The Cheat Sheet: Body Bags and Betrayal

Summary

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Murder Sheet: The Cheat Sheet – Body Bags and Betrayal

Episode Date: April 10, 2026
Hosts: Áine Cain (journalist) & Kevin Greenlee (attorney)

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Episode Overview

In this Cheat Sheet episode of Murder Sheet, Áine and Kevin traverse the globe and the United States to discuss disturbing trends in sexual violence, missteps in cold case investigations, a heartbreaking child abuse case, and alarming legal misconduct related to AI in the justice system. The hosts bring their signature blend of rigorous reporting, legal insight, and candid conversation to unpack the issues behind recent headlines, often fueled by listener input. While the subject matter is heavy, the hosts maintain an engaging, authentic dynamic, complete with moments of levity and anecdotes about their own lives and work.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

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1. “Rape Academies”: Online Communities Facilitating Sexual Abuse

[03:31–13:50]

• Main Story: Áine discusses a CNN investigative report on global online communities where men exchange tips and resources on drugging and raping women—sometimes their own partners. These networks, sometimes referred to as "rape academies," foster and escalate dangerous criminal behavior, with discussions covering methods, sourcing drugs, evading detection, and even live-streaming assaults for cryptocurrency.
• Case Example: Discussion of Dominique and Giselle Pellicott in France—Dominique was convicted of drugging his wife and facilitating multiple sexual assaults on her by other men.
• Sociological Aspect: Áine notes, “What we have here is people plotting oftentimes to do it to their own wives or girlfriends. So it’s like this breach of trust… That’s very, very disturbing.” [05:38]
• Details from the Report: The site Motherless.com was found hosting disturbing “sleep content” with incriminating hashtags. Some users offered to ship incapacitating drugs worldwide.
• Victim Testimony: A UK woman described her husband drugging and raping her for years, leading to his conviction—challenging social assumptions about marital rape.
• Public Health Guidance: Áine shares practical advice for recognizing symptoms of being drugged, emphasizing the urgency of prompt medical testing to aid justice and prevent serial offending.
• Key Quote: “You love their husbands, they love their boyfriends. They trust them. And then to be violated in this way…I think that’s a very scary thing…unfortunately, oftentimes we have to be worried about the people in our life versus a stranger.” [13:18]

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2. Cold Case Mistrial: DNA, Used Body Bags, and a Delayed Justice

[19:09–30:41]

• Case: The 1986 murder of child Kathleen Marie Flynn in Connecticut—after a long-awaited trial, proceedings were abruptly halted due to late-breaking revelations: a police officer emailed the prosecutor with concerns that, per a remark by famed criminologist Dr. Henry Lee, the victim’s body may have been transported in a used body bag, introducing a risk of DNA contamination.
• Legal Implications: Judge declared a mistrial to allow the defense time to investigate potential evidence contamination. Both hosts express empathy for Flynn’s family and frustration that such a basic protocol breach went unaddressed for decades.
• Critical Inquiry: Áine probes, “I find the timing a little bit odd, like this guy just happened to remember this… makes me feel a little weird that this guy’s kind of inserting himself into this at this time.” [24:51]
• Defense Rights: Both hosts agree—however inconvenient, the defense must be able to investigate such contamination flags.
• Forensic Concerns: Discussion of touch DNA, chain of custody, and the uncommon but possible scenarios that could explain exculpatory DNA transfer.
• Key Quote: “No one should be reusing body bags anyway. But it was the 80s… I mean, I’m not—a that doesn’t excuse it… But … if it’s touch DNA, then I start becoming extremely concerned because, it’s like, okay, maybe that is contamination.” [27:34]
• Outcome: A new trial is possible, but only after contamination issues are thoroughly vetted by both sides.

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3. Tragedy in North Carolina: Escalation to Infant Murder

[30:48–39:48]

• Story Arc: Áine profiles the troubled history of Timothy Michael Blake Thorne in North Carolina, whose criminal record reflects escalating offenses from threats and property crime to armed violence.
• Recent Tragedy: In September 2024, authorities responded to the cardiac arrest of Thorne's 3-month-old daughter, who died after intensive medical attempts to save her. A year and a half of investigation resulted in Thorne being charged with murder and felony child abuse (March 2026).
• Sociological Reflection: The hosts examine the phenomenon of “frequent flyers” in the criminal justice system, lamenting the cycle of recidivism and resource strain leading toward catastrophic outcomes.
• Caveat: Áine cautions, “I don't want to assume the worst against Mr. Thorne… But certainly if this bears out… it’s a situation where you just have someone kind of careening through life, has no business being around a child, and ends up taking their own child’s life… It seems antithetical to nature.” [38:27]
• Kevin on Instinct: “There’s a basic instinct there to protect your child.” [39:15]

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4. Legal Ethics Collapse: Prosecutor’s AI Catastrophe in Georgia

[43:24–59:11]

• Case Overview: Kevin details a shocking incident in Georgia’s Supreme Court—Clayton County DA’s office attorney Deborah Leslie is caught referencing non-existent and misquoted case law in a murder appeal. The cause: she relied on AI to draft the filings, leading to fabrication and serious professional jeopardy.
• Courtroom Moment: "Suddenly one of the justices calls to her attention: some of the cases you mentioned in your filings, they don’t exist. And… some of the cases you cite… your quotes from them are made up or they don’t support the position you say they do." [47:13]
• Analysis: Both hosts sharply criticize the trend of using AI as a shortcut in critical legal work, warning that it causes intellectual atrophy and erodes professional standards. They demand harsher consequences to deter such misconduct.
• Key Quotes:
  • Áine: “If you are in a position where you are using AI in a way that's supposed to replace your own critical thinking… you are causing your brain and your thinking abilities to atrophy, and you’re becoming stupider.” [48:41]
  • Kevin: “You expect so much of an attorney because they're like our country’s royalty.” [54:32]
  • Áine: “I hold a prosecutor to a higher standard, frankly… you’re not even putting in the work you need to do for, again, on a murder case, it’s so serious… There have to be severe consequences.” [51:42]
• Consequences: The DA issues a statement; the attorney faces bar discipline, and the fake citations will not be used in prosecuting the actual murder case.

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5. Notable Quotes & Moments

Áine on Marital Rape Myths (Global Online Abuse, 09:31):
“Just because I was married to this guy does not mean he’s entitled to do that. People almost feel, well, he’s your husband and you didn’t feel anything because you were asleep, so it’s not a big deal. And it is. It’s a huge deal… It’s rape, there’s no, like, it’s rape or it isn’t.”

Áine on True Crime Perspective (65:20):
“One thing about studying true crime as much as we have is it makes me appreciate on some level that many of these violent crimes and very scary crimes that we do research are incredibly rare. … Situational awareness, good. Constant paranoia and fear probably not justified…”

Kevin on Forensic Sloppiness (Body Bag Mistrial, 29:01):
“There’s other instances in this case of less than ideal practice. For instance, a state lab employee’s DNA was actually found in a sample that was taken from the pants of the victim.”

Kevin’s Dream Anecdote (Silly Segment, 62:39):
“I’ve never had a dream that I thought was real until a couple years being married to you. … Someone was trying to push my face down into the pillow and suffocate me—like I was the Jack Nicholson character in One Flew Over the Cuckoo’s Nest.”

Hosts on AI’s Fundamental Flaw (Legal AI Fiasco, 53:13):
Áine: “Generative AI… is designed, in my view, to also tell people what they want to hear. So when you’re researching factual events… don’t take what it’s telling you at face value.”

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6. Episode Structure & Tone

• Tone: Candid, deeply empathetic to victims, sometimes grim but often leavened by the hosts’ rapport, mutual teasing, and personal asides.
• Language: Direct and unvarnished, especially when tackling topics such as sexual violence, legal failures, and professional integrity.
• Format:
  • Each story introduced with location and light banter
  • Detailed source attribution; listener-requested stories highlighted
  • Legal commentary delivered with accessible analogies
  • Occasional humor and couple’s anecdotes to break up heavy content
  • Listener engagement via direct questions and personal stories

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Timestamps for Major Segments

• [03:31] – Online “Rape Academies” / Global sexual abuse networks
• [19:09] – Body Bag Mistrial in Connecticut cold case
• [30:48] – North Carolina case: Escalating criminal behavior to infant murder
• [43:24] – Georgia Supreme Court: Prosecutor’s AI-generated legal citations scandal
• [62:39] – Personal anecdote: Nightmares and the effects of true crime
• [65:20] – Reflection on the rarity of most extreme true crime events

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Takeaways for Listeners

• Crime and Betrayal Can Be Closest to Home: Many serious crimes—especially sexual violence or homicide—are perpetrated by trusted individuals, not strangers, undermining common assumptions featured in media and folklore.
• The Fragility of Justice: Even in high-profile cold cases, small procedural errors (or late revelations about them) can derail decades of progress and reopen old wounds for families.
• Legal System Vulnerabilities: Attempts to automate complex legal work with AI can result in real harm to justice, underscoring the irreplaceability of careful human research and ethical diligence.
• Empathy and Awareness Matter: Staying alert—to both social and procedural red flags—can build safer communities and fairer courts, whether by noticing symptoms of assault drugs or questioning evidence contamination.
• Personal Impact: Even for professionals, immersing in grim subjects can have psychological effects; breaks and boundaries are important for long-term wellbeing.

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This episode delivers a mix of global concern, forensic scrutiny, and an alert for professional vigilance—all with the genuine, at times darkly humorous, approach Murder Sheet fans expect.

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Transcript

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[Anya Cain]

I'm Anya, and today we're going to cover a couple of different cases all around the country and around the world, including some cases involving some pretty, pretty big errors.

[Kevin Greenlee]

So internationally.

[Anya Cain]

Yes.

[Kevin Greenlee]

So you're going global?

[Anya Cain]

Yes. Content WARNING this episode contains discussion of murder and violence, including rape and murder of children. Where are you stepping on my frigging opening? What are you doing?

[Kevin Greenlee]

I apologize. You always talk about how, like, oh, we're going to go to Florida. That's the Sunshine State. Now you're going global. Is there like, a nickname for the whole Earth? Did people. And you're going to be mad about this, but did I see somebody once refer to Earth as, like, the Big blue ball? Is that the nickname for the Earth? Adya.

[Anya Cain]

Just leaving.

[Kevin Greenlee]

We're visiting the Earth. So, I mean, shouldn't we have to visit?

[Anya Cain]

Are you implying that we're aliens? Do we need the conspiracy theorists to latch onto that?

[Kevin Greenlee]

Anya, Anya, Anya.

[Anya Cain]

Begonia style. Here's the thing. I. Yeah. I don't know. I mean, I don't know. An Earth nickname. You're going.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Should you make one up?

[Anya Cain]

No, you can. I died. I'd be dying to hear you do that, though.

[Sponsor/Ad Voice]

What did Carl Sagan call it?

[Kevin Greenlee]

Didn't he have a poetic name for the Earth?

[Anya Cain]

I don't know.

[Sponsor/Ad Voice]

Why don't you?

[Anya Cain]

But I'm eager to move on.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Yeah, I'll come back to this in a second. You do whatever.

[Anya Cain]

Can I do the music? Thank you. Jeez. My name is Anya Cain. I'M a journalist.

[Kevin Greenlee]

And I'm Kevin Greenlee. I'm an attorney.

[Anya Cain]

And this is the Murder Sheet.

[Kevin Greenlee]

We're a true crime podcast focused on original reporting, interviews and deep dives into murder cases. We're the Murder Sheet.

[Anya Cain]

And this is the Cheat sheet. Body Bags and Betrayal. It.

[Kevin Greenlee]

So the nickname, it turns out, is not Little Blue Ball, it's Pale Blue Dot. So kind of like your eyes.

[Anya Cain]

Okay, thanks.

[Kevin Greenlee]

You have very blue eyes.

[Anya Cain]

Thank you. I wouldn't call them pale blue maybe,

[Kevin Greenlee]

but your eyes, your eyes do contain

[Sponsor/Ad Voice]

richness, just like the earth does.

[Anya Cain]

Thank you. That's very sweet.

[Kevin Greenlee]

And beauty.

[Anya Cain]

Thank you. Bringing it back around. Yeah.

[Kevin Greenlee]

See, I, that's what, that's why I get paid the big box.

[Anya Cain]

That's why they call you the little sweetie.

[Kevin Greenlee]

I can completely humiliate myself, make a fool of myself, but then I can. All I have to do is bring it around to flattering you and I'm in.

[Anya Cain]

Slide by always works.

[Kevin Greenlee]

But now I think you're going to talk about something very, very serious.

[Anya Cain]

Yeah, very serious and involving some not so good gentlemen and in relationships. So this is some. An article that was sent to me by a wonderful listener, longtime listener, appreciate that person. And it involves a very disturbing global phenomenon. So we all know that the Internet is something that has, you know, fostered communities around all sorts of things. If you have an interest, the saying goes, you know, you can find other people with that interest. And it's, it's shaped, it's reshaped things like fandom of movies and television shows and music. It's reshaped things around sexuality, perhaps. And sometimes that can be a positive thing. Finding other people who, you know, maybe share your interests, not necessarily a bad thing. But it can be an extremely bad thing when those interests are the illegal and abusive exploitation of vulnerable people, sexually speaking. And, and that is what the CNN's report kind of uncovered. It's part of their as Equal series, which details things around gender inequality. And I, you know, I was pretty stunned reading it. It's something that you kind of imagine does happen where you have essentially what, what some of the people in this article are calling rape academies, where they're groups of men, seemingly mostly men, getting together and discussing how to drug and then rape women in their lives. And what's especially disturbing about this is obviously every instance of rape, no matter how who it happens to or what the circumstances are, is disturbing. It's, it's, it's a very, it's an inherently disturbing and horrible crime, and it's Something that, you know should be taken seriously as a result of that. But what we have here is people plotting oftentimes to do it to their own wives or girlfriends. So it's like this breach of trust. The person that you trust to protect you or to be a partner to you is actually, in some of these cases, the person who is plotting against you to use your body in ways that you're not consenting to. That's very, very disturbing. I thought this was a very impressive reporting job done by cnn. I'm going to link to the article. I recommend that people read it to get the full story. I'll summarize some of the things that I thought were interesting. So what the CNN investigative report found was that they were looking at this pornography site called motherless.com and they saw this proliferation of quote, unquote, sleep content. And these have things like, hashtag passed out, hashtag eye check. The eye check is when the man then goes to the woman and kind of pulls up her eye to. So she, you know, so she's sleeping, if that makes sense. And this site claims that all of its stuff is legal, but at the very least, some of this stuff is questionable or at least implying a certain level of illegality and catering to sexual interests and proclivities that can quickly spiral into being illegal once the person, you know, starts enacting these fantasies on an unwitting participant. CNN connected this to the trial involving Dominique and Giselle Pellicott in southern France, where a husband was accused of drugging his wife multiple times. And he and, like, 50 other men would come in and rape her during those times. And that trial happened in 2024, I believe he was convicted. And some instances that CNN saw, they found one motherless user who claimed to be in North Africa and claimed to be able to sell sleeping liquids to any address in the world. They found men essentially trying to train each other on best practices on how to do this without getting caught. How to slip drugs into their, you know, into female acquaintances, romantic partners, whatever, food and drink, in order to make them pass out and be able to do what they want. And it's like, it's not just that they have this fantasy around raping women as they sleep. It almost is like they get off on the idea that it's a violation. It's not enough for them to just role play something. You know, people have dark fantasies if they're, you know, but they're not, like, content to just have it remain a fantasy or to have a consensual partner. I think they're getting off on the transgressive nature of it. And they're predators, they're abusers. And there were live stream. They would. Some of them would talk about live streaming this abuse in real time, charging cryptocurrency fees in order to join that. You had men talking with each other, like, how do I avoid. Like, I don't want her to overdose. And then they'll be all like, death investigation. How do I avoid that? You know, giving each other tips. And one woman that CNN talked to talked about how she was married to a man for 16 years, shared children with him. This was in the United Kingdom. And then in 2018, he confessed to her what he had been doing right after they came back from church and that he'd been doing this for years. He would take her a cup of tea before bed and drug that. And then she would be passed out at night and he would rape her. And he ultimately was sentenced to 11 years for rape. And just a horrible, horrible thing. She also talked about how, like, people almost have these assumptions, like, just because I was married to this guy does not mean he's entitled to do that. But people almost feel, well, he's your husband and you didn't feel anything because you were asleep. So it does not a big deal. And it is. It's a huge deal. It's a huge violation. It's a huge. It's rape. I mean, there's no. There's like, it's. It's rape or it isn't. And this is. And then they, you know, they talk to some experts about how basically this kind of voyeurism, this kind of abusive behavior is just kind of being increasingly glorified in some of these insular communities. And these predators are bonding with each other and teaching each other and trying to support each other and encourage one another's interests. So it's like kind of a self. It's a positive feedback loop. But, yeah, they're calling it like kind of rape academies. It's really horrible. I wanted to add one important thing, just in case, you know, I mean, hope. God, I hope nobody, you know, listens to this ever has to go through something like this. But in case you do, because it can happen to anybody. And in case, you know, somebody who goes through something like this, it's important to be aware of the symptoms of being dosed with knockout drugs like gb, ghb, Rufinol. They're very similar to being extremely intoxicated. Okay? So if you start suddenly start Feeling or acting or someone you know starts feeling or acting extremely intoxicated, and it doesn't make sense why they would be. That can be a sign. You could lose motor coordination, your speech starts to slur, you're very tired, you're weak. Visual impairment, and those typically tend to take place between 15 and 30 minutes after you consume those drugs. Now, it's very important to act quickly, and here's why. Rufinol, when it comes to roofing, if you do a urine test for that, and it can work up to five days after you have it. GHB, it's more like in the system for about 12 hours. And Zolpidem is even shorter, seven to eight hours. And so you. You want to. Basically, if you think that you've been drugged or spiked or whatever, or you think someone you know is, you need to tell someone you trust. Get to a hospital or call emergency services. The quicker that you can be tested for date rape drugs, the more likely they are to find it. And that can spur an investigation that can then bring the perpetrator to justice, which is necessary because it's not going to stop. People like this are just going to keep doing it as long as they can get away with it. So, yeah, that's something to be aware of. Very disturbing. Because it's like a lot of these women, it's like they love their husbands, they love their boyfriends. They're, you know, they trust them. And then to be violated in this way, I think that's a very scary thing. But unfortunately, oftentimes we have to be worried about the people in our life versus a stranger. You know, I mean, that's.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Yeah, that's terrifying. But true.

[Anya Cain]

You know, it's. It's. We. We focus on the stranger sometimes in true crime, but I think that that does a disservice to the reality. Certainly there are strangers that are dangerous. Right. And you, you know, like, I'm not saying, oh, yeah, like, just, you know, go hang out with Ted Bundy. No, I'm. But I am saying that, like, there can be stuff going on even closer, and it's important to scrutinize that.

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Well said.

[Anya Cain]

I love having my own podcast. I can make editorial decisions and focus on true crime cases and stories that I care about. I'm so glad I did it, but I'm not gonna lie, it was a scary choice.

[Kevin Greenlee]

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[Anya Cain]

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[Anya Cain]

Alexa, add to cart. So I think we're moving on to one of your cases now.

[Kevin Greenlee]

I think we are. Shall we go to Connecticut?

[Anya Cain]

Absolutely.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Have you been to Connecticut?

[Anya Cain]

I've been to Connecticut, yeah. I grew up in Westchester county in New York, and we were not, you know, not too far from Connecticut. I've been to Stanford. Some of our family friends lived out in Connecticut, so we would go visit them. So, yeah, I've been there a couple of times. It's a nice state.

[Kevin Greenlee]

I think I have. I've been to Connecticut.

[Sponsor/Ad Voice]

I think I have.

[Kevin Greenlee]

When with you.

[Anya Cain]

Why would. Why did we go to Connecticut?

[Kevin Greenlee]

I don't know.

[Anya Cain]

I don't think when we lived in

[Kevin Greenlee]

Brooklyn, we'd often, like, drive places. Right.

[Anya Cain]

I don't think we didn't go to Connecticut.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Okay.

[Anya Cain]

I mean, unless I'm forgetting something, but I don't. I don't think we did.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Okay.

[Anya Cain]

Maybe we've been to New Jersey.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Well. And I guess that's very similar to Connecticut.

[Anya Cain]

No, it's. I mean, no, I'm not in it. It's just a neighboring state.

[Sponsor/Ad Voice]

Okay.

[Anya Cain]

My understanding. When. I don't know if this is actually a fun factor from just spreading historical information, but my understanding was that New York and Connecticut, a lot of my family's out in Long Island. They're from Long Island. They lived in Long island, whatnot. I spend a lot of time in Long Island. My understanding is Connecticut and New York kind of like were both beefing a little bit early in our country's history because they both wanted Long Island. They're both kind of like, this is mine, and New York won.

[Kevin Greenlee]

And. Have you been to Long Island?

[Anya Cain]

Yes.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Have I been to Long Island?

[Anya Cain]

Yes.

[Kevin Greenlee]

And I liked it. Right.

[Anya Cain]

I. What's not to like? I love Long Island. Okay. It's very pretty.

[Kevin Greenlee]

So I don't know why you let us astray routine. Yeah. And I let us astray and I regret it because that was minutes we can't get back. They're gone forever. Could done anything else for that time. So my source for this is the hour.com. i guess maybe one reason I was delaying this is a story I find very, very upsetting and it makes me angry. It's not fun to think or talk about such things. And it makes me angry even though it's. I think the judge in this case had no choice. So There was a 1986 murder case in Connecticut involving a child named Kathleen Marie. For Flynn, that case went cold for many, many years. But there was an arrest made in the case. A trial in the case was ongoing. It was within days of finishing this trial when suddenly the prosecutor got an email. And the email that the prosecutor received came from a retired Norwalk police lieutenant named Robert Fabrizio. He said he'd been following media reports of the trial and he had some information to share, namely that not long after the death of this child, the well known Criminologist, Henry Lee, Dr. Henry Lee contacted him, let him know that the body of the child had been placed in a used body bag. And Dr. Lee was upset about that. He was concerned that there might be contamination of evidence and he wanted to know why this lieutenant allowed it. And the lieutenant said, I wasn't even on the scene when she was removed. So we have the situation here where we have a trial that possibly involves some DNA evidence and if a used body bag was employed at the scene, that at the very least creates a theoretical possibility of contamination. And that is certainly an issue that the defense should have time to study and figure out. Now the prosecution, they, they said, hey, you know, this information that we got, we shared it, but the information was, quote, unreliable. And there's actually no hard evidence that this child's body was placed in a used body bag. It's just this report from Dr. Lee, who of course now is deceased and he can't come forward to offer any more information or context. But the defense said, hey, this is information we should have the right to look at and study. And so the judge agreed with that and said, basically, I don't want to do this, but I'm granting a mistrial and my heart goes out to the family of this child who have waited so long to get justice. They've seen an arrest, they've seen the beginning of a trial. They thought they were very close to getting a final determination. And then this happened. To be clear, the state can file. This doesn't end things. There can still be Another trial. But this issue about contamination has to be addressed. What are your thoughts?

[Anya Cain]

So, making sure I'm understanding it correctly, this police officer emails the prosecutor during trial.

[Sponsor/Ad Voice]

Yes.

[Anya Cain]

Saying, I remember back in the day, years and years ago, when this was happening, when she was first found. Dr. Henry Lee said this to me.

[Sponsor/Ad Voice]

Yes.

[Anya Cain]

Where was, where was this guy when this, you know, when the, before the trial was going on?

[Kevin Greenlee]

That. That's an excellent question. All it says in the press reports I've seen is that he, he has been following it, he's followed coverage of it and wanted to share this information. And of course, once a prosecutor gets information like that, he is legally, morally, ethically bound to share it with the defense, which he did promptly.

[Anya Cain]

I would want to know, are there people who were on the original investigation or better yet, at the scene who can corroborate things, are not corroborated or, or were there notes, were there contemporaneous reports? What were, what were the proper procedures that were normally done in these situations? I also would have the question of, so there is DNA evidence in this case implicating Mark Karen. It's my understanding how would his DNA get on like a different body bag from a different crime scene?

[Kevin Greenlee]

Again, that's a, a good question.

[Sponsor/Ad Voice]

But I, what do you think?

[Kevin Greenlee]

I feel that this is a claim that needs to be addressed. I don't think the state can just say, oh, it's unreliable. We don't believe it. Let's keep going.

[Anya Cain]

I think the defense absolutely has a right to ask for it to be addressed properly. So I don't fault them. They mean they're doing their jobs. I find, I find the timing a little bit odd, like this guy just happened to remember this, or I don't know, like, I don't know whether that's like just a weird thing. Kind of makes me feel a little bit odd that this guy's kind of inserting himself into this like at this time versus, like. But it may also not be on the guy who reached out. It may be on the modern day investigators for, you know, I think it's a good idea to sometimes perhaps talk to people who were there at the time or something just so you can be able to give the defense, you know, like, okay, this. So, like, you don't waste the court's time and waste everybody's time by going to trial and having this blow up. So I don't, I don't know who that's on.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Yeah, I don't either. One thing we've certainly seen is that not everything that happens ends up in a report. And that's not because people are trying to hide things. It's just that you simply can't write down everything that happens. But it is important to talk to the people who were there.

[Anya Cain]

I'm not accusing the guy who reached out. He might have been doing this in totally good faith. I'm just burned by the Todd Clicks of the world. There are certain law enforcement officers who become emotionally invested in one outcome. That their particular preferred suspect is the culprit. That they almost become, like, weird case followers who try to sway things to have that outcome. And again, that's what we saw in Delphi. That was Todd Click. That was the people working that angle to a certain extent. And I'm sure they felt they were doing the right thing. But it. It was. It was poor policing, poor investigative work. Maybe in this case, like, I would hope that that's not what is happening. I would hope that, you know, he was not contacted, and then he's like, hey, this is. We got to know this. But yeah, I mean, is there any. Like, I don't know how you resolve this, though, because, I mean, here's the thing. Even though I'm, like, pretty skeptical about this, it's like, yeah, but how did you know also, I mean, I would want to know, like, how. What was the DNA? Because if they found. I mean, would you. Do, you know, like, was it semen, Blood, touch?

[Kevin Greenlee]

Well, I can tell you one thing that was recently testified to was fingernail scrapings from the child. Kathleen's autopsy and tests done on those fingernail scrapings showed that they were 22,000 times more likely to have come from Kathleen and Karen rather than Kathleen and someone else.

[Anya Cain]

So here's my feeling about this. I think that matters if this is, like, touch DNA on her and it's a used body bag. First of all, no one should be reusing body bags anyway. But it was the 80s. I mean, I'm not. That doesn't excuse it. It's ridiculous. But it makes more sense than them doing it today. But, you know, because they weren't really as versed in some of this forensic stuff as they should have been at the time. But when we look at that, it's like, if it's touch DNA, then I start becoming extremely concerned because it's like, okay, maybe that is contamination. I don't know how being in a body bag gets stuff under your fingernails, though. When there's a struggle between a victim and a perpetrator, I'm hoping that The. I mean, I think the judge made the right call. I think the defense made the right call. I think the prosecutor made the right call by bringing this up. I'm hoping that they can go forward and have testimony where the defense is able to say, hey, this is a big problem, and the prosecutor is able to answer it, and that a jury is. Is. Is left to make a determination of what's likely.

[Sponsor/Ad Voice]

Yeah.

[Kevin Greenlee]

At the end of the day, I'd love to see if there is any corroborating evidence whether or not this happened, whether or not there was the body bag reused. And I'd also like to hear testimony as to assume that there was a reused body bag. How could this have affected some of these test results?

[Anya Cain]

I think that's important.

[Kevin Greenlee]

There's other instances in this case of less than ideal practice. For instance, a state lab employee's DNA was actually found in a sample that was taken from the pants of the victim.

[Anya Cain]

That happens.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Yeah.

[Anya Cain]

But, I mean, that happened in Delphi.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Yeah.

[Anya Cain]

They thought they had the killer, and they were like, oh, wait, it's a lab tech.

[Kevin Greenlee]

I remember that.

[Anya Cain]

Yeah. So, I mean, I. I think. Or I don't want to. I don't. Don't quote me on that. I forget who it was, but it was someone who was not the killer. It was just somebody working, you know, and so it's a situation where, like, yeah, that. That stinks. There's a certain level of things that there's always going to be mistakes. It's about, how big of a mistake is it going to be? Does it. Does it completely throw out all the evidence? I would argue in that. In this. In an instance where you're reusing stuff like this in 1986, in some instance that would make me throw out that evidence, because it's like, I don't know, maybe. Maybe it is just a weird fluke where his DNA got on that body bag in some other instance and it was reused here. Seems a little bit neat, but you have to give people. You have to prove things beyond a reasonable doubt. So it's like, if it's. If it's sloppy enough, you can get there. But there's other instances where it's like, if that is testified to and both sides have a chance to explain it, then. And again, I have a hard time. Maybe I'm wrong. I'm not a forensic expert whatsoever, but, like, getting it under your fingernails, could you. Would a body bag do that?

[Kevin Greenlee]

I don't know.

[Anya Cain]

I guess maybe. Also, it depends on, like, how many

[Kevin Greenlee]

fingernails that's also a great point. Shall we move on to your next case?

[Anya Cain]

Yes. So for my next case, we are going to go to North Carolina. And this is yet another request from a listener. My sources for this are a press release from the Marion Police Department of North Carolina as well as. Yeah, actually, that was it.

[Kevin Greenlee]

North Carolina is a very friendly state. I've been there. Very friendly state.

[Anya Cain]

You said it was a little too friendly.

[Kevin Greenlee]

How can anything be too friendly?

[Anya Cain]

Kevin is, was. Was a little nervous because everyone was being so friendly to him.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Everyone was very, very nice.

[Anya Cain]

Do you thought they were trying to trick you?

[Kevin Greenlee]

I, I remember there was. I. I apologize if I've told this on the show before. And I don't know if it says something about me. Maybe I looked like I needed. But at the time I visited North Carolina, there was some sort of promotion going on at McDonald's. You like, buy one sandwich, get a second sandwich free. And on, I think two separate occasions during my trip, as I walked into a McDonald's somebody came out of McDonald's and offered me their extra sandwich. Aw.

[Anya Cain]

Very friendly that you needed a lot of help. My other source though, is, I believe, the McDowell News. So this is out of McDowell County, North Carolina. So this concerns a man named Timothy Blake. Michael Thorne. I just, I thought this was a little bit interesting because you kind of just. It's one of those kind of like just everyday crimes, but you can kind of see the, the build up, the sedimentary buildup of a person's choices leading kind of ultimately to a tragedy. So this Thorne pops up in the McDowell News at age 17, September 5, 2012, he's facing misdemeanor probation violation and 30 days in jail. And this is over something around communicating threats and injury to real property and a misdemeanor probation violation. The offense was. This was filed June 15, 2012. Then in 2018, he comes up again for an offense of. On April 7, 2018, injury to personal property, misdemeanor larceny. Most of his appearances are in the McDowell District Court and the Surrey District Court. And he becomes, you know, quite a frequent flyer, as they say in both. He is busted on May 11, 2018, was a big day for him. There's stuff around. Possession of stolen goods and property, breaking or entering a motor vehicle, misdemeanor larceny, felony probation violation, conspiracy to commit felony larceny, not having an operator's license, possessing an open container of alcohol. And then, yeah, so like that's a whole mess. Then on August 24, 2019, he resists a public officer on March 23, 2020, it's. He, he's accused of basically discharging a weapon into an occupied dwelling or moving vehicle and possessing a firearm as a felon. This was actually detailed a little bit in the McDowell news in 2020. It was a shooting in Nebo, North Carolina. He pled guilty at age 26 on March 31, 2022, to, to the felony discharging a weapon. Got 23 to 40 months in prison and given credit for 553 days served. So what happened was the other co defendant in that was a guy named Harrison hensley, who was 64, who also pled guilty to that. On March 23, 2020, deputies with the McDowell County Sheriff's Office went to a residence in Nebo. The victim and an occupant asked Hensley to move out after an argument with him. So Hensley was there moving his things out and then the victim pulled up in a car and Thorne started firing a gun at that person as they pulled up and then the person fled. So, you know, it's like, you see these people and it's. I feel like career criminals, like is too strong of a word because it implies like they have a career or like an aim. Like, you know, like, like someone who's a frequent burglar. It's like, you know, like on some level they know what they're doing. But I think you have this like kind of group of people who are more of just like, I don't know, they've got some pretty serious issues all around and they're constantly the ones straining resources within the criminal justice system. They're constantly the people you see in court who are requiring public defenders and then are requiring the community to house and feed them as they're in jail. It's just, you know, they're kind of just, I don't know, like a mess. You know, they, I. And it would be great to be able to help people like this get off of that track. And I don't, I don't know how you do that, but it's just you see them again and again and again and then sometimes, you know, all these things were serious, but there's nothing that's like, oh my God, someone died. Although frankly, shooting at a moving car, that could have happened.

[Kevin Greenlee]

That could have very easily happened very easily.

[Anya Cain]

But no one died yet. But unfortunately someone has died. So this guy comes back in the news and this is what the press release is about. So on September 12, 2024 at 12:03am, the Marion Police Department responded to an infant in cardiac arrest on Carol Street. And they find the father who is 31 year old, white male, Timothy Michael Blake Thorne. And he brings them upstairs. They find a female infant in distress. She's only three months old. It's heartbreaking. She's in the bedroom, she's unresponsive and the mother is there too. And they McDowell County EMS comes in, they start life saving measures along with the officers. And as they're doing that, they also transport the child to McDowell Hospital. They keep trying to save the baby's life. They also transport her to Mission Hospital in Asheville because they feel like that's going to be better resources. But despite, quote, however, despite everyone's best efforts, the child died later that same day while still at the hospital, end quote. So obviously in a situation like this where a baby dies, sometimes there can be situations where it's not anybody's fault. Infant deaths happen and that's very upsetting and unfortunate and my heart goes out to anyone who's experienced that kind of loss. Many times it's not anybody's fault. Other times there is foul play involved in this case. Investigators start looking into him, looking into the situation. They talk with Thorne and, and the mother. They get the details. They investigate for a year and six months. And part of that was doing a lot of interviews, part of that was looking for medical records. But on Wednesday, March 25, 2026, Timothy Michael Blake Thorne was charged with one count of murder and one count of felony child abuse. He is now being held at the McDowell County Jail on a different charge apparently. And he was hit with the charges and has no bond and quote, the case remains active. Investigators are still reviewing to see if any other charges are going to be filed, end quote. Obviously very sad and upsetting situation where you have a little baby die.

[Kevin Greenlee]

It's very upsetting.

[Anya Cain]

I don't want to assume the worst against Mr. Thorne. You know, he made a lot of bad choices seemingly in his life. That doesn't necessarily make someone a murderer. So I think it's important to keep an open mind either way. But certainly if this bears out the way the prosecutor obviously thinks it's going to, if he's filed murder charges. It's a situation where you just have someone kind of careening through life and has no business being around a child and ends up taking their own child's life. It seems like something that's so antithetical to nature, having a parent murder their own offspring. It's like the opposite of what, like I feel like anyone's like, you know, like any animal should want to do.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Yeah, there's a basic instinct there to protect your child.

[Anya Cain]

I know in some species you do have roving males who might kill, you know, a female animal, a female mammals offspring sometimes to like, you know, clear them out of the way that so that they can mate with the female and have their own kids. So I understand like it's not like nature is a pretty lovely, you know, oh, everything's all sweet and nice and the parents all love their babies. But you know, certainly with human beings too, like there should be a protective instinct. But unfortunately in many cases there is not.

[Kevin Greenlee]

And yeah, it's sad, it's really, really upsetting.

[Anya Cain]

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[Anya Cain]

So I think you're next in going

[Kevin Greenlee]

to Georgia, which of course, as you were reminding me, you like to call Georgia the Empire State of the South.

[Anya Cain]

I'm just gonna let that one slide.

[Kevin Greenlee]

I'm trying so hard to get your goat away.

[Anya Cain]

I know you're trying. Why don't you just leave my goat alone?

[Kevin Greenlee]

Your goat is community property. No, before I get into this and talk about my sources and stuff first, Anya, you understand this is kind of a related question, but have you ever been in a situation where you're like making a presentation or talking to someone or just having some sort of interaction with someone and then they ask you a question and then you realize, oh, I'm really in over my head?

[Anya Cain]

No, because that was a very good student. There was. There have been times. That's not entirely true. There have been times. I remember we were in a group project in a college course and we had to do a presentation about something I felt I knew really well, which is ancient Roman history. And we kind of BS through it. And you could tell there was a point where it was like, this isn't, this isn't going that great. No, it wasn't about Rome. Yeah, no, it was about Rome. There was also a similar one about epidemiology. But anyway, so I get. I'm not great in a group presentation. So I've been there. I've also seen it happen to people. That's always kind of a fun, fun moment, especially if you don't really like the people involved. I remember there was a guy who. These, these. It was a group project in one of my high school classes. And he kept on mispronouncing holiness as holiness. And I was just dying of laughing the whole time, like suppressing laughter. But, and, and, and the presentation was a train wreck beyond that. But you've definitely. We've all been there. We've all seen it.

[Kevin Greenlee]

And it's, it can be painful to see.

[Anya Cain]

Oh, it's awful to see. It's kind of funny sometimes.

[Kevin Greenlee]

There's a video out there where an author by the name of Naomi Wolf. Do you know what I'm talking about?

[Anya Cain]

I know exactly what you're talking about. This is one of the greatest crash outs of, of all time, I think.

[Kevin Greenlee]

She had released a book, she was doing an interview. And during the course of this interview, it's basically comes to her attention that the entire thesis of her book is wrong.

[Anya Cain]

Yep. Like, wasn't she in misinterpreting how a word was used and which wasn't she saying like, oh, these people were executed, but that like, meant something else in the context.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Yes. And it's painful to see that happen. To see like the person like, oh, no, I've made a huge mistake. They're thinking to themselves.

[Anya Cain]

Then she's like, totally lose it online. I remember there was this like, some like, brand posted a photo of a teddy bear in like a mask during like the height of COVID And she like posted back like, she quote, tweeted like, no, no, she's like nuts. Like, I don't know. Yeah, she, she's not a good researcher. And then like, I feel like she doubled down on that whole thing.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Yeah, but it's painful.

[Anya Cain]

It is sad. Yeah.

[Kevin Greenlee]

That sort of thing. Even if it hasn't happened to you, when you see that happen to someone else, you think, oh, that could be me.

[Anya Cain]

I don't think that could be you. You're too good. You're too good at it. You know, and also you, you don't put so much weight on a thesis unless you are absolutely certain.

[Kevin Greenlee]

So, and I. It become clear in a moment why I asked this. My source for this is Atlanta News first and also Fox 5 Atlanta. There is a video of a woman named Deborah Leslie who is affiliated with the Clayton County District Attorney's office, and she's arguing a murder case before the Georgia Supreme Court. And suddenly one of the justices calls to her attention. You know, some of the cases you mentioned in some of your legal filings, they don't exist.

[Anya Cain]

Oh, no.

[Kevin Greenlee]

And furthermore, some of the cases you cite in your filings that do exist, your quotes from them are made up or they don't support the position you say they do.

[Anya Cain]

Oh, my gosh.

[Kevin Greenlee]

And you see them ask her this question, and you see her guys are, like, flipping through papers and stuff and, oh, it's painful. And what happened? What happened is this woman used AI.

[Anya Cain]

Oh, no. Why?

[Kevin Greenlee]

I think a lot of people see AI is like an easy way out. Almost like I don't have to do the work. I just have to plug something into a computer and it will cough out something that will look good.

[Anya Cain]

Oh, my God. For murder case.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Yeah. And we've seen. I, I know there's college students who rely heavily on AI. I think we've seen other cases where lawyers use it when they shouldn't. And, you know, maybe AI has the potential to be a really good tool, but it can't replace actual research and confirming things.

[Anya Cain]

I'm going to tell you something. I'll go beyond that. I think if you are in a position where you are using AI in a way that's supposed to replace your own critical thinking, the own, your own research work, your own work in general, you are causing your brain and your thinking abilities to atrophy, and you're becoming stupider. And again, I'm not saying I can. I'm not saying I can't envision any scenarios where someone is able to effectively use AI to say, like, you know, pull a bunch of sources. Right. Or, like, be, like, kind of implemented in a research way where it doesn't do that. But I think you have to be careful because stuff like that can be addictive. And honestly, when people come to me, I'm very blunt about this. When people. And, you know, I mean, I don't mean to cause offense, and I don't. I'm not trying to be a jerk. I feel like I'm trying to act in people's interests. When they come to me and say, well, AI told me this about the case, I just am like, I don't care. Like that doesn't mean anything. What are you talking about? And I think I kind of push back on people. And I've probably been a bit blunt with people like you. This will tell you what you want to hear. And they're usually a bit surprised. But it's like, if you're using this, you should know what it is and what whatever you're doing with it is not so. And those are people who are like just lay people who are just like, trying their best or like trying to research or trying to get something I don't have. They obviously have very good intentions. Those aren't lawyers who are citing case

[Kevin Greenlee]

law for cases that don't exist or do exist but don't stand for what she says.

[Anya Cain]

That's actually really concerning. I have a question, Kevin. Are we sure that it's actually this individual woman who's been singled out, or is it possible this is an office wide problem or what's going on?

[Kevin Greenlee]

She's an attorney who works in the office. The district attorney herself wrote a letter to the chief justice of the Georgia Supreme Court. This is DA Tasha Mosley. And she said that by doing that and using AI in this way, this woman violated her office's ethical standards. You're not supposed to rely on AI to that extent. Again, it has the potential to be a tool, but it can't replace actual human beings actually thinking things through and writing things themselves.

[Anya Cain]

And at the very least, I mean, like, it's not even effectively being lazy because like, you would think even if you're being super lazy and having it do stuff for you, you think you double check the work. I don't think you should use it in that capacity. I'm just saying, like, even, like you could probably get away with it if you were like checking the work. I'm glad that D.A. mosley wrote a letter clarifying this situation and indicating what happened, but I mean, I'm sorry.

[Kevin Greenlee]

So now the woman who did it, she faces discipline, which could include like a grievance with the state bar and suspension lots of privileges. Because it's a pretty serious thing.

[Anya Cain]

I think it's deeply serious and it's deeply unfortunate because, I mean, listen, we've, we've talked about on, in our show, we've talked about on different cheat sheets, prosecutors who were not doing a good job. We've talked about defense attorneys who are not doing a good job. We've talked about legal breaches. But ultimately, I do feel like there's a certain aspect to the prosecutorial role where you should be above anything that's, like, dubious like that. I hold a prosecutor to a higher standard, frankly. And when it's like this and it's like you're not even putting in the work you need to do for, again, on a murder case, it's so serious, I, that's a real problem. And I would, I mean, I, I, I hate to say it, and this would probably affect attorneys who are doing this pretty negatively. But, like, I feel like there have to be severe consequences when this is found out because that can serve as a deterrent for everybody else. Because it, it's one thing to do this and then it's another thing. This actually impacts people's lives. You know, if we start having judges, you know, precedent established with a bunch of citations that are phony, the ramifications seem like they could be pretty serious.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Yeah. If you're doing research and you want to use AI as a tool, I encourage you to double check in the information it gives you.

[Anya Cain]

I, Generative AI. Generative artificial intelligence is something that is designed, in my view, to also tell people what they want to hear. So when you're researching, like, factual events, you know, I, I can, I can understand like, plugging in a question to AI and then looking at the resources and the sources it cites and clicking on those and learning more. But I feel like that is much safer than just taking whatever it's telling you at face value because, again, it's designed to tell you what you want to hear, and it's consistently pushed people who are having psychiatric issues into further delusions. There's a reason for that because that's how it's built. So as researchers, as responsible and prudent researchers within true crime, it's very important to not put much weight on it at all. I would, I would argue that in many cases it's actually not worth your time. But if you're just using it to kind of cast a wide net for sources or think, you know, see if you can find more sources, I don't necessarily have a problem with that as long as you are being thoughtful and checking your work, as you said. But I mean, that's just with lay people. I mean, with lawyers, I feel like it should be, this shouldn't even be like, a thing because you expect so

[Kevin Greenlee]

much of an attorney because they're like, they're like our country's royalty.

[Anya Cain]

There are countries royalty. Well, I, that explains the crown you've been wearing for the past couple days, walking around with your robe and your scepter. Anya can you Walked right into that one. What's gonna happen with this? I don't know, Whatever appeal or something as a result of this.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Well, as I said, she's gonna face some discipline. We'll follow it to see what happens. And I imagine the fake cases won't play a role in the murder case, which raises some interesting questions. It's a case where I'm gonna do this very, very simply. A person witnessed a car accident. They weren't involved in the car accident. They then see, oh, somebody who is involved in the car accident is fleeing. They chase them down, There's a confrontation, they kill the person.

[Anya Cain]

Oh, geez. That.

[Kevin Greenlee]

So it's an interesting case. And it's like all cases. It deserves to be ultimately ruled upon and settled based on actual law, not

[Anya Cain]

imaginary law, not made up law that a computer made up to make the user happy. I mean, that's what's so. Like, that's so bad. But, yeah, that's. That's unfortunate. But I'm glad they caught it. You know, the appellate team was just watching that being, like, what. What is happening right now? Like, I don't know. Well, that's unfortunate. And, yeah, I mean, I. But I do. I feel like there have to be severe consequences to stuff like this. You know, I just. I don't know how else you convince, you know, the more negligent members of the bar to, you know, not do stuff this egregious.

[Kevin Greenlee]

So by severe consequences, like death, obviously.

[Anya Cain]

No, I mean, like, you know, like, suspension.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Yeah.

[Anya Cain]

Or if it's really severe, maybe disbarment. Like, this is not nothing. This is. I mean, and again, like, why are you becoming a lawyer? Don't. Don't you guys. Aren't you guys supposed to, like, reading about case law? Haven't. Like, that fun for you at this point?

[Kevin Greenlee]

I don't think it would be very effective if I said, oh, Anya. I asked AI and it found a Supreme Court case that says you're obligated to wear a hat.

[Anya Cain]

No.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Yeah.

[Anya Cain]

Yeah, because that's tells you what you

[Kevin Greenlee]

want to hear, not.

[Anya Cain]

Not. Yeah, it tells you what you want to hear. Like, I'm sorry. Like, I've had too many people come up to me or email us. Not come up to me in the street, but come up to me digitally and say, like, hey, like, I found this about this case. Where'd you get that? Oh, AI. Well, like, don't waste my time. Like, I can. Like, I don't. I have a very negative view about it. I. I don't mind also like, people using like, AI to like, do quick little emails. Like, I don't get, I don't care. Like, if you're scheduling stuff, I literally don't care. I don't, I don't do that. I just don't judge people who do. But also if somebody sends me ever some kind of AI thing that's supposed to be like a personal communication, I'm just going to assume that you, you know, do not value that relationship that much. If you're having to need AI, if you're having to rely on AI to talk to people.

[Kevin Greenlee]

So you're calling me out for your birthday.

[Anya Cain]

You would never, you would never do that. You are not like that. I just, you know, I think people are outsourcing too much of their emotion, their emotions and their like, mental abilities to technology. You shouldn't do that even if the technology is really good and accurate, because you should be trying to sharpen your brain and sharpen your abilities and become more.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Especially if you're a lawyer. Because if you're a lawyer, you're more intelligent than any computer.

[Anya Cain]

Goodness. See there, there's, you know, but like, you can, you know, but like, I don't mind people doing little drudge tasks. I just, I don't want to see humanity surrender its abilities to a computer. And in this case, in the world we live in, it's not even a particularly accurate form of technology when we're talking about stuff like this. I'm sure there's some areas where some of this generative AI is doing impressive jobs. Coding. I don't know. I don't know about that stuff, then that's fine. But in this realm, if it's making up cases, and I've seen it make up facts in other cases that people have like again asked, you know, oh, is this true about this case? And like, no. Where'd you get that? Oh, okay. Chad. GPT told you. Well, chat. GPT lied. You know, people see it as this kind of neutral arbiter of facts, and it would never do that. But it, but it does all the time. I see it. And that makes it kind of not super useful in that respect. But also, like, just don't do this

[Kevin Greenlee]

if you're a lawyer in a murder case at all.

[Anya Cain]

But yeah, definitely not then a murder

[Kevin Greenlee]

case is pretty important.

[Anya Cain]

Pretty high profile, pretty important, you know, and I understand that a lot of people in the public defenders offices and the prosecutor's offices, they're, they're taking on a lot of cases. It's difficult Work. They're having to do a lot. I get that. But, like, anything's better than this. Doing a bad job by yourself is better than this.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Well, Anya, we mentioned in passing about your birthday. I want to know how was your birthday? What did you do?

[Anya Cain]

When did we mention my birthday?

[Kevin Greenlee]

I mentioned that I sent you an AI birthday card.

[Anya Cain]

Oh, right, right. Which you didn't. It was very nice. I appreciate all the birthday wishes. And I got to hang out with my favorite person, which is one Kevin Greenlee. So it was a good birthday for me. We went out to dinner. It was very.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Your favorite restaurant.

[Anya Cain]

It wasn't. Kevin, I don't know why you're so fixated on, like, nailing me down on what my favorite restaurant is. I have, like, many different. Like, I don't have one favorite restaurant, so.

[Kevin Greenlee]

This was certainly one of your favorite.

[Anya Cain]

I enjoy the restaurant

[Kevin Greenlee]

for some reason. This is a real sticky place.

[Anya Cain]

I just, I'm, like, I don't like to be nailed down on, like, oh, like, it's like asking what your favorite song is. I have a lot of favorites songs. I don't know. I don't have one.

[Sponsor/Ad Voice]

You're not under oath.

[Kevin Greenlee]

People aren't writing this down. And I hold it to you, like, 10 years from now. Well, you know, Anya, five years ago, you said this was your favorite restaurant.

[Anya Cain]

Haven't you been in a situation where you tell somebody, like, oh, I like X, and then, like, they just associate that with you? It's like, I don't want to be pinned down. I want to be a little mysterious. Okay. Get with the vibe. Sick of your nonsense.

[Kevin Greenlee]

So you think that makes it mysterious that you might like more than one?

[Anya Cain]

I just don't think it's my favorite restaurant. I, I, I just, I think it's. I like it, but, like, I, I feel like I could do better if I really thought about it. But I'm also not sitting around thinking about this because I have a, you know, job. You are just. You were, you were impish today.

[Kevin Greenlee]

What?

[Anya Cain]

There's some impishness.

[Kevin Greenlee]

No, no, no.

[Anya Cain]

Yeah. Oh, no, no. Yes, yes.

[Kevin Greenlee]

And of course, that restaurant McDonald's gotta

[Anya Cain]

get my big arch. Get my big arch on. No, I did not go and get a big arch for my birthday. Yes, I have had the big arch, but not for my birthday.

[Kevin Greenlee]

So is that it?

[Anya Cain]

Yeah. I, I. What else is going on? Well, I mean, do we have any anecdote? Oh, I haven't. We've been doing too much true crime. Okay, you think, Anya, but this is a True crime podcast. Yes. But here's my proof. So we are. We go to bed a couple nights ago.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Too much information. I like people.

[Anya Cain]

You are saying, oh, I'm in the bath. Yeah.

[Kevin Greenlee]

I like. I like people to think I never sleep.

[Anya Cain]

You hang from.

[Kevin Greenlee]

I'm like the Pinkertons. I'm the eye that never sleeps.

[Anya Cain]

You're like the Pinkerton. So you're, like, going and.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Yes.

[Anya Cain]

Busting up strikes and union laborers. Okay, that's good. Hope you're proud of yourself. But anyway, so I. So. So we're. We're going to bed, and then I'm falling asleep, and then suddenly Kevin just starts screaming.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Yeah, this has never happened. I've never had a dream that I thought was real until a couple years being married to you.

[Anya Cain]

I felt so bad for you because he just abruptly starts screaming and then stop very quickly. And I'm like, what's wrong? And you're like, oh, don't worry about. Was just a dream. I'm going back to sleep. And then the next morning, I was like, what happened? There's nothing more terrifying than drifting off sleep. And then you hear your husband started screaming. I'm like, we're going to die. Like, somebody's in the room. And you were having a dream where you were. Someone was trying to murder you.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Yeah, someone was trying to push my face down into the pillow and, like, suffocate me. Like, I was the Jack Nicholson character and One Flew with a Cuckoo's Nest,

[Anya Cain]

and it was not me, the person doing that.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Yes.

[Anya Cain]

And in the dream, I was actually. I warned Kevin someone was going to try to kill him. So that's the name. So dark. But, yeah, if you guys ever are feeling like you're having nightmares about murder, I would say, you know, you can always lay off the true crime for, you know, a week or two, kind of cleanse and then get back into it. It is heavy stuff, and sometimes it can, you know, seep into your, I think, subconscious a bit.

[Kevin Greenlee]

So should I lay off for a week? And you have, like, a week of solo episodes.

[Anya Cain]

Solo episodes. The Anya Cane show. What if I, like, just totally, totally change it? The Anya Sheet people would be, like, clamoring, trying to get back channels to Kevin and be like, please come back. It's got. It's gotten so bad. Like, just some. I would somehow create, like, a murder sheet dystopia, you know, and people would be like, kevin, you must come. You must return. Kevin's like, cincinnatus at his farm. No, no, I'm gonna Just farm the land. No. Yeah. Not. Nah. Well, sorry I let everyone down.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Kane's crime calendar. That has the alliteration.

[Anya Cain]

Yeah, you love alliteration. But, yeah, no. So just as a note, it's okay to kind of have a little bit too much of true crime sometimes, like, and then you can kind of just cleanse. It is heavy stuff, and it does seep in. But I will note that one thing about studying true crime as much as we have is that, you know, it makes me appreciate on some level that many of these violent crimes and very scary crimes that we do research are incredibly rare. I think it's a good thing to be situationally aware and to know what's going on in the lives of people you love, but you don't necessarily need to be constantly scared because a lot of that stuff is unlikely. Again, situational awareness, good. Constant paranoia and fear probably not justified in many cases unless someone is, like, targeting you, obviously.

[Kevin Greenlee]

And also, it's important to remember, if you're taking a break from true crime for your mental health, you can still download the shows.

[Anya Cain]

That's why Kevin was actually waking up screaming.

[Kevin Greenlee]

No one has to stop downloading.

[Anya Cain]

Yeah, why would you do that?

[Kevin Greenlee]

Yeah, if you don't want to listen, that's fine.

[Anya Cain]

But keep downloading or Kevin will keep waking up screaming. Yeah, well, that was our silly anecdote for the evening. And

[Kevin Greenlee]

suddenly so formal.

[Anya Cain]

It's not even evening.

[Kevin Greenlee]

So.

[Anya Cain]

All right. Are we gonna. Are we gonna head out?

[Kevin Greenlee]

Where are we going?

[Anya Cain]

I mean, from the show. We're not going anywhere.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Lying to the listeners.

[Anya Cain]

Oh, my gosh. Why are you being so impish? What, are you just smiling over there? Can we wrap it up or do you have something to say?

[Kevin Greenlee]

Just end it. Thanks so much for listening to the Murder Sheet. If you have a tip concerning one of the cases we cover, please email [e-mail] if you have actionable information about an unsolved crime, please report it to the appropriate authorities.

[Anya Cain]

If you're interested in joining our Patreon, that's available at www.patreon.com murdersheet. If you want to tip us a bit of money for records requests, you can do so at www.buymeacoffee.com. murder Sheet. We very much appreciate any support.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Special thanks to Kevin Tyler Greenlee, who composed the music for the Murder Sheet and who you can find on the web@Kevin TG.com.

[Anya Cain]

if you're looking to talk with other listeners about a case we've covered, you can join the Murder Sheet discussion group on Facebook. We mostly focus our time on research and reporting, so we're not on social media much. We do try to check our email account, but we ask for patience as we often receive a lot of messages. Thanks again for listening.

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