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- [00:00]
A
Anya. I'm Anya. And today we're going to talk once again about the case of Joseph Duggar, a reality television star accused of child molestation. Content WARNING this episode contains discussion of sexual crimes against children. So today is April 13, 2026, and today's episode on this case of Joseph Duggar. We're going to focus a lot on the affidavit that I received from Bay county authorities in Florida discussing the charges that Joseph Duggar faces in Florida. Previously, we talked about the Arkansas charges that Joseph and his wife Kendra were facing, and those have nothing directly to do with the child molestation accusations. Those had to do with basically false imprisonment and child endangerment. So as a reminder, Joseph Duggar is 31 years old. He was the seventh oldest of 19 children featured on the TLC series 19 Kids and Counting. And later he was also featured on the spinoff of that show, Counting On. His parents are Jim Bob and Michelle Duggar. They were sort of well known for sort of, you know, the show kind of focused on their family being, having so many kids, the kids growing up and getting married and, you know, kind of espousing some of their fundamentalist Christian views. And Kendra is Joseph's wife. She's 27, and she is the eldest of nine kids by Paul and Christina Caldwell. They wed in 2017 when she was 19, he was 23. And they have four children, two girls and two boys. And again, they were featured on. They were together featured on Counting on, and he was featured on 19 Kids and Counting. This case has attracted a lot of attention from the public, from the media, because obviously there are, you know, people who can be considered celebrities involved and also because there's disturbing echoes between this case and the case of Joseph's older brother, the eldest child in the family, Josh Duggar. And so people have been paying attention to this one. And I think it is a good opportunity to kind of talk about some of these issues of child molestation cases. Unfortunately, these are very common. These are very prevalent.
- [02:32]
B
They've certainly come up in other cases that we've covered. And so we've had become quite familiar with some of these issues. For instance, when we covered Kegan Klein.
- [02:42]
A
Right. And so unfortunately, these cases are way more common than anyone thinks. I think people kind of tend to, I don't think they get as much attention when they don't involve famous people, but they, but they certainly are a big problem. And I think talking about it, we can talk about how these kinds of cases work, how they typically go. Some of the, some of the ways that you can be aware of these issues so that, you know, you can protect the children in your life. And as. As a reminder, Josh Duggar was exposed for having inappropriately touched a number of underage girls as a teenage boy, including his multiple sisters and a family friend. And that's not why he's in prison today. He's in prison today because in 2021, the United States Marshal Service raided, I believe, his workplace and found that he was possessing child sexual abuse materials. And he was convicted of that in 21 and sentenced to 12 years in prison in 2022. So he is still serving that sentence. He continues to insist that he's innocent, but, you know, that seems pretty facetious and weak on its face.
- [03:50]
B
But anyway, the evidence suggests otherwise.
- [03:52]
A
Yeah, I think it might be interesting at some point if we were to go back and just look at that case too, and kind of talk about that, because, you know, that's a. That's certainly a substantive sentence for csam, which is, I think, good. I think that's a crime that has not always been treated with the seriousness that it deserves. And I think people should. Offenders should be getting hefty sentences for that, frankly, because it's. It's incredibly disturbing. But anyways, so we'll move on and talk about. We're gonna talk about the Florida charges. We're gonna talk about some emails that Joseph has been exchanging with family members, and we're gonna talk about some jail phone calls that have kind of continued to come out. My name is Anya Cain. I'm a journalist.
- [04:32]
B
And I'm Kevin Greenlee. I'm an attorney.
- [04:35]
A
And this is the murder Sheet.
- [04:37]
B
We're a true crime podcast focused on original reporting, interviews, and deep dives into murder cases. We're the murder sheet.
- [04:44]
A
And this is the case of Joseph Duggar. The Florida charges, calls and emails. Okay, so to start out with, I think we can, I guess start with this affidavit that I received. And this is from the Bay County Sheriff's Office. And we, we asked for this and they responded saying, you know, this is the only releasable document at this time. So this is what we got, and we appreciated them sending that. So the affidavit complaint is. Is pretty short. It's just two pages. And it starts out with going into sort of the offenses. So the first charge description is lewd and lascivious behavior, molestation victim less than 12 year old, 12 years old offender 18 years old or older. And then the second charge is lewd and lascivious behavior, conduct by a person 18 years old or older. So those are the two separate charges he's facing. And the investigator on this is Bay County Sheriff's investigator, Detective Chase Norris. And this crime was said to have occurred in, I believe a Panama City beach in Florida while the family, while Joseph and Kendra Duggar were on some kind of family vacation. It's interesting, there's actually a clip from the show counting on where the two of them do go to that area. But people have, I think been commenting on it like oh, this is, must have been when it happened. And I, I think it's important to note that those episodes, I believe aired in 2019. So what occurred with this situation was in 2020. So this if maybe it's a place where they went back to, you know, at least once. So I'm going to read this affidavit if that's okay, Kevin, and then maybe we can discuss it. So this is what it says. Quote, your affiant investigator, Chase Norris of the Bay County Sheriff's Office states the defendant, Joseph Garrett Duggar was found to be in violation of Florida State Statute 800 045B and 800.046B to witness. On March 18, 2026, I was contacted by a detective from the Taneytown Police Department. During our conversation, I learned the victim, a 14 year old female, participated in a forensic interview. During the forensic interview, the victim described several incidents of sexual abuse involving the defendant. The victim stated these incident incidents occurred during a family vacation in Panama City City Beach, Florida. I was forwarded a copy of the forensic interview for my review. While I was reviewing the forensic interview, I learned the following information. In 2020, the victim's family traveled to Panama City beach for a vacation. The family vacationed at an address on Danny Drive in Panama City Beach, Florida. During the vacation, the defendant asked the victim to sit on his lap. Numerous times. The victim would sit on the defendant's lap. The defendant would cradle the victim with his arms. As the vacation continued, the defendant would ask the victim to sit on the couch beside the defendant. The defendant covered the parties with a blanket. Once the parties were covered, the defendant would pull the victim's dress up and touch the victim's thighs. The victim stated the defendant would touch the top portions of her thighs and would inch higher and higher closer to the victim's waistline. The victim stated this occurred several times. During these incidents. The defendant's hand grazed the victim's vagina. The victim stated the defendant's hand was outside her underwear. When These incidents occurred. The victim stated this made her feel uncomfortable and confused. The victim stated the defendant eventually approached the victim and apologized for his actions. The incident stopped occurring after the defendant apologized for his actions. As the investigation progressed, I continued to speak with a detective from the Taneytown Police Department. During our conversations, I learned the victim's father confronted the defendant about these incidents on March 17, 2026. During their conversation, the defendant admitted his actions. Due to this, I requested the detective and victim's father call the defendant. During the call, the defendant admitted his actions, stating he touched the victim over her clothing. The defendant admitted his intentions were not pure. It should be noted the victim would have been nine years old at the time of this incident. The events did occur in Bay County, Florida. Chase Morris. Chase Norris. So that is kind of a detailed description of, you know, a pretty, pretty serious and horrible crime in this situation. You know, it's. Yeah, it's, it's very, it's very disturbing to, to kind of learn about this and, and people taking advantage of a child in this situation. So obviously everyone though is. Is innocent until proven guilty. I think it is important, and I a caveat that I think it's, you know, kind of gets repeated ad nauseam and sometimes I think people go way too far with it. Right? Because like, if someone's caught on video doing something, yes, the jury should view them as innocent until proven guilty, but everyone doesn't have to leave their common sense when they're commenting on something, you know.
- [11:08]
B
And in this case, he seems to have confessed it not only to the victim's father, but also to a police officer. He not only confesses to the action, but he further, according to this, confessed to what was in his mind and what his intent was at the time he did it.
- [11:29]
A
I wanted to ask you about that, Kevin, because to me, like, as a layperson, that seems like certainly a very big deal for, for you as somebody who's looking at this, you know, as an attorney, coming from that background, what do you think about how bad is that? When you're a defense attorney and your client has maybe admitted to that much. What, what's the reaction from how bad is that for his case?
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B
It's pretty bad for your case when your defendant, when your client confesses. Yes, I did that. And by the way, when I did it, my intentions were not pure.
- [12:12]
A
Like, not even making excuse of like, oh, I did it by accident. It wasn't intentional, but like, no, I was doing it and.
- [12:18]
B
Or I was just playing with her. We were tickling and maybe My hands slipped. Yeah.
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A
Yeah.
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B
So he's admitting, yes, I did it.
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A
And for bad reasons.
- [12:26]
B
And for bad reasons. So that's pretty tough to recover from. You'd have to come up with some way to throw that out or to get around it, which difficult to do.
- [12:39]
A
Is it illegal for? Because one thing we, that this doesn't make clear is we don't know, is this a situation where Joseph Duggar is aware that there is a police detective on the phone call, or is this a situation where he thinks his, he thinks this victim father is just calling him? And, and that's, and that's something where I'll be curious, but I'm assuming, and I could be wrong here, but I'm assuming that in most instances it's, you know, the police can be on the call with somebody else and recording and, and doing stuff, and that's not illegal, right?
- [13:13]
B
Yeah.
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A
So that could be pretty.
- [13:16]
B
That, that varies, I'm sure, from state to state.
- [13:18]
A
Yeah, I'm sure there's different nuances to that. I don't want to be overly saying that. I just, my, my guess would be that, you know, because, yeah, it's, it's. It just seems like that's a pretty insurmountable thing, I would imagine in most situations. And I'm just talking about this purely from a legal strategy point of view. I'm assuming most the stronger defenses are this didn't happen. You know, you're confused. You know?
- [13:45]
B
Yeah, you're confused. You're. You were only nine years old at the time. This was years ago. You're confused. You're thinking maybe you had a bad
- [13:52]
A
dream or something, or maybe something did happen to you, but it wasn't me. And you're just confusing it because you were so young then.
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B
Yeah. So number one defense says this didn't happen. The number two defense would be, well, something like this did happen, but not quite that way. My motives were not sexual in nature. I was doing something else.
- [14:10]
A
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- [18:36]
B
In theory.
- [18:40]
A
So I wanted to drill down on the charges themselves because again, we, we drilled down on the Arkansas charges around child endangerment. And again, that's not directly linked. That has been reported by people that it was due to locks being on the outside of the doors of the children of Joseph and Kendra's children. And so that's, that's something that was, that was found during this investigation, but it's not like directly linked. So let's talk about the Florida charges. These are obviously the, you know, most serious charges. And I wanted to look at what the actual charges were. So these are under the Florida statutes. And I was looking up the 2025 Florida Statutes, specifically the kind of code around 800.04. And this is around lewdness and indecent exposure, lewd or lascivious offenses committed upon or in the presence of persons less than 16 years of age. Okay, so we're going to go to specifically subsection 5B. And this is in the category of lewd or lascivious molestation. And so this is 5B. An offender 18 years of age or older who commits lewd or lascivious molestation against a Victim less than 12 years of age commits a life felony punishable as provided in S775.0823 A4. So that is. That is sort of what Joseph duggar is facing. 5a is quote a person who intentionally touches in a lewd or lascivious manner the breasts, genitals, genital area or buttocks, or the clothing covering them of a person less than 16 years of age or forces or entices a person under 16 years of age to so touch, the perpetrator commits lewd or lascivious molestation. So the first one's describing the act and then B is the specific situation involving Joseph. That's important because whether or not the offender is 18 years of age or older is significant as far as culpability, sentencing, things like that. Unfortunately, as we saw from Joseph's own brother, Josh Duggar, child on child, lewd or lascivious molestation does happen. It does happen. It's probably, unfortunately more frequent than anyone wants to think about it. But in this case it's, it's an adult, it's a, you know, a man who's a full adult doing this crime against a nine year old girl. So when I was researching this, I kind of wanted to know what kind of sentence could someone expect to get around a crime like this in Florida. So what I found was that, you know, as, as we mentioned earlier in B, it defines this as a life felony. So in Florida that means that if you look at the, this section of their code, quote, except as provided by, in, in subparagraph in sub, sub paragraph B, for a life felony committed on or after September 1, 2005, this is, this is what the sentences could be. One, a term of imprisonment for life or two, a split sentence that is a term of at least 25 years imprisonment and not exceeding life imprisonment, followed by a probation or community control for the remainder of the person's natural life. So you could be looking at life in prison or you could be looking at 25 years to life and then the remainder of your life you're on probation.
- [22:41]
B
So in other words, this is an extraordinarily serious crime that is taken extraordinarily seriously by the state of Florida and the consequences Mr. Duggar is facing are life altering.
- [22:56]
A
Yes, this is not. I mean, you do see sometimes, like there can be differences across the board in terms of how different crimes are treated. Sometimes I've gotten frustrated when you're like, wait, the guy was molesting kids and only got this much. But this is obviously a state, you know, this is a, in the code, it's, it's shown, yeah, we're, this is taken very seriously.
- [23:17]
B
So obviously that doesn't mean he will necessarily get those sentences. And it's also entirely possible that some sort of plea arrangement will be worked out.
- [23:27]
A
That's a really good point. I'm glad you mentioned that because it is, it is not. It does not mean that he will get that. It's also possible, as you noted aptly, that this case may not go to trial. That's always. I'm not saying that's going to happen here. I'm just saying that that is always a possibility when we're talking about things like this. Right. This is not always going to be something where the offender in different situations may look at the situation, say, I'm facing something very serious. Maybe I can plead down to, maybe we can have a plea deal where I'm, I'm, you know, admitting to the wrongdoing, but I'm getting a lesser charge. I don't know. It can be all manner of things that happen, but a lot of that depends on, like, what does the prosecutor want to do? Does the prosecutor feel like it's a slam dunk and they're just going to go for it? Or, you know, are they, you know, how, how is everyone feeling about the situation? So that's the first one. The next charge is again, lewd and lascivious behavior, conduct by a person 18 years old or of age or older. This is 800 046B. And for this one we're talking about with B, it's so lewd or lascivious conduct. A person who intentionally touches a person under 16 years of age in a lewd or lascivious manner or solicits a person under 16 years of age to commit a lewd or lascivious act, commits lewd or lascivious conduct. And B is specifically an offender 18 years of age or older who commits lewd or lascivious conduct, commits a felony of the second degree. So felony of the second degree. My understanding is that when you're committing, you know, second degree felony and you're 18 years old, Boulder, you can get up to 15 years in prison and pay a $10,000 fine. So obviously a pretty possibly hefty sentence, too. Not as much as the other one, but there can be bargaining chips, honestly, and kind of saying, well, you know, we're going to get you on one of these and maybe you plead down. Or it can be like, let's go to trial and we'll let the jury decide. So that's what Joseph Duggar is facing in Florida now. I wanted to provide some updates about what's going on and where he is and what's happening, because he's not currently incarcerated is my understanding. The Associated Press reported that he posted a $600,000 bond and flew home to Arkansas after making, you know, his initial appearance in Florida to respond to the charges. He's represented by an attorney named Albert Saleen, who has stated to the press that he wants to make sure that Joseph Duggar receives a fair, you know, hand of. Treated fairly, despite his fame and the judge in. In this case so far, Judge Brantley Clark banned Duggar from having any unsupervised contact with anyone under 18. So he's. He's out on bond. I thought it might be interesting to take the opportunity. There's been some insights into how Joseph Duggar and his family are thinking about this. It's interesting because publicly a lot of Joseph Duggar's siblings, you know, publicly expressed their sympathy with the victim or even kind of condemned this a bit. But it sounds like behind the scenes, there's definitely been, you know, it's a different situation. People magazine has reported on a lot of this stuff in terms of getting some of these emails. They got one from one of Joseph's sisters, Joanna. Her husband, Austin Forsyth, wrote him an email saying, quote, I don't want to discuss your issues over these communications. You need to only be talking with your attorney. And then God works despite the sin of man for his good. And he was praising God because Joanna and him started getting closer to Joseph and Kendra in the last year and a half. And, quote, it was almost as if God, quote, knew that Kendra was going to need help and that he and his wife are helping her. And, quote, I want you to know that I love you. Jesus loves you and continues to draw you closer to him. Joseph signed off. Joseph responded, thanking them for their support. Interestingly, this was sent March 25th. The same day Joy Anna actually posted her statement saying her heart was with the victim. I think some people have been critical of this because they're like, okay, publicly you're condemning him, but privately supporting him. I mean, obviously it's a complicated situation. I'm not going to really weigh in on that part of it, but just noting that there was actually a pretty interesting email from Joseph's father, Jim Bob, where he was pretty. I don't know, I. What you want to call it stern or. He said, quote, you've made some terrible decisions, but God has already forgiven you. If you've asked him. You're just going to have to accept the situation at this point. It's also fine to pray that God would have mercy on you, but you're probably going to face a major consequence for several years to come. Mom, and I love you very much. And saying his son had a long road ahead of him saying, quote, David in the Bible royally messed up, but he repented and became a man after God's own heart. Kind of telling him to make lemons out of lemonade, make lemon lemonade out of lemons in prison. And no. So he sent that email. But he also was actually on March 31st with his son in the Florida courtroom. So there's that. I know that. I guess he and Kendra and Joseph have been exchanging, exchanging emails. He wrote, hopefully this finds you well. Love you sweetie. Heart, heart, heart. Love you to the moon and back. This is March 23rd. Kendra wrote him back. I got your message. I love you. Hang in there. Joseph said, great talking with you today. I always love getting to hear your voice. I hope you have a wonderful grade filled day. He passed on like different Bible verses. She passed on a Christian song, Megan Wood's the Truth. And he talked about Psalm 54 from the Bible, which apparently reads in part, arrogant foes are attacking me. Ruthless people are trying to kill me. People without regard for God. Surely God is my help. The Lord is the one who sustains me. Let evil recoil on those who slander me in your faithlessness, faithfulness, destroy them. End quote. I don't know how much we should be reading into any of this to be honest. Like maybe that speaks to mindset. I don't know, maybe it doesn't. Maybe it's more nuanced, kind of a defensive posture if you're looking for, for that part of the psalm, you know, it's less like I messed up really badly and more like people are attacking me. It's like people tend to do that when you break the law against children. But again, I don't, I don't know, I don't really believe in all this kind of like let's analyze every word. Like I just, I don't know, it doesn't really matter. What matters is the facts of the case, I guess. Interestingly, Joseph got an email from Anna Duggar, who is Josh Duggar's wife. Josh Duggar, who's now serving a hefty sentence for csam. As we mentioned earlier, she wrote, you're, you've got our prayers. We love you. However we can help, please let us know. I think I put some money on your books. I don't remember how phone calls and video calls work. Please let me know if I can help get things set up so you can talk with, call and talk with Kendra. Just remember, don't talk about anything legal unless you're with an attorney. Everything said in these messages, phone calls and video chats are recorded and turned over to prosecutors, end quote. So she's obviously pretty knowledgeable about how this stuff works because she's been through it before. Yeah, she's asking about like, are they keeping you in solitary that you go into a pod? Yeah, it's just, it's just interesting to kind of see how things are going behind the scenes. And then there were some jail calls that were released between Kendra and Joseph. They, they talk about a lot of different things and, and you know, these have been published in different media outlets so far. But they're, they seem. One way I would characterize them is they're hyper aware that they're being recorded. So they're really not talking about the case at all. They're really not talking about much. Barely even acknowledging that they're kind of talking about like everything else. Does that make sense?
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B
That makes a lot of sense.
- [32:35]
A
So. And also Kendra revealed in those that she's being represented now by an attorney. And that's a Travis story. And he, you know, is kind of been discussed in the press as the Duggar family's like long term attorney. Like, you know, like he's, he's worked for them. I think he's done work for Josh Duggar too. But yeah, he was I guess Jim Bob's lawyer for a long time. So in terms of what they're talking about, some kind of, I guess notable things you had. They talked about like getting the legal papers. They didn't talk about like what was in those. They talked about, you know, how she was gonna hire this Travis guy. And Joseph talked about how knowing everything was being recorded, quote, my brain had to slow down because it was going too quick whenever I first got here. It just took a while for it to calm. And then I was like, well, you know what? I came to the realization. I was like, I'm here. I need to just embrace where God has me and just start where I am. He kind of talked about the story of Joseph in the Bible and how he just had to embrace the situation. Joseph obviously being like sold into captivity by his brothers. Again, it's sort of, it's sort of interesting seeing some of the things he cites because again, like, there's a, there's certainly plenty of instances in the Bible where people mess up in a. That's probably too much of a euphemism to say Here, I mean, you mess up when you accidentally get into a fender bender, not when you touch a kid inappropriately, but, like, that's a horrible thing to do to somebody else. And there's certainly a lot of sin to go around in, in the Old Testament and New, but it's like he's kind of comparing himself to people who aren't really doing anything wrong. Wasn't Joseph's fault that his dad liked him better than his brothers, and his brothers freaked out and sold him into slavery. He's kind of the victim in that situation.
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B
Right, Right.
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A
We've all been annoyed and jealous of our siblings at times or gotten into quarrels, but we shouldn't do that to them. So it just, it's just interesting to me. Like, some of what he's citing here, he talked about, actually. He talked about, like, quote, well, boundaried conversation. So I'll, I'll read this because I, I, I want to get your take on this quote. The chapters that have spoken out to me, I just kind of like etched them on the side of a styrofoam cup. But an interesting, I was reading through Exodus, something that was really interesting. It was talking about boundaries. The devotional side, I think it actually said that the conversation that Jethro had with Moses, you know, Jethro was the father in law of Moses. It said that it was a very, well boundaried conversation. It was interesting that they brought that out. And it was like Jethro came to him adult to adult kind of conversation, and he was like, hey, this might help you. And he's like, but it's, but it's your, you know, it's your choice, you know, in the end. And then Moses took the advice and it helped him, you know, significantly. But then it said Aaron. Another time it mentioned the boundaries was when Aaron built the golden calf when he was up on the mountain, end quote. I thought that was kind of interesting.
- [36:04]
B
How so, what, what stood out to you from that?
- [36:07]
A
It's like a, it's like a, another adult male coming into a conversation, emphasizing talking adult. Adult. And how it's, well, boundaried, given how he came to be arrested. I find that interesting.
- [36:20]
B
Yeah, it is interesting in terms of
- [36:23]
A
like, oh, we're, we're talking man to man now. I could be interpreting that wrong. I, I'm not gonna, I'm not gonna act like I fully. We're, you know, with any call like this, we're kind of jumping into it midstream. Right. You know, there may be context. We're lacking. There might be nuances we're lacking. I'm just. I'm just saying when we know that the victim's father essentially went to him, seemingly to have that kind of confrontation and may have had police on the line with him. You know, it's interesting in that context. I'm not really. When I look at what Joseph's saying, I'm not really seeing a lot of, you know, he's just not talking about the case much. So it's not to say that this doesn't exist, but you're not seeing a lot of signs of, like, being penitent.
- [37:15]
B
And as you mentioned, though, he's well aware that it's a bad idea to talk about his case in these sorts of things.
- [37:21]
A
You can't really be penitent on a jail phone call unless you really want that to come up in court, you know, so I'm not even saying, like,
- [37:30]
B
obviously, we certainly saw. We certainly saw in the Richard Allen case where Richard Allen made a lot of comments about his case and his. He implicated himself in the case and
- [37:41]
A
some of what, 61 times in some
- [37:43]
B
of his prison communications. And in this case, Mr. Duggar, perhaps because of his brother's experience, but he is well aware that everything he says is being recorded and shared. So he's not going to talk about the case. And whether he, in his heart of heart, feels remorse or feels anger or feels he's the victim, he's not going to talk about that stuff directly.
- [38:09]
A
No, it doesn't seem like it. He and Kendra talk about, like, money selling trailers, selling tools, doing stuff with the houses to, I would imagine, you know, raise money, perhaps for the bond, perhaps for other things. There's other situations where they're talking about. Kendra's talking about how her health has taken a really big hit from all of this. She's weak. She's been really depressed. It's kind of hitting her slowly. She doesn't feel good. She. At one point, that was interesting, they were talking and she's like, I didn't feel good about our, like, last conversation. I just felt really weird. It was, like, very tense between us. So there's definitely stuff like that and kind of, you know, a lot of talk of religion and sort of feeling that God is supporting them. And, you know, there's instances where she seemingly reveals that she no longer has custody of the children, which would be because of the Arkansas charges that we talked in a previous episode where she, you know, she's, you know, charged with that, too, and she talks to him about, like, my priority has to be the children. My priority has to be basically getting them back. And he. He's supportive of that seemingly. Um, but she's almost telling him in some of these. And again, it's hard to know, like, what the order is based on what I was hearing, because I was just kind of cobbling them together from different sources. But, you know, sort of like I need to focus on them more. So I feel like I can't really be there as much for you because I really have to focus on them. So that was kind of interesting. She talks about how much her. His. I think she's saying how much the family, but I think she's talking about his family has been helping her and they're kind of all taking on different tasks. They're working on the kids, working on her, working on the attorneys, the businesses, and they really support them. So those are kind of the things. It's kind of an interesting glimpse behind, like, you know, we. We kind of all see these stories, but it's like they're kind of describing in some detail of, like, some of the practical considerations that can happen around money, you know, providing for the children and whatnot around this. But, yeah, I'll be really curious to see where it goes. I think I've seen definitely a lot of criticism of, you know, people like Kendra, where it's like, she's seemingly standing by a guy who's been accused of something like this. People oftentimes, I remember when the other. The charges against Josh Duggar came down, people were like, hoping that Anna would leave him and take the kids and get away, you know, and I think they were. You know, I saw similar conversations happening around Kendra and that when I listened to these, they seem pretty. There's definitely like, cracks showing in the sense that she's like. She sounds really. I mean, I don't mean to say this in like, kind of an over the top way, but like, the phrase that came to mind when I was listening to her voice in some of these calls is dead inside. Like, just totally drained, no energy, which is understandable. But, yeah, I'd be curious, you know, like, I think. I think the phenomenon of women who kind of maybe stand by a man after allegations like this, after charges like this, even after a conviction, I'm very interested in that, in trying to understand that, because I admit that I myself sometimes feel myself having like a real visceral disgust of that, of, like, how could you do that? But I think it's probably more complicated than I give it credit for just in my initial reaction of disgust. And that's not necessarily helpful. It's probably more helpful to understand where people. What prompts people to do that, you know.
- [42:00]
B
Yeah, absolutely. And there's also a spectrum, I think for most people, if you love someone, it may be difficult, if not impossible to grasp that perhaps there are huge dimensions and size to them that you didn't know they're not who they appeared to be. So some people may not accept it at first, they may accept it later as more and more evidence comes out. Other people may never accept it. Other people may feel that, oh, this allegation is simply not true.
- [42:32]
A
Some people might go with the not believing it and being in denial. And I think others might be more like, well, I believe it's true, but I'm sticking around anyway, you know. Yeah. Or like, I for I've forgiven them, God's forgiven them. So I'm, you know, who am I to not forgive? Or I guess, you know, you can forgive someone from a distance, but who, you know, who am I to leave? So, yeah, that's, that's interesting, that kind of phenomenon of women. And you see it, unfortunately, you see it in situations where it's like the woman's own child is the one who is coming forward with the allegations, which
- [43:09]
B
is not the case here.
- [43:11]
A
Not the case here. But in those situations it always really horrifies, but also kind of interests me because it's like, you know, the parental instinct to protect your child in some of these cases is being overwritten by the partner's desire to stay with that partner or defend that partner. So, you know, that's not what's happening here. It's just more of. I'm pointing out that that can be there. There can be a really strong force, you know, kind of that keeps people together regardless of accusations and whatnot. But yeah, it's interesting. I'm trying to. I'm trying to come into that with, with less anger and judgment, which is what I normally feel when I read about this stuff. And more curiosity, I suppose. But on some level I just, I don't get it, you know, um. But yeah, that's kind of some of the latest things going on in this case. We'll be kind of curious to see how things develop legally in Florida, especially because that is where the most serious charges are. I hope that by talking about this we can kind of again raise awareness about these issues, talk about what a child molestation case might look like, as well as answer questions about this high profile case. And discuss the charges. But I really appreciate all you guys for listening. Means a lot. And Kevin, was there anything else you wanted to say?
- [44:26]
B
I think you covered it all brilliantly, as always.
- [44:27]
A
Oh, I don't know about that, but I appreciate it. All right, thanks guys.
- [44:31]
B
Thanks so much for listening to the Murder Sheet. If you have a tip concerning one of the cases we cover, please email us at murder sheet gmail.com if you have actionable information about an unsolved crime, please report it to the appropriate authorities.
- [44:51]
A
If you're interested in joining our Patreon, that's available at www.patreon.com murdersheet. If you want to tip us a bit of money for records requests, you can do so at www. Buymeacoffee.com murdersheet. We very much appreciate any support.
- [45:15]
B
Special thanks to Kevin Tyler Greenlee, who composed the music for the Murder Sheet and who you can find on the web@kevintg.com if you're looking to talk with
- [45:26]
A
other listeners about a case we've covered, you can join the Murder Sheet Discussion group on Facebook. We mostly focus our time on research and reporting, so we're not on social media much. We do try to check our email account, but we ask for patience as we often receive a lot of messages. Thanks again for listening.