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- [00:00]
Anya Cain
It's fall. The air's crisp. The sky's darker in the evening. The holidays are drawing closer. Time to bundle up and get cozy with the latest sweaters, outerwear and essential layers from Quint's.
- [00:11]
Kevin Greenlee
We love our sponsor Quint's. We shop there all the time. We love getting luxury goods for less. Quint's has prices that are 50% less than similar brands because they cut out the middleman to get you quality items at a reasonable price. Washable silk tops and skirts, Italian wool coats and and of course their signature Mongolian cashmere sweaters.
- [00:34]
Anya Cain
As the temperatures drop, I'm once again returning to my favorites. My black V neck sweater and a dark blue turtleneck sweater, both in Mongolian cashmere. I just love wearing them. I love how they feel. But I'm also mixing things up with two new purchases. One is my Mongolian cashmere fisherman crewneck sweater in ivory. It's so cozy and soft. And the other is a black 100% washable silk long sleeve mini dress. That's for the holidays when I'm feeling fancy.
- [00:59]
Kevin Greenlee
I love my two new quince sweaters too. They're warm and they keep me comfortable against the autumn chill. Check them out. Also, Anya has a delightful blue beret that I love and she's begun to wear.
- [01:11]
Anya Cain
I love that beret. Step into the holiday season with layers made to feel good, look polished and last from Quince. Perfect for gifting or keeping for yourself. Go to quince.com msheet for free shipping on your order and 365 day returns. Now available in Canada too. That's Q-U-I-N c e.com msheet to get free shipping and 365 day returns. Quinns.com msheet Parlez tout hablas espanol Parle Italiano. If you've used Babbel, you would Babbel's Conversation Based Techniques teaches you useful words and phrases to get you speaking quickly about the things you actually talk about in the real world. With lessons handcrafted by over 200 language experts and voiced by real native speakers, Babbel is like having a private tutor in your pocket. Start speaking with Babbel today. Get up to 55% off your Babbel subscription right now at babbel.com wandery spelled B-A B-B-E-L.com wandery rules and restrictions may apply. Did you know that parents rank financial literacy as the number one most difficult life skill to teach? Meet greenlight the debit card and money app for families with greenlight. You can send money to kids quickly, set up chores automate allowance, and keep an eye on your kids spending. With real time notifications, kids learn to earn, save and spend wisely. And parents can rest easy knowing their kids are learning about money. With guardrails in place, try Greenlight Risk free today@greenlight.com Wondery hi, I'm Anya. Today we're going to be talking about a death penalty possibly being applied to a local Indiana case, as well as a break in a cold case homicide, and two stories about how disturbing online activities can result in real world actions in pretty horrifying ways. Content warning this episode includes discussion of suicide as well as murder and violence. Today on the Cheat Sheet, we're going to be going to my old haunt of New York as well as my new haunt of Indiana and Washington and Oklahoma, two places I've never been except on a layover in Seattle once.
- [03:29]
Kevin Greenlee
Right?
- [03:30]
Anya Cain
So that's what you're called, the raconteur. My relation to all the states that we're talking about today.
- [03:35]
Kevin Greenlee
Happy Black Friday, everybody.
- [03:39]
Anya Cain
Wishing people a happy Black Friday.
- [03:41]
Kevin Greenlee
Isn't it a day everybody really enjoys? I remember back in your retail reporter days, you'd have to, you say, kevin, this is the biggest day of the year and you'd have to be in front of your computer doing all sorts of reporting.
- [03:52]
Anya Cain
And I didn't really enjoy that because at work. But, but no, it is. I mean, I mean Black Friday has been sort of dethroned, I think in the e commerce environment along for a long time. We were like, kind of like, oh, is Black Friday dead? We'd read a lot of articles about that. I don't think it's dead per se, is that it's just not as important.
- [04:14]
Kevin Greenlee
If it said if it is dead, was it murdered? And if so, should we cover it? But also, Anya, I'm curious.
- [04:23]
Anya Cain
What was, what was we all murdered?
- [04:24]
Kevin Greenlee
Black Friday, what was your favorite part of Thanksgiving yesterday?
- [04:27]
Anya Cain
I don't know. It hasn't happened yet. We're recording this on November 19th because we're trying to get ahead of things so we can enjoy Thanksgiving.
- [04:35]
Kevin Greenlee
So this means, I'm sure, I'm sure we've probably been inundated with suggestions for a murder sheet motto.
- [04:44]
Anya Cain
We don't know what they are yet.
- [04:46]
Kevin Greenlee
But if you're wondering why on earth aren't they talking about the issues of the day, namely the motto? The motto is, because we are recording this episode literally minutes after we recorded last week's episode yeah.
- [05:00]
Anya Cain
Yeah. Minutes.
- [05:01]
Kevin Greenlee
Do you want to make predictions about what your favorite part of Thanksgiving was? The good fellowship and wonderful meal.
- [05:08]
Anya Cain
I think that's it. Seeing beloved family members, seeing, you know, just the joy of the holidays. I'm sure Lanny will get some treats.
- [05:21]
Kevin Greenlee
If you want to know what it's like to be with me on a Thanksgiving family event, just download a track of silence, because I'm not really good in groups. I just don't talk.
- [05:35]
Anya Cain
You don't have to download a track of silence. You could just, like, go in your room and not talk, and that would.
- [05:40]
Kevin Greenlee
Be the Kevin holiday experience.
- [05:43]
Anya Cain
That sucks.
- [05:43]
Kevin Greenlee
You're welcome, everybody.
- [05:45]
Anya Cain
You make it sound awful. You're definitely more. More. More quiet in groups. You're. You need to be really comfortable. I feel like in order to kind of put yourself out there in a larger group.
- [05:58]
Kevin Greenlee
But you. You. You're like Molly Brown. You're just unsinkable.
- [06:02]
Anya Cain
Are you kidding me? You don't even like that musical. You're comparing me to the heroine of a musical that you hate?
- [06:09]
Kevin Greenlee
But I'm just saying, everybody loves Molly Brown. She's the life of the party.
- [06:14]
Anya Cain
I. I don't. I don't even know where to go.
- [06:21]
Kevin Greenlee
And don't you think, Anya, if, heaven forbid, if, heaven forbid, you and I are involved in some sort of tragic transportation accident and we're amongst the very few survivors, don't you think your good spirits and wit would enliven everyone's spirits just like hers did?
- [06:40]
Anya Cain
People listening to the show are sitting there being like, what? Has he been listening to the same show as we have? No, I don't. I don't think that. I don't think that the woman extremely prone to depression and freaking out in anxiety would be the best person to be on a lifeboat after the Titanic. I don't think I would be that good in a crisis.
- [07:02]
Kevin Greenlee
There's a potential motto. Murder Sheet. The unsinkable podcast. But why don't we start the episode?
- [07:10]
Anya Cain
Yeah, let's get out of here. My name is Anya Cain. I'm a journalist.
- [07:14]
Kevin Greenlee
And I'm Kevin Greenlee. I'm an attorney.
- [07:17]
Anya Cain
And this is the Murder Sheet.
- [07:19]
Kevin Greenlee
We're a true crime podcast focused on original reporting, interviews, and deep dives into murder cases. We're the Murder sheet.
- [07:26]
Anya Cain
And this is the cheat sheet. Cat candy and concocted confessions. So we're gonna swiftly row away from that Titanic of an introduction and move along to our cases. First up, Indiana, this is an update, and again, we're recording this on November 19th maybe there are updates in the meantime. I apologize if there are. This is just a quick check in on a case we've covered in the past, I believe also on the cheat sheet. So our source for this is Fox59, and this is the murder of Greg Ferency. Greg.
- [08:44]
Kevin Greenlee
Greg Ferency, of course, is one of the detectives who investigated the so called Odinism angle in the deli case.
- [08:52]
Anya Cain
Yes, if you, you know, we, we unfortunately never got the opportunity to talk to Greg Ferency because he was murdered in 2021. It's a, it's a really horrib and something that's really, I think, shaken law enforcement people who knew him. He seems like, by all accounts, a great guy. This is a situation where, yeah, he did investigate the Odinism angle. And we went into a lot of detail on some of that in our book, Shadow of the Bridge, the Deli Murders and the Dark side of the American Heartland. That's a situation where, you know, so if you, if you read that book, you will see his name, you will see some of the stuff he did. You'll kind of maybe get a little bit of a glimpse of his personality. But this, this had nothing to do with that. This had. This occurred on July 7, 2021. A man named Shane Meehan that day arrived at the secured parking lot of a building in Terre Haute where the Federal Bureau of Investigation is based. Now, something about Greg Ferency, he was with the Terre Haute police department for 30 years, but he was also an FBI task force officer. What the FBI does is in order to have the most resources and form cooperative relationships with local law enforcement, they have a task force sort of, you know, history where they'll form a task force, they'll bring in officers like Greg Ferency, and they'll almost imbue them with like, they're kind of federal officers now too, even though they're also local officers. And, and they'll work together on different things. That could be gang violence, that could be drugs, that could be terrorism. In this case, terrorism was the, the one he was on. And, you know, so he was doing that for years. So Meehan is this, like, failed mayoral candidate in the Terre Haute area and also a former, I believe, federal prison guard. Terre Haute. You probably see it in the news a lot when we're talking about executions of people. And the reason for that is Terre Haute has a federal prison where a lot of people get executed. So me. And As a background, July 7, 2021, he arrives at this parking lot, he throws a Molotov cocktail. Pretty shortly afterwards, Greg Ferenci steps out of the FBI building and he. He is shot and he's killed. My understanding, he was. He was. He was shot once, and then I think he was approached by this murderer and shot again, point blank.
- [11:25]
Kevin Greenlee
And there have been, if you follow the Richard Allen case, the case of the Delphi murders, there have been numerous conspiracy theories that Greg Farense's death was somehow related to Delphi, Perhaps he was the man who knew too much and was silenced, or things of that nature. I have seen absolutely zero evidence to lend any credence whatsoever to those theories.
- [11:51]
Anya Cain
I think that there's certain people who just base all of their opinions on that. That case based on vibes. And it's like, oh, I've seen movies where that happens. So that's what I think happened here. I don't need evidence for that. It's just my opinion. It's like, well, your opinion is uninformed and stupid and frankly, insulting to this man's memory. So, yeah, I mean, I think basically trying to tie everything to Deli is a sign that people have too much time on their hands and perhaps need to go expand their horizons, because a lot of things happen. Two people involved in Delphi involved in anything, you know, and you can make a conspiracy theory based on very limited information if you don't have any critical thinking abilities. And that's not appropriate here. So, you know, he. He was killed. Meehan also exchanged gunfire with another law enforcement officer. He fled the scene, and then he was later captured at a Terre Haute hospital where he was getting surgery for his gunshot wounds. So they got him pretty quickly. Now, this case has dragged on for a long time. He was charged with the murder of a federal officer. He was charged with attempted arson of a federal property and using a firearm during a crime that caused death. As you can imagine, we're talking about federal charges here because this was an attack on a federal officer. This was an attack on federal property. And so we're not looking at a local Terre Haute case. We're looking at the federal government stepping in, because that was. That's what happens in these kinds of cases, right? Yes, they have the jurisdiction. It makes sense. I mean, they're. This is one of their own who was killed. This is an attack on our federal government, essentially. So they. The reason this has dragged on, though, is because there have been issues around Meehan's competency to stand trial. When we talk about competency to stand trial, Kevin, can you maybe talk about, like, what does that mean, does that mean someone's insane and therefore not responsible for their actions?
- [13:49]
Kevin Greenlee
You want a person on trial to understand what he or she has been charged with. You want them also to be in a position where they can potentially offer some sort of assistance to their counsel. And so if you, you think a person doesn't reach even those basic bars, you can suggest they're not competent to stand trial.
- [14:11]
Anya Cain
And so it's more about being able to fight your case in trial versus what you were doing at the time of the crime. A famous case of was Lori Valow was incompetent to stand trial, but then she was ultimately tried, found guilty, you know, all of that. So it's less of a statement about whether someone or not is culpable for their actions at the time of the crime, and more about, like, are you in a place where you can help your lawyers answer questions, do what you need to do in order to face this trial? And with Meehan, there's that competency issue. So what the recent development is. And again, this is, this is November 19th. Maybe things will come out or there, there'll be things in between when we're recording this now and next week, but we're just giving everyone an update. The federal prosecutors have filed a motion saying that they want Meehan to be potentially facing the death penalty. So they're, they're filed a motion of intent to seek the death penalty in the United States District Court, Southern District of Indiana, the Terre Haute Division, and they're, they're looking for a death sentence for Shane Meehan for what he did to Greg Ferency and this kind of callous act against a federal law enforcement officer, which I think given the nature of the brutality of the crime and just how senseless it was, is, you know, I'm, I. Regardless of how anyone feels about the death penalty, personally, you know, I think it's understandable why they would be looking for it and maybe for the defense side of things, if there are mental health issues here, which it seems like they're there, that. That has certainly been hinted at with the competency issues. They may be looking at that as far as perhaps, you know, how they can use that as a defense here. Here's the thing, though. He fled the scene and went to the hospital. That doesn't really speak to someone who is in the throes of a psychotic episode necessarily.
- [16:13]
Kevin Greenlee
So you're going. As to the question in your mind is the points you just mentioned indicate that whether or not he's competent to stand trial at a particular time. Certainly the way he acted immediately after the shooting indicates he had a connection to reality.
- [16:28]
Anya Cain
Yes. And that's the big problem. Right. Somebody can be mentally ill. Somebody can even have some kind of psychotic disorder or some kind of mental health disorder that's documented. But if you behave in a way at the time of committing the crime, that shows that you're trying to get away, that you're doing rational things, that you're trying to get away from it, that you're making decisions that make sense and show a level of rationality that's really going to hurt your chances with a not guilty by reason of insanity. You know, like, that's. I mean, and again, I'm not even. I don't know. This man may have had some profound struggles, and perhaps there's evidence to indicate that there was just, you know, some issue at the heart of this that would explain it. But I'm just saying, personally, like, when I look at that, that. Doesn't that sound like that would potentially hurt anyone?
- [17:14]
Kevin Greenlee
I agree. I agree.
- [17:15]
Anya Cain
Yeah, you can't. You can't. Like, I remember in the. In the. I think it was Joseph Corcoran. He was. That was a case where he murdered family members and friends. He put his niece. I may be butchering the story, but he did something like put his young niece, like, upstairs so that she wouldn't be shot. And prosecutors were able to use that to be like, okay, so he was showing mercy to her. He was aware of what he was going to do. It wasn't just a spur. Like, he made a plan, and he knew that he was going to kill them, so he didn't want to kill her, and he put her away. So it was the situation where it was like that. Even though this man had a history of mental illness, they were able to say that shows a level of rationality that kind of throws everything else out the window. This holiday, discover meaningful gifts for everyone on your list at K. Not sure where to start. Our jewelry experts are here to help you find or create the perfect gift in store or online. Book your appointment today and unwrap Love this season only at K. I know.
- [18:14]
Kevin Greenlee
It may be a little controversial. I know many of you will disagree with me on this. I'm not a death penalty guy. I'm not a fan of the death penalty at all. With that said, one potential great use of the death penalty is that it can be used to motivate people to plead out, yes, I have no inside knowledge of this case. I don't know what the strategic decisions are. But I think back to the University of Idaho case, where once the defendant in that case knew he was facing the death penalty, tried like heck, tried like the dickens to get out of facing the death penalty, and then ultimately chose to plead guilty rather than face the possibility of the death penalty. Oftentimes people in that situation will say, oh, I'm facing the possibility of death. I know I did this. There's a good case against me. Maybe I can get some sort of a deal to avoid the death penalty.
- [19:19]
Anya Cain
Yeah. It can be used as a. From a prosecutor's perspective, it can be a tool to get an outcome that you want. It's a. It's something on the negotiating table. And you know, I feel terrible for Ferency's family in this situation because, I mean, this happened in 2021. It's 2025. This has been dragging out for years. So I mean, I imagine that, I mean, that's agony to just have this beholding over your heads for all that time. It's. It's like. And this is why people, families, victims, families talk when they talk to us, they talk about how frustrating this is, how slow the process is. And while we recognize why that is necessary for protecting a defendant's rights, and ultimately the system is based around a defendant's rights, not around anything else, I can imagine that's just really agonizing. And I don't know. I think that's horrible, how slowly this all moves sometimes. That would drive me up the wall.
- [20:16]
Kevin Greenlee
Yeah.
- [20:17]
Anya Cain
So I think we're going to Washington next.
- [20:21]
Kevin Greenlee
Cane train.
- [20:23]
Anya Cain
Oh, Jesus.
- [20:24]
Kevin Greenlee
Gets track to go from the Hoosier state. Is it the Sooner state?
- [20:30]
Anya Cain
No, the Sooner state is Oklahoma.
- [20:32]
Kevin Greenlee
Are we going to Oklahoma?
- [20:34]
Anya Cain
Aren't we going to Washington, as I just said. Oh, you're not listening to your conductor, sir.
- [20:39]
Kevin Greenlee
Oh, I. I was looking at the wrong part of the notes because another part of the notes, it says Oklahoma.
- [20:43]
Anya Cain
No, that's just the way this was written because I did mine first. You're the list up top says Washington. You need to get your train tables memorized.
- [20:54]
Kevin Greenlee
Anya has so many, so many complicated notes, charts.
- [20:59]
Anya Cain
It's at the top of the friggin document. We talked about this, but right now.
- [21:04]
Kevin Greenlee
We were in the middle of the document and.
- [21:06]
Anya Cain
Oh my God, you are. You are not. This is why I'm the conductor. You can't handle it, man. You don't know where we're going. You're lost.
- [21:16]
Kevin Greenlee
Help me.
- [21:17]
Anya Cain
Help me out here sooner. Stay without me. Which we're going there Next.
- [21:21]
Kevin Greenlee
It's a fine place to be.
- [21:23]
Anya Cain
That's fine. I'm just saying we're. We're not there. We're not supposed to be there yet.
- [21:27]
Kevin Greenlee
Oklahoma. Also the great 1943 musical Rogers and Hart.
- [21:31]
Anya Cain
Okay.
- [21:32]
Kevin Greenlee
Nothing wrong with the Sooner State. God bless Oklahoma.
- [21:34]
Anya Cain
Are you gonna sing Oklahoma for us? Sing some selections.
- [21:39]
Kevin Greenlee
This is. We're getting close to Frank Sinatra's birthday as we mentioned last week. Didn't he give a great concert in Norman, Oklahoma in 1986? Those are the things we should be thinking about. Okay, I'm lost. You know the nickname of Washington State?
- [21:53]
Anya Cain
I wanna say Evergreen State. I'm gonna look it up though. Let's see if I'm right or if I'm just humil myself in front of all of the Washingtonians.
- [22:01]
Kevin Greenlee
The Evergreen State. That's Anya's prediction.
- [22:05]
Anya Cain
Let's. That is my prediction. Washington.
- [22:08]
Kevin Greenlee
Washington State. Nickname. The Evergreen State.
- [22:12]
Anya Cain
The Evergreen State. That's the unofficial nickname.
- [22:15]
Kevin Greenlee
The unofficial nickname.
- [22:17]
Anya Cain
I don't know. All right, let's. Let's move along. But it is. I was right. I did it.
- [22:23]
Kevin Greenlee
See, Anya is quite the scholar of state motto.
- [22:27]
Anya Cain
God.
- [22:29]
Kevin Greenlee
So this. My source for this is ABC News. It involves a very, very sad case. It involves teen suicide. So. And I know we mentioned suicide at the top of the show. I'm going to mention it again here. A 13 year old boy named Jay Taylor. I had some loving parents, Colby and Leslie Taylor. Jay had some struggles in his life. You know, some of the stuff that Jay was going through happened during COVID where we all felt a little bit isolated and Jay certainly had that. Jay also had some gender identity issues he was struggling with to work through and that also made him feel even more lonely. He was in the midst of a gender transition when these events happened. He also had some anorexia issues, began cutting himself, really having some tough time.
- [23:42]
Anya Cain
Oh my God, that's so sad.
- [23:45]
Kevin Greenlee
So I feel a lot of compassion for Jay. His parents limited him to one hour a day on his computer. So one thing they didn't realize is that that hour would reset at midnight. So in other words, if you get on your computer at 11pm instead of the computer time ending at midnight, it would extend until 1am so that would be like a two hour situation. And so on one very unfortunate day, Jay interacts with some people from a group called 764-which-is an online group which is known for harassing and tormenting people. And what this group did was they tormented and manipulated Jay into committing suicide.
- [24:50]
Anya Cain
Oh my God.
- [24:52]
Kevin Greenlee
And his Parents, understandably, are outraged. There's really not any laws in this country that really deal with this sort of behavior effectively. They want such laws to be passed. They feel that some of these social media platforms need to take more responsibility for how their platforms are going to be used. And what do you think?
- [25:25]
Anya Cain
So this perpetrator who. So Jay is, is manipulated. Sounds like they were also, like, bullying and misgendering him and. Right, yeah. So they were pushing Jay towards suicide.
- [25:42]
Kevin Greenlee
Yes.
- [25:43]
Anya Cain
And this perpetrator is a medical student in Germany.
- [25:46]
Kevin Greenlee
Yes.
- [25:47]
Anya Cain
At least that was one of the persons leading the charge.
- [25:50]
Kevin Greenlee
Yeah.
- [25:50]
Anya Cain
I think people who do this should be under the jail. I mean, I'll just say that, like, I, I. This is so evil. Yeah, this is so evil. This group, seven, six, four or whatever. I mean, it's, it's basically like, Right, isn't it like a, like it's a group of pedophiles who go after vulnerable teenagers and children in particular online, push them to harm others, push them to harm themselves, push them to do all this. They are basically, I think one of the FBI agents quoted in this article talks about they basically want the destruction of society and the end of the world. Like, it's very apocalyptic as far as a group goes. So, yeah, I think anyone involved in that, in hurting this young person should suffer the consequences. I mean, it's evil.
- [26:40]
Kevin Greenlee
Yeah. Jay had been really subject to terrible treatment by this group and manipulated to take his life. And it's hard because we value free speech in this country. And whenever you want to pass laws that potentially infringe on free speech, that's something you have to put a lot of thought and care into, because it's one. Isn't our Bill of Rights just like the Second Amendment is in our Bill of Rights? But that doesn't mean you can't do something.
- [27:12]
Anya Cain
I think that online speech in many ways is the same as speech in real life. You know, I mean, if I'm coming to your house and encroaching on your space and screaming at you to kill yourself over and over again, you know, that should be taken seriously. And also, I mean, it's, it's not lost on me that this person, Jay, he was vulnerable. He was dealing with a lot of stuff. He was dealing with a crisis in his life, and he felt. Sounded like he was feeling some hope about life, but he was also, you know, had some of these struggles. So it's like they took a child, A, a child dealing with all of this.
- [27:55]
Kevin Greenlee
Yeah.
- [27:55]
Anya Cain
And I also think there should be like, civil liability around stuff like this. I mean, I think, like, you know.
- [28:01]
Kevin Greenlee
And I. I give credit to his parents both for how they dealt with Jay and loved Jay during his life, because by all accounts, they were. They were supportive of Jay's gender identity becoming what Jay wanted it to. To be. And I know a lot of parents in that situation may not be that supportive. They took Jay to get help. They limited Jay's computer time. They were really, really involved and doing everything they could for their son, and they deserved to be applauded for that, for doing what they could to help Jay through his complicated struggles in life. And they also deserve a lot of praise for speaking up about this now, because, let's be honest, when parents in these sorts of situations talk about these things publicly, there is. They're certainly subjecting themselves to criticism from people in the wider world because people love to second guess and be critical of people.
- [29:12]
Anya Cain
I think there's an instinctive reaction to do that, and I understand it because, like, we all want to think this couldn't happen to my family. So you say, okay, well, they should have taken away his computer or they should have done this or they should have done that. But the thing is, it's just. I mean, it's not helpful. I mean, obviously they did not know that this was going on. And I think a lot of people who are not aware that they. I mean, I. I was aware of this group. I think you were. I don't think a lot of people are aware about this stuff. You don't think, oh, there's a group out there that's, like, trying to get kids to kill themselves? Like, I mean, like, no. Like, no one's sitting. Like, it's just so beyond the pale that it's just not something on a lot of people's radars. So it's really easy for us to say, of course, take away all of their devices and don't lock your kids up. And they're never, you know, but, like, that's not realistic, first of all. But a lot of people just don't even know how bad it is. And it sounds like they were making efforts, but they were trying to trust Jay and let him do, you know, like, some things on his computer. And it's just they. They couldn't have imagined the darkness out there.
- [30:09]
Kevin Greenlee
And they were supporting Jay through the gender transition.
- [30:12]
Anya Cain
Yeah, I mean, they were trying to be there for him. You know, this. This person in Germany, you know, he's not even being named because of German privacy laws. Did you know that. Yeah, yeah. Interesting. Is, is there in terms of like, are there like America? I guess, like, how do I say this without sounding really dumb? Obviously he was carrying out this campaign of terror against a young man like remotely from Germany. The victim is in America. Is this a situation where he's only going to be charged in Germany or is this a situation where he could be also extradited?
- [30:50]
Kevin Greenlee
I, I'm not sure if under current laws what exactly he could be charged with here.
- [30:56]
Anya Cain
I think, I think there's, I think there's room to, you know, certainly respect the First Amendment, but deal with some of these kind of terroristic groups that are in trying to incite violence within American society. Whether it's self inflicted violence in this case, but also I've, I've read about cases where it's like people trying to encourage children to shoot up their schools. I think that needs to be dealt with seriously, with the seriousness it deserves. And I think, you know, you can carve out exceptions here. You know, you certainly don't have freedom of speech if you're trying to. I mean, like if I, if someone tries to arrange a crime and all they're doing is talking to a hitman, is that a violation of freedom of speech? All I was doing was saying, hey, I'd like to have you kill my wife. You know, I mean, that's not protected.
- [31:45]
Kevin Greenlee
No, this is what, why I say freedom of speech is one of our constitutional rights. It's incredibly important, but doesn't mean there can't be limits to it such as that. What if I'm going to fill out a government record for my like, driver's license? Can I say I have the freedom of speech to give false information to the government about my identity? I have the freedom of speech to use a fake Social Security? No, of course not. There's always limits.
- [32:12]
Anya Cain
No, yeah, I, I think, I think people who hurt kids should be under the jail. I'll just say that that's just my belief in life. You can disagree with it, you know, you can agree with it. I don't care that whether that's directly or in this case, more indirectly, that's just, I think this needs to be prosecuted to the fullest extent. And I think that social media environments, we should be. I think as a person, I've gone from thinking of social media environments as just sort of this like neutral thing where like, okay, whatever happens, happens to thinking that we have effectively allowed billionaires and companies worth billions of dollars to hijack our media environment, hijack our brains Hijack our children. And these companies are enriching themselves on the backs of stories like this and stories where people are being hurt, society is being uprooted and caused to become more destabilized and people are being pitted against each other, whether that's based on race or politics or whatever, because of the choices of these companies that are seeking to enrich themselves through ad revenue. And I think they should be treated with all harshness and left open for, you know, extreme civil liabilities.
- [33:38]
Kevin Greenlee
In my opinion, the family feels that discord really played a major role in their child's death by not having better controls. More moderation. They really want there to be more moderation of some of these social media groups.
- [33:55]
Anya Cain
There obviously should be, but that would hurt their bottom line. So they don't want to do it.
- [34:01]
Kevin Greenlee
I think the power of the consumer can come into play here. And if and when there are social media platforms that do have better moderation, maybe we should just all flock to those.
- [34:12]
Anya Cain
I mean, it's easy to say, but at the same time, I mean, I think regulation would be something. I mean, you can't ask people who are powerful and rich to just do the right thing. They've made it clear again and again in this country that they're not going to. And all around the world, frankly, you know, this is a situation where, you know, force needs to be brought into this. I mean, it's unacceptable. It's unacceptable. This is not an, this is not a one off, right? I mean, like if this was just one operation, this weird freak in, in Germany, this medical student doing this randomly, then I could understand like, okay, well who else would be this sick? There's a group, there's like a. Literally they have a name, they're identified, they've been connected to all these different things. And this is just happening on Discord. And Discord you know, is, you know, just that that's what they've allowed to happen. So it, we can't look at this as a neutral thing where it would just happen anyways. It wouldn't. I mean, this is, this is on the social media platforms that are breeding this. You know, like if, if a bunch of, if a bunch of like, I don't know, criminals start hanging out at my house and I'm like providing them shelter and they can come in and they can do whatever and they can get drunk and they can go crazy and then they shoot a kid outside. You know, like I brought them in here, you know, like we, like, I'm not like whatever criminal charges Whatever. Maybe I'm not responsible in a criminal sense, but, like, morally speaking, I brought them into this situation. We need to be looking at these social media platforms with a lot more criticism and letting them off the hook less. I think as a society, I'm not even saying legally. I'm just saying as a society, as parents, as people who are using them, we need to be very critical about this and be looking at, you know, what they're doing and what they're not doing and what they're choosing not to do.
- [36:03]
Kevin Greenlee
I agree. And again, I offer my deepest consult. Condolences to the parents, Colby and Leslie Taylor, and also my deep respect. They obviously loved their child very, very much. And what they're doing now by trying to raise awareness of the issue, to me, is another manifestation of the love for their child.
- [36:24]
Anya Cain
Yeah, I agree. I really feel bad for Jay. He sounds like a nice kid who was just going through some stuff. And, you know, a lot of kids go through some stuff in their early teens or in their teens, and then they can kind of, you know, get it together if they have the opportunity and they can, you know, have the chance to grow up and be okay. Right. I mean, a lot of kids that go through depression or mental health episodes or whatever, they're figuring out who they are, they're figuring out this or that, and he just never got that chance because he met the wrong people online. And that's just appalling, and it makes me so sad for him and his family.
- [36:54]
Kevin Greenlee
I agree. I think it's time to move on to the next case. I wanted to do the Oklahoma case a little bit sooner. So that's why I like to call Oklahoma the Sooner.
- [37:04]
Anya Cain
Oh, is that one of your inventions? I see. So Oklahoma, my sources were newspapers.com, specifically the Tulsa World, the Daily Oklahoman, the Sepulpa Daily Herald, and the Associated Press, as well as KTL. I'm sorry, KTUL and news on six. So let's go back to Saturday, July 19, 1997. Todd Sanseverino was 32 years old. He was an oil field worker living in Hominy, Oklahoma. So that night around 11:40pm he was visiting a house in Sand Springs, Oklahoma, according to Crime Stoppers. And around that time, Tulsa county sheriff's deputies get a call. Someone's been shot. They go to the house in Sand Springs. They find Todd has been shot once in the chest and he's pronounced dead at the scene. This house was owned by a woman named Angie Cutnose. Witnesses say that there was an accident and she shot Todd in the chest. Seems pretty straightforward. She's jailed that night. She apparently tells at some point investigators that she had accidentally shot the victim while showing him a gun that he wanted to look at. Then things get a little more complicated. Late Sunday, Cut knows his fiance, Eugene matteo Gomez, who's 30, comes in. He wants to talk to investigators, and then he proceeds to confess to the deputies. He said he shot Todd and then fled the residence. He said Todd owed him 50 bucks and he was just trying to scare him, but shot him. Then after he shot him, he cleaned the handgun with a kitchen towel. Told witnesses to act like it was just an accident. He's charged with first degree murder and Cut Nose is released. She's listed as a material witness in the case, though. Then later on, the merger charge is dismissed because Gomez, it turns out, said he falsely confessed, confessed to the detectives to protect Cut Nose. It's like, what? Apparently assistant public defender Richard Clark says Gomez wanted to help her by getting her out of prison so she jail rather so she could care for her children. Gomez in total spent two months in jail. He's released. Cut Nose apparently again admits that she, not Gomez, was involved with the death. Then her story is San Severino was going to sell her a.22 caliber handgun, or rather not sell her. It's like she. He was going to sell for her this.22 caliber handgun. She wanted the money in advance before she would hand it over. Somehow this leads to an accident where he shot. Around this time, she's also hit with an unrelated embezzlement charge. Nothing happens. Nothing happens from them there. For, for, for. From 1997 onward to 1998, nothing happens. Now, in recent years, apparently the Tulsa County Sheriff's Office cold case task force focused on this case. And they, based on more conversations with witnesses, found new information that led to recent charges being filed against angie Cutnose. She's 62 years old, and she was just arrested for first degree murder. San Sanvarino's mother, Janie Martindale, told News Channel 8 that she was arrested on her son's birthday. He would have been 61. What do you think it took so long in this case?
- [40:16]
Kevin Greenlee
It's always hard to say when you're not on the inside of the investigation.
- [40:19]
Anya Cain
Yeah, I'm really baffled that, you know, I get that Gomez messed things up in the beginning by sort of saying, no, I did it, but I mean, it sounded like they had her on multiple occasions indicating that she shot him. Maybe she was saying it was an accident. Maybe witnesses now Say it was murder, but, like, it seems like they've known what happened to a certain extent from the jump. And I just really. I. Based on the media reports, I can't really figure out heads or tails of why this is only happening now. But there might be some very good reasons that it didn't happen until now. There might be some not so good reasons. I just don't know. But I just thought it was interesting because it usually doing the research answers my questions where I'm like, oh, okay, that makes sense. With this. I'm like, I don't. I don't know. Weird. Very weird.
- [41:10]
Kevin Greenlee
Very weird.
- [41:12]
Anya Cain
Now we're going to New York.
- [41:14]
Kevin Greenlee
My source for this is the New York Times. Sometimes on this program, Ms. Kane, is kind of a moral statement. We will refrain from mentioning the name of the defendant. I think earlier today, I referred to the University of Idaho case, and you said, let's not mention the name of that person because we don't want to afford them whatever dignity or attention they get from. From that. Is that fair to say?
- [41:39]
Anya Cain
The Romans called it damnatio memori. It's when they would basically obliterate any mention of someone. Usually that was because they fell out of power in terms of the imperial court or whatever. But we should do it in terms of just people who are terrible.
- [41:53]
Kevin Greenlee
I think I'm gonna do it in this case partly for those reasons and partly because I have no idea how to pronounce this man's name.
- [42:02]
Anya Cain
Kevin.
- [42:03]
Kevin Greenlee
I went and I looked up some video stories about him online, and I got to see plenty of people struggling with this name. Do you want to try?
- [42:12]
Anya Cain
No, I don't. I think we should demnish him and mori him.
- [42:15]
Kevin Greenlee
Yeah.
- [42:16]
Anya Cain
So not just because of the name, though. No one knows how to pronounce my name. That's not a good reason for doing damnation memoria. It's because he did something. He was doing something terrible.
- [42:25]
Kevin Greenlee
I just believe in being honest with the listeners, and I have no idea how to pronounce this name.
- [42:30]
Anya Cain
Jesus Christ, Kevin.
- [42:32]
Kevin Greenlee
It starts with a ch. There's lots of K's and V's.
- [42:36]
Anya Cain
Just, well, we can move on. That's not a good reason to not mention someone's name.
- [42:42]
Kevin Greenlee
His online name that he liked to use was Commander Butcher. And this is a person who had a group which really did its best to inspire violence around the world against people of different racial and ethnic backgrounds. It inspired, for instance, a school shooting in Tennessee, inspired a murder of a woman in Romania, inspired a mass stabbing in Turkey and Most recently, this person and his group had an idea in 2023 to have someone dress as Santa Claus in New York City and hand out poisoned candy to Jewish kids.
- [43:36]
Anya Cain
Jesus Christ.
- [43:38]
Kevin Greenlee
And his intent was to kill as many Jewish kids as he could. He said he wanted this attack to be bigger than another attack. And in that attack, 77 people died. So he was hoping to kill more than 77 children with poisoned candy on Christmas. And in any case, he has now admitted to this. He has pled guilty and is going to be facing sentencing. Just a terrible story.
- [44:12]
Anya Cain
That was an evil group of people. So he was. They were talking about. Apparently he told an undercover FBI agent that they were going to possibly use ricin.
- [44:20]
Kevin Greenlee
Yeah.
- [44:20]
Anya Cain
Wow. That is so evil. This was an like. Like, I. I just don't even. This is. This is. Again, this is online. I mean, this is like they're. They're. Yeah.
- [44:30]
Kevin Greenlee
Both the cases I looked at today dealt with largely online components as well.
- [44:35]
Anya Cain
So this group was coordinating online. This group was actually having success in at least inspiring.
- [44:44]
Kevin Greenlee
They even had some kind of a scoring system and, you know, you'd get points or something for, you know, especially brutal crimes.
- [44:52]
Anya Cain
I mean, this is having a real world impact. People are losing their lives because of this. It's not just some, like, random thing, act of God that's happening. It's not like these people are all just meeting up at, you know, Ruby Tuesdays and going over this. They're meeting online. That's how they're finding each other in the first place. I mean, the Internet brings people together. It also brings evil people together. It's not just nice people who are care about knitting or, you know, posting videos of cats. It's about people who want to do evil, are deeply racist and anti Semitic and want to hurt, you know, Jewish people or. Or any minority group that they want to target. Like, this is incredibly serious and. And it should be taken incredibly seriously. And so he was. Was busted and he pled guilty, it sounds like.
- [45:43]
Kevin Greenlee
Yeah, he played. He's admitted he's pled guilty in a court in Brooklyn. Our old stomping grounds.
- [45:50]
Anya Cain
Our old stomping grounds. Yes. Well, I mean, that's. That's good, but it's like it. I don't know, it's like this is just run amok, you know, and now it's like people again. Like, obviously a lot of this was within America, right? Within the United States, people are doing this. But it's also like, now with the globalized world and with. With Internet, you know, bringing everyone Together. You don't even have to be in the United States to be doing this stuff. You know, I've heard of cases where it's like, you have scammers in Africa who are calling kids and then threatening to leak their nudes if they don't, you know, give them a certain amount of money in a certain amount of time and basically pushing them to suicide. So, like, all of this stuff, I mean, it's good to see there being charges brought against someone like this, but, like, all of this stuff needs to be taken incredibly seriously, and there needs to be an awareness that radicalism, violent radicalism online, even. Even radicalism. That doesn't make any sense. I think we all know about Neo Nazism, right? Yes, we know about this. Extreme violence and hatred of anyone that they, quote, you know, undesirable. Meanwhile, I think it's safe to say that the Nazis themselves are the undesirable ones. I mean, these are people who are just evil. I mean, we've all known. I mean, that, you know, it's. It's just despicable worldview. But there's also ones like the 7, 6, 4 thing where it's, like, what that does. No one's ever heard of that. That just doesn't even make any sense. But, you know, you have these people who just find each other. I mean, it's what an unhinged plant plot to, like, hurt children. I mean, just like. I mean, where do these people come from? Like, how do you. How do you develop that much hatred for anybody that you want to hurt kids just because of who they are or their backgrounds? I just, like. I just don't even. Like, I don't even understand that. Like, I don't. And I don't. Like. I don't know. It's just. It's sick.
- [47:48]
Kevin Greenlee
Yeah, it's very upsetting. So I think that's it for that one, right?
- [47:54]
Anya Cain
Yeah, that is it. Well, yeah.
- [48:00]
Kevin Greenlee
Week from tomorrow, we will. On December 6, we will be at the Indiana Historical Society.
- [48:08]
Anya Cain
On your birthday.
- [48:09]
Kevin Greenlee
On my birthday, I'll be turning 35. Yeah. Finally be old enough to qualify for the presidency.
- [48:20]
Anya Cain
Now you're lying on your own podcast, though. We're supposed to be ethical.
- [48:26]
Kevin Greenlee
Well, I may be a little older, but would you say I'm 35 at heart?
- [48:30]
Anya Cain
Yeah, I'd say you're definitely. You're 25 at heart.
- [48:34]
Kevin Greenlee
We're like, 12, eight. I'm a very childish man, very immature man.
- [48:40]
Anya Cain
Oh, you're very immature. I love you very much. You're a delightful you have a boyish impudence, but you also are very serious and thoughtful.
- [48:48]
Kevin Greenlee
Yes. And then December 12, of course, is Frank Sinatra's birthday.
- [48:52]
Anya Cain
Oh, what are you going to be doing to ring that in?
- [48:56]
Kevin Greenlee
We have to figure out something special for ourselves and the listeners for Frank Sinatra's birthday. Don't you think that's a special day?
- [49:03]
Anya Cain
Are you going to do, like, karaoke to Frank Sinatra songs or something? Treat us all to that?
- [49:07]
Kevin Greenlee
No, I would do something respectful. You don't need to hear someone else do a Frank Sinatra song because recordings exist of him doing them. You know what I'm saying?
- [49:20]
Anya Cain
Yeah, I do. I'm. I'm with you, man. I don't. I. I don't really care for cover bands. I mean, I. No, no shade to anyone who likes that. I just. That's not what I'm. That's not what I'm looking for. And I. We do have recordings of some of those bands, and we can enjoy them at our leisure.
- [49:36]
Kevin Greenlee
Enjoy them in the privacy of our own home.
- [49:38]
Anya Cain
Yes, exactly. Away from prying eyes, as is intended.
- [49:44]
Kevin Greenlee
Free country.
- [49:45]
Anya Cain
Well.
- [49:48]
Kevin Greenlee
I'm feeling a really laugh because for a while we did the stories at the end. That was like a natural way to end the show.
- [49:53]
Anya Cain
And we lost. Then we. We've had so little life experience and we're such losers that we, like, ran out of anecdotes. How embarrassing.
- [49:59]
Kevin Greenlee
Well, the whole thing. The whole thing about. We were just going to do that during the promotion. Maybe we should get back to stories or something because it feels now the. The slows just kind of awkward trailing off.
- [50:08]
Anya Cain
I mean, do I have any stories that I. I forced you to tell your home invasion story last time. Although home invasion is a little extreme for what you experience, frankly.
- [50:17]
Kevin Greenlee
It was your description.
- [50:18]
Anya Cain
I know, I know. I'm. I'm correcting it. Correcting it. So did I ever tell you a story that you were like, Ah, yes. I'm. I'm enchanted and awed by this.
- [50:29]
Kevin Greenlee
That's never happened.
- [50:30]
Anya Cain
I know. Oh, I'll tell my story about what happened to me at Penn Station. Do you remember that?
- [50:37]
Kevin Greenlee
Me? The restaurant, Penn Station. Did you get, like, a good sandwich?
- [50:42]
Anya Cain
What are you talking about? Are you.
- [50:44]
Kevin Greenlee
Is there a food chain called Penn Station?
- [50:47]
Anya Cain
Why would they name it after. I'm talking about the place in New York City.
- [50:51]
Kevin Greenlee
Oh, I think I know what you're talking about.
- [50:52]
Anya Cain
The actual train station.
- [50:53]
Kevin Greenlee
Why don't you tell that anecdote?
- [50:54]
Anya Cain
Why would they name. Here's a question. Why the hell would they name a food place after that, it's not a good place to be. Penn Station was once a beautiful, magnificent creation, akin to Grand Central, but they tore it down to make Madison Square Garden. And frankly, they should not have done that. So what happened to me at Penn Station was I was going to take a train back to my college because apparently it sounds like something someone in, like, the early 1900s would have done, but I would often take the train, just prefer to flying, and it's cheaper. So I'm gonna take the train to Virginia. And I got. For some reason, I had the president of our college on the phone because I wanted to get a quote on something I wanted to do, like a feature story or there was something, and I could barely hear because it's literally, we're in Penn Station. I'm if. In case you haven't picked up on this, but I am terrible at time management. So I think that's how this happened. How I happened to be, like, trying to do an important interview on the phone at Penn Station. And finally, the press guy for the college was like, anya, like, no one can hear each other. Why don't we just reschedule this for when you get in? I was like, fine, whatever. So we did it later. But I'm distracted, and I'm juggling all this stuff. I have a paper bag. In my paper bag is a bagel, poppy seed, cream cheese. That's all I need. We don't need to get crazy here. And a Snapple. Just a plain Snapple. That's my go to breakfast. And at. At some point, I'm juggling that. I've opened the Snapple. I took a sip, closed it, put it back in the bag, the bag's on the ground, and. And it's just kind of chaos. At one point, this gentleman who worked at Penn Station, I. I don't know exactly what his position was. He is literally on a microphone. He's trying to get people to clear the way. So he's like, excuse me. Like, people move back here. Don't come over here. Everyone get in line over here. He's trying to direct things. Very authoritative. Has a pleasant sense of humor about him, too. I think he was kind of making some jokes on his microphone. Like he's doing standup or something, but he's trying to get everyone to move. And so I see him coming towards me, and I crouch over to pick up my brown paper bag off the floor with my food in it, and I knock it over. And as I knock it over, I realize, oh, no, I Did not tighten that Snapple lid tight enough because I'm starting to see brown liquid seep from this paper bag on the floor. And I'm mortified. And this is. As this man is approaching me, and he's like, okay, ma', am, you need to move to. Is that beer on the microphone in front of all of Penn Station. And I'm like, turn completely bright red. I'm like, no, no, no. It's Snapple. And I pull it out, and he's like, okay. Sorry about that. Of course, he doesn't say that on the microphone. So then I. And then everyone's looking at me. And again, it looks like the classic, like, brown paper bag have a bottle of beer or some liquor in there that I'm, like, surreptitiously drinking. Now, at this point, I did have a drinking problem, but I was wrongfully accused in this situation. It's like, it's 8am I'm not drinking beer at Penn Station. Everyone. I felt like everyone in Penn Station was looking at me like, oh, my God, This. This woman has a really serious problem. And I was really embarrassed.
- [54:12]
Kevin Greenlee
So I like this because the story I told last week was. Was me squaring off against armed marauders.
- [54:19]
Anya Cain
Oh, please.
- [54:20]
Kevin Greenlee
And with you, you just, like, drop things, get publicly humiliated. That sounds about right.
- [54:24]
Anya Cain
You could have saved your neighbor's belongings and peace of mind, and you did nothing.
- [54:29]
Kevin Greenlee
I think there's a button. But before you push it, maybe for dinner tonight, we go out to Penn Station.
- [54:34]
Anya Cain
Or maybe we could forget about it, but. Yeah.
- [54:37]
Kevin Greenlee
Oh, it's a restaurant that was started in Cincinnati, Ohio.
- [54:40]
Anya Cain
I know there's a lot of Penn Stations around the country. That's, like, a common name, but. Yeah, I'm not super aware of that. Frankly, I don't really want to eat at a Penn Station after what happened to me after I tried to eat at the real Penn Station.
- [54:53]
Kevin Greenlee
So now, because of your careless, loose talk, we will never be sponsored by the Pen Station restaurant.
- [55:01]
Anya Cain
I've never tried it, so I try it. I'm sure I'd like it. I'm sure it's fine. I don't. I don't know anything about it, and I. I'm open to any sponsorships.
- [55:10]
Kevin Greenlee
I'm just saying that you're Penn Station curious. You're a little tantal, Maybe a little scared, but a little tantalized. Is that fair to say?
- [55:20]
Anya Cain
You're the worst.
- [55:23]
Kevin Greenlee
Why'd you hit the buttons?
- [55:24]
Anya Cain
Yeah, let's get the hell out of here. Let's get on a train.
- [55:27]
Kevin Greenlee
Thanks so much for listening to the Murder Sheet. If you have a tip concerning one of the cases we cover, please email us@murdersheetmail.com if you have actionable information about an unsolved crime, please report it to the appropriate authorities.
- [55:47]
Anya Cain
If you're interested in joining our Patreon, that's available at www.patreon.com murdersheet if you want to tip us a bit of money for records requests, you can do so at www. Buymeacoffee.com murdersheet we very much appreciate any support.
- [56:11]
Kevin Greenlee
Special thanks to Kevin Tyler Greenlee who composed the music for the Murder Sheet and who you can find on the web@kevintg.com if you're looking to talk with.
- [56:22]
Anya Cain
Other listeners about a case we've covered, you can join the Murder Sheet Discussion group on Facebook. And we mostly focus our time on research and reporting so we're not on social media much. We do try to check our email account, but we ask for patience as we often receive a lot of messages. Thanks again for listening. We've run into some pretty creepy people in our true crime journey and we've even gotten some threats as a result. Safety is often top of mind for Kevin and I.
- [56:51]
Kevin Greenlee
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Anya Cain
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- [57:43]
Kevin Greenlee
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- [58:06]
Anya Cain
Right now my listeners can save 50% on a SimpliSafe home security system at simplisafe.com msheet that's simplisafe.com msheet there's no safe like Simplisafe. Big news. Way Bear's Black Friday sale is here right now. Score up to 80% off everything home. These are our best deals of the year. Shop Wayfair's Black Friday sale now at wayfair.
- [58:33]
Kevin Greenlee
Com.
- [58:34]
Anya Cain
Wayfair Every style, every home.