The Cheat Sheet: Bistros and Burglars

Summary

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Podcast Summary: Murder Sheet – "The Cheat Sheet: Bistros and Burglars"

Date: September 26, 2025
Hosts: Anya Cain & Kevin Greenlee

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Overview

In this multifaceted episode, journalist Anya Cain and attorney Kevin Greenlee take listeners on a journey through a series of recent and unusual crime stories spanning the United States and France. With their signature blend of thoughtful analysis, wry humor, and occasional personal stories, the co-hosts delve into topics ranging from the deadly consequences of stalking and ambushes of law enforcement, a mysterious French murder case sparking mass speculation, a surreal Ohio shooting, celebrity-adjacent cold cases in Colorado, celebrity process serving gone awry, and the legal gray areas of serving process on high-profile figures. The episode reflects deeply on the recurring theme of how violence and crime intertwine with society, media, and the justice system.

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1. Intro & Episode Structure

(No timestamp: skips content up to first relevant segment)

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2. Pennsylvania Detective Ambush (Domestic Violence and Police Murders)

[05:15 – 14:07]

• Incident Recap:
  On September 17, 2025, three Pennsylvania detectives investigating a stalking case were ambushed and murdered by a gunman outside his ex-girlfriend’s property.
• Host Analysis:
  • Anya refuses to name the suspect, noting:

    “Why give this pathetic creep any sort of attention? … Not on my show.” [06:12]

  • Both hosts emphasize the urgency of treating stalking as a serious prelude to violence—Anya calls for harsher sentences, viewing stalking as an escalation often leading to murder.
  • Kevin references the Rebecca Schaeffer case, highlighting stalking's fatal outcomes.
  • Anya shares empathy for both the slain officers’ families and the ex-girlfriend targeted by the perpetrator, and she reflects on society’s failure to prevent such escalation:

    “It’s not passion. It’s like cold-blooded hunting, seeing other people as your property and going around and lying in wait in order to harm people.” [09:27]

• Victim Tribute:
  The victims—Detective Sergeant Cody Becker, Detective Mark Baker, and Detective Isaiah Emenhiser—were remembered as community heroes and family men.
  • Each had saved lives in their service, underlining the profound loss.
• Memorable Quote:

  “If you can get people when they’re still in the stalking phase, you’re going to save lives potentially.” – Anya Cain [13:12]

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3. France’s High-Profile “No Body” Murder Case & True Crime Spectacle

[14:17 – 31:45]

• Case Details:
  • The accused, Cédric Jubilar, is on trial for his wife Delphine's murder, though her body was never found.
  • The case has gripped France, drawing comparisons to Delphi—a parallel with American cases fueled by social media “bistro counter” speculation.
• Host Discussion:
  • Kevin is fascinated by the French public’s internet crime-solving explosion.

    “These online groups are, quote, the equivalent of the bistro counter, but with more people.” [16:15]

  • Anya issues a warning to France about the pitfalls of online amateur sleuthing:

    “It’s all fun and games until people start accusing each other of murder needlessly and it’s just dumb.” [18:42]

  • The duo explores challenges in prosecuting “no body” cases, with Kevin noting U.S. conviction rates are higher because prosecutors only proceed with robust evidence.
  • Kevin questions whether Jubilar—portrayed as a layabout—could execute a “perfect murder.” Anya rebuts this as a myth, pointing out mediocrity does not preclude violent acts.
• Speculation/Controversy:
  • The only alleged evidence is two supposed confessions (unsubstantiated), and, bizarrely, Jubilar claims his wife might have joined ISIS.
  • Anya is skeptical, citing normal patterns of radicalization are absent.
  • They express doubt about sufficient evidence but acknowledge the social and emotional forces driving public intrigue.
• Memorable Quotes:

  “Men do this all the time, they kill their wives. You don’t have to be a rocket scientist, you just have to be violent and, you know, bad.” – Anya Cain [30:41]
  “If you thought your husband wasn’t able to take care of them, would she just leave and abandon her children to him?” – Kevin Greenlee on Delphine’s love for her children [30:17]

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4. Ohio: Naked Gunman and a Police Shooting Mystery

[32:07 – 35:36]

• Story Highlights:
  • In August 2025, in Gibson City, Ohio, officers responded to reports of a naked 70-year-old man, David D. Jordan, who promptly shot both responding officers before his house caught fire. He then fled, possibly on a red bicycle, and remains at large.
• Analysis:
  • Anya describes the chaos and strangeness of the case, noting it is rare for a police shooter to evade authorities for so long:

    “He’s considered armed and dangerous. So if you happen to see this old white dude wandering around, call 911.” [34:33]

  • The incident raises questions about policing, officer safety, and offender tracking.
• Memorable Moment:
  Anya reads out the tip line, underlining the open nature of the case.

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5. Colorado Cold Case: The Murder of Sid Wells & DA Alex Hunter

[35:40 – 41:33]

• Incident Recap:
  • The murder of journalism student Sid Wells in Boulder, Colorado (1983); Wells was dating Robert Redford’s daughter.
  • Main suspect: his roommate, Thayne Smika, who disappeared after the DA declined to prosecute in the 1980s; later evidence led to a renewed warrant, but Smika remains at large.
• Host Discussion:
  • The case’s connection to Robert Redford has kept it in the public eye.
  • DA Alex Hunter’s role (also noted for mishandling the JonBenét Ramsey case) is heavily criticized by both hosts.

    “He is perhaps one of the most useless district attorneys in a high-profile case that I’ve ever read about.” – Anya [38:38]

  • The episode illustrates the difficulties in prosecuting cold cases, especially with the passage of time and problematic investigative history.
• Notable Quote:

  “Hopefully...this burst of publicity from the death of Mr. Redford will attract some attention.” – Kevin [40:55]

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6. Celebrity Stalking & Process Server Escalation (Taylor Swift, Travis Kelce)

[41:34 – 48:41]

• Incident Recap:
  • Taylor Swift and fiancé Travis Kelce, both recent victims of stalking, were further targeted by an overzealous process server who trespassed onto Kelce’s property, allegedly to serve legal papers related to a high-profile lawsuit.
• Legal Analysis:
  • Anya and Kevin discuss the limits of what a process server may do:

    “You're not allowed to do that, even if you're a process server.” – Kevin [44:34]

  • The hosts speculate whether the act was meant for publicity, noting the tabloid spectacle serves no one and puts people in harm’s way.
  • The judge in the Swift-related lawsuit eventually denies the deposition request, with Swift’s attorney noting her lack of material involvement.
  • They touch on the stressful, sometimes dangerous, nature of process serving.
  • The story segues into a comparison with Anya’s own experience being served, emphasizing the need for professionalism.
• Quotes:

  “It just almost seems like there’s something calculated about it because why would you do it this way otherwise? Unless you're just stupid, which is always, I guess, possible.” – Anya [45:41]

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7. Closing Segments: Events, Listener Engagement, and Personal Stories

Upcoming Murder Sheet Events

[49:41 – 52:53]

• The hosts promote their upcoming book signings and talks in Indiana and Kentucky, explicitly inviting listeners to check their website for details.

Anecdote Exchanges

[54:32 – 69:49]

• Anya’s College Bike Race Story: A comedic, slightly harrowing tale of biking to an 8k run via public highways and tunnels—the perils of under-preparation turned into a lesson about over-planning.
• Kevin’s Fifth-Grade Journalism Saga: Kevin shares his formative experience with authority and freedom of the press as a child reporter at ‘Richards Republic,’ humorously recalling the principal’s meltdown over a harmless interview quote.

  "That taught me a lot about freedom of the press and freedom of speech." – Kevin [67:48]

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Notable Quotes

• On Stalking & Violence:

  "You don’t stalk someone by accident. So I think this stuff needs to be taken really seriously and law and legislation needs to catch up with the reality here." – Anya Cain [10:53]

• On Amateur Sleuth Culture:

  "France, you know, we just don’t. I’m just having done it over here… you ruin people’s lives for no reason." – Anya Cain [18:42]

• On Cold Cases and Prosecutors:

  “He is perhaps one of the most useless district attorneys…that I’ve ever read about.” – Anya Cain [38:38]
  “It’s difficult for me to have any respect for him… after that I never automatically respected someone just because of their authority.” – Kevin Greenlee, on the elementary school principal [67:48]

• On Gender, Violence, and Myths:

  “We expect too much from murderers. You don’t really need that much. You can get lucky and you can just kind of, I don’t know, go under the radar for a while.” – Anya Cain [30:41]

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Timestamps for Major Segments

• Pennsylvania Detective Ambush: [05:15 – 14:07]
• France “No Body” Murder Case: [14:17 – 31:45]
• Ohio Naked Gunman: [32:07 – 35:36]
• Colorado Redford Cold Case: [35:40 – 41:33]
• Taylor Swift Process Serving: [41:34 – 48:41]
• Personal Anecdotes: [54:32 – 69:49]

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Takeaways

• Stalking is lethal—the episode underscores the need for stronger legal consequences and early interventions.
• True crime speculation can become toxic, especially as it migrates across cultures.
• Cold cases hinge on investigative rigor and prosecutorial decisions, with public fascination sometimes leading to perpetual debate.
• Law & celebrity intersect with unexpected comic moments in process serving and stalker cases.
• Hosts’ personal stories round out the episode with humor, vulnerability, and reflections on authority, risk, and preparation.

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This episode of Murder Sheet masterfully weaves together analysis, advocacy, legal insight, and wit, making for a gripping and multifaceted listen or read, especially for those seeking to understand the deeper dynamics behind recent crime news headlines.

Transcript

[Anya Cain]

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[Kevin Greenlee]

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[Anya Cain]

It is. It just frankly is. And I'm excited to look into getting some more Mongolian cashmere sweaters, maybe some new colors. We're going to mix it up and I'd like to add those to my Quince collection. They start at just $50, so it's a steal. All Quint's pieces are like half the cost of similar brands, so check them out today. Quince saves you money by cutting out the middlemen.

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[Kevin Greenlee]

Content warning. This episode includes discussion of domestic violence, murder, and possible suicide.

[Anya Cain]

So today on the Cheat Sheet, we're going all around the country. Truly. And abroad.

[Kevin Greenlee]

And abroad.

[Anya Cain]

Going to Europe. Going. This is actually a situation where we could feasibly use the Chunnel.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Yeah. You are obsessed with the Chunnel. You can't stop talking about it. I think that's like the underground tunnel that links Britain and France. Is that correct? Which you. You like to call it the Chunnel.

[Anya Cain]

Yeah. This is getting off to a really good start.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Should we start over?

[Anya Cain]

No, we're gonna keep going. Okay. So they can hear what I have to deal with all day.

[Kevin Greenlee]

You're the luckiest one alive, and you know it.

[Anya Cain]

Oh, my God. Okay, so, yeah, we're gonna go to. Gonna go to France. Gonna go to Pennsylvania, Ohio. Where else are we going? Where are your places? Your other one. Oh, we're going to Kansas.

[Kevin Greenlee]

That's one of your places.

[Anya Cain]

Yeah, but what's. What's your other one? That's not France?

[Kevin Greenlee]

Utah.

[Anya Cain]

Utah. All right, all right. So we're going all around through the channel and. And else otherwise.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Because what state is more similar to France than Utah?

[Anya Cain]

Exactly.

[Kevin Greenlee]

So minor. Like, thematically. Actually, they're not.

[Anya Cain]

Mine are thematically linked. Except for the last one. I just, you know, somebody told me about it, so I was like, let's mention it. Because it's about legal stuff.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Yes. Moments before we recorded, you got a flash, and you said, kevin, this has nothing do with the substance of our program. Nothing to do with the subject of our program.

[Anya Cain]

True. That's what you're saying.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Let's cover it.

[Anya Cain]

What you're saying is just simply not true.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Well, I was here.

[Anya Cain]

You're just hyper. You're a hyper man today.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Not a very calm.

[Anya Cain]

No, not at all. At all. This is ridiculous. All right. Can I hit the button?

[Kevin Greenlee]

Please do.

[Anya Cain]

My name is Anya Cain. I'm a journalist.

[Kevin Greenlee]

And I'm Kevin Greenlee. I'm an attorney.

[Anya Cain]

And this is the Murder Sheet.

[Kevin Greenlee]

We're a true crime podcast focused on original reporting, interviews, and deep dives into murder cases. We're the Murder sheet.

[Anya Cain]

And this is the cheat sheet. Bistros and burglars, Sam. So this first case is out of Pennsylvania. And it's. It's a very disturbing, upsetting situation, but it's one that's unfortunately all too common at times. And it does highlight an issue that is, I think, something that is not taken seriously enough by society. So this case occurred on September 17, 2025 in Pennsylvania, and three police officers, detectives actually, who were serving, who were investigating a possible stalking case, were ambushed, shot and murdered by a gunman. We know who the gunman was. I'm not going to name him on this show because why give this pathetic creep any sort of attention? This is somebody who is a waste of life. And I just, you know, not on my show, we're not talking about who this was. We're going to talk about some of the crummy things he did, but not. Not give him the dignity of naming him. This was a guy who was stalking his ex girlfriend. He had shown up to her property with armed, obviously, and these law enforcement officers were responding to the situation, and they had a drone out and they were looking for him. But unfortunately, he was still able to ambush and kill them. And I personally feel like once somebody, typically a man, typically a man. I mean, not always, though. There can be female stalkers 100%, and that should be taken seriously as well, regardless of gender. But when you have a man who's stalking an ex romantic partner, that is such an escalation in behavior. I think people like that should have the book thrown at them when. When they're caught doing that or even getting towards that point. I think you should have extreme sentences for that because who wants to deal with that? You know, if you're such a loser that you're going and doing this nonsense and, you know, then frankly, you're a risk to society. You know, you're probably very likely going to hurt somebody. And why should anyone have to put up with this, Throw them in prison.

[Kevin Greenlee]

You're just terrorizing people. You engage in stalking. And certainly, I mean, we can pretty easily name many instances off the top of our heads where stalking led to murder. I remember back to the case of the actress who was on My sister, Sam, Rebecca Schaeffer. She was stalked and then murdered.

[Anya Cain]

We know the famous people who were stalked and murdered, but it happens to so many people, happens to so many women. And it can also affect, you know, men, because they might be law enforcement officers responding to a situation, or you might be the new boyfriend or the new husband who gets caught in between. So it's a situation where I think we should be throwing the book at people who are doing this. I think this is something that should be, you know, absolutely a huge red flag. It should be seen as like a prelude to murder. Cause it often is, or at least violence. And it's unacceptable. No one should have to be living in fear. This woman shouldn't have had to be going through this. And these three law enforcement officers should not be dead. It's, it's appalling because people act like, oh, it's the passion of the, you know, the, the romance has ended and now they can't let it go. It's not passion. It's like cold blooded hunting, seeing other people as your property and going around and lying in wait in order to harm people. There's nothing, there's no crime of passion here. The amount of effort it takes to stalk somebody, this is not an argument gone wrong where somebody hits somebody. And you know, that's horrifying enough in itself. And I'm certainly not, you know, you lay hands on another person and you're not a child, then, you know, there need to be pretty extreme consequences in my opinion. But this is a situation where we can't even argue that this is just a bad decision. It's not a mistake. You don't stalk someone by accident. So I think this stuff needs to be taken really seriously and law and legislation needs to catch up with the reality here. Because I think there's a big nexus between domestic violence, the kind of stalking side of things, and mass shooting events and mass, mass casualty events. I'm not saying all of them fit that category, but I'm saying there's. There seems to be some kind of link here. And if you can get people when they're still in the stalking phase, you're going to save lives potentially. And at the very least, you're going to get a dirt bag off the streets who's not contributing anything other than terrorizing random people. So I don't know. I feel very angry about this. I will say let's talk about the detectives who did die though, because they should be remembered, not this creepy. They were, they were Detective Sergeant Cody Becker, Detective Mark Baker and Detective Isaiah Emenhiser. And all of these men were fathers and they all were beloved by the community. This is a situation where Emenhiser actually like saved a guy in a burning mobile home, did cpr, saved the man's life. That guy's here because, because of that, that happened in 2005. He's survived by a wife and a son and a daughter, a woman who Was shot. Her sister remembered to the news how Detective Mark Baker was like just so close with her family and very much keeping them posted about the case where she was attacked. And this woman was like shot, run over by a car, all of these things. And he was just very communicative with them and made, made them feel. And he had a wife and five children, including one daughter who passed away. And Detective Sergeant Cody Becker. I think I said Baker earlier, but it looks like Becker, he also had two children and also saved some kids, a family of four actually, from a house fire. So all these men were heroes and they're no longer here because this creep couldn't deal with being romantically rejected. And if, if you know someone who struggles with issues around romantic rejection, especially a male, you know, encourage them to seek help because like no one should be killed because you're a bad boyfriend. Like, it's just, it's disgusting. It makes me angry. And people like this don't belong in society. If you can't handle being an adult, then, you know, no one else should have to deal with your violent nonsense. But anyways, my condolences to all these families. This is horrible. You hate to see this. I feel like this kind of reminds me of the case in Idaho that we talked about with the firefighters responding to a fire and then being ambushed and murdered by a gunman. It's like there's just these people who want to tear other people down and just do violence. And unfortunately, sometimes first responders are going to be the target of that in that situation. It's. It's horrible. But I also, my heart goes out to the woman that this guy was stalking because I mean, what a traumatic, what a compounding traumatic situation something like this would be. And the gunman himself died. It's unclear whether he died by the firefight that ensued when this happened or some sort of self inflicted gunshot wound. But either way, good riddance. And you know, maybe, maybe we can finally start getting serious about this stuff and putting these offenders away before it gets to this point.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Yeah, that's real tragedy.

[Anya Cain]

Now I think we're going to France. France, wow. One of your favorite places with some of your favorite authors.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Yes, it's one of my favorite places. But I hastened. I've never actually been to France.

[Anya Cain]

No, nor have I. But you love the French culture.

[Kevin Greenlee]

I once in college I tried to learn French, the language, and I couldn't do it. I don't think my brain works that way that I can actually learn a language. But I certainly enjoy reading a lot of 19th century French novelists in translation.

[Anya Cain]

Your Zolas, your mom. Passance. I don't know how to say the words. Your. What was the one? Balzac.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Your Balzac. Your Flaubert.

[Anya Cain]

Oh, wow. Kevin is very classy and smart and knows a lot about culture. And I sometimes feel like I'm just rubbing two sticks together over here compared to him. I'm very. I'm very impressed by your literary. The depth and extent of your literary knowledge.

[Kevin Greenlee]

I mean, things like Zola, a lot of that is like sex and violence. So, I mean, don't need. You don't need to be a professor to really appreciate sex and violence.

[Anya Cain]

I need to get into Zola. I want to read all those. And he, he kind of. He kind of stood on business in a famous scandal case situation and kind of lost everything for it. Right?

[Kevin Greenlee]

Yeah, there was, there was the, the case where, yeah, he. He basically stood up for somebody who was a victim of anti. Semitism and paid a pretty high price.

[Anya Cain]

The Dreyfus affair.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Right? Dreyfus affair.

[Anya Cain]

He was like, now this guy's not a. I don't like. I don' that much about that historical event, but he's like, nah, this is ridiculous. And people were like, yeah, we hate you. He got canceled and got canceled by cancel culture, but he was standing on business and. Yeah, but I think it's cool that you love all that stuff. I'm going to try to get into Zola because you're encouraging me that some of it's all like violence and crazy stuff happening. And I think that sounds fun.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Balzac Flair. All these guys are great.

[Anya Cain]

Yeah.

[Kevin Greenlee]

And Maupassant, his short stories are incredible.

[Anya Cain]

Yes.

[Kevin Greenlee]

So my source for this is the BBC and People magazine, and this is a case I had not heard of until this morning. But I think I'm going to start following this case because it sounds very interesting. And one thing that's interesting about it is the French are. This seems to be perhaps one of the first times where they have a case that's perhaps a little bit similar to what happened here with Delphi. Because this case is attracting a lot of social media attention. There's the equivalent of Internet chat groups. People are getting on their Internet groups and they're exchanging theories and ideas and irritating people. And one expert is quoted in this article as saying that these online groups are, quote, the equivalent of the bistro counter, but with more people.

[Anya Cain]

What a French way of putting it.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Didn't you often say that the crank groups on Delphi are just like the bistro counter.

[Anya Cain]

No, I think the groups in Delphi, or at least some of them, the ones that suck, are more like kind of the equivalent of wandering into like some old junked out junkyard and then some weird guy shouting from between the piles of trash at you, just random, vaguely threatening things until you leave.

[Kevin Greenlee]

So kind of like Sanford and Son.

[Anya Cain]

I. I'm just going to say this to France. Don't do it. You don't have to do this. Don't learn from America's mistakes here. Don't do it. Or at least if you do it, be very careful about how you do it because it's going to get like, you know, it's just. Who needs this? Like the discourse, the speculation. Yeah, it's all fun. You're at a bistro until someone breaks out the bistro knives and then everyone starts fighting and it's big mess and you ruin people's lives for no reason. So let's just not. Let's. My recommendation, France. Put. Just think about it. Just think about it.

[Kevin Greenlee]

What kind of bistros are you going to where there's knife fights? I'm just saying, maybe you weren't exaggerating earlier. You said I'm the refined one. You're going to bistros, you're fighting people, people. You're defending yourself with knives. You're going to junkyards.

[Anya Cain]

I have a very interesting life. I'm just saying France, you know, we just don't. I'm just having done it over here, it's just, you know, it's all fun and games until people start accusing each other of murder needlessly and it's just dumb. Shining a light on crime cases. We've come up against some frankly sinister characters. That means we've gotten our fair share of threats. So safety is top of mind for Kevin and I.

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[Anya Cain]

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[Kevin Greenlee]

N rakuten.com so the defendant in this case is a man named Cedric Jubilar, 38 years old. He's a it's a small town in France. He is accused of killing his wife Delphine. One interesting thing about this case is her body has never been found. No traces of her body have ever been found. And when you have a no body murder case, that obviously poses a challenge to prosecutors because can you even prove that the person is dead? But my understanding, at least here in the states that the conviction rates for no body homicide cases are actually a bit higher than the conviction cases for cases where there are a body. And the reason for that is it is really, really hard to win one of these cases. So a prosecutor is not likely to bring such a case unless they feel they have really strong evidence. It's not clear what the evidence is in this case, although it's been the Talk of France for five years. Apparently it said there's no real evidence, there's no forensic evidence of blood. He says that his wife just basically disappeared. There were two people who claimed he confessed to them, that he murdered her and buried her body. That area was dug up and no body was found. This couple, Mr. Jubilar and his wife Delphine, were having a lot of marital troubles. And it appears as if many of those troubles were. He's not really working, he's just laying at home all day smoking marijuana. And that raises the question, I mean, let's be blunt, no pun intended. If you have kind of a loser guy just hanging around at home all day, not really accomplishing much, is he really going to be capable all of a sudden of committing a perfect murder and getting rid of a body, leaving absolutely no evidence behind?

[Anya Cain]

Well, yeah, I mean, sure.

[Kevin Greenlee]

There were a couple of children. There's a six year old who, six years old at the time, remembers that there was like some sort of a fight or argument between husband and wife on the night that the wife went missing.

[Anya Cain]

I mean, I think a man. A lot of loser men have killed women, left little trace. I mean, let's not act like men. Certain men don't have a talent for something like that just because they don't apply themselves in any other way. You know, once it comes to that, I think people can luck out or people can be more motivated to. To. To do better. Maybe you're living off your wife and, you know, she's the one working, and that's all working out for you. But once that maybe the gravy train is stopping and there's a fit of rage, then you have a real incentive to really start cleaning up and hiding evidence. So to me, I don't think that's a good argument.

[Kevin Greenlee]

And he also would have had to have committed the murder while his children were sleeping. And so happens, yeah, it happens.

[Anya Cain]

But I'm sure we could find a bunch of cases that actually fit that exact sort of mechanism. Young children asleep, a dad kills mom.

[Kevin Greenlee]

But obviously to get a conviction, you need more than just, well, it happened.

[Anya Cain]

Or it could happen. Yeah, you need. It did happen because of this evidence.

[Kevin Greenlee]

A French newspaper said it was like an Inspector McGray novel.

[Anya Cain]

What?

[Kevin Greenlee]

That's a popular French character? Some of those novels are pretty good.

[Anya Cain]

Have you read them?

[Kevin Greenlee]

There's a ton of them. I've read maybe 10. And a couple of them were great. A few of them were good. A couple of them are, yeah.

[Anya Cain]

You're so literate. I Love it. I. Yeah, I mean, I don't know. I think you just have to wait for evidence to come out. And if there's a lot of evidence, there might be a lot of evidence at trial. There might not be enough to convince people, but I think it's important to just see what both sides say. That would be my, my recommend recommendation for the French people.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Apparently, he, he claims that she might have run off with isis, which doesn't seem too plausible.

[Anya Cain]

Okay, what, is there any evidence of that? Usually if people are recruited by isis, there's a pretty extensive online kind of indication of radicalization.

[Kevin Greenlee]

I'm going to start paying attention to this trial. It sounds very, very interesting because again, it's very difficult to prove a person has committed a murder if you can't even prove a murder has happened. So they must have had some reason. This trial is expected to last a month, so there must be quite a bit of evidence, but.

[Anya Cain]

Or it's real prosecutorial misconduct.

[Kevin Greenlee]

So, yeah, I'm curious, I'm curious, but just, just this bare quick look in a couple of articles about it, it is easy to understand why this case has caught the attention of the French people. I, I think when you do have things which, at least on the surface, don't seem to make a lot of sense, like how could this guy dispose of this body so perfectly? That gets, that gets your wheels turning, even if it's theoretically possible, you just, you just start wondering, I guess a big question.

[Anya Cain]

You may not know this and none of us may know it, but at this point. But like, I mean, if he had a lot of. It's been five years, right? If he had a lot of time to clean up, I don't know what was searched or when, but if they didn't search in the right place at the right time, and there's been plenty of time that's passed, then I know we all are trained by the CSI effect to assume that blood sticks around everywhere. And the reason we think that is because we watch a ton of these shows or listen to a ton of podcasts where one speck of blood was found clinging to the side of the bathtub. And that proved everything. But we're hearing about the success stories. We're not hearing about failures because those don't get documentaries made about them. So I think it's really important for us to all remember that, you know, you cannot assume. I don't like whenever, when anyone, someone, People come up to us and say things sometimes because they recognize us. And I always appreciate this and I understand why people think this way, but when someone's like, well, I don't understand how DNA wasn't left. Well, maybe because a number of factors that you, you don't understand because you're not in csi, you know, I mean, and like, nor am I, but I just. It's important that we never just assume, oh, there must be this or there must be that, nor should I think we should assume someone's guilty just because charges were pressed against them. You can have a prosecutor who's just not acting right.

[Kevin Greenlee]

He, he claims that his wife went missing on the night between December 15th and December 16th, 2020. He called police in the early morning hours of December 16th. It's also worth noting that between 3:54 and 9:52am on the morning of the 16th, he tried calling his wife one hundred and eighty five times.

[Anya Cain]

That, to me, doesn't hit either way. That could be someone who's worried about their wife, or it could be someone who's trying to look worried about their worried wife or someone. Yeah, that means nothing.

[Kevin Greenlee]

And spectators are arriving in the courthouse in the early morning hours, hoping for a seat inside the highly awaited trial that has captivated the nation. According to this article.

[Anya Cain]

What if we look on the news and like, there's a French version of us there? Oui, oui, yeah, kill French Anya and Kevin. No, I mean, but God help everyone trying to cover that. And, you know, I think that's. It sounds interesting. I'll be curious what the evidence against him is and what the defense's counter is. This ISIS story sounds pretty bizarre. Did she have a history of radical Islamist views?

[Kevin Greenlee]

From what we know, do, do we have listeners in France reach out to us, give us the skin, tell us.

[Anya Cain]

I'm, I'm fascinated by that though, again, I don't feel like, you know, you don't just join isis. I mean, I guess some teenagers kind of did, but I don't know, that just seems kind of a weird thing to. It would be like, you often hear, oh, she ran off with another man. But I mean, certainly, I guess running off the story, nice, you might die in the process. And that would make it so then you don't come back.

[Kevin Greenlee]

And people also indicate, we know there's reasons. Well, would this guy be able to pull off this perfect murder and get rid of the body? On the other hand, she had two kids that she loved. And if she thought that her husband wasn't able to take care of them, would she just leave and abandon her children to him?

[Anya Cain]

She's Obviously dead and obviously he had a motive. The question is, is there enough evidence to convict him? I think the other stuff, unless, unless he has evidence of her leaving, which we should all be open to. I think it's safe to say she's very likely dead. And I think whenever people get into, oh, he's kind of a bum or he's kind of a schlubby guy, you know, men do this all the time, they kill their wives. You don't have to be a rocket scientist, you just have to be violent and, you know, bad. And that's it. That's all you need to do. I mean, like, I'm sorry, it's just people want to over complicate everything in their minds because we've all watched these shows and it's like, ah, yes, everyone's going to be a genius level Hannibal Lecter type in order to get away with anything. No, you just have to be lucky. And having an amount of time to clean up and get rid of evidence benefits you. That's just it, you know, it's not. We, we expect too much from murderers. You don't really need that much. You can get lucky and you can just kind of, I don't know, go under the radar for a while now.

[Kevin Greenlee]

You know, Anya, one site in France, which we're talking about, France, is very well known, of course, is the Eiffel Tower. And a replica of the Eiffel Tower exists in Ohio, which I believe I've now seamlessly transitioned to our next story which takes place in Ohio.

[Anya Cain]

Thank you kindly. So this is a really bizarre one that somebody asked us to cover. Appreciate this person for letting us know about this rather bizarre situation. And this took place in Ohio in Gibson City. And this is a place that's. They, the, the news says it's about 30 miles from normal, Ohio. And what happened here was pretty abnormal. So this was on the hundred block of Ash street in Gibson City. And this occurred around 2:31am and the date was, let me look back. Cause I hate when news articles say like, oh, it was on Saturday. It's like just say the date. So it's. I know it's a style thing, it just annoys me. So it looks like it was on August 9th. So this is a while ago, but it's still ongoing, which is just. I'm going to read it to you and you're going to be like, what? My source for this was wglt, which was doing some good coverage of this, this man. Okay, so two police officers show up it's 2:30am and there's a report of a naked man outside a house. So they, they go and they contact David D. Jordan, who is the naked man. He was 70 years old. And he opens fire on them. He shoots both police officers. Now, thank goodness neither of them were killed. So that's, that's good. And one was hit in the arm and knee, One was shot in the hip. Both are out of the hospital at this point and they're on administrative leave. And neither of them fired back. It was just like, just kind of this blitz attack. So this guy shoots them and then his house catches on fire and he runs or he may. Look, one sighting had him. He's with a red bicycle. He's naked, his house is on fire. No one knows where he is, and no one still knows where he is. He's considered armed and dangerous. So if you happen to see this, like, old white dude wandering around, call 911. But the other tip line provided is 217-784-8666. So I mean, it's, it's an ongoing and serious situation. No one knows where he is and he's just running around after having shot two police officers. I just, I find this really bizarre because, like, you often think of a mass shooter or some kind of shooting incident as kind of being like contained at the scene or maybe they initially run and then they find them a few days later. But this happened in early August and we still don't know where this guy is. And this guy seemingly was always a problem. He may have had some sort of history of public in indecency. No surprise there. Sounds like a real weirdo. And yeah, I don't know. I'm glad those officers are, you know, alive, but I, I just find this, the story, bizarre. So hopefully, hopefully he gets found and incarcerated. I think you're next with Utah.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Utah, can you come up with a seamless transition as I did for you?

[Anya Cain]

Let's go west. I don't know.

[Kevin Greenlee]

So you better work on the seamless transitions. So this, this. My source for this is the Boulder Reporting Lab. Oh, and pardon me, this isn't Utah. It's actually Colorado.

[Anya Cain]

Wow. So much for seamless transitions. How'd you do this? What have you done?

[Kevin Greenlee]

I don't, for some reason.

[Anya Cain]

Oh, yeah, Wait, you told me about what the DA involved in this was. So why didn't I catch that? But it's your fault.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Well, it involves Robert Redford. Is the Sundance Film Festival in Utah?

[Anya Cain]

I don't know.

[Kevin Greenlee]

So I had Utah in My mind because of that. But this actually took place in the great state of Colorado. We were recently in Colorado enjoying meals together at the Moonlight Diner.

[Anya Cain]

Yeah, it's fun. CrimeCon was awesome.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Wonderful food at the Moonlight Diner. But I digress.

[Anya Cain]

You do?

[Kevin Greenlee]

Robert Redford, well known actor, recently passed away. So certain stories related to Robert Redford are getting a bit more attention, a burst of attention, if you will. And it turns out he has a bit of a connection to a 1983 murder case that happened at the University of Colorado. A journalism student named Sid Wells was shot and killed while he was at his condo in Boulder. And he was, as I mentioned, he was in college and he was in a pretty serious relationship with Robert Redford's daughter and they were very close. And the victim's mother said there were times that she felt her son's case was kind of overshadowed because of Robert Redford. But then she realized, you know, it's Robert Redford and his connection to this case, small as it is, is what keeps people talking about it. And the case is open, although there is an arrest warrant out. And this is one of those frustrating cases where, well, I'll say the person who is the arrest warrant is out for is the roommate of the victim. His name is Thane Smyka. He was actually arrested and in custody. But then the case went to a grand jury and the district attorney, Alex Hunter, declined to press charges, saying whether he didn't feel there was enough evidence. And after that, this man was set free and then disappeared. And I should mention that the district attorney was a man named Alex Hunter. Who, where do we know that name?

[Anya Cain]

Anya, this is the DA who bungled the JonBenet Ramsey investigation of Boulder County. He is perhaps one of the most useless district attorneys in a high profile case that I've ever read about.

[Kevin Greenlee]

And so Anya has some pretty strong views.

[Anya Cain]

Yeah, I do. I think he bungled that. So what happened in that case? People are unfamiliar with this because for some reason this case has just been, you know, whitewashed in the media for, for decades and you know, whatever I like feel about it the way you want to feel about it, but the facts are the facts. And a grand jury recommended and, and, and returned charges on John and Patty Ramsey to basically it was basically, I think it was like child endangerment. And you know, they found probable cause for that and Hunter did not prosecute them. Now it is supposed to be up to a prosecutor to look at, look at things and say, okay, I can't get to reasonable doubt. And that's what he claims he. He felt in this situation. But I think. I think when you look at what actually happened in that case, it's his decision there becomes a lot more baffling and perhaps bizarre.

[Kevin Greenlee]

And so in this case, the roommate was arrested, and Mr. Hunter felt that there wasn't enough evidence. He allowed the man to go free. He disappeared in 2011. There was new evidence brought forward which dealt with some of the pellets, some of the shotgun pellets that had been taken from the body of the victim. And so a new arrest warrant was arrested for this man, but he has not been apprehended. So hopefully, perhaps this burst of publicity from the death of Mr. Redford will attract some attention. I've seen a number of outlets covering this story.

[Anya Cain]

Yeah, I hope people figure out where this creep is. So he. Yeah, there's a. There's like, a FBI Most Wanted poster out there for him. So people should, I think, take a look at that. Kind of looks at some different styles he might be wearing his hair in. And I will note that he does not have a valid US Passport. And it's. He may have lived in Yalapa, Mexico, and he also may be in California. Those are some possible theories. So people should definitely take. Take a look here.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Shall we move on?

[Anya Cain]

Yeah. So my source for this last one, and it goes back to stalking. So I guess I did kind of cinch it all together. Kevin is a Rolling Stone. So I just thought this was interesting because it was, like, a legal situation, and I'd be curious what your thoughts on it are, but.

[Kevin Greenlee]

And this is like, Mick Jagger, or is this, like, the publication Rolling Stone?

[Anya Cain]

I said my source is Rolling Stone. So, like, Mick Jagger didn't come to our house and, like, fill me in on this situation. So I'm not keeping an eye on. Maybe you can piece together the context clues.

[Kevin Greenlee]

I'm not keeping an eye on you 24 7.

[Anya Cain]

Me and Keith Richards were just talking about the news.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Also for. I know. Maybe you just had a dream.

[Anya Cain]

So you think I'm getting my news from the dream. A dream version of Mick Jagger is coming to me and telling me what's going on in crime. So everything I just made may have said may have just come from that. That was my ultimate source. Is that what you're saying?

[Kevin Greenlee]

I wanted to check, but let's go.

[Anya Cain]

I'm glad you checked. I'm glad. I'm glad. That's really good. Thank you for checking. So this is Rolling Stone magazine.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Thank you.

[Anya Cain]

And this was a situation I've talked a little bit about. Taylor Swift is obviously a megastar, megastar, musician, creative force, and she's been stalked herself a number of times. And in addition to that, her fiance, Travis Kelsey Kelsey of the Kansas City Chiefs has been burglarized. There have actually been some gangs that specialize in sort of knowing when athletes or celebrities are out of town and burglarizing their house. And so they've both been kind of victims of crime in that way. But what happened recently, and our moderator let us know about this, because they thought we would find it interesting, is that a man was arrested. A Justin Lee Fisher, who was 48 years old, was caught on September 15 at Travis Kelsey's property in Leawood, Kansas. And he was apparently climbing the fence. And this turns out not to. Just not. He was, you know, you think, okay, a burglar. But this was actually a process server. This guy was apparently attempting to serve Swift deposition papers for this Justin Baldoni, Blake Lively lawsuit, which we've talked about.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Previously on the program.

[Anya Cain]

Talked about previously on the program. So, first of all, process servers, is that something that you're, like, allowed to do? Just, like, do things like climb a fence to get to somebody? I mean, we've seen some pretty. Remember there was that. That celebrity couple, Olivia Wilde, I think the actress and director. She was, like, served on stage, like Comic Con or something. And that was. People saw that as poor form.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Yeah.

[Anya Cain]

But with something like. I mean, but that's obviously not illegal, this, you know, Trespassing.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Yeah. Breaking into someone's property. That's.

[Anya Cain]

You're not allowed to do that, even if you're a process server.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Yeah. Being a process server doesn't.

[Anya Cain]

You know, I almost wonder if they did. This guy did it just to get the headlines, almost. You know, like. Like, I'll go anywhere. Or if Baldoni's team was basically like, yeah, you do something, and, you know, like, there'll be a ton of headlines around this, and it'll kind of drag her into it more. I. I almost feel like this seems, like, calculated as a result, because I would just imagine this would not be in the best practices for process servers in. In a situation like that.

[Kevin Greenlee]

I agree completely.

[Anya Cain]

You know, I mean, I. As someone who's been served and it wasn't for a bad thing, and I wasn't really, like, a material person in the situation, but it was not like this. No one was breaking in. It was all very professional and above board. Above board. And I also wasn't hiding from anybody. So it was all you know, I just got a call and basically was like, okay.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Well, actually what happened was someone left a note on our door saying, hey, I want to serve you. Where are you? And we called them and say, hey, why don't you just come over? So, yeah, we were very easy about it.

[Anya Cain]

We were very easy going. But, yeah, no, it just seems. It just almost seems like there's something calculated about it because why would you do it this way otherwise? Unless you're just stupid, which is always, I guess, possible, but especially when she's been a victim of stalking and he's been burglarized. I feel like this person may be lucky to be alive. Super isn't coming over the fence. That's not, you know, the security team, I imagine, would be pretty responsive to that. And what's interesting, though, is part of this comes and so, yeah, apparently this, this situation, there's a, you know. Yeah, so there's like some kind of, like, legal situation over that. But then what's interesting is that apparently the federal judge in, in the Baldoni Lively case has denied Baldoni's request to depose Swift. So they're going to trial over sexual harassment and smear campaigns and things like that. And U.S. district Judge Lewis Lehman, he, you know, like, basically said, you guys had a lot of time to do this. You've had a lot of sick discovery. And what Baldoni seems arguing is that Swift said she would go to a deposition, but she can't do so before October 20th. She's got a new album coming out. So it's like, you know, timing wise.

[Kevin Greenlee]

And.

[Anya Cain]

You know, and, and meanwhile, this is, this is Swift's attorney, J. Douglas Baldrige, quote, as counsel for the parties. No, since the inception of this matter, we have consistently maintained that my client has no material role in this action and, quote, that she did not agree to a deposition, end quote. But if she was, quote, forced, she had informed them that she could only do it after October 20th. So, yeah, it's interesting. I thought it was interesting that the judge was kind of basically like, you know, you guys had a lot of.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Time for this, and when you were served, you were kind of like the Taylor Swift of the suit, because you had, you had, you had nothing material to add. You were just kind of being dragged in because they thought, well, this might annoy some other people. Is that fair to say?

[Anya Cain]

It's very fair to say.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Because you often say, I'm just like, I'm just like Travis, right?

[Anya Cain]

I, I, no, I don't say that. We're not like, I do think. I do think it was kind of a similar situation like that, though. Just kind of like, let's just drag this thing out. So it's just interesting. I just was like, wow, process servers. I mean, that's a probably a pretty tough job. I would imagine people having to go around and give people stuff that they probably don't want to get. So you do have to get creative, I would imagine. But I would also imagine. And if any of the process servers listen, I'd. I'd be interested in hearing from you guys because I think that's an interesting job. But I would imagine that most people, you get creative, but you can't, like, get creative with the law or you can't just do whatever. You can't, like, crash into someone's house, Kool Aid man style. And then.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Pretty creative. It would be pretty creative if someone wanted to serve you and now they contacted you and said, hey, I'm a process server. I'd love to come on the show. And then they come on, just served. That get you.

[Anya Cain]

That way they get you. They're always looking out. But, yeah, but I don't know, it was just interesting. So that's my thing. And now we can.

[Kevin Greenlee]

So are we still doing stories or is that done?

[Anya Cain]

I guess we can do them if.

[Kevin Greenlee]

You have something to share, but because we're still.

[Anya Cain]

Oh, wait, we should still promote things.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Yeah, we're only doing the stories to make people listen to the promotional announcements, which isn't really good thinking because no one likes the stories. So no one's saying people liked your stories. I think people love your stories.

[Anya Cain]

Well, I'm citing actual people who said that I like Kevin's stories. I'm sitting here like, well, okay. Interesting. Interesting phrasing. No, I'm just kidding. I. So this is.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Let's talk about these, the promotional announcements.

[Anya Cain]

After we keep on asking me, okay, where. Where are all the events, Anya? Well, I try to say them in every episode, every cheat sheet, and I also have put them in all of the show notes of every single episode. So if you go to murdersheetpodcast.com events, you can see all of our upcoming events. We've still got a couple left. We're doing on, you know, today when this episode comes out, Friday, September 26th.

[Kevin Greenlee]

We're eating grops today, aren't we? We're going to the Fish Shock. Fish Shock. We're going to the Fish Shack in Milford, Indiana, and I'm going to get this big, huge bucket of fish. And I'M gonna sit there and eat it. I'm gonna make you watch.

[Anya Cain]

If you see a faded sign on the side of the road that says 15 miles to the Fish Shack. Yeah, that's what you're doing. It's a B52 song. Oh, love Shack. Come on. I know more about 80s music than you do. So, Kendallville, 6 to 8pm get your tickets on our website. You can click a link and then you can get the tickets from there. So come at the last minute. Come hang out with us. Friday, October 3rd, we're going to be in Franklin, Indiana. Doors open at 5. Event starts at 6. It's ticketed. Get your tickets again. It's on our website, murdersheetpodcast.com events Saturday, October 11th, we're going to Louisville, Kentucky for the Louisville Book Festival.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Lulu. That's what they'll call you.

[Anya Cain]

They better not. And October 20th, I'm sorry, October 18th, which is a Saturday, we're going to be signing books at the Barnes and.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Noble in Carmel from noon to 4pm That's Carmel, Indiana.

[Anya Cain]

Yeah, we're not. Yes. And Sunday, October 26th, in Bloomington, Indiana, we're going to be going, doing a true crime panel at the Bloomington book festival at 1pm get your tickets. And Saturday, November 1st, we're going to the Barnes and Noble in Lafayette, Indiana from 1pm to 4pm Signing some books in Lafayette.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Lafayette, Indiana, that's the home of the Boilermakers, right?

[Anya Cain]

Yes. Purdue, your father's alma mater.

[Kevin Greenlee]

My father went to school at Lafayette, yes.

[Anya Cain]

And so this is a situation where if you want us for a smaller event or if you are a store owner or manager or whatever you want to inquire, send us an email to murdersheetmail.com we're definitely open to that.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Or even if you want, for a.

[Anya Cain]

Larger event or a larger event, that would also be very good. And we can try to work something out. And, you know, we're actually going to be zooming some places, so there'll be, there'll be different options. So I think it'd be cool. And if you're, yeah. If you, if you. For a festival or for whatever, just like let us know and just murder [e-mail]. just let us know the timing and.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Let us know if there's a place nearby which sells fish.

[Anya Cain]

Yes, that's very important for Kevin. You can kind of lure him in with the promise of some good fried fish.

[Kevin Greenlee]

That's how you got me.

[Anya Cain]

Yeah, it was like a trap. I was like, put all these plates of fried Fish on the sidewalk. And he just kind of came up to me.

[Kevin Greenlee]

It led me up to the justice of the peace.

[Anya Cain]

Yeah. And then he was trapped. Yeah. God, I. I think I. Anyways, but I think that. And then we have. We're doing, you know, interviews with different people. If you have a favorite true crime creator or whatnot that you want us to talk to and, you know, you're willing to do this, feel free to send them a little note saying interview them and. Or just send them our email or whatever. You know, we'd love to talk to as many people as possible about Shadow of the Bridge. Shadow of the Bridge, I think is. Is. Is a book that is. Is basically people as people are reading it. People are talking to us, and they're saying, I understand the Delphi case now, which, as people who've been in the Delphi case forever, is really heartening and remarkable because it is so confusing and all over the place. And I think people are finally having the truth dawn on them, and I want to make sure that happens for as many people as possible. And I would like to talk about this case with. With anyone who will hear us. So if you have someone, if you can make that connection, we appreciate it. If you. If you don't want to do that, just send us the name of the creator or whatever, and we'll try to make it happen. What do you think about this? You look very confused.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Well, I'm trying to think of a story, so. Are you telling a story, too?

[Anya Cain]

I don't. I don't have a story.

[Kevin Greenlee]

You've got, like, a big bag of anecdotes. You're like a peddler with your pack. You're always walking around with your stories. You just, like, reach in the bag and just pull one out.

[Anya Cain]

You always made me sound freaking ridiculous. You're a menace to society. You literally are. Okay, I have a story.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Okay, do it.

[Anya Cain]

All right. Do you have one?

[Kevin Greenlee]

If you have one, I have one.

[Anya Cain]

Okay. Did I tell my bike story about bicycling to a 8k? I don't think I did. Okay. And this is. I feel like my stories aren't funny. I feel like my stories are just, like, make people sad or like, you know, like, oh, that's kind of. It's kind of depressing. So get ready, everybody, for a bunch of laughs.

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[Anya Cain]

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[Kevin Greenlee]

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[Anya Cain]

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[Kevin Greenlee]

By Liberty Mutual Insurance Company Affiliates excludes Massachusetts.

[Anya Cain]

So when I was in college, I, I don't know. Well actually throughout my life I've, you know, tried to lose weight and I've lost weight and I've gained weight and whatever, it's, it's never good situation. And you know, sometimes I'm like, I'm the person who's like, oh, I'm going to sign up for an 8K and that's going to make me really have to work out because I'm not going to just go to an 8k unprepared. Plot twist. I did and so, so I do that did it. It was a Busch Gardens Christmas AK in Williamsburg. So I'm like, okay, I'm going to do that. Totally blow it off. Totally. I'm not ready. But I'm like, listen, I want to go get the shirt and the participation medal because I already paid for it and I'll just kind of jog walk it and it'll look really sad. And so I'm like okay, no problem. And I'm thinking like, I don't know, I'm just this, I just now I'm like regret telling this because I just sound like an idiot. So I, I didn't have a car in college and I also didn't know how to drive. I had a driver's license but I kind of like did enough. And then I just didn't drive for a long time and I wasn't a confident driver so I didn't do it because I was like, I'm in college. I can walk everywhere, whatever. And, you know, my job is on campus. I don't really have to do anything. I'm not trying to go out and drive around. Fine. So I go and, you know, I'm kind of like, at the last minute, because I've like, totally left this all to the last minute. I'm kind of asking people, I'm like, hey, can you drive me there? And they're like, no. And I'm like, okay, fair. Because I'm like, asking you to wake up at like 6am and it's the night before just in case, like, they weren't being bad friends. I was being a bad friend by even asking anybody that. But I was kind of like, I wasn't too stressed because I was like, no worries. I've looked it up on Google Maps and I can easily take a bicycle there. And I'll just. Because I had a bicycle. So I'm like, I'll just bicycle there. I'm not. I wasn't really using the bicycle that often. I was just like, you know, I. I'd kind of use it maybe a little bit around campus, but most of the time I would just walk places. So it wasn't a big deal. No problem. I'm gonna go there, gonna get my little trophy. Not trophy, a metal. And I'm gonna get my little shirt, and I'm gonna make a fool of myself and it'll be fine. And so I bicycle there. And I guess I had the map open on the car version of the bicycle instead of like a, you know, bicycle maps. Like, you can get that and like, how to bicycle there in a safe way. But I think I must have had it on the car version because it actually sent me onto the highway. I don't know if it was like a highway. It was like a road a bicycle shouldn't have been on. I guess I'll just say that because I don't really remember a lot of this. I think I just black part of it out. But it was really scary. And I was just thinking, like, what. What have I done? Like, I was like, on the side of the road. I'm like, I could die today. And then I got there and it was fine. But then I had a bicycle back and I was like, okay, this time I'm gonna go a different way. So I go a different way, and then suddenly I'm in this fucking, like, tunnel. And again, like, should not have a bicycle in there. And I'm just thinking, like, what the. Like, what am I. What am I doing with my life? It was really like an epiphany. And I remember being like, I'm gonna go direct. It was Sunday. I'm gonna go directly to Mass if I get out of this tunnel. And I did. And so I went directly to Mass afterwards with my little medal and my little shirt. And I was just like, real, a sweaty mess. But I was like, I'm happy to be alive.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Wow.

[Anya Cain]

Yeah. I tried to. I was. I was looking. I was like, maybe I can go over the tunnel. But I was like, I can't climb that. So it was. It was an ordeal. I'm just an idiot. I mean, honestly. And, like, I just. I think. I just. I just. I don't think things through sometimes. So that's. That's why I over.

[Kevin Greenlee]

No, you.

[Anya Cain]

I over plan now. I over plan now because of stuff like that. Because that's where I'm gonna be, on a bicycle on the side of the freeway if I'm not. If I don't, like, completely lock myself down with alerts and reminders.

[Kevin Greenlee]

The trauma of that event has changed you forever.

[Anya Cain]

Not specifically, just that. It's just more of, like. That's an extreme example of where my natural inclinations take me. So I have to be disciplined and, frankly, neurotic, because otherwise it's anarchy around here. It goes. I go nuts. And suddenly I'm in that situation, and I don't even know why I'm doing it. So, anyways, hopefully this doesn't sound too much like a cry for help. I don't do stuff like that anymore. I was in college. I obviously thought I was invincible, and I ended up in a bad situation on my bicycle. But hopefully.

[Kevin Greenlee]

But you're fine.

[Anya Cain]

I'm fine now. Kevin wouldn't let me do that now. I would just not go.

[Kevin Greenlee]

This is why I don't exercise. It's too risky to get there.

[Anya Cain]

Oh, man. Anyways, what's your story?

[Kevin Greenlee]

I guess this is kind of like an origin story. So it goes back to. I go to elementary school at a school called Richards. And it's always strange, by the way, when you're an adult and you go back to your elementary school, you feel like at some point they must have secretly knocked it down and then rebuilt it smaller to try to trick you, because everything looks smaller. But what you need to know about Richards is at the time I went there, there was a playground. It was a fine playground. And then off to the side of the playground, there were a couple of things, one of which is a little embarrassing because it's like. It makes me sound very old because obviously this was designed at a time when people didn't understand what fun was, because there was, like, a big tree, and around the tree they had, like, plaster horses. And it's like, why would. Why would anybody think a child would want to play with plaster horses that are immovable? Because you can sit on the plaster horse and be really uncomfortable, but it's not moving.

[Anya Cain]

Well, I think, like, you could use your imagination.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Oh, have none of that fou farah. And also, I say it's plastic. I don't know if it was plaster. Whatever these horses were built of, it wasn't durable because pieces of the horses always fell off. It looked like these horses were the victims of some awful wasting disease.

[Anya Cain]

God.

[Kevin Greenlee]

So then, just past the horses, this is even worse. There's this large. I'm going to call it a puddle, but it's bigger than a puddle. There's this large collection of stagnant water that never seems to go away. So it's much, much bigger than a puddle, but it's much smaller than a traditional body of water. And it's always out there. And there's, like, mosquitoes and stuff by it. And it's like, to this day, sometimes when I think about it, I wonder, why was that allowed? Why didn't anybody go and do something about it? So this is your background. So fifth grade, my teacher says to my class, what we're going to do is we're going to, as a class project, do our own newspaper, which we'll call the Richard's Republic. And everybody gets assigned to do a page or two. And so a friend of mine and I, we get a page, and I'm sure this is how it worked when you worked at Business Insider. No matter. You can do whatever you want with your page. It's complete freedom. And so my friend and I, we thought. We said, well, let's try to make some news. Let's go straight to the top. Let's do an interview with the principal, a man named Mr. Brock. So Mr. Brock agrees to an interview. And one of the questions we asked him was about this stagnant puddle, which the kids called, I believe they called it Richard's Lake. So we said to him, what do you think about Richard's Lake? And he said, well, you know, I think a lot of your kids, Students will agree with me on this. And then he said something bland about it. So we take our little notes and we go. And we went around a transcript of our interview.

[Anya Cain]

You, Isaac, Chotnered him.

[Kevin Greenlee]

And so we wrote our question and we wrote that he said, I think a lot of you kids or students will agree with me on this for some reason. He gets an advanced copy of the interview and he's like this kids are students line, that's going to destroy me. We got to take this out. And he says this to my 5th grade teacher and she says, oh no, it's cute, it's fine, we're not going to make him take it out. And so my teacher, the principal, Mr. Brock, just freaks out. You know, he accepts what my teacher says. But then I think he goes back to his office and he's just stewing about it. Maybe he's upset with himself for doing the interview. Our hard hitting questions, he's stewing about it. And so then he calls in another fifth grade teacher who had nothing to do with the project. And he, by the account I heard is the classic red faced rant where he's saying, oh my God, how many parents are going to see this kids or students line? What are they going to think? This is just going to be a huge disaster. And so the other fifth grade teacher goes to my teacher and said what the heck is going on? Because she was baffled. And then my teacher feels bad because she doesn't want to be putting other teachers in that sort of position. So she calls me and my friend in and says we're going to make this change and I'm sorry about it. And I remember thinking that was up to that time. I think I had a lot of respect for authority figures and it just never occurred to me that someone in authority would be quite so ridiculous or absurd. And that taught me a lot about freedom of the press and freedom of speech. And then I remember about a week after the paper we did was distributed, the Mr. Brock happens to see me as I'm going to one of my classes and he's standing in a hallway by himself and he's just looking kind of sad and embarrassed and he says, oh Kevin, good job with that interview. And I just, yeah, and I just remember he looked really kind of sad and pathetic. And certainly after that it was difficult for me to have any respect for him. And I think after that I never automatically respected someone just because of their authority.

[Anya Cain]

I just, I don't what, what would compel somebody to care that much.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Yeah, who cares? Kids or students?

[Anya Cain]

Because I thought it was going to be like I, I remember you telling me the story. For some reason I thought it was like, oh, he didn't want the lake story to get out there because, like, that might be, like, people might be upset about that.

[Kevin Greenlee]

He should have been more embarrassed that the lake existed or that we have these ridiculous plaster horses. My understanding. I looked it up at one point. One of the plaster horses was restored and is now in the lobby of the school.

[Anya Cain]

That fits that. See, that makes more sense because that would be like the historical whatever, but, like falling apart while kids are playing on. It seems dangerous.

[Kevin Greenlee]

But yeah, it's. It's. If that. The plaster horses thing also just disturbs me because it's like, that's like what you'd see on a playground in, like, the 1700s. Some. Some crude representation of a horse that's very uncomfortable and it does nothing and no one wants anything to do with it. So, yeah, that. It makes me feel very old.

[Anya Cain]

Why do you think Brok was so weird about this? Was he kind of like a basket case in other ways?

[Kevin Greenlee]

This is my most direct experience with him, so I have no explanation. It's very, very odd.

[Anya Cain]

That's crazy.

[Kevin Greenlee]

But, yeah, that changed the way I looked at freedom of the press and things like that. It was so ridiculous.

[Anya Cain]

That is so ridiculous. That's just insane. You guys are like Woodward and Bernstein of the fifth grade class. Even though, like, it's not a big deal, it just doesn't matter, kids or students. I think people sometimes don't realize that a lot of stuff just doesn't matter in life and you just gotta let it go.

[Kevin Greenlee]

So if you have a copy of the Richard's Republic and you see this awkward white space in the middle of my interview section, now you know the rest of the story.

[Anya Cain]

You've exposed him. Finally.

[Kevin Greenlee]

I Paul Harvey'd him.

[Anya Cain]

Yeah.

[Kevin Greenlee]

So are we done?

[Anya Cain]

I think we're done. Thank you for that story. All right, bye, everybody.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Thanks so much for listening to the Murder Sheet. If you have a tip concerning one of the cases we cover, please email [e-mail]. if you have actionable information about an unsolved crime, please report it to the appropriate authorities.

[Anya Cain]

If you're interested in joining our Patreon, that's available at www.patreon.com murdersheet if you want to tip us a bit of money for records requests, you can do so at www. Buymeacoffee.com murdersheet. We very much appreciate any support.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Special thanks to Kevin Tyler Greenlee, who composed the music for the Murder Sheet and who you can find on the [e-mail] if you're looking to talk with.

[Anya Cain]

Other listeners about a case we've covered. You can join the Murder Sheet discussion group on Facebook. We mostly focus our time on research and reporting, so we're not on social media much. We do try to check our email account, but we ask for patience as we often receive a lot of messages. Thanks again for listening.