The Cheat Sheet: Angels and Acquittals

Summary

Murder Sheet: The Cheat Sheet – "Angels and Acquittals"
Release Date: May 9, 2025
Hosts: Áine Cain (Journalist) and Kevin Greenlee (Attorney)

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Introduction

In this episode of Murder Sheet, hosts Áine Cain and Kevin Greenlee delve into a series of compelling true crime cases from various locations, analyzing recent developments, legal implications, and the human stories behind each incident. The episode, titled "Angels and Acquittals," navigates through high-profile acquittals, long-standing cold cases, and tragic events involving law enforcement, providing listeners with in-depth coverage and thoughtful commentary.

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Indiana Case: The Acquittal of Flint Farmer in the Karina McClurkin Murder

The episode opens with a discussion on the shocking acquittal of Flint Farmer for the 2016 murder of 18-year-old Karina McClurkin in Kokomo, Indiana. Despite substantial evidence, including a confession from Farmer’s daughter and eyewitness testimonies, the jury found him not guilty after only seven hours of deliberation spread over two days.

"The jury thought differently. They did not think that this was enough evidence."
— Áine Cain (07:33)

Kevin Greenlee reflects on the rarity of such verdicts, emphasizing the strength typically inherent in prosecutorial cases:

"It's surprising when they file something in such a high-profile case and then it goes this way."
— Kevin Greenlee (08:19)

The hosts express sympathy for McClurkin’s family and discuss the legal ramifications, including obstruction of justice charges against Farmer, highlighting the principle of double jeopardy which prevents him from being retried for the same crime.

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Portugal Case: Updates on Madeline McCann

Shifting focus to an international case, the hosts revisit the unresolved disappearance of three-year-old Madeline McCann from Portugal in 2007. Recent developments suggest that a suspect, Christian Brückner, may be linked to her disappearance after police discovered incriminating evidence on his computer hard drive.

"This is very sad news. They also found on the hard drive him chatting with other pedophiles."
— Kevin Greenlee (12:22)

Áine Cain adds her personal connection to the case, recounting how it captivated her from a young age and acknowledging the ongoing pain for Madeline’s family.

The duo discusses the implications of Brückner's statements and the challenges law enforcement faces in closing such a high-profile case.

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Washington State Case: The Unsolved Murder of Patrick Kress

Next, Áine Cain explores the cold case of 13-year-old Patrick Kress, who was brutally beaten to death in Kirkland, Washington, in 1983. Despite initial rumors and unverified claims from local teenagers, the case remains unsolved.

"There's a $5,000 reward and you can go to the Crime Stoppers of Puget Sound."
— Kevin Greenlee (18:58)

The hosts encourage listeners with any information to come forward, emphasizing the importance of community involvement in resolving cold cases.

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Colorado Case: The Controversial Death of Matthew Hire

In Colorado, Áine Cain and Kevin Greenlee dissect the contentious case of Matthew Hire's death at the hands of Donald Harris. Harris claims the incident was a tragic accident during a moment of personal crisis, asserting that Hire inadvertently caused his fatal shooting while Harris was preparing to commit suicide.

"This story made me think of reasonable doubt... maybe we can do a whole episode on reasonable doubt."
— Kevin Greenlee (22:41)

The hosts critically evaluate Harris’s narrative, questioning the plausibility of his account and highlighting inconsistencies that suggest potential culpability beyond accident.

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Louisiana Case: The Tragic Death Linked to an American Idol Contestant's Friend

The episode also covers a heartbreaking incident in Louisiana involving Tyquell Xanders, whose car theft led to a deadly police chase resulting in the deaths of two teenage girls on New Year's Eve 2022. The incident profoundly affected American Idol contestant John Foster, inspiring his song "Tell That Angel I Love Her," dedicated to his late friend Maggie Dunn.

"Prosecutors noted that he was driving like close to 90 miles an hour, never hitting the brakes."
— Áine Cain (37:32)

The discussion underscores the delicate balance law enforcement must maintain between pursuing suspects and ensuring public safety, critiquing the aggressive tactics that may lead to unintended fatalities.

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Ohio Case: The Vicious Killing of Deputy Henderson by Ryan Hinton

Áine Cain introduces the harrowing case from Cincinnati, Ohio, where 18-year-old Ryan Hinton fatally shot Special Deputy Larry Henderson after witnessing Henderson co-viewing body camera footage of Hinton’s son being killed by police.

"If there's a story like this is true, if you accidentally killed someone while you were about to kill yourself... that's a ploy for sympathy."
— Áine Cain (30:37)

The tragic event raises serious questions about the impact of police actions on individuals and communities, as well as the potential for retaliatory violence against law enforcement officers. The hosts express deep sorrow over the escalation of violence and the personal toll on all parties involved.

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Corrections and Clarifications: Michigan Supreme Court Ruling on Sentencing

Towards the end of the episode, Áine Cain and Kevin Greenlee address listener feedback regarding a previous discussion on the Michigan Supreme Court's ruling, which prohibits the automatic sentencing of individuals below a certain age to life without parole. They clarify inaccuracies, noting that Michigan judges are elected and that the ruling requires prosecutors to review past cases to determine eligibility for parole.

"If you have a confession in a case, but you don't have any evidence to back it up, then it's just a story."
— Kevin Greenlee (09:25)

The conversation reflects on the complexities of implementing such legal changes, emphasizing the need for legislative action and adequate resources to manage the retroactive review of sentences.

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Conclusion

In "Angels and Acquittals," Áine Cain and Kevin Greenlee adeptly navigate a multitude of true crime narratives, offering insightful analysis and empathetic perspectives. The episode underscores the intricate interplay between justice, evidence, and human emotion, urging listeners to consider the broader implications of each case.

Notable Quotes with Timestamps

• "The jury thought differently. They did not think that this was enough evidence."
  — Áine Cain (07:33)

• "It's surprising when they file something in such a high-profile case and then it goes this way."
  — Kevin Greenlee (08:19)

• "We respect jurors."
  — Kevin Greenlee (09:00)

• "This is very sad news. They also found on the hard drive him chatting with other pedophiles."
  — Kevin Greenlee (12:22)

• "We need to be putting more money into cold cases as a society. I think it's really important and I think that's something that shouldn't be controversial."
  — Kevin Greenlee (18:58)

• "This story made me think of reasonable doubt... maybe we can do a whole episode on reasonable doubt."
  — Kevin Greenlee (22:41)

• "If a story like this is true, if you accidentally killed someone while you were about to kill yourself... that's a ploy for sympathy."
  — Áine Cain (30:37)

• "If you have a confession in a case, but you don't have any evidence to back it up, then it's just a story."
  — Kevin Greenlee (09:25)

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Support and Further Engagement

Listeners are encouraged to support Murder Sheet through Patreon and BuyMeACoffee, join discussions on Facebook, and stay connected via the hosts' official channels for updates on upcoming episodes and live events.

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This summary was crafted to provide a comprehensive overview of the "Angels and Acquittals" episode of Murder Sheet, capturing the essence of each discussed case and the hosts' analytical insights.

Transcript

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[Kevin Greenlee]

Is it our backyard because we live there? Isn't it like our front yard?

[Anya Cain]

Our backyard is in. It's our backyard. It's our front yard. It's our everything. I don't know. I'm just talking.

[Kevin Greenlee]

You're like a great tourist.

[Anya Cain]

I'm very tired.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Indiana is my everything.

[Anya Cain]

Indiana's my everything.

[Kevin Greenlee]

What am I, chopped liver?

[Anya Cain]

Well, you're part of the whole Indiana package, right? Is that. Aren't you why I'm here?

[Kevin Greenlee]

I thought you wanted people to come to Indiana. I'm part of the Indiana package.

[Anya Cain]

You have to hang out with Kevin all day if you come to Indiana. Sorry, tourists. No, it's a treat. It's your privilege to hang out with this man.

[Kevin Greenlee]

So I digress.

[Anya Cain]

Well, there. And let's. Let's do this. My name is Anya Cain.

[Kevin Greenlee]

I'm a journalist And I'm Kevin Greenlee. I'm an attorney.

[Anya Cain]

And this is the Murder Sheet.

[Kevin Greenlee]

We're a true crime podcast focused on original reporting, interviews and deep dives into murder cases. We're the Murder Sheet and this is the cheat sheet.

[Anya Cain]

Angels and acquittals. It. Well, I think I'll start out with the Indiana case and I believe this is one of those cases that we did cover either on a cheat sheet or in some capacity in the past. And it's a pretty surprising story out of Kokomo, Indiana, which is a city to our north. We're in the Indianapolis area. So Kokomo is a city and it's, it's the, the, the kind of big case that was happening up there was the murder of Karina McClurkin. She was an 18 year old young lady who was, was killed in 2016. And my source for this news is the Kokomo Tribune. It has this article by Tyler Juranovich, has a ton of excell and I'm going to include a link in our show notes. I ask you please go give them a click. Support local journalism. Places like the Kokomo Tribune are really precious and important for understanding what's going on on the ground. So I don't want to just cannibalize this article. I'm just going to give you an overview and then you can check them out and get even more details. But in the McClurkin case, a man named Flint Farmer was charged with her murder. He was arrested, this went to trial and he was just acquitted. You don't always really see that, really. I mean, oftentimes prosecutors offices, in this case, the Howard County Prosecutor's office, oftentimes they're bringing those really strong cases to the jury, especially in a murder trial. He was acquitted after seven hours of deliberation across two days. So it doesn't even sound like they took that long to do this.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Yeah, it's really interesting. I know a lot of people seem to be surprised by it. I admit I didn't follow this case particularly closely. It's always surprising because most criminal trials frankly end in conviction and there's no sinister or conspiratorial reason for that. It's because prosecutors get to pick the cases they file. And if they think, oh, this isn't a case, I can prove this is a weak case, this is a 50, 50 case, or what have you, they're probably not going to file it. So the reason why prosecutors win most of their cases is they're filing their strongest cases. And so it's surprising when they file something in such a high profile case and then it goes this way.

[Anya Cain]

Yeah.

[Kevin Greenlee]

I'm not super familiar with the evidence in this case, so I can't make any more informed comment than that.

[Anya Cain]

Well, I mean, it's interesting. His daughter testified that he told her that he killed McClurkin after some sort of dispute over a theft. And when she tried to get him to say that while recording it, he would not. But the fact that his own daughter testified against him is interesting, but the jury thought differently. They did not think that this was enough evidence. And they. Yeah, I don't, I'm not, I'm not an expert on this case either, so. Not going to really weigh in on, you know, what, what, what the jury's decision was. At the end of the day, we kind of respect jurors.

[Kevin Greenlee]

We respect jurors.

[Anya Cain]

That's the way our system works.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Yeah.

[Anya Cain]

So.

[Kevin Greenlee]

So I accept the verdict. When you talk about him supposedly making a confession to his daughter, my mind always goes back in instances like this to something that Bill Dalton of the Indiana State Police, I once heard him say. He said that if you have a confession in a case, but you don't have any evidence to back it up, then it's just a story.

[Anya Cain]

Yeah. I think there was at least one witness who also testified that Farmer was requesting help burying the body and that they did so together. It seemed like there's at least a couple of different people who are coming forward saying, we had these interactions, this is what happened. But at the end of the day, I don't, I don't know how this was presented. I don't know what the defense said. So it's very, it's very interesting. But I imagine that the McClurkin family and their loved ones are devastated over this decision. And I can imagine that. And I. It's just an interesting, interesting development. But I know he is facing obstruction of justice charges now because he essentially instructed people in his life to hinder the investigation. So, you know, there might be something else coming up for Flint Farmer, but certainly not murder charges and he cannot be charged again. Obviously, double jeopardy sets in. He was acquitted. They could find him on videotape doing it now. He will not be charged again for the murder.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Yeah, it's a principle of double jeopardy. You can't be charged with the same crime if you've been acquitted of it. We don't want to have a situation where the government can have a lot of trial runs, trial runs for trials. I guess you don't Want them just to keep on putting a person on trial until they get the verdict they want? No, that's not the way the system works. There are so many advantages that the state has when they put someone on trial that we really try to make an effort to level the playing field to some extent. And that's one of the ways they do it.

[Anya Cain]

Absolutely. So, yeah, check out this Kokomo Tribune article. Lots of great details, lots of interesting details. Some quotes from the victim's family. And that's kind of the Kokomo case I wanted to talk about. That's the acquittal. So I think now we're going abroad to Portugal.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Going abroad to Portugal. And my source for this was the New York Post. There is tragic story that has been around for nearly 20 years. I think at this point that's the story of Madeline McCann or McCann, I always say McCann. She went missing back, I believe in 2007. She was three years old. I think that was probably before your time, Anya. Following true crime cases. I remember following the case online at the time and it was a different true crime world back then. Very different from what we have now. I remember one of my primary sources for true crime news back then was a blog by a guy named Steve Huff. And he was, he'd always cover crime stories like this very, very well. I missed that blog. But in any case, for the record.

[Anya Cain]

I followed this case when I was, when I was young because it was really, it was, I remember it was all over the tabloids. It was all over everything. And it gripped me because, I mean, it was just a very sad story and this cute little three year old girls and all these pictures and you're just like, what happened to her? And there's, you know, different schools of thought.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Different schools of thought. There have been some developments recently reported. A person who's been identified as the prime suspect in the case is a man named Christian Bruckner. And now we are learning that police found a computer hard drive. I, I guess it is. And there is evidence on that computer hard drive which makes them believe that Port Madeline has passed away. And they haven't really given any details or elaborated beyond that. And due to the sensitivity of the subject, I'm also inclined not to speculate. But when you, you think about evidence that could be on a hard drive that would lead a person to make a conclusion that someone is dead, I'm sure our minds go in certain directions. This, this is very sad news. They also found on the hard drive, him chatting Mr. Bruckner chatting with other pedophiles. And apparently at one point he wrote that he, quote, wanted to capture something small and use it for days. So this is a monstrous individual.

[Anya Cain]

Yeah, I. Pedophiles who are. Yeah, just, I mean, no part. No part in society. I don't. I like to think of myself as a civilized person when it comes to people who hurt kids like that. Like, mm, not so much. But I won't, I won't indulge the rage. Anya, today. It makes me sick is. I mean, like, have murder charges. I mean, like, I don't think there's been like a lot of. I know there's been developments with him, but I don't feel like there's been a lot of like, okay, we're gonna put him in on trial for murdering her now. I mean, what's the status of this?

[Kevin Greenlee]

He's been named as a suspect, but he has not been formally charged.

[Anya Cain]

Whatever they have cannot be that explosive. I'm sorry, Because I think if. I'm not saying it's not suggestive or interesting or important, but I'm saying that like, it can't be as explosive as something, because then I would imagine there would be charges. Right, right. If there's conclusive, concrete proof of something, I would imagine charges. So I imagine whatever this is is something that's either corroborating something or is just suggestive. A lot of speculation in that case about Kate and Jerry McCann, who were Madelyn's parents, sort of leaving her in this Portuguese hotel room and sort of things like that while on vacation, and people saying they're the suspects and they lied. And I know there's been like a lot of back and forth. I don't feel it's been so long since this is a case I looked at. I don't feel well versed in any of that. But obviously, I mean, this kind of nightmarish scenario, if that's what happened to her, then that' really horrible. I mean, no matter what happened, it's horrible. But that's a really scary thought.

[Kevin Greenlee]

It's really a scary thought.

[Anya Cain]

All right, so moving on to Washington.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Moving on.

[Anya Cain]

So going to Washington State. This is another case, unfortunately involving a child. Source for this is KOMO News and I also accessed Daily Herald of Everett, Washington, which was via newspapers.com, um, so April 30, 1983, 13 year old boy named Patrick Kress is walking to. He spent the night. He had a sleepover at a friend's house in Kirkland, Washington, and he's Seen, although under what circumstances or whatnot, it's not clear to me. He's seen walking from that house down the road near 110th Place, Northeast and Northeast 140th Street. And he's supposed to meet his parents at the local Safeway. Never gets there. Several days later, he is. And this is in. In. It's called the Juanita Furze Safeway near Kingsgate area where he lived. So he searched for May 18, 1983. His body is found at a construction site near Northeast 132nd street and 116th Way. And this is just a few hundred yards away from where he stayed the night before. He had been beaten to death. This was definitely a murder. What's interesting is that in an article from the Daily Herald, it's apparent they interviewed one of the investigators on it, Mike Mellus, who was on it at least as of 23rd at 2023. Apparently, teenagers in the areas had spread rumors about the killing before the body was even found. They talked about the beating, they talked about where it happened. And in 1983, they could not track down the sources of those rumors, but they said it was coming from around people who went to. I'm going to say this wrong. Kamiakin Junior High and Juanita High School. And these people are older now. I mean, this was in the 80s. These people are grown adults. They probably have kids of their own. I would really hope if anyone knows anything, now's the time to, you know, like, lives have changed since then. I would hope loyalties and, you know, people would have matured and whatnot. So, I mean, I hope if anyone's listening to this and they know someone in that area, maybe they spread the word, maybe they share this episode, maybe they talk about this and maybe we can get some memories jogging. Also, it doesn't even have to be. Someone knows something directly. They could have just seen something that seemed weird, but they didn't connect it at the time. So, you know, anyways, one of the weird things in this, in this newspaper article, though, that I read, which was from 2008 and was written by Diana Heffley, they this, the, this detective finds in the police file the following note and no police report on it. They have no idea what this is referring to. They have no idea why it's in the police file. Quote to Michelle from Kim, it's important. It's a slight possibility. The police don't know yet, so don't tell because that might be wrong. Wrong What? What? I mean, okay, well, like, that's Bizarre. So anyways, these days we're all vulnerable to surveillance and data breaches. Delete Me is a service that lets you remove your personal data online and it's easy, quick and safe.

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[Kevin Greenlee]

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[Kevin Greenlee]

Okay. We're just zipping along. The next case is in Colorado. My source for this is Colorado communitymedia.com and this case is maybe you'll understand why in a few minutes. This case made me think, think of reasonable doubt. And it occurs to me that maybe at some point we can even do a whole episode on reasonable doubt because I think it's something that is a lot of people don't really fully understand exactly what it means. And frankly, often lawyers haven't done a good job of articulating what it means to people. It's something that's very hard to explain and understand. And it's not like there's a thermometer that you can take and you can poke it in a folder full of evidence and have it tell you whether or not it reaches reasonable doubt or not.

[Anya Cain]

Well, also, frankly, when I see some of the discourse about reasonable doubt online, I think it kind of helps if you have reasonable people discussing it because some people seem to think that any random thought that pops into their head is reasonable. And most of those times those are pretty unreasonable people.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Well, maybe, maybe we should do an episode on it. And while I'm saying that if people. If there's other things related to the law or something that you think would be useful to have us talk about, please let us know. So this case. This is a case, as I say, out of Colorado.

[Anya Cain]

Colorado.

[Kevin Greenlee]

I'm very tired. We're recording this on Thursday. We got up early for us to talk about Karen Reed case.

[Anya Cain]

Yeah. On Court tv. So we're like, totally, totally. Yeah. I don't know. We're just. We're a mess. It's been. It's been quite a time lately. But let's go back to your case.

[Kevin Greenlee]

This is a case involving the death of a man named Matthew Hire, who it is agreed that Mr. Heyer was shot and killed by a man named Donald Harris. The question is, was this murder or was this something else? And according to Harris, the death of Hyer was an accident, a tragic accident. Harris. According to Harris, he was sitting in the bathroom of the RV belonging to Mr. Hyer, and Harris had his gun out, and he was despondent and was preparing to kill himself when Heyer picks that moment to interrupt him. And that's when the tragedy occurs. Harris says, you know, my gun was loaded. My finger was on the trigger. This guy wants to come into the bathroom. It's a small, tight bathroom. Were trying to move around each other, and then, oops, the gun goes off, and it shoots and kills Mr. Heyer. At that point, Harris claims that he said, oh, no, this is awful. He freaks out, and he leaves, and he says his intent was to return and then possibly go ahead and kill himself. So it just occurs to me, it's worth pointing out that reasonable doubt doesn't mean that if you can concoct a wild story that implausibly explains everything, then that means, okay, you get a get out of jail free card. The story seems to me to be pretty implausible. So just based on what I've told you so far, Anya, do you agree. Do you disagree?

[Anya Cain]

Oh, I agree with you. This is ridiculous. I mean, this is, like, stupid. I'm sorry. Like. Like, no. Like, absolutely not.

[Kevin Greenlee]

And there's more details. Somebody overheard Mr. Harris talking about, you know, potentially wanting to rip off Mr. Hire. Yeah, it's just. They use drugs together. They. They. Mr. Heyer brought this RV, and Mr. Harris was virtually homeless at the time. It is also unclear how long Mr. Heyer was deceased before his body was even discovered. It just doesn't sound like something that seems the least bit plausible.

[Anya Cain]

It's not plausible. I'm sorry. That's just not. I mean, Like, I just don't. Yeah, I mean, people need to stop. Like, we need, like we, we do need to define reasonable doubt because again, like, yeah, cobbling together some story that, you know, kind of fits everything but just sounds like the most, you know, ridiculous lunacy and, you know, you've ever heard of is not. Is not reasonable doubt. And also, if there's other things that are pointing, like maybe this guy had a reason, like, you know what I mean? Like, if it's. There might be certain scenarios where somebody is suicidal, unfortunately, and is. And something happens that's bad, and maybe there's some buildup to that or some lead up, or it's in their own home and someone comes and tries to interrupt and something happens. This is a situation. It just doesn't add up. And he's taken stuff from him.

[Kevin Greenlee]

It doesn't add up. I'm gonna kill myself. Oh, I accidentally killed someone else. Well, now I'm gonna go out for a walk or something. I'm gonna leave, I'm gonna flee, but I'll come back later and kill myself. But when they arrested him, Mr. Harris had hires Jeep. He had higher cell phone. He had hire his bank cards.

[Anya Cain]

Oh, he sees a reason to live. Now all this new cool stuff, I mean, like, come on, like, it's just like a ploy for sympathy too. That's what makes it gross to me. It's like, I was so sad, but now it all worked out for me because I got this guy's Jeep. I mean, like, I. I don't know, it's just, it's. I mean, they're. I mean, what it banks on. What it banks on is someone on the jury being not super good at critical thinking, I guess, which is not always a bad bet, frankly. I mean, that can happen, but I don't think it gets you to an acquittal most of the time.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Most of the time it doesn't. The jury is currently deliberating in this case, so hopefully I haven't jumped the gun by saying when I think about it.

[Anya Cain]

But May 8, right now it's May 8. So they've just started deliberating.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Yeah.

[Anya Cain]

And, you know, we'll see. I don't know. I mean, listen, I try not to be too hard on a crazy story because sometimes those are true and sometimes the evidence backs up something. That's wild. Let's look at our. Our previous guest, Denise and Aaron, who were on the American Nightmare docuseries. This is a couple who goes to, you know, she's missing. Aaron goes to Police and says, we were terrorized by these abductors and they took my girlfriend and they told me they were watching me on a camera. That' sounds nuts, right? I mean, you're like, okay, that guy killed. No, but he didn't. And the evidence showed that. And the evidence, had the police really scrutinized, it would have backed up what he was saying. And they didn't listen to him because it sounded so wild. I don't think you can be dismissive of something. I think you have to be curious. You have to at least acknowledge, okay, is this possible? And then go with the evidence. But when we're seeing stuff like a guy burglarizes somebody's RV and is this whole implausible story, you know, unless he's producing some pretty good evidence to back up what he's saying, then I think we're okay to dismiss that.

[Kevin Greenlee]

If I'm overheard saying, oh, I want to rip Mr. X off, and then later, Mr. X is found dead and I'm found a distance away from Mr. X, I have with me Mr. X's vehicle, Mr. X's phone, Mr. X's bank card. I think I ripped him off. I think I murdered him.

[Anya Cain]

To use a less dramatic and disturbing example, like if I, if I run out of the store with a bunch of cornflake boxes that I'm stealing and then I come and say, when the police catch me, I say, oh, well, I thought I heard the manager say, anya, grab those boxes and run. You gotta save them from that other guy back there who's gonna steal them. I was just trying to help. And I was putting them in my car because I thought that was the safest thing. And I was driving off real fast because I thought this guy was chasing me. And I was just trying to follow the manager's instructions to get them away to safety. And I was going to bring them back later. Obviously, I mean, no one would believe that. Could that be technically true? Maybe, maybe that could. Anything can happen. But like, did that happen? No, that's stupid. If you're ridiculous, we have a smart audience. So I think, I think you can trust yourself sometimes. I think sometimes people feel like they, in order to be open minded, they have to just buy anything. You don't. If your gut is like, this is stupid and this is not backed up by evidence, stick to your guns, I say. I just, I don't. I think, yeah, it's, it's preposterous.

[Kevin Greenlee]

And I think if a story like this is true, if you accidentally killed someone, While you were about to kill yourself. If accidentally killing him wasn't enough to then motivate you to immediately go ahead and shoot yourself, I would think you would take pains to notify someone of this as soon as possible.

[Anya Cain]

The behavior afterwards doesn't fly with someone who feels remorseful and oh my gosh, I didn't mean to do this. This was a tragic mistake. So yeah, it's sort of like when people claim self defense, but like they've hidden the body or something. And it's like how, like you wouldn't think you'd be doing that if it was really a self defense case.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Right.

[Anya Cain]

Self defense case. You'd think, okay, I was in the right. Let me call the police. Exactly, yeah. So is that Colorado?

[Kevin Greenlee]

That's Colorado.

[Anya Cain]

So then my next case is in Louisiana. I picked two cases right now because they're kind of, I don't know, they just struck me as a little bit similar, like, kind of interesting. And I will say this, for the Washington case I covered, I do want to thank the listener who recommended that. He's great, he's awesome. He's recommended so many cases. So thank you to him for recommending that one. Here's another case in Louisiana that was recommended by a listener. Thank you so much to her. Really appreciate it. And you know, appreciate when you guys let us know about some cases that you'd like to hear about. So couple of sources for this one, including the Guardian, WBRZ and the Advocate. This is a very tragic case and it kind of came up in the news again because of all things American Idol. I don't know about you, Kevin, but I remember when I was, when I was a young one, that was a really big deal. I think it was kind of more of starting out and I remember watching a couple seasons and it was very, very intense.

[Kevin Greenlee]

It was on like right before 24. So I'd often watch the end credits of it.

[Anya Cain]

Yes. Yeah.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Before then watching the adventures of Jack Bauer.

[Anya Cain]

So you were kind of getting the adventures. Oh, 24, that's so funn. Wow. This is all very early 2000s. Coded a little bit too much for my comfort. But, you know, this is a, this is a very sad situation. So recently, John Foster, a contestant on American Idol, he performed a song and wrote a song called Tell that Angel I Love Her. And this wasn't just a song that he, you know, pulled out of thin air. This was actually written about a good friend of his, Maggie Dunn, who's passed away. So what happened to Maggie, who was 17, and Caroline Gill, who was 16 then this occurred on January 1, I'm sorry, December 31, 2022, New Year's Eve. What happened was there was a, there was a police chase. And, and one thing, you know, we always see in the movies, the police chases and it's all wild and stuff, but like they can be dangerous. You know, it's a high speed situation. People are going very fast in their cars and it can end badly. And unfortunately this one did with a fatality. So what happened was 42 year old David, I'm saying this name wrong probably, but Cawthron, who was a police officer in the Addis Police Department in Louisiana, he was chasing, along with, I believe, Baton Rouge police, he was chasing a suspect who had stolen a car. And obviously that's something, you know, you do want to like, deal with that. That's, that that could be a problem and a safety issue. But in this case, the suspect, Tyquell Xanders was, you know, it seems like he stole his dad's car and it seemed like it, you know, it wasn't necessary. Like it wasn't necessarily like, oh my gosh, he, you know, has a gun and is shooting like it, like so kind of there's some questions about like, should this have necessitated such an intense police chase? But anyway, so he, he goes, he, so he go, that guy goes from Baton Rouge in the stolen car into West Baton Rouge Parish in Louisiana. They have parishes, not counties. And unfortunately, Catherine runs a red light, hits these two girls and they are killed. One of their brothers is badly injured and it's just, it's just really, it's really sad. They were both from the, from, I think Brulee is how you pronounce this kind of Louisiana town. They were cheerleaders, they were good friends. And you know, it kind of raised some questions about police pursuits and how do we do this safely. Obviously you want the police to be able to get fugitives from justice. You don't want to just be like, okay, just go in the community and rampage. No, but you also want people being safe when they're driving because, you know, if you're killing civilians to, to get a bad guy, even if it's by accident, that's, you know, that's not, that's not acceptable. And so what happened with Catherine is he, he definitely, you know, like he was, he was prosecuted for this and he was actually sentenced to 32 years in prison, 22 years suspended. And when he's released, he is supposed to go to schools and talk to different law Enforcement agencies about, you know, what, what not to do with this, what not to do with police chases. Prosecutors noted that he was driving like close to 90 miles an hour, never hitting the brakes, you know, just going what they said was reckless. You know, this is, this is not safe. What are your thoughts on that?

[Kevin Greenlee]

Yeah, I agree with you that it's important to protect the safety of civilians. And I've seen too many stories over the years of innocent people being injured or killed in situations where there's a police chase and it's a tragedy. And so it's important to weigh, Do a cost benefit analysis. Is it worth doing this even though it may put people in danger? And in some cases, if it's someone who's actively dangerous and shooting people or what have you. Yeah. Other cases, no.

[Anya Cain]

And I think that the other thing, and I totally agree with what you just said, the other thing that we need to remember is, you know, we have to be looking at when you're in the middle of a police chase, you know, what decisions are, are okay to kind of further that and keep that going and what things are not. And in this situation, you know, running a red light, going high speed like this, in this situation when other cars are coming, that led to a disaster. So there have to be maybe some, yes, we can go on the chase, but no, we're not going to do this, this and that because that would just be too risky and really, you know, harm. Harm everything I know as of 2024, you know. Yeah. So, I mean, like, it's just sad because I. I don't know, it's like. It's like, obviously this police officer probably, you know, didn't think he was gonna kill two teenage girls that day. It just sat all around that this kind of situation just led to a tragedy. But it's, it's a reminder that, you know, we, we need to. Definitely. Some of those conversations, I imagine, are happening whenever there's a fatality in a police chase. I mean, as. As it should. My next case also involves law enforcement. In this case, as. As the victim. This is a very twisty kind of disturbing series of events. And my sources for this are Fox 19, as well as W, C, P O. And actually a YouTube video from one of the other local channels. Let me check which one it is because I forgot it off the top of my head. Local 12. And this is a story out of Cincinnati, Ohio. You and I have been there many a time. I love Cincinnati. I don't know, it's just a city that I'M like, it's got good vibes, you know, but it does. It. I mean, I'm sorry. It just does. I mean, I. I would hope you would agree.

[Kevin Greenlee]

What? Do you like the Beach Boys over there?

[Anya Cain]

What? Oh, Good Vibrations. No, I'm not. I don't know. I just like Cincinnati. They. They invented the filet o fish. But.

[Kevin Greenlee]

So anyways, that's supposed to be my line.

[Anya Cain]

Well, I wrote an article on it.

[Kevin Greenlee]

The names got mixed up on our script this week. Sully, you're talking about fish sandwiches.

[Anya Cain]

They just picked a new pope. So I'm in, like, Catholic mode. It's Catholic history. Are you ready to rock? Big Savings Rakuten's Big Give Week is a festival of savings with 15% cash back at hundreds of stores. We're talking 15% cash back at Expedia, Ray Ban, Stanley and more. Shoppers in the know get the best savings when they use Rakuten. They shop the brands they love and earn cash back on top of deals. Big Give Week is only once a year and the cash back rates are through the roof. I'll be shopping for some new beauty products and home essentials while getting 15% cash back on it all. I get my cash back sent directly to my PayPal and it feels so good whenever I see it hit my account. Join for free today and get a $20 welcome bonus. Hurry. Big Give Week ends May 12, and there won't be an encore. Go to rakuten.com or download the Rakuten app. That's R A K U t e n rakuten.com and now a next level moment from ATT Business. Say you've sent out a gigantic shipment of pillows and they need to be there in time for International Sleep day. You've got AT and T5G so you're fully confident, but the vendor isn't responding. And International Sleep Day is tomorrow. Luckily, AT&T 5G lets you deal with any issues with ease. So the pillows will get delivered and everyone can sleep soundly, especially you. AT&T 5G requires a compatible plan and device. Coverage not available everywhere. Learn [e-mail] 5G Network but so yeah, Cincinnati. But this is unfortunately a very tragic situation all around. So what happened was where to even begin here? So there was a situation again involving a stolen car. Group of, you know, young men who were associated with the stolen car and kind of were kind of fleeing police. One of them was Ryan hinton. He was 18 years old. Cincinnati Police Department officers are kind of chasing them and whatnot and one of the officers believed he was pointing a gun at them. And he's shot and he. They shoot him. He's killed. Now, the body camera footage is apparently pretty unclear here. It's not. It's not clearly capturing exactly what happened. So Ryan Hinton's family views this body cam footage and, you know, is able to kind of see it. Very emotional situation for them, understandably, they, you know, watching their child, their son, their nephew, their cousin be killed. And then his father, Rodney Hinton Jr. Who is 38, leaves. And from there, I mean, he seems to be in a really bad emotional state, according to the people with him. So he leaves the office, you know, where they viewed this video, at 10:30am 12:40, he gets his car, a black Ford Focus, and then he drives towards the University of Cincinnati, which was having, I believe, their graduation ceremony. Meanwhile, you have this, you know, this. This Special Deputy Henderson, who was essentially just. I mean, this guy has been described, you know, super positively by those who worked with him. He really kind of did it all. So he was a Hamilton County Sheriff's deputy, Larry Henderson. He was like a leader on their dive team. He had been on an FBI task force. He had been on the bomb squad. Very helpful, very attentive, very beloved by his colleagues and friends. And he had retired in December, but, you know, he was still doing special deputy stuff. So he's helping with the graduation. He's in his, you know, like, I think there's some kind of neon vest or something that they're wearing to do road work and road traffic. I mean, traffic work, I guess. And unfortunately, Hinton strikes and kills him with this vehicle, seemingly on purpose. And what has been alleged here is that he was targeting him because he was law enforcement. And. And what the narrative is being set up by the state is essentially it's like a revenge killing. His son was shot by police. He's going to kill this law enforcement officer. Now, so far, there's been a hearing that totally descended into chaos to the point where Bayless had to usher Hinton away, you know, because seemingly a man who was saying that he was Hinton's brother was like yelling and, you know, people, they kind of cleared the courtroom. It was. It was just a message, obviously a very charged situation. But, you know, at this point, it's like, yeah, I mean, what you have is on the one hand, this kind of narrative revenge. What I'm hearing from the defense so far is that they're saying that Hinton is mentally unstable and having mental issues and Perhaps his son's death and seeing that body cam footage was a trigger. So we're kind of seeing, I don't know, just the, the two kind of sides kind of gearing up with what perhaps they're going to go with. And we'll just have to see where it develops. But obviously just a horrible situation. Um, I mean, Deputy Henderson obviously had nothing to do with the shooting of this guy's son. And if he was targeted just because he was doing his job, then that's really horrible.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Yeah, I agree.

[Anya Cain]

What do you think?

[Kevin Greenlee]

I agree completely.

[Anya Cain]

Yeah. Sad situation in Ohio.

[Kevin Greenlee]

It's very sad. Let's move on to some combination of corrections and clarifications. We talked last week about a ruling from the Michigan Supreme Court that said people under a certain age could not be automatically sentenced to life without parole. And we got a lot of questions and comments about that. First of all, I think we misspoke and said that the judges in Michigan are appointed, they're actually elected. And then we should make it as clear as we can that the ruling says these people of a certain age cannot automatically be sentenced to life without parole. There needs to be some sort of a process in place. And so now a lot of prosecutors have to go back because the ruling is retroactive. So a lot of prosecutors in Michigan are now being swamped with a bunch of extra work because now they have to go back and re examine all of their old cases. For people of a certain age getting that sentence so they can make a determination, do we want to try to make it so this old sentence that was given in the past still applies, or do we want them to be eligible for parole? And so that is what is happening in Michigan. If the prosecutors don't act, it's not a situation where, oh, the next day the people get out. But certainly I've seen news coverage of prosecutors in Michigan, like going to their town councils and saying, we need more staff, we need more manpower because we have to go and suddenly review all these cases. And finally, I want to note, a number of people have wrote us about the science that when a person is a certain age, maybe their brains and brain chemistry are not as fully developed as they would be when they were a little bit older and more mature. Certainly you're correct me if I'm wrong, Anya, we didn't really mean to disregard the science. The point I was trying to make, perhaps clumsily, was that I felt that if you're going to make this sort of a massive change in how things are done, In Michigan, I think it would make more sense to go through the state legislature and have more openness and debate about it.

[Anya Cain]

Yeah, no, I agree with that. I mean, I think I probably was more eye rolling about the, you know, idea that 19 and 20 year olds can't make decisions for themselves. I, I certainly understand that your brain is not done developing until, you know, 25. I mean, it's really a range. It's not, it's not like everyone's brain is like done on, you know, when you're on your 25th birthday. It's just, it's. That's a pretty good approximation throughout your early 20s. It's still in the process is basically where we are. I, I kind of feel like when we're talking about, I mean like the fact that we're talking about first degree murder, though, that's, you know, when there's premeditation, that feels like maybe, maybe there could be impulsiveness involved in that. But I don't know, it's kind of a hard sell for me. I think it's one of those things where, I mean, we should certainly listen to the science. And if I, I guess for me there's to overcome, I don't know, like, that's good to have and that's good input to have. To me, I don't know if, like that would make me think, well, 19 and 20 year olds can, you know, should not be responsible for their actions, which is kind of where I feel like some of this leads us. But at the same time, I think this is a situation where we kind of just read or in this case, you know, we kind of looked at the media reports on this ruling. Is that fair to say, Kevin?

[Kevin Greenlee]

Yes.

[Anya Cain]

And, you know, kind of drew conclusions that were probably too hasty based on that, which is always good lesson. Always read the actual ruling itself instead of going through and just kind of picking media reports because I feel like we were too hard on. Could have been a better discussion from the perspective of like, well, maybe this could have been different. But, you know, I think we were just kind of looking at what the headlines were and then reading the articles and being like, whoa, this seems really extreme. And it's not as extreme as we thought it was. It's. It's more in line with, oh yeah, that kind of makes some sense. I do feel bad for prosecutors in Michigan who have to deal with this though. Seems like either maybe legislature or give them more time to deal with this fact that there's a fast approaching deadline is a little bit like okay. Is that super necessary? I don't know. What do you think?

[Kevin Greenlee]

Yeah, I mean, that's. I think that's what I tried to say last week, so.

[Anya Cain]

Yeah, but I mean, again, I, I believe in the science. I just. I don't know. I. I still also believe that when you're. I think when you're 18, you're capable of, like, knowing not to murder people. And I, I don't know. I think, I think it's just. That's just my opinion. I think personal responsibility should come into play when you're at that age.

[Kevin Greenlee]

I agree completely.

[Anya Cain]

But I also understand that you definitely are more impulsive then, and you're definitely going to be making some significantly worse decisions. And, you know, I'm, I'm certainly okay with situations where we're taking that into account, at least, and that's part of how we're looking at somebody. Because also, I believe maybe if you're making those bad decisions when you're 18, maybe you can be a productive member of society later on. Maybe you, you know, you get caught up in some kind of bad lifestyle and then you kind of are able to mature and grow and be rehabilitated. I mean, maybe that's not someone who should be in prison for life. So, you know, I think that's a reasonable thing to look at on a case by case basis.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Yeah, I think it's a worthy discussion to have. I'm just not sure this was the best way to implement it.

[Anya Cain]

Well, yeah, I agree, but I also understand from the judge's perspectives, they feel like this could be something that might benefit a lot of people. They're trying their best to make decisions that are gonna be good for society, and this is what they feel that was. And we can, we can nitpick it, but I also, I feel like we should say, you know, they're, they're, they're trying, and that's. This is just what they felt was the right thing and the right implementation of the science and the law.

[Kevin Greenlee]

So do you think I was, like, more impulsive when I was younger?

[Anya Cain]

Yes, I think you're still more impulsive. You're just constantly getting more impulsive.

[Kevin Greenlee]

That doesn't make any sense.

[Anya Cain]

I think I was less impulsive when I was 18. I was really. I mean, I was like, I was a square. You know, I was, I was really about my studies. Now I'm just like, what? Now I'm a podcaster? I mean, what's happened?

[Kevin Greenlee]

Were you, like a teenager in 1957? You were, like, square yeah.

[Anya Cain]

And you were a beatnik. No, I was kidding. For time travels? No. I don't know. I mean, I don't. I guess I was pretty impulsive. I don't, I don't think. I don't know. I definitely made a lot of bad decisions back then, but like, not the kind of like crazy wild, like just more of like nerdy, sad decisions. How about you? Were you a really impulsive teenager?

[Kevin Greenlee]

I bought a lot of comic books.

[Anya Cain]

You're still doing that now you. Nothing's changed. Anyways. Well, thank you all. And also, you know, like, yeah, we got, we got people said, who. Who said, oh, you guys went. Went too far on the Michigan ruling. We appreciate when people reach out to us and say, hey, I totally disagree with you. Here's a bunch of stuff because I don't know, that helps us be better and see more sides of it. And usually if we're just kind of covering something briefly on Cheat Sheet, we could always get more information and do a better job. And so, like, I guess, hopefully this makes people feel like you can reach out to us and say, hey, you should mention this, this, or this, or actually, this is what's right, or you're pronouncing that completely wrong. Stop.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Yeah, certainly we always welcome feedback, but I'm not sure, Anya, if from a marketing perspective, if it's a good idea for you to say, oh, by the way, Cheat Sheet listeners, when you listen to Cheat Sheet, always remember that Kevin and I can do better when we do Cheat Sheet.

[Anya Cain]

I don't mean it like that. I mean, like, don't you want people.

[Kevin Greenlee]

To come back next week?

[Anya Cain]

I didn't mean it like that. I meant, I meant it like, I meant it. Like we're trying to always self improve and do a better job, and so we try our best on Cheat Sheet. I'm just saying when we're kind of, you know, we're usually kind of jumping into cases, basing on media reports and kind of giving people a kind of a chance to research for themselves by including our links and stuff. But I'm not, I'm not.

[Kevin Greenlee]

You can always do better.

[Anya Cain]

I'm, I'm. Oh my gosh, you're silly.

[Kevin Greenlee]

You're like slamming us over here.

[Anya Cain]

Slamming us over here. I'm just tell. I'm just telling people. We, we. We don't mind getting respectful feedback.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Are you typing something on Reddit now about us? Jesus. All these complaints about us on the Rednet, now I know they come from you.

[Anya Cain]

The Burger Sheets couple is just evil. I Love it when people call us the Murder Sheets. Honestly, I, I, I. And that's. I feel like people, People call us all sorts of names, but that one, that, I think that's, I think that's funny, and I think it's cute, and, and not everyone who uses that hates us, but. Yeah. So you're saying I'm. I'm actually behind all the Reddit posts dunking on us? Maybe just the ones dunking on you. I don't know.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Trying to build yourself.

[Anya Cain]

Up at my expense for your impulsive ways? Well, I actually see. I do see stuff where I, I think, like, I get. There's a lot of. I see a lot of things in the genre of, you know, Kevin is a gem of a man. Just a beautiful. Just like, look at this man. And then. But Anya is terrible and ruins it, so get him out of there. So I do see that. So maybe I do need to start being like, Anya's pretty great, but this Kevin guy, I don't know.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Yeah, we have. What's he talking about?

[Anya Cain]

Why does he buy so many books all the time and clutter up their house?

[Kevin Greenlee]

Oh, I often see matches. Help Kevin. Get him away from Anya.

[Anya Cain]

Help Kevin save Kevin. I come across really well on the show, obviously.

[Kevin Greenlee]

No, you're a jab.

[Anya Cain]

No, I. You just stole my word. But no, I mean, yeah, it's just. But no, I mean, I don't, I don't mean, like, I don't mean anything against the cheat sheet. I'm just more of, like, just saying in general, we. We love feedback and, like, don't yell and curse at us, but you can always be like, hey, guys, here's something that's more accurate than what you said. And we'll be like, oh, sorry. Thank you. So that's how it's going to go.

[Kevin Greenlee]

But you don't want people to curse at you.

[Anya Cain]

I don't want people to curse at me. I don't want them to yell at me and say me unkind things. We can be constructive. You want people to curse at you? Is that what you're saying? Is that what you're saying?

[Kevin Greenlee]

No, I wasn't. But curse at you?

[Anya Cain]

No. Wow. What a good husband. Oh, my God. Gosh.

[Kevin Greenlee]

In a couple of days, we'll be seeing 50 of you in Columbus. And if you go to Columbus, Indiana, because we're doing a live event, and if you get to Columbus early, we're.

[Anya Cain]

Just going to sneak into their houses, though.

[Kevin Greenlee]

You're saying if you get there early, you know, there's lots of lovely buildings and things to see. Beautiful town. But if you get there early, and if you get there, like, really, really early, because this closes at 2:30, there is a place in town called Ye Olde Fish House.

[Anya Cain]

Yes.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Great fish sandwiches.

[Anya Cain]

Kevin is obsessed with them and they're quite good. So his. He's right. He's correct.

[Kevin Greenlee]

If I still lived in Columbus or if it didn't close at 2:30, I'd be eating there every day.

[Anya Cain]

I know it would be. You'd be very unhealthy. But it's very good. It's very good. And they're so nice in there. And it's just a. It's a classic Columbus staple. And yeah, he's right about the architecture. It's fascinating. There's a church that's like, shaped like an oil can. It's wild. All these cool buildings. This is back in the era when rich people used to actually do something for their communities. And. And these rich people in Columbus donated a lot of really cool building.

[Kevin Greenlee]

The way you're describing Columbus, because I also know it's like.

[Anya Cain]

And it's Indiana.

[Kevin Greenlee]

It's Columbus, Indiana. And the way you're describing it, it's also. I know it's out in the Prairies. You almost make it sound like an Athens of the Prairies.

[Anya Cain]

Yes.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Okay.

[Anya Cain]

You want to explain what that was?

[Kevin Greenlee]

No, no. Everybody knows what an Athens of the Prairies is.

[Anya Cain]

I thought Vincent Price said it wasn't really the Athens of the Prairies.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Why don't you just push the.

[Anya Cain]

Oh, wait. Also, we have a book coming out. Pre order it. We really appreciate that.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Oh, and between now and next week's Cheat sheet, author photos will be taken.

[Anya Cain]

Oh, God.

[Kevin Greenlee]

You can tell whether or not I won the argument in the coming week, whether or not you see Anya in a big hat.

[Anya Cain]

I'm not wearing a big hat for.

[Kevin Greenlee]

That, so I'll probably lose the argument. Anya's giving you a spoiler.

[Anya Cain]

The first time he's mentioning this. So that's. That's fun. This is going to be a great photo session. We're definitely not going to get into an argument. I'm so excited.

[Kevin Greenlee]

But if you see her, her author's photo has a huge hat. First of all, you say, wow, she looks great. She looks very intellectual. This looks like somebody wrote a pretty good book. But if you see that, that means I won. And if you don't. Or it could be like a little cap of an engineer's cap for the kids.

[Anya Cain]

Why would I. Yeah, because I want to look. Geez, Louise. Oh, my God. And okay, so that, like, moving on from that. Yeah. Pre order the book. There's going to be an audiobook. We don't know when that's coming out. And for people in countries that are not the United States, people have asked us, how can I get the book? The thing that we're being told right now is international rights are complicated, but you can always ask your local bookseller to order it for you. And that's a great way to support your local booksellers because we love the.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Local bookstores and we've heard, like, a rumor about who might be reading it, but we're not sure yet.

[Anya Cain]

Oh. Oh, you want to break that scoop?

[Kevin Greenlee]

Well, it's a pretty big name.

[Anya Cain]

Kind of a diva anyways, so we. And then also we have shirts if you want to buy them. Murder sheets can check it out. Get the. Get the shirts, get the book. We'll see some of you in Columbus. The whole experience. We'll see some of you Columbus. I'm not wearing a big hat for anything involving this. I'm sorry, Kevin. That could be. That could be some. That. We're. I'm. We're just not doing that. But I appreciate. I appreciate your efforts.

[Kevin Greenlee]

So you're saying we can still discuss it.

[Anya Cain]

We can discuss it for other things, but not that. All right, anyways, bye, everyone. Thanks for listening.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Thanks so much for listening to the Murder Sheet. If you have a tip concerning one of the cases we cover, please email [e-mail]. if you have actionable information about an unsolved crime, please report it to the appropriate authorities.

[Anya Cain]

If you're interested in joining our Patreon, that's available at www.patreon.com murder sheet. If you want to tip us a bit of money for records requests, you can do so at www. Buymeacoffee.com murdersheet. We very much appreciate any support.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Special thanks to Kevin Tyler Greenlee, who composed the music for the Murder Sheet and who you can find on the [e-mail] if you're looking to talk with.

[Anya Cain]

Other listeners about a case we've covered, you can join the Murder Sheet discussion group on Facebook. We mostly focus our time on research and reporting, so we're not on social media much. We do try to check our email account, but we ask for patience as we often receive a lot of messages. Thanks again for listening.