C (2:19)

I have faith and confidence in you.

B (2:21)

Well, I appreciate that.

C (2:22)

And as a spoiler, your lack of confidence around hats is something we will be discussing at the tail end of the program.

B (2:29)

You know what? But here's the thing. Like, it's not even just that. It's just knowing what's appropriate and, and being.

C (2:36)

We talk about it.

B (2:36)

We're talking having social graces.

C (2:38)

Let's put a pin in it. Let's put a pin in it.

B (2:41)

Yeah.

C (2:41)

Come back later.

B (2:42)

I guess. I guess the debate will continue later. All right, let's go into it. My name is Anya Cain. I'm a journalist.

C (2:48)

And I'm Kevin Greenlee. I'm an attorney.

B (2:51)

And this is the Murder Sheet.

C (2:52)

We're a true crime podcast focused on original reporting, interviews, and deep dives into murder cases. We're the cheat sheet. By which I mean we're the murder sheet.

B (3:02)

Are you seriously not going to just redo that?

C (3:04)

I mean, aren't we just. These are our friends. Do you want me to redo it?

B (3:09)

Let's just go on. And this is the cheat sheet. Cancer and cake. Sam,

C (4:01)

You take the first case, right?

B (4:02)

Yeah. So we're going to Utah first. And this is a case that certainly got a lot of attention. My primary source for this one is the Salt Lake Tribune, and they did a comprehensive article on this. And, you know, we didn't follow this case live. So I'm, you know, I just kind of touching upon some things because a listener asked us to, and we appreciate that listener reaching out and kind of giving us a sense of something that they want to hear about more. But this is the murder of Corey Rich. This is the murder of Eric Richards who was married to a woman named Corey Richards, who was just convicted of his murder. And we're going to get into some of the kind of twists and turns, some of the evidence presented at trial. We've actually heard about this case from a couple people. The person who asked us to cover it and answer some of these questions also some people who reached out and they said, hey, I don't really feel like the prosecution proved its case. Other people who said, I think she's guilty. So it's, it's a case that's gotten a lot of discussion. It's a case that has prompted people to feel differently about things. And that's all okay in true crime. So. So anyways, so Corey Richards was married to 39 year old Eric Richards. They're raising three boys together I believe. And they were in, you know, she was a real estate agent, he was a contractor and they were having problems in their marriage. And the way we can kind of say that because every marriage is different. It's, can, it can be hard to say what's going on, but there's some kind of concrete clues that were kind of came up in this trial which occurred over three weeks. I think they had about like 40 witnesses just recently. But in, in 2020, in October 13th specifically, Eric went to an estate planning lawyer and essentially claimed that there was like misuse and abuse of his finances by his wife and that he wanted to protect himself from that. Then November 3rd, he removed his wife as the beneficiary of his half a million dollar life insurance policy and then put his, his home and company interest into a trust managed by his sister Katie. So okay, what are your thoughts on that? First of all, as far as like indications in a marriage? Asks your wife if you started doing this?

C (6:31)

I would be very, yeah, it, it, it certainly does raise some alarm especially for people like us who follow true crime so closely.

B (6:39)

Yeah. And like, you know, I mean I, I, I mean we have a, I love you very much and we have a good marriage. Every, every marriage can have its ups and downs or people fight or there disagreements or there are things that need to be worked on. But there's that and then there's like, I don't trust my wife and I want to put all this stuff in a separate trust because I'm concerned about ongoing abuse and misuse of what I mean, of my money.

C (7:06)

Right.

B (7:07)

Like that's like a breach. Like that's like, I don't know how you go back from that honestly, because it's like if you can't trust somebody, then what are you doing? Anyways, June 29, 2021, that is when Corey Richards is, was accused by prosecutors of falsifying a bank statement and you know, essentially doing some financial misdeeds around this. And basically when basically in response to some of the kind of pushback from the bank, she said that she was separating from her husband. Okay, so more indications of trouble in the richens marriage. Then in August of that year she submitted another fake bank statement and wanted to get a, in order to get a loan. So, so she's committing fraud. According to prosecutors, um, in 2021 she told somebody that she was felt trapped in the marriage and that it would be better if her husband was dead. Obviously a concerning statement given the, what happened in 2022, she applied for a life insurance policy for her husband with herself as the beneficiary. And he for seemingly forged his signature on the application, and he had no affiliation or seeming knowledge of what she was doing with that. And then February 14, 2022, things get even more disturbing. Eric tells a friend that that day his wife brought him a sandwich from a local restaurant. He ate some of it and then broke out in hives and felt like he was going to die. This is not a guy with food allergies. So he's just randomly getting this. He told his friend that he felt that Richen's. That the. Corey poisoned him, Pop, you know, and then what. What the prosecutor's theory is that she attempted to poison him with fentanyl at that point. And in the meantime, Corey has established a relationship with a woman named Carmen Lauber. And Carmen testified at trial that Corey had asked her to get prescription pain pills. She was like her drug connection, in other words. And. And this is, I think, where some people who were more feeling like, hey, I think maybe the prosecution didn't have a strong case. They were sort of like, this person is doing, you know, drugs and stuff. So maybe they're not super credible. I think it wasn't necessarily just the fact that that was her background. It was. I don't think they found her credible on the stand. Others, I think, did find her credible. So I think there's just some disagreement with people based on that. But she testified on, under oath that Corey was asking for pills. She was getting them from a man named Robert Crozier at a. They were meeting up at a gas station. And there is evidence to back this up because their phone data location places them at that same gas station on the dates where they were supposed to be doing these. So, like, some of what she's saying is being backed up by independent corporation. And Corey apparently was asking for stronger stuff, quote the. The Michael Jackson stuff, end quote, which prosecutors took to mean as fentanyl. So, like, that's where there's seemingly drugs coming into the household. Then in February 26, 2022, Carmen purchased more fentanyl and she needed stronger pills. On March 4, 2022, Corey Richards calls 911 at 3:21am in the morning to say that her husband Eric is not breathing. And he was pronounced dead at 4:58am and she claims that she made him a vodka or a Moscow mule, went to sleep with one of their kids, and then came back and found him cold and unresponsive. So Dr. Pamela Sue Ulmer testified that Eric had no fatal heart disease. This was not a stroke. There was not a natural cause for this. In fact, the toxicology indicated what the cause was, and that was five times the lethal dose of fentanyl in his system. The state argued that this was consistent with poisoning versus some accidental overdose. Obviously, fentanyl is really complicated because you can die from fentanyl pretty easily, and it's not like it's a regulated thing if you're getting it illegally. So it's not to say that no one can accidentally overdose on fentanyl, but certainly five times the lethal dose is pretty extreme.

C (11:43)

That's pretty extreme.

B (11:46)

So from there, you know, the, the. The following day, Corey Richards signed a multimillion dollar deal about a mansion she wanted to flip, which Eric hadn't wanted her to do. So. And then the following day, she got into a confrontation and apparently assaulted one of Eric's sisters after disagreeing about what would happen to the. Her home because a lawyer had told her that Eric had placed the home into a trust. And yeah, after the, after the death, he. Corey Richards made some interesting searches. I'll read those. What happens to deleted messages? How do police and forensic analysts recover deleted data from phones? Signs of being under federal investigation. Cause of death usually does not impact life insurance payment. So, yeah, there's some, some concerning signs there. What is a lethal dose of fentanyl? How long do life insurance companies take to pay? And then she's kind of most infamous for then writing a children's book on grief called are you with me? In May of 2023, she was arrested and charged with a number of financial crimes as well as aggravated murder. Her defense attorney was Katherine Nestor, who we're following in the Tyler Robinson case, where he's accused of murdering Charlie Kirk. And so this is the same lawyer for both. And one thing that a listener was confused by was the defense. The prosecution presented a number of witnesses, and then the defense argued that they'd not made their case and actually called on the judge to rule on the case rather than allow the jury to deliberate. So that is an effort, in my view, to almost be like, hey, Judge, we're. We're kind of hoping this didn't do enough for you. Let's, like, why don't we just call it. We've seen that happen in cases where the judge is like, hey, the, the prosecution didn't present enough evidence to substantiate this. I'm calling it. We've seen that.

C (13:56)

We have seen that.

B (13:58)

So that can happen. So why would a defense do that? Just in case? Yeah, I guess, you know, I mean, like you're hoping now, the, the judge denied that, so the judge obviously did not agree. And then the defense rested without calling witnesses or recalling other witnesses who they said they might have wanted to recall. I. I think there could be a couple of reasons why a defense team might do something like that. I think to people on the outside that can seem really weak. It's like, what, you're not gonna, you're not gonna try, you're not gonna call anybody. But there can be a number of circumstances where that makes sense for a defense to do.

C (14:36)

Yeah. In one circumstance, certainly, if you think the prosecution has done such a bad job presenting their case that you don't even need to try to answer it, then why bother, you know, because obviously, as we all know, the defense doesn't have any burden. It's not up to the defense to prove anything. It's up to the prosecution to prove their case. So the defense is under no obligation to present anything. Save money, look better. Shop our sponsor Quints today and refresh your wardrobe with some new styles for spring.

B (15:14)

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C (15:27)

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B (18:18)

It's a matter of there's that. And now I've talked to defense attorneys where they say that's a really bad idea. Yes, you're technically allowed to do that, but it looks weak to a jury. It looks, it looks bad. It looks like you're not trying and it's a risky move. So I've heard people criticize it and I agree with that. I mean I think it does look weak personally. It's like what, you don't have anything to say back. On the other hand, they've had a. Here's the thing, if there's a limited number of fact witnesses in a case, people who can testify to the facts of what happened, and you don't have any experts who are willing to give you anything that can bolster your side, sometimes I think maybe this is the only thing to do. You don't Want to sub born perjury or put anyone up and say something that's nonsense. I mean, frankly, I kind of think some people kind of walk close to the line with doing that, but other defense attorneys would be like, no, I'm not doing that. So there's an element of, like, if there's a kind of like if the prosecution has called all these witnesses and they're kind of predominantly the fact witnesses and there's nothing really to say back then, there's a limit to what you can call, I would say, hard to know what their strategy was here. But, you know, I mean, it is a strategy and in some cases it can be a power move because you're basically saying that was it. Are you serious? Jury? Wow. Well, we're, we're not even gonna, we're not even gonna respond to that because that, that was nothing. That's all you got. I could see that working in some instances. It did not work here. So after that, the, there was also a debate over the, you know, the charges and like, you know, based on how the evidence was presented, redacting certain language. And our listener asked, like, how can a jury unhear evidence? I mean, the simple answer is they, they can't. They can't. The more complicated answer is, I guess you would hope that people, if they're instructed a certain way, not regard certain evidence, would set it aside. But it is hard to live with the genie back in the bottle. I think from a realistic perspective, from the perspective of the law, we have to have trust in our jury system. We have to have trust in our peers. And if they're told, hey, do not base it on this or strike that from the record, jury disregard. You hope that they follow those instructions. But there's a risk with that, obviously. So ultimately, the jury came back after three hours, guilty on all counts. And they said it was not a hard debate. They said they felt really bad, some of the jurors felt really bad for the kids and didn't want to break up the family, but everyone agreed she was guilty. So that's the way the Corey Richards case went down. The kind of conclusion to that, again, I've heard from people who kind of had both, both sides of the equation. I don't feel like they proved it or others people saying, she's obviously guilty. I, I, you know, I don't, having not watched the case that closely, I don't have a very strong opinion about it. But it, there's some interesting things that came about it certainly legally, and that's what happened in Utah?

C (21:29)

So now we're going to journey to Alaska. And my source for this is the Alaska news source, as well as a Facebook page for Chuckleheads. This case also has an Arizona tie. Anya, I know you've been to Alaska. You've clambered over glaciers.

B (21:49)

I have.

C (21:50)

Have you ever been to Arizona?

B (21:52)

Only on a layover.

C (21:54)

Yeah. I was in Arizona once, close to 30 years ago and I always have very positive feelings towards the state because there was, this is before the Internet really became a thing and there was a really, there was a book I wanted to that was been out of print since the 30s and it was very, very hard to find. And there was a bookstore there that had an affordable copy.

B (22:19)

Oh, wow.

C (22:20)

So I always think of that when I think of Arizona, even though that book ended up being completely unreadable. But I own it now.

B (22:28)

Thanks, Arizona.

C (22:32)

Anya, wouldn't you imagine that if, God forbid, you got a diagnosis from a doctor that you were dying, that that would really make you reassess your life and make you really want to make the most of what time you have left?

B (22:54)

Yeah, I mean, I would like to think that, yeah, I probably fall into a tremendous depression, but. But that's just me, folks.

C (23:03)

Well, this case is about a man named Matthew Thomas Becker, a 61 year old man who got that news and what he decided was, well, what I'm going to do is I'm going to go from Arizona where I own a comedy club all the way up to Alaska and try to kill my ex wife and my former father in law.

B (23:27)

Oh my goodness.

C (23:29)

Yes. It's really horrifying to think that's what he chose to do with his final time here on Earth. As I say, he owned a comedy club in Arizona. It actually, as I say, it's called Chuckleheads. It's in Bisbee, Arizona, which is a very small town. I look has about 5,000 people. I even went to the Facebook page for Chuckleheads and it sounds like that establishment is now closed for good. The former social media manager of Chuckleheads posted a message. I'll read some of it. Quote, matt Becker was a complicated man to say the least. He tried to make every patron who walked through the door of Chuckleheads have a fun and unforgettable time. Unless he tried to use the bathroom without buying something. With that being said, the quote that has stuck with me through all of this has been his last actions ruined every positive memory I had of him that couldn't sum up my feelings any better. As I write this, I honestly can't think of any fun memories without thinking of the daughter who lost their father. To make this tragedy about anything else than the murder of an innocent 87 year old man is wrong and shameful. There is no convoluted cancer, medicated induced rational argument that will ever bring that dad back. And then he concludes by writing this story can't be summed up in a tweet or Facebook post. A father's life can't fit into a news article. It's tragic that a person can enter someone's life and monumentally alter its trajectory, scarring and traumatizing it forever. End quote.

B (25:24)

It ends with rest in peace, Romaine

C (25:25)

Clark, which is the name of the 87 year old man who was Mr. Becker's former father in law.

B (25:32)

Can I, can I actually read a paragraph from this? Because I really am impressed. Honestly. When those first couple lines, I was getting ready to get really annoyed and roll my eyes like, are you kidding me? But I feel like this is what needs to be said in a situation like this. Quote. Matt ruined everything that the team at Chuckleheads ever tried to build. The idea of a comedy club against the world in a small market that was never supposed to work. Sure, he owned the club, but it only worked because of the amazing people behind the scenes that helped him build it and the comedians who hit the stage just trying to make people laugh. Keyword tried. Though in hindsight, maybe we shouldn't have. The place only existed because of the sweat and tears of others. The audience members that came to the shows and the bar staff that kept the glasses full. I feel like that's something that is getting lost. Chuckleheads wasn't just a club Matt ran. It was a place where people went to escape the realities. Well, those days are over and we must deal with the reality of today. A man is dead because of his actions. It's horrible that he turned tears of joy into tears of tragedy. God, that's corny. End quote. They're saying essentially this is like you see this sometimes where you have a popular figure, do something awful and people kind of try to rationalize it or defend it or oh well, we can still enjoy what he did. And this, I mean, they're saying, nope, it's dead, it's gone. Any I like that his last actions ruined every positive memory I had of him. I think that needs to be in the, in the modern day parlance for all of us. If we, if we know someone who then, you know, beyond a shadow of a doubt does something awful. We may have Positive memories of that person. And that's okay. People are complicated. But there are some things that are so egregious and so awful that those positive memories don't matter anymore.

C (27:14)

Yeah, I remember was it a year or so ago that a YouTuber stalked and killed his wife and then himself at a gas station? And I remember people who knew that YouTuber had like a roundtable discussion basically about how great a guy he was, at least up until that point.

B (27:34)

It's like, no, he wasn't. Not if you're capable, if you're capable of doing that. The only instance that I will carve out for somebody not being a complete monster is in cases of serious mental illness where you don't know what you're doing. I don't mean the appearance of mental illness in general. I just mean, like, to the point where you have no idea what your actions are in those cases. I don't think people who are suffering from serious mental illness are monsters just because they do something that's horrible. Everybody else is though, like, and, and like, it's not a situation where it's like, oh, you made a selfish and crappy choice and it, oh, you know, it hurts some people. It's like you killed somebody. You can't undo that. There's no one doing that, you know, and, and, and that I, I remember being so disgusted seeing people rush to defend that guy and act like it's more complicated than it, no, it's really not. He'd make it. He made a choice to show up to her workplace, pull a trigger and, and kill her, and then he died by suicide. That's not complicated.

C (28:46)

Yeah, he, he committed this crime and then he took his own life.

B (28:50)

And in this case, unfortunately, something very similar happened. But I, I'm happy to see people in this person's life at least saying, no, it's wrecked. His legacy is wrecked. There's nothing, you know, and frankly, it kind of just wrecks everything he did retrospectively. And we can kind of all have to move on from that. And it, it's not the people's fault who helped him build the business, but it's over.

C (29:08)

Yeah. And I, I, I was impressed. He said, don't even try to make arguments that maybe was the fault of medication.

B (29:14)

Yeah, yeah. That's not, that's not how that works. What a horrible situation.

C (29:19)

Yeah. Going all the way up to Alaska, killing his former father in law and trying to kill his former wife. The amount of anger and hatred and violence in the heart of a person like that is Unfathomable.

B (29:34)

No. And it's like, it's just, it's just selfish and disgusting and it should destroy his legacy. And it does destroy his legacy. It's a, it's not an 87 year old man. I mean, just. What a coward. So are we out of Alaska?

C (29:52)

Yes.

B (29:52)

Slash Arizona?

C (29:53)

Yes. So now where are you going to take us? You've taken off your cowboy hat, you put on your train engineer's hat. Where are you taking us now?

B (30:02)

We're going to Iowa.

C (30:03)

Iowa.

B (30:05)

And this is a case where we actually had a suggestion, another suggestion from a listener. And I got up, I, I got, I got into this one because this one is bizarre. And it takes place in Des Moines, specifically West Des Moines. And it involves a young lady named Ashley Oakland. She was an up and coming young realtor in 2011. That year. She was 27. She had graduated from Ballard High School in Kelly, Iowa in 2002. She was kind of described as kind of a grew up on a family farm, kind of a country girl. Her family called her Ash. She played volleyball and basketball. She was kind of the organizer of the family. And that makes sense because she was the oldest daughter, so she was the. Had a younger brother and sister, father named Tim. They all loved her. 2006, she graduated from Iowa State University. And she was just by all accounts, a great, a great lady. She was in a Bible study group. She was in Big Brothers, Big Sisters, Young Professionals Connection of Greater Des Moines, Des Moines Partnership, Young Veri. She was on a board for organization for for kids with disabilities, special needs, kids in need in general called Variety. And she had a boyfriend, Eric Grubb, and a pet dog named Indy. She and Eric were actually buying land together and he was going to propose to her very soon. And she was actually telling people she wanted to have a baby with him in 2012. So she was doing great and so was her career. She was a young realtor and she was kind of, kind of with a bunch of. She kind of moved around a bit. She was with something called JDR Group at one point. She was with Century 21 at one point. She was often photographed in different events in the Des Moines Register, like the Young Professionals Connection through the Greater Des Moines Partnership. She was at different, like, you know, parties and stuff. And she just seemed very social. And that makes sense for a realtor. You, you have to get out there. You have to be a member of the community in order to serve the community in that job. And you could see like her listings. I mean, she was doing A lot. She had a bunch of homes on Beech Tree Lane in West Des Moines, 30th Avenue in Norwalk or Lakewood. There was a split level on 84th Street. You, you, all around 9th Avenue, 30th Avenue, Rock Drive, Valdez Drive, Goodwin Street. In 2009, I think Century 21 posted her total sales volume as 3.4 million. And at one point it seemed like she was working a lot with houses built by Rotland Homes. That's going to be important later. But they were building homes in places like Bridgewood north, and then I guess she would kind of work with them and sell those. So those are also in places like Cody Drive, Rock Drive, and specifically the Stone Creek Villa Homes. So one home in particular stuck out to me as I did my research on Newspapers.com primarily through the Des Moines Register. It was 558 Stone Creek Court in West Des Moines. This was listed as a, quote, spacious and bright. Garrison and Hawthorne plans by Rotland Homes. Granite, stainless steel appliances, tile floors, nine foot ceilings, two car garage. Ideal West Des Moines location. Close to everything. Prices starting at $134,000. And another ad quote, ring in the new year in your new Rotland home. And these were kind of being sold there were different. It said models open daily, Monday through Friday, 1pm to 6pm, Saturday through Sunday, 1 to 5pm or by appointment. And Rutland Homes build itself as your builder for life, a name that turns out to be tragically ironic later. So Stone Creek Villas, to give you a sense, was a development near, I think it's been described as 184th or 86th Street street and EP True Parkway. It was in West Des Moines. And that was unfortunately, that 558 Stone Creek Court was the home where Ashley was murdered. So it's Friday, April 8, 2011. It's a rainy day in Des Moines. She is there waiting to show the unit to customers. And keep in mind, this is a multimillion dollar townhouse development, you know, so people are interested, they're. They want to come in, but she's waiting to do that. She's alone and a worker for Rotland Homes, which of course developed that subdivision. Here's a commotion. It's just been described as a commotion. I don't know what that means. If it's screaming, if it's banging, what's happening? And then he hears two gunshots or I say he, I don't know. Then the person hears two gunshots around 2pm he goes inside that home I mentioned, finds Ashley Oakland on the floor she is wounded. He calls 91 1. She had been shot twice. She's rushed to the hospital, but she dies at Iowa Methodist Medical Center. And that is all confirmed by the Polk county medical examiner, Gregory Schmunk, at the time. Now at that point, police tell the community they think it's an isolated incident, but Iowa Realty cancels all of its open houses. Police are seen towing a silver GMC crossover vehicle with Dallas county license plates. Her father, Tim Oakland tells the police she has no enemies. This doesn't make sense. 1600 people went to her funeral at the Lutheran Church of Hope in West Des Moines. And people were talking about, like, what does this mean for realtors? Like, is there someone going around? Unfortunately, there is a certain category of crimes that occurs with realtors. I think you even had a relative.

C (36:02)

I had a relative who was a realtor, who was a victim of a,

B (36:05)

of a crime, a brutal kidnapping.

C (36:08)

Yes.

B (36:09)

And who was only saved because the sheriff happened to see her hanging out of a car and, and swooped into action. So this is a situation where it's very unfortunate, but the nature of the job puts people, often women, but men have been victimized too, alone with people who may have ill intent. And actually that had happened in February. An area realtor had been assaulted and attacked by two men who robbed her. But they were arrested. They. So you know, they weren't on the list of what, who could have done this to Ashley. But Polk County Crime Stoppers put up a $10,000 reward. Police issued search warrants. Nothing came of it. They really wanted to talk to a scruffy young man who had a black souped up SUV seen talking to Oakland several times in February and March outside of the very model home where she was shot. They never, as of 2012, they didn't, they didn't know who that was. They thought it was maybe another realtor. They thought it may not be someone, a perpetrator, but more of a witness, but they couldn't figure that one out, at least according to newspapers. They may have since verified that.

C (37:17)

But

B (37:19)

yeah, they, they, I mean, in 2012, the, the year after the murder, they're still tracking, following 700 leads, 550 interviews, but they said very few of those were promising at all. They were actually looking at the suicide of a 52 year old real estate agent who had died two months after Oakland, but they felt that was likely not connected. As of 2012, there were two West Des Moines investigators on the case. And I mean, the reward went all the way up to $150,000, nothing. They looked into Aaron Michael Lewis of Jacksonville, Arkansas, who killed realtor Beverly Carter. Nothing. And then it was basically about remembering Ashley. I mean, she was a tremendous person in the community. She didn't get to do all that she wanted to do, but she had done a lot. In 2014, they built a Ashley Oakland Star playground on Indianola Avenue. And that was for kids with cognitive and physical disabilities to make a nice space for them to play because of her work and to reflect her kind and inclusive personality and her work with variety. And they also named a Young Professionals Connection Award for a service in the community. Now, in 2024, the Des Moines Register reported that Iowa Attorney General Brenna Byrd was founding a new unit for cold cases to look into unsolved killings and disappearances. Now, police would probably argue that this case never was fully cold because they were still working it. But it was, you know, these kind of high profile cases that are unsolved and need answers. Oakland's family was on the record welcoming that. And they even went to the press conference and apparently three investigators and one prosecutor were assigned to this unit. Well, just recently, whatever they were doing produced some results. Police and prosecutors brought a case to a grand jury. And that grand jury on Tuesday indicted 53 year old Kristen Elizabeth Ramsey. Police indicated in a press conference that a missing piece had brought everything together. No idea what that is. So, yes, you heard that right, Chris. And Elizabeth Ramsey, this is a woman. Not what I was expecting, frankly, because not to say that women can't kill each other, but usually in cases like this, you're looking at a man. Men are much more likely to murder each other and women than women are. So that alone makes it an unusual case. And I will be very interested to see more details coming out because whenever you have an unusual case, things are a bit different. It's bound to be an interesting and disturbing story. And some background on Ramsey. She worked as an administrative assistant and sales manager at where Rotland Homes.

C (40:05)

That's interesting.

B (40:06)

The developer of the townhouse where she was shot. Okay, so what's going on with that? I don't know. But Rotland is, you know, is in this. Obviously that doesn't mean like it's a bad company or everyone there is bad. It's just more of like, it's just interesting that it tied back to her work in such a direct way. Now, that was at the time. Ramsey is now an employee at Midland Title and Escrow, which happens to be connected to Iowa Realty, where Oakland worked before she died. So she's facing first degree murder charges. I would be really curious to see what was the nature of the dispute. What was the nature of her feeling like, I'm gonna go kill this woman, this young woman with her whole life ahead of her. I mean, it's really appalling that this was done to Ashley. And I'll be. I'm hoping that whatever happens can go, I guess, can go towards her family receiving some answers. But we'll. I mean, everyone's innocent until proven guilty, so I guess we're gonna have to just see what the prosecutors and the police have dug up here.

C (41:13)

Yeah, we're definitely keeping an eye on this one. Now. I believe we are going to go to the Buckeye State, Ohio where we were last week and we're going to talk about that a little bit later. My source for this is CNN.com and correct me if I'm wrong, Anya, we recently talked about not a murder case but a defamation case in which a woman was going on TikTok and very, very seriously accusing a person of murder. And that didn't work out for the tiktoker and she lost a pretty substantial defamation case.

B (41:53)

That's right, yeah.

C (41:55)

Was that last week? The week before it was re.

B (41:57)

I don't. I don't remember. But it was recently.

C (42:00)

That's why they call us the human computers. We have database in our mind of all of these details at a moment to notice.

B (42:09)

Right.

C (42:12)

Well, this case ended up going a different way. I'm curious before I start talking about this, had you followed this case at all? This is the case of Afroman.

B (42:20)

Nope.

C (42:22)

So Afroman is a gentleman. He performs rap music and back in.

B (42:29)

I'm assuming that's a nom de plume. What's his actual name?

C (42:32)

His legal name. Afroman's legal name is Joseph Foreman.

B (42:36)

Okay.

C (42:37)

But I always enjoy calling people by the names that they like to use.

B (42:42)

Okay, so that's a performance name, but that's the name he prefers.

C (42:45)

As far as I know, most of the coverage of this case refers to him as Afroman.

B (42:50)

Okay.

C (42:50)

And that's certainly more fun to say.

B (42:52)

Okay. Yeah, I just want to. Okay, go ahead.

C (42:55)

If you want to call him Mr. Foreman.

B (42:57)

I just, I want to be respectful of someone and I, you know, using their kind of performance name is, you know, could be what they prefer. Could be, could be not what they prefer. I just don't know.

C (43:08)

We always call you by your performance name, Anya instead of your real name, Jessica. I don't know what I'm saying.

B (43:15)

I don't Know what you're saying?

C (43:16)

Either your real name is Anya.

B (43:17)

Yes.

C (43:18)

Yes. So, Afra man, back in 2022,

B (43:27)

he

C (43:27)

was in a situation where police had a warrant came to his house to do a search because they thought maybe kidnapping. All sorts of things going on. They do a big search, they find no evidence of a crime. They tear up his house. He says guns were waved around and some of his kids were traumatized by this. And again, he says, I had nothing to do with whatever they were they were searching for. And so the way he basically, for lack of a better word, gets his revenge is by using his art. And he does songs and videos in which he makes fun of these detectives. Apparently, he uses some of the body cam footage. And at one point, a detective is looking kind of longingly at some lemon cake on a table, and so he makes fun of him for that. He even ends up going further and makes fun of some personal things about these deputies, which isn't true. I think he suggested they had sexual proclivities or were personally dishonest. And the deputies didn't like that. They said, hey, we were just doing our job. Now you're making fun of us. You're mean. Stop it. And they sued him for defamation. And the fact is, we do have a First Amendment in this country. You are allowed, if someone comes in and searches your home and makes a mess of it and scares your kids, you're allowed to make comments about it. And I think it's also important to remember that most people who listen to rap music or who watch those kind of videos know there's a certain amount of exaggeration. They know that what is being said is likely not literally true. I think in this case, at one point, they had someone come on the stand and said, oh, yes, my kids that I have with one of these deputies, they heard some of this stuff, but they didn't take it super seriously. They knew it wasn't literally true. And there was a line I wanted to quote from a statement made by Mr. Afroman's attorney. I'm going to read this quote, but I'm not going to use one word of it. And I think perhaps you can guess what that word is from the context. He says, quote, it's all entertainment. They made fun of everybody for entertainment. And some of it is a social commentary, but it is not fact. And everybody knows that nobody looks at Lil Wayne's song Pea Monster and says, there's a monster in that song. So, Anya, as I say, the jury said, no, there was no defamation Here. And it was a victory for the First Amendment. But what's your. What's your take on all this?

B (46:48)

I mean, I don't. I guess I just feel like, you know, it be. You know, people who are in law enforcement, like, you would think they would be kind of expecting public criticism or even some mockery. And listen, as people who have, you know, I mean, some people. Sometimes it can feel like harassment. But if people want to dunk on us or be like, you guys are losers or you guys stink, I. I don't know. Like, I'm not gonna sue them for it. You know, like, it's like, I might. I. At some point, you just kind of have to log off and ignore it. And it's. It's like by doing things like this, you sort of go into the Streisand effect and just make it a bigger.

C (47:26)

Do you. And I would not have heard about this if not for this suit.

B (47:30)

No, I just. I find it bizarre. Like, sometimes people need to be. Sometimes you need to sit people down and this is in every situation and just be like, just let it go. Like, it's. It's hard to let things go. As someone who finds it hard to let things go, but you just have to let most things go. You gotta let it go.

C (47:45)

That's. That's good advice. And I think what you say is even more true if you are a governmental official, because people have even more rights to attack and criticize and comment on actions of governmental officials, public figures.

B (48:01)

Here's the thing. Like, does it stink to have people say mean things about you? Yeah, but it also stinks to have your house raided and torn apart. You know? So, I mean, like, I guess I just. You have to have more of a sense of humor about it. Or even if you don't have a sense of humor about it, just. Just don't watch it or, you know, kind of just move on. And eventually Afroman or whoever's doing it will probably move on too. And. And then you're fine. I mean, it's just. It just seems like. I don't know. Like, I just don't understand why they even brought this in the first place. If, you know, if, like, listen, if he's making threats at them, if he. I'm gonna come kill these guys. Okay. I guess maybe I would understand more why there'd be some kind of, like, action done. Or at that point, I guess it becomes more of a criminal matter than a civil one. But unless he's, I don't know, like it. This just doesn't seem this. Especially them being in law enforcement. It just doesn't seem like. I understand why.

C (48:56)

I think what he did was a fair comment on what happened to him with some comic exaggeration.

B (49:04)

It just. It just, you know, like. Like I see the. The lawyer for the deputy saying, you know, doesn't justify telling intentional lies to design to hurt people. And I. I agree. I don't like when people lie to hurt people. But at the same time, just based on what you've described and what, you know, what you've looked into here, it also just sounds like. I don't know, there's. There's also a kind of a concept of, like, people kind of just roasting you or whatever. I don't know. It's like, are they intentional lies designed to hurt people? Like, what. How is it gonna hurt you if. If it's just, like, some stupid video or whatever?

C (49:41)

I don't know. Well, Anya, let's stay in Ohio and stay also on the topic of exaggeration that may not be literally true. And with that in mind, let's talk about all the hearts that were broken last week in Ohio. You said you're going to wear a big hat. You actually brought the big hat on the stage at our public appearance last week in Ohio. You did everything right except for the last step. You did not don't the big hat. As the crowd was sniffling and very sad about it.

B (50:18)

And where do I even go with endless preamble? I. I did. So, yeah, we went to Ohio. We had a blast. We had a great time with our friend Kim, who invited us, and then we met some new friends who were librarians, and it was just great. It was great to meet some of you there. Thanks to everyone who came, and thanks for being such a great group. The Marion County Public Library. So I brought a hat because Kevin jokingly referred to me wearing a hat on the cheat sheet, but I declined to don it on stage. And I will give a very obvious reason why. Some people who come to our events are quintessential murder sheet listeners who listen to all of our episodes and.

C (51:00)

As everyone should.

B (51:01)

As everyone should, obviously. And they know the lore, they know the jokes about hats and cereal and all this other stuff. And, you know, they would get it, and they would be delighted by me donning a hat. But many other people who come to these events are either people who are just interested in true crime in general and not super familiar with us, or who are just kind of there because, you know, they heard about it. Oh, I kind of remember that murder case. Let's see what these people have to say. And those people, if I got up and did a stupid bit about a hat, like, oh, here comes the hat, folks, hey, they're gonna think I'm either a lunatic or very tasteless. And I don't want to turn something that's a discussion ultimately about a very serious murder case into some kind of stupid, you know, skit involving me in hats because that makes me look like an asshole and I don't want to look like that in public. So I declined to make a big deal about the hat. I think I made the right call. I think everyone would understand that I made the right call. It wasn't me being a coward, maybe a little bit, but it wasn't me being fully a coward. It was also me trying to like, read the room and without knowing. Can you imagine, guys? I don't want to get up on a stage in Ohio. I never recover from this. Get up on a stage in Ohio and be like, here comes the hat. Hey, put it on. Dead silence. People looking at me with like uncomprehending eyes. I would, I would have to, I, I don't know. I have to, I have to hang up my hat after that.

C (52:26)

Well, I'll say we don't have to beat the hat drum endlessly. I've been traveling to Ohio many times throughout my life. I'm pretty sure that there have been occasions when I've been in Ohio where I've seen people wear hats. I think it's a hat friendly state. I think you've gotten a very hat friendly reception. I think maybe if you started wearing hats, people who run hat stores would

B (52:53)

start listening to the show, that, that crucial demographic.

C (52:58)

I, I, I, I've looked at the numbers. We are doing very poorly among hat store owners. So I'm just trying to fix it.

B (53:08)

I don't know what to tell you. I'm not gonna do that. I think if we go to something and I have a pretty good feeling like most people are gonna know who we are and what you know, then I'd be more comfortable doing that. But otherwise, I don't wanna scare people who are like new to the show.

C (53:22)

So maybe crime content, maybe, yeah, I'll

B (53:24)

bring a hat to Crime Con. I mean, I feel like people will be more like, oh, we've heard of, you know, we've heard this or that. The funniest thing, Kevin, is when we ever talk, like sometimes we talk to like a fancy guest, like a, you know, like a Hype like, someone and they'll, like, listen to our show a couple times to, like, get a feel for it before they talk to us. And inevitably they listen to Cheat Sheets and I'm just like, wow, okay, so now you think we're total goofballs with. Just think we're just weirdos, you know, listen to our serious episodes.

A (53:55)

Yeah.

C (53:55)

The other day you were interviewing somebody, a serious person, and they said, oh, yeah, Anya, what about this cockney accent I hear about? And I just left the room.

B (54:04)

Yeah.

C (54:05)

I think it was something you were talking about on Cheat Sheet. Yeah.

B (54:12)

Oops. Well, anyways, yeah, it's so funny, though, because, I mean, like, I always appreciate people listening and they usually say they enjoy it, but I'm just always like, more. I'm a little mortified because it's, you know, Kevin and I debating about trains or hats or, you know, what other manners of nonsense. We try to take the murder discussion seriously, but usually, usually things devolve in between that.

C (54:35)

Yes. So have a good weekend, everybody.

B (54:38)

Everybody. Thank you so much.

C (54:39)

Thanks so much for listening to the Murder Sheet. If you have a tip concerning one of the cases we cover, please email us@murdersheetmail.com. if you have actionable information about an unsolved crime, please report it to the appropriate authorities.

B (55:00)

If you're interested in joining our Patreon, that's available at www.patreon.com murdersheet. If you want to tip us a bit of money for records requests, you can do so at www. Buymeacoffee.com murdersheet. We very much appreciate any support.

C (55:23)

Special thanks to Kevin Tyler Greenlee, who composed the music for the Murder Sheet and who you can find on the web@kevintg.com if you're looking to talk with

B (55:35)

other listeners about a case we've covered, you can join the Murder Sheet discussion group on Facebook. We mostly focus our time on research and reporting, so we're not on social media much. We do try to check our email account, but we ask for patience as we often receive a lot of messages. Thanks again for listening.