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- [00:00]
A
So you're running out of closet space. The good news, you don't need to stop shopping. You just need to start selling with the RealReal. The RealReal is the world's largest and most trusted resource for authenticated luxury resale. Whether it's that mini bag that can't even fit your phone or those boots you never fully broke in, the RealReal handles everything from photography and copywriting to shipping and pricing. So you can just sit back, get paid, and make room for things that actually feel like you. And with 10,000 new arrivals every single day from top designers like Prior Prada, Celine, Louis Vuitton, and Loewe, all for up to 90% off retail, you're bound to find something perfectly on brand to fill that extra closet space with. Plus, right now, you can get an extra $100 to shop when you sell for the first time. Make room for what feels like you go to therealreal.com to start selling and get your extra $100 to keep shopping@therealreal.com that's therealreal.com terms apply.
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B
Foreign
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C
I'm Anya, and today on the Cheat Sheet, we're covering three cases involving family violence and one involving rap lyrics. Content warning. This episode contains discussion of violence and murder. So, Kevin, where are we going today on the Cheat Sheet?
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B
Well, I guess we are starting. Correct me if I'm wrong, In Indiana.
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C
Yeah.
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B
So that's our home state.
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C
Don't have to travel far at all. So save on gas. In this era of inflation, we could. We could use. Maybe next time we'll just stay in Indiana the whole time.
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B
I don't think anybody wants that. And then we're going to chug over. Is chug the right word for a train?
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C
Yeah.
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B
Or is it? You're the engine expert.
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C
Well, I think you got it right. I think you're overthinking it.
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B
Going over to Ohio and then Utah, and then we're going to your native state, the state that birthed you, the state from whom loins you sprung.
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C
Don't say that. That's just a weird thing. Why are you starting off the vibes of this cheat sheet by just being weird? New York, A weird man. And the Empire State.
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B
The Empire State of the East.
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C
No, the Empire State.
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B
And then we're going to end up coming back to Indiana for a little story. So get. Gather the kids.
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C
This is like an odyssey. Don't. Don't gather the kids. No. Don't traumatize the kids.
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B
For story time.
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C
No.
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B
Roast some marshmallows by the fire, Your kids.
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C
I mean, I guess teenagers, you know, probably understand murder, but, like, little kids shouldn't be listening to murder shows.
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B
I mean, for the story. Because the story.
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C
Oh, the story at the end. Yeah, that's what I'm saying.
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B
Okay, you have time. You can say, kids, come here about half hour or so, be a little story by the fire.
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C
And then your kids afterwards, after the episodes was. What was that all about? Mom and dad, what are you doing?
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B
We should have, like, ranks of the murder Sheet people. And if you introduce your children to it.
- [03:05]
C
Oh, no, no, no, no. Okay, first of all, that sounds like a cult. And second of all, why are you trying to introduce some bizarre, arbitrary hierarchy to our listeners? That's not what we should be doing here. What's wrong with you? Just people wonder why I'm so stressed out all the time. My name is Anya Cain. I'm a journalist.
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B
And I'm Kevin Greenlee. I'm an attorney.
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C
And this is the Murder Sheet.
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B
We're a true crime podcast focused on original reporting, interviews, and deep dives into murder cases.
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C
We're the Murder Sheet, and this is the cheat sheet. Acid and adultery.
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B
So it's kind of like a sentimental journey for you this week because we're going to start with your adoptive home state, the state you choose as your home, and we're going to end up in your native state.
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C
Okay.
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B
The Empire State of the Atlantic.
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C
No, you don't understand. So, yeah, this is going to be interesting. We're starting out in Norman, Indiana, which is a town in Jackson County, Indiana. We're going to be returning to Jackson county pretty soon for. For an, you know, some even more substantive case coverage. So I was kind of excited. In the probable cause affidavit, I saw some names I actually recognized because we've talked to people down there for that upcoming episode that's not out yet.
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B
And that upcoming episode does not involve train robbery, but there's, like, a history of train robbery in Jackson County.
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C
Yeah, the Reno brothers. I'm really nerdy about that for some reason. And, yeah, there's a whole. There's a whole thing that I think they have been. I've seen it. That they have been credited with being the first train robbers. I don't know if that's true, but people certainly have said that. And they were ultimately lynched, actually, in. In. In Indiana after doing one too many.
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B
Not. Not. Not in any ways a happy.
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C
No, not at all. They also. They also probably killed somebody. They were. They were like. Their hideout was Seymour, Indiana. That was where they hung out at this, like. I think it was like the Radar Hotel. And they were. You know, they were. They were not good guys, but also, you know, like, people shouldn't be lynched anyways. It was not. To be clear, they were. They were white. Lynching, unfortunately, was a quite a commonplace thing in Indiana. Sometimes it was a racist overtones thing and a racist thing where they were going after black victims to lynch them. And then other times, it was just like everyone was really ticked off at these train robbers. So they did that. But I don't think that. I don't think the lynching actually happened in Jackson County. In fairness, I think it happened few counties over when they were being held in jail. But anyways, that's the Reno brothers.
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B
Didn't the Reno brothers, correct me if I'm wrong, as I often am, but didn't they inspire an Elvis movie?
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C
They did.
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B
And not too many desperados, not too many murderers or thieves or cutthroats inspire Elvis movies.
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C
Yeah, they did inspire an Elvis movie, although the Elvis movie botched it, as you can, as an Elvis movie is want to do. The Elvis movie depicts them as being Confederate soldiers, which, you know, is not true. They were actually. They fought on the side of the Union. So, I mean, there were certainly a lot of Confederate sympathizers in southern Indiana at the time, but these guys were, you know, at least they were on the Union side for. For that conflict.
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B
And I feel bad now because I feel like I've taken you by the. You were on your path to tell a sad story, and I've taken you by the hand and I've led you astray to talk about Elvis and training.
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C
Here's a big question. Who would win, The Kane train or the Reno brothers? They're ghosts because they're dead.
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B
Well, I think this discussion proves that the Reno brothers literally have hijacked this episode. The episode, or is it train Jack?
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C
They. They. They took over the express car. That was where all the money was.
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B
There's no money on the cane train.
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C
What do we have in the express car then? What's going on in there?
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B
Because you take our savings. Oh, my goals. Toss them into the engine to get more power to go from state to state.
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C
Rap. So these arena brothers, they have trained Jack the cane train, but they're. They've not. They're not going to leave happy today. All the money's gone. What. What's happening? Okay, let's go back to Jackson County.
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B
I'm sorry. Yeah, I'm racked with guilt. And I'm, I'm filled with contrition.
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C
You should be. So we're, we're going to Jackson County. This case. I, I mean I, I shouldn't say I love cases like this because I mean, it's awful. People were killed. But there's certain cases that you get into in the cheat sheet and you're just like, okay, here's what this is. And then you're like, wait, you catch a reference to something. What's this all about? And then it just like throws everything for a loop. And this is certainly one of those cases several times over. So thank you very much to the listener who recommended this one. They recommended this one and noted that it's been a, it's been a tough case for the Jackson county community. And I can see why. So let's go back to when this happened. And this was January 30, 2025. So not too long ago. And what happened was that police were called to a farm in Norman, Indiana. And 91 1, a male victim had been shot. Call comes in around 9:07pm made by a woman named Rebecca Fox. And she thought her husband Robert had been shot in addition. So Detective Sergeant Jesse Hutchinson goes there and around 14 minutes later they also. There was also a call around 9:21, rather not 14 minutes later, but 9:21, where a woman named Sharon or Darlene Fox called 911 saying her husband Larry had been shot, Robert being her son. And police get there, Detective Sergeant Jesse Hutchinson is investigating. They find Larry, the, the father, the husband and father of this family, this sort of patriarch, shot in a barn. They try to save him, he dies and they talk about. So then they kind of like start investigating what on earth happened. So this is from the probable cause affidavit. So it says, quote, CSI detective JL McElfresh processed the scene of the homicide at the barn. During the processing of the scene, an AR style rifle, four 9 millimeter casings, blood, two cellular telephones, a flashlight, eyeglasses, a ball cap, red 12 gauge spent shot shells and other evidence was collected. One of the spent 12 gauge shotgun shell casings that was collected was close to the area where Robert advised us that he was standing when the gunshots started happening, end quote. So what Robert told police was essentially that they're just kind of standing there and somebody starts shooting his father. Right, and this is what, I'll go into more detail too, about what he said. Quote, in an interview with Robert Fox, Robert stated that he and Larry were at the Barn because Robert thought he'd seen trespassers on the property. Robert said that he had called Larry about possible trespassers and talked to Larry on the phone until Larry and Robert arrived at the barn. A search of Larry's cellular telephone shows three phone calls between Larry and Robert, end quote. So, okay, so like they're saying we're investigating these possible trespassers. Uh, they, they go into this lean to portion of the barn. They're just talking what's going on? And then Robert says suddenly a gunshot rings out from the east and his father, Larry falls to the ground. And that then he grabs his 9 millimeter handgun and fires three to four shots to the east towards the people who are shooting at them, seemingly. Then he goes down to pick up his dad and he says that he was also then struck in the left forearm by another shot. So he thought there were about like five shots from these mysterious suspects. He drags his dad into another room in the barn and then flees the scene and drives to his residence. So that is his story. And police immediately start picking holes in that. This is what the probable cause affidavit says. I mean, you can, when you hear that it's. I think it's more difficult than people think it is to stage a scene in a way that is going to fool police because the crime scene has to tell the same story as the witness.
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B
Yes.
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C
Once they start seeing things. Okay, that doesn't make any sense. That's a real problem. So this is the probable cause of a David. Quote, discrepancies exist between Robert's statements and the physical evidence recovered during the investigation. Specifically, Roberts said that at the time Larry was shot, Larry was facing east and that the gun that struck Larry came from the east and came from beyond a tree line to the east of the property. However, Larry's body has a shotgun style wound with nine closed set holes with the entry point of the wounds in the back and one exit wound in the front. Accordingly, Larry was shot from behind and not from the front. There were still eight pellets still in Larry's body and one pellet had exited out the front of Larry's body. Additionally, the tree line to the east of the Property is approximately 30ft from where Robert and Larry were standing at the time Larry was shot. Excuse me. According to the coroner that performed the autopsy of Larry's body, Larry's back had a bruise consistent with being struck at high velocity by the wadding from a shotgun shell. Additionally, a jacket Larry was wearing at the time he was shot had holes in the back consistent with penetration by buckshot from a shotgun and contains a white material used to bind shotgun pellets together for some distance after firing prior to spreading. A firearms examiner employed by the Hamilton County Coroner's Office in Bush Ash, Ohio, told me that the close set holes in Larry's back, coupled with the bruise and the presence of the white material on the jacket, indicate Larry was shot at very close range, much closer than the minimum 30ft claimed by Robert End quote. Am I the only one who gets kind of frustrated shopping online sometimes? Like, how am I supposed to remember a hundred different logins and passwords for a hundred different websites? And people wonder why I'm known for opting for serial heists.
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B
You can't even remember where your phones are half the time. And I'm not being mean. Anya wrote this script a likely story,
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C
but I've got a solution. Whenever I see that beautiful purple pay button at the top of payment options, I know I'm in good hands. No digging around for my wallet. No checking the ancient text to puzzle out long forgotten passwords. Shopify lets me just tap that button and complete my checkout. The purple button is truly one of the best features in the chaotic world of online shopping.
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B
That is why we love our new sponsor, Shopify. They're the commerce platform behind millions of businesses around the I'm talking 10% of all E commerce in the United States, from household names to brands just getting started. They've got it all.
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C
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B
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C
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- [15:49]
D
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C
Okay, so they're saying Robert's story doesn't make any sense. But why on earth would this guy lie? Why would he have a reason to lie about his father? Well, when they spoke with Larry's other children and Larry's wife Darlene, and the other children being Doug, Travis and Christie, they said that Larry and Darlene owned like 700 acres of real estate, and that's worth millions of dollars, this really big farm operation. Now, apparently there'd been trouble brewing between Larry and his son Robert because Larry felt that Robert was not working as hard as Larry would prefer him do, and he was going to reduce his inheritance. There was supposed to be these different trusts and different people were going to inherit different aspects of this, but that may have been in jeopardy for Robert. And so, you know, if he was facing maybe being disinherited or getting a lot less, that was, that was seen as a motive. So they, the. The Jackson County Sheriff's Department, which is the lead agency here, they start searching Robert and Rebecca's home. And they find a Winchester model 1400 semi automatic, 12 gauge shotgun. And they also find a bunch of rounds of estate brand 12 gauge,00 buckshot that matched the spent casing recovered from the shooting scene. And they find on February 1, 2025, they get called by Travis Fox, the brother, and he says that he located a camera upstairs in the barn and that it had been destroyed. So, okay, so someone's like, you know, not just maybe telling a story, but also maybe destroying evidence. And that had been like basically blasted by a shotgun, seemingly. Then they also interviewed Rebecca Fox, again, Robert's wife, and she backs up the story of her husband. And this is the interview, I believe, done by Detective Clint Burcham, who again is going to come up in another case. It's so weird to see some of these names again, but. So she, or rather Detective Burcham talked to Robert and then, yeah, this is all being done with, with Jesse Hutchinson. So apologies. So, so she says she's confronted then by Hutchinson and quote, Rebecca then hung her head, dropped her shoulders and nodded in agreement with my statement that she knew more than she was saying, but she kind of stuck to her same story. So Robert sticks with his story, at least for that time. But then a guy named Harlan Deaton is, is brought into the Jackson County Sheriff's Department, and he disclosed that Robert had given him a black shotgun and asked him to dispose of it and that he threw it in a Pond at his parents house in Brownstown, Indiana, which is also in Jackson County. So, okay, the case against Roberts looking pretty dire. And Robert's, you know, a pretty, I think, young guy. He was, I think 27 at least this year. And what happens is he goes, I'm sorry, he's 29 this year. So Robert Walter Dean Fox, 29. Now this is an article based on an art. So that was all the probable cause affidavit. This is based on an article from the Tribune of Seymour, Indiana. He was. The defense sort of shifted. It went from Robert didn't shoot him to he shot him in during an argument. So what the jury had to look for was was Robert Fox guilty of murder? Was he not guilty or of anything? Or was he guilty of voluntary manslaughter? And what they were talking about was, quote, a sudden heat and that he basically killed his dad in a fit of rage because his father made an insulting and demeaning comment about his mother who was dealing with cancer at the time. So the jury deliberated for five hours and came back with a guilty verdict. So he was convicted of murder. People said that some of the jurors were actually crying. It was a difficult decision apparently, but that's what happened. So all of that is, is, is wild in, in and of itself. But let's, and, and just to be clear on who was involved with this. So the chief deputy prosecutor, Mark Hollinsworth seemingly was doing a lot of this case. And then also defense attorney Bradley Johnson of Seymour, Indiana. But I caught this one reference in one of the pretrial filings. And this was, I was like, what? It was a motion in lemonade. You know, you gotta love those.
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B
What, what is this motion in lim?
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C
No, you're the attorney, you tell us.
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B
I don't know what you're about to, to say, but emotion in Lemonade is where prior to trial, either one side or the other files a motion saying, oh, here's a particular subject or topic which should not be brought up in trial.
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C
Yes. And this was the topic, quote, that Larry Fox Senior, the deceased victim in this case, was charged with and convicted of a serious offense back in the 1980s time frame. That conviction was later overturned and Larry Fox senior was retried for that offense and was acquitted, end quote. So I'm sitting there like, wait, what? And I was like, what? How serious of an offense are we talking about? Murder. That's how serious. So I literally went back on newspapers.com and what happened? Oh, yeah, we're, we're going to Talk about what happened. So on March 29, 1986, Larry Fox Senior went out with his 32 year old girlfriend, Joyce L. Byers of rural Bedford, Indiana in Lawrence County. They went out on Hardy Lake and prosecutors say he severely beat her and dumped her in the water to drowned. So she, she, she drowned. So she died of asphyxia due to drowning. But she had all these bruises on her right leg, right arm and scalp. And what, you know what, they, when they dug into this, they found that buyers had actually obtained an order of protection alleging physical abuse by Fox. So then Scott. So this happens, you know. Nearby Scott County. Scott county prosecutor Roger L. Duvall worked with Dr. John Pless, who is the director of the Department of Forensic Pathology at Indiana University School of Medicine. And they looked at this and what Dr. Pless said was that she had been beaten unconscious before her body even hit the water. So he was convicted of that. At the time he was listed as being from Waymansville. And my source for this is the Associated Press and the Kokomo Tribune and the Seymour Tribune and the Republic. So that initially happened, but then he sought a retrial and he had been convicted. He had been, you know, he'd been saying, well he, you know, it was, he didn't murder her. And his, his, his attorney was I believe Russell Johnson. And what he said, he said that there was improper communications around the jurors impaneled for the trial. And this is like wildly close to home, but Larry Fox Sr. Apparently was employed with the Cummins Engine Company of Columbus at this time. I have, we've gotta, we've gotta ask your dad if he, if he knew him. But he was sentenced to 40 years. So he went to the Indiana Reformatory. But, but ultimately, yeah, they, they actually I guess had to give him a new trial. There was a second trial and he was acquitted at that one. Apparently according to the Republic, there was like new information where they were appealing based on things like the, so Byers and Fox apparently had a 15 year old son and he claimed that he saw his mom accidentally like holding the back of her head and maybe was like heard a loud noise in the garage and she said, oh, I hit my head on the back of the, you know, Jeep. And so basically like, oh, she was injured before, you know, and like he didn't do it to her and that, and that was sort of a big basis of what they were saying. Another person witnessed seemingly Byers falling off the back of the boat and said he didn't think it looked suspicious.
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B
So he was acquitted.
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C
Yeah.
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B
And his attorney, Russell Johnson.
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C
Yes.
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B
Kind of a well spoken man, almost like a professor. What? I'm amusing myself over here. Russell Johnson. I wonder if Marianne was in the audience. Russell Johnson, the actor who played the professor on Gilligan's Island.
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C
Oh, okay.
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B
This act, the, the actor did not become a lawyer in Columbus, Indiana.
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C
I was just, well, it's weird because then Bradley Johnson represented the, his son, you know, convicted of murdering him. But I don't, I don't know if
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B
there was, I wonder if Bob Denver was involved in some way.
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C
I, I don't know. But yeah, this is, this is pretty interesting. I just find it, I mean, to me, if someone, I'm sorry, like I'm, I personally think if someone has a history of physically abusing somebody and then is, you know, that person mysteriously ends up dead, then yeah, I, you know, that, that does raise some red flags for me.
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B
But obviously, you know, you can't convict a person based on bad character. And if this person also was acquitted,
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C
maybe. But without going into a deep dive there, I'm just, I'm just saying red flags all around. But now, now his son is, is going to be, you know, serving the sentence. I don't think he's going to be sentenced until April, but it sounds like it was a tough call for the jury. Some of them were very emotional, you know, but I, yeah, it seems like a mess. I, I, I'll be curious if anyone in, you know, the Jackson county area has insights into E. Because it's very interesting when you have like, you know, these kind of parallels across time about whether you think, you know, Fox Senior was, you know, was he, was he wrongfully convicted the first time and then he got justice the second time or, you know, did the jury let him off on a, you know, like, did he, did he really do it? I don't know. I'd be curious about what people think about that and what people think about his son Robert getting convicted. Do people think that that was fair? Do they think it was murder or do they think it was manslaughter? I mean, personally, like, if you're lying about everything from the beginning, kind of feels like I can understand why the jury was skeptical about, you know, that especially if, like, you're having a big argument, why are you then shooting somebody in the back? Yeah, you know, it's not like they're charging towards you, but I don't know, it's interesting.
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B
It is interesting.
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C
So that's Indiana for you.
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B
So I have a couple of cases Here. And maybe I'm overthinking this, but the two cases I'm going to discuss involve spouses killing each other. And I don't want people to think, oh, Kevin and Anya must have had a bad week. You know, maybe she burned the fish or something. So don't think that. In fact, everything is great. And I'm going to mention something here. Anya is so wonderful. She's even. She's bought. She's ordered an Easter bonnet, which I haven't seen. She's gonna make handmade alterations to it, and she's told me. She.
- [28:49]
C
I don't know about that part.
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B
That's what she told me. She said, kevin, I'm gonna add things to it. Secret.
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C
I'm gonna monitor the situation, and then
- [28:56]
B
she's going to unveil it for me and everybody on a Patreon live. So I'm very excited about that. I think that's gonna make our Patreon numbers skyrocket. Everyone wants to see Anya in her brand new Easter bonnet with handmade alterations. So everything's great between us. Don't read too much into these awful cases.
- [29:20]
C
That didn't sound offensive at all.
- [29:22]
B
What? I just want people to think, oh, oh, what's going on there?
- [29:25]
C
People are calling the police.
- [29:30]
B
My first case I'm going to discuss is from the Buckeye State.
- [29:33]
C
Ah, Ohio.
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B
Ohio. Our neighbor to the east. That's right. You love Ohio. You have nothing but praise for Ohio. You always talk about how friendly the people are there.
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C
Ulysses Grant is from Ohio.
- [29:46]
B
Yes. Warren G. Harding.
- [29:48]
C
Well, I prefer Ulysses Grant.
- [29:52]
B
My sources for this are Fox News and the Columbus Dispatch. This involves a couple, a married couple with kids, Caleb Flynn and Ashley Flynn. And Caleb Flynn actually at one point appeared as a contestant on American Idol, which is a talent show, right?
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C
That's right. I used to watch that as a kid.
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B
Did you tell me you competed on it once?
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C
No, and we just fell down a well. What just happened to your audio? You're like swinging around your mic.
- [30:26]
B
Well, that was an accident. That's best be best not to comment on it. So, yeah, he was a contestant on American Idol. So they're like old clips of him talking back in the day about how great his wife is, how pretty she is. So back on February 16th of this year, he makes a 911 call from his home in Tipp City, which is near Dayton, Ohio, in which he very. He's very upset, and he says someone has broke into their home and shot his wife. And this is also especially upsetting because the couple's young children were in the home at the time.
- [31:17]
C
Wow.
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B
Police come and investigate and they ultimately come to the conclusion that the crime scene has been staged in an attempt to cover up the fact that Mr. Flynn is the one who committed this crime. And they point out to things like there was a side door to the garage that was open, but ordinarily there was like a big refrigerator in front of that door in the garage, like blocking the way into the home. And that had been moved. So I. That certainly lends some sort of suspicious interpretations, like perhaps he moved it after the fact to support the idea that someone broke in.
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C
Yeah.
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B
The center console in his car, his truck, that's in the garage had been left open, and that is where he typically stored his handgun. So that's also kind of.
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C
So like whenever there's a murder and then a bunch of things that are sort of unusual, those are gonna be
- [32:36]
B
what, you know, the police focus on.
- [32:38]
C
Right.
- [32:39]
B
He maintains his innocence. If we assume for the moment that he is guilty, it's really just enraging to think that not only did he commit this crime and take the life of his wife who loved him, but he did it at a time when his children were in the home. So traumatizing them, surely just to an incredible extent. I can't imagine what would go through the mind of a father and a husband who would commit such heinous acts towards those who he has a responsibility to love and care for.
- [33:24]
C
I'd be curious, like, if there was a history at all, documented or undocumented, of domestic violence, of intimate partner violence from him toward her over the course of their relationship, or if this truly just came, you know, out of nowhere or, you know, there's also, I mean, there's also the possibility that there could have been emotional abuse or, you know, non physical forms of abuse going on that, you know, sometimes people almost think, oh, well, it's just emotional abuse. And what. What I think it's important to note is that that can be a precursor to physical things turning physical or even deadly. So it's important not to dismiss that. It is a big deal. If someone's talking to you and being abusive, that is a huge, huge, huge red flag and you need to get out of there, basically. But I'd be curious if this. What happened.
- [34:23]
B
He told police that his wife is shot twice in the head. I'm not saying to always distrust people, but I think things deserve a higher level of scrutiny if you have something like a home invasion when there's a husband and a wife in the house, and the husband is relatively uninjured, if not wholly uninjured, while the wife has been injured fatally. Yes, because typically the criminal, the bad guy, is going to seek to immobilize the greater threat. And I don't mean to be sexist here, but typically a male is stronger and a greater threat than a woman.
- [35:13]
C
That's right.
- [35:14]
B
And so in most cases, your first shots, the first person you want to disable is going to be the male. And if you have a situation where the male has either minor injuries or no injuries at all and the woman has had something done to her, like being shot twice in the head, that deserves a higher level of scrutiny in my mind.
- [35:33]
C
Jeffrey McDonald, the classic story where this guy, who is, you know, a Green Beret physician, is. Is strong, is trained, and the story he tells police is that a group of hippies break into his house that he shares with his wife and two very small daughters, and they brutally murder his wife. They brutally murder these two little kids, including a toddler, and he gets away with a very carefully done ice pick into one of his lungs, and that's it.
- [36:11]
B
And I would also be remiss if I didn't bring up the case of Dr. Samuel shepherd, which has a similar set of facts where the wife is killed and the husband lives with relatively minor injuries. One of these days I keep threatening, one of these days we'll cover that case. I believe that was an early case of innocence fraud. He is convicted, the conviction is thrown out. He is retried and acquitted. I believe he's guilty of that crime.
- [36:41]
C
Now I will throw out one counterpoint, countercase. And this is also, ironically, involving all three of these involve physicians in 2007, horrific home invasion murders in Cheshire, Connecticut. And that was Dr. William Pettit. His. His wife, Jennifer Hawk Pettit, and their two daughters, Michaela and Haley. He's. He's very badly injured in that, though. But he does escape the house as it's on fire. The other three members of his family are horrifically killed. So you can have a sole male survivor and that person be totally innocent, as was the case in that situation. It's just that in what. I think those deserve scrutiny.
- [37:23]
B
It deserves a higher level of scrutiny.
- [37:25]
C
Again, he was badly beaten.
- [37:27]
B
So that's a.
- [37:28]
C
You know, so.
- [37:28]
B
And.
- [37:28]
C
And he had been, like, tied up in the basement.
- [37:30]
B
So I'm not saying any male survivor has to be guilty. I'm just saying it deserves a higher level of scrutiny, especially when the male survivor has relatively minor Injuries or no injuries.
- [37:42]
C
And I don't think it's sexist to that men would pose the greater threat to an intruder. I think, you know, we're not, not in every case. Maybe in some instances the wife would be physically stronger. I think in most cases that's not gonna be the case. And certainly that wouldn't necessarily be the perception of the intruder, you know, and, and I, I think you would want to incapacitate the male husband and father first. And you have to be asking yourself, you know, why, why didn't that happen? So that doesn't mean anyone's guilty, but it does, it does bear. It does warrant common sense scrutiny.
- [38:19]
B
And again, in this case, of course, Mr. Flynn is innocent until proven guilty. And his defense attorney is really steadfastly maintaining that Mr. Flynn is innocent and feels that the investigation was rushed and rushed to judgment. So that's something to keep an eye on. Certainly the other case I wanted to mention, this is out of Utah. And the source for this is nbcdfw.com and this is the case everybody's talking about. This is the Corey Richards case. This is a woman who is accused of poisoning her husband. And because she wanted, presumably, I think the claim is she was interested in the potential of kind of like an insurance, pardon me, not an insurance payout, but she thought if he died, she would inherit his estate, which was worth about 4 million. And at the time she was about 4.5 million in debt.
- [39:32]
C
Jeez.
- [39:33]
B
And she also wanted to get a fresh start in life. There's some indications she may have been interested in other people. And she's accused of poisoning him. And I think the detail about this case that catches a lot of people's attention is that before she was arrested, she self published a children's book called are you with me? And that book tells the tale of a father who's deceased. He has angel wings, and he's somehow still keeping an eye on his son after he dies. So it's supposedly, I guess, a way to help kids deal with grief.
- [40:17]
C
It's interesting. Oftentimes you. Okay. Oftentimes, I wonder. And you and I have often had these conversations on the show when a spouse. And of course, she has not been convicted yet. Right? She's not been convicted yet. No, she's not been convicted. There's no, there's no verdict.
- [40:36]
B
Nor has she been trials going on now.
- [40:37]
C
Nor has she been acquitted.
- [40:39]
B
Right.
- [40:39]
C
We don't. Or. Nor has there been a mistrial. So it's still ongoing. So I'm not saying anyone's guilty, but oftentimes you. And I wonder when a spouse kills the other spouse, whether that's, you know, a man or a woman or same sex couple or whatever we're talking about. You know, why don't you just get divorced? Why are we, why are we killing each other? What's going on? One thing that I sometimes, and I always kind of vaguely felt this with the Brendan Banfield case in Virginia was there's a certain type of personality that would almost rather their spouse be dead also, because then it gets them sympathy, you know, if they can kind of get away with it and be. Instead of like, oh, my marriage fell apart and therefore, like, I'm going to be judged for that. There's like an element to it where it's like, oh, no, no. Like, I. I'm a victim here too. It's so sad. It's this performative, like, let me use this to gain. I'm not saying that's what happened here. I'm just saying, like, that can be something, I think.
- [41:34]
B
And in this case, there's also allegations that she wanted his estate.
- [41:37]
C
Yeah.
- [41:38]
B
She wanted the money.
- [41:39]
C
So you get the, you get the performative. Oh, I'm helping people deal with grief because I've been through a tragedy and you have the money.
- [41:48]
B
Like, if you divorce me, which, again, you're not going to do. My God, Kevin, you're not going to walk away with any of my comic books or very few of my comic books. But if you kill me, which I also hope you're not going to do, you get all of my comic books.
- [42:02]
C
It's interesting. How much would they be worth?
- [42:06]
B
The stories in them are priceless.
- [42:11]
C
Yeah, I can't wait to really dive into that sad, sad collection. What a joy for me. I'll be yucking it up. Oh, my goodness, no. I'm not gonna kill you for your sad sack collection. And. And you're not gonna kill me. I. I don't have a sad sex collection, so there'd be no point.
- [42:29]
B
You're safe.
- [42:30]
C
There'd be no point. I just think people should get divorced if you, you know, if it's that bad of a relationship and don't kill each other. That's my advice to couples. Dr. Anya, gonna write a book on marriage. Don't. Don't kill each other. No, I'm just kidding. I mean, it's a pretty serious issue. You're much. I mean, like, in reality, everyone's always, oh, no, Ted Bundy's gonna come to my house. No, he's not, first of all, he's dead. But second of all, you know, there's not a lot of serial killers. It's very rare. And also the people serial killers are usually going after are marginalized. People at the, at the margins of society who are struggling. So sex workers, you know, who are, or people who are drug addicted or whatnot. But your, your spouse picking a spouse, picking a long term romantic partner, those are the people that are going to kill you. So if you are with somebody who's a jerk to you, you know, that's, I'm not saying that person's a murderer, but like, you are. Like, that is more dangerous, I think, than like, you know, what people think of as being dangerous, which is strangers and you joke.
- [43:41]
B
But actually you're really, really good at giving advice.
- [43:44]
C
No, I'm not.
- [43:45]
B
And we should have like a segment where people like call in with their life problems. There's been a case. I'm not gonna go into specifics, but you always give people advice. I think it's the older sister in you. And there was one instance where you gave somebody advice and this person didn't take it and it significantly altered his life for the worse.
- [44:05]
C
Oh, that's, yeah, I do remember that. I mean, I could, yeah, I, I, I just say what that was. Okay, so that was, I remember when we interviewed Mitch Westerman in the Delphi case because he was, you know, his close friend and former work colleague of Andrew Baldwin in that case. And this was like before any of that insanity started. We interviewed him and he started rattling off about like, oh, all these people are interested in the case and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And like, oh my, you know, my buddy, my military buddy's already interested in the case. And, and I said to him, I remember turning to him as we, you know, we were getting off the elevators and turning to him and being like, just, you know, just be aware. Like people, you know, if they hear your name on our episode, they might be trying to pump you for information. Just be like, be aware of that situation and just be cautious because a lot of people are really obsessed with
- [44:52]
B
this case and, and don't share a lot of stuff.
- [44:55]
C
And you know, like, I just, I mean, I, I wasn't telling him what to do. I just wanted him to be aware. So I'm.
- [44:59]
B
Later he shares crime scene photos.
- [45:01]
C
Later he leaked crime scene photos to the Internet and that was a whole disaster and resulted in somebody, you know, dying by suicide, literally. And, you know, just a horrible situation. So it was like, yeah, people should take my advice. I know what I'm talking about with true crime. Maybe not everything else, but, you know,
- [45:18]
B
So I think I'm trying to be helpful. We should have, like, a segment, Cain's Councils.
- [45:24]
C
You're really, like, losing control of your mic over there. Every time I turn around, it's spinning. It's spinning around. I don't know what's going on.
- [45:32]
B
My microphone has been possessed by the devil. I'm working on it. It's like a Linda Blair's old microphone.
- [45:39]
C
We need to call some priests. I don't know what's happening, but, yeah, Cain's Councils.
- [45:45]
B
No, that should be a new segment on the show.
- [45:48]
C
No one wants to hear that, like. And I can tell the listeners are nodding along.
- [45:55]
B
See, I enjoyed. Because I always find your advice to be insightful and fascinating.
- [46:00]
C
Well, I mean, I'm not gonna be able to give advice on every situation because I haven't really. You know, there's certain some things that are kind of beyond me. Like, I haven't experienced it. I don't know. I just like. No, let's just move on. What are we talking about? Let's talk about this murder.
- [46:15]
B
Okay. Do it. Back to New York.
- [46:19]
C
Oh, okay. So you're done with Corey Richards. Yeah, I mean, just. I'm just curious, like, before we go to New York, is your feeling from just what you read, which is media reports, which we know is, you know, that's limited compared to the record in the case, do you feel like it's a strong case presented by the Utah. By the state of Utah?
- [46:39]
B
It feels. It feels like it's a strong case.
- [46:41]
C
Okay, so you don't feel like it's, you know, just overly, overly weak. Okay, interesting.
- [46:46]
B
And it's interesting. I think one of the defense attorneys is also involved in the Charlie Kirk trial.
- [46:52]
C
Okay.
- [46:52]
B
So it'd be an interesting look at her style.
- [46:55]
C
But you know what? That makes sense because if she is a highly regarded Utah defense attorney, it would make sense that they were kind of seeking her out for some of the higher profile cases.
- [47:04]
B
Yeah. Now that we've gotten the most recent Templeton Kenzo episodes out, I'm starting to prepare for a couple of Charlie Kirk episodes.
- [47:12]
C
Okay, that'll be interesting. So now we're going to New York, my home state, the Empire State, as
- [47:18]
B
you mentioned, of the North Atlantic.
- [47:20]
C
No, there's no geographic qualifiers going on. It is just the Empire State.
- [47:26]
B
It's also known as the Hoosier State of the East.
- [47:30]
C
No. God. What are you doing?
- [47:36]
B
It's the Hoosier, State of the East. So tell us.
- [47:39]
C
No one can see it, but I'm holding my head in my hands. So, yeah. Gosh. So this is my source for this is cnn. And thanks to the listener who recommended this. We talked a lot about a recent case I think you selected that got into prosecutors using rap lyrics in order to make a case against somebody. And you and I both expressed pretty strong discomfort with that. The reason being that, like, first of all, I don't really like the idea of chilling artistic work. Right. And, you know, I feel like also there's some disturbing elements to this, where rap is a musical genre that, you know, a lot of people enjoy, but it's predominantly typically associated with the African American community in the United States. And, you know, why is such scrutiny being put on, you know, lyrics that could be, like, you know, perceived as threatening, but just maybe, I don't know, maybe just a song. And again, I can think of a lot of, you know, classic rock songs that are extremely sexually aggressive, but I would certainly not want anyone convicting the singer of rape based. Based on that.
- [48:46]
B
And I'll make an obvious point. There's a whole genre of songs in American history called murder ballads in which people sing songs about murder, killing women and things like that. Some of these songs have been performed by people like Johnny Cash, and no one is saying, oh, Johnny Cash sung this song about killing a woman. He must be guilty of murder.
- [49:10]
C
I think we should be launching an investigation into Taylor Swift and Haim for no Body, no Crime. That's also a murder ballad. But I mean, like, in all seriousness, you know, that. That's silly. That's not concrete evidence in my mind. That being said, where I'm less uncomfortable is if you have a robust case against somebody and they were potentially stupid enough to put detailed lyrics that match a crime in their rap lyrics, and you're using that as more of a garnish rather than the. The steak of the meal. Does that. Does that make sense?
- [49:53]
B
Yes, sir.
- [49:54]
C
Like, I mean, I don't mind you saying, well, this is all the. The cell phone and this and that and all these witnesses, and they also wrote this rap song or whatever kind of song or poem or whatever that got into, you know, like, stuff that matches the crime. I. I don't. I don't mind that so much because then it's not, like, the predominant thing, but this case sort of involves something like that, so. March 17, 2021. This takes place in New York's Long island in the town of Elmont, and a young 21 year old woman who's a student at Hofstra University. Her name is Nafia Ikram. I'm so sorry if I' saying her name wrong. She is getting out of her car in the driveway of her home. She's just clocked out of work at a pharmacy and someone rushes behind her and splashes her in the face with sulfuric acid. Her face, neck, chest are really severely burned. She loses sight in her right eye and it's a horrible, horrible impact on this young woman. It's horrible. The guy is caught on surveillance footage, but it's extremely grainy. It basically shows a guy in a black hooded sweatshirt and gloves and I think you know very little else. And he flees in a red Nissan Altima. But they're not. Here's the thing with surveillance footage. I think we all have this perception of like, every crime should be solved immediately by surveillance footage, because we see that happen so often. A heinous thing happens and then boom. Surveillance surveillance footage. We got him. And that's wonderful. Not all surveillance footage is good enough to lock down an individual suspect right away. That's unfortunately the reality. Sometimes things are blurry. Something's too far away. It's just not enough. But it was a clue, at least. And on February 10, 2026, prosecutors and police in Nassau County, New York did announce an arrest in this case. The office of the Nassau County District Attorney is led by Ann T. Donnelly, the District Attorney there, and she did a whole press conference. So Nassau county police got a tip about a possible suspect. So this was actually a tipster coming forward with information years later. And that person is going to apparently receive the fifty thousand dollar Crime Stoppers reward for this. But we don't know anything else about that tipster or what's going on with that. But that's, that's where things stand. The tipster implicated a man named Terrell Campbell. Campbell was a guy who worked in flower delivery, and he was an aspiring rapper living in Brooklyn, New York. And so Nassau county learns about him. They team up with the New York City Police Department and they go to his address and what do they find parked outside, there's and red Nissan Altima. So, okay, already he's looking better for this. They find out that he also had access to a red 2015 Nissan Altima in 2021, which had been registered to a relative. So from there they start really digging into this guy because even though this is good and they have a tip, they have this and that, they need more than that. So they. They get an affidavit, they get his search history, and what do they find? Minutes after the attack took place in 2021, they find that he searched, quote, how do I remove sulfuric acid from my car's fabric? Okay. Yeah. So, you know, pretty. Pretty good case against him right now. He's been charged with several counts, including assault, criminal possession of a weapon, unlawful possession of noxious material. He's so far pled guilty. He's being held without bail. Now, Nafia Incrum has talked about this publicly, and she says she doesn't know Campbell. He's a stranger to her. So there's a possibility, and she thinks this is possible, and so do prosecutors and police, that Campbell is merely a hitman and that someone hired him to do this to this young woman, and she, the victim said, quote, or the survivor, rather, said, quote, I hope that things come to light. The fact I don't even know this individual makes me question who else could possibly be involved. That's what she told CNN's affiliate. But one thing that we get back to the rap lyrics about is that Donnelly talked about this in the press conference that he released a song in, in February. So I found it on SoundCloud. In February 27, 2023, he released a song called Obsidian that Donnelly characterized as including details of the crime. So let's. Let me read the lyrics and we can talk about whether we think that's fair or not. His rap name was Young based Prince. And just as a art, you know, an artistic side of things, I didn't. I didn't care for this song. I thought it stunk, and I didn't like his style. But that's just me. That's all subjective. This was the lyrics that the Obsidian song had that seemed to most closely mirror what happened to Ms. Ikram. Quote, on the street in the night, like a hitman assassin trying to run up and have your face burning in acid. End quote. Yeah, that sounds pretty similar to what happened. Would I. Would I convict someone based on that alone? No. Do I think based on all the other stuff, is it fair to, like, mention that? Probably. What do you think?
- [55:44]
B
Yeah, it might give some context.
- [55:46]
C
But the hitman assassin thing, though, it does kind of like, I wonder if someone did hire this guy, because obviously a hitman doesn't have a personal problem with their target. A hitman is doing it on behalf of someone else. So what I hope for is that in order for this survivor to get answers, in order for everyone to get answers, I hope that Campbell is Basically willing to implicate in order, you know, whether that's in exchange for some kind of plea agreement or whatnot. I, I hope that he's able to implicate. If someone asked him to do this, and this was just not him randomly targeting someone, I hope he's able to implicate whoever arranged this. Because this kind of attack is just so horrible and it's, you know, it's affected this young woman's life totally needlessly. And it, you know, I hope, I hope that person ends up, you know, if there is a person behind Campbell, I hope that person ends up being held accountable for what happened as well. But I agree, to me, it's not, it's not a. It's not like, oh, only the killer would have, only the criminal would have known this. It's not enough for that. It's interesting, but it's not. It seems like they have a lot of evidence that is better than that. So
- [56:58]
B
do you want to make a quick promotional announcement and then we can start talking about the story?
- [57:04]
C
Yeah, sure. So let's see. I. We have an upcoming. We have a couple of upcoming things I think to announce. One is an event we're doing in March in Ohio. Our first Ohio event is going to be on Thursday, March 12, 2026, in Marion, Ohio, at the Marion Library at 6:30pm Go to our website@murdersheetpodcast.com events and click on get more information here next to that event. And, you know, it'll tell you if there's tickets or instructions or whatever. Hope to see some of you there. We're really excited for it.
- [57:41]
B
Do we need to get tickets? Because I don't think we've gotten tickets for it.
- [57:45]
C
We're going to be the speakers, Kevin,
- [57:47]
B
so we don't need to worry about tickets. Okay, that's a little off my mind.
- [57:51]
C
And in addition to that, we're going to be at CrimeCon 2026 in Las Vegas from May 29 to May 31. And if you want to come, we'd love to see you. And Vegas is super fun. And we encourage you to use code murder sheet to get 10% off your standard Crimecon badges.
- [58:11]
B
And I'm excited, of course. You know, I was very upset because the Koch Museum that used to be in Vegas, that's gone. That's history. That's a memory. I've mourned it. I've moved on. But I'm ordinarily a fish sandwich guy, but in Vegas, they have an in N out, which is supposed to be really great burgers. Never been to an In N Out. Always wanted to go to In N Out. I believe there's an In N Out in Vegas, and I plan to eat all my meals there.
- [58:37]
C
Yeah, I'm glad you said that, because I was gonna call you out for that if you didn't say that, because. Yeah, he turns to me and he's like, oh, I'll just eat all my food there. And I was like, this is what I have to deal with. You're gonna be running around the inn and out. I don't even know if you're gonna like it. I mean, it's got a great reputation, so maybe you will. But you're so persnickety.
- [58:57]
B
So all my dinner, all my meal plans, done. I don't have to worry about finding a place to eat or what's on the menu. All that's been settled months in advance. You're welcome.
- [59:08]
C
You're. Why are you. Well, we really look forward to seeing you. There's gonna be some wonderful different shows there. There's gonna be some great, you know, speakers there, and I really hope some of you can make it because it'd be great to meet you in person and you should come up to our table and hang out with us and say hi. And we're just really delighted to be going back, thanks to CrimeCon.
- [59:32]
B
So let's talk about what happened last week. And like so many stories we talk about, it's gonna talk out, start out being very serious, and then ends up with us being awkward. We've talked a lot, obviously, as you all know, about the Delphi murders. Wrote a book about it of Abby and Libby. That's always a case that's very close to our hearts. And one thing to remember, not just about this murder case, but all murder cases, is that it can be. The story doesn't end for the people involved. And especially if you lose someone you love to murder, you want to try to figure out some way to keep their memory alive, some way for them to continue to have an impact. So that. Yeah, that's just very, very important. And we focus on, oh, let's catch the killer, or there's a trial, he's convicted. That doesn't end the story for the people in it. And that's important to remember. And so last week, the Indiana Senate announced a plan where there was going to be a resolution read on the floor of the Indiana Senate honoring Abby and Libby. And also that time a plan was announced at a bridge in Carroll county is going to be named in their memory. And so this obviously is not something you could do a whole podcast episode about. But as we heard about this, we also heard that a number of people involved in the case, a number of people directly connected to Abby and Libby, people who worked to get justice for them, they were going to be there to watch this resolution be read. And we want to do our part to remember Abby and Libby. And so we decided to go down to the Senate to watch this happen. And we got there, I think, about 20 minutes before it was scheduled to occur. And then, as things so often happen in government, it got delayed. So I think it was like an hour, hour and a half late. And when we arrive, the families were there. Sheriff Liggett was there. Former Superintendent Doug Carter was there. Jerry Holman was there. Jay Harper was there. So many people connected to this case, and they were kind of gathered in, like, a little atrium area. And so we were talking with them and about what this meant and about their lives and the importance of keeping the memories of Abby and Libby alive. And this is. That was very meaningful.
- [62:45]
C
Yeah, it was meaningful to me, too.
- [62:50]
B
Our impression was that when it was time for this to happen, we would all be led up into the gallery and be able to watch this from up there. And so this is where it gets awkward on our part. They say, okay, it's time. And this whole group, including us, is led to a door. And as we approach this door, we realize, to our horror that this door is to the floor of the Senate, and that this group of people is going to not be watching from the gallery. They're going to be standing by the speaker at the rostrum as this is read. And we have so much respect and admiration for all these people, and we recognize it would be very, very wrong.
- [63:43]
C
Yeah, we're just gonna.
- [63:45]
B
Yeah.
- [63:46]
C
Hi. We didn't do anything. We're just standing here.
- [63:50]
B
If we, like, photobomb this, I think that would be deeply, deeply wrong. And I'm not speaking for what they may or may not have wanted. I'm just saying, for us personally, I think the idea of us being there with that group is deeply offensive. We don't deserve it.
- [64:10]
C
Yeah, no, we didn't. We didn't solve the case.
- [64:15]
B
So the door opens. We realize it's literally at the last minute, and there's, like, a person there, like, motioning everybody to come in, come in, come in, come in, come in. And I'm saying, we gotta go up to the gallery. He said, no, no, no, just go, go, go, go, go. And so our. Our decision then was, okay, we go out to the floor of the Senate, but we made an effort to stay at a distance from the group, a respectful distance, because we didn't think it would be appropriate for us to be included in that.
- [64:48]
C
No, I was definitely thinking like, you know, oh, go. How did we get here? But it was really nice. I thought the actual experience of being on the floor and hearing Senator Ron Alting speak about the girls was extremely meaningful to me. And I kind of. I got a little emotional. I didn't expect to, because, you know, I just didn't. But it. That was. That was nice what they said about them basically remembering their legacy and hearing all of these senators just get up and say aye to remembering them. No one said nay. It was just like. It was affirming. It was just like, yeah, these kids were special and they're being remembered and people in power here are even remembering them in this specific legislation or in the specific. You know, I don't think it's legislation. I think it's like a. More of like a resolution to commemorate them. But I just. What a lovely moment and how special for the families.
- [65:47]
B
And then someone sent us some. This was live streamed.
- [65:51]
C
Oh, yeah.
- [65:51]
B
And someone sent us some pictures of the livestream because after this happened, you know, the group leaves by another exit and we leave too, you know, again behind, and we're picked up on the live stream of leaving. And somebody sent us pictures prominently, I think, displaying my bald spot. And at one point as we were leaving, I remember looking up towards the gallery and thinking kind of ruefully, oh, that's where we should have been.
- [66:19]
C
That's where it is. The process.
- [66:21]
B
This image that someone sent us. It looks like I'm gawking like a tourist. Oh, boy. There's more than one level here. I was thinking about the gallery.
- [66:30]
C
I'm doing T. Rex arms, which means I'm feeling uncomfortable because it's like, what do I do with my hands?
- [66:36]
B
So, yeah, we shouldn't have been on the floor of the mana.
- [66:40]
C
We shouldn't do anything because this always like, we just end up. Whatever. The most awkward thing we can do and put ourselves into is what happens. It's. It's Murphy's Law. But. But with us being awkward. But.
- [66:54]
B
And again, to be clear, no one, no one in that group said, no, you shouldn't be here. You shouldn't stand with us.
- [67:00]
C
Actually, some of them were gesturing for us to come over and we were just like, no, we're hiding in the aisle.
- [67:04]
B
It just Felt really, really inappropriate. That came. That came from us. I don't think we deserve that honor.
- [67:10]
C
No, these people solved the case. I mean, you know, people criticized and loved the girls. Yeah. And love. These were family members and investigators. So, I mean, they. All the family members have just been advocating for these kids for years. I'm so glad they got that moment. And, you know, with the. With the investigators. I think a lot of these people who worked on the case, Nicholas McClelland was there, the prosecutor of Carroll county, you know, these are people who took this case to heart in a really, really meaningful way, and I'm really glad they got recognized by this situation. They deserve it. I think a lot of the. On the investigative side and on the family side, people really. I would say criticize is too mild, because I think everyone in a public office is deserving. You know, you have to be open to criticism, but, like, slammed and smeared these people for, like, years in a really kind of insane and abusive, toxic environment. So I was glad that they got, you know, more of the positive side of. Of seeing that. To me, whenever we see these people, I. I feel like, you know, I don't. I don't. I don't act like this on the surface, but, like, I definitely have, you know, like, I. The way I am so impressed with these people. I always feel like, you know, in Arrested Development, when Lucille meets that private investigator, Jean Parmesan, she's just like, aha. That's how I feel inside. I'm like, these guys are. They got it done. You know, it was a difficult case, and they got it done. And when it came to, you know, Kathy Schenk being amazing and finding that. That crucial lead, everything snapped into place, and they got it done. And there were a lot of setbacks and a lot of problems with investigation, and certainly we went into that in detail in the book. But, like, ultimately, that core group of people I found so impressive because they. They put together a strong case, and they got this guy convicted, and they got him off the street so he can't do this to anybody else. And I'm grateful to them for doing that, because I feel like it was. It was important, and so it was important to get justice for these special girls. So I'm really pleased that the girls are getting that recognition and that the families got that moment and that the investigators also got that moment.
- [69:23]
B
And I'm also very pleased that things continue to happen. Like, as I mentioned, a bridge is going to be renamed.
- [69:29]
C
Yeah, I know. I love that. I'm like, Just the girl should be remembered well beyond what happened to them, and that's a way for that to happen. You know, I hope that the name of their murderer fades from existence eventually, and people just forget that sad, pathetic loser and all the sad, pathetic losers who want to celebrate him. I want them. I want people to remember Abby and Libby because they are what matter. You know, they. They matter. Their families matter. Getting justice for them mattered. Nothing else matters at this point. You know, we'll certainly continue to cover the case whenever stuff comes up, but as far as, like, you know, all this other nonsense is just nonsense, but. Yeah, no, it was. It was. It was a nice moment. As. As awkward as you and I are, it was. It was still nice. I was like, oh. It was like a. You know, all these. It was just weird. Like, you know, you kind of are covering the case, and you're seeing all these people all over the Carroll County Courthouse like, every day for a month. And then we saw them all. Not all of them, but we saw a lot of them again in one place. And it was just like, whoa, flashbacks.
- [70:34]
B
Very strange and inappropriate for us to be on the floor of the Indiana.
- [70:38]
C
I mean, we didn't try to do that. Like, we. We just didn't know what was happening. I thought we were going up to the gallery, too, but, you know, we. I think we staved off looking too awkward by hiding in the aisles. Sure. The senators were like, who are these people? What's going on over there? Oh, man. Anyways, what else is that? Is that it? Do we have any Nick updates? Nick. Not Nick. Art. Dog.
- [71:04]
B
Yeah, I was. I was.
- [71:05]
C
And we didn't tell Nicholas.
- [71:07]
B
I was curious. Is Anya going to tell Nicholas McLeland that we have a dog named Nick, but it's not named after him?
- [71:13]
C
I was going to, but then he kind of, like, ran off at the end and, you know, like, I was just like, oh, man. You know, I think we told literally everybody else. I think I was basically just showing pictures of Nick to everybody and. And being an embarrassing dog.
- [71:26]
B
Mom, you were stopping passerby, who we didn't know had nothing to do with the case.
- [71:31]
C
These people don't know us. We're just grabbing them and stopping them. And it was nice. We met. We met a reader of the book there, so it was really nice to meet her, and it was nice to kind of interact with people. It's such a beautiful building, too. I think it's always cool to be in the State House. But, yeah, I. You know, I don't we think he was unfortunately one of the only person, like, we did not tell, but I don't know.
- [71:57]
B
Gosh, I wonder why that was.
- [72:00]
C
I. Hey, we named our really bad dog after you. No, I'm just kidding. We didn't name it after Nicholas McLellan. We named it after Nick Charles from the Thin man series.
- [72:08]
B
And he was kind of named Nick when we got him.
- [72:10]
C
He was already kind of named Nick when we got him. But, you know, I. I'm just. I'm just embarrassed, you know? Yeah, Nick's been, Nick's been good. He's. He's. He's been. He's been trying so hard to be a gentleman and we really appreciate him for that. What's he doing right now?
- [72:29]
B
He's sleeping comfortably.
- [72:30]
C
Oh, what a little sweetie. He's only a year and a half, so, you know, he's basically still puppy brained. We talked with a lady who's kind of helping to, you know, train him a bit and, you know, using the positive reinforcement, using kind of like, you know, encouraging. He's so.
- [72:45]
B
And when we were at the place where he's trained, somebody else who works there came by to get some dogs to work with us. Hey, I know you guys, like, now,
- [72:52]
C
you know, our dog's really out of control. No, it was really nice to meet her too. And, and it was one of those things, though. They're like, you know, they're like, yeah, he's kind of low key, bullying you guys, apparently. Like, he's basically manipulating us in a lot of ways. So we're trying to unlearn that. But I think for the most part, he is trying to be a gentleman and a scholar and that's all we can ask.
- [73:14]
B
And, you know, all we can ask.
- [73:16]
C
And we're trying to give him even more structure so he can make better choice, as they say. So anyways, thank you all so much for listening. If you ever have a case you want us to cover on the Cheat Sheet, send us an email@murdersheetmail.com and, you know, stay, Stay in touch. And I guess that's kind of it. What are you laughing at?
- [73:39]
B
Well, I mean, that just sounded very. I guess that's it.
- [73:43]
C
I guess that's.
- [73:44]
B
Isn't that how Walter Cronkite used to sign off to CBS Evening News? He'd give you the news of the day, then look at the camera and say, well, I guess that's it. And then the music would start to play.
- [73:54]
C
Would he cough over the music?
- [73:59]
B
Well, let's do that. I'll do that and then have your hand over the button. Well, I guess that's it. Thanks so much for listening to the Murder Sheet. If you have a tip concerning one of the cases we cover, please email us at Murder Sheet. If you have actionable information about an unsolved crime, please report it to the appropriate authorities.
- [74:26]
C
If you're interested in joining our Patreon, that's available at www.patreon.com murdersheet. If you want to tip us a bit of money for records requests, you can do so at www. Buymeacoffee.com murdersheet. We very much appreciate any support.
- [74:49]
B
Special thanks to Kevin Tyler Greenlee, who composed the music for the Murder Sheet and who you can find on the web@kevintg.com if you're looking to talk with
- [75:01]
C
other listeners about a case we've covered, you can join the Murder Sheet Discussion group on Facebook. We mostly focus our time on research and reporting, so we're not on social media much. We do try to check our email account, but we ask for patience as we often receive a lot of messages. Thanks again for listening.