything, the burden of managing men's sexual feelings are put exclusively on young women and especially young girls. You can get an environment where then you have young girls thinking, well, I must have done something to provoke this, and explaining away what their victimizer did to them. So it's not about adults making that choice. It's about, like, the lessons young girls internalize or young boys even. I mean, boys are certainly also victims of sexual abuse. And I can imagine, you know, there. There'd be circumstances where they wouldn't want to come forward because of the shame or whatever. The shame is put on the victim rather than the person who is the abuser. And that's, that's. Anything that's doing that is a. Is a real problem. You know, we, I mean, we saw this with the Catholic sexual abuse scandal where you have, you know, victims silenced and priests who are abusing kids being shuffled around and put in new locations to abuse more kids. So, you know, you can have, unfortunately, and again, I say I'm a Catholic, you. You can have, unfortunately, situations where religions, religious organizations are potentially, or even practitioners are perpetuating more abuse by not handling it in an appropriate and aggressive way when it first comes up. I'm of the belief that unfortunately, I just think there are certain people out there who are going to abuse people. They might abuse other adults, they might abuse children, and maybe something happened to them or they're just wired in a certain way or whatnot, or who knows what's going on, but they're gonna be there. It's up to families and individuals and institutions to handle it properly, provide support, caring, compassion, and, you know, resources for the victims, make them know that it's not their fault that this happened and react aggressively towards the Abusers. That's what needs to happen. And unfortunately, it seems like sometimes that just does not happen. So anyways, Joseph Duggar, as I mentioned, 31 years old, seventh of the 19 kids. He married a woman named Kendra Duggar. They married in 2017. She was 19. He was 23. They. Kendra was the eldest of nine kids. Her parents are Paul Caldwell and Christina Caldwell. And she and Joseph had four children together, two boys and two girls. And, you know, they, they were both kind of figures on these shows. You kind of saw them. You know, I remember watching the arc where like they got marri. I'm all of that. It's just. It's just so bizarre to see this. And now they're at the center of yet another sexual abuse scandal within the Duggar family. So Wednesday, March 18, 2026, Joseph was arrested. He was charged with lewd and liv
- [31:29]
Kevin Greenlee
lascivious.
- [31:30]
Anya Cain
I thank you. You just saved my life. Right now, I don't. I can't read.
- [31:34]
Kevin Greenlee
That's what I'm here for. I'm.
- [31:36]
Anya Cain
I just feel so dumb. So. Behavior involving sexual activity with a minor. The victim is said to be 14 years old today, but she was 9 when this horrible thing happened to her. This horrible thing was done to her. And the. So this is, this is interesting. So this actually involves two states. So the Duggars are from Arkansas. They live in Arkansas, but this incident occurred in Bay County, Florida. So this is the statement posted by the Bay County Sheriff's Office. Okay. Quote, the Bay County Sheriff's Office has arrested and charged 31 year old Joseph Garrett Duggar for lewd and lascivious behavior involving unlawful sexual activity with a minor. On March 18, 2026, Bay county investigators were contacted by a detective with Tawnytown Police Department regarding a report of past sexual abuse. The 14 year old victim participated in a forensic interview where she disclosed several incidents involving Duggar that occurred during a family vacation in Panama City beach when she was nine years old. According to the investigation, the incidents took place in 2020 while the family was staying at a residence on Danny Drive. The victim reported Duggar repeatedly asked her to sit on his lap as the vacation continued. He also asked her to sit next to him on a couch and covered them with a blanket. During this time, Duggar manipulated the victim's underwear and grazed her genitals. Duggar would also continue to rub his hands on her thighs. The victim stated Duggar eventually apologized for his actions and the incidents stopped. After the apology, investigators discovered the victim's father confronted Duggar about these incidents. On March 17, 2026, Duggar admitted his actions to the victim's father and to Tawnytown detectives. Duggar was arrested out of state and charged with lewd and lascivious behavior, molestation of a victim less than 12 years old, and lewd and lascivious behavior conducted by a person 18 years or older. Duggar is currently awaiting extradition to Bay County. End quote. So this is horrifying, obviously. And what we're seeing is that this is a young victim who seemingly, if I'm reading in between the lines of this document, maybe took a long time to tell her family about what happened. And that when she did, the family confronted him and also got her in contact with Taneytown detectives who did this forensic interview. And the ball got started rolling pretty quickly after that. What do you think about any of this? Yeah, that.
- [34:07]
Kevin Greenlee
That's certainly what the. The inference I get from reading between the lines there could be wrong, but. Yeah, it could be wrong, certainly. As you indicated, we have some experience covering cases like this. And in my experience, when police get reports of sexual abuse of children, it's something they take very seriously and they act on it very, very quickly. And that certainly seems to be the case here.
- [34:37]
Anya Cain
I think that wasn't always the case, to be honest. Like, when you look at certain cases involving, you know, for instance, like, killers who went on to molest and kill children, you often see a bunch of things in their background where they're getting slaps on the wrist or like nobody's handling the situation correctly. I think police organizations and investigators have become a lot more sophisticated and proactive in dealing with this.
- [35:00]
Kevin Greenlee
I think all of us have. I think all of us have a much better understanding of these crimes than we may have 20, 25 years ago.
- [35:09]
Anya Cain
I agree. And I think that's a great thing. And I commend the family for, you know, if this is what happened, I commend the family for dealing with it very quickly and getting her in contact with police rather than going through some kind of bizarre behind the scenes route that would not have been appropriate for dealing with something as serious as this.
- [35:27]
Kevin Greenlee
Yeah, And I want to make the obvious point. This is not a pleasant subject. It's not a pleasant thing to be familiar with. But I think the fact that we have all become more familiar with it, I think this protects kids.
- [35:43]
Anya Cain
I agree. I think you have to be extremely proactive and extremely aggressive with this stuff. And I. And I'm. I'm heartened because I see people within True crime. I see people just within society in general. I think we're, I think society, parents in particular have really are grasping the extent of this problem and how much they need to be on guard for who they were letting around their children. Unfortunately though, predators sneak through the cracks. That's just the nature of the predator. And even, you know, you could be as diligent as possible, something might happen and then it's about the response and supporting your child and being there for your child and helping secure justice for your child. It's just, it's a horrify. I mean, I feel so bad for this family. I'm gonna say one thing before I get into this next section. Our curiosity about the details of what happened in this incident does not outweigh this underaged victims. Right. In my opinion to privacy and protection and healing and dignity. So I'm going to, I did a whole social media deep dive, Kevin. You saw me, I was going nuts on some of the, I was going to, on Instagram. I'm gonna, having done that and then thinking about how to frame this editorial in a responsible and ethical manner, I'm probably not gonna get that much into it because I don't wanna do or say anything that could out somebody who might be the victim or might be a victim. I don't know who the victim is and I, I don't want to know. I don't, I. This is a child. This is a child who's been some through something horrifying and now is having that horror essentially spill across all the headlines. Right. I mean this is a national story. So I think I'm just going to be very prudent about what I talk about.
- [37:41]
Kevin Greenlee
Yeah, I think that makes a lot of sense because not only do you want to protect the privacy of the, the victim in this case, you also don't want to be in a situation where you're saying, oh, I think the victim is like one of these handful of children.
- [37:55]
Anya Cain
Yes, exactly.
- [37:56]
Kevin Greenlee
We, we want to protect the privacy of, of, of children. That, that's of paramount importance.
- [38:02]
Anya Cain
And I'll just also add to this that like, you know, I, I commend Internet spaces where people are shutting down speculation about the victim. I think I, I like I looked on there's a Reddit called Duggar Snark where they're, you know, they're snarking on the Duggars and I've seen the moderators there again and again shut down any speculation about who this underage child was. I think that is exactly the kind of attitude that we all should have on this. And I, I commend them for that because, you know, I know in true crime, the instinct is more information, more information, more information. And I get that. I mean, I have that too. Right. Like, that's why we're doing this. But in this case, it's just not the right thing to do. It's not, it's, it's. The wrongness of it is not outweighed. You know, the public doesn't need to know that information. And we, sometimes we have to step aside and say, hey, putting anything like that out there, speculating about it just is wrong and we just have to not do it. And that's it. So what I did see on social media, though, I think might provide some interesting commentary or what, you know, things of interest for the Duggars, their relationship, the development of that. Um, so I think it seems to be that Kendra Duggar was the one predominantly operating this account just based on, like, the pronouns used. And she's talking about my sister, but she's also talking about, you know, my husband Joseph. So I think it's face to assume that she was behind the little Duggar family. Instagram. They joined Instagram on February 28, 2020, 2019, with a picture of their first baby, who was a son. I'm not going to name any of the children in this case. Obviously, you know, we know that the victim in this was not their own child because. Yeah, so, so that's, that's the first post. And then the 20. September 8, 2019. She wishes a happy second anniversary to her husband Joseph. Quote. The more I get to know you, I fall in love with you in a deeper way. You are such a wonderful spiritual encourager, always pushing me towards Christ. I love how patient and loving you are. Your servant's heart shines with when you are cleaning up after me when I'm sick in pregnancy and being right by my side through every contraction when I was in labor. You're such a fun dad. And I'm looking forward to what the Lord has in store in the years ahead. I love you so much. End quote. Then this is where I think the next significant series of posts happened. Because, you know, I think in 2020, there seems to be some kind of visit. And in some of those pictures, Joseph is wearing a gray shirt that says Panama City Beach, Florida. And that's all I'll say about that. But then shortly after, about a little bit over a week later, they announced that their third. That Kendra is pregnant with their third child. So she would have been pregnant during this trip where he potentially abused a child. Then in, you know, the following month, she again wishes him a happy anniversary. Quote, I love doing life by your side. There are so many things that I admire about you. But one thing that has never been really been apparent is how truly selfless you are. In the season of life that we are in where morning all day sickness has changed the way we do things. You have definitely picked up doing so much around the house as well as taking care of the kids. I'm feeling so blessed to call you my husband. I love you to the moon and back. Your girl. End quote. So we're sort of seeing this context of, you know, his wife is pregnant and dealing with some pretty significant morning sickness. And then he's accused of doing this in the background of while that all that's going on. And then November 3, 2021 was actually the last post. Kind of all ends abruptly with that. People have speculated that, that that's connected to what he's accused of. I don't really put that much weight on that without seeing further evidence, to be honest. Maybe information will come out that will bear that out. But sometimes people just quit Instagram. So I, you know, it's it like if we don't know either way, I'm probably not going to assume it's connected, if that makes sense. So all that happens then the developments after Joseph Duggar is arrested. He actually made a phone call that was obtained by 5News and it's very brief at least as far as what they released. People have speculated. Oh no, this is a phone call with an attorney. It's going to mess up the case. I, I don't know who it is with. I've seen it also speculated that it's with a bondsman. It's hard to say. Well, I'll just read it and Kevin, you can weigh in.
- [43:00]
Kevin Greenlee
Did they mention how they obtained this?
- [43:03]
Anya Cain
No, they just said we got it. I assume through public records. I mean, I don't know. So quote, this is what Joseph Duggar says. Hi there. Actually, why don't you. Kevin, why don't you read the other guy part. Okay. And I'll be okay. So, quote, hi there, this is Joe Duggar here. Hey. Hey. We're. I'm over here at the Washington County. Kind of don't know if my dad mentioned it to you or not. I didn't know if we needed to talk some sometime about things or how the process works here on this side or if you know anything.
- [43:38]
Kevin Greenlee
Yeah, the only issue. Well, well, you're, you're there, you're in custody pending the issue of a governor's warrant by the state of Florida and that's it.
- [43:50]
Anya Cain
So I mean, why would it be bad if that was his defense attorney?
- [43:57]
Kevin Greenlee
Well, obviously we have a pretty important principle in this country that you should have the right to consult with your attorney in private. You want to be able to tell your attorney absolutely everything so that your attorney can best formulate a defense for you. And if you have to have a concern, oh, that if I tell my attorney this, that, who knows, might look a little bit bad for me. Maybe, maybe it does, maybe it doesn't, but somebody might be listening in and might use it against me. Well then maybe you're not going to tell your attorney everything and maybe that ends up hurting your defense. So it's very important that we have this principle that the attorney client relationship is so sacred and so secret and it would be upsetting if this was a communication with an attorney, but I see no reason to believe that it was.
- [45:02]
Anya Cain
So I guess for everyone thinking, well, if you're a scumbag murderer or child molester or kill, you know, whatever, who is awful, why do we, why should we care if your rights are violated?
- [45:20]
Kevin Greenlee
What you're asking me?
- [45:21]
Anya Cain
Yeah.
- [45:22]
Kevin Greenlee
Well, the reason is, is we have, in this country, we have one bill of rights. We don't have a bunch of bill of rights saying oh you, you only get these rights if you commit good crimes. We have a bill of rights that apply to everybody. And so if you diminish the rights of a person accused of a heinous crime because you find what they've been accused of to be so heinous, that means, number one, that everybody's rights are going to be abridged in that way. And furthermore, it's worth noting, it is fair to say that in this country from time to time people get accused of heinous crimes of which they are completely innocent. And if you start taking away defendants rights when they're accused of heinous crimes, you're going to end up with a lot more wrongful convictions which serves no one's interests.
- [46:23]
Anya Cain
Yes, I just wanted to, I just wanted to establish that because I think sometimes I see people see heinous crimes and they start saying, well, like I don't care about anything around having a fair trial or whatever. And it's like, I think that's emotion that is grounded in some anger. And that anger may be understandable and righteous even, but we just have to be careful because everyone deserves a fair trial. Everyone deserves their rights not to be violated. It's not like a, like we're all categorized by good and bad people and the bad people can have their rights violated. And that's cool. So it, it, it all should be fair. That being said, I don't see any reason to necessarily believe, based on what's said, that this is definitely his attorney. I, I think the theory that it could be a bondsman may be accurate. I don't know why it's such a short clip. I don't know the details of any of this, but I think when people are kind of freaking out about it, it's like, let's just wait to have more information, you know, like, let's just kind of, you know, not everything. I mean, like, not everything. Like, we ha. We don't have to go like, live on TikTok with everything and be like, oh, my God, is, you know, like the case is falling apart. We just don't know. I mean, let's just find out. I think it would be a really, really insane and rookie error for the sheriff's office in Washington county to just like, randomly release like a lawyer call or even have a recording of that, frankly. So I don't. That seems unlikely. If that is the case, then I'm sure it will be adjudicated extensively.
- [47:49]
Kevin Greenlee
Yes.
- [47:52]
Anya Cain
But here's the thing. This isn't the end of it because. Yeah, so. So Duggar. Yeah, he makes this call. He apparently on Friday, March 20, waived his right to an extradition hearing in Arkansas, which is now clears his way for transfer to Florida. He's as of. I'm recording this on March 23rd. It may have changed, but my understanding from media reports is that he is held without bail at Washington County Detention center in Fayetteville, Arkansas, but will be extradited to Florida at some point in terms of extradition, Kevin, why can't they just like, you know, go after him in Arkansas? Why does he even have to go to Florida?
- [48:30]
Kevin Greenlee
Well, the crime, the alleged crime was committed in Florida, so it makes sense for it to be tried there.
- [48:37]
Anya Cain
Okay. There's also a video that's come out of the Washington County Detention center showing his. Him going through, I guess, getting booked into custody. He's handcuffed in the beginning. He's searched and patted down. The deputy asked him if he's ever been to the detention center, and he says, not on this side. And also refers to his brother doing hard time, his older brother Josh. And they, you know, kind of search him and make sure. He's not smuggling in any contraband, and he has to kind of grease up his finger in order to get his wedding band off. So, speaking of his wedding band, speaking of Kendra, this is where things also get kind of, you know, even more bizarre. So after this whole thing, she was actually arrested on child endangerment charges. So to be very clear, this is where she. She's not being charged with the abusing. Sexually abusing the child in Florida. This is almost something that like. Like happened afterwards. Does that make sense?
- [50:04]
Kevin Greenlee
Yes.
- [50:05]
Anya Cain
So I'll just read the release put out there by the Taneytown, Arkansas Police Department on March 20, 2026. This is what it says. The Taneytown Police Department is providing an update regarding the incident reported to our agency on March 18, 2026. As a result of the continuing investigation, additional charges have been filed in this case against Joseph Duggar, age 31, and Kendra Duggar, age 27. Arrest warrants have been issued and served for the following misdemeanor offenses through district court. Four counts of endangering the welfare of a minor, second degree. Four counts of false imprisonment, second degree. This remains an active and ongoing investigation. Arkansas law strictly limits the information that may be released in cases involving minors and other sensitive circumstances to protect the integrity of the investigation and the privacy of those involved. No further details will be provided at this time. Taneytown Police Department remains committed to conducting a thorough, professional investigation. Additional information will be released as permitted by law and as the investigation allows. Okay, so now we are seeing charges against Kendra as well as Joseph. So these are misdemeanor offenses. They will not be handled by Washington County, Arkansas. My understanding is that it would be handled within the city of Taneytown by the city attorney because they're misdemeanors. If they should be advanced to felonies, at some point, that could change. But at this time, it's not Washington County. It's Taneytown itself. Kendra Duggar has since been released on a $1,470 bond. So she's gone from the Washington County Detention center as of Friday evening. Her husband still seemingly is going to be extradited to Florida. Nobody knows in the media if they actually have legal representation at this point. And this is obviously a very, very disturbing story for, you know, so many reasons. But we'll be continuing to monitor it because I think it just speaks to, unfortunately, the prevalence of the sexual abuse of children in society and how kind of these things can come up. I mean, obviously, Joseph Duggar is innocent until proven Guilty.
- [52:26]
Kevin Greenlee
As is Kendra.
- [52:27]
Anya Cain
As is Kendra Duggar. But certainly, I mean, if, if he's making confessions to the parent of his, you know, his alleged victim, that is pretty, I mean, would it be fair to say that that's a pretty bad situation to be in? Legally?
- [52:53]
Kevin Greenlee
Yes.
- [52:53]
Anya Cain
And, and to be clear, it's not only that he was admitting it to the victim's father, remember, he's also admitting it to Taneytown detectives. I don't know if, I don't know if it's a situation where the father of the victim calls him up and confronts him and he doesn't realize the Taneytown detectives are also on the line. That can happen. Or is it a situation where he knows and he says it anyway? I don't know. But either way, that's a pretty bad situation to be in. And, you know, a lot of people who work with cases involving children, cases involving the sexual abuse or alleged sexual abuse of children, you know, it can happen where people are wrongfully accused, but it's rare. It's quite rare.
- [53:40]
Kevin Greenlee
It's quite rare.
- [53:41]
Anya Cain
It's actually extremely rare. So, you know, that's not. Now, rare is not impossible. You have to be open minded. But at the same time, being open minded, I don't think should ever mean dismissing something so serious. And frankly, I, you know, I, you know, we'll wait for whatever happens, whether there's a plea deal or whether there's a trial or whatever. But it's, it's all very disturbing and I thank you all for listening and, you know, taking this issue seriously. Thank you.
- [54:10]
Kevin Greenlee
Thanks so much for listening to the Murder Sheet. If you have a tip concerning one of the cases we cover, please email us@murdersheetmail.com if you have actionable information about an unsolved crime, please report it to the appropriate authorities.
- [54:31]
Anya Cain
If you're interested in joining our Patreon, that's available at www.patreon.com murdersheet. If you want to tip us a bit of money for records requests, you can do so at www. Buymeacoffee.com murdersheet. We very much appreciate any support.
- [54:54]
Kevin Greenlee
Special thanks to Kevin Tyler Greenlee, who composed the music for the Murder Sheet and who you can find on the web@kevintg.com.
- [55:04]
Anya Cain
if you're looking to talk with other listeners about a case we've covered, you can join the Murder Sheet discussion group on Facebook. We mostly focus our time on research and reporting, so we're not on social media much. We do try to check our email account but we ask for patience as we often receive a lot of messages. Thanks again for listening.
- [55:29]
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