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- [00:00]
A
It's getting cooler outside. That means layers. That means sweaters. Come on, murder sheep, people. It's fall, the best season. Let's go. Let's get ready. But also, let's stay calm and not blow our budgets. Let's get some quints, sharp styles, fashion staples that say evergreen. All for less money.
- [00:19]
B
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- [00:43]
A
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B
Quince also has tailored denim pieces and luxe outerwear and so much more. Go check out their stuff.
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A
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- [01:35]
B
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- [01:58]
A
Cornbread Hemp CBD gummies have made me feel so much better. I tense up a lot, so I often deal with tension headaches and things like neck pain. With tasty flavors like watermelon and berry, these gummies help me with the pain and sleeplessness that I sometimes deal with. I can take them in the middle of a hectic workday or even at night. Once I want to just relax and watch some kind of old mystery movie with Kevin. These gummies make me feel like my stress is just melting away.
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B
Cornbread Hemp provides a quality product. They use hemp flours to get you the purest Most potent CBD Cornbread products are all third party lab tested and are USDA organic. So what you're getting is safe and pure cbd. And as a reminder, CBD is non intoxicating right now.
- [02:44]
A
Murder Sheet listeners can save 30% on their first order. Just head to cornbreadhemp.com msheet and use code MSHEET at checkout. That's cornbread.com msheet and use code msheet.
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C
From 1989 to 1995, nurse Kristen Gilbert murdered four of her patients at the Veterans Affairs Medical center in Massachusetts and she's suspected of killing dozens more. On Mind of a Monster, a podcast from ID, criminal psychologist Dr. Michelle Ward dives into Kristen Gilbert's twisted mind to try and find out why she killed her patients and how she was able to do it in front of her colleagues. She speaks with detectives, journalists, nurses and victims families to unpack Gilbert's life and crimes on Ward circumstances. Listen to Mind of a Monster, the Killer Nurse wherever you get your podcasts.
- [03:47]
A
Content Warning this episode includes discussion of rape, sexual abuse, including the sexual abuse of a child, and murder, violence and the death penalty. So today on the Murder Sheet we're doing a lot of cases. We're going to Pennsylvania, New York, Arkansas, Missouri, Mississippi, back to Indiana and then finally to Texas.
- [04:15]
B
And I'm just doing my usual too. So you have gotten very ambitious and say you can do this and you maintain the high quality and we also won't be tired from our journeying from all these different places. You're very cocky. I never made a guarantee. I'm curious to see if you'll be able to pull it off.
- [04:40]
A
What are you talking. You did a theme, so I wanted to do a little bit of a theme and then a bonus one. Well, I guess two bonus ones, but three of my very ambitious.
- [04:48]
B
I'm just noting it.
- [04:50]
A
Well, we'll see if this falls apart mid episode. My name is Anya Cain, I'm a.
- [04:56]
B
Journalist and I'm Kevin Greenlee.
- [04:58]
A
I'm an attorney and this is the Murder Sheet.
- [05:01]
B
We're a true crime podcast focused on original reporting, interviews and deep dives into murder cases. We're the Murder Sheet and this is.
- [05:10]
A
The Cheat Sheet Candidates and convicts. So this first one was a case we previously covered and it is a recommendation from a listener to give it another look. And our sources are KDK Radio and the Butler Eagle. This is the cold case disappearance of 8 year old Cherry Mahan. She disappeared on February 22, 1985 as she left her School bus in Winfield Township in Butler county in Pennsylvania. She was supposed to go on a play date. Her stepfather, Leroy McKinney, heard the bus pull up and figured he'd let her walk because she liked to walk and it was nice out. And they lived on this sort of steep, hidden dirt path. But she never made it to the house. She only had 50ft to walk. Never made it home. Vanished. There was a 1970s era bluish green Dodge van with a kind of some sort of like, mural thing with a skier on a slope on the side. She's never been found. If you have any information, please call. Call investigators at 724-284-8100. Now, what's interesting about this right now is that a Iowa based private investigator named Steve Ridge has made statements that there's been a team of cadaver dogs looking for Cherry's remains. So tragic, obviously, but what he says is that a recent, or I guess some kind of a hundred thousand dollar reward is generating tips and they're checking some of these out. And he even said that a tip came in from a man who claims he knew what happened to her, that somebody was. This guy was with somebody. And that somebody got off a phone and said something like, well, I guess you now know I was responsible for Cherry's abduction. So I'll just tell you the whole story, end quote. I'm obviously pretty skeptical about people coming forward years later because why wouldn't you come forward earlier? A lot of people out there just looking for attention and for some interest in their own lives. But I really do hope that they can find this girl. It's a huge tragedy and, yeah, hopefully some answers can come about. So that's my first one. So now from Pennsylvania onto New York.
- [08:02]
B
Yes, New York, indeed. And so my sources for this were multifold. I consulted the Hudson Valley Post, the Boston Globe, via newspapers.com, that well renowned matchmaking site, and also CBS news.com and my attention was first drawn to this because I saw a headline about a presidential candidate being involved in a murder. So my mind went somewhere where it shouldn't have gone because there's certainly no one who you voted for. I find presidential candidates generally very, very interesting because it takes a special, for lack of a better word, a special type of person to get up and look in the mirror and say, by God, that's the guy me who should run the affairs of the United States of America. And I say, guy, maybe women also. Of course, that's the woman. That's me. That's the person who should chart the course of the United States of America. You have to be incredibly confident, maybe delusional, maybe. Well, we'll get to that. Maybe a little bit arrogant, but very confident in yourself and your abilities. But it's one thing for a person to have those qualities after a lifetime of accomplishment and achievement. And so whether you're a Republican or a Democrat, you can look at different people and say, well, this person's been in the Senate. This person's been a governor. This person's had a very successful business, business career. It's plausible. Maybe they also are offering really common sense solutions to the problems that face this great nation and just by their ideas alone qualify them in addition to their lifetime of accomplishment. So when I found out this guy, Lawrence Krauss was a former presidential candidate, I tried to find out, okay, he's a former presidential candidate. What was his platform? And I'm a guy. I love crank platforms.
- [10:23]
A
I know you do.
- [10:25]
B
I love it when people come up with really complicated ways to reform the calendar or to change the spellings of words to make them make more sense. So this guy is a crank. Didn't find a lot of details about his platform, but I did find a reference to it in the Boston Globe. This guy, this presidential candidate who's involved with the murder, his platform was to divide the United States into four separate countries as part of his effort to break the control of the deep State. British agents, Rhodes scholars, and of course, the Jews.
- [11:06]
A
Oh, God. So that's quite a group. First of all, you don't.
- [11:14]
B
What? Yeah, anti anti Semitic. Also hates the British, Hates the Rhodes Scholars. Hates the Deep State, the Rhodes scholars.
- [11:25]
A
I'm so, like, I don't mean to laugh. I mean, that's horrible. He's obviously nuts and also anti. Semitic. But also, like, what? I mean, God, whatever. Okay.
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B
Did he imagine he would, like, get up and give, give a speech, and people say, yes, let's break up the country into four parts?
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A
Is one part going to each group? I mean, there's four groups listed, and then they have four. I don't even know.
- [11:47]
B
I, I, Oddly enough, I, I wasn't able. In, in my research process, which admittedly wasn't long, I did not find too many details, but I did find that there was this candidates forum that this gentleman wrote about in the Boston Globe, which at one point got into a screaming match between Mr. Krause and another candidate.
- [12:13]
A
Yeah, that sounds about right.
- [12:15]
B
So when we see the headline about a presidential candidate involved in a murder, it's technically True, because he did run for office. I think if you went to like New Hampshire or wherever and paid a filing fee, you could run for president.
- [12:32]
A
I'm not going to.
- [12:34]
B
Well, maybe you should consider it.
- [12:36]
A
I have some pretty good ideas if.
- [12:38]
B
That is the baseline.
- [12:40]
A
Yeah, I think I could do better than that. I think.
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B
Off the top of your head.
- [12:43]
A
Well, first of all, I'm not anti Semitic, so I think that's a plus. I already, I'm already better than this guy. But no, I mean, wow.
- [12:50]
B
And you're kind of a Rhodes Scholar fangirl because your bedroom is full of like Tiger Beat style posters of the Rhodes scholars.
- [12:59]
A
I'm this guy's worst nightmare. What a weird image. Let's just move along. Okay.
- [13:12]
B
So he had two parents, as I guess all of us do. His two parents were survivors of World War II who came from Germany. They were 92 and 83. And at some point people stopped seeing them. And the implication is people just kind of assumed, well, they went back to Germany. Nothing to be seen here. No reason for concern, no reason for alarm. People go back to Germany, but they still seem to be. Even though they're not there and no one is seeing them, their government benefits are still being collected and used and they're being used by their sons. So an investigation is done, a search is consulted, the backyard is dug up, and the bodies of Mr. Kraus parents are discovered. And at that point, Mr. Kraus, who I guess because of his presidential experience imagines he's media savvy, he sends out a two page statement to various news outlets. And this statement very helpfully includes his phone number. And so the local CBS outlet says, okay, this is an interesting statement. We'll be happy to put it on our website, but only if you come in for an interview.
- [14:55]
A
Oh, my God.
- [14:57]
B
He comes in for an interview with one of the anchors, a man named Greg Floyd. And initially during this interview, he's kind of vague as to how his parents died. But eventually he says, oh, yeah, I killed him. And he describes killing his parents during this television interview, after which he is immediately arrested. And then, oddly enough, even after he's arrested and he is incarcerated, the anchor goes to the jail visiting area. And Krause agrees. Yeah, I'll talk to you some more. And their conversation at this point is overheard. Pardon me, it's overheard by a public defender for another client. And he's like, wait a minute, why are you doing this?
- [15:55]
A
Lawyer's got to ruin everything for the journalists. Isn't that true?
- [16:01]
B
Because it's well known that I've wrecked your life.
- [16:03]
A
Journalists are just trying to have fun and get a guy to confess to murder, and lawyers have to come and throw cold water on it. Boo. Just go focus on your own client.
- [16:14]
B
But, yeah, so it's problematic. It's bizarre problematic.
- [16:18]
A
I mean, like, that's a pretty damning that. I mean, that interview is probably gonna be used at its trial.
- [16:22]
B
Yes, if there is a trial. I say that because there's always a possibility of a plea or some sort of mental illness being used.
- [16:32]
A
Mental illness seems like it could be in play here, but at the same time, I mean, he's still collecting their.
- [16:37]
B
Benefits and he's using them.
- [16:39]
A
Yeah, I don't know. That kind of doesn't speak to some.
- [16:42]
B
So he now faces a variety of charges, and presumably he will not be giving any more interviews to CBS or any other outlets.
- [16:50]
A
Crank stuff is all fun and games, but some of these people do turn out to be violent and lunatics. And so I think, like, you know, it's upsetting. It's upsetting that, you know, this guy's running around on a, you know, bigoted platform, and then he's turning around and killing people. I mean, I think there is something about the crank makeup where some of them are pretty much harmless as far as physically hurting anyone else, but some of them aren't.
- [17:18]
B
I should try to say that he tried to make it sound as if his parents knew what he was doing and that he was doing it as a kind of mercy killing, but there's no indication that his parents had any terminal illnesses. And, like, one of the things, like, his father had cataracts, and so he couldn't drive anymore. That doesn't really seem.
- [17:41]
A
It doesn't scream mercy kill.
- [17:42]
B
That doesn't seem to me something. Oh, now my quality of life is so bad, I need to die. Yeah. Wow. And his mother had recently fallen while crossing a road.
- [17:53]
A
And you said that they survived World War II, but they weren't Jewish themselves. They were just. They were German.
- [17:58]
B
That's not. It's not clear in the story. It just says they were World War II survivors.
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A
That's a weird way to say that. What side did they survive on?
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B
Well, they apparently are from Germany. Okay, so that. That could be. That could be a clue.
- [18:15]
A
Yeah. I mean, again, it also. They could just be normal German people who aren't anti Semitic and then just raise someone who had these issues. Yeah, that can happen. Someone can become radicalized. So no disparagement to the victims. We just don't Know, I just think that's. I'm more of criticizing the news coverage. That's a weird way of putting it.
- [18:33]
B
Yes.
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A
You know, okay, but the, the ultimate.
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B
Tragedy is those, those two people who lost their lives at the hands of their son.
- [18:43]
A
Yep.
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B
And it sounds like he decided that the government benefits were more important than the lives of his parents.
- [18:50]
A
Yeah, we've run into some pretty creepy people in our true crime journey. And we've even gotten some threats as a result. Safety is often top of mind for Kevin and I.
- [19:00]
B
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- [19:33]
A
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- [19:51]
B
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- [20:15]
A
Right now, my listeners can save 50% on a SimpliSafe home security system at simplisafe.com msheet that's simplisafe.com msheet there's no safe like simply safe. So it's definitely not qualified to be our president on a number of levels.
- [20:33]
B
Well, maybe now that he's going to presumably go to prison, he can come up with some ideas. Like split up the prisons into four units or something. I don't know.
- [20:43]
A
Wow, you find the weirdest cases.
- [20:49]
B
Is that a compliment?
- [20:50]
A
Yeah, it is a compliment. That's what the cheat sheet's all about.
- [20:53]
B
Babe, the weird cases.
- [20:55]
A
Yeah, you bring the weirdness and I bring tragedy and strife.
- [21:02]
B
So that's also like a definition of our marriage, is it?
- [21:06]
A
I think the, I think the lawyer tamping down all the fun the journalists had in prison, in jail, rather, was more indicative of our marriage. I'm trying to do my little schemes, and then suddenly you're saying, no, no, no, don't do it, Anya.
- [21:25]
B
I'm gonna.
- [21:25]
A
Say this, I'm gonna say this. I'm gonna call you out. This annoys me so much. Kevin. I always know he's. You're like, I. Okay. I think your dreams, like, they don't mean anything, but they say how you think about people. Every time Kevin has a dream about me, I'm doing something extremely annoying that he's like, aghast about. And he wakes and he wakes up and he's like, oh, I was kind of annoyed at you, even though it didn't happen. And it's like, that's how you think. Like, you always think I'm doing some crazy scheme. And then you were like, oh, I have to fix this. And it didn't even happen, so.
- [22:00]
B
And of course, in your dreams, I'm always a heroic figure.
- [22:03]
A
Yes.
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B
Very noble, very impressive. Romantic.
- [22:09]
A
Yeah.
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B
Yeah.
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A
So that's great. We're very. Every time, oh, I had a dream, I'm like, oh, Jesus Christ, what is it now? All right, so let's go on to Arkansas.
- [22:22]
B
Let's go to Arkansas. And my source for this story is CNN.com and it's another. You mentioned at the top of the program. You spoil the surprise by saying, I have a kind of a theme. And the theme is both of these stories in some way involve current or former candidates for office. And this is the story of a man named Aaron Spencer. His daughter was being sexually abused in some fashion by a man named Michael Fossler. He was facing plenty of charges for his. What he was doing to Mr. Spencer's daughter, including sexual assault, Internet stalking of a child. He. He's out on bonzo. So he's a free man. But there is a no contact order on him where he is prohibited from contacting Mr. Spencer's daughter. As occasionally happens, this person, Mr. Fossler, disregards that order. And so he is in a vehicle with Mr. Spencer's daughter, who I should mention is 13 years old. And Mr. Spencer becomes aware of this and he is understandably concerned for a couple of reasons. First of which, one thing that comes into your mind is this person might sexually assault my daughter again.
- [23:51]
A
Yeah.
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B
And Another thing is Mr. Fossler is facing some very serious charges, and a crucial witness for those charges is this 13 year old girl. Could it be possible that he's going to eliminate her in an effort to improve his situation.
- [24:09]
A
Those seem like valid concerns to me.
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B
So Mr. Spencer jumps in his truck. He drives all around the roads around his house looking for Mr. Fossler. He spots him. He forces his car off the road. There is a confrontation that concludes with Spencer shooting the person who has abused his daughter, and he dies. And so Mr. Spencer is now facing murder charges, and there is going to be a trial on those charges, which has not yet happened. But the bit of a Twist is that Mr. Spencer has now announced that he is going to run for sheriff of this county. He says, one of the reasons I want to run for sheriff is the system failed my daughter. I want to make sure it doesn't fail other people's children. So. Well, first of all, how do you feel about a person facing murder charges running for sheriff? Anya?
- [25:19]
A
Not great about that. I mean, just as a principle. Not great, I think. Okay, here's the thing.
- [25:29]
B
I.
- [25:29]
A
It sounds like the system did fail this man's daughter, but I don't know if it was the sheriff necessarily so much as, like, this guy.
- [25:37]
B
Sheriff. Sheriff started to say he wasn't gonna run for reelection.
- [25:39]
A
No, I'm not saying that. I'm just saying, like, the bo. Like, you know, the fact that this creep got bond and then was still contacting her. I mean, yeah, I guess that's. I guess I'm just like, I. I feel. I feel bad for the Spencer family. I don't know if that makes some. I don't know if this situation makes someone, like, qualified to be sheriff, though.
- [25:58]
B
Yeah. There's a defense attorney quoted in the CNN piece basically saying, if it was my client, I wouldn't allow him to run for sheriff. That would raise all sorts of possible complications during a trial. What would cross examination be like? There's also the factor that if. If Mr. Spencer ends up being convicted. Convicted of the murder, he would be ineligible to serve.
- [26:24]
A
How did this creep. I mean, this Michael Fossler creep know this family? Like, why. Like, how was he able to get the daughter out? I mean, we. I'm sure we don't know that. I'm just. It's more of, like. That's really bizarre. It. It sounds like she was really groomed or something.
- [26:38]
B
Yeah.
- [26:38]
A
Where she was, you know, I'm assuming he didn't forcibly abduct her from the family home. I'm assuming she went out to meet him. So I'm just, you know, that. That would be an interesting thing to know. Here's the thing. I guess here's how I feel. I don't blame this guy for killing this guy. I just don't. I mean, like, what, what he was doing. I don't think that's right because I don't believe in vigilante justice. But do I, like, think a parent in a situation where you have your teenage daughter in the car with someone who has been doing this to them, who stalked them, who's, you know, subverting the, you know, ignoring the order not to contact them, and this possibly, as you said, could have been a dangerous situation. I don't, I don't blame him as a human being. I think a lot of people would want to do that. So I feel personally, maybe a deal should be worked out here. Maybe. Maybe murder, maybe a murder charge is a little bit much given the circumstances. I, again, I'm not a lawyer, but that's, that's how I feel. So I don't really necessarily hold anything against this guy for doing this.
- [27:46]
B
He's facing second degree murder with a gun enhancement penalty.
- [27:49]
A
Yeah.
- [27:50]
B
Do you, do you think that him running for sheriff is an attempt on his part to taint the jury pool?
- [27:56]
A
Probably. I mean, I don't know if that's knowingly. But I've seen headlines about this. You know, I didn't read them, but I've seen headlines. But it's getting a lot of national attention and it's making a lot of people. When I see people commenting on it, a lot of people, again, I think a lot of people would be in this boat, they'd say, I do the same thing or give that man a medal. So it's, it's certainly. He's very sympathetic. He's very sympathetic in that sense. Had this been a situation where they're pending trial and he hunts this guy down and just executes him, that would be less sympathetic because it's like, let the law work. But in this case, you can understand his point of view that the law wasn't working because this predator is still preying on his kid and manages to get his kid before there's even a trial. So, you know, again, I'm not saying his reaction is right. I don't. I really, truly do not believe in vigilante justice. I think it's wrong. And I think vigilante justice is a surefire way to a less civilized society. And that's not what we want. It's. Vigilante justice is like one of those things. Like that sounds great, but it's not actually good for you. It's like, you know what I mean? Like, when people start, oh, yeah, let's kill these people. They're awful. Or this person did this awful thing. Yeah, we're just gonna kill them. You know that. That's how we go back to the days of, like, lynch mobs. And guess what? That was a horrifying situation. That's not what we should be doing. I don't support it just in this instance. I think you can definitely understand why someone would do what they did, what he did here. I mean, where do you stand on it as, you know, as far as, like, what he did versus anything else?
- [29:34]
B
Well, first, I agree with the defense attorney quoted in the article, a man named John Wesley hall, who says this is a bad idea to run for sheriff. To run for sheriff while you're facing murder charges.
- [29:47]
A
It doesn't qualify you to be a sheriff. And if anything, it would make me concerned about, you know, the rights of defendants and that.
- [29:55]
B
Yeah, yeah, that's a good point. If a person's known for stepping outside the law to get vigilante justice, is that the then person that we want to pin a badge on?
- [30:07]
A
No, because what if someone gets arrested for being accused of something? I mean, like, is something going to happen to them? Is this. Are these deputies or sheriff going to step aside if someone comes to vigilante justice them? I mean, like, again, it's. That's why I say I, I kind of. I'm trying to separate the two issues of what he did and then what he's doing now. Is it just. Is it just kind of a. I. I don't want to say publicity stunt in the sense that he's just doing it for publicity. More. More so like a jury tainting exercise of, like, who can convict me now that you know my story?
- [30:41]
B
If he and his attorneys are able to convince a local jury to acquit him, as they might, because. Because a lot of people, maybe most people who look at this feel a lot of sympathy for a father in this situation. If he is acquitted, obviously no problem with him running for sheriff while he's actually facing the charges. That just raises some concern with me.
- [31:06]
A
Do you think that, what do you think of what he actually did, though, in terms of shooting a guy in those circumstances?
- [31:15]
B
It's an understandable human thing.
- [31:18]
A
Do you think murder charges are harsh in this situation? Do you think, like, a prosecutor would be. Would do better to just try to negotiate a deal, negotiate a lesser sentence? That's what I would think would be appropriate for a situation where someone's Not a criminal, not a habitual offender, and did something that's not good, but understandable.
- [31:40]
B
Yeah. Obviously he needs to face some sort of consequences still. Even though we are all very, very sympathetic to him. Because you don't want to have a situation where you are quietly encouraging or looking the other way when people do things like this. Because eventually you will get to a situation where a person is accused of something heinous and is innocent, and then, then someone takes their life and people.
- [32:11]
A
Will just continue to feel more and more emboldened to do whatever. Even when there's more hazy circumstances than this. This is a situation where there needs to be consequences. I agree. A man lost his life, that man may have been a predator. But there's a way to do things, and taking the law into your own hands is not it. But at the same time, given the kind of possible danger to his daughter in this situation, I do feel like some kind of lesser sentence negotiated would be appropriate. Even something that doesn't lead to prison time, perhaps supervised release or something like that. I don't know. I. I just. It's obviously very tragic what happened to this young girl, what happened to this family. But I agree with you. I'm uncomfortable, I guess also, I just feel like a sheriff should be qualified to be a sheriff. Like, if I come in and I shoot someone and become a cause celebrity, like, I don't know how to run a sheriff's office. I wouldn't know what to do. Like, everyone could be like, Anya was so justified. She's so cool for doing that. Yay. And I like, rise to power. And then I'm in the sheriff's office and I have no idea. Like, you know, what, what are these paperwork? I, I don't, I don't know. It just seems kind of like if you're not qualified, you're not qualified. It's not, it's not about, like, doing one cool thing that people like, which in this case is killing a pedophile.
- [33:28]
B
You'd be a pretty good sheriff.
- [33:30]
A
I wouldn't.
- [33:31]
B
You know, sheriffs often wear hats.
- [33:32]
A
I'm not gonna wear a hat. I'm not a sheriff. I'm saying that, like, you and I wouldn't know how to run a sheriff's office. And, you know, I, I don't. Being involved in this high profile situation doesn't really qualify. This guy.
- [33:46]
B
Wasn't there a Suzanne Summers comedy called she's the Sheriff? I don't know. That could be you.
- [33:50]
A
Why would. I don't know.
- [33:51]
B
But, but I, I I think we're done with this topic because we, I, I'm on the verge of talking about an old sitcom. So why don't you do your rapid fire because you have like what, 10 more cases?
- [34:02]
A
I have about 15 more cases. So this is an update on a case that we covered out of Missouri and we had a story about a jury foreman coming in and giving other jurors his self published novel which was like a revenge story about a drunk driving incident.
- [34:18]
B
I remember that, yeah.
- [34:20]
A
Supreme Court weighed in and so this is actually the murder of Missouri State Highway Patrol Sergeant Carl Duane Graham Jr. And his murderer. Lance Shockley, 48 years old, was just lethally injected at the state prison in Bonterra, Missouri. Graham was murdered on March 20, 2025. But the incident sort of dates back to November 26, 2024, when Lance Shockley and his sister's in law, sister in law's fiance, slash his best friend Jeffrey Bayless were driving around in Bayless's truck. They got into an accident near Van Buren, Missouri and Bayless died. Shockley fled the scene leaving behind beer cans, a tequila bottle. Sergeant Graham was tasked, who was 37 years old, was tasked with investigating this and was, was piecing together invol a case for involuntary manslaughter. And he was a 12 year veteran of the Missouri Highway Patrol. He had a four year old son, but he was ambushed at his home and shot with a rifle. His spinal cord was severed, he fell to the ground and then Shockley approached him and shot him in the face and shoulder, killing him. So this man Shockley was, so he was killing a police officer in order to cover up his crime. So going from involuntary manslaughter to like murdering a police officer. So he, he was convicted and there's been a lot of, you know, consternation because the self published novel thing and you know, the defense in this case and his post conviction relief team have always said, well it's a circumstantial case. There's no DNA. Why the hell would there be DNA? Like, like this is like, I mean this is a case where he sniped someone essentially and shot them with a gun. It's not like a rape murder. So they're, they're circumstantial cases become like a bad word in true crime. I think that's stupid. A lot of very good cases are circumstantial. In this case, the guy's car borrowed from his grandmother, a red Pontiac Grand Am, a pretty distinctive looking car was seen near the victim's house at the time of the murder. They found bullet fragments that match fragments on Shockley's uncle's property. They he had a motive and he then asked his grandmother to provide an alibi for him for no reason. He also owned a the same caliber rifle. So, I mean, I don't know. They never found the murder weapon. I'm okay with a circumstantial case. It seems like a pretty good one. You know, they kept on asking, look, let's do DNA. Which was a stalling tactic to get him not executed, but they executed him anyway. And this is what Graham's family had to say. Quote, Today has brought our family a measure of finality that we've been waiting for since March 20, 2005, when we lost Dwayne in the most senseless and devastating way imaginable. And the grip of losing Dwayne has left a profound emptiness in all of us that touches every part of our daily lives. No court proceeding nor what happened here today can ever bring Dwayne back or heal the hole left in our hearts. But after all of these years, there is some measure of peace knowing that this part of the process is over. End quote. And then Colonel Michael Turner, the superintendent of the Missouri State Highway Patrol said, quote, Since 1931, the patrol has lost 31 officers in line of duty. Tonight marks the end of a 20 years long chapter for Duane's family, friends and fellow troopers. Loss of Duane is a profound reminder of the dangers that every trooper and law enforcement officer accepts when they put on this uniform. It's also a terrible reminder of the sacrifices that too many families are forced to bear. Sergeant Carl Dwayne Graham Jr. Badge 223 will forever be a part of the patrol's history. End quote. So Shockley's dead and, and that was kind of the finality of that case that we previously covered. Let's talk about this Mississippi case. Mississippi case. Another lethal injection that just happened. There just seemed to be a lot of executions going on. Right, Right. My source for this one is cnn. Oh, and Associated Press was my source for the previous one. So Charles Ray Crawford, 59 years old, was executed at the Miss Mississippi State Penitentiary in Parchment, Mississippi on Wednesday, October 15, 2025. And he was executed lethally injected over the murder of 20 year old Christy Ray, who was murdered by him in 1993. Christy Denise Wright, she was an only child. Cases where parents lose their only child really mess me up for some reason. She was attending Northeast Mississippi Community College. She wanted to attend MSU or Mississippi State university. And she had a boyfriend. They were together for three years. She worked at a bank where her mom worked. And she and her mother, on January 29, 1993, left the bank. They were gonna see each other at home. And she also had a date with her boyfriend. But when her mom called her at home, Christy did not answer. Her mom gets home, she finds Kristy's car is gone. She finds a handwritten ransom note for Christy. And they, they contact police. They find force entry. The screen of her bedroom window was cut. They find it in disarray. And ultimately there's a. In a different house, in, in Crawford's family's house, there are. There's a ransom note made from magazine cutouts for a woman named Jennifer found in the attic of his former father in law. And the father in law does the right thing and contacts police. And police track down Crawford. He is coming back from what he claims was a hunting trip. And he denies any involvement at first in Christy's disappearance, but ultimately he claims, well, I don't remember anything because I was blacking out. But he leads police to her body in heavily wooded area near an abandoned barn. And they. He's convicted of kidnapping, raping and murdering her. So at the same time, he had been on trial at that time for raping a 17 year old girl and hitting her friend with a hammer. So it's like he did this twice. He's convicted on both of those situations. Now this, you got the death penalty. And then it came to the Supreme Court, as it, as it sometimes does, the issue here and what he wanted was an emergency appeal. He was denied this. And this was a last minute thing. Justice Sonia Sotomayor wrote the dissent. And what this came down to was Crawford's attorneys basically conceded that Crawford killed Ray, that he killed Christie. They wanted to do an insanity defense. Now, when you look at the circumstances here, his lawyers were correct because he led police to the body. But Crawford, brilliant legal mind that he was, obviously didn't want to do this and, and apparently didn't want to do this. And so he felt like these lawyers had just done something he didn't want to do, even though he didn't want to do it. And the rule, I take it, is that you got to do what your client wants.
- [41:38]
B
Exactly.
- [41:38]
A
Even if your client's a stupid rapist asshole. So, you know, so basically what Sotomayor wrote was, quote, Crawford's lawyers did not listen, not because they misunderstood Crawford, but because they chose not to. End quote. Well, boohoo. But on the Legal side, you can understand why that would be an issue. On the human side, whatever.
- [42:05]
B
I mean, wouldn't you be upset if you hired an attorney to represent you in one of the many criminal actions against you for your behavior involving stealing cereal and you tell the attorney here is the perfect strategy to use and you feel confident that strategy would result in your acquittal and then your attorney says, okay, Anya, that makes sense. And then he goes into court and does something completely different and you end up getting convicted. I think you'd be pretty upset.
- [42:36]
A
Happens to me all the time. What are you talking about?
- [42:39]
B
You have a long criminal record that people aren't aware of.
- [42:42]
A
Here's the thing. I, I'm saying I, when I'm talking about these true crime cases, I, I have my cerebral, you know, erudite journalist hat on of like, what is the law. And, and in that case, I can totally understand where they're coming from with this. Right? And then I have my bloodthirsty woman of the people who thinks about what this 20 year old woman must have felt like as she was led away and forced away from her home, abducted, raped and murdered in the woods by some lunatic who wanted to go around raping women. And I think, boohoo. Like, you know, like, oh man, that's so horrible. Anyways, so, yeah, anyway, that's. Those are the two sides of me. There's two Anyas conflicted about true crime, and usually the cerebral Anya wins out, but in this case it's like, okay.
- [43:37]
B
Yeah, usually you do make a point of wearing your erudite journalist hat.
- [43:42]
A
My journalist hats? Once the hat's off, though, we don't know what's gonna happen.
- [43:46]
B
Yeah, Anya has a closet full of carefully labeled hats.
- [43:50]
A
I think it's a thing where a lot of us are probably in this position. You read about these horrible crimes and you're just so disgusted with these people who are basically lower than animals who do stuff like this and you just sort of think, whatever. But I do think it's fair to say that we have to still wear our cerebral hats so that we can better understand the law and better understand how we protect all of our rights. Because it's not just about the rights of murderers and people who do terrible things. It's about protecting everyone's rights. So I can definitely see Justice Sotomayor's reasoning here and saying, well, hey, this just applies to everything. We can't. It's not really about his case. It's so more, more of like, how are people being treated in the criminal justice system. Innocent, guilty. Otherwise, how could we be treated if we found ourselves in this situation? So I understand that and I respect that. I'm just saying in this case, you know, I don't care that this guy got executed. You know, he was a bad person. So those are the two hats.
- [44:51]
B
You're just trying to confuse me by all this hat talk because I'm just dazzled with the idea of it.
- [44:55]
A
Yeah, you're just getting excited about that.
- [44:59]
B
I'd love to live in a world where, like, we were frequently having to stop recording while you go and change hats. Like, here's my witty hat.
- [45:06]
A
Here's my every diepad, double production time for every episode. Just because, like, this thousand hats.
- [45:14]
B
Wouldn't that be a wonderful world that would improve everyone's life? And then your hat changing, I bet that would go viral on YouTube or TikTok.
- [45:24]
A
How would it go? No one would see the hats.
- [45:27]
B
If you started changing hats on the show, I would make sure it would be recorded on video. I'd share it with the world.
- [45:35]
A
And most people who don't listen frequently would just be baffled and be like, what's wrong with these people?
- [45:40]
B
So nothing would change.
- [45:44]
A
I got one more execution case to zip through. This is in Indiana. Again, so many executions this week. It really seems like a lot of states are executing a lot of people, and people can feel different ways about that. Some people are probably thinking good and other people are probably thinking, that's not good. And I'm not even weighing in. I'm just saying it's happening a lot. And one of my sources for this was the Indiana Capital Chronicle. Yes, we're going back to our home base of Indiana.
- [46:12]
B
Going home to relax and not really relax.
- [46:14]
A
This is a terrible case. And I just want to warn everyone in advance. Skip ahead a couple of minutes. There's some very graphic details here, though. I will read. This is the murder of Stacy Payne by Roy Lee Ward. Roy Lee Ward was executed by lethal injection on October 10, 2025. He murdered Stacy Payne in Dale, Indiana, in July 11, 2001. She was 15 years old. He was convicted twice in 2002. And then his. The Indiana Supreme Court overturned his conviction. And then again in 2007. And then in 2022, I guess he pled guilty to rape and murder. So clemency. He was. He was set for execution. The clemency board rejected his application, his appeal. Indiana Governor Mike Braun declined to do any sort of clemency, and he was executed in Michigan City. So what happened to Stacy is truly horrible. And again, these are pretty upsetting details. Ward knocked on her family's door. Dale, Indiana, is not too far away from Santa Claus Indiana. And it's, it's very rural. Her house was like surrounded by cornfields. Stacy and her younger sister Melissa were inside. He told Stacey that he was looking for a lost dog and she let him. He either forced his way in or she let him in and he starts attacking Stacy. Her sister heard this attack. She had been napping upstairs. Quote from the top of the stairs. Melissa saw a man on top of Stacy. While Stacy screamed and pleaded for the man to stop, Melissa ran to her parents bedrooms and call bedroom and called 91 1, end quote. And the, the first officer on the scene was Dale Town Marshal Matt Keller. So Keller finds Ward in the doorway of the home holding a knife. He gets him on the ground and handcuffs him. And he finds inside the house in the kitchen. Stacy is lying in a pool of blood. She's conscious, she's naked from the waist down. And she's essentially been. Her intestines are exposed. Like he, he horrifically injured her. He bound her, he beat her with a dumbbell. He. He cut her very badly. He. Keller told Stacy he was a police officer and that she was safe and the people were coming to help her. She could not talk. Keller said she seemed to relax a bit. A paramedic named Jane Stout, who responded, said Stacey had tears in her eyes as she struggled to breathe. Had never seen anything that brutal before. And they were, they, they rushed Stacy to the hospital. The injuries to her abdomen, it lacerated her spine. Her trachea was lacerated. Just extensive injuries. A helicopter flew her out to the University of Louisville Hospital, but she died five hours after the attack. And she also had these 18 blunt force injuries. Just a horrific thing to happen to this, you know, young girl. And people like Stout and Keller testified before the clemency board, I think, or just in, in terms of this whole process. They said he's pure evil and he deserves no mercy. And you know, his, his team argued, his, his defense team argued that he is not a psychopath, that he, he feels regrets, but that he has. He's been recently diagnosed with Autism Spectrum disorder. And so he has social difficulties because of that. So he seems like a psychopath just because he, he's, he's different because of the autism. And it gave jurors the wrong impression of him. So that's a pretty weak argument, in my opinion. Yeah, I'm.
- [50:23]
B
It's similar to some things that were raised in the Idaho case, I mean.
- [50:28]
A
We'Ve had conversations with autistic people about this and with people who study this. And I think there's a fair discussion to be had about how autism spectrum disorder can impact how a jury views a defendant. I think that's something we should be aware of. That's something that we shouldn't necessarily judge someone for, say, not maintaining eye contact, because that could be a symptom of autism. Someone can't help that. But to equate some of this with autism, I think is just frankly insulting to people with autism. You know, I'm not talking about the lack of eye contact. I'm talking about, like, the disemboweling a teenager and raping her. You know, I. I guess at some point, it's like, whatever. It just seems like everyone's just trying to jump onto a bandwagon to, you know, that I. I don't. I don't think. I don't find it compelling at all. But, yeah, he was executed. And what a horrific thing that this person did and devastation for this family and for that community. And I saw a lot of things about this case kind of pop up, and people were just sort of saying, you know, good, this is finally over for them and this person is no longer with us. And what her family testified to and some of this back and forth was essentially like, if he gets clemency, it just shows that her life didn't mean anything. Like, it, like, just like, no consequence to doing something so horrible. So that that is what they wanted, and that is what happened. So my last case is in Texas, and in this one, I picked one where no one died. And this was a listener recommendation. We did some heavy ones about executions and people getting murdered. So I wanted to do one that was less heavy. And in Texas, in Sweetwater, Texas, my. I. I got a press release from the Sweetwater Police Department and an article from big country. And so it starts off ominously on Monday, September 22, 2025. Some kind of door delivery driver. It was reported as doordash, but police later clarified that it wasn't doordash. This delivery driver gets an order. He gets an order for something that I think, like, would concern some people. Let's talk about what was in this moment.
- [52:48]
B
What's the order?
- [52:51]
A
A hatchet, trash bags, zip ties, and bleach.
- [52:59]
B
That's pretty concerning.
- [53:01]
A
That doesn't sound good. But what's worse is where it's going to a motel. It's going to a motel on the 700 block of Southwest Georgia Avenue. So he's like, okay, that's not. That doesn't sound good. So he tips off, I think police and, and, and hotel man and motel management. And what happens is, you know, officers arrive on the scene and they find out that a 42 year old man named Neil Cooper has barricaded himself inside this motel room and there appears to be some kind of hostage. Not really sure what exactly is going on with that hostage, is not clear from the reporting. Not sure if they're like being held against their will or if it's a possible hostage or this, you know, what's going on. But officers start contacting him. He says he's armed, he says he's not gonna leave the motel room. And while they're doing this, the person who might have been a hostage or whatever is going on sneaks out of the motel room so there's no more possible hostage. The Texas Department of Public Safety sends in a crisis negotiator who is ultimately able to get a peaceful surrender. That's exactly what you want in these situations. You don't want anyone to die. You don't want the hostages to die, you don't want the hostage taker to die, you don't want any of the first responders to die. You just want everyone to just not shoot it out. So that's a very successful situation where nobody dies. So Cooper is extracted safely, he surrenders, and he was charged with aggravated kidnapping. 2. And then there was warrants for him for manufacturing delivery of a controlled substance from the Snyder, Texas police department. And then the hostage, this is mysterious. They were charged too with failure to identify and one active manufactured delivery of a controlled substance penalty group. One warrant, also from Snyder. So it seems like there was some drug thing going on here, but yeah, that's what happened. I'm glad no one died. And kudos to that delivery driver for kind of looking out for something. I feel like it's possible that guy prevented a murder.
- [55:21]
B
So the rare case with a happy ending on a cheat sheet.
- [55:24]
A
Yeah, no one died, no one was harmed. I guess this guy may have wasted some money on murder tools, but maybe he wasn't gonna murder him. Maybe he was just gonna like clean up the motel room and pick up his trash and then zip tie some garbage bags together. I don't even know, but he.
- [55:42]
B
Either way, the rare happy ending.
- [55:44]
A
The rare happy ending, yes. So that was. That was it for my rapid fire cases, yes.
- [55:50]
B
So you, you now it's time. Before we move on to, there's gonna be Promotional announcements followed by a story. Before you get into the heart and the meat of the promotional announcements, which you regard as your ballywick. That's you're part of the show. You're very proud of that, very protective of that.
- [56:08]
A
No, I'm not.
- [56:09]
B
Before we get to that, we've had a lot of fun talking and meeting people all over.
- [56:14]
A
We really have. It's been amazing. And just getting to meet some of you folks, it's just been a delight.
- [56:20]
B
And there was a moment the other day we were talking to a great book club of people in the great town of Sullivan, Indiana, where you said something that made me realize something. You mentioned that our first episode went live back in November of 2020. So correct me if I'm wrong. Correct me if there's a flaw in my math, because I'm no mathematician. But doesn't that mean that next month is the fifth anniversary of this program?
- [56:54]
A
I guess so, yeah.
- [56:55]
B
Should we, like, do something like have an anniversary program or what should we do?
- [57:01]
A
Looking back on the murder sheet over.
- [57:03]
B
The years, and also I looked it up. The fifth anniversary is the wood anniversary. Should we, like, give each other sticks?
- [57:10]
A
The wood anniversary.
- [57:13]
B
So what should we do?
- [57:15]
A
The Taylor Swift song.
- [57:16]
B
I think something must be done. I don't know what it is, but I'm pounding the desk.
- [57:21]
A
Stop pounding the desk. What are you doing?
- [57:23]
B
Well, I'm making clear something must be done.
- [57:28]
A
I don't even know if those desk pounding sounds are even going to be in the show. I don't know if they might be edited out, so people might. Okay, so.
- [57:34]
B
But with me pounding on the. Just. Just. If the sound of me pounding the desk got edited out, please know it was thunderous because. Because I am a very powerful man.
- [57:45]
A
Wow, you really are just losing it.
- [57:47]
B
So I'm very strong.
- [57:49]
A
Okay. You tell yourself that. So they. If anyone has any suggestions on what we should do, I guess let us know.
- [57:57]
B
I had all sorts of plans that you didn't like for our 500th episode last year, but then it turned out the 500th episode came during the trial, so we couldn't do anything.
- [58:07]
A
I didn't dislike them. It's just more of like, does anyone care?
- [58:11]
B
Well, I'll remind you after we finish recording and you say, oh, yeah, I did dislike that.
- [58:17]
A
Okay, fair.
- [58:18]
B
And I'm not even saying you're wrong to dislike it. I'm not. I'm not complaining.
- [58:21]
A
Yeah, I may have saved us.
- [58:23]
B
We may have dodged a bullet. So I'm not saying you're wrong.
- [58:28]
A
We're not re. Litigating this.
- [58:30]
B
Yeah, I'm not picking a fight.
- [58:32]
A
Oh, God. Well, I support doing something, but I don't know what to do. I'm. I'm. I would be curious about what people think for the Wood anniversary.
- [58:40]
B
That just the Wood anniversary sound.
- [58:42]
A
Right. Let's move on.
- [58:48]
B
Okay, now. Now I. I'll step back and let you do your part. Your. Your promotional announcements.
- [58:55]
A
Okay, my promotional announcements. So tomorrow, Saturday, Oct. 18, 2025, in Carmel, Indiana, we are gonna sign books at the Barnes and Noble in Carmel, Indiana. We're gonna be there from noon to 4pm Eastern Time. Noon to 4pm@ 4pm we're leaving. We're gonna go home. But before that, from noon until that time, we will be there. So come say hi to us and get your book signed. And get a book. And right now, you know, we're going into the holiday season. If you have any true crime lovers in your family, I think Shadow of the Bridge is a good gift for them because it will tell them all about a really important case that's near and dear to our hearts, the D.O. delphi murders case. And we've heard very good things from readers who liked it. So I think people will appreciate it.
- [59:45]
B
And correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't Carmel, Indiana where we're going tomorrow? Isn't it often regarded as one of the crown jewels of Indiana? Every once in a while. You see, these are the best places to live in the country. And Carmel is always listed. So if you want to not only see us, but to see what is widely regarded as a great place to live, come and see us at Carmel at the Barnes and Noble. A word of warning. A word of warning. Carmel's a great place.
- [60:13]
A
It's a wonderful place.
- [60:14]
B
It rightfully deserves its reputation as a crown jewel, I think. So they have a restaurant in a library.
- [60:21]
A
It's really cute. I like that restaurant.
- [60:22]
B
But be warned, for some reason, like, scattered all through town are like life size statues of like, pedestrians. So you like walking around. Out of the corner of your eye, you see like somebody holding a newspaper. And you go, excuse me, it's just a statue of a guy.
- [60:40]
A
I almost always apologize to that guy. And he's not real. He's a statue. Yeah, it's terrifying. You're constantly on alert. Like out of your peripheral vision, you're like, okay, there's someone approaching me, like my brain sending me signals, like, what's going on with that? And you look over and it's not a person. So yeah, that is a little bit scary.
- [60:58]
B
So I'm warning you. But other, it's still a crown jewel. It's not like an Athens of the prairie, but it's a crown jewel of the state. So I think you have some more promotional announcements.
- [61:10]
A
So in Sunday, Oct. 26, 2025, in Bloomington, Indiana, Bloomington being where Indiana University is located, Kevin's beloved Alma material, we are going to be participating in a true crime panel at the Bloomington book festival at 1pm so, as at the Bloomington Book Festival, this is Sunday, October 26th. It's going to be a really cool event and you can get your tickets for that event on our events page. So it's just murdersheetpodcast.com events and so just click on the place where it says get your tickets here. And after that, on November 1st, in Lafayette, Indiana, we're going to be signing books at the Barnes and Noble in Lafayette, Indiana from 1:00pm to 4:00pm and that's going to be super cool. And then Saturday, November 4th, in. Wait, that's not a Saturday. I'm lying now. Well, I need to update this website then. Whoops. Catching some errors here. On Tuesday, Nov. 4, 2025, in Zionsville, Indiana, we're going to be doing a talk and signing at the Curious squirrel bookshop from 6pm to 8pm and you can click go to our website and get more information and RSVP on on this website that I just mentioned. So I'm gonna go on there and change that because that is not a Saturday, that is in fact a Tuesday. So.
- [62:36]
B
And before you do that, remember to put on your copy editor hat.
- [62:39]
A
Yeah. Oh, I have a visor. I have a green bag.
- [62:42]
B
I'm not joking. You have lots of hats for everything you do.
- [62:45]
A
I don't. I don't. I don't do that. I don't.
- [62:47]
B
Well, maybe you should.
- [62:50]
A
Okay, so that's all of my promotional announcements. Now, did you have a story for us to regale us with to close out here?
- [62:57]
B
It's not going to be a regale, is it?
- [63:00]
A
Everyone's going to be regaled, Kevin. Everyone is so looking forward to this. And if it's not good, I think our listenership may drop. So this better be good.
- [63:09]
B
Well, you know, the story, it is not a good one.
- [63:11]
A
It's such a good story. I'm building everyone up.
- [63:14]
B
It's more of a. Of a scene, it's hilarious. More of an incident.
- [63:17]
A
It's actually really funny and I think about it a lot because it makes me kind of sad.
- [63:23]
B
So. So you laugh, then you find yourself wiping away.
- [63:26]
A
Yeah, exactly. I'm like, oh, poor Kevin. Kevin's always in awkward scenarios.
- [63:33]
B
I enjoy comic books. I used to go to a lot of comic book conventions. Have not been able to persuade you to go to a comic book convention.
- [63:43]
A
I told you, if you want to go to one, you can go to one. I'm not keeping you away from your comic book.
- [63:48]
B
No, I'm saying you haven't been to one.
- [63:50]
A
You haven't asked me to one, because you're embarrassed.
- [63:54]
B
No, I'm not embarrassed. So what I would do with a comic book. There's a wide variety of activities offered at a comic book adventure. I don't know if you've been to one. They have, like, panels with comic book creators. Often the people I'm most interested in seeing if those panels are dead.
- [64:19]
A
They just have their inanimate.
- [64:22]
B
So I don't go to a lot of the panel discussions. I didn't go to a lot of the panel discussions when I went to comic book conventions.
- [64:30]
A
You're, like, into the. Just for people who don't have this context. Kevin's really into very specific eras in comic books, like Silver Age Superman. That's his jam. He's not interested in what Superman's doing now because as far as he's concerned, the Silver Age Superman is where it's at.
- [64:46]
B
There's certainly some very talented people working in comic books today. Companies like Fantagraphics and also some people working in the mainstream. We enjoy Kelly Sue.
- [64:56]
A
Kelly Sue DeConnick. She's awesome. And everyone should check out her graphic novel or her series of. It's an amazing story. It's fml. True crime fans will love this because it's basically about a woman who's obsessed with crime. And we love it. And I love it. She also did a wonderful turn with Wonder Woman Historia that I think about a lot. And she's very talented and awesome.
- [65:16]
B
And not to keep it focused on her, but her husband is also a very talented writer. He did a Jimmy Olsen comic book that kind of was reminiscent of what I liked about the Silver Age. He's Matt Fraction, and I believe he's gonna be working on Batman soon. But generally, the people I wanna hear from are deceased and been deceased for a very long time. And then there's other events there. Like you often will see people walking around in outfits.
- [65:48]
A
Cosplay.
- [65:49]
B
Yes, I believe that's the technical term.
- [65:52]
A
What.
- [65:55]
B
We'Re like, oh, I like Star Wars. I'm going to dress up as a stormtrooper Or I like Star Wars. I'm going to dress up as like Princess Leia when she was a slave girl. Or I like this character. I'm gonna dress up as this character. And you see people walking around in these outfits, which again, I'm sure this is a surprise to all of you. I didn't do that. I didn't make costumes and then walk around dressed in them.
- [66:25]
A
Okay. I'm such a. You sound so defensive.
- [66:28]
B
Well, I'm such a self conscious person. We were talking about the confidence you would need to run for president. I, I think you would need confidence to like dress up as a character and walk around.
- [66:41]
A
Yeah, I don't have that confidence either. I, I agree with you. I mean, again, God bless everyone who enjoys doing that. I just, I would, I would feel too self conscious.
- [66:51]
B
I, I remember I was asked to participate. Well, before I knew you, Miss Came, I was asked to participate in a friend's wedding. And one of the things is everybody at the wedding is supposed to dress up as a comic book character. And I agonized over this because what character can I dress up as? That won't leave me feeling really awkward and embarrassed because I'd be walking around in this costume all day and I'm a very self conscious person. I really, really pondered over this.
- [67:29]
A
So what did you do?
- [67:30]
B
Which I finished my story. Oh, okay. I'll tell you, I'll tell you. So what I did was I got some surgical scrubs and then I got a little name tag and I printed doom on it.
- [67:42]
A
Dr. Doom.
- [67:43]
B
So technically I was dressed up as Dr. Doom.
- [67:48]
A
You're so funny.
- [67:49]
B
But what I would do at the big conventions was basically there's usually an area, usually the largest area of the convention, where dealers are selling old comic books. And I, and a friend I'd go to these conventions with, we'd be like looking for specific comic book issues we needed. And so one of these conventions, I'm doing that. And I should say, even now you would say I'm not what you'd call a svelte man. I'm not a thin man.
- [68:24]
A
You're the thin man. But you're my Nick Charles.
- [68:30]
B
Back then I was even heavier.
- [68:35]
A
You're a very handsome man. And you're the perfect size as always.
- [68:40]
B
So I'm looking with my friend through these old comic book boxes and a guy comes by with a camera and he says, can I take your picture? And I should say that a lot of these people who make outfits, they're stopped as they go through the convention because people want to take their picture. That's part of the process. And he says, that's a great costume. Can I take your picture? And of course, I'm not wearing a costume. I'm dressed as I always am, kind of sloppily and maybe quite a bit heavier than I am now and with my facial hair. And I say, what? And he says, I want your costume because that is an incredible Peter Jackson cosplay. And Peter Jackson is a director who at that time was kind of heavy and bearded. So he thought the whole thing. So that's the whole story.
- [69:33]
A
This guy's doing a bit. Did you take a picture with him.
- [69:36]
B
He really wanted, so, yeah, of course.
- [69:39]
A
Did you tell him I'm not pretending to be Peter Jackson?
- [69:41]
B
I did.
- [69:42]
A
And he was just like, I want.
- [69:43]
B
The picture anyway, because you look just like him.
- [69:48]
A
Well, I guess he got what he.
- [69:50]
B
Wanted and then it was just a coincidence. But after that, I didn't seem to go to as many comic book conventions.
- [69:55]
A
I have a question. How did your friend was with you react?
- [70:01]
B
My friend, who you've met, has a lot of great qualities, but he focuses like a laser on comic books. So he says, oh, you want me to take the picture? He takes the picture, and then he goes back to his browsing. And we never discussed the Internet.
- [70:17]
A
He didn't even realize it.
- [70:19]
B
I think like a year or so later. I said, like, do you remember that? He said, oh, yeah, that was something. But let's talk about who inked fantastic 4108.
- [70:28]
A
Oh, comic book people. That's fun. All right, well, that's a good story. I think you're. You're very adorable, and you always get into some weird. Like, if anyone's gonna have a weird interaction with somebody, it's gonna be Kevin. Like, we could. We could all go into the same building and then you'd be the one to have some kind of weird side quest or some weird interaction or some mistaken identity with a, you know, famous director or anything like that. That would be you. So. But yeah.
- [70:58]
B
So next week, are we going to continue these anecdotes after the promotion is.
- [71:03]
A
The thing is, there's the embarrassing truth. We're not that interesting. We don't got a. We don't have a lot going on. So I feel like I'm. I'm. I'm running low.
- [71:13]
B
People loved. I think of all the stories you've told, people loved. Last week's the best. So you still got some good ones.
- [71:19]
A
But the problem is, like, I don't want to sound like, like I, like some of mine. It might be like, oh, that's funny. Oh, that's also kind of sad. Like, I don't want to. We don't need to get too. I mean, I don't know. We'll. We'll see. I'll try to scrounge around in my bag of anecdotes and see what else is in there.
- [71:35]
B
You have to put on your special storyteller hat.
- [71:37]
A
No, I don't need the hats. What is with your obsession with hats? I don't, I don't understand. I'm self conscious too. I don't want to be walking around in a dumb hat and have people make fun of me afterwards. That's what I imagined they would be doing. I can't, you know? Like, all I think about is that I remember I grew up watching the very problematic show Dance Moms. And at one point, one of the moms was yelling at one of the other dance moms. She's wearing this big cowboy hat. The other dance mom's like, I can't take you seriously in that. That's all I think that voice is in my head whenever I wear a hat.
- [72:09]
B
You have to escape the Dance Mom.
- [72:11]
A
No, I can't.
- [72:13]
B
They rule your life. All of your decisions are based on what was a Dance mom thing.
- [72:18]
A
Definitely not true. It's. But, but that the hat thing was a. Was a fair point and I definitely. That is haunting me. Gosh. Anyways, let's, let's, let's get out of here. This is.
- [72:29]
B
All right.
- [72:29]
A
Goodbye everybody.
- [72:31]
B
Thanks so much for listening to the Murder Sheet. If you have a tip concerning one of the cases we cover, please email us@murdersheetmail.com if you have actionable information about an unsolved crime, please report it to the appropriate authorities.
- [72:51]
A
If you're interested in joining our Patreon, that's available at www.patreon.com/murder sheet. If you want to tip us a bit of money for records requests, you can do so at www. Buymeacoffee.com murdersheet. We very much appreciate any support.
- [73:14]
B
Special thanks to Kevin Tyler Greenlee, who composed the music for the Murder Sheet and who you can find on the web@kevintg.com if you're looking to talk with.
- [73:26]
A
Other listeners about a case we've covered, you can join the Murder Sheet discussion group on Facebook. We mostly focus our time on research and reporting, so we're not on social media much. We do try to check our email account but we ask for patience as we often receive a lot of messages. Thanks again for listening. Hey, this is Sarah. Look, I'm standing out front of AM PM right now and well, you're sweet and all, but I found something more fulfilling, even kind of cheesy. But I like it. Sure, you met some of my dietary needs, but they've just got it all. So farewell oatmeal. So long, you strange soggy.
- [74:06]
B
Break up with bland breakfasts and taste AM PMs bacon, egg and cheese biscuit made with K tree eggs, smoked bacon and melty cheese on a buttery biscuit. AM PM Too much good stuff.